Infantino finished? Mourinho's Madrid & Iraola's Liverpool challenge

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1:55Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. FIFA's plan to sell the World Cup has been scrapped, but what now for their under-pressure president Gianni Infantino? On today's show we'll be discussing the latest on the biggest story of the year, we'll also hear about Real Madrid's busy summer and begin our Premier League preview by picking the teams which are exciting, intriguing and worrying. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham, it's Tom Ornott, and the former Millwall, Chelsea and Marseille striker Tony Cascarino.

2:34Team, we're back! We will not start podding, it doesn't matter. Who needs Gregor Robertson? Who cares if he's on holiday? We're still here. And Alison and Tom, what a treat it is to be back in this studio just a couple of days on from debating the end of football and the plans have been scrapped. Fantastic stuff. I think it started with this podcast. I'm only joking. It started with Martin Ziegler, our chief sports reporter. But, Tom, it's good news, isn't it? It's great news, isn't it? I mean, I think we were all slightly sceptical. Yeah. I remember I ended our show saying, come on, let's have some hope.

3:05I thought it was all over. But I think we sort of said that the way out, in a way, was for UEFA's, you know, all the countries to pull together, you know, the main nations in UEFA and as a bloc, you know, very powerful you can't have a world cup without england and france and spain and and i think that letter that that union of those countries coming together last week was the was the starting gun i think on on what we've seen since you know and it was a bad plan you know it was a bad plan and i think ultimately it's still we all have a sort of very kind of cynical view i think of where football is kind of going but it's kind of heartening i think to see that when there is something as bad as this that still the main stakeholders in the game will react and put it right.

3:45It's quite striking as well, the people within FIFA who were reacting against this, weren't they? His chief operating officers and his advisors, as I discussed with Martin Ziegler on a special show on Friday. It really was just a shambolically put together plan, never mind the fact that the world of football didn't like it and wasn't on board with it. Even the people within FIFA. Tony, you've played at World Cups. Relieved to hear once these plans were scrapped? Well, I was so shocked on Tuesday when it came out. By Friday, it felt like it was dead in the water so quickly. And you think, did you not ask certain people what their vote, even though I have a real issue sometimes with federations, how they represent themselves.

4:25I mean, with the Republic of Ireland, the FAI had some very difficult times and many others. And I do look at football sometimes and think, do they really read the room well? And it was a clear case of no. And expanding the World Cup was one thing, but taking it to a new direction. It was interesting because you met UEFA, but also the Asian vote went pretty quickly against FIFA as well. Because it's so like politics, we don't mix politics and sport. Well, the last World Cup feels it was the most political, even though I actually remind myself that many years ago, there was loads of political World Cups.

5:00And we're here now. I mean, the next step is, Daddy's survived. Yeah. That's the only question left. Yeah, absolutely. On the Times website now, the English FA is to write to Gianni Infantino withdrawing his letter of support for his re-election as FIFA president. That follows UEFA doing a similar thing, saying no longer have faith in Infantino. Someone who said that long, long before anyone else was Alison Rudd, the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist. She's taken down Gianni several times in the past couple of days, Alison. But it's true. I mean, part of what is so compelling a case for him to no longer be FIFA president is those within FIFA who said this plan is a shambles, isn't it?

5:42Yeah, I mean, people who've worked very closely with him, I mean, really closely with him. Yeah, we've seen your advisors. He came out and said this was just the most ridiculous plan. The cynic in me feels like a part of their criticism of Infantino is that they were kept in the dark. And you kind of think it'd be interesting if you could go back in time and Infantino had included more of his colleagues in his plan. It seemed very misjudged from Infantino's point of view to be quite so secretive. It's like he only cared about the investors in the World Cup, not the backdrop to it. So he was very foolish.

6:20But yes, given the invective that has been levelled against him from people who work with him very closely, know him very well, have not stood up for him, the Infantino. The entirety of UEFA have said he's a fool and can't be trusted. It's almost bizarre that he hasn't resigned yet. The only way he can scramble any vestige of self-respect going forward, so that when we talk about him in 10, 20 years' time, would be if he resigned now with a letter just apologising for a gross error of misjudgment and he wishes his successor well. but it feels like he's going to cling on because there are member associations who like what he's done.

7:08When you talk about expanding the World Cup, Tony, that's good for those nations who wouldn't normally get that. They like that. They've liked his support since he was appointed in 2016. They've liked the fact he has reached out to the smaller nations, particularly in Africa and Asia, and given them hope that they can be involved in the World Cup, And, you know, you could argue it's a bit of a closed shop, the greatest show on earth. It's a bit of a closed shop. So saying let's expand it and so on, that has resonated with some FAs across the globe. And I think, you know, he's probably hearing what he wants to hear and he can hear that some people still quite like his approach to how you run the world game.

7:53But overall, he's the Cruella de Vil of football, isn't he? And he, I mean, as unloved as it's possible to be by the vast majority, he really, ah, he has to fall on his sword. I mean, Alison says foolish about, you know, not including other officials. I think as well as just kind of plain arrogance, right? It just sort of strikes of a man, I think, who in the last couple of years has just drunk all of his own Kool-Aid, right? Like he spent a lot of time rubbing shoulders with Trump, with, you know, Vladimir Putin, like with, you know, some of the biggest kind of, you know, people in the world.

8:24Celebrities, Cristiano Ronaldo, hanging out at the White House. I think he just sort of has lost all sights of actually what his role is, which is to represent the game, which is to be the figurehead, yes, of a very important governing body. But that is it. You know, it's not a dictatorship. It's not the Infantino show. And we saw so much of that during the World Cup that he felt it was his own show. And it's not. See, there's some respects there's other things, even little things that happened along the way. You know, when Ronaldo got sent off from Ireland and had a two-match ban, he was allowed to come back and play in the World Cup.

8:55And we saw it with Balogun as well. where he wasn't allowed to play and then suddenly plays again. There were things that were irritating certain members. Where are we going? It feels like one rule for one and completely different for others. It's a real tough one. And as Alison alluded to, what happens here is going to – I think it will go slow now. It was really fast from Tuesday to Friday and where we are today. I think it will be a slow thing, especially if he doesn't step down. Because the type of character we're talking about, he's going to think – I know we've talked about being mixed with Trump, but he might think he's a Trump-like figure of going, well, I can win them over again, whatever I do.

9:30Yeah, really interesting. Remember to clip that up when I'm joining you again at the break for an update that Gianni Infantino has gone, which is what happened on last Thursday's show and with a special with Martin Ziegler on Friday. Just to update you, the latest on the Times website now, UEFA has sent Infantino a legal letter from its United States-based lawyers warning it is considering legal action and warning all documents and information related to the plan must be preserved. so the sense that you know let's make sure we not don't just throw away what was put out here and what was the suggestions here and just as a final note taking your point allison and tom's about looping people in it was striking you know allison we went on our sister podcaster story to kind of explain this in more detail and reading through all the statements the amount of statements that referenced how badly put together the plan was there was lots of people who said this is a bad plan but there was as much of people going why didn't you tell us why didn't you tell us So you do wonder whether there's a case for going, oh, well, we could get this through, but we need to go about it differently.

10:29We shouldn't, without wanting to be the cynic, you shouldn't get carried away that this plan is completely dead and buried and off the table forever. But this is exactly what happened with the European Super League. That was killed off very quickly because the fans, I don't think the clubs that thought they could break away realised just that the fans would mobilise as quickly and as vociferously as they did. And the owners of those clubs did not like suddenly being painted as unpopular. So, you know, it's like a domino effect. Chelsea went, they all went. But it was considered to be parked only and there was the general view that this will come back.

11:07Revisit. This will not go away. This is too seductive, too wealth-making for it to go away. I just think you're right, Tom, that because there's money involved and a great deal of money involved, there will be people, even those very people who've said disgraceful behaviour from Infantino might at some level in their body be thinking, but there is a lot of money to be made here. Well, the Super League didn't go away. I mean, you know, it stayed where it was quite literally. You know, the clubs sort of pulled out one by one, but, you know, Barca and Madrid were in it for a long time. Yeah. And I think that it just kind of came back in a slightly different watered-down form, which is what we see now in the Champions League, where you have more games, you know, the bigger teams are playing against each other more often and UEFA sort of saw that this was what a lot of people wanted, even if the original idea was put together badly, you know, and communicated badly.

11:58And ultimately we ended up with what now a lot of people would say is a bit of a European superlake. Yeah, we've all been on our guard. All I'm saying is we need to stay on our guard. Absolutely. Keep on our guard and the Times will help you do that. I want to say my timeline on X is now just full of Martin Ziegler, saved football. You know, normally my algorithm kind of taps into Spurs or European football or whatever. And now it's just sort of now Ziegler, Ziegler, Ziegler, you know. Everyone was going to say what a brilliant job he's done. Ziegler's gone global. I'm sure there'll be people out there talking about the FIFA presidency saying give it Ziegler to the end of the season.

12:26Well, you can't have him because he's ours and he's staying right where he is. Thank you for all your messages about our coverage and reporting in the past week. If you are a listener who doesn't have a Time subscription, though, you can get one for just£1 a month for three months. So make sure you do that and join us because there's loads of brilliant stuff on the app at all times, as well as FIFA this weekend and Alison Rudd's brilliant comment pieces. there was also a really intriguing piece about Real Madrid by Tom and I wanted to use it to talk about Madrid firstly by talking about your piece Tom and then talking about Madrid and the consistent allure that they seem to have which fascinates me in the modern game but firstly tell us a little bit about your piece that you wrote for the Sunday Times this weekend yeah I mean I wrote about Bellingham and Mourinho basically whether this is going to be a match made in heaven or a match made in hell you know I get it too you know very demanding very sort of dominant confident and yes confrontational personalities and whether or not this is going to bring the best out of each other or whether it's not.

13:22I think it's going to be fascinating to see. I sort of look back over Mourinho's career and talked to some people around both and thought they're from both sides. You can sort of see how Mourinho, I think, in his career has really loved players like Bellingham who sort of share his kind of elite mindset, who will basically go into battle with him and go all the way. Equally, I think others will attest to a side of Mourinho's coaching personality. When you think about like Paul Pogba, for example, Mario Balotelli, those sort of players who slightly sort of supersede the pitch, you know, who are kind of superstars, celebrities almost, and have that personality.

13:59They like to be that, like to express themselves. And I think there is a part of Mourinho that is suspicious of those players, you know, maybe even kind of slightly resents it. He likes to be the focal point, the centre of attention. and he doesn't like his players to sort of go too much into that, you know, too much noise. I think Pogba always said, I think he said in the podcast, think of Rio Ferdinand, where he kind of said that part of the problem was, I think, for both of us, that whenever Mourinho was asked questions, it was always Paul, Paul, Paul. And whenever Pogba was asked questions, it was always Jose, Jose, Jose, you know, and they both kind of got tired of that, you know, and I guess you could sort of think that might be a problem with Bellingham.

14:32But I do think that, you know, you look at some of the players that Mourinho has done brilliantly with, you know, clearly Lampard, Schneider, Mesut Ozil, those kind of attacking midfield spots. I saw a clip of Cesc Fabregas talking about Mourinho. And this is a guy who was made by Arsene Wenger. But he said, when Mourinho was at Chelsea, he made me like, I have to join Chelsea. And used to text him every night before a big game saying, you're going to dictate tomorrow's game. You're going to play the game. And he made me feel 10 feet tall. He made me feel so amazing. So yeah, you're right. Those players did love him, didn't they?

15:02I was going to say, just on that, the mission player. So one player that was a standout for him and yet he was on his back a lot was Eden Hazard. He always tried to push Eden Hazard to become a better player. And obviously, he ends up going to Real Madrid. And not succeeding. Yeah, and not succeeding. But that was a massive challenge for Jose Mourinho. Is there a sense within Madrid, Tom, that Perez has obviously picked Mourinho, hitched his wagon very much to him with the re-election and things? Is there an idea that there's a hope that this is Mourinho's Ancelotti era? You know, this is the big guy with the big squad who's going to come in and just be the arm around the shoulder.

15:39He's not going to be as front and centre because it's not just Bellingham. This is a squad with Kylian Mbappe in it, Vinicius at the moment, potentially signing Diamande, signed loads and loads of other stars this summer as well. Trent Alexander-Arnold's in there. It's not just Bellingham. He's got loads of stars to contend with. Is he going to be able to take that elder statesman approach? Yeah, there's this funny thing that people are talking about at the club, El Nuevo Mourinho, which is, you know, the new Mourinho. You know, like, we're going to see this whole new side, like softer, wiser, much kind of more relaxed in the background, you know.

16:09And journalists were kind of making a big thing last week in one of the preseason friendlies where Mourinho came over and said, oh, you guys, you look so hot. Like, you know, here's some water. Can we get some more water for these poor journalists? You know, and they were like, who is this new Mourinho? He's saying, you know, he cares about us. And, you know, and you think, yeah, guys, let's wait for the football to start, you know. But there is this sense, I think, that Mourinho, after the last few years, yes, but also, of course, after what happened in his first spell towards the end, you know, He wants to kind of leave the kind of rancor and the bitterness all behind.

16:36And I think he understands that what's gone wrong in the last couple of years at Madrid is that maybe the kind of Xabi Alonso experiment, if you like, with kind of one of those coaches who wants to be hard, who wants to sort of be very interventionist, didn't work. And I think, to be fair, like I think all of us would say, you know, Mourinho at Real Madrid at this point in his career, like really, like when there are all these other kind of young and fashionable coaches. But look at what Florentino has done before. You know, he brought Zidane in, you know, when no one really fancied Zidane. He was sort of, you know, the reserve coach.

17:03You're right about, you know, Ancelotti. He came back, by the way, after when he was sort of having a middling time at Everton. Really? Ancelotti at Madrid? But Madrid kind of works in its own way. It has its own rhythm, you know. And I think Florentino has an instinct here where he believes that basically managers kind of get in the way. You know, they get in the way of the club. They get in the way of the players. And what you actually need is someone who can understand the dressing room, manage the club. And listen, Mourinho, you know, he's not going to be someone who's going to sit back. But I think they're hoping he can just bring back a little bit more of less coaching, more leadership.

17:34Yeah. And with Bellingham as well, has there been a sense post-World Cup, because obviously with a lot of the English debate around, could he even get, you know, versus Morgan Rodgers at the end, all made to look stupid for even bringing up that conversation. By far, England star player, record goal scorer in a tournament with seven goals. Within Spain and Madrid fans, was there like, yeah, duh, guys? or were even they going, oh my God, we've actually got a global superstar here? Yeah, I mean, I think Bellingham, you know, in a way like the last couple of years at Madrid have been a bit wavering, you know, and not through all his own fault at all.

18:07You know, he had a bad shoulder injury. The club has been very much in crisis. He has been moved around a lot. You know, we talk about his role at England and, you know, what was his best position? Who plays best with Jude? You know, they've had that kind of same debate in Madrid. You know, he's played with Ancelotti when he was at his best, almost like a second forward. Played more sort of a tip of a diamond you know as well Angelotti then put him on the left a little bit coming in Ablo and Xavi Alonso both kind of pulled him deeper because Madrid's main problem was can we keep the ball we haven't got like a passer a midfielder kind of Tony Cruz and I think Belliam has sort of suffered through that you know I think one of the things that Mourinho might deliver him is some clarity you know this is our system I'm Mourinho I play 4-2-3-1 I have two physical pivots and I play someone ahead whose job is to get in the box and I think Belliam's role there will be you know get in the box score goals and I think in this more kind of physical Madrid team under Mourinho, where it's more about athleticism, it's more about drive, it's less about kind of control and passing.

19:00I think that could work quite well for Bellingham. Tom? Well, you might get Rodri as well as being that type of midfielder. I think it's incredibly intriguing seeing Jose back there, a club that might not have the lure of what it's had in years gone by, but it's still number one in the world. The most attractive club. You know, we talk about Vanessa Sturna, I've sort of said the same thing for weeks on this one. And I said, I just can't see it happening because I could only remember one great signing of a player being in his pomp at 26 years old. And I would have said Dennis Bergkamp. And when he went to Arsenal from Inter, Inter were a great team at that particular time.

19:38Are they still the statue of Real Madrid? Probably not, no. But it's a massive story. I mean, look, one thing you can say about Real Madrid and Jose is that your idea of what you talked about, of how you handle a football club. Last year, I watched them. I watched them both games against Man City. They were phenomenal. And then them getting knocked out afterwards. And you're thinking, this club has already got an incredible array of players. And when they're on, they can be brilliant. But it has to make them a harder team to beat them. As a player, Tony, what does a club like Real Madrid do to you as a player?

20:15Is it like the golden land in the distance? Is it like the dream, the end of the rainbow? Does it feel like? Well, think of our own club. Manaman leaving, Owen going. Then you had Trent go. You know, anyone that gets their head turned by Real Madrid is never, in my mind, I can't think of it, anybody who's gone couldn't agree terms. It's just like everyone agrees with Real Madrid. So they put the kitchen sink in there for you. It's just, and also the players that have played for Real Madrid in their history, whether it's been a Figo or whether it's been Zinan and Zidane and many, many others. But I think that is the fascinating bit.

20:51And maybe I'm proving my own point by asking Tom so forensically about Madrid. This allure that they still possess, this has been such a fascinating summer with not only the players that they have signed already, the players that they've been linked with, Rodri obviously being an example of where the tone and the gnat is like, well, Rodri will obviously go to Real Madrid. Like, hang on a minute. Like, Man City are pretty good. Like, they're pretty good. They might be one of the favourites to win the Premier League. Like, he's been amazing there. oh yeah it'll go around obviously like and the idea around Vinicius as well this idea that oh well you'd never leave in your prime as you said Tony and I agree with you I can't think of many that leave Madrid as a star in their prime Casemiro leaves he won what back-to-back three consecutive Champions Leagues already goes for a massive wedge at Manchester United has an indifferent time Varane leaves when he's you know as it transpired crocked basically what what is it do they still have this allure?

21:46You know, the idea that Vinicius wouldn't be thinking, OK, well, Arsenal are the Premier League champions. They got to the Champions League final. I would be the absolute star in that team. But you wouldn't be a Galactico. Why would you stop having that label? But would you want that label, though? In modern football these days, where footballers are so forensic in their own understanding of the game and their own interpretation and wanting to win, but also wanting to better themselves, it's still that Galactico idea, as you say. Is it just because the white kit's beautiful? I don't know. It does seem to still exist, though.

22:19I'll tell you what a great guess would be to have would have Gareth Bale sitting there. He'd probably explain it in a moment. Well, that was the whole thing, wasn't it? The kind of idea, and I think he said it afterwards, you never leave Real Madrid. Once you're there, you never leave, or you certainly try to never leave. Tom, what do you think? You follow Spanish football. I think it's the guarantee of trophies. I think it's the Champions League history, the European Cup histories, the best players. They know that if you go to Real Madrid, you're probably going to be in nine out of ten semifinals for a decade.

22:47And that puts you in a position where you can win multiple European Cups. And there are lots of very good players who are playing for clubs like Liverpool or Chelsea or Man United, but they don't have the same guarantee. Real Madrid's record in that competition, I think, resonates with the best players. It's a nice place to live. It's sunny a lot. The beer is cheap. You sit down, they give you free olives with your coffee. Don't think footballers are worried about the free olives. It appeals to me, definitely. but yeah so I mean there is that as well it's the lifestyle it's the culture isn't it but I think you're right it's it's the history in it I mean and the one thing that on the on the reverse is that I think players who go there they find they're not the star right I think this is the thing with Vinicius you know and there's a lot to play into this you know you could do a whole podcast about Vinicius but for the last you know three or four years he's had a tough time there you know he's been a really good player he's obviously suffered with a horrendous amount of racist abuse he's very much in the media all the time in Spain you know we talk about Bellium maybe the one in the limelight with Mourinho.

23:40Well, actually, it's Vinicius. He's the guy who the press are always asking about. And I think he's a bit exhausted by it all. And you're thinking, well, he's not really the star player anymore because Mbappe is not only there in terms of his contract in the team, but actually plays in his position, you know? And someone like Vinicius, I think the only time when the best players sort of think it's time to leave Real Madrid is when they want to go somewhere else to be the star, to be the centre of attention. Look at players who have gone to PSG, for example, in the past. Not Real Madrid, but if you think about Neymar leaving Barcelona for a similar reason because of Messi and because he wanted to be the main man at PSG.

24:11So do we not think Vinicius could do that with Arsenal? I think he could. And I think for him... Imagine Saka on the right, Vinicius on the left. It changes a lot of things. Imagine Saka on one side, Vinicius on the other. We could finally stop having the debate about Arsenal having a striker. It wouldn't matter, wouldn't it? I think it would be a good place for him. You'd score a hat full with those two either side of you. It'd be fantastic. I think it could be a good move for Vinicius. I don't know. Financially, obviously, it's a different thing. Do Arsenal want to blow up their wage structure and, you know, Blartwood is a very sort of tight-knit dressing room.

24:37If he's just a certain type of personality, there would be some risk there. But I think it could be a very good move for him. You know, you've got a team there that could be built around him in certain ways. I think we've all felt that in the last couple of years, Arsenal have needed a game-changer. You know, someone in those kind of like nitty-gritty matches or, you know, away at Fulham or something where you just need someone to deliver. Just gets the ball, boom, boom, top corner. Which he did so often. He did it in the World Cup. And you're reminded every time you watch him, this guy is absolutely gold.

25:03He's amazing. amazing in those moments. But it is true that Madrid, I think, have a knack of selling players at the right time. You know, you look back over the recent history of all the players who have either left or retired. They tend to know when they've had their moment there. You know, and do they go somewhere else and make them look silly? Not that often, you know. That's what I want. That's what I want from this. That's what I want. I want Vinicius in the Premier League and I want him to make Real Madrid look very silly. If you've got thoughts, maybe you're an Arsenal fan who just wants to plead with Vinicius, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetime.co.uk I'm going to take a break we've got loads to come in the second half of the show we're going to talk about the Premier League teams that we are excited by intrigued by and worried about but a little quiz question to take us to the break about Real Madrid which Englishman played the most games for Real Madrid Steve McManaman David Beckham or Jude Bellingham find out after the break Thank you.

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27:55welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and i've got allison rudd tom allnut and tony cascarino with me i really really thought about this one they really really did which of these three englishmen played the most for real madrid bex maca or jude what was the collective answer in the end well i said maca i don't know what they say. Ekmanaman. Jude Bellingham, so far, 140 appearances. Steve McMahonman, 158 appearances. David Beckham, 159 appearances. Nice. Do you know the satisfaction I got from that? That question, I was just like, oh, just look it up.

28:30I didn't even realise it was that close. How wonderful is that? Honestly. Yeah. Oh, unfair. Yeah. Well, if it's one game different stuff. Oh, you're so competitive, you lot. I think he probably counted them up wrong. So competitive, or a website did. Anyway, listeners and viewers on YouTube as well, three weeks to go until we will be back in this studio discussing the opening weekend of the Premier League season. So there's plenty of time for big preview shows and there will be plenty of those shows and plenty more time for transfers to happen. I just thought I'd get us started on the preview trail with a couple of categories.

29:05We want to talk about the clubs in the Premier League that we're excited by, intrigued by and a little bit worried about. So let's start with the hype though. Let's start with the excitement. Tony, I'm going to start with you. team you're most excited about so far at this stage in early August? Yeah, I immediately jumped to, only because of what happened last season with Coventry, because of the amount of goals they scored, the way they played, and Lampard. And just being, you know, Franks took on a job. Well, you know, it's a great club, Coventry. Yeah. It really is. It's a terrific football club that will have a massive feeling, a real great vibe.

29:40Probably a bit similar to Ipswich when they came up. And do you think they could have like Sunderland vibes about them this season? It's a tough one, Tom. They've not quite made as many signs. And also Onyeka has gone there. But look, if you're looking at... If you were to ask that question the day before the season started and you knew every bit of business a club had done, it's a far easier answer. Of course, Tony. But I'm looking at it. I'm looking about being excited because I want to see what Lampard does with the Coventry team and how they play. because he's gone from a team that took it to everybody when they got on such a great run and got them promoted and got them promoted to come up comfortably.

30:19And that attitude in the Championship last season, as myself and Greg have said on our EFL show, regularly, consistently all the way from, gosh, Coventry, no one saw it coming in that manner. That manner, you know, they thought they might be up there in the playoff contention, but the way they took it to the league, he is a fascinating storyline, isn't he, Tom, Frank Lampard this season? Yeah, I mean, it's the way Coventry played last season, isn't it? They're not going to come up and try and scrap their way through, I don't think. You're hoping to see a team who are going to try and carry on from where they left off, you know, to try and score their way out.

30:47And I mean, Lampard is a really nice revival story, isn't it? And I don't want to frame this in the wrong way, but I sort of feel like if commentary stay up with a degree of conviction, I think he'll be back in the frame for a decent, big-ish job in the Premier League. The England job in the future? Oh, you never know. You never know. I mean, if we're thinking post-Tuchel and England wants someone who's kind of come through the system, who's English, then why not? But I think more for him, it's a matter of, you know, this has been such a great story for him, for the club, for the team. And if they can secure their survival again, and I think they can, then I think it kind of just rubber stamps what we sort of all thought, which is that maybe the Lampard thing just, it wasn't because of him and he's a bad manager or a bad coach.

31:32It's just those jobs that he took weren't really the right fit and the right time for him. Yeah. As you say, it would be really nice to see that kind of full revival completed, wasn't there? Because there's now a part of his narrative where he's like, oh, well, you can do it in the Championship. You can do it in the Championship. You're good in the Championship. You can't quite do it in the Premier League. So it'd be fascinating to see. Alison, though, Coventry, a little worry for you. I'm worried mainly because I really want them to do well. Right. And I do see Frank Lamport as a potential contender to be the England manager.

31:58He was a great, great English player. He ought, and he's... The way you become a great manager is to go through troubled times. It shouldn't be, you know, seamless progression to greatness. He's had tough times and quite badly treated by Chelsea in some respects, I think, because he stepped in when they really needed him. And, you know, I remember being at a lot of press conferences with Frank Lampard when he was at Chelsea and being really impressed with how he handled various issues there. So I want him to do well. But the problem is you're a newly promoted club and they want to be like Brentford.

32:37They don't want to do what Sunderland did and spend lots of dosh, lots and lots of new players. There's no churn there at Coventry, which is possibly commendable to stick with what you've got. But Brentford are not, they're not a model you can just copy just like that. They had a lot of practice, Brentford, in the championship at building their model, getting it to where they wanted it to be. Some people call it money ball just for shorthand. But, you know, we all know how they scout well, use AI, use algorithms as well as traditional scouting methods. And when they sell players, they sell massive profits.

33:19Coventry, I think, want to do that, not the Sunderland approach. But you kind of think, well, the Sunderland approach was very successful. You can't just become Brentford because you fancy becoming Brentford. And I do worry that they've got a tough start to the season. Arsenal on the opening day, yeah. Yeah, and then Man United, quite close to Man City. I'll check. It's Man City and Man United quite soon after. I mean, what you don't want is to start with two heavy defeats like that and then for everyone to start saying those things. We've just been talking about, oh, Frank Lampard, great championship manager, that's his level with Derby and Coventry.

33:58He's not going to get it at the top end. And so I'm worried that the goodwill around the club, and they're a great club, and it's been 25 years in the waiting, and I want them to succeed. I just worry, have they actually cracked the model that would allow them to succeed? It could do with a bit of Premier League experience, I think. I'd like to see them in the next kind of month just add two or three sort of old wise heads, you know. They've been linked with Tamori. Tamori fight, or Christian Norgard, or Ben Davis. They could have taken Jordan Henderson, but Chelsea have nicked that idea. They've nicked all of them.

34:31But I'd just like to see them. Two or three people who know what the Premier League is about. Some older heads in the dressing room. Because I think Onyeka, Sims maybe, played in the Premier League before, but not many. Not many, and I think you do need that. They've made three big signings so far. But as we say, a good couple of weeks yet. We could see more signings before the start of the season. Alisson, as you say, they've got Arsenal and Manchester City away in their first three games and a big home game against Hull City. Special penalising points for any podcast who mention that as a six-pointer in the 29th of August.

35:01It's not possible. Shouldn't have been allowed. Alison, who are you excited by? I'm excited by Chelsea. Because, I mean, let's think about it. To go from... They've got a really classy manager. They've experimented with managers that have just... For whom the job has been too much. Liam Rossini, it did not work. Graham Potter, it did not work. They've gone for the class manager who was out there, I think, in Xabi Alonso. I think he's spoken really well. There's a piece in The Times today from Peter Rutzler, who's over with them. They're still in Australia now. Yeah, still, yeah. And where he speaks beautifully.

35:40I mean, you know, if you were... Are you a fan of Xabi Alonso? If you were slightly in love with Xabi Alonso... Is it Stevie Highway-like for you? You'd want him to talk the way he talks, and he talks that way. So it's brilliant. It's thoughtful. He explains why he took the job. He feels he has a lot of input. He's not saying he's a megalomaniac. No one says they're a megalomaniac. Collegiate. It's collegiate. They have discussions about who to sign. But, you know, the fact that the club have done this now famous U-turn and are bringing in experienced players to help the youth, and so they have that nice blend we've just been talking about with Coventry.

36:18You need a lot of experience as well as youth. And the fact that Alonso, he's called manager and he's having this input and he felt it was right in his head and his gut, he said. And I just feel Chelsea have the money. They have the recent history. They've now got the first proper classy manager under the new ownership regime. I just basically have faith in Alonso to deliver. I think I said in the last podcast, I think Chelsea might win the title. They've got nothing else to divert them. and they've got no European, you know, season to navigate. So I just feel he'll sort of hit the ground running and just get better and better.

37:04And how, you know, also those wealth of young players he has, they will enjoy having someone of his playing. They've already talked about in training the way he passes the ball and they've gasped at it. this is someone you can really look up to as your manager. So when he tells you, maybe you should try this or that, they're going to listen. So I think it's set up to be a fascinating season for Chelsea and a successful one. Yeah, I think a lot of Chelsea fans will be excited as well. Do you know who I'm excited about? Remember, I'm a sports editor, so I'm all about narrative. Arsenal. Arsenal.

37:38Because they've got no excuse now. They've got no excuse. They've won the title. And also, Mikel Arteta is the longest-serving manager. I think in England, but definitely in the Premier League, He's the old head with all the turbulence and change around him. The Premier League champions. If they get that Martin Odegaard from the World Cup version back as well, my goodness me, that would be exciting. And I think, it might not be Vinicius, but I think and hope they've got a big, exciting signing in them. And I really am fascinated by the idea that shackles are off, Premier League title won. No one, no one can talk about bottle or anything now.

38:14Let's see what they can do. can we get an Arteta version 0.3 or whatever? Tom, you're looking at me again. Tom Allnut has this face where he looks at me in this podcast quite often with a smile as if to say, oh. Bless. Oh, bless him. Oh, bless him. He's got no idea. No, I think you're right. I think Arsenal are, I'd put them in my intriguing category. Because I think... Let's move on to the intriguing category because I think that's the biggest category. Yeah, I mean, one thing on Arsenal is I think, I don't think they can win the title play in the same way. You know, and maybe they'll prove me wrong like maybe they'll just do exactly the same thing and i guess the one thing you would say about them is in contrast to all the other you know contenders it is kind of the same you know and you think well that's pretty good given where everyone else is but i just wonder can they play the same style you know the way they won last season i think other teams are starting to you know kind of work it out the form wasn't the best you know from from february the performances weren't particularly convincing and also you know from the fans is an interesting you know point you know are the fans you know going to put up with sort of those kind of performances again you know It was one thing to kind of do it to get over the line, but it's another to do it when you're trying to defend the titles.

39:17I think we saw a little bit at the end of the season, didn't we, some of those games. I think the Fulham first half, Alisson, were you at that game? When they were under pressure and needed to win, Saka played again and came back and just lifted everyone. I'd love to see that from Arsenal. And the Jova set pieces can be a bit like a kind of Transformers-style option B, where Arteta sits on the bench and goes... And, you know, Saliba and Gabriel rise up and Jova walks to the touchline and they're like, oh, for God's sake, get back again. What does it do? That's an actual button? Yeah, it's an actual button.

39:45Oh, right. Cool. It's a set-piece button. It's like set-piece FC. Activate. Up they go. On comes, you know, all the big centre-backs. Mosquera comes on, all the big lads. And in it goes into the box. Anyway. You're right to say it's the intriguing, in a way. Because it's defined them so clearly, the bridesmaid tag. Yeah. And that enormous pressure. And they were, for a lot of, you know, neutrals, they were the laughingstock because they just couldn't do it. And, you know, in a parallel world, Arteta's without a job now because he'd done it four seasons in a row and it was just too much for anyone to take.

40:22So how you operate, how you play, how you vibe around a club when you've got that weight off your shoulders will be incredibly interesting. And they didn't run away with it. No. You know, they really did struggle at their final games of the season. But it's just exciting. We're lovely, sashayed beautifully into the intrigue category, which I think is probably the biggest one. Tone, intriguing? Well, there's a few in there. I looked at sort of Brighton and felt, yeah, that could be intriguing. I'm going to jump for Brentford. Not only because that second syndrome and this thing we always talk about, the second season, how you do.

40:56Because if we go back a year ago, Keith Andrews having the job and it shocked a lot of people within the game. It shocked Brentford's fans. They didn't see that coming. The club believed in him. He'd done brilliantly well. His set pieces were extraordinary. They beat teams in a way that, in some ways, you know, you saw Thomas Frank struggling at Spurs and Nicky Fandridge is doing really well at Brentford. I just find it a really intriguing next campaign for them. Was it Sagari? It was, what, 40-odd million pounds? The player they just brought, Sagari. And you saw, I go about and I kept thinking, they played at Griffin Park.

41:33They wouldn't have had five grand spare. You know, they were a club that couldn't stamp up 10 grand for Teddy Sheridan. and they offered five when he was at Millwall and now this team is spending 40 odd million pounds I find it really intriguing how Brentford will go this year because it is a completely different season all went well and he's somehow got to keep all that togetherness because Brentford had a lot of players who were really trying to prove a point last year Tom? Intrigue? Man United you know they were top of the table from February to the end of the season I think in form I think they go into the season with a lot of momentum and a lot of good feeling around Carrick.

42:12Good vibes. You talk to Maynard fans, good vibes, yeah. I like the Tielemans signing. Do you think they need another signing? There's a bit of chat about Santos, you know, potential signing. They started this window, in fact, I think I did a debate on this podcast about the midfielders that they were linked with. Mentioned Tonali, gone elsewhere. Mentioned Fernandes, gone elsewhere. Talked about Tuamani and they've ended up with Tielemans and Santos. I agree with you, I love the Tielemans signing, but it's not quite the stature and the presence that maybe they were expecting. Yeah, I remember talking to people about Santos when he first signed for Chelsea and they said, well, he's a real player.

42:44And maybe he's just one of those who at Chelsea didn't quite get the space to kind of come through. I think there is still a question mark there about kind of mobility. You know, that you wouldn't necessarily say Kobi Maynou and Tielemans are the most kind of athletic sort of two central midfielders. So that is perhaps a question mark. But I like the team and I think they look well set, you know, in comparison to most of the league, that it's quite a sort of long-term management thing that's happened there now. You know, it feels like Carrick's been in the building. And I think, I don't know if they're going to win the title, but I think they can be right there in the mix, I think.

43:15Do you think the young leg Gabriel will play? JJ Gabriel, yeah. Well, he got his first start, didn't he? 15 years old in the friendly. I'm as excited about Shea Lacey, who we saw glimpses of last season. But I think he's a real talent, left-footed, cutting in on the right wing. Well, there's talk of a number of youngsters, isn't there? Again, Old Trafford. Which you might then get. Maybe not to the 92 level. You might then get with Carrick. And again, that feeds into the vibe because if there's one thing Manchester United fans love, it's blooding young talent, isn't it? And I'm still fascinated by the Marcus Rashford situation.

43:41But just to say, I mean, the one reason, you know, it's more kind of intrigued rather than exciting, I guess, is there are a few... Carrick had a lot of things in his favour, I think, last season. Yeah, one game a week. One game a week. I think a nice kind of post-Amrin bounce, you know, let's have to say that as well. And we're in a fresh season when you have a lot more challenges and it's his team, it's his pre-season, and it's his style now. I think there are question marks there about whether he can deliver it more long-term. Alison? I'm intrigued by Liverpool. We wondered where this would come up.

44:12See, I deliberately didn't choose them. I knew you would do that, Al. It's very nice. Why intrigue rather than exciting? I'm intrigued because their pre-season tour has shown that there are injuries and homegrown players have been given opportunities. So it's a young guy called Luke Chambers who's a left back. He's been unknown at Charlton. He's come back. Because of the injuries, he's been moved to centre back. He's done all right, actually. So I'm intrigued. I'm intrigued how Antonio Aureola is going to start the season. Is he going to give these little known but homegrown talents talents the chance to prove themselves because there's are Liverpool going to suddenly splash the cash on some ready-made defenders because that's where the need is but the bigger intrigue is that they've been pressing the way Andoni Erelatine presses but not for the full 90 minutes so this is what happened at Bournemouth you know it took them nine games to get to grips with the demands of his system and of the effort, the sheer effort you have to put in for his system to work.

45:28So they've been playing sort of 45 minutes of having fun at pressing, then they looked a bit tired. So will they be ready for the first game of the season to execute what Irayola wants? And if they don't, then Liverpool are going to drop a few points at the start of the season. Will, what is intriguing is, do the fans then give, do they acknowledge that this was always going to, always going to be at a strong risk and give him time to adjust? Or is it going to start sour and that he's going to be, you know, one month into the season is Liverpool's new manager. I have to say a manager that a lot of fans of a lot of other clubs would have loved.

46:08Yep. Will he be under pressure? Because he's not hit the ground running. And if they don't hit the ground running, it won't be entirely Iroh's fault because, as we've said before, we don't know what the signings are going to be between now and the very start of the season. But Liverpool do need to make some. Yeah, that's interesting. For the exact same reasons, Liverpool fall into the worry category for me. Because I don't think it's quite Thomas Frank and Tottenham, but there's a real pressure around Iola here. There's a real adoration around his style of football and all the brilliance that Bournemouth did.

46:39And it's not a straight transplant into Liverpool. And as you say, they've not yet made the signings. There's still a lot of the kind of turbulence that Arna Slott had to deal with and potentially you could say because he got sacked, couldn't deal with. He's still got to get... I mean, there's huge pressure around Alexander Izak. Iraiola doesn't just have to start the season well. Izak has to start the season well. Otherwise, those pesky journalists are going to be talking about one of the worst signings in Premier League history. They'll be missing Eketike. Virts is still a question mark. It's a real, real pressure job.

47:09And I mean, lovely interview in the Times with Ian Whittle a couple of weeks ago. He's talking the talk. He's going to step back and things. I don't know whether you're going to need a bit more front foot and a bit more bullish I don't know Tom you know Andy Donny Arayolo you've interviewed him would you feel intrigued or worry? Intrigued I'm more positive I think than worry I think Arayolo is a fantastic coach first of all I think there are lots of players for Liverpool who you think under his guidance I think can go to another level you know and it's a team of kind of potential at the moment and I do think there are lots of question marks in defence for example we're probably going to have Kirchges and Frimpong right to start the season you've got a new centre-back with with van Dijk at the back as well Jacques you know like it's there's a lot of sort of new things have to be done here like it's a cliche but he needs time I think more than ever this is not a coaching appointment when Liverpool can expect it to be brilliant straight away they have to understand the way Uriah works bringing through players a specific style of play he's also not the kind of manager I think this is the one thing I wonder with a kind of frank comparison and for Liverpool Uriah is not the kind of guy who's going to come in and dominate a press conference.

48:13You know, he's not going to give you loads of brilliant lines. He's not the kind of guy who's going to have this sort of charisma and aura straight away. He's going to be a slow burn, you know, slightly more of a sort of Unai Emery almost kind of thing where, wow, we love having this guy because he's a genius. But don't expect him to come in and sort of be a massive figure. He wants to coach. So let him coach. Give him the time to do that. Really, really interesting. I should say to Tony's point about some of those other teams, there's probably a whole category, isn't there, around Brentford of can they do it again?

48:38You know, Aston Villa and Unai Emery, Bournemouth with Marco Rosa we're going to be talking about him in six months time as oh my gosh what a manager what a guy are they going to sign all the players again Brighton can they do it they've got European football and Sunderland Regis Labris can he do it again can he do it again I think already people are talking about them as relegation candidates I think we would also be very very silly not to mention Manchester City and the idea of the post Pep Guardiola era as an intriguing factor I've mentioned my team that I'm worried about as has Alisson so just to wrap us up Tony and Tom teams that you're maybe a little bit worried about Tony I don't think they're going to be relegation, obviously.

49:16It's Aston Villa. You are worried. What I am concerned about, obviously, losing Morgan Rodgers was a big one. He scored some big goals last year for Aston Villa and got them a lot of points return in the Premier League. I thought that was a big loss. Garnaccio's come in. I'm not sure with Garnaccio. I've seen him on his good days. I've seen him on his bad days. And he's a very hit and miss player. Tom had mentioned, obviously, Tillemans as well leaving. another experienced player going out the door Manzambi who I watched in the World Cup played less than 50 games in his career he's a 20 year old but he's played less than 50 games so that's got to work for Villa European football Champions League football it's going to be a big ask on their squad so I would I just think it will be a much tougher year for Aston Villa I don't see them getting to the like they got come fifth last year but I don't see them being a top six team this year yeah interesting Tom just to wrap us up Newcastle lost all their players lost their manager lost their feel-good vibes you know what's the good stuff you know at the moment you know they need to have a good month I think going into the season and similarly I worry a bit about Fulham you know I think coming off the back of a manager who's been very good very stable I think we'll probably say was underestimated underrated you know in a few months time they've lost Wilson lost Raul Jimenez as well you know there's two players I don't know I saw something like that 30-40 % of their goals last season they were hard to replace in the middle of the Premier League let's see I mean, Arboloha is well thought of.

50:39You know, he's a smart coach, maybe bringing some younger players. There might be a bit of a refreshing kind of feel, but a question mark there for me. It's a project, again, of what we talk about, other models from Brighton to Bournemouth. It's that project again, bringing in a couple of young players from Real Madrid. We're the nice guys of football journalism, though. Projects and times doesn't exist in 2026, guys. We'll see whether it actually applies to the fans in the Premier League. So you're not in the middle of the table, you know, because where's your flaw? Like Liverpool, you know, with Ariely, you might hope, okay, if it's a transition season it might be fifth it might be fourth whatever for Fulham a transition season could see them finishing last let's be honest that can happen so I think it's a really difficult job to come in You mentioned Harry Wilson as well Leeds United very intrigued by their summer business there's loads more still to come and there's loads and loads of weeks for things to change and happen so do get in touch with me about the teams you're excited intrigued and worried by tom.clog at thetimes.co.uk but we will leave it there Tony Cascarino Tom Ornott and Alison Rudd thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Thursday We'll see you then.

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