Is anyone better than Arsenal?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. 25 goals in the six Champions League games involving English sides this week as Arsenal and Chelsea beat Bayern and Barcelona, but there were defeats for Manchester City, Newcastle, Tottenham and Liverpool. On today's show, we'll discuss the fallout from all those games, give our views on teammates fighting and Cristiano Ronaldo's shock let-off from FIFA. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea. It's Pete Rutzler, the former Marseille, Chelsea and Ireland forward Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual.

0:41Chaps, how are we feeling? Good mood, bad mood? How are we doing? Good mood. I've cheered that. Good mood. He's a bit miserable this morning when he walked in. Yeah, I'm on the quest of a slump this morning. I will. But we're starting in a good mood. Right, well that means let's start with Arsenal and Chelsea then. The two teams who picked up very impressive wins in big games. Why don't we go back to Tuesday night and talk about Chelsea against Barcelona because we've got two journalists in the room who were there and a former Chelsea striker. This could be the Chelsea special episode. Pete, you were there at Stamford Bridge and when I was following this game, I was thinking of you actually, not just because of what a privilege it must have been to be there, but because on this podcast earlier in the season, you said this Enzo Moresca side are developing a trait of being very good in big games against big teams.

1:26And so it proved. Yeah, so it proved. Wasn't too surprised that they won the game because they're very good at that. I think since the Club World Cup final against PSG, I think there's a blueprint there for not just turning up in these games, performing at a very high level, but also for Enzo Maresca being quite good at setting a team up against these high-level opponents, high-level opposition coaches. I think we saw that again with the way he set up with three forwards looking to exploit Hansi Flick's high line, where they've had quite a few issues this season in Barcelona. Initially, I thought, I'm going to turn to Gregor and just saying, I'm not sure this is working because Barcelona were pressing very aggressively.

2:08Chelsea were having to go quite long. There was no one there to hold the ball up. Pedro Neto was playing as the nine. But as the game went on, once you got past about 20 minutes or so, Chelsea were so intense, so aggressive, very high tempo, sort of led by Moises Cricado. You could pinpoint anyone actually in the team. And I think Barcelona had a bit of a Premier League baptism at Stamford Bridge. But yeah, you're right. the bigger result I felt and it seems crazy considering the type of game this was it's Chelsea-Barcelona first time they met for seven years all the pomp and ceremony was actually beating Burnley at the weekend because that's the banana skin and of course we'll talk about Arsenal at the weekend wouldn't surprise me again if they get a result wouldn't surprise me if they win but then it's Leeds and that's the kind of game that they may drop points in so that's where the consistency lies Interesting we'll come on to some predictions for that game against Arsenal Gregor as I say you were there as well very impressive performance by lots of Chelsea players, but in particular, Mark Kukurea, who spoke before this game about the challenge of going up against Lamin-Yemal and a few others.

3:09You'd gone there thinking, oh great, I'm going to see a Barcelona masterclass. And instead, it was one of your favourite positions showing you how it's done. Yeah, it was... Yemal started not bad, actually. He kind of had a few little flourishes around the halfway line. And as I wrote in the piece, he kind of... There was only one moment really in the entire game where he managed to kind of face him up and run at him in that sort of position where we've seen him so threatening so often in the Champions League that sort of inside right position 25 yards from goal coming on his left foot and you think anything can happen he can curl it in the top corner he can pick it across he can link with someone inside or he can drag it down the line and Cucuréa is just he's becoming someone who he's so good at that 1v1 duel that battle Is he embodying this kind of big game mentality a little bit?

3:59Because I feel like he's often a player that maybe talks up his game before big games. You know, he did it in the European Championships as well. Went into that tournament with a few people going, I'm not sure he's up to it. And then Spain end up winning it and he's a big part of it. Does he sum that up for Chelsea a little bit? For either of you? To an extent, I think Gregor wrote about this, about how he's the kind of player that you'd want in your team. And as an opponent, you don't like him because he's annoying. He says annoying things. He kicks you. He rolls around. He's a fighter for his team.

4:27He's also a good talker. There are loads of those in the Chelsea team. He's also a bit of a joker though Wayne Rooney was saying on Punditry Duty that He described him as a serious player After this performance And you think well That kind of reveals that people Don't think he was a serious player I think there's a truth in that He's a bit unconventional looking He's not like an elegant player He's got his big bushy barnet He's a bit of a wind-up merchant On the pitch too It's all the stuff that Chelsea fans And his teammates and stuff love opposition sort of loathe and so there's been a bit of reluctance I think to hold him up against some of the best players in this position in Europe but I think he's shown in the last six months in particular in all these big games and actually going back to the European Championships as well that he deserves to be up on that kind of platform because he's just an absolute rash he was like you know so aggressive and combative and like any time that Jamal got the ball he was on him and he had that confidence to be able to go tight and it is confidence bravery because if you get too tight you can be embarrassed if you get him behind and he's kind of confident enough to know I'm quick enough sharp enough and like aggressive enough to stop you Yeah we'll come on to talk about some full backs in a second as well because I want to bring in Arsenal in a second but just more broadly on Chelsea a fantastic second goal as well Estevão again showing his ability I mean are Chelsea really good or are they I can't work it out Pete you know you're talking about the big moment beating Burnley but other than defeat against Sunderland which again talks to your point about them not turning up in some of these games against weaker opposition I mean are they really good they're second in the league they've beaten Barcelona Tony you first how good are Chelsea?

6:11I've seen them I've very rarely seen a 90 minute performance even though that's pretty hard to do anyway but I've seen them be very good for periods I was stuck out last year Crystal Palace when they drew for an hour they were brilliant Chelsea and then they let the game slip in the last 10-15 minutes. On their day, they can match anybody. And their engine room of what Pete was saying with Caicedo, and then look at Fernandes and whether even others can come in as well. Gusto could go in and do a job for them. They're a very good side all over the pitch. I think their biggest weakness is the heart of the defence because they've had loads of injuries there, but that's their biggest weakness.

6:51I just want to mention something on Kukorau because when you're playing for the same national team as Jemel and you train and play against him on a daily basis and you'd have done training sessions I would have imagined that Jemel thought he was my worst nightmare really you know exactly what he's about you don't want to play against international teams because he's got that low centre of gravity he's got quick feet and Jemel's all the last that's what he wants to do is get you in a position to get past you very quickly and well that's Kukoran's biggest strength that you can't get past him with quick feet because he's so you know he reacts so well to things happening but the Estival goal was just extraordinary, you know.

7:29Lovely move, lovely move. Quick feet from everyone. You know, you just, you can see, I mean, look, Chelsea fans, as we know, adore him because they can see a star there, you know. And that, at such a tender age, I think just excites everybody at the bridge. Yeah. But they've got Neto there. I was going to say, Neto's looking good. Neto's looking really good this season. He's their number, I still think he's number one, but obviously you can change around these wide players. This is what makes it so interesting, the wide players, and we're going to talk Arsenal, I'm sure, Chelsea later on, at the weekend, the full-backs of Arsenal and how it sort of, the two of them, who's going to come out on top because both of them are good in wide areas.

8:08Yeah, I'll bring in Arsenal in just a sec, but just finally on that point, Pete. How good are Chelsea? You've watched them so much this season. How good are they? Are they capable of challenging for the title and for big trophies or are they just that tier just below? I think they're the tier just below. I think what they lack is their consistency, I think over a long league season. It wouldn't surprise me if they go far in the Champions League because I think, as I mentioned, they're quite good on these big occasions setting up against specific teams. I think they've just got to show that consistency.

8:35They've improved. I think you mentioned the wingers. Pedro Neto, for me, has been their most consistent. He's clearly trusted by Enzo Maresca. I think ever since the Club World Cup, I mean, he's not had any injury issues, which was his thing before after he joined from Wolves. He's been very good. But Jamie Gittins is improving. Alejandro Ganache is having some kind of impact. He's been clever with Esteval. I think it's a wise thing to do to just bring him in. Perfect occasion to play against Barcelona. Against Arsenal, maybe slightly different. It's a different challenge. You've got Neto there who can play.

9:04But in terms of their overall level, they've still got the defensive frailties. They've had injuries. You just know that there will be some rough patches, but they feel like they're improving. And the talent is there. They're not far away, I don't think. Kurt, were you disappointed in Barcelona? I know they had a man sent off, but I've got a bit of a thing with me with this year that the Spanish teams are not particularly strong. I know they've had a good week with Real Madrid winning and Mbappe getting four but generally I've been disappointed and I was disappointed in Real Madrid at Anfield.

9:32What did you think of Barca at Chelsea? Because I didn't think... Well, we'll talk about Liverpool but the fact that Liverpool were able to beat that Real Madrid side in hindsight looks quite telling. I think Barcelona were missing Pedri they were missing Gavi Marcus Rashford who's had an impact there had to just come back from a cold so he didn't play came off the bench at half time but by then it was It was done They moved the ball well Early on And the sending off Obviously had a Huge impact The big thing is The physicality aspect That was Flick referenced Hansi Flick said Like Chelsea were aggressive And dynamic And he even said Use the body well In the 1v1 situations He said I want that I want more of that From my team Although they don't really Have the stat chip Well no no It's a theme It's been a theme For a long time But this season having watched European games live in the Champions League, Europa League and Conference League this season every time the Premier League team has been the dominant force physically and it's a huge aspect of the game now and it feels like it's taken another big leap forward this season Premier League teams can dominate you physically Yeah, I'd say that dominance was also evident in Arsenal's game against Bayern Munich particularly that second half speaking of comments made by opposition teams I love the fact that after Harry Kane's comments and some of the Bayern comments about the physicality and set pieces, Arsenal score the first goal basically straight from a corner.

10:53I know Timber gets the flicker. Camera cuts the key. Wise comments, do you think there, Harry? But this was an incredibly impressive performance from Arsenal, wasn't it, Gregor? In terms of the second half in particular, I thought, the way that it won all, quite a tight game, Bayern again showing how great they'd been. And this had been teed up, hasn't it? The top two go head-to-head and also a second test of how good Arsenal are for that second half to just come out. and I thought blow them away I don't know whether that's a little bit toppy but I thought they were fantastic Yeah absolutely Bayern Munich dominated a lot of position in the first half they moved the ball well but it's lacked incisiveness, cutting edge, all those things and that's the kind of thing Arsenal earlier in the season when we were talking about but it's not the case anymore Ezi's been a big part of it the third goal it was like just a beautifully weighted pass that Neuer normally you think he's Goldust being that sweeper keeper and coming off his line and being so brave and if the pass had been a little bit over hit it would have worked but it was perfect they just seem to have more cutting edge now in open play and I know their first goal was a set piece and that got them in front and stuff but Declan Rice every game, every stage he's on now he just grabs it by the scruff of the neck and drives them forward there were moments in the first half and the second half where you just collect it and just charge just drive through the middle or drive down the inside channel on the left and just carry his team up the pitch and then try to link and like they've got so much strength everywhere and yeah they look they look really ominous you have to earn everything against Arsenal every bit of you know get great and hold of the ball you have to earn that because they're giving you nothing they're brilliant at doing it and you touched on second half Tom that was a first half I think was 32 % possession Arsenal right And so it's really low, didn't mind.

12:48But they changed it second half. And it was amazing watching that happen in real time where you'd go, do you know what? Once they let Rice go, that changed the game and the dynamics of the game incredibly. You wanted to talk about the fullbacks as well. Yeah, yeah. Because we were talking about this before the show. I think it's a really interesting point about who is in the coaching setup at Arsenal this season and what we see from their fullbacks. Yeah, well, there's a fullback I always love called Gabriel Heinzer from Manchester United and Marseille had watched him and he was a really tenacious, not really a normal fullback, as he wants to get tight to you, wants to put pressure on you, but he also offers something offensively.

13:25I'm looking at the Arsenal fullbacks, I'm thinking, they're two Gabriel Heinzers. You know, because Califorre is that. And so Timber is exactly the same. Second half, Timber was like a winger. That's Heinzer at his best. And I kept thinking, you know, we always talk about goalkeeping coaches having an effect on the keeper and set pieces. Throw in coaches. Yeah, all this, and I'm thinking, well, I'm sorry, but if he ain't coaching them full-backs, then there's something wrong. I'm missing something here because they play exactly like he did because he always, that's why he was such a good full-back for Manchester United.

13:57Like the boy that was a Wigan who did a brilliant job when he was a winger but went as a full-back. Oh, Valencia. Valencia. You know, Valencia was that. He would be a driving winger and yet he ended up being a full-back. Very physical as well. And physical. And both Arsenal full-back. And you can even argue that, you know, Ben White's a physical full-back, you know, and Lewis Skelly can be a physical full-back. So it's really interesting the link between watching a full-back that I, he was one of my favourites of all time as a player, that's come into Arsenal in the coaching part and watching full-backs do exactly what he did as a player.

14:31Yeah, because Califiori, when he came on, galloping down the wing as well. He looks an amazing player this season. I'm delighted because I said he was great when they signed him and then slight scepticism around him last season. Tom, Tom, do yourself a favour. I know you've probably seen him, but watch Gabriel Einzer do that. Oh, no, I remember him. Absolutely, you're definitely right. Absolutely. I mean, Timber's been outstanding. Yeah, he's been brilliant. He's like... But they don't... Gregor, they don't give you anything, Arsenal, do they? No. It's like you have to earn everything. I know we're going to talk probably Liverpool a bit later and, you know, giving gifts away for fun.

15:02Yeah. But Arsenal don't give you anything. Yeah, Bayern's goal was like a thing of beauty. A wonder goal. Yeah, absolutely. A great goal, man. It was a rare snapshot. it's just like a brilliant switch of play and first time beautifully cushioned pass across goal and they're running in the first place same thing yeah it takes something pretty special to get through Arsenal well then Pete thinking about Chelsea facing them this weekend and Tony teed it up earlier talking about the wingers and Esteval Neto up against some of these full backs does Maresca change it again then? how does he approach this?

15:32how does he get something out of Arsenal? because they're playing so well at the moment yeah I wouldn't be surprised if Esteval didn't play as much as he was fantastic against Barcelona. I feel like it's a game for Neto because you're going to need that physicality to compete, as Tony was eloquently explaining. I think it could be the kind of game where, I think what was interesting with Arsenal is, as you said, the way they changed it up between the two halves. They can be quite comfortable without possession. They may be happy to let Chelsea have it in the opening stages. Chelsea aren't always, you know, the more possession they have, the results suggest they don't always win games that way.

16:06I think it'd be interesting in another sense. Who do they start up front? Well, that's a big question. I imagine it would be Gio Pedro. I think Gio Pedro's been carrying some kind of knock. De Laap came on. Don't think he'd send him around to try and rough Arsenal up a little bit? It was important that he got his first goal. I say try. I said try. I said try. I said try, Gregor. Got his first goal against Barcelona. That's a big thing. Gio Pedro may be able to link the play a little bit more. So I imagine maybe he'll get the nod ahead of him. But yeah, we talk about Arsenal and set pieces. I think one thing that we don't really discuss is how much Chelsea have also improved from set-pieces.

16:42Particularly in the early part of the season, I think only Arsenal scored more. At midfield battles, with Caicedo Fernandes, and you look at Rice in there, Zubomendi, there's a lot of good play in there. Yeah, it's going to be a great game, isn't it? I mean, prediction time? Arsenal against Chelsea this weekend? I don't think Arsenal get beat. I just think it's so hard to beat them. You know, as an ex-Chelsea player, and you sort of look, I've got three children that support Chelsea. and they're really hopeful. And they're at home. Yeah, yeah, yeah, of course. But as Peter alluded to with the wide men and how important they are, and Chelsea do have an amazing abundance of, you know, players that can attack from deep areas.

17:21That can get... Fernandes, you know, his season for me has been great. Watching him play for... Yeah, yeah. He just seems to fit into Chelsea way more than he did... You know, we've got how many£100 million players in the game? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Got three? Absolutely loads, loads. Caicedo, Fernandes and Rice. Yeah, Rice. Is there any others? £100 million seems cheap, yeah. just the£300 million players and plenty of other superstars in there as well so I can't chat to you as well Tony's gone first doesn't think that Arsenal will get beat Chelsea-Arsenal at the weekend Greg F let's have a prediction I'd lean towards an Arsenal win just Chelsea could quite easily could quite possibly get a draw but I think Arsenal are still a level above I think it's like about control and consistency and just so many options and so many players who are like stepping up on the big stage like it's still slightly you know Garnaccio's improving but he's still I'm not entirely convinced about him on that very top level yeah Esteval's young and like if he keeps playing like this he can't there's going to be calls for him just to play all the time why are you not playing him why are you not playing him at the moment he can still just about get away with it but I think Arsenal still got loads of injuries Arsenal I know I don't have any injuries loads of players missing Pete draw score draw or nil nil probably score draw yeah great as long as you've got something to write about you're going to the game don't want a nil nil just coming back to Arsenal top of the Champions League rankings I know we've talked about this Gregor the rankings don't mean very much at this point in the season but 15 points 5 wins only 1 goal conceded 14 scored we can say how dominant they are in the Premier League they are dominating in Europe as well I think we've talked about this I'm not going that far but can they compete for both these huge titles can they compete for the Premier League and the Champions League all the way through we talked about the players that they've already got missing and they've beaten Bayern Munich comprehensively I thought yeah yeah absolute no brainer they as you said they conceded their first goal in the Champions League there the defensive foundation is like going to give them a chance of doing it all but yeah we do get giddy you remember when Liverpool were like flying you thought they could win the quadruple and something always happens like football surprises us Liverpool have shown us that exactly but they do have an extraordinary strength and depth they have players who look like they're relishing stepping up to the biggest stage and being part of this team and they've got players who've developed with Arsenal for a long long time but fundamentally for me I just keep coming back to that solid foundation, their defence it's going to give them a great chance What do we think, Chaps?

19:59Arsenal are probably favourites of the Champions League at this point but with the Champions League it's the second half of the season that matters I mean I think this league phase is completely pointless I mean these are nice games to have but I think like with Manchester City making their 10 changes I'd expect that'll be quite common in the next couple of seasons once managers realise we're still going to get through unless you can get the top 8 I know everyone says oh you'll miss a two leg tie after January but that reduces just two games from a run of 30 games or whatever silly numbers of matches these guys have to play.

20:32So, what Bayern will look like now, what PSG look like now, what Barcelona and Real Madrid look like now. PSG were poor this time last year. It wasn't until Christmas. They just break through, and then they go on to win the whole thing. So, it's how you play in the second half of the season. PSG have scored 19 goals this season. We'll talk about them in the second half of the show. Pete, you mentioned it there, so let's bring it in now. Manchester City in ninth. They've dropped out of that top eight place with defeat against Bayer Leverkusen. You said you weren't surprised by them changing the team.

21:00Tony, Gregor you were surprised because of the format I just think format's pretty silly you think you would agree with Pete no not massively surprised I was pretty surprised no I because I thought after the weekend want to get back onto winning ways you know get things going again I mean it's not it's not a team that's like unrecognisable I think I read somewhere it was worth 365 million it's like so what there's definitely still some footballers in there but there's no Erling Haaland I think that's the that's he can't play every minute of every game and if you if you pan out and look at the fixtures I'm sure he does but he can't do it they've got Leeds at the weekend well the Premier League they're in a position of strength they were in a position of strength in the Champions League and like the Premier League they're playing catch up so yeah I agree with Pete like this this format like it's great you know you turned up at Stamford Bridge and there was you know people swarming outside the Barca they see the Barca team bus coming in and it's like a big occasion and event and it's like a huge prestige fixture but you do realise afterwards you're like all that's happened here is they're just delaying the jeopardy until later in the we hope come on what spoils it's great to watch them play and go at it and stuff but then you know Hansi Fleck afterwards is like yeah no we're still I'm positive if they lost this game in the previous iteration it's like you'll end up with exhibition games which is when there's no jeopardy and there's nothing riding on it then they are it's just for the entertainment it's great and you know I went to Carabaug and they drew 2-2 with Chelsea brilliant result for them didn't really matter too much and so once that keeps happening it devalues it it devalues those moments and then you have a problem I was surprised by the you're allowed to be Tony you tell them they're wrong well there is something about you can you can change four or five maybe to change what was it eight or nine in the team it was still as Gregor says a good team but it was a lot of changes it was a change it was enough for people to stand out and go blimey I mean Trafford in goal Donnarumma you know you're resting Donnarumma at this stage when he's clearly the number one.

22:59I'm with you, Tony. I thought it was surprising. A weird one. Because, you know, you've got City saying they've lost two on a spin. Well, you lost to Newcastle in a particular fashion as well, didn't you? Which was all about pace and power in the team and they out-muscled Manchester City. Now, I would have thought... I mean, look, Kovacic and Rodri would normally be in the best 11 at Manchester City. But because of injury, them two have been missing for a while, haven't they? And that's hurt the central midfield of City, I feel. they're not quite as physical nowhere near and keeping the ball they don't quite keep it as well which is an issue with the way Pep wants to play Yeah well we'll see if Manchester City can bounce back against Leeds at the weekend Gregor see if all those changes were worthwhile we're talking about some games on Tuesday let's talk about Monday's game I think we sometimes do this on this show where so much happens in these Champions League weeks you forget to talk about the Monday game at Old Trafford one of the more bizarre and bonkers games of the season Everton winning 1-0 despite having 10 men for most of the game after Idrissa Gueye was sent off for a clash with his own teammate Michael Keane lots of people are already having their say on this but we've got two former players on the show today anything wrong with scrapping with your teammates was it stupid was it a red card what do we think well I've never had a scrap with my team mate bollocks no no chance I've only had one I've only had one scrap in my life and that was in the media oh I see It's just right.

24:26Just us, pesky journalists. I never had... Well, I thought I'd win that one. But, no. No, I'd never... You never fell out with teammates on the pitch. No, I've seen it. No, I've seen it. Oh, yeah, of course you've had words. But, I mean, I did think it was a little bit over the top, the reaction to a red card. And I understand the rules and the world, how it all goes now. I understand all of that. So you don't think it should have been a red card? Well, I... I don't. No. I don't. I mean, come on, Greg. I mean, a lot of people... Would it have been a red card if it had been, say, Gay on Xerxi Yeah of course People keep bringing up this as an argument Obviously it's different when it's your team mate It's a different scenario It's different The only thing I didn't What about Quaker?

25:01It's not someone in the opposite team That you're raising your hand to It's a disagreement between team mates That matters That's important context in this And you had to watch it I know partly because of the angle Only got it to the side But you had to watch it a few times to really see And it's not If it escalated Aidan, you know, they really threw a punch and it was like, you know, it got silly. Of course. But it wasn't a big thing. You can make the case that the red card actually slightly de-escalates that. And the referee's right there. No, you can't. He was already pulled apart. He was pulled apart.

25:32They were pulled apart. The team, Pickford did really well. Super Jordan Pickford. Pickford did really well. Man of the people. Again, what a legend. Look, let's get it right. I was surprised Michael Keane didn't roll on the floor and roll around. That was a big surprise for me. Because nine times out of ten, if it's the opposition player doing it to Brown, the player's going to ground and then making out he's been badly hurt. by a slap I I mean when you look at both managers saying that this is not a thing even the position manager and and Moyes Moyes maybe went too far saying like you know I like it surely what he said in public is not what he's saying you're not going to be happy about it of course not I think he won 1-0 Pete with 10 men for most of it yeah against the club he used to manage yeah absolutely glad you don't make a point sorry just to go away from that right Tottenham were absolutely pulverised for their performance of the Emirates They didn't play well And rightly so You had Liverpool Who got beat by Forrest Same thing Liverpool were Hopeless Whatever Man United Against 10 men Were I thought As poor as I've seen They didn't get beat 4-1 Obviously They get beat 1-0 Are you about to accuse us Of not having a go Because that's literally What I'm just about to do No look Liverpool have been awful Okay We know that Yeah yeah yeah And so were Tottenham Plenty of that's coming Against Arsenal But the performance I'm watching Manchester United And I'm thinking why is Euro picking the ball up in central midfield and then getting it looking to go one way feinting and going back inside they'd done that for so long periods in the game without really I mean they made that Pickford made an amazing amount of saves he made two really top saves one with a header from Xerxes that was a brilliant with his feet gets him round turns him round the pub to think that Man Utd at Old Trafford for the best part of 70 odd minutes couldn't break down Everton this is the damning thing isn't it for Ruben Ammerim so much praise recently for you know he's alighted on the right team got some really great results we have to say at Liverpool and other in other games as well but then when you're still playing a back five against 10 men at home when you're 1-0 down uh Mart who's a top sorry Mart who's a Man United fan got in touch with me to say Tom last night was abject so much for the recent renaissance which proved to be very short-lived the project is being built on sand and the mental toughness and desire necessary in any good side quite simply isn't there I'm no professional pundit but thank god we've got some here how can it ever be the case that a United side at Old Trafford losing but with the opposition down to 10 men face an Everton free kick from inside their own half with 5 men back in a defensive line Gregor any thoughts on that as a professional pundit yourself well I mean we can keep going we can keep discussing this but he's not going to move away from his system he'll sometimes just put on different players in like positions that are not theirs as long as it sticks in his system like so I I don't know what to say What did he do?

28:18He brought on Diallo Was it just after half time? He was playing as a wing back I think Yeah It was Mount who came on And then So the idea was You have more attacking players Fine Mount's played some Really weird positions this season In holes basically But you still have The free centre backs You can still keep your system But again I don't think In this scenario If you then put a central midfielder In one of those positions And just say Look when we got the ball Overload them But that's how you beat 10 men, right? Well, if you play it's obvious the two wing-backs I mean, Palace do it brilliantly.

28:50Palace just overload up in forward position if they need to get a goal. You know, they sit if they're keeping the game tight but when they go they go and get in position. They do it so much better. I mean, it's incredible that Palace have played Man United this weekend who play the system twice as well as Manchester United. So I'm looking forward to that one because I'm thinking ah, now you're getting your formation the way you like to play is pretty similar to Palace but the difference is Palace do this really well and you don't it would be great fun if Glasner changed it to like 4-4-2 just for a laugh and Ketier and Mateta up front big man I don't get I don't get how you can't consider changes because you have to play with purpose in football matches and that means giving problems to the opposition getting bodies into areas to cause problems that didn't happen in that game yeah as you say Tony lots of problems for Ruben Amorim and the listeners do seem to agree with you it's time to take a break there's loads more still to come in the second half of the show so let's have a quick quiz question from Bill Edgar Gregor Robson looks to the skies and summoned some divine inspiration we've already talked about Chelsea against Arsenal this weekend so that's where the inspiration for today's question comes from Cesc Fabregas and Emmanuel Petit both played, both sorry, both moved from Arsenal to Barcelona and then from Barcelona to Chelsea but for which other club did they both appear?

30:05Find out after the break

30:19Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Pete Rutzler, Gregor Robson and Tony Cascarino, French football expert with us straight in with the answer to the quiz question, which was... Monaco. Monaco, correct. Did I tell you I played in France? Yeah, you did. You're not mentioning it very often. Freedom of the city, a non-sea, Tom, don't you know? Slightly better Cockney absent than I tried in the break. Slightly better, not much. before we come back to the Champions League I wanted to just briefly let us all get a bit of therapy off our chest and talk about FIFA's decision to allow Cristiano Ronaldo to play in the early stages of the World Cup I'd say no one shocked by this in any way shape or form anyone surprised by this news that came out this week about Cristiano Ronaldo's ban for his red card against Ireland being suspended anyone shocked at all?

31:06I mean when you look into it the kind of brazen nature of it actually I'm a little bit are you? Well because It seemed beforehand That the two options Were three games Or two games You go okay Clearly he's going to get The two games Like that's the first game No big deal But to suspend them both Which is completely unprecedented Is like Yeah I mean there's a big part Of me actually When you step back a bit And think It's I'm not sure that These should count For ahead of a major tournament I feel like that Yeah That's flawed in itself Like apparently I was reading Moises Caicedo And Otamendi for Argentina Are both banned For the first game Because they got second book in the last qualifier that's crap once in every four years and if you're lucky if you make it there do you think they might have to change that?

31:52surely they've got to make a case of changing that if they allow Ronaldo to be rescinded again Tone I won't be surprised but I mean that would have been better wouldn't it actually if they changed an entirely massive sweeping move and say actually we're going to write off everything that happened at the end of qualifying everyone starts with a clean slate I mean if they'd done it for Ronaldo's benefit it would have still been controversial but at least you could get on board like clearly violent conduct is difficult what you're just thinking everyone's going to be flying into challenges it'd be great entertainment though yeah violent conduct is difficult like to not have it was fine yeah yeah I mean he's thrown a nil though I know but you know Messi got a free pass to the Club World Cup so it's like you know one for one one for the other it's fair no surprises whatsoever stick with the times don't actually believe that just grab a fight never know what gets clipped FIFA will be on to us I'm sure congratulations to Cristiano Ronaldo delighted to see him at the start of the World Cup beat yourself listen if Scotland get Portugal you want him in the team they scored nine without him get him in the team anyway you can keep up to date with all the latest from the World Cup draw at the end of next week Martin Ziegle will be bringing you the latest on the Times website let's go back to the Champions League quick mention for Newcastle winning in this game against Marseille then losing to two goals from Pierre-Emerick Aubameyang, who, by the way, I feel like has been playing football forever.

33:14You know he's only 36? Yeah. Can't believe it. Do you know what? It's amazing, right? And I mentioned this before, right? The fans in France, if you're not doing it, the leaders of the groups will turn up at the training ground and also will sometimes get on the bus, the coach. As in the fan group. Yeah, the leaders. Because I had it twice in Marseille. We had it once on the coach after an away game in Brittany. we had the fans come on the leaders that were allowed on by the owner Bernard Tappé and basically told the players in no uncertain terms what the expectations of you are in Marseille and that's still to this day the Marseille players because the training ground gets a lot of fans to watch training and they make it clear to you and Aubameyang and this is where I'm not condoning their behaviour because it is intimidating and quite full on but they push the players to the limit on what is expected of you as a player.

34:10And this would happen as the car parts you come out the ground if you weren't doing well it was full on. But what you did get is players absolutely realising they don't get away with it from the fans' perspective. So I'm watching Aubameyang and thinking the way he carried an Arsenal driving in his fast car getting out the ground as quick as he can just to get away early you wouldn't... Marseille... It's no surprise to me he's running around like a 25 year old because Marseille fans demand it. and this doesn't happen just in Marseille this will happen at Lyon it'll happen at Rennes and other clubs in France where the fan groups put pressure on players and we I remember when I first sat on the coach and going why are they standing on the coach is someone going to tell them to get off why are they on it and they were like shh say nothing Tony shut up you have to just sit there and I'm thinking and I obviously I'd only just joined the club and I didn't understand what they were talking about but I could see it clearly see from the players players just sat there and took it really And it was all on your next performance.

35:10And look, Marseille's an amazing... So that's why you started running around like a 25-year-old as well. I did, I realised. But if you watch the game, you see everything that's good about Marseille. And Deserbe is doing an amazing job, by the way, in Marseille. And getting the team to run around chase and watching Aubameyang get the goals he's capable of at 36. And it was a tough night for Newcastle. They got the lead, couldn't hold on to it. But that Marseille atmosphere, everything's amplified in Marseille. I don't know if you boys, have you been into the Veloadrome? It's really noisy. And the stadium was designed to be noisy.

35:48So everything feels loud all the time. And that would have been the experience for the Newcastle boys. Do you think we've been a bit, am I being a bit harsh on Newcastle, Gregor, that missed opportunity, this win? Well, they've made changes as well. Yeah. I mean, they're going well in the competition. It's like, you know, you can tie it back to their poor form on their travels. But it was like, I think, was it Burnham who said it was like 10 minutes of madness? It was Pope racing off his line. It was a great finish, to be fair, still. He bent it. It looked like it was going wide and then curled it in.

36:21And then just a great piece of wing play and flashed across the box and a great striker sort of instinctive finish. It's Eddie Howe said, you're playing in the elite competition. You can't switch off for a second. They're going to have moments like this, but they're still in a good position. Yeah, this is the big leagues. Martin Hardy writing on the Times website now about Newcastle officials set to raise concerns with UEFA, Marseille and the French police following some incidents with the Newcastle supporters in that game. Newcastle have issued a strongly worded statement in which they say their fans were indiscriminately assaulted by the police.

36:51You can get the rest of that story on the Times website from Martin Hardy. Let's finish with two of the teams who've been in the spotlight recently for some poor performances. And that continued this week in the Champions League. Maybe I say poor performances. is losing 5-3 a poor performance from Tottenham? Discuss. That's taken as a positive, isn't it? I think the general mood is that they scored goals Does that not come up their season completely that they've conceded nine goals in two games under a manager who's supposed to shore them up and be really solid? PSG and Arsenal, good teams, definitely Tottenham fans.

37:23Absolutely certain. But is going 5-3, not bad, when they were 2-1 up? Does that not say quite a lot about where their season's going? It says something But I suppose it also says That just the fact That they had a goal Is like something that Fans and everyone Are sort of relieved about Really Positives in that You know The goals were shared With Charleston And Kolo Mwani Yeah Like just after After the weekend Anything where there was A bit of intent And a bit of sort of like Positivity And attacking threat Was going to be a positive And like You know Yeah clearly they don't want To be conceded in five goals but they were playing against the European Champions League.

38:03Ferencini, Archie Gray, Lukas Bergwahl, younger midfield, not that Bentenko, Palina, which has been a real focus, lifts the mood a bit. Gave some energy as well. Tom Allnott writing this on the Times website, which he's not yet written it as we're at the time of recording this, so hopefully he sticks to his idea. But this is the one I discussed with him this morning, that making some of those changes does give a bit of added impetus to the team. I thought Gray played quite well. He looks incredibly young, by the way. When he was being interviewed afterwards, he honestly is one of those young players who looks incredibly young.

38:31but I thought he did okay in a midfield against some of the best in the world Vettinia's a handful I mean I know he gets a hat trick but you know Ruiz as well yeah Vettinia I mean terrible analysis from me but quite good football quite good quite genuinely unbelievable some of those finishes great feet yeah so where are we at on Tottenham then are we in the camp that actually more positives from this than negatives yeah undoubtedly undoubtedly after because it was so miserable against Arsenal that just the fact that there was an attack in presence and as I say Colin Mwani's a big one too because they need something else they needed something different in forward areas his goal one where he gets out of his feet quickly what a strike that was and he's at a stop start time I think he's at a dead leg when you say something different what do you mean do you need more players running in behind do you need someone to hold the ball up what do you mean just a different dynamic I mean Charleston's like he feels just like a trier at the moment like you're not really seeing any quality or any idea that he'll like create a goal for himself like he used to you used to see that apart from when he bangs it in from the halfway line against Arsenal other than that I'd say Paulinho created that yeah yeah it was a good finish a great finish but I don't know you can't I don't think Charleson's the guy they're going to hang the hat on if they want to be a decent attacking force and the wide men have been sort of blowing hot and cold as well could have started the season really well and he's not been not been there recently Tell Odeber of like you see them in very brief flashes so to go kind of two up top as it was kind of last night I don't know I think it was a positive night it's definitely positive I think the only thing I mean they're good away from home but you look at the goals and the nature of this game it's transitional we know they're quite good in transition winning the ball high Colin Moani's goal they win the ball high they score set piece the question is when they have the ball they pull them at the weekend they pull them like the ball so maybe that will suit them a bit more but it's again it's what they do those possession structures that's the real question what do you think about their forward line Tony that's what I was going to ask you because the chap's talking about Colin Warnie Solanke's missing when you think about Thomas Frank teams at Brentford like what is it they're missing are they missing a target man are they missing someone to get in behind running behind Brennan Johnson is a wide man that's got great pace that seemingly is in and out of the team yeah Odebeiro as you've mentioned then you've got Kudus who again as Greg has said started really well but it's a good player and can keep hold of the ball with Charleston is not a natural centre forward for me.

40:59I've watched him probably three or four times this year. I always come away with thinking there's more in him. He doesn't show that often enough. He's not, I don't know, I find that all of their players don't really knit together very well. I don't look at them and think, oh you know, you look at sometimes four weeks for wingers and then you look with wide men and centre forwards and now they complement each other. I don't really see that at Spurs. I did think it was a a line in the sand when they lost 4-1 to Arsenal. I thought that was a moment where Thomas Frank's thinking, I felt he'd not doing that again.

41:33You know, we have to offer a threat. I think if you're a Tottenham manager, you have to be prepared to have a go. Now, PSG are dangerous. So, with that, you have to understand that you can't be so open as they were. But there's a middle ground somewhere for Tottenham. I still think their season's been okay. Because comparing to last year where they were all over the shop, Every week it felt like they had, you know, this indifferent performances. I feel like they will be a little bit more steady, but there's a long way to go. I mean, you know, watching them against Arsenal, it was, this squad have been made for a three or four year period.

42:09This squad's been put together, but it's not right yet, or even close to being right. Yeah, Pete says, big game against Fulham at the weekend. Tottenham fans would like a couple of goals and a clean sheet, I'm sure. We'll see what they can get up to when we analyse that show on Monday. let's finish then with Liverpool speaking about teams with players that aren't knitting together very well another defeat for Arnes Lott another defeat at Anfield another remarkable game this one really I mean I thought Liverpool started badly but then were okay in the first half but then to lose the game 4-1 I mean just kind of sums up this season as it's going for them doesn't it really yeah it's spiralling a little bit more that's the feeling now the confidence is gone to be fair the reaction after 1-0 that's quite encouraging yeah to come back into the game.

42:53It's just... And could have been 2-1 up, you know, had other chances, TK's run for the maybe penalty. Once that starts happening, you start the worry and then the mistakes keep happening again. And then, you know what I mean, the second half, the spaces they were conceding, the nature of some of the goals, the spaces, the lack of recovery runs, the almost indecision. I think like maybe a month or so ago, I talked about sort of, you know, doubt and you guys want to know this better than me, but no one trusts each other. It feels very evident when you watch them. they don't trust each other they're not sure what they're going to do and that applies to everyone when you've got Salah who was so reliable you can't really trust that he's going to score he's going to change something you've got Van Dijk making bizarre mistakes you can't trust him in the same way that's very difficult to overcome yeah chaps on that idea that Pete's there about trust in a team when things are going badly yeah it's a very valid one I wrote loads of things down last night that I didn't like I didn't like the fact that Curtis Jones tried to chip the ball in his own area like it was a cross for the centre forward that he's trying to play past his own 18-yard box.

43:54A little dink. A floated ball. Absolute madness. Van Dijk doing a slam dunk. He thinks he's playing basketball. And then debating whether it's handball. It's the most obvious handball I think I've ever seen. I see the fourth goal is a prime example of they ever pull a 3-1 down, we lose the ball, and then suddenly PSV come and they literally go. And you see, as you're watching on the TV, you can see McAllister having the parachute on and going backwards, and Van Dijk has got a similar parachute on, because he gets beaten quite easily as well. And then they've got five bodies arriving in the 18-yard box to score the fourth goal.

44:30And it's like Liverpool players are left in their way. Anybody who runs at Liverpool, you're going to cause them problems. Curtis Jones is not a right-backer. Now, Gomez might be injured, but I don't know why he's on the bench. Why are you not playing him right-back? Or even centre-half and not Canote. because there's so many problems wrong, Tom, that we could do a whole podcast, and we've done probably that over the last few weeks about Liverpool. And there's just so much wrong. And it's not one fix. There's no one fix for Liverpool. It's a list of which ones are the priority. And I would say Salah's a major question mark at the moment because I don't know if I'd want to play him because we're seeing a Mo Salah that's nowhere near.

45:12Yes, he's been a great player, but at the moment I'm seeing a player that's not affecting the game at all so you drop him extraordinary images of him last night just standing on the pitch afterwards just his face kind of like staring off into the middle distance and then his eyes flickering around his other teammates and they're all looking at each other sort of thinking yeah what's going on here and like who's going to be the person to make this change yeah and none of them know none of them know like that is an issue Sal is an issue but there's no question the biggest issue is it's the defence yeah like they've gone behind in 10 of the last 12 games I did think of you when I saw the team and they put Curtis Jones at Rypack it's like oh I need to listen to Monday's show Gregor talking about the full backs but the problem then the problem that falls on from that is there is actually no solution to the defence like Kirk is yeah Kirk is looks like you know this is he needed perfect perfect like circumstances to make this step up and it's not been that way and he's drowning I said the other day Robertson as much as I would love him to be is not the answer either anymore he might be better but he's not and they don't have anyone at right back so they're playing people like Curtis Jones or they're having to play Subozlai and then Konati like my goodness my god.

46:27He's got a rick every game it's just his confidence is shattered and then Van Dijk suddenly you look at him and like I hate I know I see people now saying immediately that him and Sal have lost their legs, the legs have gone I hate it when just after last season and being imperious it can happen that quickly but I don't I'm still not sure that's the thing that's the thing to go to but he's turning and running back he's been put in the situation more often where he's having to turn and run back towards his own goal and then you look at him and you go oh yeah he is like 35 he's been exposed so the defence is a huge huge huge issue and they don't have any solutions you think even Leone you know the Italian young defender he looked like a Rolls Royce for that first hour against Southampton in the Carabao Cup and then there is ACL Now you look at that now and go That was a huge, huge moment in their season Because if you've not got Gomez fit He's gone, you've let Gerald Quansa go in the summer Who else have you got?

47:25No one So they're snookered They're snookered Interesting that you put Kyles Jones at right back, he ended the game with Gravenberts In defence, it's quite clear that's the area I remember When I did Liverpool, when they went to Galatasaray And Schaubersley was right back and you think, how is this sustainable? He's been their best player this season. Exactly, because it disrupted that midfield and it's symptomatic of everything else. Just thinking, as you were saying there, I mean, that disruption at the back, I mean, if you're Mo Salah and you've got Curtis Jones behind you, you've got Dominic Sobisla, I know Frimpong's injured, Bradley's been injured.

48:00It's just that whole thing's disrupted, isn't it, on that side? Just wanted to ask a quick question, Tony. Obviously, we mentioned the tragic passing of Diogo Jota a couple of times. Actually, a listener has got in touch to ask specifically about the effect of it happening pre-season. and how after the triumph of last season, when one of your teammates dies in such tragic circumstances, how that can kind of really hit the players so hard, which obviously I'm sure it did, but how he wonders whether the fact that it happened in pre-season, you just essentially your season is marred the whole way through before you've even started.

48:30Yeah, I mean, it's a really tough one, unless you're in that environment. But of course, you have to have enormous empathy for the situation. I'm just more that, you know, they didn't feel like they galvanised themselves to win this again for Diago that's not come across that feeling unless they're all shell-shocked I don't know I mean clearly they would have wanted to use it that way it's just easier said than done and like it's just a cocktail of things and that's a big ingredient you can't escape it now it's just you look at it you just imagine I just remember that with Salah and things you know players that have played with him for a long time you know you talk about him looking shell-socks Andy Robertson's travelled in with him didn't he Andy Robertson's like you know it's quite emotional interview after the Scotland in fact as a moment of glory like to reference that was quite telling I just feel like you know so many dynamics changed in the summer like human sort of personal dynamics and that was a major one clearly like it goes without saying and you can't it's such a difficult thing to discuss actually because you you know Liverpool I hope this doesn't sound wrong but Liverpool can't use this as an excuse either Slott has said that himself they can't do it and they're not going to do it I don't think they'll discuss it really so they will be in closed doors and they might have done it and there might come moments in time still now they might have done in recent weeks they might do it soon just bring it up again and try and get the emotion of it out but it's such a really difficult thing to discuss because you can't use it but it's there it's hanging it's hovering and it will for the whole season beyond so I was saying to Gregor and it is a slightly different one because Sheffield United lost George Bulldog the start of last season but that was before he'd left before the start of the season but you know it had an effect on the Sheffield United team it sort of drove them and you'd like to think I'm pretty sure it's so tough to answer the effect of Jota it was clearly very deep profound upset within a club.

50:41But again, when you have so much change happening in the summer and things start to spiral out of control and no one can seem to stop this. The manager's spinning plates on his team. He doesn't quite know who to select, who's best for what position, who's playing well. It seems like every player's playing poorly except for Dominic Schabosla. The other thing, clearly the emotional resonance of that is the biggest thing, but they lost him as a player and you think we were talking before about Diaz and you look at those two guys and what they were they were brave and they were tenacious yeah tenacious they were like if they were in your forward line like they hounded in Harry they did the other side of the game really well that's Nunes as well you could probably Nunes 2-0 yeah so like they just seem a little but there's lack of sort of dynamism athleticism and bite that there was always a really key characteristic of Liverpool's great teams in recent years do you know just on your turn it's kind of been eroded I watched him at Brentford the year before and he got injured and he was out for the rest of the sort of nearly the end of the season he was the best player on the pitch for Liverpool that day and he was chasing everything battling with centre-halves and he just set everything off all the time he went off injured in that Brentford game and they lost him for quite a little and their form dipped a bit Liverpool because again going back to that having tenacious players in teams I even say Harvey Elliott would do that coming off the bench when he did that for Liverpool so if you look at Harvey Elliott coming off the bench Nunes coming off the bench you saw Jota do that Diaz them four were all tenacious players that pressed quickly hustled and made it difficult Liverpool have lost that completely now it is extraordinary you know Arnie Slott was saying at the start of the season that you know I know you might basically I know you might laugh at me and it sounds crazy after we've spent £400 million but we're shorter or lighter than we were last season and now you look at they don't really fill in the bench in this game and they've got you know 17 year old and Trey Naoni and like they don't really have that many options to turn to so he was right and that's actually like when you step back it's easy to say with hindsight because we were all looking at their squad and lauding it and saying my god this is like they're taking a huge step forward after being Premier League champions but it's been mismanagement it's been really badly mismanaged like he's been left exposed in certain areas of the team and they've lost characteristics that no one really seems to have thought were that important at the time but ok, on that is there not any does any of the blame lie on slot as well because his team obviously not playing to how he's expecting them to, he's meant to deliver he's meant to find a solution of course, I mean, you're the manager of Liverpool and you go, what was it what is it now, 8 defeats in the last 12 like, that's it's not a record you can have as a Liverpool manager we have to consider all the context and you know West Ham the weekend yeah West Ham away then Sunderland at home and then Leeds away there are three fixtures that you're going before Inter Milan in the Champions League there are three fixtures that you're going nine points normally wouldn't you but not now I don't I'm going back to what Peter said about trusting Liverpool at the moment I don't think Liverpool fans have any trust in the team capable of getting results at the moment it's now just a huge psychological battle for me like they have to you know everyone says you look at everyone around they go you need to get back to basics and like what does that mean like it's the truth but also it's kind of meaningless it's like you've got to focus on doing your own job and doing performing your own role well and then and hope everyone around you does the same but there's not the same freedom there's not the same like expressing yeah just just a little point on slot because i do think when this run started the way he was talking about the issues it did struck to me just watching what he was saying and obviously he's responding to what journalists are asking him so they may put a problem to him and he'll say, yes, I agree.

54:36It just felt, and it has, you know, and now we're looking at him and he's like, okay, this is really difficult. It's all about calming the tension now but it just felt like he was jumping from one thing to another. He was talking, I remember talking about set pieces, he was talking about different absences, talking about the squad and quibbling how much they'd spent. It just felt he was moving from one thing to another and that just gave an overall impression of floundering and maybe that was just for us and it's on the outside but if there's not that clear sort of narrative so this is what we're doing it just even the Jones thing even this it's like okay well let's try Jones there it just doesn't feel in control and that's that doesn't help I think the the dynamic and I mean that's that's just one part of a broader issue and this is not clearly it's not an easy job now but yeah huge huge challenge for Arnie Slott Tony you mentioned we could have done a whole show on Liverpool we nearly have done a whole show on Liverpool this season I'm sure and there'll be plenty more to discuss on Monday's show, but we'll leave it there for now.

55:31Tony Cascarino, Pete Rutzler and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. As I say, we'll be back on Monday. See you then.