Is Arteta too cautious? And what's happened to Man City?

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0:58Arsenal a point against Stoke City. Sorry, Manchester City. But who the heck was the bald fraud in the City dugout at the Emirates and what has he done with Pep Guardiola? Plus, we'll be discussing Liverpool's two-on-one in the Merseyside Derby, a precious win for Ruben Amram and Manchester United against Chelsea and more woes for Graham Potter and Unai Emery. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me on today's show, we have the Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd, the Times London football reporter Tom Alnott and joining us later to discuss the Merseyside Derby, will be speaking to the Times' Northern Football correspondent, Paul Joyce.

1:32First, to the Emirates. What is going on, Alison? You were there. Explain what has happened to Manchester City and what has happened to Pep Guardiola. Indeed. Well, I was sat there and you... I suppose you go in with some sort of preconceived idea of what sort of match you're going to see. And then slowly I began to think, hang on a minute, they haven't got a lot of possession here, Manchester City. This will change. Will this change? Which minute was this? It was halfway through the first half. And so initially you're thinking, well, they've scored an early goal and they lost 5-1 at the Emirates last season.

2:13Maybe this is just some admirable caution from someone and maybe Pep hadn't planned all along to cede possession, but if you score an early goal at the Emirates, it's a good way of proceeding for a few, I don't know, a few five-minute segments maybe. And I sort of got slightly obsessed by it, if I'm honest. When are they going to become Manchester City again? And they didn't. So I started looking up the possession stats and it ended up, it was on course to be the lowest possession stat for Pep Guardiola ever in his career. but then again the previous lowest possession stat was against Arsenal two years ago so he clearly feels this wasn't just about scoring early and responding to that this is in his head on how to deal with a team managed by Mikel Arteta which you could throw out as an insult to Arteta or deference to him because there are some teams if you cede possession, you are going to get slaughtered.

3:20And there are some that don't quite run with the baton and Arsenal are one of those. So I know they got a late equaliser, which speaks to not giving up and that's fantastic. But I did feel that Arsenal was slow to really clock on to what was happening. And with their wealth of attacking options, if they'd started with them or come on earlier, they might have been able to punish a rather passive city side. But I didn't sit there thinking, oh, this is deeply disappointing by Pep Guardiola. I was really impressed that someone we've come to know so well and think we understand his football does something surprising.

4:05More than surprising. It was a humble approach to football in a way that you don't expect from someone who's won as much as he has. and his demeanour afterwards was one of humility and lightheartedness. It was a bit like being transported to a parallel universe, I will give you that. But who came out, I mean, it's a draw, so who comes away feeling the happier? I would suggest, overall, it has to be Manchester City because they'd been playing in Europe on the Thursday night. he decided to put consistency and faith giving the players faith above tinkering he's a tinker of a manager but he played the same starting XI for three matches in succession he's trying to build a new sense of composure and authority and superiority from a difficult start to the season and they'd had two league defeats from this.

5:08So I feel he's adapting and you all know how I feel about managers who are not pragmatic. So this was ultimate pragmatism in a sense, I felt. So I feel that he came out of it, well, and you're going to tell me that's madness given how strong Erling Haaland looked and they could have scored eight, aren't you? No, I just found a streak of pragmatism after 601 games as a manager. It's quite interesting. Let's just read out a few stats, first of all, just to paint the picture. 32.8 % possession was the lowest a team managed by Pip Guardiola has ever had in a top-flight league game. Eight touches in the penalty area was the fewest touches in the opposition box in 347 Premier League games under Guardiola.

5:56Even 295 passes were the fewest they've attempted in a Premier League game, overseen by Guardiola. Five shots was the lowest attempted in 21 months. Tom, where did Manchester City go?

6:11Tom Allnutt: I like the idea that they were reacting to Arsenal, but I also wonder if he's reacting to the squad that he has now and the team that he has now at City. He built it. Yeah, but it's a new squad. It's a new team, new players. I think from what he's seen in recent months and probably in the last few games, is a team that maybe isn't ready to play the high-wire pressing game that we associate with Pep. And then maybe he thinks that at this point in the sort of cycle of this team, they need to be slightly more protective. And don't forget, they went to Arsenal and got hammered 5-1 like only a few months ago.

6:45Tom Allnutt: So I think if he thought, let's go there and play the sort of, you know, pure sort of pet ball that we know, then maybe he would have thought, well, we're going to get hammered, you know. So I wonder if it's less about sort of respect to Arsenal, although I think that's there. I think it's more about him adjusting at this moment in the season and he needs more time with the players to kind of make. I mean, he said after the match, didn't he, that he said that, you know, the pressing isn't right yet, you know, in terms of the energy levels and also the cohesion. And I think that's a big part of it.

7:13Tom Allnutt: And it's also, I think, with Guardiola generally, like if you look at his career, we think of him as kind of the ultimate sort of Puritan. But actually, like, he has changed. You know, he has moved. Like, his City team is very different to his Barcelona team. His Bayern team is very different to his Barcelona team. And he tends to react in real time, not just to sort of the developments in the game, which often he leads. He's very good at sort of detecting what's happening in the wider game and the wider trends. But also, I think, adjusting to the players he has in his squad. I mean, I saw a sort of video in 2 the other day and someone said to him, you know, what's more important, system or players?

7:47Tom Allnutt: And he said, it's both, always both. You know, and you'd say to him, you know, you'd say he's probably one of the most kind of system managers in the history of the game. But he has always had this recognition that it's also about the players you have. and I suspect he looks at the squad he has now with Donnarumma, Reinders in midfield, Haaland up front and he thinks is this a passing team? Is it a pressing team? Or is it actually a team that can hurt people direct, going a little bit more full throttle? And if you've got Erling Haaland you can play direct and full throttle and you can play on the break and all you need is one clever pass which is what happened in this game and Erling Haaland running through is...

8:26I liked your analogy in the match report of him being like, you know, a bigger boy playing against kids from a few years younger at school or something. When you've got kids playing football, you will suddenly see there's a team. They'll be like eight, nine, ten years old. And there's one lad who'll be two foot taller than anybody else, sprouting a moustache. And it's not his fault. He's just going through puberty.

8:48Tom Allnutt: You go to their parents and you say, is he definitely a year-told? Is he really? Yeah. Or is he at university? And it must be really awful if you're the kid. and you're the parents of the kid. And they are the eight. They've just grown faster. And he does look like a growth spurt player. He is, he's just not like anybody else on the pitch. And I suppose not having seen hours and hours of live Man City, it still feels like a bit of a sharp intake of breath moment to see him in full flow like that. And you do think, you do have huge sympathy for the keeper facing him, the defenders trying to catch up with him and what to do with him.

9:27It's just, it is, it is a force, absolute force of nature.

9:31Tom Allnutt: You can see Gabriel when he was chasing him and he was sort of shouting at Saliba, you know. It was like, I'm not going to catch him. You need to come and get him. Come and get him. Come and get him. And they were just all clearly helpless. I mean, I thought it was an absolutely exhilarating goal. You know, I think like we talk a lot these days about sort of the lack of long shots going in the top corner. we talk a lot about beautiful passing moves, set pieces, goals but actually I think sometimes we forget that sometimes the most exhilarating goal you can see is to see someone sprint at that pace with that power and then to have that sort of deafness of touch at the end to execute, I think it was first class Just finally on this, the points you raised Tom about Guardiola being someone who has adapted throughout his career Ham's actually wrote about this at the weekend in a preview which was really interesting, people can read that on the Times website and clearly the team has the way the team has been rebuilt has kind of lent towards more speed, more kind of dynamism, threatened transitions, I'm not disputing any of that but to go to this extreme you know despite all the changes he's made in his tactical philosophy over the course of his career he's always wanted to be the main protagonist or however you would describe it the team that have the ball and dominate possession and this is such a contrast.

10:52Tom Allnutt: It's extraordinary. I would say the extremeness of it is probably a lot to do with the context and the game state. I think he probably was very prepared to play in this way, but to take it to the extreme of the lowest possession in his career in a league game, I think for it to go that way is probably to do with the fact that they scored early and therefore they had a lead to protect. Also, they know that Arsenal struggling to create chances, the line-up they had, and also they're away at the Emirates. I think a lot of the extremity of the stats, I would say, is probably more to do with the context of the game.

11:25Tom Allnutt: But I do think they were much more prepared than they would be normally to play like that. And ultimately it worked, didn't it? You used to always see the Man City, even if they had a lead, they would keep the ball. They'd make the opposition run around and chase them. They would just pass them to death, keep it in the corner sometimes. So many times you've seen that happen. But look at the other lows, look at the other bottom five of possession of Pep Guardiola's career. against PSG in 2025 pretty good team Arsenal 23 Arsenal 21 I think it was Arsenal 26 three or four great teams there you know so it's not I think Pep would probably say it's not just us it's the opposition as well OK was he right to do it against this Arsenal team then because as I said at the start for the first 45 minutes a lot of people criticised Arteta's team selection played a midfield tree of Mikel Moreno Martin Zubomendi and Declan Rice Trossard instead of Eze like was this the right approach and what did you make of Arsenal's approach?

12:23Well I mean that's when Arteta got a bit chippy when it was suggested that he didn't do the right thing I mean he is going to be constantly accused of being on the defensive side of things cautious as opposed to I mean already we're really early in the season and the narrative has developed that he's not going to catch Liverpool unless he's braver than he is. He put safety first and it did look a bit like a safety first line-up or whatever. This is where I think Pep was also clever because in Donnarumma, you say Pep likes to control things. He controlled the visuals of the game because Donnarumma was a sight to see.

13:07He was amazing. And what was he doing? He was thwarting Arsenal at the thing they do really well, which is set pieces. so there was nothing wrong with Declan Rice's corner kicks. They were great, they were threatening and then this giant of a keeper sort of very calmly and balletically punches well clear, very authoritatively, really commanded his area and I think that had an impact on Arsenal as well that they have a wealth of talent on the pitch but they do rely heavily on the threat they pose from set pieces and they could tell very early on it was going to be very difficult to beat Donnarumma.

13:43And that affected the vibe of the Arsenal team. But there is no doubting that when Eze came on, Arsenal went to a different level of creativity. And it was Eze's beautiful past that led to the equaliser, which obviously you're going to say, well, why didn't you start him? There was no evidence from what we've seen of Eze in an Arsenal shirt that he wasn't your, surely your top pick, really. I mean, I can understand Saka not getting 90 minutes because he's coming back from an injury. And Maduweki's been on fire. And Maduweki was actually the most eye-catching, to continue what you said on the previous podcast about when you've been watching Arsenal Live, Gregor, Maduweki's very eye-catching.

14:29And it's strange in a way, but he was the one player, the one Arsenal player who was really up for it. He wanted the ball. He was calling for the ball. He was on his toes. he was trying to do little flicks and things nothing really came off in the sense that there was no clear chance created from any of his crossing but he was eager to have the ball and run at City so I don't think, I wouldn't criticise I really wouldn't criticise him from starting ahead of a not quite fully fit sacker at all, that was fine I think it's really Eze not coming in at the start with the quality he brings, given the quality he showed at the end it meant everyone went home thinking oh deep sigh if only Eze had been on from the start Yeah there's just Tom this kind of suggestion that it was a wasted 45 minutes Arsenal I think took 31 minutes to have a shot, didn't land one on target until first half stoppage time Martin Samuels column this morning as you can read on Time's website basically saying football is about starters not finishers and he saying that he didn't pick his strongest team the team that would go out and win the game as opposed to not lose it, do you think that's fair?

15:37easy in hindsight

15:38Tom Allnutt: I feel like this this narrative around Arteta is I think now slightly overblown like I I personally think that there is it's valid to say that I think Arsenal last season when there was an over-reliance on set pieces and that they became a little bit stodgy and they were they were always thinking about corners and and they sort of lost sight of how important it is to create chances essentially because you know we got all very obsessed with this idea they need a striker and number nine but actually one of the big problems of Arsenal is they don't really create enough. How many chances did they create in this game?

16:11Tom Allnutt: Two or three? I mean, it really wasn't a lot, considering where City were in terms of their tactics. And I do think with Arteta that ultimately there is that, but they drew it home to City and I don't think that they necessarily had to sort of go out from the start and play all their attacking players. I mean, you think about, they could have started with Eze, fine, but did they sign Eze to play as a sort of like in the midfield three they're probably more thinking about him playing on the left of the front three the Marino-Rice combination I think is not quite right but this idea that they have to sort of go all guns blazing in these games against the big teams ultimately Arsenal didn't lose the title I don't think last season because of their performance in the big matches it was because they lost points against the likes of Brentford and West Ham and Bournemouth and you know the middle rung teams to play against City I mean you know we're praising Pep Guardiola for his pragmatism you know and saying well you do get it how great it was that he was you can't win playing deep and then if Arteta doesn't kind of do that then we're saying it's not enough they need to kind of win win win all out attack yeah they can't win can they I think with Arteta the problem he has I think people are quite quick to jump on him I think there's a slight sort of people aren't really on his side are they I don't think I think there's something with Arteta that winds people up you know it's calling the dog win it's planting the tree it's adjusting the tunnel it's maybe even goes back to the idea that But his first big job in management is Arsenal.

17:37Tom Allnutt: He got a sort of plum job with City under Pep Guardiola. Do people think everything's come a bit too easy for him? He's a bit too kind of, everything's a bit too textbook. He winds people up. I think people are ready for this narrative, maybe slightly more than actually it is, that it's accurate. But I mean, I still think Arsenal are a great team. And they've come out with this really tough start. Let's look at this season. The start of the season, they've had to play Liverpool. They've got Newcastle away next. They've got City. this is a really really rough start for Arsenal if they come out of it and they're still in touch with Liverpool and I think five points are still in touch then they're still there people are writing them off at this point of the season saying that they're not attacking enough but they're still there they were at home and it was a relatively passive performance and the reason they got the equaliser great skill but it was the one moment that City had a relatively high line so it was a mistake by City that gave them the opportunity to score.

18:38The feeling, I think, around the stadium, and people were shouting this out, was, you know, we're going to wait till Tuesday night before you score a goal, because they weren't changing anything. They were allowing City to set the tempo and the patterns of play.

18:57There isn't that sense of being in control given their stature and how much they've spent and the options available. It just felt, in a sense, they got a little bit lucky to get the point because of that. City were very disciplined for a new system. But if you look at the goal, the back line has just slightly become adventurous. And they've gone on the counter ahead of doing that. So it was very bad management of protecting a lead in the dying minutes, which was stupid. But it was two mistakes made by City as opposed to Arsenal forcing the error.

19:37Tom Allnutt: But it's difficult to score against a team like City who are playing like that. I remember City had it very difficult to score against Arsenal with 10 men playing like that. And everyone was sort of saying, you know, Arsenal should have gone out and tried to win the game. I wonder what Ruben Dias is thinking of this now because many times he's come out and criticised teams for not playing. and now he's suddenly sitting behind the ball head and everything around the box Penny for his thoughts What do you think Greg Harman? What's your view? Do you think it's I don't know I'm with you I feel like there's a move Craigie we've spoken about this for about a year there's a move away from like dogmatists and you have to be flexible because of the strength of opponents like their preparation and analysis and fitness and athletics and all these things but it's extraordinary to see like the arch dogmatists really in Guardiola I know he said he's changed, but the guy who everyone looked up and praised and idolised changed so remarkably.

20:36So make such a marked change in his approach to a game, even if it's one game. You never thought you would see this. But it did. The overall feeling was, after the press conference, that he'd had a bit of a joke. It was all a bit of a laugh for him. It was almost revenge for that ridiculous backs-against-the-wall performance by Arsenal that the Etihad, which everyone was like, wow, all they want is to protect, they don't want to discreate. It felt like maybe this is how he keeps interested. He found it funny. Well, one final stat. City have won seven points from their opening five Premier League matches, which is their worst run after five games since 2006-07 under Stuart Pearce.

21:24So whatever we say about the approach, we mixed results so far.

21:28Tom Allnutt: I mean, this is part of the problem, isn't it, as well with Arsenal? You don't know, are they playing against a really top Man City team? And you think, well, a point at home is not bad. Or are they playing against a Man City team that lost to Spurs already, that lost to Brighton, and actually it's not a good point because they're at home to a team who are going to finish, you know, outside the top four. Thing will tell. Maybe they're just destined to always be deferential to one another. maybe anyway Tom let's go to Brighton next where you saw Spurs come from behind in what Thomas Thomas Frank described as the best performance of the season despite it being a two-all draw with Brighton do you agree?

22:06and they've already

22:06Tom Allnutt: beaten Manchester City indeed yeah some good results this season so how is this their best performance of the season? no one reigns beating Manchester City at the moment please explain I mean they played very well on the ball you know they were good Spurs on the ball I'd say they I wouldn't say where they dominated the match, where they dictated the match in terms of the sort of flow and possession. It was a really great game to watch, actually. It was a 2-2 match, real sort of throwback, sort of reigned for the last 20 minutes, and it was end-to-end, really physical battle, both teams going really hard.

22:35Tom Allnutt: And it was really interesting. It was two very contrasting styles. Spurs were very happy to kind of be on the ball and to sort of dictate. Brighton clearly were playing this game, where they were sort of happy to sit back and soak up the pressure and then hit Spurs in the break. It's funny, that could be switched too. You feel like Spurs could play that way. And these are two flexible teams then. Two flexible teams, two very malleable teams. I agree with that. And I think they both sort of decided this was the way to go. And if anything, Brighton were probably more dangerous. But Spurs were in charge of the game.

23:01Tom Allnutt: And I think there were two things that probably Frank really liked. One was that sort of dominance on the ball. But two, I think Frank's number one priority in these early weeks at Spurs is not to play with the attack and to worry about goals and to think about, you know, are we good enough at creating chances? Because he assumes that this team is actually quite good at that. You look at the stats from last season, Angers' team, Spurs in terms of goals and chances, they're right up there with the top five, top six teams. Not really a problem. The real problem, as we all can probably guess, is the defence.

23:32Tom Allnutt: You know, giving away goals at bad times, throwing away leads, not enough clean sheets. And I think in these early weeks, what Frank has been trying to build in is, yes, a rock-solid defence. And we've seen, you know, four clean sheets so far, which is a real transformation in terms of where they were from last season, but also instilling that sort of resilience and that grit. And I think he probably looked at this game away at Brighton, good team, 2-0 down, was very much the sort of game I think last season that would have got away from Spurs. And even in the press conference afterwards, he brought up unprompted, I think, the game this very fixture last season where Spurs were 2-0 up and they folded in the second half and lost 3-2.

24:12Tom Allnutt: And actually, this almost sort of felt like the reverse. It wasn't a brilliant win, it wasn't even a win, but it was the fact that they kept going, got a late goal, sort of almost scrapped towards a 2-2 draw, which I think is a decent result. I think that was what gave him the real satisfaction to feel like this team is developing a real spine. Do you get the impression Spurs are developing with each passing match? Do you see it as flatlining? or is it each performance do you see something better? Performance and players you know I think already you can see some of the players are going up levels I mean I thought Kudus was fantastic and every time I see him you know for Spurs he gets better and better I think he was the best player on the pitch on Saturday and you can see he's kind of growing in belief and stature in the team and I think Pru Carioglu yeah Carioglu had a tough time I love that guy too he's not probably that much of a fan of the fandom it was a good battle though it was a good battle between them and I think that's Frank's big job as well yes it's instilling that kind of defensive steel that Spurs didn't have but I also think there were a lot of players in that squad last season who were playing one or two notches below their possible best and he needs to kind of go in and get these sort of youngsters I'm thinking like Brendan Johnson Ben Tankur Kudus clearly Pedro Poro they've got a lot of players there who have the kind of talent and they can go up levels, you know, and I think we're already kind of seeing that with Frank.

25:44So in this game then, who set the agenda? Which team... Was Thomas Frank going into that feeling like, I have to just concentrate on being solid for a portion of the game and then because they conceded, they changed? Or did you feel he stuck to his plan for that match throughout? Was there pragmatism within the 90 minutes?

26:09Tom Allnutt: I think the plan was from the beginning to dominate the ball in this match, I mean right from the beginning Spurs were the better team, you know, but equally I think Brighton were happy to say well yeah you can have the ball and we'll just, because they played a very high line which was quite interesting that was the difference I think in this match it was almost slightly sort of Angesk, you know where they're sort of hugging the halfway line and there's twitching and stuff and sort of Van de Ven and Romero having to kind of turn their heels and sprint back and chase after kind of Minter and Mitoma, there was a lot of that and I think Frank was sort of caught between this idea of squeezing the space and dominating the game and not allowing Brighton to kind of feel comfortable on the ball, but then it did leave those gaps in behind.

26:47Tom Allnutt: So in that sense, I think, that was the difference in this match. How did Frank change in this game? He basically played a really high line, and you looked at it and you thought, well, is that working? Because Brighton are getting in a lot over the top and through and in behind. But actually, I think he felt that it was worth the risk because Spurs were so high that they were kind of squeezing that space and it allowed them to dominate the game. I think he was pleased most with the aggression and the physicality and going back to those old school basics almost. What about Brighton? One win in five against Man City, who everyone loves playing.

27:21Draws with Fulham and Spurs, defeats at Bournemouth and Everton. Fabian Hurtzeler kind of... I don't know, last season was his first season in the Premier League because, you know, a big step up for him. but it's not been a brilliant start for Brayden has it despite some kind of encouragement

27:40Tom Allnutt: No and there were some wobbles last season weren't there in the second half of the season I remember I went there I can't even remember who they were playing but it must have been March time and there were some boos as well and that was sort of like we think of Brighton as a very happy and harmonious place but I think there was at that point some dissatisfaction with what was going on I think Herzler it's easy to say very young but I think one of the things is that he's very intense. You know, he's a very intense manager and you talk to people around Brighton and I think there is sometimes this sense that does he sometimes need to let the players have a bit more breathing space?

28:18Tom Allnutt: You know, in terms of his methods and his tactics, even just kind of, I don't know, almost kind of Arteta-esque, you know, where it's so obsessed with the kind of minor details that maybe sometimes the team feels almost a little bit too carefully choreographed, you know? and then maybe they do need to let go a little bit. I think they played well in this game. I think they'll come out of it like Spurs. Both teams, I think, were fairly happy with the draw because I think ultimately Brighton, they create a lot of chances. And I think they'll be kicking themselves because even at 2-1, they had two or three good chances to put the game away.

28:55Tom Allnutt: It's been a mixed start, hasn't it? You know, you look at the results they've had, it's been sort of, it has been mixed. But I think they'll look at this and think, actually, we played pretty well. Could have won, didn't. but it's a decent platform to build on. Just finally, Carlos Balaba, who's taken off at half-time, and you sort of, in your Sunday Times report, you can have referenced it, the manager suggested, his head might have been turned, and he's kind of gone off the boil a bit since being linked so heavily in the summer with Manchester United. Yeah, he didn't play well in the first half.

29:24Tom Allnutt: I mean, I was looking at the stats afterwards, and I think he gave the ball away eight times, and you think he made something like 17 passes. You know, it's a sort of... It's not a good ratio. It's not a good ratio. You know, sort of, you know, base midfielder. I think it's worth saying that Herzler, very much the tone of the press conference afterwards was he needs support. You know, he needs our help. We want to get behind him. This can happen with a young player. You know, you have that interest from Manchester United. You have a big offer. It doesn't happen. It's very easy for a player to feel deflated about that.

29:51Tom Allnutt: And it's up to us. It's our job and our responsibility to kind of bring him back in. But this wasn't the first time. You know, he's been taken off now twice at halftime. He didn't start against Bournemouth. I think the other two games he's come off in the second half so it has been a very mixed start to the season for him I mean, what do you think? You were saying that you think as a young player he has always been a little bit up and down. Yeah, there's some games you can see him where he just runs over the opposition and he's so dynamic and so powerful and full of energy and then there's other games where he looks like he needs to be reined in a bit and yeah, I feel like he's a bit raw.

30:29I saw when he was linked to Manchester United in the summer you thought there's a player with a huge potential but I don't know if he's the guy even at a club like Manchester United in the position they're in you want to hang your hat on at such a young age so undoubtedly huge potential but he's a bit raw still sometimes

30:44Tom Allnutt: I mean it was interesting Hursler's kind of approach to it to be so open about it you know someone just said why did you take off for labour at half time and he said oh he's tired and then there's sort of a follow up question and there was a huge long answer about you know young players and why he had the offer and possibly we need to support him he's not a machine and I wonder, does the player appreciate that? Do they want that all out in the open? But I think ultimately it came across as a real show of support. We understand where you're at with this. We get that as a young player, you can be distracted by this kind of thing and we'll give you the time to come back.

31:16I think it's a really clever answer, actually, because it's much better than saying, well, he's a bit iffy sometimes, or he's a bit inconsistent.

31:25Tom Allnutt: That's what Greg is saying. Yeah, yeah, exactly. That's what he really thinks. if you want to see him develop and players develop at different rates some players just Erby actually used to be quite critical of him or he would dip him in and out and he would say no he's still got a lot to work on so I think it has been a bit of a theme during his time at the club but huge potential. Maybe it's time they spoke about something else and made it an external factor and that in some respects bolsters his confidence, it reminds the world that he's good enough for a so-called big club to come in for him.

32:00And it gives him an out for some inconsistencies, whilst behind the scenes they work on what really is going on, which is he might just be one of those players who... And I'm in awe of players who find that consistency every game. Me too, it eluded me for a while back then. But when you think about it, there are some players who are always eight out of ten, always. you think that's that's impressive well that point for Brighton left them 14th in Premier League and Spurs up to third joint on 10 points with Arsenal and Bournemouth 5 points behind the league leaders Liverpool who we'll be talking about after the break as well as a precious win for Ruben Amaran and Manchester United we'll be back after the break

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34:10Welcome back to the game podcast from the Times. I'm Greg Robertson with Alison Rudd and Tom all in it. To Anfield next and Liverpool's 2-1 win against Everton in the Merseyside Derby. I spoke to the Times Northern Football correspondent Paul Joyce earlier about the game and Liverpool's impressive but not entirely convincing start to the season. Paul, thanks for joining us. Another win for Liverpool in the Merseyside Derby. A fifth win from five in the Premier League but another game that was a bit more nervy and anxious perhaps than Arnie Slott would have liked or enjoyed at the end. I think so.

34:45I think they probably lost a bit of control in the game and Everton came into the game a bit more in the second half. But I've been thinking a lot over the weekend, really. And the way that Liverpool get judged compared to other teams, the standard day that gets applied to them is just higher than other teams. I think for them to have made the start of the season that they have is testament to everyone, given the transition in the summer that they've undergone. Everybody knows about other things that happened in the summer, which no other club has gone through, and let's hope that they don't have to go through.

35:21I just think Liverpool get held to a higher standard than most other teams in the Premier League. And, you know, we're talking about them conceding a counter-attack goal, keeps getting mentioned on the opening day of the season. And, you know, I see other sides getting conceding counter-attack goals as well. So, yeah, I just think it's been a good start to the season. I think they're facing a difficult week now. There's a lot of improvement still to come in Liverpool, but I think they've done very well to negotiate the fixture so far. They're only Champions League team to win at the weekend. There's too much focus on the negative, or there's a lack of focus on the positives, really.

36:00It's interesting you say that I mean that has been the kind of the narrative a bit about Liverpool that almost you know they obviously had the late goals against Bournemouth Newcastle, Arsenal Burnley even Atletico in midweek the two goal leads twice in the last week that's kind of not held on to as you say with like that much control so you believe that it's still being a hugely positive start you know that there's more to come that maybe finding a way to win in these games is a sign of a a great team rather than any scene of concern? I just think that to have five wins out of five, given everything that they went through in the summer and the changes to the squad in the summer, I think people are bedding in, I think, three games in six days.

36:42I just don't think that we look at any of these things anymore. It's just the rush to criticise every team. And I just think Liverpool get held to a higher standard than a lot of other teams in the league. I think you can talk about the late goals in a negative way or you can see it as a mindset of a manager who wants to win every game that he plays and is prepared to throw players on to try and win a game. You can look at it as weaknesses of the opposition. In Burnley's case, they gave Liverpool nothing else to do but to attack in those final moments. So, you know, their strength ultimately became a weakness.

37:22So I just think, I think a lot of nonsense spoken around Liverpool in terms of the negativity. They've got Crystal Palace away, Galatasaray away, Chelsea coming up in the next week from next Saturday onwards. And that's going to be a tough spell. If they've still got a five-point lead at the top of the Premier League after that, then I think they'll have done exceptionally well. But if they don't have, I don't really think it's a massive reason to start criticising. I think every team in the Premier League has got elements of their play which could improve. Liverpool are no different to that but they're certainly not alone in that.

38:01Just coming back to the game at the weekend then, you've written about Ryan Gravenberch in the game today which you can read on the Times website. Lovely, beautifully taken goal and assist. He's obviously a revelation as a bit of a kind of makeshift number six last season. You're writing in this piece that you think he's now the most complete midfielder in the Premier League or certainly in that conversation. To be honest, I wouldn't normally write that type of piece, but I've sort of seen like Rinders getting praise and Zubamendi getting praise and I just think they're not doing what Graven Birch has done for more than a year now.

38:37He didn't score any goals last season. He's got two already this season. I think the way he took the goal was exceptional. I think it's somebody who obviously thinks a lot about his game and how to improve. Sat down with him along with other journalists at the end of last season. He was talking about how other teams had started targeting him in the second half of the season and the stats showed that he, I think he had less touches, was making less passes. So teams were sort of surrounding him to try and limit his influence. And I think the fact that he sort of sat down and recognised that, thought about how could he evolve and has come back and put that into practice.

39:20Yeah, I think he started this season very well, but the big challenge is that he has to, continue that now and with the prominence of his displays will come more sort of opponents trying to nullify him so there's that constant battle of trying to stay ahead of the opposition that he will continue to face this season So another brilliant display by Ryan Graham just finally on Everton David Moyes back in the dugout another is kind of off of the record that Anfield continued but a much improved performance in the second half Jack Grealish again another standout performance for Everton in that second half Yeah I think I was a little bit disappointed that Everton once they got equaliser with about half an hour to go I don't really think Alison created a sorry Alison had a save to make really after that I think Everton have made a good start to the season I think the game against West Ham now a week today is really important because they need to win that one at home I think the big issue Everton will have is scoring goals and a sort of lack of firepower.

40:30Obviously, the winning goal in the derby came from Ekotike, who's potentially a£79 million player. Everton took a chance on Tierno Barry in the summer from Villarreal. And he's, you know, probably a bit of a player for the future. He's looking quite raw at the moment. And Beto was started the game and was taken off at halftime, which I sort of felt was a bit harsh really because I didn't feel he had any service in the opening half. So yeah, I think Everton have made a decent start to the season now, I would say. I think Grealish has brought optimism. But the difficulty moving forward is going to be in scoring the goals and having a regular goal scorer.

41:14And I think if you look at the way that Graven Birch has sort of thought about his career and what he needs to improve upon. Then there's sort of an example for some of the Everton players to follow. You know, Grealish needs to probably add some goals to his game as well. Dewsbury Hall needs to, he scored a great goal at Wolves, but they won at Molineux a few weeks ago. He needs to do that regularly. And Dye needs to chip in with the goals because it's quite clear that the front players maybe aren't the type that at the moment are going to get you guaranteed double figures. So moving forward, I think that would be the area to sort of focus on for Everton.

41:57Alison, Paul clearly thinks that Liverpool are being judged a little bit harshly at the moment. What do you make of that? No, I think I hate to disagree with Paul, but I think there's a lot of love for Arnie Slott and for Liverpool at the moment. I think the love started with sympathy over the death of Diogo Jota and the effect that would have on the team. I think people are nervous to keep raising it as a possibility, but I think there is an underlying understanding that a lot of Liverpool games start at 100 miles per hour because they're still working with emotion. And then that means that they don't pace themselves properly and they can't sustain it for 90 minutes.

42:40so there are some wobbles. But if you just sit back and look at what you get from a Liverpool team compared to a lot of other teams that might be trailing in the dying sections of a match, you get so much more from Liverpool and that is very seductive. I think people love watching them. I think they feel that Slott came in, first job in English football, did a remarkable job. There might be some sniffiness about Liverpool suddenly out of the blue, starting to spend some money, but it's not... Neither of the two really expensive signings are at the heart of the excellent start to the season and there's probably a sense that Isak will get fit and be fine and Vietz will, again, get used to the Premier League and will see much more of his trickery and influence on games.

43:32So, if anything, there's a slight awe about what Liverpool can become given they've started in not supreme form. I don't think, I really don't see that there's an agenda against them at all. I mean, if you want to be entertained, what game are you going to choose? You're going to choose a Liverpool game. And I wasn't joking when I've said previously, I don't get worried when Liverpool need a late goal because I do feel, comparative to the way other teams respond, and we'll probably come on to talk about Chelsea, Chelsea's performance Old Trafford in that one you never sensed that they were building to a crescendo if you need a crescendo you get it at Anfield there wasn't the necessity for one in the derby because they had the 2-1 lead there hadn't been an equaliser it wasn't necessary if they had needed to grab a late goal they would have done so and I think there is an overall there is a sense of wow to do that is pretty special and feeds back into the DNA of the club, the way the fans are.

44:40It is a team with so much passion and energy that is only going to get better. If anything, I would say people could have been harsher. But as I say, I think there is still some sympathy for what Liverpool are coping with. Tom, what do you think? Do you think there's lots more to come still from Liverpool, basically, and this is probably a bit ominous for the rest of the league?

45:02Tom Allnutt: I like this idea of media narrative against Liverpool. been discussed by us in the media I think it's fine to hold Liverpool to a higher standard you know they won the title they spent 450 million in the summer they bought all the strikers that all the other teams in the league wanted you know and they've got the best European player for a Premier League record fee you know and they've got an incredible squad Alisson's absolutely right they haven't even used Isak and Vertia you know and I think it's absolutely fine for us to look at their performances and say are there any chinks in the armour here and actually we've maybe seen some there are many but we're sort of wondering is anyone going to get close to Liverpool and if so why and I think early on there are suggestions maybe that the defence needs a little bit of work still they haven't quite got the balance right, the full-backs is Kerkers kind of ready to be Robertson's replacement straight away question marks there I think so yeah I think there's definitely more to come which is obviously a problem for the other teams given they've taken 15 out of 15 but is it valid to look at their performances when they're kind of getting by at the moment with late goals and it hasn't been super convincing I think it's absolutely valid OK not been super convincing at Old Trafford of late recently but a very convincing and much needed win against Chelsea at the weekend helped a little bit by Robert Sanchez's moment of madness in the fifth minute although Casemiro levelled things up Are you going to skate over that red card?

46:32No, not at all. We can talk about that. I'm just kind of painting the picture that they were helped, but then the man advantage was lost on the stroke of halftime, basically. Right. Well, I mean, one of the most astonishing things of the weekend is how little analysis has been given to that sending off of Robert Sanchez. Why? because surely okay let's not get down the road of do we like VAR or not like VAR if VAR exists and it does surely it's there to help the officials understand what happened when there's a big this is a big moment a red card, it's a big moment that you need to get right this is the point of VAR if Robert Sanchez touched the ball and he has every right to try and tackle someone coming towards him and try and get the ball then the referee needs to look at it.

47:27He doesn't look at it. There are no pictures shown. All the pictures of him making a clean contact with the ball are shown like hours and hours later. Why is that? And why doesn't Robert Sanchez say to the referee I touched the ball? Why doesn't... It's no longer enough. I wish it was but it's not. But if he gets the ball and the ball's gone it's not a clear goal scoring opportunity is it? There are still two defenders. I just feel it's... If there's a point at which you might think... I think VAR is sometimes scared to get involved with things which are nuanced and yet very important.

48:07Tom Allnutt: You think it wasn't a red? I think it's up to the referee, because I think there are some views where you think, absolutely, that's a clear red card. He's clattered into him. And once there's no goalkeeper in goal, you can call it a clear goalscoring opportunity. But he does seem, I have seen images where he takes the ball first, which stops it being a clear goal-scoring opportunity, which means it's a free kick because, as you say, Gregor, it's not enough just to get the ball. If you follow through, it's still a free kick. But it wasn't dangerous. It's not dangerous and therefore it's no longer a goal-scoring opportunity.

48:44Is it a red card?

48:45Tom Allnutt: Tom, you look sceptical. I thought it was a red card. But why? I'm now wondering. On what basis, though? It's so convincing. It makes me want to go and watch it again. by the time I thought it was a red card. Me too, actually, yeah. We were both looking at each other nervously there, we were just wondering, do we need to go and look at this again? I'm not sure I've seen those angles. Anyway, maybe. But, well, I'm open to being told I've been duped by some sort of AI is a dream, but I have seen several sources where the picture shows that he took the ball. Okay, well... Sanchez is still a problem, though, isn't he?

49:17Yeah, I mean, it's interesting... He's a problem for not arguing. I think that was the biggest thing. It's interesting, and his Club World Cup sort of appearances and particularly in the final made people think oh actually this is the moment when he grows and becomes not sure about that not sure that's ever going to be the case

49:31Tom Allnutt: I think it's still a big weak link you know when we talk about Chelsea as possible title contenders I still think that's a big problem for them you know when we look at the signings they made in the summer you know constantly signing more and more attacking players and wingers and it's sort of the Arteta equivalent of signing you know defensive midfielders and left backs Chelsea loved signing wingers and they need a goalkeeper and they need more options at centre half there were goalkeepers available in the summer and I just I think that was a miss for them this is a club that had 13 goalkeepers on their books and none of them were any good yeah yeah it's very peculiar there always seems to be gaping holes in Chelsea's squad I still think in centre half as well they're still playing Chalaba who they were hoping to sell last January

50:23Favano's always injured it's extraordinary but anyway that's where you get from 1.3 Billy but did he how do we feel about the way Chelsea responded to going a man down so early in the match it was very strange to make such significant changes so soon after the sending off I mean Cole Palmer I think was enforced because he had some strapping afterwards so he Clearly, that's protection, so that's fine. But to also take off Neto. I mean, it's an interesting mindset to... Because, you know, the bigger picture is you're at Old Trafford where there are nerves. This is a place that performances can crumble because they're under so much pressure.

51:12You're sort of handing them something to work with by taking off anyone who can be a danger or creative. And then, of course, when it's 10 against 10, you've got nobody left and you don't bring Garnaccio off the bench, who presumably, you know, the laws of football state, the immutable law of the X, he wants to come on and show off, doesn't he? I mean, I seem to be a marked lack of imagination from Enzo Maresco in that situation.

51:42Tom Allnutt: But maybe he wanted to stay in the game. I agree with you but equally it's the idea not to get blown away to stay in the game in the hope that something happens like Casemiro for example you play on the nerves at Old Trafford you don't want to give them the lead straight away you keep it tight essentially for as long as possible not convinced ok Manchester United then because it was a big win for them I mean Ruben Amarum has spoken a lot before about the need to be more aggressive and he certainly looked that there might still have been flaws in their game but they looked very much up for this even despite the helping hand from Sanchez Yeah and I thought they started well in general even before that we were talking about United getting on the front foot earlier and needing to set the tone and the agenda of the match I thought they did that in the first period I don't think you can take this when you're playing against 10 man Chelsea for most of the match I don't think you can take it as a real game changing victory yet I have to say like it doesn't feel to me like this is all making everything better for United immediately but is it a start?

52:48Tom Allnutt: Yeah absolutely you know and Amarim said afterwards isn't it we need wins you know we need it's not really about the performances at the moment we need wins to get some momentum get some confidence get the media off Amarim's back this kind of thing I think that 100 % helps and obviously the context of the game massively contributed to United being able to get the result over the line but they did it ultimately I mean no thanks to Casemiro by the way I mean that was if you're up a man in a match with his experience and someone who to kind of pull someone back as well to risk that making the game even again I thought was pretty reckless from him I've got to say It's always complicated Ruben Amaran said with us so it certainly was a bit of a nervy finish but a big win for Manchester United another defeat though for West Ham and Graham Potter at the hands of 17 game unbeaten Crystal Palace is the end nigh for Graham Potter do you think Alison?

53:47I I I hate, I just hate saying yes because it's a cruel thing to say but I just don't see any progress at all that's the problem it's this, I mean it's almost like the problems have become multiplied as opposed to things being solved so I didn't feel when Potter took over there was an immediate dip in how they defended set pieces that wasn't an issue it was him just getting into grits without a pre-season and trying to find a style but now added into the mix they're just really abysmal at defending free kicks and corners and this wasn't something that was particularly associated with West Ham before he arrived.

54:36I mean, there were lots of problems. So it's like he's adding into the mix of reasons why he should lose his job. He's creating more difficulties for them. And I see no particular evidence that there was a lot of work done in the summer to create an identity. I'm not sure. I wouldn't know if I was talking to someone who'd never seen West Ham in their life, I wouldn't know how to describe them. I think I'd say, oh, you know, Jared Bowen's good. That's what I'd say There we go Leave it Big wins for Fulham And Leeds And a fifth defeat Of the season For Wolves Whose manager Vitor Pereira Just signed a new Three year contract Which he'll be pleased about But let's end with Aston Villa On the plus side They scored a goal Premier League goal But they failed to see out The game against A Sunderland side Who had ten men For an hour And Unai Emery Was not happy Tom What's happened To Aston Villa This season?

55:34Tom Allnutt: The vibes are bad, aren't they? I think this goes all the way back to the summer, doesn't it? There's always been this sense of Aston Villa being hard done by. Maybe it even goes all the way back to that last game of last season and not getting the Champions League because of that goal where they were clearly very unfortunate against Man United. But ever since then, it feels like Aston Villa have been sulking. The whole of the summer transfer window, they've basically been telling everyone how the rules mean that teams like them can't progress. and I think that that sense has come into the season not just that sort of almost lack of motivation and enthusiasm but also if you don't change your squad and I know we talk a lot about transfers and sometimes we say how transfers get a lot more hype than they deserve but they do also serve a purpose to kind of keep players refreshed and on their toes I remember talking to people at Spurs in that summer when they basically did nothing back in 2019 or something and there was this idea yeah there's a good squad but players when they come back in for a new season they like to see new faces it gives the idea of progress and forward thinking keeping everyone kind of on their toes and I think everything's so flat at Aston Villa everything feels kind of like everyone is kind of accepting that they can't get better than they were last season which isn't true by the way there are lots of clubs we don't need to get into the debate about PSR but there are lots of clubs who have to work on budget and they have to be smart with their recruitment they have to sign players that aren't worth 50-60 million it is possible and they haven't done that I mean, Ona Emery was still playing nine players in the starting line-up that were there two or three years ago against Sunderland at some point you have to keep evolving the team, even just for the sake of evolution because you have to keep the squad fresh and Aston Villa are just quite quickly going stale, aren't they?

57:16Tom Allnutt: I mean, that comment about him saying that the players were lazy, that's pretty critical, that's quite heavy, isn't it? At this point in the season, it wasn't just a one-off passing phrase, he said it in all the interviews he did post-match he repeated it three or four times. In my mind, it was something he really came out to say. You sort of wonder, are the players going to take that well? Are they behind Unai Emery enough that they're all going to say, yeah, we were lazy? I don't think, I was trying to think in terms of the Spanish translation there, whether there was something a little bit, whether it was slightly loaded and slightly less loaded in Spanish.

57:46Tom Allnutt: Lazy actually means beautiful. They're such beautiful players. But I think he meant what he said. Alison, there's no club in the Premier League that is more set up around one individual. He essentially handpicked Monchi and the hierarchy around him. Aston Villa need this to work. They don't need this to go on much longer, do they? No. And maybe this is a key moment in the evolution of Aston Villa, the fact he has publicly blamed the players. Now, when that happens at a lot of clubs, it spells the end of the manager. as soon as the manager turns on the players, the club don't sack the players, they sack the manager.

58:30It's almost one of the golden rules. You know, if there was such a thing as a school for management as opposed to just taking your badges, but you went to some sort of Enid Blyton, Mallory Towers thing where you all learned how to... The finishing school for managers. You'd be told in press conferences, never, never criticise the players en masse because you're the one that will go, not the players. And he's done it. I think you're right, Gregor, because he feels probably secure in his job. He knows they had a long-term project when they appointed him. I mean, there is this expectation that he knows how to win the Europa League, so there's a trophy on its way there.

59:09He got so much goodwill. His coaching and management skills since he's arrived at Villa have had, you know, everyone's been really impressed with what he's done with them. But, you know, the truth is I think they probably overachieved with him there given the lack of investment. and if they are, I think they lack pace, and the teams they've played against have had pace where they haven't had pace, and I think that's dispiriting for the players, so you could call it laziness, but it could equally be a sense of fatalistic, but we haven't got the pace for this. I was at Villa Park for the first game, and Newcastle were their opponents, and Newcastle have a lot of pace and Villa didn't not know what to do with it.

59:55And Villa were also playing a lot of balls with pace on them with no one to run onto them. They just don't have players in the squad with that sort of ability to dictate tempo and scare opponents with pace. They're a more considered team and I don't think we're going to see a sacking at Villa but I think we have to have faith probably that Unai Emery knows what he's doing by saying lazy and we will have to see an upturn. That upturn might come in Europe.

1:00:31Tom Allnutt: I mean, maybe ironically, you know, if Aston Villa, at what point do they say, actually, this is a cup season, this European season, you know, it's too early for that now. But if we add five, ten games to this run, you know, maybe Emery, you know, goes down the sort of Manchester United Tottenham route and thinks, actually, if we put all our eggs in the kind of, in the cups basket, well their Europa League campaign kicks off with the visit of Bologna on Thursday night just before we go one listener wrote in and suggested that Villa's biggest problem is John McGinn's arse getting less gargantuan Martin I will not hear it anyway we'll be back on Thursday to discuss all the midweek action thanks for joining us, hope to see you then

1:01:22Hi, I'm Nick, co-host of The Best One Yet. You optimize your workouts, your portfolios, and that rando startup idea that hit you in the middle of the shower. But if you're not hydrated, you're already playing catch-up. So we keep a stash of liquid IV in our studio. One stick mixed into 16 ounces of water is clinically demonstrated to hydrate faster than water alone with three times the electrolytes of the leading sports drink, plus eight vitamins and nutrients. Whether you're traveling, exercising, or podcasting, the best business news ever. liquid IV makes it easy to stay hydrated wherever life takes you.

1:01:51So shop now at liquidiv.com. Liquid IV hydration that goes wherever life takes you.