Is Carrick right for Man Utd? And Celtic v Hearts

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1:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Scotland will have its final day showdown in the Premiership title race between Celtic and Hearts after the reigning champions scored a controversial 99th minute penalty against Motherwell to stay one point behind the leaders Hearts going into Saturday's finale at Celtic Park. On today's show we'll reflect on all the drama of Wednesday night's penultimate games which still leaves Hearts 90 minutes away from their first title for 66 years. Also on the show, the latest developments in the search for new managers at Manchester United and Chelsea, the spying scandal that's rocked the Championship playoffs, the FA Cup final and much, much more.

1:48I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd, the former Celtic and Chelsea striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino and joining us down the line, we are delighted to have the Times Scottish football correspondent, Michael Grant, on the show. Guys, good to have you all. Michael, let's get straight to it. A night of unfathomable drama, really. Like, ridiculous drama. I think we'll agree. I think, first of all, just before we get your reflections on that, I'll just outline to anyone who's been hiding under a rock what this story means up in Scotland.

2:29The last time Hearts won the league was 1960. The last time any team outside the old firm won it was Alex Ferguson's Aberdeen in 1985. So this is a huge, huge story and it's still very much on. But my word, for what was it, eight minutes last night? Hearts pretty much had one hand on the trophy. They did their job. They were 3-0 up. They won 3-0, sorry, against Falkirk. Celtic were drawing 2-0 against Motherwell. And then Celtic were awarded a 99th minute penalty. We'll come to the penalty, but Michael, first of all, you were at Tynecastle. Tell us what it was like to be there last night, because it must have been a rollercoaster.

3:07I'm glad you just summed that up for me there, because I really wasn't sure what happened. It's too early to process it and kind of make sense of it. Yeah, it was extraordinary. Scottish football is pretty insane at the best of times. It's insanely competitive and passionate and noisy and all the rest of it. but last night was a new one I think because I was actually thinking about this earlier that I don't often get involved in matches that are kind of codependent on other matches if you know what I mean because I tend not to be doing relegation battles and Celtic are normally so far ahead at this point in the season that it doesn't really matter what's happening elsewhere so last night you're at Tynecastle and you're kind of hearing and you're reacting as the fans are reacting to news of the goals that the Motherwell Celtic game.

3:56And I made it those 11 minutes, Gregor, during which Hearts were winning and Celtic were losing, and that meant that the Hearts were on course for it. And by God, you didn't half know it in Tynecastle because the place was just a pandemonium, you know. But then, of course, the nature of these things, and all the guys will know here, and you'll know that when it's bad news, there isn't a big reaction to bad news. So when Celtic scored an equaliser, that's just a kind of murmur isn't it, that just goes quiet and at the end of it just to try and get a picture of it, so when it's two each at the Celtic game and Hearts are 3-0 up Celtic would have needed to beat Hearts 3-0 or by three goals on Saturday, now I don't think they would have done that Hearts haven't lost by three goals to anybody this season, they haven't lost to Celtic at all, and there was that feeling, you could sense it all around the electricity all around Tynecastle that we're going to do it here.

4:55We're going to win it. It's too big a lead for Celtic to overcome at the weekend. And then, of course, Celtic get that penalty where they scored it in 99 minutes. You could sense there was a kind of flattening. And then a bit of anger and then a bit of defiance. My God, they were shouting everything about Celtic from the stands around us in the press box. There was all sorts of accusations getting levelled about what was going on. OK, well, let's get to that moment, shall we? I mean, I thought John Robertson was one of the pundits in the Sky Sports Studio, kind of summed it up perfectly at the end.

5:33He said, no one on the pitch claimed for it. The referee didn't give it. The linesman didn't give anything. But the VAR, Andrew Dallas, called the referee John Beaton over to the pitch side monitor to review a potential handball. So this is deep into injury time. Motherwell, Sam Nicholson challenged for a high ball. Replay showed that he headed the ball. His hand was very close. That's all we can say. His hand was very, very close to both his head and the ball. And John Beaton took 22 seconds. We've just spent Monday's show analysing and also decrying the fact that it took nearly five minutes at the London Stadium to come to decision another VAR call.

6:14This seemed remarkably quick as well, Michael. I mean, what do you make of that incident and the sort of outcry and reaction that's followed? Well, the outcry has been enormous. And, I mean, it's dominating everything. I mean, and I'm not saying this lightly, it is actually genuinely relegating Keir Stammer's position to the second item on the news agenda in Scotland this morning. And I'm not joking you. So there's all sorts of debate. I mean, I wasn't at that match, obviously, but I've already must have watched the incident about 50 times. I guess most of you will have seen it umpteen times as well.

6:52I mean, I don't think it was a penalty. I think if there's any contact with the hand, it's debatable. It's unclear. I think the defender's arm is probably knocked into that position by the challenge with trusty, and it's fundamentally a heading, a headed clearance. But I must admit, Gregor, I was interested in your take. You're a defender. how would you have reacted if that and I'm asking you as a defender not as a man who might have allegiances let's leave them to one side it's not the data if he's talking about that Michael yeah look my kind of fundamental position on this is that even if it did glance his hand or if I'd been a defender and I'd glanced my hand it was so inconsequential it didn't matter he headed the ball clear that was the trajectory that everyone saw that skin of the main point he's not making his body bigger is he?

7:45no you don't gain any advantage that's what the laws of the game were for to gain unfair advantage and I come back to it we're going to come back to VAR in the second half of the show again but this is what VAR has done it's taken something that no one saw in real time and made an issue out of it where there really isn't one and doesn't have to be one so that's my point of view I've said on the show before I grew up a Celtic fan But I feel enormous sympathy for Hearts Because I think this was a bit of a travesty really It's the opposite of what happened at West Ham game, isn't it? The VAR in the West Ham game against Arsenal A lot of stuff happened And in this one, nothing at all happened It's utterly bizarre And yet both are hugely significant You can see how in Scotland There is, you know It plays into this idea that there is some sort of creation of a narrative and that there are, you know, sinister forces trying to, you know.

8:45It just plays into it. I don't think there are, by the way. I just think referees, both north and south of the border, are not very good. But I can see how, why everyone's going nuts. I can see why it's not Pierre Starmer of the news, although he would greatly admire the process element of it, certainly. I can understand all of that. Well, without having a bias, I mean, you support them. I played for them. I listened to Martin O 'Neill afterwards, which he thought was 100 % a penalty. Totally disagree. Paul Lambert listened on the radio this morning coming in. Paul Lambert comes on and says, well, Hart's made the mistake they didn't beat Motherwell two weeks ago.

9:27And I thought, just to answer the question, was that a penalty? For love nor money, I can't see it. You know, if Rangers had had the same decision and Celtic were in a position of, you know, where Hearts were, are in, they'd be furious. Because how you can give that a penalty, I do not know. Because we've been in, I've had these type of balls, you know, and it was made quite clear last night. If you get distance on a header, you've clearly headed it. You've headed it properly. You can't flip a ball. I mean, he's even got his hand sort of on the shoulder, isn't he, of the hearts of the Celtic player.

10:05And I just can't see how you can give that. Yeah. Michael, just on the point that Martin raised there about conspiracy theories, that's been a big part of Scottish football for a long time and it runs down so many lines as well. I mean, you could talk about Celtic and Rangers lines, you could talk about East Coast, West Coast lines, You can even talk about religious lines in Scottish football. What, I mean, is there any, do you feel there's any basis for any of that kind of thing? Or is this just, as Martin said, incompetence? No, I don't think that. Listen, there's, as you say, it's so tribal up here that an incident like this does feed into long held and long established prejudices and beliefs, you know.

10:53And obviously you'll get the entire Rangers report will say, well, there you go. This is all for Celtic's advantage. They don't care so much about Harts. They would rather just Celtic get thwarted. I agree with Matt. And I think the refereeing standards in Scotland are really poor. And I mean really poor. I think they're never great. But I think the current batch are a particularly poor crop. And you feel for any team that misses out. There's so much work that's going into Harts. season and it's been such an incredible effort and that doesn't mean they deserve to win the league that'll be decided over 38 games, they've led it virtually from the start they've led it since September they've led the league and they could lose it in the final day if they lose it Celtic will deserve it and merit because they'll have come through they'll have come off the canvas really under Mark O 'Neill so I don't believe there's corruption people obviously latch onto that on a day like this and I mean Derek McInnes has commented were really strong after the game last night.

11:55You know, he talked about it being disgusting. It feels like everybody's against us, you know. So you're going to get that. We're going to get another two or three days of this. And if Hearts do lose the league on Saturday, they'll have a grievance forever about that. Do I believe there's corruption? No, I don't. No. I don't. What do you think about the psychological impact of it, though? I mean, if you're going into that final day with a huge grievance, is that positive or negative? How do you make it work for you if you're Hearts? Well, I think you've got to dispel that. You've got to forget it.

12:26And I think Derek McInnes did try and, after saying that, did try and focus on Saturday. Just put that in the past and focus on Saturday. Michael, just looking at Saturday, finally, as Alison says there, it is kind of throwing up an interesting psychological shift in the very, very death of this game here. How do you see that one going? Well, Derek McInnes has been really sure-footed this season. This is new territory for him to take a title race right to the end. So I think he will try to get out of this any suggestion of woe is us. Everything's against us. We've got no chance. I mean, it's there for Hearts to win the league.

13:05A draw is enough, but there's no reason why they couldn't go and beat Celtic. Now, that's not easy. My God, you're going into the Lions then. It's going to be 60 ,000. They're up for it. they're going for five in a row they've put an enormous effort themselves to get there but it's there for Hearts and as you said in your intro Gregor, it's history I mean the attention I've been so aware of the attention that's coming down on the Scottish game this year which is far greater than ever, far greater than ever because it's different, it's a story it's novel and there's a lot of neutrals and people out with Scotland that are hoping Hearts do it because it's such a fairy tale and it's there for them to do it, 90 minutes, you know, avoid defeat at Parkhead and their champions.

13:49It's going to be absolutely compelling on Saturday and I hope there isn't another refereeing decision that influences the brand. I was going to ask you that, Michael. That was my question. That was going to be my question of, you know, how a referee is going to ref that particular game because he'll have a tough call. What we've seen in recent history and we've seen it all over this week is a controversial decision in many games. This could be the same on the weekend. It could easily be, because it goes back to the core point that I don't think we've got good officials here. And that's the match official and, sorry, the referee on the pitch and the VAR, they're equally capable of making blunders for either side.

14:33And I really hope it's not. And listen, it can't be much fun for John Beaton, the referee, and Andy Dallas, the VAR today, because they're having to deal with fallout and stick on an unprecedented level for them. But, my God, around Hearts, there won't be much sympathy for them. Michael, thank you very much, and I hope you'll join us on Monday to run the rule over that thriller on Saturday. Thank you, Michael. Thanks, guys. It's mad, isn't it? Just a few little stats about Hearts and how incredible this is. Hearts have got 15 ,500 season ticket holders. Rangers have 45 ,000. Celtic have 53 ,000.

15:16Their most recent turnover was 24 million. Rangers was 94 million. Celtic's was 143 million. Last season, they finished seventh, 42 points behind Celtic. It is a remarkable, remarkable story. And what a climax as well, Alison. Amazing. Yeah, I mean, it'll bring people who don't... The thing is, people get sort of apathetic about Scottish football because it's so predictable. Yeah. And suddenly it's not in lots of different ways. So, I mean, with that attention on them, you hope that the final day lives up to scratch and is not just exciting and nail-biting, but has some good football. I'm hoping there is a fair outcome on the final game.

15:57There isn't going to be that crazy decision that I felt last night was one of, that we go into this game and it isn't controversial, whether it's for Hearts or Celtic, that is a major talking point that's overshadowed whoever wins the league. And I love Martin O 'Neill's lime green trim on his tracksuit. That is something. He's wearing it well. Right, let's turn our attention to the English Premier League title race. 3-0 win for Manchester City. Boring in comparison, wasn't it? I mean, it was a little bit this week, wasn't it? It did feel like that this week. Yeah, much changed Manchester City side with one eye on the FA Cup final, of course.

16:333-0 win against Crystal Palace. I think the most interesting thing to come out of this, Mark, was probably the performance of Phil Foden. Yeah. A wonderful assist. And just wondering whether a final flourish might do something perhaps for his England hopes as well. I don't know, do you? I don't know about that. I mean, because England managers have got to respond in the end to what they see in front of them when England play. You can't, you know, club form obviously plays a part, but you can't, if you've looked at, if Thomas Tuchel has looked at Phil Foden and has tried to get him into the team in various positions and it hasn't worked, you can't suddenly look at him, put him Crystal Ballish to the sword and go, oh, that overhauls everything that I've seen with him in an England shirt.

17:21You can't do that. But it could be too late for that. But it shouldn't be too late for Phil Foden to get in the England team at some stage, to get back into the England team, to get back into the Manchester City team as a regular starter. It's not so long ago. He was the Footballer of the Year. I can remember being there that night. And anything looked possible for him that night. Anything. You heard Gary Southgate's tribute to him and saying it's going to be special. Isn't there something quite compelling, Martin, about a player that you know innately has the talent? Yeah. He's had a dip this season.

18:00He's had his own issues. Isn't there something quite compelling about a player that you know can play, might have just shaken off whatever was ailing him? He's going to be fresh because he's not played in minutes. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He looked... His demeanour was very different last night, I felt. He looked like he was enjoying himself. Honestly, you don't backheel a pass like that unless you're feeling great. and I just, I would slightly disagree. I would think that Thomas Tuchel has to at least think about, think about it because someone coming in with a freshness and a need to prove themselves as opposed to thinking, oh, I've won what I needed to win and now I'm knackered.

18:39It might be something we need. There is a sort of middle ground here where you, an international jury, managers just look at players and just make calls on them, the effect they have on the group and not saying that feels a problem at all. He's clearly not. But I can remember, and I referenced him way too many times, but Jack Charlton said, if I haven't made my mind up before a tournament by March, you're not going. Yeah. You know, you're not going. That's all I think. That's all I think. It's not so much whether he deserves to go, because I would always try to find a way of getting four-folded in an England squad.

19:12I just look at what Tuchel's done and, you know, Dan Byrne, Jordan Henderson, and he's got these guys that no one else would put in an England squad, but he's had them in all of his England squads, as if his mind is made up. And all England managers will say, oh, nothing's decided, nothing's decided. It's not true, it is decided. And someone's got to do something really terribly wrong to play themselves out of the team equally. Or injuries that affect so badly. Injuries or whatever. Or equally, it's got to be something very dramatic. I'm not sure one game... because is he going to play in the cup final?

19:49Indeed, yeah. Returning the focus to the title race then, I mean, it was interesting afterwards, he sort of sent a message out, didn't he? He said, anything can happen on the final day. And like, this does look like another title race that is going to go to the final day. Well, it honestly did not feel like a title race at all because the Man City fans have clearly decided it's all over. Yeah. It was completely dead. Yeah, the atmosphere was a bit subdued. It was awful, awful atmosphere. for one you'd forgive the atmosphere if it was officially mathematically over you'd forgive it but while it's mathematically possible clearly they've done their sums and done their eye test and the Man City fans do not see Arsenal dropping points Martin you were coming on after on Monday's show we analysed the weekend Arsenal's game against West Ham what do you mean that was a very cagey and narrow margin I think Arsenal win their next simple as that.

20:46I've always thought going back, coming out of the Man City game, you know I had a different opinion than a lot of people about when they got beat at Man City. I thought that was a good day for Arsenal, bizarrely and everything apart from the result. And then you looked at their fixtures, their last five fixtures, and you thought right, well they've already played those five teams they've beaten every single one of those five teams this season and I think they'll do that again. And so far, that looks like what's going to happen. They'll beat those five teams again. So, yeah, I mean, I'd have my house on them against Burnley.

21:30And, yeah, Crystal Palace on the last day of the season, but they're playing the Conference League on the Wednesday. You know, I know the team I'd put out. Palace made a load of changes last night. Exactly. And I think, and I wrote about that in the week, if you look at Oliver, from Oliver Glasner's point of view, if you make a load of changes against Manchester City, what you're actually doing is giving yourself a free pass to make a load of changes against Arsenal on the last day. Because then you can say, well, look, there's fair exchange. Consistency there. Consistency. We've got this match.

22:04This has got to be our focus. We could get, he could get Crystal Palace into the Europa League. then you're one season, one good season away from the Champions League. So his priority has got to be Crystal Palace. He will play a half-trength team against Arsenal. No one should be grudging that. He's played a half-trength team against Manchester City to give himself the leeway to do that. I do not see Arsenal dropping a point. There was nobody tackling in a Palace shirt either. No. I don't want to be injured. No, I don't want to be injured either. Yeah, it's a funny context when teams are playing for other things that feel slightly more important in that moment.

22:44Pep made changes as well. Yeah. You know, that wouldn't be the team that's going to play the cap final. Yeah. No, no. But probably he knew he could make changes. He knew Palace were going to make. So he'd go, right, well, Palace will go half-strength. We can go half-strength. We've got a bigger squad. And half-strength will beat Palace. It's half-strength. Our tea lady's nicer than your tea lady. Yeah, exactly. Right. Just to stay at the other end of the table, No, it's not. After a cagey... Oh, no? I mean, Spurs... Did Spurs not pass up an opportunity against Leeds? Oh, mate, look, honestly, Spurs are the luckiest team in the world because, gee whiz, to get...

23:20to end up where they are at Spurs, but they'll stay up. They'll stay up. One all-draw, Tony, against Leeds, and they needed a wonder save from Winski. What a great kind of redemption story that is as well after what happened to the goalkeeper against Atletico Madrid. Yeah, sometimes, you know, you get cast aside, don't you? Especially goalkeepers. I've always felt that if you make a mistake, it's no return sometimes for goalkeepers, where outfield players generally will get a second opportunity, come on as a sub, but a goalkeeper can be left on the bench for 20, 30, maybe even all the season as a second-choice goalkeeper.

23:56Fair play to him. You know, he made mistakes. I mean, I thought his biggest mistake in Affleck was his footwear, because he clearly had the wrong footwear on, as other players did in that game. But to have the belief and the confidence and also Deserby coming into the club and going, he's my first choice. Yeah. I mean, I'm not Vicario's biggest fan. I think he's quite an erratic goalkeeper in himself. But Deserby's gone that way. Just, I mean, I'm a bit surprised that you think it's that clear cut. I mean, there's two points in it. And it feels to me now like this was a great opportunity, but now it's too close to call because West Ham go to Newcastle before.

24:32He's been saying that for a long time now, Gregor. He likes Pagwise, doesn't he? You look at the last two games now. I mean, for a long time, it looked like West Ham had the toughest fixtures. I'm not sure that's the case anymore because Tottenham play a London derby after West Ham go to Newcastle. It could be all different. It could be in the relegation zone by then. It's not just any London derby. The first words you hear as you walk out, as a player, as you walk out of Stamford Bridge is a, we hate Tottenham. Yeah. It doesn't... I've always found that strange that they sing about how much they hate Tottenham.

25:02Before they even mention Chelsea. It's not like the stage will be set especially for this game. It's been like that forever. So it doesn't matter what state Chelsea are in. Are they going to be a little bit lightheaded after winning the FA Cup final? Are they going to be depressed having been slaughtered in the FA Cup final? It doesn't matter. This is just about the only fixture they will get back on course for, I think. It would make, honestly, it would make certain sections of the Chelsea fans much happier to be instrumental in sending Tottenham down as winning the FA Cup. Can I just add on a quick one on this?

25:42Yes, yes. I played against Spurs a few times for Chelsea and it was nowhere near as it has been as bad since probably 2000 and beyond. Because I never remember, it was always a derby and a good derby, a feisty game. But it's never become what it is now. And you take the days of, you know, when Costa and Drogbo were playing for Chelsea and Tottenham had come to Stamford Bridge and the Hazard performance. It was absolutely everybody was, you've got to turn over Spurs. And it's become that. And it seems to me, I don't know if there was a moment where it suddenly became white. Maybe it was the... The shuffle of the bridge was a big thing.

26:22Yeah, Mourinho being a manager as well of both teams and Conte's done a similar thing. and Chelsea would always get rid of the players and Spurs would take them. I don't know. They'd always seen something was going on between the two clubs. But it's way more feisty than... I mean, I've been to a good few Chelsea-Tottenham games and Chelsea and the fans are demanding that you literally get started. They want it to be played like a 1970s game. You know, they do. Chelsea fans want it that way. Yeah. Shall we take a quick break now? We'll come back to Chelsea and the FA Cup final and their search for a new manager after the break.

26:59But let's have a quick quiz question from Bill Edgar's quiz on the Times website. Which goalkeeper helped Manchester City win the League Cup final via a penalty shootout but was also in a Chelsea team that lost the FA Cup final? Is it Claudio Bravo, Carlo Curicini, Costal Pantillimon or Willy Caballero? Find out the answer after the break.

27:56We'll see you next time. and your business and search XERO for your free trial. Conditions apply.

28:09Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson, joined by Alison Rudd, Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino. Before the break, I asked a quiz question, which was, which goalkeeper helped Manchester City win the League Cup final via a penalty shootout but was also in a Chelsea team that lost the FA Cup final. Martin, you were chomping at the bit to give us the answer, which is... Willy Caballero. Willy Caballero, indeed it was. The League Cup final was against Liverpool in 2016 and the FA Cup final defeat was by Arsenal in 2020. Okay, bit of a development in Chelsea's search for a new manager.

28:48It seems that Xabi Alonso is the frontrunner. Lots of other names in the mix, though, still. got Bormus. There would be if you got five sporting diaries. That's a fair point. We've got five candidates how has that happened? They've all got one each. Yeah one each. Well Javi Alonso seems to be the front runner. They don't have one single transferable vote. They'll do it like there was at the London Assembly a single transferable vote where you know you'll you know someone will get it because he's everyone's second choice. Carry on. Bormus Anthony Irayoa. Film's Marco Silva. Crystal Palace's Oliver Glasner.

29:24Como's Cesc Fabregas. all of them seem to be in the mix. As you say, there are a lot of names in the mix. Alison, who would you go for? If you were one of the five wise men, who would you go for? Thank goodness I'm not. Martin wouldn't like me. I dislike people. I just think it's ludicrous. Martin would think I was ludicrous. Chelsea fans want Cesc Fabregas for obvious reasons, a hero for the club who's up and coming. yeah okay does Como success there translate to the Premier League well it might not except that he is a really intelligent chap and he knows the Premier League inside and out and he would have that emotional support I feel like there's been such a disconnect between the fans and recent managers they could do with someone that they could really buy into and I'm biased because as a Liverpool fan I just do not want to see Alonso going to Chelsea where there is no connection the poor bloke can't wait forever can he and if they're going to give Slott the whole of next season he's not going to hang around on Formby Beach which is what he has been doing for another season so I can see why Alonso's thinking well I've got to look at the options but I genuinely think there's we've been talking about the mechanics of VAR and conspiracy theories let's have a bit of romance and bring Fabregas to Chelsea.

30:47Marlon? I'm told I was told that Fabregas doesn't get it. I don't know if that's right or not. I was told that Fabregas doesn't get it. But, I mean, Alonso, the problem that Alonso has got is that you're walking into a very similar issue to the one that he had at Real Madrid, where, you know, dressing room like a bunch of weasels in a sack, really.

31:18and it seems very similar at Chelsea where people turn up when they feel like it. You know, I would expect a big Chelsea performance at Wembley on Saturday, not necessarily, you know, a big Chelsea performance like we saw against Nottingham Forest the other week, shall we say. And that's his problem. So what Chelsea have got to do, one of their five sporting directors or four maybe of them or three, who knows? Some combination of their sporting directors have got to do. They've got to clear that out. They've got to clear that out this summer. They've got to take the – you need good characters going forward with whoever the manager is, whether it's Alonso, Fabian, Silva, whoever.

32:05You need good characters. And don't you, you need good characters going forward. You've got to prepare the ground for the manager. You can't let Alonso walk in to what Liam Rossini walked into, where he wasn't the right man for the job, but he wasn't getting the help. It wasn't a United dressing. Cass, who would you go for? Well, I think just on some of them names, you didn't mention Lampard, and I think Lampard would have been scared off with the same idea that what we've been talking about is the model of the football club. you know not signing first hand of course as well yeah temporary spell if you're going there if you think of Xavi Alonso if he went there and you're walking into a club that is not going to bring in experience you know it's quite clear that Chelsea have ignored experienced players of a certain age which I think are vital to that football club and they're not going to have much say and without much say they can easily be sacked that's you know you've got to go back you've got to you know ask questions why certain managers have left the football club, and it screams of, well, they didn't have much say in anything that was going on around them.

33:14So I would be very concerned about the model of Chelsea being the actual problem more than who you select, because there's always five, ten candidates that you can go really top-notch and could easily fit the bill, tick all the boxes what you're looking for. But at the moment, I think certain managers will go, I think Lampard would have been one of them, and we'd all go, well, he sounded great at Coventry, got promoted, and then had the opportunity going back to Chelsea again. No, he'd stay with Coventry. But I actually think the problem is the way Chelsea run as a football club about what happens on the pitch is wrong.

33:51Taking all that into account, I mean, obviously, Callum McFarlane will be in charge at Wembley on Saturday. Would winning the FA Cup actually change the way that anyone would reflect or Chelsea would reflect on this season, Martin, do you think? In this season, well, look, if they win the FA Cup, then they've won three trophies in two years. Should that change the way you reflect on this project? It shouldn't particularly change the way you reflect on coming ninth or tenth or eighth or wherever they're going to end up. But there hasn't been much good news at Chelsea this season and that would be genuinely good news to ish end the season.

34:33with another trophy, they would suggest, I'm sure, that that shows you that there is the kernel of something positive happening at Chelsea, which is what we all took out of the Club World Cup and everything last year. Right, OK, they've just beaten PSG 3-0. They've got something there that can develop. But the problem was the way they developed it. It went back to the same old churn and everything. Then the manager goes, which clearly has alienated some of the players. So it's how you build on that. You know, you can win the FA Cup, but it's got to mean something. It's got to mean something going forward.

35:16If you can outwit PSG and then outwit Manchester City in a showpiece event, then it backs up everything we've been saying about the club not being run well. It means what have they been wasting all season if they're capable of that? Well, the last manager, if you remember, the last manager that did outwit Manchester City was Thomas Tuchel and he got the bullet. You know, Maresco outwitted PSG and he got the bullet. So there's some geniuses there, I tell you, because they're seeing stuff that none of the rest of us are. Well, most signs of good signs is overachieving with what you've got. Chelsea have been underachieving nearly all season.

35:58You know, Maresco was in a place where, we talked earlier about managers and types, and he obviously had a major fallout with people above him, what he could and couldn't do. And it's become a huge cost for the club, because they look unrecognisable. I've said, Brighton away was awful from Chelsea. I'm watching it and I'm thinking, how is this team performing? You know, forget Leon Rosinio. I'm talking about performances from the players, even if they didn't even have a team talk. You couldn't play that badly. After two and a half minutes, they're 1-0 down. And then they're looking around at each other.

36:33Now they've got players who want to leave the football club. They quite clearly want to leave the club. This idea of all these six - and seven-year contracts, that you're going to have six Winston Bogards, like I mentioned before, if you're not careful. This club is in an absolute mess at the moment. What is happening on the pitch? Now, if they do happen to beat Man City in a one-off game, because Wigan did it in, what, 2011? when they were relegated. Yeah, exactly. So it can happen, but they have to look back on this season and tick a lot of the boxes that clearly went wrong. Martin, you referenced the last time they won the trophy.

37:08It was the 2000... That's on the big Man City as well. Indeed, yeah. So I was going to say, that was the 2021 Champions League final. Man City haven't lost any of the next 13 games against Chelsea in all competitions. 1-10, drawn three. So can we see that changing this weekend? It's not impossible. it really isn't I think it'll come down to I think Chelsea will be up for it right I think it'll come down to things like there's been a trend lately where Caicedo is such an important player but he gets he gets penalised a lot for his robust tackling but if you look at a lot of his yellow cards they're not actually you know he just look he plays on the edge but often I feel like it tips over against him when in fact it's a really good robust fair challenge so I think this sounds a bit prosaic but an early yellow card for Caicedo which I think is quite likely could actually mean that City sort of control the midfield and that's the end of it OK another club searching for a new permanent manager is Manchester United of course Matt Lawton reporting on the Times website that United's Chief Executive Omar Barada and Director of Football Jason Wilcox are to recommend to the club's Executive Committee which is headed up by Sir Jim Radcliffe that Michael Carrick is going to be given the job on, should be given the job on a permanent basis.

38:27So that's the recommendation to the owner. He's won 10 of his 15 games, lost twice. United have climbed from seventh to third back in the Champions League. He's won more points than any other manager since his appointment on January 13th. Is this a no-brainer? Yeah, well, it's not a no-brainer because there are good people out there. I was told a couple of weeks ago, I think we've been told who won't get jobs, I suppose, who will get jobs. I was told that Eriola wasn't getting the United job a couple of weeks ago. And there are good managers out there. There are good options out there. All the people that have been mentioned in connection with Chelsea, you know, you could see at Manchester United.

39:08You really could. But Karik has done enough. In my opinion, he's done enough. You look at the games that he's won. You look at the teams that he's beaten. You look at what he has done there. Say that had been a new permanent manager. Say that had been Alonso, everyone would be going, what a fabulous job Xavi Alonso has done when they brought him in in January. What a fantastic job the man has done. Well, Carrick's done that job. So I'd give it to Carrick. Cass? Yeah, I think he ticks the box also of someone who wants it. I mean, look, everybody wants it, but I mean as in, he's not going to ask for the kitchen sink.

39:46I want a five-year deal. I think Michael Carrick, you can just go, two-year deal, and he'd be quite happy with maybe a one-year extension. He'd be happy to take it and a privileged position for him to be in. And give him a chance at a transfer window. Because what happened last summer was the reason why Manchester United have got in the position to get in the top four. It's because they brought in Cunha, they brought in Embermo, Sesco and others that have improved their team. If Michael can add a bit more again, then Man United are not going to be worried about being outside the top four because they'll have enough.

40:20And the deal involves Steve Holland, which I think is incredibly important. Because I interviewed Steve Holland in a piece I did on the art of being the assistant manager. Someone who's never the number one, always the number two. And you could tell you'd want him on your side. You know, it's someone who's prepared to put in all the grafting, all the scouting, all the thinking. And always with the view to making sure the manager has the best possible day when it comes to match day. and you can see how much he talks to Carrick during the match. We've heard that behind the scenes he's really important in terms of bolstering Carrick's confidence and so on.

40:57So I think it's an old-fashioned double deal, actually, and I think for that reason I think it's the right one, that they're going to keep a team together that have quickly dovetailed and brought some happiness to Old Trafford. You see little things happening as well that you think, oh, that's smart, that's unlike Manchester United in the last 10 years. And there was a story in one of the papers, it wasn't there, but it was in one of the papers, saying that they've made inquiries about Valverde at Real Madrid, who obviously got taken to hospital, had a fight with a teammate where you're thinking, might not be a happy bunny.

41:36Valverde's a good player. Suddenly you're seeing Manchester United connected again with guys. He's not Mark E signing, he's not headlines around the world signing, But he's a good player. I mean, when Uruguay played England the other time, every single time Val Verde was on the ball, you're thinking, yeah, this guy's a different class. This guy's a really good player. And so you look at that and think, well, that's smart. That's what Manchester United used to be. They used to, you know, they've got clout. They've got the clout to get a guy out of Real Madrid. They've done it in the past. They've got that sort of clout.

42:09They've got the sort of name once in the Champions League as well to attract serious players, serious, serious players. And that's good. And Carrick's done that. You're a seventh when the men took over. You know, and now they're third. And they've been... They've been comfortable for a long time. They've been comfortable for a while. You know, things could go wrong at Liverpool. Things could go wrong at Aston Villa. Manchester United, for a few weeks now, we've thought, no, they're home and hoes. They're in it next year. And they're not a joke anymore. No, they're not. We were starting to laugh at Manchester United, which seems slightly ludicrous given their history and enormity, but they are now backed a little bit to being what Manchester United should be.

42:54Is Spygate a joke? Let's move on to Spygate. I mean, if you've been hiding under a rock, this is a scandal that's rocked the Skyway Championship playoffs. Remarkable, remarkable stuff. Spygate mark two, we should say, after Leeds United. were found guilty in January 2019. Southampton were charged with a breach of UFL regulations on Friday night following a complaint from Middlesbrough about alleged unauthorised filming on private property. On Tuesday, Southampton beat Middlesbrough, deep into extra time, dramatic, dramatic second leg of the playoffs, to set up a final against Hull City. And on Wednesday, I wrote an extraordinary picture of the alleged spy.

43:38Yeah. A Southampton intern named William Salt was published standing beside a tree with an iPhone. Beside a tree. He's not behind it. He's not a very good spot. He's not the Scarlet Pimper now, is he, this guy? I mean, he's next to a tree. But he's not wearing leaves. No, not what the fans wear in the semi-final. But this is extraordinary. The AFL now have nine days before the playoff final to figure this out. to hold an independent hearing and then probably an appeal. And, you know, the final itself is sort of in limbo. I mean, it's been a remarkable story, Mark. It's a remarkable story and it just shows you, you know, one oversight, one oversight, that's all it needs.

44:26So the response to the Leeds Derby spying case was to pass a new rule. This is why the£200 ,000 that Leeds were fined... 2018? 2019. January 2019. 2019. 2019. The£200... That's why it's not the precedent. No. Because what followed... All they had in place then was a rule that basically said, play nice, boys. You know, it was about respecting... Acting in utmost good faith. Absolutely. Upmost good faith. And then they brought in a regulation 127, as you say. which says no club shall directly or indirectly observe or attempt to observe another club's training session in the period of 72 hours before any match.

45:14And the one oversight is... No punishment. And the punishment will be... And that's all... If they'd have said, and the punishment is, that match is awarded 3-0 to the long side, there's no problem now. Because the first leg goes 3-0 to Middlesbrough, and that's it. and we know who's in the playoff final and we know why they're in the playoff final. But so you make one little mistake, one little oversight of not putting a punishment in place. And now it's open-ended because there was a game played the other night and you didn't know what the result was at the end of it. Because there's the result, but you're going, yeah, but Middlesbrough want Southampton expelled from the playoffs.

45:57So the final whistle isn't the final whistle. The final whistle is going to take place in a room that's not dissimilar to this at some stage in 10 days' time or whenever, because they're talking about, we need to see Southampton's phone records. Have you ever gone back through anyone's phone records or anything like that? I mean, have you ever gone back through your own phone records if you had to suddenly find something? It's ludicrous. So if you've got to go back through Southampton's phone records for the entire season, for God's sake, to see if they've spied on anyone else, the purpose of which I do not know, but see if they spied on anyone else.

46:34I mean, this gets decided around about August. You know, the winners of the player final will be in the fixture list before this is decided if the EFL don't get a move on. Well, the only way out is if Hull City win the player final. Yeah, yeah, yeah, which, you know. Which the EFL will be pretty much... No, it is, though. Because this is going to go on and on and on, isn't it? Steve Gibson's not going to take this line down. It's the owner of Middlesbrough. No, he also had a dispute in the past with Derby County after they've circumnavigated spending rules and I think he got a£2 million, reportedly a£2 million payout afterwards.

47:09Even the press conference after were extraordinary. Kim Helleberg was so emotional. He was on the verge of tears. He was talking about this idea that you do all this work building up to a game of this magnitude and then you feel like you've failed afterwards and then you realise that someone's taken a shortcut instead of going back and watching all their games as he, your opponent's games, as he has. You just send someone up a few hours in the car to watch the training session. And then you've got Tonda Eckert, who we must remember, He's walking out. We must remember, has led the team on a 21-game unbeaten run in his first job in management.

47:45Yeah. And yeah, he's been asked if he's a cheat after the game and then he's been led out of the press conference. I mean, it's remarkable scenes. Well, I actually have sympathy with both managers because Eckert, for example, He's been lauded as having done this miracle with Southampton. And now everyone's thinking, is this built on subterfuge and lies? And has he cheated his way to this wonderful potential outcome? I mean, you know, I'd be tempted to walk out with someone... If it hasn't come from me, if there's just some intern trying to impress his bosses and it hasn't come from me... That seems really unlikely.

48:23We don't know. We don't know. I also think it's pretty unlikely that a coach of a big club would stoop, personally stoop to those levels. See, this is the interesting thing. Because you can look at it, can't you? And people sort of play it down. Oh, well, everyone, you know, they've got all this information. You can work. But when you see how worked up and upset the victims, for want of a better word, are by this sort of behaviour, you realise, right, this doesn't go on then. Obviously, they don't do this. So the same... I was just going to say, Helberg was... I thought he answered brilliantly to, you know, all the stuff that he'd done, his preparation for every game and said, I've literally...

49:10I was phoning home, I'm not coming home. I'm going to spend even more time looking at even more stuff about Southampton by video. And I sort of felt, you know, cool, these guys really do put in shifts of ridiculous hours as to and then so if Southampton are found guilty you raised one potential sanction you have to do it very quickly nothing's in place that Gregor a 3-0 victory for Middlesbrough from the first leg which put Middlesbrough in the final but the prospect of that getting concluded before the final is extremely unlikely there is a precedent of a points penalty I think it was from the Canada women's team in the 2024 Olympics they were deducted six points for spying on New Zealand using a drone and FIFA banned their staff for a year as well.

49:56All the coaching staff for a year. If they're found guilty, what do you think the punishment should be? Putting you on the spot.

50:06I think it would be totally unfair just to go you know, that Middles will go through. I do think there has to be some sort of financial fine and a huge one as well. I mean look, it's a really, I think it's going to be, it's more likely to be a sporting sanction because of the rule in place now. That's the guidance. Yeah, I just, I feel uncomfortable as well that you'd take it that far to being relegated over, you know, a spying behind a tree in a training session. Well, the possibility is maybe they would... Well, if they've got even more evidence, then obviously you make it more severe. You know, if there's another club that comes forward and they can prove that this other club had been spied on as well, that also, that makes it much harsher, I feel, for Southampton.

50:50But there's a chance the points deduction would be next season in the Premier League. Which doesn't help Borough. No. But I'm not sure, would the Premier League agree to that? It's up to them, but they can have that discussion. What would you do? Because they've got such a good relationship with the AFL at the moment with the Premier League, you know. Ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring. What would your sanction be, Martin? I think it would be, I think... See, I would progress Middlesbrough, I must admit. You would? I would progress Middlesbrough because what I would say is that if we had known this, we would have awarded the match 3-0 to Middlesbrough, which we didn't have the time to do because of the way the playoffs are set up.

51:39But this is the sanction that we would have... Don't we need proof that the information the intern gathered was used in the preparation for the game? Well, it can't... No, because if you've broken the law... He had to delete it. If you've breached the law as well, that's the important thing. Or don't we need proof that he wasn't there just because he was keen and that someone... Well, that's what the claim will be. This was built into their system of preparation, that we cheat. OK, you. No, no, no, I'll let him go. You, what would you do? Your point of finger All that's to say Let's see what you think Should be done Yeah I think Whatever it is It has to be sport And it can't be financial Because if Southampton Make it to the Premier League And even if they don't They're still getting Parachute payments A financial penalty Is worthless Yeah So Like It's almost impossible For it to be concluded Before the playoff final Right If they're promoted I think you should Penalise them In the next season Whatever league they're in So for me It would be a points deduction Yeah And it would be But you would allow them To be promoted Yeah, if you could conclude the case beforehand, it's a different question, but I don't think it's impossible in nine days.

52:50And this is the problem, and this is what happened, if you recall, with the Sheffield United-West Ham case, because what the judgment said, and this is why Sheffield United took this one line out of the massive sort of explanation of why West Ham got a fine,£5 million, I think it was, and not a points deduction because the tribunal said they didn't want relegation. It was so close to the end of the season, they didn't want relegation to be decided by what happens in the tribunal office. But had it been a different stage in the season, they would have deducted points. and Sheffield United seized on that, and that's what they sued over.

53:43It's a very similar situation here. You could see a situation where, because what they cannot have is a precedent that it's just a fine again. They can't set that as the precedent, that the punishment for Spine is a fine. So they've got to make it a sporting sanction or have a verdict that says, and again, then it's open for Middlesbrough to sue, as Sheffield United did, have a judgment that says, oh, well, we would have done this, but we can't do this because this would mess up the playoffs. So therefore, it's a fine this time, but it won't be the next time. It's a mess. It's an absolute mess.

54:21And we've been talking about this a lot. And Martin, you've written this week about, you know, processes. Process. All process. Trumping the action in football. And we had the VAR transcript released after the week. Yes. sort of controversy. Howard Webb said on the Mic'd Up programme it was categorically correct to have ruled out West Ham's equaliser for that foul on David Dreyer. Which it was. If, you know, if... You know, we're talking about Spygate, we're talking about the process of VAR, we're talking about all these things. Do we feel that this is really ruining football? That was the headline.

54:56The process, yeah, I do. It's not because... Look, it's not so much... It's just that the arguments are all about process. That's all you ever end up talking about. You don't end up talking about the football. Because, look, if you look at the football, the football is, to say with the West Ham Arsenal thing, football is, it's a foul on the goalkeeper. That's it. That's the football part of it done. And we all agree on that. But you don't agree? You don't think... I do, but there were... You can do that to a goalkeeper? Yeah, but there were... Why did he do that? There was a foul beforehand that may have influenced how he acted.

55:29Well, look, and this is what I mean. Let's not get into that. So then it comes, this never-ending sort of process about, was that right? 17 replays. What am I looking at? And it's all this argument about Keir Starmer. I should make Keir Starmer ahead of the Premier League. He would love it, absolutely love it. Keir Starmer would get a lot of mentions. You could sit there and just go, no, no, no, this is the process. And it just, in the end, it becomes quite wearing. With that in mind, let's finish on a cheery or not. Give us one thing you've loved about this season. I have loved the fact that the Hill Dickinson Stadium is a proper stadium that the fans have bought into.

56:10Having gone to the London Stadium a lot and seen how it's Tumbleweed Stadium, and there was very little effort made to make the fans feel this was their new home, it feels really alien to them still. They haven't grown to love it, and yet the Hill Dickinson Stadium, it's nothing like Goodison Park, absolutely nothing like Goodison Park, but they've made it something that you can fall in love with instantly. And all the Everton fans I know have done that. And it's sitting on the water. It's absolutely beautiful. And it just shows if you put a lot of care and attention and thought about history and what fans love, you can get a move correct.

56:45Good answer. Thank you. Thank you. Martin? The fact that we're two games to go and if a certain set of cards fall the right way, one of Brentford, Brighton or Bournemouth, could end up in the Champions League next season. I would absolutely love any of one of those three clubs to be in the Champions League next season. Gus? I was going to talk about Bournemouth, but I told Alison a story early on and it was my trust and belief in football, my faith in football again, was when I asked Chelsea Football Club about a friend of mine, his nephew, seriously ill, Moose, his name was, he's a big Chelsea fan, And I spoke to Sally Mills at Chelsea Football Club and said, is there any chance that we could do something?

57:35And she came back to me about three, four days later and said, you can come to training, meet the players, meet Liam Rosinia, have a day there. And he had a wonderful day. And I felt these people behind the scenes and giving so much, and it never gets reported about what people do within football clubs. And I just thought that was my really, my trust and belief in football. There is some love in there somewhere. so full credit to Chelsea because we've given them a bit of stick but that is my great memory of the season there we go it's not all bad Cass, Martin, Alison thanks for joining us and thank you for joining us and we will be back on Monday hope to see you then

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