Is De Zerbi right for Spurs? And did Tuchel learn anything?

0:00Let's be completely honest. Are you happy with your job? The fact is, a huge number of people can't say yes to that. Too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never really wanted in the first place. But we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for strawberry.me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be, either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one.

0:38Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan, and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to strawberry.me slash career and get 50 % off your first coaching session. That's strawberry.me slash career.

0:59Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. Tottenham Hotspur will appoint a third head coach of the season after Igor Tudor's 44-day tenure came to an end by mutual agreement on Sunday. Talks are underway with the former Brighton and Marseille coach Roberto De Zerbe, but with just seven Premier League games remaining, will Spurs' latest gamble save them from relegation? England's 1-1 draw with Uruguay at Wembley won't live long in the memory, but we'll be asking who passed or failed Thomas Tuchel's trials. And as a new survey reveals that 75 % of fans don't want VAR in the Premier League, what would it actually take to scrap the controversial technology?

1:38I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me today we have the Times Football Reporter with a focus on Spurs, the poor sod, it's Tom Alnutt. And speaking to us from inside the bowels of the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, it's the Times Tactical Analyst Hamza Khaliq-Lunat. Hamza, I should add, is preparing to hear from Thomas Tuchel at the England press conference in Tottenham. We'll turn our focus to England in the second half of the show. But first, far more pressing concerns in North London right now, Tom. Like, who's going to be Spurs third manager of the season? What can you tell us? Can I have poor sod on my Times profile?

2:11It was up to me. Yeah, I mean, another week, isn't it? Another Spurs head coach, you know, drama, uncertainty, chaos. I mean, where are we this morning? I basically Spurs, I think, you know, ever since early last week, when the club, I think, were minded to move on from Ego Tudor after what has been a clearly ill-fated and unsuccessful interim spell. I think the feeling in the club was that if they could, they wanted to make a permanent appointment this time, in part because of the lessons from the Tudor spell, which, you know, one of the main things I think that he struggled with was kind of the authority, you know, over the squad, a lack of kind of long-term buy-in, I guess.

2:55And in part, I think that's, you know, maybe on Tudor and his personality and his strategy and his approach, but also it's, you know, kind of baked into the idea of an interim manager, right? So I think the club felt if it was possible to make an appointment that was permanent this time, that would give them the best chance of staying up. Now, I think there was a recognition, definitely at Spurs, that that may not be possible. You know, it's clear everyone can see why the kind of permanent managers that Spurs would be interested in the summer, Pochettino, De Zerbe, Iriola, possibly Marco Silva, for example.

3:23not many of them are keen or available to take it now. But I think it was always going to be a case of trying. And I think although the indication from De Zerbe was very much post-Thomas Frank, and if we remember he had just left Marseille at that point, was that he wanted to assess his options in the summer. I think that stance has softened. I think Spurs were more optimistic early last week, post Nottingham Forest defeat, that a deal could perhaps be done, that they could persuade De Zerbi. And I think we are now seeing that process play out. Now, clearly with Tudor, there was a sort of an issue with the timing, given the death of his father, Mario.

4:06He had a funeral to attend in Croatia in the middle of last week. So in terms of the timing and the chronology, it had to be kind of handled sensitively. but the announcement that Tudor was departing after 44 days yesterday on Sunday is now being followed clearly by Spurs trying to make the move for De Zerbi and as we speak here on Monday morning and maybe when people are listening it would have moved on in either way, either direction but those discussions are very much taking place. You're right, there's no certainty to any of this but Hamza, if Roberto De Zerbi were to be appointed by Tottenham That would be a coup, right?

4:45Yeah, I mean, like, they've gone from Tudor's throat to the Cromwell figure, right? They just get out of the stewards and bring to the... Very nice hands-up. I'll be working on that one. Thank you very much. I'm on a walk-up, just not link around. But yeah, I think it actually would be a real coup to get this heavy because of... I mean, you look at the clubs that he was linked with and the regard that he's held with by different sporting directors across the Premier League, it's known to be a fiery figure, which sort of doesn't sit with what something you feel like we've learned from the Tudor period then you probably mugged someone that's a bit less sort of um it's a bit more touchy-feely than Tudor nonetheless the truffinity that the Deserby has is incredible the way that his football is played him it's really interesting he was at the cutting edge um a few years ago um the question is whether he still is uh what when I say that I mean is fluid build-up patterns especially in trying to press bait really sort of set the tone of the tactical response to pressing as a tool, as an advantage of end-defensive tool by other teams.

5:54The question is, what do you do when teams don't trust you, right? How does that tactic work then? But I think, like I said, the regard that he's charged with in by sporting directors across the country, and the list that he has been on, means that if they could securely, it'd be a fantastic blue thing. It's all very exciting, maybe for like next season, but would he keep, is he the guy to keep Tottenham in the Premier League, Tom? Yeah, I mean, I think there's two sort of schools of thought there. One is that the players at Tottenham, I think a lot of them think they're very good, you know, and I think they want to have a manager who they think is good, you know, and I think that is part of this, you know, and we can debate and to be honest, I'm scrambling in my mind about how good these players are.

6:37Are they very good players who belong in the kind of top half of the Premier League? Are they actually players who sort of belong in a relegation battle? Maybe that will be proven next season. But I think part of the thing here is having a manager that the players believe in, you know, and I think De Zerbi for all his faults, and there are, you know, lots of flaws there, which have been played out at his recent clubs. I think his reputation within the game is very high. You know, you talk to people around football and they say his training sessions are spectacular. You know, that when players have trained under Zerbe, he has a way of expressing his kind of tactical ideas and his sessions is very intense and it really kind of gets buy-in from the players very quickly, which I think will be good for Spurs.

7:25Clearly his personality is, let's say, compelling, you know, and I think for players that will also be a big factor in the next few weeks. I think one asterisk, if we're thinking purely in this small window of the kind of relegation fight is that De Zerbi's, you know, tactical ideas are, I don't know if Hamza would, you know, disagree, but they're, you know, not simple. You know, it's not something you can just come in and sort of say, okay, everyone go and express yourself and we play 4-2-3-1 and no worries about it. You know, he has a process and at Brighton, for example, it didn't get off to a great start at first because in a way those ideas need time to bed in.

8:00So whether or not he is, you know, a really good choice for the relegation fight or, a slightly difficult fit for this situation, a short-term situation, I think is not entirely clear. But I have to say, I do think that Spurs can't be picky right now. That is the problem they have, is that if you look at the Venn diagram between managers who they can get in this situation, who want to come in, and the managers who they would be interested in handing a two, three, four-year contract in the summer, De Zerbi is the only one in the middle of that Venn diagram. you know, because all the other ones, Iriola, Pochettino, Silva, whatever it is, they're not available now.

8:38So it's not the choice. It's not whether you have Deserby or Pochettino or Pep Guardiola coming in now. It's, do you prefer to have Deserby or would you rather have someone who hasn't managed for a very long time? Glenn Hoddle, Harry Redknapp, Tim Sherwood, you know, or perhaps Ryan Mason with little experience, you know, at this level. So in a way, it's not an ideal scenario. Clearly it's not. And people will have their reservations about Deserby, you know, in terms of his character, whether or not he's the right fit for Spurs. And, you know, I see that, you know, in terms of the hierarchy at Tottenham, in terms of the lack of sort of football now, so you look at the decision-making at the club, is De Zerbi the right sort of person to throw into that situation?

9:13Perhaps not. But listen, the priority for Tottenham right now, and the only priority in my opinion, is staying in the Premier League. And they have to basically focus on that completely and make this appointment on the basis of who gives them the best chance of staying up. Just finally, just to cover all bases, if not Deserby, you mentioned some names there, but are they realistic? If not Deserby, who? I think it's fair to say at this point, as I say, this podcast will date, but it's still very possible that De Zerbe clings to the reservations that he has about taking the job now, not only being the guy who perhaps takes Tottenham down, but also he could have other options in the summer.

9:57We know there's going to be quite a lot of managerial churn. Maybe Manchester City like De Zerbe, for example, he might think that he wants to wait until the summer to see what else is on the table. That said, I have to say, I think it's slightly underpriced the idea that actually Tottenham long-term, I think is not a bad job. You know, it's a big six Premier League job. I say big six quite loosely these days. Ninth wealthiest club in the world, the stadium, the infrastructure. And by the way, you know, if you finish wherever they're going to finish this season, you get a year, maybe two years where finishing the top half of the Premier League will be probably accepted by Tottenham fans, you know?

10:30And I think any manager who goes in now and backs themselves to keep Spurs up, you know, the long-term position that you would put yourself in as a Spurs coach is a decent one, you know, and let's remember all the best managers in the game right now, they want a job in the Premier League. They want a job with these top six, top eight clubs in the Premier League. And someone like De Zerbi might think, well, in the summer, that's not guaranteed for me. I might be on the short list of quite a few clubs, but he might not be the number one choice there. So as I say, I still think it's very much in flux, these discussions, you know, we're going to find out the next few hours.

11:00Tottenham have still, you know, from the start always, I think, recognised if they can't make a permanent appointment, they will have to go down the interim route again. And if they can't get to Zerbe permanently, then I think they will turn back to that interim idea. There was this possible solution to the idea of another European coach coming in without Premier League experience, but possibly pairing them with a number two, you know, either a kind of fan's favourite number two, like, I don't know, Chris Houghton, let's say, or perhaps a Tim Sherwood, someone who kind of knows the Tottenham, knows the Premier League, has an association with the club and the fans, and perhaps they could kind of get around it that way.

11:38But it's clear, isn't it? You know, the names that you're mentioning there in terms of the interim, Redknapp, Hoddle, Sherwood, Mason, you know, these kind of guys. Sean Dyche has even mentioned. I mean, Dyche, I don't think he wants to take it on a short-term basis, you know? I mean, if they gave him a three-year deal, then maybe he would be interested. But, you know, Sean Dyche, I think rightfully would say he's an established Premier League manager with a great record. like in a way why would he come in for a seven game contract like I think it's fair to say he wouldn't so clearly the interim options you know are not ideal Andrew do you have any sympathy for Tudor at all seven games in 44 days one victory after we should say a 5-2 mauling by Atletico Madrid in the first leg you know given what he inherited given his first game was Arsenal I think he had 13 players to work with his first week in training.

12:32Do you have any sympathy at all for the weight on the world for him? I really do, actually, because as Tom touched on, what we're doing at the moment is on what he's already done is reassess the quality of the players. We discussed this actually a few months ago, right? We said, how should we judge them? Should we judge these players as if they are actually to have sleeve-level quality? If so, then Thomas Brack was feeling massive. If that wasn't true, though if these are sort of mid table-ish players then he's only underperforming slightly and the confidence was super low so some shooter came in that was like an that was the something that he had to sort of grapple with and didn't really have control over he couldn't get loads of new players in the quality was largely what it was so yeah I have a lot of sympathy for him seven games I mean we've discussed before as well the idea that the new manager balance is largely just sort of statistical sort of regression it doesn't it rarely ever actually sort of bears out in the long term the other thing as well just just being here in the top training ground wait what england's up for 20 minutes i also get the sense it's deserved very very quickly for alberpeter so for example i come in and then i just tried to sit and get a room to do this podcast and i'm like no no no it's just you just go upstairs in the mezzoline and you're thinking this is the noisiest copy in the premier league right is it There's no point recording here.

13:58Nonetheless, they're trying to be helpful. But I get what this says. When Zavi would come here and he'd get something like that, I'd just think, why do they accept this weird sort of middle-ish ground of sort of trying to help but never really sort of supporting you in what you're doing? There's another thing. Have you guys ever watched Moneyball? In the film, there's a scene where one of the players is on the flight back with Johnny Cole's cat and says, um so the machine uh and we have to put like the dollar in or something i've never seen any such certain machine with the dollar and jerry hill's character says well you know billy beam thinks all the money that you're that uh should go on to the pitch and the guy says well well i'm not seeing my dollar on on on the pitch and when you get here there's there's something that always annoys me always annoys me there's a so there's a tap right and there's a water and there's a coffee machine next to it.

14:51I'm totally serious. The tap has hot and cold water, but the hot water's been disabled, so you can have cold water. If you want a hot drink, though, if you want a coffee, tea, just hot water, you have to pay for it. Now remember, I'm not one about players in. Families come here. The families are, the families are, the small players, just small people will come here when they're working or whatever. They have to pay£1.50 for hot water. What a joke, right? No, seriously, what a joke. It's just meant to be an elite performance institution. Someone like De Zerbi will see that and go, what is going on here?

15:27Why do my players or their family have to pay£1.50 to have a bit of hot water, to have a tea, for a parent to watch their child play football in the academy? That's a joke. There's no one nearby to get food or drink or hot water, right? This is great colour for my long read on what went wrong. And that£1.50 is not on the pitch. These little things. these little things were great with an elite manager it's the sort of thing that i just got really angry about about certain things being okay honestly you don't get the full sense that this is an elite environment despite the facilities being amazing despite so much investment in certain areas that i think is the core of what they need to change they need to buy elite players that think they're elite and they need to show that they believe they're elite too they can't cut corners get the Zerbe stop messing around with has been managers and managers that aren't really fully qualified to coach the penny lead I think that have to be decisive here this is a really important moment to the club well I never thought that a link between you know paying for a coffee in the training ground and the sort of elite culture of the club would work but Hamza pulled that off there Tom and is he onto something here I mean there are bigger questions like about like we're talking about sympathy for Tudor but there's no sympathy now for the chief executive and I Vinkish Atom and the sportant director Johan Lang like the Lewis family as well obviously moved Daniel Levy on in the summer talked about more wins more often it's been a disaster so like Hamza really is talking about a bigger sort of cultural malaise at the club is this fair?

17:07is this something that you have any faith in the club confronting? I mean the sandwiches are good I'd tell you before press conferences let's get serious come on they give a good selection of raps. There's none here today. There's none here today. I'll make that clear. That's England. That's the FA. Extra grumpy. I mean, clearly, clearly it's a bigger problem, you know, and I stick to the idea that right now Spurs have to focus on just literally staying up and making disappointment. But I mean, the bigger picture here is very clearly a series of mistakes, you know, and I was speaking to someone this week and they were saying that the only way a club like Spurs with their revenues and their backing and their facilities can get in this position like this is where you make a string of errors, small mistakes back to back to back over the course of three, four, five years.

17:56You can make one or two mistakes at Spurs, big ones. You can hire two or three bad managers. You can have one or two bad transfer windows and you should still be finishing in the top half pretty comfortably. We look around the Premier League and you see that all the time. But to get to this position, it means you have to make mistake after mistake after mistake. And that is where, you know, clearly the decision makers at Spurs, the hierarchy are going to have the light shone on them very brightly in the summer, you know, and right now there isn't kind of time, you know, and even the fans are basically saying, okay, you know, we put away the booze, we put away the protest for now.

18:28But in the summer, there's going to have to be a huge reckoning about what's happened, you know, this season. And, you know, there are more problems here, you know, that they still need to and want to appoint a sporting director, you know, or technical director in the summer to go with Johan Langer, you know, to oversee recruitment in a better way. They're trying to bring in more brains into the kind of football hierarchy. So there's basically replacing Daniel Levy because Daniel Levy, and that is the big thing here, you can say, you know, and I think it's probably correct that Daniel Levy would have probably moved on from Frank Suna.

19:00I don't think necessarily Spurs would be in this position in the table if Daniel Levy was still there. That said, the vacancy of expertise and football brains in the building at Tottenham is because for so long, Daniel Levy was doing 20 jobs himself. So when you take out that guy, suddenly you have to replace him with 20 new people. And that is the problem is in a way, it's like a football manager. You know, you have a great team, but you have to keep recycling the players. You have to keep on bringing new assistant coaches to almost lay the groundwork for the football club long term. And I think the irony really of Levy's tenure is clearly there are some very, very strong long term routes there, the stadium, the training ground, the revenues, et cetera, et cetera, you know, the NFL, the Beyonce concerts.

19:44But long term on the pitch, the squad isn't good enough. The identity of the team is not strong. You know, there isn't a sporting director now really who you trust. And that kind of lack of football knowledge, football power and brain power is what is really costing Tottenham at the moment. some fascinating insights and colour Hamza I believe you know there may be more clarity even today so I think probably we'll be speaking about Spurs again on Thursday so I think we'll go to a break now and we'll come back and speak about England which means it's quiz time first of all I'm going to take another one of Bill's One Cat Wonder quiz questions from a brilliant brilliant quiz on the Times website just now this time centre halves okay are you ready?

20:29Jodie Craddock David Weeter Alan Stubbs or Anthony Garner one of them was a one cat wonder for England find out the answer after the break

20:49let's be completely honest are you happy with your job the fact is a huge number of people can't say yes to that too many of us are stuck in a job we've outgrown or one we never really wanted in the first place. But we stick it out and we give reasons like, what if the next move is worse? And I've put years into this place. And maybe the most common one, isn't everyone miserable at work? But there's a difference between reasons for staying and excuses for not leaving. It's time to get unstuck. It's time for strawberry.me. They match you with a certified career coach who helps you get from where you are to where you want to be, either at your existing job or by helping you find a new one.

21:27Your coach helps clarify your goals, creates a plan, and keeps you accountable along the way. Go to strawberry.me slash career and get 50 % off your first coaching session. That's strawberry.me slash career.

21:50Welcome back to the Game Podcast from The Times. I'm Gregor Robertson with Tom Olnutt and Hamza Khaliq Lunat. before the break I asked a quiz question about a one cap wonder for England at centre half and the answer Tom was? Anthony Gardner Anthony Gardner yeah, I have to admit I went for David Weeter, I was sure David Weeter was a one cap wonder he got caps right? Maybe he was more caps not sure about that. Okay we'll check that anyway, Anthony Gardner yes Tottenham player of course, one cap in 2004 against Sweden so yeah, tough quiz that I'd urge anyone to have a crack anyway on to international football before we get on to England very quickly hugely disappointing night for Wales, Northern Ireland and the Republic of Ireland who were all knocked out in the World Cup playoffs on Thursday night Northern Ireland lost 2-0 against Italy Ireland and Wales led against Czech Republic and Bosnia respectively before conceding a lately equaliser in normal time and eventually going out on penalties Tom, for Wales in particular and Craig Bellamy Craig Bellamy, he's been really interesting in his first managerial job after working alongside Vincent Kompany.

22:59First of all, hugely disappointing for Wales, but also what do you think it means for Craig Bellamy's future perhaps? Because I think he might have some interest. I think he will have some interest, yeah, because it's not just about the way Wales have played, but I also think it's the way he carries himself. You know, I think he's really, I don't think we necessarily would have thought this about Bellamy. No, it's been a surprise. As a player, we just remember him as being a gobby centre forward, don't we? You're running around. Combustible. Combustible, getting in people's faces. And I sort of thought as a manager, he might be slightly kind of confrontational and maybe slightly lacking in soft skills.

23:34But I think he's been excellent. And it's always that balance for coaches, isn't it, in the international game. It's almost a bit like sort of managing those teams in the bottom half of the Premier League where it's sort of when do you cash out? because his reputation now I think is pretty high. If he carries on with Wales, does his stock then fall? And then suddenly he hasn't got... I mean, I think he would be in contention for some Premier League jobs, right? In the summer, perhaps. I wouldn't say the bigger ones, but I think some of the lower down ones. So it's a difficult decision for him.

24:07And I think you could really tell in his press conference afterwards just how bitterly disappointed he was. You could see it on his face where he almost just couldn't really understand it. You know, he talked about the penalties, wasn't he? And kind of saying, you know, I don't think they're a lottery. We prepared for them. We could not have done more. And I don't think he was sort of saying, I don't understand how we missed those ones. And, but he was, he couldn't explain it, you know, and I really felt for him, you know, but I mean, that is sport, isn't it? That's football. You know, at the end of the day, sometimes you can prepare and you think you're the better team and it just doesn't go for you.

24:40And it's incredibly painful, I think, to go out this way in this kind of match in a penalty shootout when the stakes are this high, you know, and I really feel for Wales. But they've been on the right kind of journey, the right kind of trajectory. And, you know, successive World Cups would have been a huge step for them, but so close. Yeah, no Wales at the World Cup, unfortunately. Attention turn to England now. 1-1 draw with Uruguay. Not a classic. Tuchel said he had learned a lot from the draw, though. And now a revised 27-man squad will take on Japan at Wembley on Tuesday. Eight players have left the camp.

25:15John Stones, Nonny Madueke, Declan Rice, Saka, Adam Wharton, all with injuries and then Aaron Ramsdale, Tomori and Dominic Calvert-Lewin also go home. So, after Japan, the mighty Japan, given they beat Scotland 1-0 at the weekend, England only have two more friendly games before the World Cup. New Zealand on June the 6th and Costa Rica on June the 10th. In that kind of context, Hamza, like was you know the expanded 35 man squad some players given an opportunity who were a bit of a surprise perhaps was this like a bit of a wasted opportunity I think so actually there were a few players that took an opportunity James Gunn for example was very good Harry Maguire showed some great qualities first on the ball in the first 10 minutes and then towards the end of the maximum some very good defending I think he'll always play doing stuff at intention he's another great match Liverman's have played okay and beyond that there wasn't really too much delight Palmer was bright when he came on so yeah when you asked about the missed opportunity the sets that I got at the match coming away from it was a dissatisfaction rate I mean this is England's penultimate match before the World Cup and the full time the booze and it wasn't just the Van Wijn thing as well there's so many people that had left and I mean this is meant to be you're about to have the grand send off this is part of that send off to the World Cup, this is meant to be the little push that they need, the confidence that they've got the support from instead you get the sense that there's like fracturing here because you have for example the booing for Ben White, the booing of full time you have John Henderson calling out the media saying that the way that they reported on the Ben White issue isn't quite a full story, which obviously the full story is never ever out there, right?

27:14You can try and get as much as possible, but it's never ever out there. But so as in, okay, fair enough. That as in, you probably want to bring Stank Cab then, right? Someone is going to have to talk, as Jonathan Northcroft wrote, about this issue to make sure that that's resolved. But nonetheless, you've now got one player having a pop at the media and you had and the media in general with this that's how Jordan framed it and then you have the fans being slightly upset with the players and I imagine I feel particularly nice about that either right to have a teammate of theirs booed to feel about their sort of being misbeknown which represents me that does sound like a good prep at all so not only is it an opportunity to miss but I think you start with the fristers and frouches that really didn't need to be there if things were handled was it unnecessary then I mean we spoke on on last week's show about the you know Trent's exclusion the fact that he seems to be at best seventh choice right back Ben White was called up after after Gerald Kwanza's pullout I think it was clearly the context here is the fact that he walked out of the World Cup camp in Qatar in 2022 reportedly after a fallout with Gareth Southgate's assistant Steve Holland in a team meeting and as you say Johnny says that he thinks kind of he put it gently but he probably needs to talk about this and explain it but do you think actually this is all completely unnecessary too because you know is Ben White actually going to go to the World Cup even and if he does is he going to play is like you know was any of this necessary?

28:47I don't think it was I think Torres Tuchel must be in some sense it was because Cerise James is injured at the moment and that means that it's not going to be fully fit until the end of the season and it depends on the rehabilitation, all that sort of stuff, and you've got to get up to speed. Then you're into the tournament, so you're starting off with very, very few matches, and then routing up very quickly as you progress. That's a player that you're going to be very careful with. Okay, yeah, maybe you do want to assess the right back. 2 plus big Konza there, and would play Konza there as well.

29:22So you've got a lot of options. Bringing in Ben White, seeing like a strange one before you get to Craig Wright, seeing like a strange one, because he's not playing for Arsenal, he's okay I mean is there any listener out there or are you guys that would say he's better than Reece Jones, he's better than Trent, he's better than Ponza yeah I don't think anyone seriously thinks of him as in the top 4 top 5 English right back I mean that he doesn't play for Arsenal in itself, well Timber is very good obviously but he's okay to cause so much disruption over a player that is okay and needs to clear the air with his teammates whom he walked out on why would you do that before a World Cup why would you like sow seeds of discord within the squad about this issue and then it's exacerbated by the fact that he didn't want to play you can kind of understand if it was an issue between him and Holland that okay maybe that's that but he wasn't a member to Lee Carsley either so what was his issue with playing for England under Carsley with Ashley Colbert's assistant manager it wasn't Holland that's his assistant it was Ashley Colbert so why was he not available then now there's this more there's deeper questions right I don't really think it was necessary at all well I'm sure I'm sure there'll be an opportunity to ask more of them to Thomas Tuchel shortly just I want to ask you one more I want to ask you one more question before you before you go to that press conference which is focused more on your piece that you've written in the times today about another issue which is england's kind of forwards and the player this was you described it was quite a kind of uh stodgy game in midfield um and you described england's accelerators players who accelerate the ball forward through the middle of pitch in particular um are the players who have to step up and that's what your your piece has been about uh in the times this morning can you tell us a bit more about that yeah so like um This is when Thomas Suckel arrived.

31:30He was quite aware of the tactical shade of the Premier League and he wanted his England team to represent it. He very quickly sort of realized, though, that in the World Cup in America, the conditions there, literally the physical conditions, it's hot, it's humid. You're going to have water breaks just in the game up into quarters, meaning that the heavy metal, full-trash tactics aren't quite going to be possible, right? And Antipas probably spoke about this a week or so ago. He can't play Jürgen's heavy metal football anymore in the Premier League because of the stoppages and all that sort of stuff.

32:05So it's not a small cup issue, as we've seen in the Premier League this season. It's a Premier League issue. So then you're thinking about, okay, how do we then get the best dynamic qualities of the players in the England squad from the Premier League into matches? And he's identified wide rotations as the key way to speed up the match. That's not always going to work. And when teams go man-to-man, I was in the Premier League, and as you were, I do, because Marcelo Bielsa's their manager, that gums up the midfield. So making those wide rotations becomes a bit more difficult. So they have essentially identified a few players in the group that are the guys that will speed up again.

32:43They accelerate his thoughts. Cole Palmer is one of those. He's still, when he came off the bench, as soon as he got on the ball, he dribbles and bursts. He tries to speed at the max. He's trying to play a bit quicker. Adam Wharton is another of those. But interestingly, when we asked him, asked Tufla about him after the match he said yeah this is what he does he plays into the middle however he also made some crucial hall losses as well and this is the interesting thing right you can have accelerators in the team but you can't have too many you've got to calibrate that balance very finely because if you start playing a bit too open a bit too attacking suddenly you are more open to be counter-attacked and that will give the opportunity to good teams just finally then if again a lot of these players you're talking about are number 10s If I had to put you on the spot, how many of them are going to go?

33:27Should be Rogers, Palmer and Bellingham as a 10s. I think Thorn will be covers of number nine. I think that'll probably be it. So yeah, more gloob swipes than the group at the moment. I think that's probably going to be their shape. And James Garner looks like he might be playing himself into contention as well. May knew maybe as an eight. So yeah, there's a few options there. Just on Juve very quickly, as in, I think it's really interesting that he made the effort to come to this squad, despite being injured. So he's only going to play a few minutes against Japan. But he's gone out of his way to prove that he wants to play free, join up while he's not fully fit.

34:07And at the same time, you've got a lot of players pulling out. This does not really reflect well on those players. They had a club commitment, of course, but then this became a team under Southgate. And then Lee Carsley, but loads of players called that. with the Ben White thing you start to question whether a lot of these players really really really want it as much as they they stay if they're not turning up at the same time you've got a player turning up to England while he's not fully fit and other players are absolutely desperate like I said the tracks on Fischer is maybe I'm really too much into it but I think they're there which doesn't bode well well Hamza lots to ask Thomas Tuchel about now I think we should let you go and get on with that press conference look forward to hearing and reading his responses Hamza thank you for joining us see you later Tom lots to lots to pick over there I mean what do you think of all the kind of you know England are spoiled for choice in a lot of areas what do you think is Tuchel's biggest headache?

35:12I mean he's got a lot of question marks hasn't he I mean I sort of my biggest worry at the moment is this doesn't feel like a very complete team You know, I'm looking around at the other kind of favourites for the World Cup. And I mean, for example, Spain played their best team, basically, you know, against Serbia. You know, they won 3-0. I saw the report in Inas a couple of days ago saying, you know, we wish the World Cup would start now. You know, they're ready. They're ready. And I think England got a lot of question marks, haven't they? I still think they haven't sorted out that sort of, you know, Foden-Palmer-Bellingham equation, you know.

35:47and you feel that that was the biggest problem coming out of the previous tournament. So why are we still not entirely sure, you know, who's going to play or who's going to start that first game, whether it's Rodgers or Bellingham or, you know, who's going to be in the squad. And I also just sort of look at this team and is it as good as we think it is? Are they as good as they were four years ago? You know, six years ago? There aren't enough players, in my opinion, right now who are in form, you know, who have had a really good season. And you might, if you look at that positively, you might say, some of them have not played as many games as they would normally.

36:18For example, Foden and Bellingham have been out with injury. But apart from Harry Kane, who's had a really stellar season, and if we think Harry Kane in this form could carry England to the World Cup, and it's not impossible, in my opinion, he's playing that well. But otherwise, in the starting lineup, who's really had really, really good seasons? And you look across the back four, for example, O 'Reilly, Gehi, Konza, right back, question mark. It doesn't look to me like a slam dunk, we're going to win the World Cup kind of team right now. There's still time, it's still two months and it's all about momentum and form going into the tournament, not who's playing well and what the team looks like in March.

36:56But I think the question marks in the team and the lack of form and momentum of the players, to me, feels like a problem for Tuchel at the moment. okay well we'll find out more after England's game against Japan on Tuesday night Wembley let's turn now to VAR our favourite subject on this podcast well mine isn't it your favourite subject yeah definitely mine I'm in the chair I'm taking control here Tom so I'm asking you there's no one else here Hans is gone there's no way no one else wants to be on this podcast anymore because Gregor wants to talk about VAR there's no way if Tom Clark was sitting in this chair and instead of you know changing nappies right now that we'd be talking about VAR but I am in this chair so we're going to talk about VAR because there has been, interestingly I think a new survey by the Football Supporters Association which revealed that 75 % of fans do not support the use of VAR in the Premier League now and it's been a pretty remarkable shift when you think about the fact that I think in 2017 before VAR was introduced in the Premier League a survey by the FSA revealed that 74 % of fans were in favour of the introduction of VAR.

38:05By 2021, 63 % were against and now it's back to three quarters of supporters are unhappy with the use of VAR in the Premier League. I mean, how sustainable do you think this is, Tom? You're somebody who has written about this in the past. You wrote a really interesting piece about Sweden, which is the only league in 30 leading leagues in Europe to firmly reject VAR. Norway has also come very close to abolishing VAR, but it was, you know they weren't able to see it through well how sustainable do you think this is to have the supporters on one hand three quarters of them almost if you if you go by the survey really unhappy with the situation and the clubs are completely ignoring them and governing bodies i mean i think football has shown that it is perfectly generally quite happy to go with things that the fans are unhappy about for a very long time ticket prices ownership you know we've seen lots of issues where football will the authorities will carry on with things and accentuate them even further, even despite, you know, fan discontent.

39:06Whether or not it's good for the game, I think is obviously a completely different subject. I mean, I read your piece, Gregor, and I thought it was fascinating. I really recommend anyone to go and read it. And I think part of it is there's this kind of air of resignation, you know, that it's sort of like Pandora's box has been opened. We've invested all this money in the technology. We're 10 years down the line. There's no way that there's any kind of going back. But, you know, it feels like, I mean, do you think that there's any possibility, you know, this meeting that's happening later in the year that they actually will row back?

39:34I mean, to me, it seems almost unrealistic. The best, perhaps, solution is that they tweak it and that they reduce it and they go back to the idea of only being for very, you know, very clear and obvious things rather than what we have now. But the idea of full abolition seems to me, you know, a bit of a pipe dream. Well, tell us what that looks like then in Sweden. because as I say, you spoke to a number of people involved in the kind of campaign to reject FAR in Sweden, which was in 2024. And like, as you say, it almost feels like once the box is opened, you can put it back in the box, but they have never opened the box.

40:09And I mean, you know, you talk to people in Sweden and okay, I haven't talked to every single person in Sweden. I'm sure other opinions are available, but for the people that I spoke to for this piece, you know, they have no regrets whatsoever. The only asterisk I would say there is that there are some people at the big clubs in Sweden who think that they are slightly disadvantaged by it. Because when they play in Europe, for example, they have to suddenly play with different rules to what they're used to in the domestic league. So there is some pushback there, I think, from some of the bigger clubs.

40:34But generally across the game in Sweden, when I did this piece, which was I think a year or two ago, people said, you know, we look at the Premier League, you know, we look at the big European leagues and we see what's happened, you know, in terms of VAR. And, you know, we have no desire whatsoever to get involved in that. And I think that there's a broader point here about Swedish football in terms of the fan ownership of clubs and the pushback more generally against the commercial forces in the game. And you might say that has come at cost. Look at the Swedish national team, look at the Swedish clubs and how they're doing in European football, not as well as they were 10, 20 years ago, either of those teams.

41:09But I think in terms of the domestic league and the product in inverted commas, fans really appreciate the fact that their football is free flowing. It doesn't stop. It doesn't, you know, and actually what someone said to me, I remember now, which I thought was interesting was that there has almost been a slight more appreciation of the job that referees are doing. You know, that actually they see the mistakes over here, even when people can watch replays and take five minutes to make a decision. And in Sweden now, there's a little bit more of a sort of acceptance, more perspective about the fact that of course there are going to be errors.

41:41This is the price we pay for not having VAR. lots more really interesting results in from the survey fans don't in the survey don't completely oppose the use of technology altogether, 95 % support the use of goal line technology I think about 47 % showed some support for as you say the challenge the idea of this challenge system that's already in use in cricket and rugby league and there's going to be a review into that sorry further trials of that as part of the two-year review into VAR by IFAB. One thing that I found really interesting was that only the statement, so there were a lot of in the survey statements that you kind of had to lend support to or disagree with.

42:27And the statement, it is better for the game that more correct decisions are being made. Only 13 % strongly agreed with that. I think that's quite telling. It's like there are more important things than just always coming to the right decision or what people might think is the right decision. And that's, in my view, the fundamental problem with VAR. So anyway, I'm sure we'll talk plenty more about VAR in the future. And you can read about that survey and my comment piece on the Times website right now. We'll be back with an EFL podcast for you this week. We're going to hit a huge Easter weekend of football.

43:01And we'll be back with the main podcast on Thursday too. Hope to see you then.