Is Frank under pressure and is Haaland a great?

0:28Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. Thankfully, Wolves introduced a little chaos to the weekend as they sacked manager Vitor Pereira after a defeat at Fulham. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me to discuss all of that and much more, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers teams in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham, it's Tom Allnut, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Hello team, good morning. Good morning. We're back in a different studio today, Alison, you look quite upset about it.

0:55Yeah, it's atrocious, outrageous. Yeah, you've been taking it up the chain, have you? yes we're in a slightly different studio this week we've been in our fancy brilliant new studio but we've swapped out to allow our colleagues the Rook to go in that studio today talking about the Autumn Internationals now we're all one happy team here Tom it's fine it's poor in my opinion it's the wrong ball these guys might not like it but I do make sure you go and check out the Rook podcast during the Autumn Internationals now there's loads and loads of football to talk about the right ball and one team perhaps not using that ball very well this season that's a poor link isn't it we've done better in the past very clunky but we got there Wolves I should have just said Wolves Wolves sacking their manager Vitor Pereira despite only giving him a new deal in September they picked up only two points from their opening ten games defeated at Fulham Gregor are we surprised it's surprising in the context of the fact that he had a new deal but not surprising in terms of their form maybe no the deal was the surprising right the new deal was the surprising thing I think although you know I'd try to start they're the first in Bill's quality the Lakers call them today they're the first team in top flight history to follow six successive wins with no wins in the next 14 so there weren't you know there weren't grounds for that new contract it maybe took a little long to sign but it was still strange after the start of the season they had and I don't know he just after kind of bringing so much energy and remarkable uptick in performances last season you've got to remember I think I think it was the same they had one in ten games at the start of last season with Gary Neal failed to win the opening 10 league games in both seasons yeah so and they were 17 points above the relegation zone at the end of the season so it is a remarkable turnaround but I have to say like we all kind of you know when we did the prediction show in the start of the season Wills were the team you picked out because the turnaround in their squad having lost more big players yeah and then looking at the replacements there was no Premier League experience whatsoever and there was a lot of just what felt like punts you know players who you need one or two of them to actually hit the ground running and none of them have none of them have made an impact so it's it's a little bit sad because he was he was you know he's someone who's had such a such a kind of remarkable journey in his career as well the number of clubs and the number of he talked about wanting to waiting and wanting to manage in England as well he'd gone for jobs before I looked at his career early in the season I think there's only two or three clubs he's lasted more than two years at he had so many jobs and then it's just completely unravelled but there are bigger issues at Wolves than the manager so I'm not sure that there's going to be any magic remedy here No, well I mean also Charlotte Dunka reporting this morning that Gary Neal is under consideration for a potential surprise return to Molyneux does that Tom perhaps speak of a club and as I say me and Greg are referencing that stat about losing 10 league games at the opening of two seasons back to back now a club that perhaps don't have a big picture idea really going on where they are at the minute.

4:03Yeah, muddled thinking, isn't it? You know, I mean, I think Wolves have sort of toyed around this idea of deferring kind of decision-making to kind of sporting directors and making it more of a kind of fluent club, which is kind of the modern way, right? But I think then Pereira came in and impressed so much that actually they kind of gave him more authority in the transfer market in the summer, which is always a risk, you know? And I think it's interesting because we sort of talk about, I mean, you look at the list of the players they signed in the summer and you're right, look at those names and none of them have got Premier League experience but I guess we look at teams like Brighton and Bournemouth sometimes and they do that and they bring in those players and you think wow they've just discovered this gem from League 1 or something but you've got to get it right it's a really high risk high stakes kind of operation I've still got a core of players who have had that experience in the league for a long long time now we didn't really have that they kind of sold that it does show I think that it's difficult to pull that off year in year out you've got to have a really good recruitment team and eventually it felt like Wolves had to have a really good summer.

4:59You know, if they let go of Kunia, let go of Aitnuri, let go of Sameda, you know, these kind of big players that they, you know, really kept the team ticking over in recent years. They had to have two or three of those signings kind of hit the ground running straight away. And I think that churn and bringing in players who didn't have that experience weren't able to kind of come in and replace those players straight away as done for them. I mean, you look at the stats, they're damning, aren't they? I mean, I think the problem now is who do you get to come in and take on a job like this? Because is it two points, 10 games?

5:25Yeah. and I think that's happened six times before all five teams have gone down and I think four of those five finished bottom you know so that there's no precedent for a team having this bad a start and staying up so if you were a manager why would you want to come in now and think you take over this team and you go down as a relegated manager like it's not a good job to take and as I alluded to in the opening we've been talking this season about this season of chaos things turning on ahead the teams come up have at least showed some promise as well so you're not going in going oh I need to climb out and I'm battling for one relegation place here you know they're bottom and they've lost against all three of the and they've lost against all three and then you've got West Ham who are going to talk about Forest have changed their manager twice and but are looking a little bit improved under Sean Dyche so yeah I mean would you agree Alison with Tom's point I mean who takes a Wolves job now?

6:09Well I mean the ambition is so limited that in some respects it's a relatively easy job to take because you're not being asked to do the impossible which is mid-table which would be impossible you're being asked to perform a Houdini act and I think that is quite tempting to a lot of the egos in managers because you're actually achieving very little, but you're probably treated like a messiah for doing so because... But you don't think even to get them to 17th in the context of what the season looks like, it might pan out much more competitive. It would be very competitive. And if you are going to think it through calmly, you'd probably steer clear because Wolves' raison d 'etre seems to be to survive in the Premier League.

6:51and now this season it's proving to be more difficult than anyone would have anticipated. There was an acceptance, wasn't there? We're getting to, I mean you just had to listen to Gregor on this podcast to assume there was an acceptance that promoted clubs weren't doing enough to stay in the division and they've altered that narrative. I mean it might well be that at least two of them do drift back into the bottom but they've got a head start on Wolves now and if you're joining a club that doesn't have some long-term vision or something about it, which in its structure and history and so on says, we really feel we should be challenging for X, Y or Z.

7:31Wolves don't seem to have that. They just seem to have this sense of, if we can stay in the Premier League, wow, you know, the land of gold and riches and opportunity, we'll be all right. And they don't have that. So you'll probably think, would I get the backing or the support I need from the infrastructure to even just get out of the bottom three. But as I say, the flip side is, because that is such a small, small, you're not asked to win a trophy, you're not asked to get into Europe, you're not even asked to be mid-table, you're just asked to be the Messiah who gets them out of what now looks like even more than it was under O 'Neill.

8:07Yeah. It's now, it would be an amazing task to do. And I think most experienced managers would think they'd have that in them to do it. One thing you'd say is that a lot of this has been inflicted, not inflicted upon them, but it's because of financial spending rules. At least they've complied with them. Like, you know, Forrest didn't, Leicester didn't. Bonus points for complying with rules. No, but when you look at the fact since 2023, summer of 2023, they've sold£330 million worth of players. And look at them, Cunha, Pedro Neto, Matias Nunez, Ruben Neves, Max Killman, Ryan Aitnourie, Nathan Collins.

8:46all of them have gone for decent money and there are players they probably really wouldn't want to sell and the only kind of the problem is like ultimately the only winners out of the players who have come in have been Strand Larsson and Andre and Ja Gomes two materialists ironically who weren't picked at the weekend so that has been the root cause of their decline they've had to sell a lot of players partly to comply with spending rules and they've not been able to pick enough winners Yeah, it's a developing story. So I'm sure we'll pick up Wolves again on Thursday's show later in the week. Alison, just very quickly, a good win for Fulham.

9:22We had a week, didn't we, after last Monday's podcast where we all went, oh, blimey, look where Fulham are in the table. And then I went, oh, blimey, Fulham are suddenly relegation candidates. Don't panic over, right? Probably, I think so. I mean, you've got to look at the managers. In all the games we're discussing today, it's about what the managers did in difficult circumstances. and Marco Silva was one of those managers who had to make an impact. And he didn't get the influx of players in the summer. He's having to juggle what you could argue is potentially a stale squad, but he added zip to it by moving Alex Iwobi into midfield, which is, you know, it doesn't sound like a huge thing, but he did it.

10:04And it worked. And they sort of were more boisterous and dominant in the game and were able to take control of the game and ignore the noise around their 17th place position. So I think they'll be absolutely fine. Yeah, Fulham moving up the table, Leeds and Burnley moving down. But it was a win for West Ham that I want to talk to next. Still in the relegation zone, but a huge, huge win for Nuno Espirito Santo at home against a Newcastle side who are having a bafflingly fascinating season. We'll come on to them in just a second. But Alison, there was a line in your report that you said this was perhaps the first step towards saving West Ham's season.

10:43Is this against the backdrop of what's happening on the pitch? Doing a lot of hagerlifting. Well, it was the most curious afternoon. All the chatter before kickoff was that this is a desperately bad season for West Ham. And what would the atmosphere be like? And there was a planned sit-in after the game, which did take place. there was no practically no one in their seats 10 minutes before kickoff really is that unusual for West Ham is that unusual it's not particularly unusual when West Ham are doing badly but if they were doing well there'd be a bit more of a vibe 10 minutes before kickoff it's the first time I've heard Freed from Desire played and having no impact whatsoever and you're just dancing on your own on my own it's the feel good song and it didn't have an impact at all and then you get you get Jared Bowen hitting the woodwork in the fourth minute and then Newcastle score, go and score at the other end and you think, well, fate has decreed that this is going to be an absolutely abysmal afternoon for West Ham.

11:50And then two things happened. Oddly, given there was no support really in the stadium, West Ham decided to be stoic about this setback and they looked like they were pulling together and creating stuff and being quite aggressive and they didn't exude that negativity that would come from a team at the bottom. And Newcastle, having scored in the fourth minute, clearly just packed up the sandwiches and said, that's it, we've done all we can do here. And so the game sort of tilted to one side. It was very strange. And I mean, Eddie Howe said afterwards they were unrecognisable. To him they were unrecognisable.

12:36They were unrecognisable as a team to an external viewer. So whilst West Ham were able to... So you've got to decide what happened there. Was it Newcastle just so abysmal away from home that anybody, even a team with as poor a home record as West Ham could get their act together or did West Ham get their act together? I mean they did a bit. Did they look like a team? Yes, no they did. they did look like a team. Recently, I've heard from West Ham fans who listen to this podcast saying the selections are awful. You know, Nuno in one of his games recently, I think he played, made change both full backs at half time and things like that.

13:12Whereas I had a friend who's a West Ham fan who said, first time the team's been right for ages. Yes, the team wasn't quirky. The team was like, they put Irving in midfield and he'd been slagged off as being not quite ready for the battle. Potts is unproven too though. But Potts worked. Potts worked. So that was a risk that worked. You could probably argue his man of the match, maybe, because probably so little was expected of him. But the formation, players were in their correct position. Wan-Bissaka was back at right back and played like a good right back. And it was cohesive. Paqueta, who you expect occasionally to have flair if you're lucky, he had flair.

13:55So they did look like a team. They did not look like a team that are being considered as relegation candidates and in crisis. And then slowly the crowd realised what was happening, were very pleased with what they saw. So the atmosphere became positive. They all fed off each other. There was still a sit down at the end, mind you. About a couple of a thousand fans stayed behind to make their feelings known about they don't like the way the club is being run. but if you just watch that game in isolation you would say ah Nuno's gone through a tricky patch getting to know the team he's without a lot of his normal backroom staff they haven't been appointed so he's probably feeling a little lonely but he's starting to get to grips with it but you know the caveat has to be was that the worst away performance ever in the history of the Premier League from Newcastle is up there well I'm definitely going to come back to it in just a second but just on the idea of Nuno Tom like he's a good manager isn't he that's the thing he's got a game against Burnley at the weekend and as Alison said this is perhaps a sign of you know a guy getting it together which will give West Ham a chance yeah I mean we're talking about him not getting the team right in his first few games but it feels to me like he's almost been having like his own little pre-season you know where he's been kind of trying players out in different positions hasn't quite worked maybe but if you go from a kind of Potter style to a Nuno style like there's going to be that sort of transition there I mean I look at the team and suddenly it feels like West Ham got legs again you know and that's always been the problem the last year or two.

15:23In the midfield, it's been way too stodgy, way too slow and ponderous. And suddenly you bring in, okay, Potts, you've got Mateus Fernandes and Pacitar sort of next to him. You've got Somerville suddenly, who's hardly played in the last year or, you know, since he signed. West Ham fans really want to see play. He brings that penetration, that speed on the break. And you suddenly look at the team and you think, actually, yeah, there's some dynamism there again. Whereas I always look to the West Ham side and you think it's a bit sort of noisy. A bit stale, yeah. A bit kind of drop in and kind of keep it compact.

15:49And where's it actually going to go? And I think the one thing with Nuno is it's not necessarily going to be pretty. And maybe that's going to be a problem further down the line for the West Ham fans, by the way. But I think this season, what he'll do and what he's always done, wherever he's gone, get the basics really right. You know, he instills that kind of rigid defensive structure, gives the players really simple instructions. He's not the kind of coach, and there are lots of these coaches in the Premier League now who go really into the minutiae of details and video analysis. Nuno's way is to give them two or three clear instructions and say, this is your job and you do this job.

16:18And I think we'll see that from West Ham in the next few weeks. You know, there'll be a much more simple, straightforward team, less exciting, but I think much more effective. Yeah, positive signs for West Ham. So coming back to Newcastle then, and I teed it up earlier, what a weird and wacky season they're having in lots of respects. They've got Nick Voldemar day, one of the signings of the summer. Everyone loves him. They're doing OK in the Champions League. They've got a home game against Athletic Bilbao on Wednesday, but they're 13th in the Premier League. And Alison Rudd, you said this is one of the worst away performances you've ever seen.

16:44Yes, well, I'll tell you why. I'll tell you why. Because they're going to a club in crisis. You have a very poor home record. So if fate has decreed that you are a club whose away form isn't as good as your home form, this is the game you pick to get your away form going because you're facing a team in the doldrums who've got no support. You're not even fighting against a fan base. and you score early in the fourth minute and you've managed to avoid going a goal down by the width of a post. Fantastic. Gods are on your side. Go for it. They completely slowed everything down to like, well, it was like watching a game on treacle.

17:30It was awful. They slowed it and slowed it and slowed it. Talk about coasting when you've taken the lead because for like five or six minutes they looked great and then they slowed everything down. Eddie Howe made three subs at halftime, said he could have, for the first time in his Newcastle career, he could have taken everybody off, you know, anybody and everybody off because it was the worst he'd seen them play. There was no dynamism or energy. He called them unrecognisable. And if you were to play back-to-back some recent home games from Newcastle with that one, you'd say, this does not compute what is going on.

18:08How can they be the same players with the same manager and the same history? How is that possible? And it is incredibly strange. It's as though at home, because it's a great place to go and there's a great atmosphere, they feed off it and they're full of energy and they push and they have that dynamism that was so lacking. But I do not see why you have to be the inverse of it when you go away. and it's very strange that Eddie Howe can't solve it. You talk like all we want about the tactics and the personnel and stuff but Nuno basically summed up afterwards like it was about the fight and the desire that's like West Ham haven't shown that for a long time for whatever reason and he did in this game and Newcastle didn't.

18:51That's why the result was was what it was. Is there a bit of a home and away thing going on with Newcastle this season? I mean in terms of results you know draw at Bournemouth defeat at Brighton defeat at West Ham but they're getting wins at home big wins in Champions League winning the cup you know yeah there's a lot of contrast there's a home and away contrast there's kind of Europe and the Premier League contrast and to some extent and you know goals as well there seem to be free scoring in Europe but not quite as much but there is an interesting thing here where it's you know it's early days it could be a good season but they could end up having one of those seasons where they get to semi-finals of cup competitions and finish eighth and you're like oh that's oh actually that's a bad season isn't it you know Aston Villa had it last season where they're fantastic in Europe brilliant they gave PSG a great game and absolutely brilliant and then just at the last minute they fall into the Europa League and they're like oh my god we've messed it all up it's like that's how tight it can be yeah I mean not everyone can finish in that one spot of fourth or two spots of fourth and fifth you know so I mean you look at the table now I mean you've got between 8th and 13th you've got Man United Aston Villa Newcastle Brighton Palace where everyone thinks they've had good starts like there's sort of these sleeping teams down there who actually I think are kind of going under the radar it's a very tight and condensed table but I think the reality is when you have two or three kind of outliers, Sunderland, Bournemouth, for example, suddenly some of those big teams assume they're going to be in the big six.

20:09I think they probably will be eventually. But for now, you know, it's a very tight mid-table, isn't it? You know, you can win a couple of games and you get up there at the moment and you lose a couple and you're in the bottom half. Yeah, intriguing season for Newcastle. We'll see how they get on. I'm sure we'll discuss them on Thursday's show after that Champions League match. Talking about teams sleeping in that mid-table area. Tom, Manchester United, Gregor, getting a draw at Nottingham Forest. 2-2 was this a fair result firstly that kind of nice broad open-ended question for you to take wherever you want was this a fair result in the game just about yeah yeah I mean Forrest were the better team in the second half no doubt Manchester United were decent in the first half and they probably could have gone in maybe 2-0 up actually and then just the start of the second half was like you just realised that all the progress from Manchester United in recent weeks is probably quite fragile why so what happened two crosses into the box were they sleeping were they sloppy they started the half really badly and Forrest started it absolutely like fuelled by indignation of the circumstances of the first goal which was obviously the ball wasn't out shouldn't have been a corner kick awarded it's the second week in a row that they've had an incident like that it happened at Bournemouth last week and as much as Deitch said afterwards like he said just put that no disappointments not no disappointment like it's one of his sayings he's always said I've got these sayings he's like no disappointments we'll part that to the end of the game but that really is saying like come on he said play with freedom but really it's like that's a joke come on go out and put it right and they did they flew at them at the start of the second half scored two goals in two minutes and then they were quite comfortable as well like United had one chance when Bruno Fernandes Daisy Cutter hit the post and then Casemiro didn't didn't manage to tuck away the rebound and then it just needed a moment of magic from Ahmad and it was a moment of magic what a goal and it's kind of his sort of performance and his presence actually in United's team kind of sums up a bit about where they are there he's not a wing back you don't think well we had this conversation before where he was fantastic against Liverpool he's been a big positive like clearly he scored his goal and he had another attempt in injury time another great can-half volley cleared off the line brilliantly by Murillo so he could have won the game for them but at the same time like he was jumping with Morgan Gibbs-White for the first goal the equaliser like he didn't look like he wanted to be doing that and Forrest were trying to isolate him as well like they often fullback would go inside as opposed to trying to like they'd just leave Callum Hudson-Odoi with him one-on-one and he had a bit of a difficult time that to be fair Dalot did as well on the other side Is that avoidable Gregor?

22:54If you have a wing-back like that should it be someone like Jorre for example who shifts along and sees that happening before it happens. Well, clearly that's one way around it, but if Forrester trying to almost create the overload inside as opposed to outside, then that gives him a conundrum. So it's not an easy, really what you want is a wing back who can defend and he's not that. But then you lose that attacking. Yeah, but Amirim said that after he admitted it, he went, I know he can do better, but we leave him on the pitch for that reason. And you can't really question that because he is one of their most like dangerous creative like outlets So would you say he's more of a like a four a winger like a traditional winger he's a winger he could be playing in the ten rule like but Mbwemo and Cunha have been good and they were they were quite good again in this game in the first half in particular and Cesco although he still looks a bit of the weak link I mean he he made good runs he stretched for us back line and that created the space for Cunha and Mbwemo but there were times where like chances fell to him and he just doesn't look convincing yet and one really good half like shot on the turn from 20 yards and whistled past the post but then Mbrembo as well later in the first half arced this beautiful ball from the halfway line into his path and you're just thinking you know it's a touch and a finish or even a first time finish and his touch just let him down it rolled straight into the keeper's hands so he needs to kind of up it really but the other interesting thing was Amaram's sort of response to it he said we'd lose this game like in past not so long ago basically we would lose this game and actually he said probably quite comfortably buy more goals so he recognised he's so honest he doesn't need to say that like he doesn't need to but the first line's good enough Ruben you don't need to have the extra like the extra humdinger just leave it we're happy with the first opening line that's great but are you still watching have we moved on from the I hope we haven't moved on from the 3-4-3 debacle.

24:56Are you still watching Man United live and thinking, oh my God, if only they had a decent formation, they'd be a better team. Just very quickly before you answer that, I noticed the stat, this is the 37th Premier League match in charge for Manchester United, but Ruben Amarim named for the first time an unchanged starting XI for the first time. Yeah. So that idea may, you know, we're all saying after Liverpool, you know, he's cracked it. This is the team. This is the XI. There were things in the first half you were watching thinking, no, this, you know, they do look more sort of comfortable and sort of aware of their roles and responsibilities and like having Luke Shaw is so important there were times where he gets steps out and plays that kind of eye of the needle pass like incisive ones breaking the lines into Bruno's feet he did that in the first half in fact great ball in Tim he played it out way to Diallo and that's when you think oh they can cut through a team quite quickly in this shape Diallo's moving forward and he cut inside and almost scored like even Casemiro and Bruno on paper you're thinking and actually long term you're still thinking but they're doing a job they're doing the job pretty well now and Cunha and Mbembo are really important so you're starting to see that they look more comfortable in it so like centrally the spine but then you've got questions at the wing backs which is the most important position in this system Dalo too I mean he's been someone in any other era in Manchester United's history he might have like 20 appearances he's not I don't think he's a Manchester United player.

26:22And he's solid. And if it's, if they're playing a back four and he's right back, he's solid. But asking him to play on the left as a wing back is a lot. It's a big ask for him. And ultimately the wing backs are still the biggest issue. But then long term, what do they do? I mean, do they sign a right wing back, you know, who's a bespoke wing back? And then, but then how does Ahmad get in the team? You know, he doesn't. And he's one of the best players. That's his problem. Like ultimately they need to be in a position where they're not relying on not saying if we don't have Mbembo or Cunha playing who are we playing they want to have Mount on the bench they want to have Dallo fighting for that position that's what they need and they need people who are comfortable in the wing back positions I'm not sure Dorgu is the one I mean why is Dorgu not playing he's obviously got some doubts yeah interesting just a final word on Forrest to bring it back to them you've seen three matches of the Sean Dyche era now think they'll be okay I do yeah I mean yeah the one thing about Deitch is he's kind of he's all he spent a lot a lot a lot of time already just complaining about refereeing decisions and he has grounds to he's a Nottingham final sparrant he has to he's in the contract no he's Deitch it's John Deitch in your room oh yeah this is this is why like BJMOL must have been oh god he's back because there's no one who's going to make a louder noise about the circumference of a ball being like maybe a few millimetres over the line and that's what it was like and it actually is interesting if you think about it given all the it's an interesting sort of debate all the march of technology and far it's a blind spot isn't it yeah it is ultimately you're relying on an assistant referee on the other side of the pitch that's almost 70 metres away looking through as Deitch was making clear very loudly looking through the posts looking through a crowd of players and trying to decide whether that ball is out or not and the referee is at another angle which is not straightforward although you don't want the march of VAR to kind of this sort of creep ever further into the game it's a blind spot leave it leave it there's enough why could you not have assistance on both sides of the pitch there it doesn't have to be VAR it can be another buzzer can't it if they bother putting the investment into the technology can you extend the Hawkeye thing from the goal line technology I don't know there was no idea wasn't there to have officials on the goal line yeah there was penalty box officials they did it in a tournament didn't they in an international tournament and it just created more people making bad decisions.

28:51But also if you only had one, you'd have to have the guys running around the back of the net to try and get to the right side. But it's also the perfect illustration of how VAR has made us think that everything should be perfect. Anyway, I asked you if Norringham Forest were going to survive. Sorry, sorry. No, no, I think... Yes. I think they were really good against Porto. They were knackered against Bournemouth and they were good in this game and actually could have won it. they had a chance they had chances Hudson-Odoi and Elliot Anderson had a chance just before Ahmed had the chance to win it so either of them could have won it it was a great game yeah positives for Nottingham Forest and some for Manchester United in there as well I tell you what Alison I do like being back in the studio it keeps you on your toes with all the mad noises you can hear in the background just in case you're picking any of those up in your ears when listening to this show it's not us I promise it's just the inner workings of the News UK building we're going to take a little break but we'll come back there'll be loads and loads more still to talk about at the top of the table, but it's time for a little quiz question courtesy of Bill Edgar's column in the game.

29:50Which Arsenal player is the first to win on each of his first 10 starts for the club? Find out after the break.

30:10Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark. and I've got Tom Ornutt, Alison Rudd and the man who, you're basically cheating at the quiz now because you know where I get the quiz. Because I read the paper. You get the quiz, you know where I get these. Imagine reading the newspaper this morning. Don't prepare to come on a football podcast. That's cheating. That's no good. The answer to the quiz question, Gregor, was? Ebi Eze. Ebi Eze. Winging first 10 Arsenal starts. We'll talk about them in just a second but let's talk about two other clubs in London. Tottenham and Chelsea.

30:38A big game on Saturday evening. Tom, you were there and I think we've got to start with Tottenham. which is your club, your expertise for the times. Gregor, I mentioned on last Thursday's show about a couple of listeners who got in touch after last Monday's show, very upset that we hadn't mentioned Tottenham. They'd gone to Everton, they'd won 3-0, fantastic. Why hadn't we mentioned them? Anyway, listener Chris, who might have been one of those people last week complaining, got in touch with me this weekend to say, Tom, remember last week when you didn't mention Spurs on the podcast? Please don't mention them this week.

31:10I now agree that Spurs is not an important fixture to focus on. That Liverpool team, wow, they are back. Much more interesting, I'd say. Well, Chris, unfortunately for you, like most journalists, I am a bit of a contrarian at times, so we're dedicating all of the... No, I'm joking. But we have to start with Tottenham. It's very interesting what's happening at Tottenham at the minute, isn't it, Tom, with Thomas Frank? Let's start with the manager. Boo's at the end of this game, and I was speaking to a couple of my colleagues on the desk who are Tottenham fans who often give us a good grounding.

31:41They're season ticket holders. as they go. Nick, he said several things. Most conservative team he could have picked, in his view. There seems to be no plan for playing in possession. If he doesn't change something soon, he won't last long, I don't think. Never heard boos like it on Saturday. It's giving me Nuno vibes. So this is, and this is not me, this is from a Tottenham season ticket holder. Your thoughts on all that? I've heard boos like it at Tottenham, for sure, in the last few years. But it's definitely true that Tottenham are not passing the eye test at the moment. I think if you look at the sort of table, fifth, the third at kickoff, unbeaten the Champions League, I think if you're not sort of seeing Spurs play week in, week out, probably a lot of people are thinking, what are they moaning about?

32:23You know, the results look okay. And actually, strangely, I think they've got the best record in the Premier League away from home. I think they've taken 13 points out of 15 or something. But the real problem has been the home form. And it's definitely true that creativity has been an issue throughout the whole season, to be honest. It's been kind of rumbling on that at home, they haven't been creating enough, not enough fluidity. The forward players, none of them really informed. Kudis had a really good start to the season. Even he now has started to tail off. And I think all those kind of concerns really came to a kind of a head in this match because there was this idea as well, I think, going into the game.

32:57Spurs are really drumming up this idea of making the atmosphere better, you know, improving the sort of the home form, getting everyone together. There was a new kind of pre-match video from Frank up on the big screen where he was talking about energy and noise. They had sort of the fire blasting out. the fans had kind of met up before the game to sort of, you know, pump up songs, you know, a bit earlier than usual. There was this idea, let's kind of get in together, this big London derby, 5.30 kickoff and make this kind of a reset almost at home. And within five minutes, you know, Spurs just weren't creating anything and everything just went, you know, downward.

33:29And you sort of think, is it, is it the frank approach? You know, is it that he's kind of tweaked the dial too much? Because ultimately you have to go back to the start of the season. You think, well, where were they under Ange? Of course, you know, what were the, what were the kind of top two or three things on the to-do list. I nearly got relegated. For Frank, right? They were. Bring in some defensive steel, like make them more adaptable, make them harder to beat, better from away from home. And all those things, you know, to be fair, tick, tick, tick. You know, Frank has done those jobs and he's done them quickly.

33:53You know, we're two or three months in and this Tottenham team looks much more solid, much harder to beat, much more compact. And the stats say that as well. But it is true that creatively, they're really struggling. And it's 0.01xg at home, even against a side like Chelsea, you know, is you can't blame the atmosphere. You can't blame the fans. You can't even really blame the players, I don't think. You know, there has to be more than that. And I think the problem that Frank has right now is people are already starting to think, is this a Brentford manager, you know, who can't do it for a Tottenham team?

34:25You know, was he good at Brentford where he was able to kind of instill culture and unity and that would get you so far? And particularly against bigger teams, you could sort of adapt and they come up with a sort of a bespoke game plan. But actually, when you have to sort of create a team to go on the front foot yourself, is he able to do that? And I think that question mark now is kind of getting a little bit louder. What I would say, I have to say, is that if you look at the Spurs options at the moment that he has in the kind of the front third, you know, we go back to that sort of, you know, that Potch era team.

34:57You've got Dele Alli, Eriksen, Son and Kane. You know, since Eriksen left, the players Spurs have signed in those positions in the last few years, Xavi Simons Kudus Tell Madison of course injured at the moment Manus Solomon Timo Werner Dan Juma Brian Hill Bergwijn and now Kodim Wani I mean none of them have been successes I mean even Madison who had a good streak under Ange obviously out injured now and Kudusevski out injured as well two big misses Solanke of course so there's some real injury context there but Spurs haven't had enough hits in the kind of front department for too long and you look at the players that Frank's trying to deal with right now with the injuries with the signings that are kind of struggling.

35:36Richarlison, Odderbeer, Kudus, Bren Johnson coming off the bench. These are sort of players you wouldn't really be surprised to see in a Fulham squad, in a West Ham squad, you know, no discredit to them, but it's not a kind of top four. It's not a top four or top five team, is it? So it's an absolute miracle, the fifth. Here we go. No, but it is. When you strip back what Tom's just said, and I agree with everything he's said, they do not have creative, really good creative players they don't have them let's remember they're tied on points with Manchester United who are in eighth like the table is is odd so far I don't think I don't think they're the fifth but are we not but are we not in Gregor Robertson both things can be true territory here of where you can be all the things Tom has outlined and that Thomas Frank we've expected him to do I think that's the thing surely is that not the question Alison if Tom if I'd said to you we'll be sat in early November and Tom our Tottenham man will have come on and said Thomas Frank's made them more solid, good away from home.

36:37But would that not be the most obvious thing that Thomas Frank could have done? Is that not also against him? And that is why when you move to a big club, a big club with big home support, and I'm going to bring in another Tottenham fan here, Glenn, who works at the Times as well, who I'm often referencing, who tweeted at the weekend, this is not Frank out, which I'd say is like the supporter version of like a club statement backing your manager. This is not Frank out, but I think he's smart enough operators to get it right with time. But I do think the horrible style of play and terrible home form mean he's under a lot more pressure already than most observers outside Spurs realise there's two more home games this week in the Champions League and then against Manchester United at the weekend, they've got Copenhagen.

37:17That's what I mean. Can both things not be true? He can be fantastic at the things Tom has outlined, but you've got to then go again, Thomas. You've got to go higher. You're at a bigger club now. There's more expectation. Absolutely. but he can't do it all in six minutes can he for a start and also you say this is where we might have expected to be they're a good away from home but not at home but I don't know why you'd think that necessarily he was very good at making a very small stadium for Brentford really quite intimidating and it shouldn't have been but he made it so and he kept the fans on side but where he could play a certain way at home and it was acceptable because it's acceptable to play at home in a certain way for Brentford when you're getting results I don't think any manager could have gone in with the personnel he's got, inheriting a team that nearly got relegated.

38:07And it's strange. We've all agreed now that this was supposed to give them the edge, this glitzy stadium. It doesn't. It gives the opposition the edge. They love turning up there. You can always hear the away. I don't know what they've done with the acoustics, but you can always hear the away fans. It's really strange. This wall, this Dortmund style wall they were supposed to have doesn't work. it really doesn't work and if the fans are starting to complain about Frank look at yourselves first because you could help that team if you gave them proper proper support in this huge stage they're very quick they're very quick to see the negative one shot on target though 0.01 xG it's hard to get behind that they were appalling in that match and Chelsea pressed really well man for man almost wasn't it it was press press press and they didn't know what to do they just almost fell apart but I do think I do think it was only 1-0 and any chance they had to turn that game on its head would have come from a spark of brilliance from an attacker and there was no attacker capable of a spark of brilliance.

39:08But some of it is kind of structural. Remember Tom and I were at the Villa game and the whole first half it was a bizarre game to watch wasn't it? They were kind of they've sort of spoken about they're kind of horseshoe they were knocking around at the back and they were just always a tell would make a run to try and go behind to play a long ball and they would like no we'll not do it we'll just keep knocking around the back for a bit and Villa were like only pressing on their terms so they're just we were just watching the team pass it around at the back like with no no sort of intent attacking intent whatsoever apart from trying to pick out the perfect moment or circumstance for someone to make a run in behind to play the long ball and like they need something more than that it's either that or get the ball to a winger and hope that they do something they're not really even any kind of like creating really any good overloads or any sort of like certainly I don't know any overloads that have any sort of purpose but is the point not that as I say these fans in this home stadium that you need to have performances that the home fans will believe in once you're at this level because then I mean bigger managers and more famous managers than Thomas Frank have had this problem at Tottenham haven't they Conte, Mourinho they all went in and the fans eventually went this is rubbish we hate this we hate watching this football has he got enough there?

40:25You've said quite rightly, Tom, I think that some of the players there aren't perhaps of a Tottenham level or standard that the club would expect. But is there enough there for him to change it, as I outlined there, two big home games, Copenhagen and Manchester United, before then two away games, Arsenal and PSG? Yeah, I mean, the style thing is always kind of put on Tottenham and it is definitely there. But ultimately it's about results. I mean, when Conte's team was playing well and, you know, soaring into the top four, no one was worrying about that, you know. And the problem with Tottenham's home form is they haven't been winning enough.

40:55You know, they drew it home to Wolves and Wolves have basically lost every other game this season. You know, it's not just about we want to see free-flowing football. They want to just see wins ultimately and they haven't been winning enough. I mean, I think, is there enough there? The thing with Frank is when he came in, he can tweak the system, you know, and find solutions. And I think that's what he's got to do now because ultimately the January transfer window is not around the corner. And then also, what are they going to sign in January? Probably not very much. So he's got to deal with what he's got.

41:21they will have Kulisevsky coming back in December hopefully Solanke's meant to be coming back the next two or three weeks will make a big difference Maddison much much further away I mean you go back to the summer as well and you think now if they had Gibbs White in this team would that make a difference if they had Eze in this team would that make a difference saving that kind of 10 million maybe to get those deals over the line quickly and instead they brought in Xavi Simons who to be honest has been a disaster so far you know he just has not hit the ground running at all. Colin Mwani who's taken two or three months to get fit and sharp.

41:51If you sort of make those kind of corner cutting in the transfer within the summer, this is the cost of it. You know, you're in November and you're still waiting for your two kind of statement creative signings from the summer to actually make a difference. You know, and if they had maybe two Premier League proven players or even one of those players, what a difference that would make. If he had Brian and Bumo and Johan Wisser, it would make a huge difference. That's what he had at Brentford. So, I mean... You're actually saying he's got worse forward line than he did have a club that was supposed to be fighting relegation every season.

42:20But that said, the game against Chelsea was beyond that. I think it's worth saying that. It was really poor and Frank wasn't hiding. He came into the press conference afterwards and you could tell from his body language the way he was talking that he was... I mean, he said, I'm burning inside. He said, I've never in my coaching career managed a team that created so little. He understood that what he'd just seen wasn't, oh, it was a bad day against a good team, that can happen. He was honest about it. There was obviously the Van de Ven and Spence incident as well. I think he knows he's got a problem.

42:49You know, I don't think Frank is looking at the table and thinking everything's all right. What is everyone moaning about? He knows he's got a problem and that's a start, you know, because I think if we think of what the strengths of Thomas Frank and you can talk about the Brentford thing and the, you know, can he create, et cetera, he is a solution finder, you know, and I think now he has to look at the team and say, okay, this isn't working. We have to try a different shape, different system, maybe bring into up front, whatever it is, they have to find something different because it's clearly not working right now.

43:13Yeah, just finally a word on Chelsea. Pete Rutzler, our colleague, writing in the paper today about them being very good against teams that are very good at set pieces, which has obviously been a strength for Tottenham so far this season. There is part of this where Chelsea nullified Tottenham's main attacking threat, right? Yeah, Sanchez was good. He claimed everything, you know, the set pieces. A phrase not often said on this podcast, actually. Sanchez was good. The long throws, the corners, you know. Chelsea made them look like they were, you know, no threat whatsoever. Sanchez came for everything, caught everything.

43:41I thought it was a sort of clever performance from Chelsea. It wasn't, for me, sort of a spectacular display and actually they probably at the end could have won 3 or 4-0. There was the Benton-Curred card as well, which could have put Spurs in real trouble. But I thought it was a really smart kind of display. They pressed really well. They were very good on the counter-attack. It looked to me like a team that had a really clear plan and executed it very well. And there were two or three great performances. I mean, Kaiseido was just superb again everywhere. Ultimately made the goal with his kind of his pressing.

44:14I thought Rhys James did well in midfield. Sanchez, of course. Jao Pedro obviously got his first goal in nine games. I thought it was a smart performance from Chelsea. Not brilliant, but I think it was a really good away win. I mean, they love going to Spurs. They've won, I think, six out of seven now at the Spurs Stadium. I mean, that's an incredible record. Yeah, as Pete Rutzer said on last week's show, Chelsea are able to pick it up when they need to most in the big games. They've then got Carabag, Wolves and Burnley up next. So we'll see if they can get the results against teams that they should be beating.

44:38Let's finish with a look, as I said, at the very top of the show, at the top of the table, a familiar look. and Tom, you've not been on this podcast for a while, but a few weeks ago you said, calm down, Tom. Don't get carried away with this whole chaotic season. The established order will be back. Policy or no policy? No, not at all. Because I still believe. I still believe in the chaos. I still believe in the chaos. But Liverpool, let's start with them. Alison, a big win for Arnie Slott after so much talk. So much talk. A 2-0 win. Arnie Slott of last season is back. It's a clean sheet. It's 2-0.

45:08It's job done, lads. Are you actually on board with it? You weren't on board with the 2-0 wins last season. you must be now well I think it was it was really important but I'm not sure it wipes everything clear and everything sparkling and wonderful again for a start it's I mean he basically relied on last year's team to get him out of the hole apart from Eketike and Eketike's been the one success story from the summer signings he's I mean and I can't stress enough how marvellous it is to see someone who just gets to grips with the Premier League you know within minutes of arriving. So he's beloved by the crowd.

45:46He's integrated beautifully. But other than him, it was last season's team. So you kind of think, well, there are still problems around the corner because he's going to be under pressure slot to integrate the players the club has spent a lot of money on. And how is he going to do that? Because that's been a part of the problem with Liverpool is they haven't looked cohesive and the signings haven't felt right. The other reason I wouldn't get overexcited about the result is Villa. this was a weekend where a lot of teams did not turn up and I don't think Villa turned up properly I mean I don't think they're probably capable of doing what they should have done but they played into Liverpool's hands they tried to pass out from the back and that went horrendously wrong for the style of goal for everyone like deciding that this is madness you're just doubling down on it you'd see you see what's madness sorry you mean the style of play yeah you see you see Martini standing on the ball all the time now just like like drawing the opposition in forward to try and play out and create space and like most teams now like are realising that that's suicidal but Villa doubled down on it that was another theme of the game the Tottenham game so yeah I mean they gifted them the goals I mean do you think I mean that's the question do you think Villa are built in a way that they could have mimicked what Brentford did the week before I don't think they are built that way you mean play direct and been physical they didn't really challenge either and Slott had kind of actually said as much he said teams are playing direct and we've not really figured out how to deal with that yeah exactly we'll do the opposite we'll do the opposite well I mean this was a theme of your piece at the weekend wasn't it Gregor about the changing styles that we're seeing not just in the Premier League but all over the place I mean do Villa need to get on board with it or actually are they going to find a benefit in being an outlier I mean in fairness although they do that they're trying that's a way of them playing kind of direct quite quickly the problem is they just fumbled it I think it was Paulo Torres wasn't it for the second one trying to play under pressure a pretty aimless ball into the striker yeah I mean I have my doubts about it because teams are so good at pressing now basically like there was a stat I think I said the other day that the team who created the most goals from high the teams who created the most goals from high turnovers last season were Liverpool and Bournemouth and they faced the most long balls this season so teams have gone looked at it and thought why would we just play into their hands like there's also the environment's changing isn't it the sort of what seems kind of culturally acceptable is changing teams are going there's a lot of focus on set pieces you know physicality strength power this is another sort of string to that but it's like okay let's park that risky risky business for a bit and go along and like ultimately as I say when teams are so good at it you're playing yourself into trouble you can gift them a goal and then gift them another goal the game's gone Mo Salah back on the score sheet as well equaling Wayne Rooney's record for most goal involvements in the Premier League for a single club with 276.

48:39Also became the third Liverpool player to 250 goals after Roger Hunt and Ian Rush. Alison Rudd's got a hand in the air. I'm very polite for the first time in the entire time of doing this podcast with you. I am aware that I've just pointed out why you shouldn't get carried away by a victory over Villa who got their tactics wrong. But having been at Brentford and seen in the flesh how negative the body language was amongst Liverpool players with the exception of Dominic Sabozlai, every player looked up for it they looked back in terms of resting them from the midweek Carabao Cup game could have backfired it didn't they came back full of energy and positivity and the crowd responded accordingly so it could well be the reset that was needed but there are still big question marks isn't this what Slott should have done from the start of the season yeah but he's not used to see this is the problem he's never been in a situation at a big club where they spent big money and known how to do it I think he was under pressure to throw them all at games.

49:35We just got over excited. It's like on Championship Manager where you signed loads of players and you think, I want to put them all in straight away. He shouldn't have, but I don't think he's ever been in that situation before. Like stick with the sort of the solid base of the team you had and gradually, you know, ease in the signings. You know what I mean? One signing in this starting line-up, wasn't it? You know, and I think Soboslai is, I think he's like so key to this team. Playing him in the right place, that whole sort of right-back experiment, I think it's just really tilted Liverpool in a way that you need him in that central midfield.

50:01He just brings so much. McAllister as well you know I think his absence has been been massively I think he played his first 90 minutes since April Bradley played 90 at right back where he where he should be just the balance looked better yeah I mean we had a listener Ashley get in touch as well after last week's show talking about how we not mentioned the past sad passing of Diego Jota obviously in the summer as well and how that potentially could still be affecting some of the players as well but he did say that he thought there'd be a change in fortunes in 2026 and how the recent games have been a little bit of a pre-season so potentially this win might kickstart some good things for Liverpool in the coming weeks but of course got Real Madrid in the Champions League this week Manchester City also getting a big win or should I say Erling Haaland FC should we just they should just change their name shouldn't they now the guy's got a 10-year contract he scores all the time he's getting I love the stat in Paul Hurst report nine different players in the Premier League of assisted Haaland this season I mean talking about styles Gregor this is the biggest shift ever Pep, pass it around, don't play a striker.

50:59Now, just get it forward to Erling, lads. It'll be fine. But I do think Pep's quote about the first goal when he's running through, I was watching it. Everyone's just like, well, this is a goal. Every single time. Was it that one or the second one where Cherki was just like, had his hands up? And he probably stole 50 yards from goal. He didn't celebrate him before he'd even got close to the goal. Doing the celebration. And of course, Pep Guardiola also making the claim that I wanted to ask you about. Talking about Erling Haaland and his comparison and with some of the greats that have played the game in talking about Cristiano Ronaldo and Lionel Messi.

51:30Pep said the numbers from Cristiano and Messi have been consistent for 15 years, scoring two, three goals every game. That is the level. Look at Erling Haaland. This is the same. Without him, it would be tough, to be honest. So is Pep right? Is Erling Haaland on the same level as Lionel Messi and Cristiano Ronaldo? Well, I think he answered his own thing there, really, in a way that it's the longevity, isn't it? I think if Haaland is 37 years old in, you know, whatever it is, 10 years time, and he's been hitting 30 goals plus every single season until that period, then I think we'll look back and say, yeah, he was probably one of the greatest, if not the greatest goal scorer of all time.

52:04I mean, you know, those kind of numbers in terms of a number nine, that's what Messi and Ronaldo have delivered. It's the longevity. I think the other thing always with these kind of arguments is people like artists, don't they, you know, in sport. It's why, you know, it's why in tennis people prefer Roger Federer to Novak Djokovic. It's why in cricket you'd rather watch Kevin Peterson than Alistair Cook, you know, Because ultimately people watch sport because they like those players who can deliver things that sort of come not from the training ground but come from where they're brought up, something inherent.

52:36You don't think Haaland's got that? I think Haaland is more of a Novak Djokovic. He's a machine and he's got athleticism and power and everything he does is absolutely... Drink raw milk. Drink raw milk, yeah. Like massive sticks. Everything he does is incredible, there's no doubt about that. But I don't think he's ever going to create that feeling of kind of wonder and awe that I think you would have when you watch Messi and also Ronaldo, to be honest, you know? Yeah, your eyes widen sometimes, but it's with a different sensation. It's like, oh my God, look at the power of this man, like when he's running through and look at him eating up the turf and like just brushing people off like they're children.

53:10It's not the same as watching. So like in cold, hard numbers, yes, he may well come to see as up there with those two players, but he will never be up there with those two players. Alison, you're a fan of artistry. Would you agree with Tom's point there about the kind of differing tennis sportsman that you see? Yeah, no, absolutely. People love Messi for more than his goals. Messi could not score in a game and you'd still come away thinking, I'm privileged to have watched that. If Erling Haaland has four touches and doesn't score, you don't come away feeling the least bit privileged. Do you think Haaland's got that in him to score the kind of goal?

53:43I'm thinking of like a great goal scorer who's maybe, you know, Rude van Nistelrooy, for example, scored loads of goals and always makes a joke himself about that goal at Fulham. He was like, that's the one goal I ever scored like that. Whereas players like Messi score that all the time you don't think Haaland's got that in him where even using that physicality where he could kind of barge his way through from deep and then smack it in from 20 yards yeah but the team's never been structured for that I mean although it has changed this season I mean the goals were really interesting and the Cherokee's picked up a little pocket and you know helped the ball on basically pass pass and he's in and only some some oppositions will some opponents will give them that opportunity but it is interesting that they're basically the focus of their approach now is about getting Allend in more of those transitional situations.

54:28And it's worked. He scored 13 of the 20 goals. 50 title contenders? I think so. I was at the game against Villa and I was impressed by them actually in that match. Even though they lost, they looked smooth. They looked like they're kind of ticking again. I think Niko makes a big difference in centre-infield. They didn't have him against Villa. Him coming in there, I think Pep is teaching him to be a defensive midfielder. Because when he arrived, a lot of people said, yeah, he's good on the ball, but he doesn't look over his shoulder much. you know and I think he's I mean Roger's going to come back at some point we assume but I think he's a really important add in there he has looked better those moments of composure like on the edge of his own box as opposed to like just I don't know helping it on or playing a pass he kind of will spin and pick out a really incisive forward pass those moments of composure are really important particularly when you're trying to get set Hallen free so he's been really good yeah and there have been a few things I think Nico O 'Reilly is like looking really impressive too I know he got his England call up and he could work his way in there he'd need to work a bit more as a fullback you need to work a bit more on his defensive I wish you were in midfield mate well they're all midfielders now there's no real fullbacks I never shut up about that but he's good he got the ball at the weekend and he had Haaland on his outside and he turned down the pass and used him as a dummy to create a space for a goal he's a good player Well, there'll be nothing making Arsenal fans more twitchy than the idea of a Pep Guardiola-Manchester City team on the charge.

55:56But it was another win for the league leaders. They've won nine consecutive games in all competitions, their longest run since October 2018. 11 wins in a row under Unai Emery. Honestly, I couldn't believe that stat when you think about how Unai Emery is viewed at Arsenal. They also kept a clean sheet in seven consecutive matches in all competitions for the first time since between March and April 1999, which was also a run of seven in the club's history. only between April and October 1903 have they kept more successive clean sheets in all competitions, which was eight, which is remarkable to think that that's very potentially doable with a trip to Slavia Prague in the Champions League this week, a competition in which they've only got three wins.

56:33So I kind of just wanted to broaden it out with Arsenal as a final question. It's an amazing run they're on. It's amazing form they're in. Just so resolutely winning every game. Can they keep it going across all formats? Because they've had a great start in the Champions League through in the Carabao Cup last week as well. have they got it in them with this squad that we've talked about and this depth to keep this going? I think they can, I think they've got the depth to do it I just think the Premier League title race emotionally I think will take so much of their bandwidth this season that I imagine that come April, May they won't be rotating in the Premier League to do the business in the FA Cup or even the Champions League to be honest You know, I think the amount of kind of expectation and pressure there will be on Arsenal to get over the line in the Premier League, I think they will just inevitably focus on that.

57:24And you look at the teams who do well in kind of multiple competition, particularly in the Champions League over the years. It's often teams who have either had experience of winning their own league title before. So there isn't quite that same pressure or, you know, they win the title by a distance. and I think the problem that you have in the Champions League right now is it very possible that in the other European leagues for example Bayern could have won it by December PSG similar Real Madrid possible you know so some of the really big giants in the Champions League may be having a sort of almost like a free run from sort of April onwards whereas Arsenal even if they're 12 points ahead of City they're still going to be feeling the nerves aren't they I'm sure Arsenal fans will definitely agree with you on that I know a few who definitely agree guys what do we think can Arsenal have they got it the quality and the depth keep going in the Champions League and the league keep this relentlessness going set more records more amazing statistics?

58:11I mean football is a habit of surprising doesn't it? I think as much as the depth is there and I think particularly the depth is there in forward areas which is a change this season I still think if you lose Gabriel or Saliba which is possible even with the signing it's a drop off Pierre Nkapi I think is a really good player Mosquera has looked impressive but neither of them are the same they're not the same physical sort of presence like psychological sort of presence as well drivers of the team that's the only question mark for me but the way they are defensively like means they have a chance of doing it all yeah they have a chance because you know if you can see this that few number of goals then like of course you have yeah a chance of doing it all there you go Arsenal fans there's a note to end the podcast on I think I should just say as well Tom Ornott this is why I'm not quite apologising to you yet on the chaos theory we're recording this on Monday and Sunderland play tonight, a win for them would take them back second.

59:11Come on, Sunderland, you can do it. But we'll leave it there for now. Tom Allnut, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. Me and Gregor will be back with an EFL Extra show this week and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.