Is it panic stations for Arsenal and Spurs?

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1:28as West Ham win, Forest draw and Tottenham lose again. On today's show, we'll discuss some huge results this weekend, take a look at the equally intriguing title race in Scotland and hear about a revealing interview with Manchester United captain Bruno Fernandes. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the football correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is here with me as usual. Gregor, Johnny on a Monday. What a treat, eh? Absolutely. Just when you thought this season couldn't get any more chaotic. we've messed with the whole plan at my age you're just looking for new experiences game on a Monday, wow exactly, absolutely and what do you think of the Lincoln kit I've gone for today?

2:08bold, yeah this is the 21-22 third shirt basically I'm doing this partly to just keep Lincoln's joy going but also to wind Gregor up because I think you can tell you can tell from his facial expression which you can catch on YouTube that he thinks this is pretty naff, don't you? that's one word for it yeah yeah there you go so we're going to see if I've got enough kits in my collection to make it all the way through to the end of the season or at least until Martin Samuel rejoins the show because I think he will also find it pretty naff ah what you doing with it oh come on without making this all about Lincoln is that the names of like fans yes so this was this was like a third kit where I think if you put money in you had your name on the shirt or something so there's various names of fans we're just a community run club Johnny just one of the good guys as I've already said wealthy American investors.

2:54Look at Gregor, he's already turning, he's already started to turn Is that all the fans then on the show? Yes, very good, very good Anyway, I've already said in my intro what a huge weekend it was. Gregor I thought on Thursday I asked you and Tony and Hamza which games we were looking forward to and it transpired that there were some huge results so I wanted to start with that really because I can't quite work out which was the most significant result. You obviously had Arsenal losing at home to Bournemouth at 12.30 on Saturday. You had City following up on Sunday with a brilliant win against Chelsea, particularly in that second half.

3:28Roberto De Zerbe losing his first game as Tottenham manager at Sunderland. West Ham, let's not forget, we sometimes incline, Gregor, aren't we, to forget the big Friday night games on a Monday show, but 4-0 win against Wolves to climb out the bottom three. Johnny, what was the most significant result this weekend? Yeah, it was a great weekend, wasn't it? Look, I wasn't that surprised by Spurs losing at Sunderland and I'm not that surprised that Spurs plight so and Martin Simon's written a great column today about how you know it would be one of the biggest shocks since Leicester I've stopped being shocked by Spurs a long time ago so I'll shelve that look I think it has to be Arsenal Arsenal in terms of the result that was the result that that properly throws the the race open that puts it back in City's hands but you know to get into a bit of nuance I thought the most important performance was City's the second half by City because I think City's ceiling the levels they can reach are just higher than Arsenal's I think we've seen that in the last couple of weeks I think we've known that all along and the question for me has always been who which City are Arsenal fighting against can City raise themselves to being not even vintage 99 points man city but just anything like one of their better versions of themselves and yeah i was at the liverpool game the week before in the cup when they demolished liverpool the second half arsenal couldn't do that yeah arsenal just don't have the levels um and and city are finding those levels so that was the significant biggest takeaway of the whole weekend was actually that second 45 minutes but the result at the emirates is what opens the door yeah well we're going to hear from some listeners today so jess who's a listener who got in touch would be delighted with your assessment johnny because she messaged saying tom i'm a long-time listener first time texter is it going to be a bottle job episode on monday um no jess it's not because we don't like that term do we gregor but no it is remarkable what's happening in april and it kind of links to what Johnny said about City and the strength they're showing it is as much about looking at Arsenal all of a sudden going wow where have they gone particularly with the goals they've conceded you know I was watching the goals they concede and thinking about everything you've said everything everyone has said about this Arsenal team the brilliance of their defence how organised they are and Bournemouth kind of they weren't even kind of cutting them to ribbons they just kind of trotted through and managed to find chances both times particularly with Scott's winner you know he just finds himself in space in the box to pass it into the goal yeah what any any rational explanation for what's going on with Arsenal they're defending both of them I would just say yeah to balance that off that's fair yeah the cross from true fear the first one was like lobbed over took a deflection didn't it to the back post uh another one was like a slightly mishit pass that I don't know who was maybe creepy tried to stretch a leg for and didn't quite get and then it rolled through for Scott but still you're right you're running through the center of their defence you don't associate that with Arsenal but the biggest thing is the atmosphere inside the Emirates I mean it's been spoken about a lot like over the course of the season and more so as the season's progressed just how how much harder it's making the whole job for the players there's no doubt about it and I'm not saying that's anyone's fault it's just the natural state of affairs at the moment Arsenal are in this frenzied sort of panicked like balance sort of marriage between sort of these expectations and what they're seeing in front of them like they're just not matching up but I think I think the team's got to give the fans something there don't they I mean imagine watching a team going for the title that are playing with so little courage as they are as they have been recently you know who the goalkeeper touches the ball more than anyone else except Declan Rice in a game they keep passing the ball back no wonder they're no wonder they're anxious yeah and Cass wrote a really good piece this morning as well in the in the game pull out and it was and he also sort of made the point that Arsenal seem to take more risks in their own defence of third than they do in the final third win from the ball it's this very sort of bizarre situation which links to Johnny's point which as fans you're going you want to see wingers running at defences you want to see you know people taking shots maybe you know it sounds really simplistic but it's just like it's all coming to a head now everything that's been spoken about that sort of the atmosphere of the Emirates this reliance on set plays and now it's sort of fallen that's that's not really clicking in the same way it just it sort of crystallized how much they're struggling to create chances from open play 0.18 xg from open play in this game and there's a great line and a piece by Adam Bate um on the Sky Sports website which is you know get some interesting sort of little stats on that piece on a Monday it's good and he was saying of the top six teams in the Premier League table they've had more matches this season with an open play expected goals total of 0.3 or lower than Man City, Man United, Liverpool and Chelsea combined and this is very unusual every season the eventual Premier League winners are either top or second for chances created from open play and Arsenal are sixth But it can't just be psychological, can it, in terms of the fans and the perception and the panic and the worry?

9:02Because they were creating chances, they had some big scoring matches earlier in the season, and they were not conceding goals. So is it that they play quite a simplistic way and opposition have worked out how to do it by April, that every season Arteta has good plans and a good pre-season, that by this stage everyone's worked them out? Yeah, I mean, it's structural as much as psychological, because yeah they've had look earlier in the season there were times when it clicked I was at Leeds actually when they won 4-0, 5-0 came away thinking well they'll win the title now because yeah well I think everyone did after that was another moment yeah but they do open out they've got so much talent on the pitch backed by you know good solid players behind them but they've retreated since then but they even early in the season there were other games when they were just trying to get by you know hang in get a set piece managed possession horseshoe football you know our old friend Matt Tench would say you know it's just endless circulation of possession just to manage the game I think over at this point in the season opponents change a little bit everyone's in the second half of the season playing for something maybe they're a bit bolder themselves at times, maybe they've worked you out it's their second time playing against you there's the stat I don't have it to hand but Arsenal's record under Arteta in April is appalling yeah I think they've won one game or something won one game in the sporting Lisbon all these years so this happens year after year there's questions about how that squad is managed from a physical point of view why are they why are they tanking at this point of the season why is this slump at this time um is it just fixtures I mean they've got they invested in you know extra bodies in their squad and back in September we were saying no one's ever had a bigger better squad blah blah blah so I don't I don't it's personnel it players getting injured players playing with injuries it would appear um there's got you got to look at the physical side of it as well and then on the flip side there was that start about about Manchester City in April or Manchester City sort of in the last 10 games of um of Premier League seasons and they've only lost one of the last 43 games if you're looking at from in the last 10 games of a season so Guardiola is expert at managing his squad psychologically and physically to peak at this point in the year and that seems to be a trick that Arteta still hasn't mastered yeah and then coming back to the big game which is now a huge game next weekend it always was a big game but now have we kind of got a scenario where there was this match at the Etihad kind of at a similar time maybe three or four seasons ago I think it was maybe the season where Arsenal had surprised everyone but I remember watching that game thinking there's just no way Arsenal are going to win this game.

11:53No I think it was the one where City won quite convincingly and it was like the kind of definitive moment. You're watching this game aren't you Johnny and particularly that second half against Chelsea you're just going whoa god they could score from anywhere on the pitch. Obviously we've talked so much about Nico O 'Reilly popping up in the box all the time but Cherky getting his 10th assist of the season you know they were doing this without Semenyo and Haaland getting on the score sheet and they looked pretty comfortable City. They did and I mean you know the week before they scored their four goals against Liverpool in a 15 minute 16 20 minute spell or whatever and then they just kind of it's almost out of kindness they sat off but in that game you kind of thought this could be seven or eight if they wanted to be and this all started from the Carabao Cup final and the second half of that match where um it certainly just seemed to go to another put another gear and arsenal had nothing to answer with and the way they kind of managed arsenal tactically which other teams now are starting to do you know you're so born with using the city template of just just leave raya with the ball just leave the center back see what they're going to do um and concentrate and jumping on zubomendi who who you know was in crisis on on saturday so So City started this whole, like this started in that Carabao Cup final, I feel, City going to another level and Arsenal, you know, just being knocked and to a point where they're still reeling from it.

13:19I mean, I'm at the point now where I'm going, well, City are now favourites again. We've seesawed so many times and we're not the only ones as well, we should say, I don't think. But I mean, are City both your favourites for the title now? Six points is still a lot. They've got a game in hand and they've got to play Arsenal. They host them next weekend. You know, where are we at? just for the next point in the discussion going forward are Arsenal still your favourites Gregor? do they still have it because they're six points clear? I'm torn but I kind of I mean at this point in time like Arsenal need to reverse something pretty pretty quickly but City would still need to be pretty flawless and I'm still not despite because we had this conversation before we came on here we've seen City we've said our City back probably three times this season and they haven't been or they've fallen away they've shown they've demonstrated their flaws does it feel different this time that's the question and yeah it does a little bit probably because Gahy's here now because Kusunov has stepped up to look like an absolute warrior yeah he looks amazing an incredible athlete suddenly you look at their defence and think it's not quite as vulnerable as it was Rodri's back Cherki's like this little magician Semenyo's been an incredible sign in so there are a lot of big positives now that you think yeah they've got the momentum I'm still not 100 % sold though so I'd say Arsenal still have to be favourites yeah as good as they were in the second half they weren't very good in the first half so I was watching this game against Chelsea thinking oh this could be a draw Chelsea could even win this you know this is a sign of what Greg has been talking about this is not the city of old but then they deliver then they deliver and as Johnny just said even if it's 20 minutes they might just kill you for 20 minutes but that might be enough so this game next weekend might be bitty it might be nervy but then bang Turkey will do something Haaland will do something and it's also that thing where you look at City I think and you look at players who are going to make something happen who are going to do something even Doku you know in that first half against Chelsea running at the defence you're like you're going to make something happen and you're looking at Arsenal increasingly and going they're very tired you know players who might make something happened.

15:32Declan Rice has already played an obscene amount of games. You're looking at players and going, who's going to make something happen? You know, Bakayo Saka's out of form. Who's going to stand up for our Odegaard's been injured? Who's going to deliver something suddenly at the Etihad next weekend? I don't know. But if it's nil-nil with 60 minutes left, I know who, I can name about five players who are going to do it for City. I don't know if I can name any for Arsenal who I think they'll get the goal that wins them the title. No, I mean, it's got the point where, you know, Max Downwind coming on it's a big hope you know it's like oh the kid's on but they've got a big big game against Sport and Lisbon that's another draining sort of thing for them where City have got the week off I thought even Kovacic coming back in I was like oh my goodness I forgot about Kovacic Rinders isn't even getting on the pitch at the moment Rinders is a goal scorer a good player I don't know I mean the O 'Reilly injury might might be significant he's been important to them but again And Ait Nuri's not bad.

16:33I mean, in terms of investment, I know what Arteta would say, which is that, yes, I've spent a billion or whatever, but he spent 1.2 billion and he's got even more players. He has, and they have spent a lot of money. All of that is true. So there's a miracle of Pep, yes, but there's a very un-miracle of spending lots of money. Yeah, we're seeing that in action. I just, I win a bit like Gregor in terms of saying Arsenal are no longer favourites. They have the points on the board. They have the points on the board. But if you ask me to put money on it, I wouldn't put City now. Put it this way, Arsenal playing like they did, have got to jump in performance to such a...

17:17I mean, forget the City game at the weekend. They're not going to beat anyone playing like that. So something has got to... Fundamental has got to change, yeah. Just very quickly, even with points on the board though, if you guess predicting the result next weekend, Gregor, which obviously even a City win Arsenal would still be top three points the game in hand but how do Arsenal approach this game do they go for oh we're the ugly team who you know goes for corners and scrap it out do they go for that do they go for a nil-nil yeah embrace it do they go for you know you're going to have to get you know Gabriel and Saliba doing your favourite thing of celebrating tackles every 20 minutes and chest bumps and all that kind of stuff is that how they go for it yeah is that their only option when you're low on confidence and you can't you know you can't nick a win it's I don't think you survive though I think Arsenal could have survived a couple of months ago but I just don't think they're in the state at the moment to survive at the Etihad if they shut up short I don't think they've got the kind of confidence to go toe to toe with them either even if they then beat Sporting get into a Champions League semi-final going into that game good performance at home again we talk about atmosphere maybe crowd gets behind them win a tricky game against sporting Champions League semi-final six I mean it's crazy isn't it it's crazy to think that on Thursday's show Gregor we might be talking about this game again and being like oh this is a big game for Arsenal but they're going to be six points clear in April in a Champions League semi-final and we're going oh god I wouldn't want to be an Arsenal fan there's also the point that a point would be good for them so you've got to think about the context of the title race too it's not they don't need to win it City need to win it so that in itself might open up some opportunities for Arsenal if they play fairly conservatively and try and spring but I also think from the point of view of where they are as a club at the moment that's their best chance of getting something from the game You don't think any of the attacking players I mentioned a couple of them Victor Jokeres has now got 18 goals in all competitions this season players to make their debut in a Premier League era for Arsenal only Henri with 26 in 99 2000 and Alexis Sanchez have got more.

19:27But I mean, you know, is it still... How many of them have been really important? I don't know. Without kicking Jokic. He's competent, right? He's a competent player, but he's not a top player. But then what about the rest? You know, is it about managing Havertz and getting him back in? You know, Eze being back helps him. That's part of the problem, though. It's like early in the season, you thought there's people waiting in the wings. Like Trossard was making a case to start and play and he did for a large part of the season. He was really decisive in a lot of games. Martinelli was coming on and impacting.

20:03Madueke started the season brilliantly. And you think, Crikey's pushing Saka. Now none of them are really firing. From having loads of options, they're scrambling around to think, what's our best option? And that's just the timing of it is awful. Timber's been a massive miss, hasn't it? But the best player in the last few weeks has been their goalkeeper. And that shouldn't be the case for a team trying to win a title. So just quickly on the other teams involved in these games, we've talked a lot about Arsenal City, understandably, but I wanted to briefly talk about Chelsea. As good as that City second half was, very worrying for Liam Rossini and Chelsea fans.

20:38I mean, even in the first half, they were trying, they were in the game, but not massively. Chelsea have lost five of their last six games in all competitions, their only win coming against Port Vale, their most defeats in a shorter spell since May 2023 under Frank Lampard. I mean what do we feel about Chelsea going forward I mean that's that's part of it I was thinking about this you know as a Chelsea fan what would you be thinking about the future of your club and that's where a lot of the conversations around players like Enzo Fernandez and even Cole Palmer and Moses Caicedo comes what are they thinking when you know this guy Liam Rossini who's like nice guy enthusiastic I like his demeanor on the touchline good vibes you know engaging in press conferences but it never feels like a this is the future this is the vision this is the charge and then you have performances like this which just look really messy really messy you've got Santos in the box desperately trying to mark Nico O 'Reilly who's just like get off like several times as well balls in the box and he's in there not the most commanding of defenders I wouldn't want him anywhere near a ball coming in the box you know what is Chelsea where are they going and I think the players are asking that question as well I think that's why people like Fernandes and Cucurella are talking the way they are they've had two or three opportunities in the last, well the Blueco era to go to that next stage and every time they're incapable of it partly because of the way the owners keep trading and then they have to start again or changing the managers and they have to start again and maybe partly because a lot of the players they've got a lot of players but how many are really, really, really good and the concerning thing was that was a game at Stamford Bridge you know and and at the bridge it's it's one of those stadiums that's got such energy you've got such an opportunity as a home team to you know bring intensity to it and put the opposition under pressure and and they played like the away team you know they were trying to manage city and they've managed city quite well in the first half but a lot of the time it was you know with with five or six back and and just trying to uh stifle the game and and you think well and that's what you're doing at home you know at year four of yeah project um it wasn't really an out ball was there you expect that's fine but if you then have palmer and estival and gel pedro charging forward and you're like oh god this is a clever game plan but there was none of that no couldn't seem to get hold of the ball estival barely got the ball for a one-on-one gel pedro was trying to defend him playing both boxes because he was defending a lot cole palmer looked like a soloist you know sort of and not in a good way because sometimes that's what we love about him but he almost looks disconnected from the team at the moment there was a point where Bernardo Silva just took the ball off Pedro Neto and maybe it was a Portuguese thing but he just gave him a a look and said something like you know just remember you know where you are in the pegging order or something like that yeah yeah you know you're looking at Moise Corsedo's regressed a little bit this season and I think he's one of the best players in the league but not at the moment and then the defence it's roulette isn't it which centre backs are going to play and what kind of defending are they going to come with so do we think there's a scenario in which obviously Enzo Fernandes has been spoken about by him and by the manager as well are we in a scenario where Chelsea have built this big squad of billion pounds and got some star players in and the star players are now going I don't actually believe in this anymore I'm off in the summer yeah look again Martin wrote about this recently like sort of feeling that it's maybe starting to unravel a little bit just the first sort of threads of that being pulled um i think that's true on several levels i think it's true in terms of some of the players some some important players for chelsea will start to look around and think is this you know am i going to spend my career here when i could be fighting for silver wear which is what footballers and managers want to do as opposed to just sort of a collection of assets and then I think there's a kind of bigger question about Chelsea's finances as well and like the fact that they've had to sell the women's team, sell the hotel and so much creative accountancy to facilitate all of this and like that can't go on forever so at some point they probably are going to have to do some trading that's maybe not on their terms and then you know they're already not kind of reached the same that reached a level that they would have hoped that they they should have after spending that this amount of money um and they might have to go backwards you know when players especially senior players kind of start to want to leave perhaps what what does that what does that do to addressing them well um i mean do people notice it is it something that like others chat about or do you sense it or something i mean to be honest johnny i've never been at a project like chelsea I don't think there's been a project like Chelsea before you can even call them senior players they're just the players who are kind of the most talented players the biggest assets the most expensive as well in case for a lot of them yeah but are they actually assets that they're going to see a return on?

25:52I don't think so they would never see a return on Enzo Fernandes they'd never see a return on Moises Caicedo who would they see? despite them being good players because they have been they performed really well for Chelsea at times I mean I think Caicedo has looked like a hundred million just because the market for number sixes but Cole Palme would make a profit on if you wanted to but you wouldn't want to yeah yeah look on that question though there's no escaping a sense of unease like players going away and sort of undermining the project on international duty like would make that even clearer but I think you'll be able to conversations in the changing would would demonstrate that.

26:34Like everyone would, you know, there've been periods where there's not been enough space in the changing rooms and it's like, although you're part of this and once you want, you know, you might want to join Chelsea and you're a young player coming from Europe or South America and this is a great opportunity. Once you're there, the reality of it is like, what is this? It's one thing I always notice about Guardiola. Whenever a player intimates he might want to look elsewhere than City, he just go then. His attitude's very much off you go did it with Alvarez didn't he he did it with brilliantly yeah yeah yeah I mean he's just not he just doesn't want to have it and he'll say in a press conference they don't have to be here Chelsea then in six at the minute four points behind Liverpool who got a big win at home to Fulham this weekend is that about where they are then this Chelsea team do we see them breaking into the top five of the Champions League obviously Manchester United playing against Leeds tonight in third Villa in fourth stuttering form but still there six points clear of Chelsea you know because that's another factor for Chelsea isn't it with the finances and everything he's suddenly not in the Champions League and for the players as well Enzo Fernandes Cole Palmer Caicedo they want to be in the Champions League are they going to make it?

27:42It's a difficult one for them if they're in the Europa I don't think they are the Villa dropping points again although or was that a reasonable result I don't know but there's a bit of bit of hope for them Liverpool are still we just don't quite know what we're getting all the time from Liverpool but it does look like there's a gap it seemed like a good weekend for Manchester United it gives them a bit of a free hit against Leeds the only thing for Chelsea is they play Man United next and then have got Liverpool in their third last game as well so like those head to head clashes they've got the chance give them an opportunity would you if you were guessing at the moment I wouldn't I wouldn't put money on but then again you know Liverpool got a win but you wouldn't put money on them either and time now for every podcast host favourite line when it's been a big weekend and the league leaders have lost a quick word for Bournemouth a brilliant result for Andoni Iraiola.

28:32He's done it again. You just look at this team again at this stage in the season. You talk about players dropping off. Bournemouth, we've just seen this rise, you know, to the top of some of these brilliant players. Kruppi scoring again. Scott in midfield. You know, Trufer, Greg, you've mentioned a few times. They've just produced all these amazing players again. And, you know, Bournemouth fans are going to hate me for this because not only am I being slightly patronising by only just bringing in a bit of praise at the end, but you then start thinking, are they going to be able to keep hold of any of them?

28:58I mean, Kruppi looks like such a talent for a teenager. He's already scored a bag full of goals. I mean, but there's so much to like. Just very quickly, Johnny, you're going to be covering England at the World Cup. Scott, any chance of making the squad? He should have a chance. He definitely should have a chance. He was part of the November camp and didn't really make an impression, but he's a good, good player. Versatile. Done it for the under-21s, which is always a plus in England terms. For whatever reason, he didn't make the last squad and I think Garner's ahead of him. But yeah, I like him a lot.

29:30Proper all action, box to box. He's a bit of a throwback. Got a hairband as well, I always like a hairband. That's not a throwback. She's not sure about the hair. Don't mind her hair, it's her preferences. But you know, he's been outstanding this season, really taken, after the 21 tournament, really taken a big stride forward. They've always known, speaking to people at Bournemouth, they've felt like he, out of all the players that they've signed and sold for like big profit into clubs like Real Madrid. They're the one, he's the one that they had the most hope for. He's the one that they feel has the highest ceiling.

30:09And I think he's starting to show that really. So, and then leading back to my just very cheeky question, again, we're talking about what are Chelsea, you know, for a Bournemouth fan, Iriola, the question is going to come up again this summer. We expect lots of managerial movement. Does he stay with these players, with Scott and these players, if he can keep Kruppi and Ryan, do they keep it going? Do they keep brilliant Bournemouth going? How can they do that? Can they keep him? It's tough and he's out of contact, isn't he? I'd love to see him at a top club and I understand for Bournemouth fans that wouldn't be what you want to hear.

30:40It sounds patronising. It's not. I just think he's a Champions League manager. He's an absolutely top manager. And I'm surprised that in all, let's say, Spurs, many managerial searches this season they haven't gone from already. But I think he could manage anyone. I think he's quite, you know, you've interviewed him, Johnny. He's a bit different too. I don't think he would take the Tottenham job. No. I think he's quite specific about his steps in his career. And he recognised something at Bournemouth that would give him a good platform in the Premier League. What his next move is, I think if the right opportunity were to arise, probably, the ambition inside him would mean he would take it.

31:20But if it's not there, I wouldn't rule it out. I'm staying. if that next step that he feels is a good next step is not there then he might stay Yeah maybe charging towards that Europa League place Bournemouth currently in 10th at the minute but not out of the question just three points behind Chelsea in six and you've got Brentford and Everton between them they played out a draw this weekend and Brighton in ninth they got a victory against Burnley but let's go to the bottom of the table then Johnny you said you weren't surprised by Tottenham losing in Roberto de Zerbi's first game I must confess maybe I'm naive I was I was trying to trying to reassure some of our Tottenham supporting colleagues on the Times Sports Desk, you know, got a good manager now.

31:58You know, Sunderland, tailed off a little bit, got a good win against Newcastle, of course, but I think there's a chance here and it just never looked like happening. That's the worry for Tottenham, isn't it now? No, it was a very flat performance. They've got an amazing manager. They've got a manager that other coaches will tell you is a genius. You know, he's one of the sort of coaching talents of the generation. but he's also got a very different style of play to the last two guys so you're asking a team in the middle of a relegation battle to either change their style or be able to change their style in a short window of time and it's a style based around taking risks on the ball which is difficult to do when you're in this position or you're asking the manager to, you know the reasons that you brought him in you're actually setting them aside and asking them to be a different type of manager so i was and the deserve be history is it takes a while for that style of play to get embedded so i didn't expect it to work straight away but but beyond that this is just a team that for after the first 10 12 games of ang has been a bottom bottom 16 they've got really good players that are conundrum you look at them on the pitch and you go why are you so bad but this has been going on a long long time yeah in terms just quickly Greg I'm well I'm both of you I wanted to ask about vibes because we talk so much about vibes with Igor Tudor of course and that disastrous short-lived spell Alison Rudd was there at Roberto De Zerbi's first press conference on Friday wrote about it for the Times website you know I found it a fascinating read because I was like there's not I don't know what you could say in this scenario because he had the great line where he's like I'm focused on taking Tottenham Hotspur back to the and just before he said it he went no no but not I know there's relegation first and we're going to stop that but I want to take us back to the top and it's like that's the line you always say if you're not coming in in the middle of April when you're actually about to drop into the relegation zone so you have to say that and then he starts talking I want us to play like Ange you know he's in an impossible position in terms of vibes and confidence isn't he Gregor in terms of how he tries to lift these players yeah and I think it only took 90 minutes for him to realize that because his his whole kind of demeanor after of the game was this group of players don't need a coach they need a father figure they need like you know they need someone to to sort out their mentality and that's my task now between you know between now and the end of the season is to make sure they're in the right frame of mind because I see a much freer team I see our quality in training and you know he had a good spell of training I know he's only just arrived but he had a good run up to this game I see it and then when the games arrive they're not the same players so that's about mentality and that's his biggest task and so then all the things that Johnny says just raised there are true but they're kind of an irrelevance just now if that's his main challenge is can he can he give the players the confidence to get close to playing how they can One thing I like I mean he had that front three which might just give them that might just change the emphasis you know he had Richarlison Kolo Moani and Solanke and that's that's properly saying the players right our strength is at the top of the pitch come on so that might just shift the dial a little bit that seems the best chance of getting out of it it's a big shift though isn't it particularly when you consider some of these stats Tottenham have now failed to win any of their last 14 Premier League matches drawn 5 lost 9 which is now their outright second longest run without a league victory in their history only behind a run of 16 between December 1934 and April 1935 also this season in terms of the position they're in Tottenham remain one of two teams in the Premier League this season who have failed to win a match after going behind the other is Wolves Spurls have gone behind in 23 different matches going on to lose 16 and drawing the others once which when you need points and you just says if you go 1-0 down there's no way back Well look there's been so much talk about you know kind of airily about no I think I'm sure Tottenham will pull away from it this is the weekend when it became like it crystallised the reality of the position they're in we've spoken about this all season with Martin and he's saying West Ham despite their upturn, you can't get out the bottom three, they're still there it's taken that step as big they just took it, Tottenham took the step backwards now everyone, whatever you thought beforehand, can see the seriousness of the situation Which is as much about West Ham's upturn in Undone and Uno Espirito Santo a 4-0 win on Friday night a huge, huge victory they've won five of their last 11 Premier League matches since the first game in this run against Spurs on the 17th of January only Man Utd and Arsenal have got more points in that time than West Ham and they've even got players like Mavropanos I've got a friend of mine who you know is a West Ham fan I'm delighted in quoting him on this after the match on Friday and he's like yes Mavro top lad and I dug back in our chat and found a point when he called him one of the worst centre-backs to have ever played for West Ham I mean you could go back and to our archive too and I've said that a number of times I feel a bit guilty actually because I've said on numerous occasions he's not good enough in the Premier League and I don't know it just looks like he's another player who's benefited from Nuno's sort of clear structure and just like you know defend the box do what you're good at don't ask him to do things you're not good at defend the box but he's also scoring goals he had one goal in 81 games for Arsenal and West Ham combined he's got three in his last three so that is a team in complete contrast to Tottenham that's a team that is just delivering and he's got belief and players you know he does yeah you can see it in action I mean I thought that I think I might have said it on here I thought the January window was rubbish for them yeah Castellanos who's he you know looked at his record not very good Pablo his record's even worse you know what have they done and what do I know because they've been especially Castellanos has just brought something hasn't he at the top of the pitch Bowen's being Bowen you know Fernandes is full of energy I think De Sasse's been really good for them.

38:04Great character to have, you know. And then, yeah, Mafra Panis probably still isn't very good, but he's had a golden month at the right time. Yeah, he's delivering. I mean, good point for Forrest, John, you mentioned it earlier against Aston Villa. Unbeaten in four now for them. We're looking at the bottom three then and going, it's my usual time to ask for impossible predictions, but Leeds still to play tonight, obviously against Manchester United. but Gregor you've said it a couple of times that you think Tottenham are doomed for want of a better word but are you looking at this and going it's this bottom three now I mean I thought it was Tottenham as long as Igor Tudor was in charge and then De Zerbe created an unknown and look it's one game I still think it's likely that you'll see an uptick from them, now actually everything I just said about realising the seriousness of the situation, like the players will do that too it's there for them they're going down if they don't change something very quickly so I think there will be an uptick but it's also Leeds need to get points soon because their final they've got to play Spurs and West Ham in their last three games and they've also got the FA Cup semi-final they need to get points on the board soon Leeds have looked like a good team for most of the season and I'd be surprised if they do get dragged into but they need to get it done now so it's not it's by no means done and dusted and don't try and ask me to call it it's hard because they're so tight and all of those teams need two wins it's just like that'll get them more or less the 40 points so you can make a case for any of them picking up those two wins coming back to West Ham then do we now now they've got out of it and as you said Greg Martin Samuel's been so often as a lot of West Ham fans have been doing you know we're still down there it doesn't matter if we look a bit better it doesn't matter if we've been okay in the cup or whatever but now they're out do they seem the most upwardly mobile of those teams or are the Forest as well?

40:00Are we saying it may be between Leeds and Tottenham? Obviously this is before Leeds go and hammer Manchester United tonight while we're recording this on Monday morning. West Ham work in the best shape. Forest haven't won at home since December. Like, they're still... The European sort of... Distraction, yeah. Yeah, it's given them a bit of... Put a different sort of sheen on their season. It's not been great for a long time in the Premier League. and if they go through it's going to continue in Europe so that's another strain on them West Ham are definitely in the best shape and although their running actually is kind of judging by Opta's metrics the most difficult Palace, Everton, Brentford Arsenal, Newcastle, Leeds if you look to that a while back that looks really challenging I still think they can get enough points from that so yeah West Ham are in the best shape well if you're a fan of any of the teams down the bottom and you want to raise a point or give us a prediction between now and the end of the season do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk just two final very quick points from the games this weekend I'm mentioning a good point for Forrest a frustrating point for Aston Villa and a frustrating figure is what Morgan Rogers looks like increasingly this season Johnny Gary Jacob writing a story on the Times website at the end of last week about him potentially thinking about moving on from Villa obviously clubs would definitely be circling for him.

41:21Just very quickly, could you see him leaving? And if so, where would you see him fitting best in one of my many impossible questions on today's show? I could see him leaving. I mean, he is a talent and he's a great age profile, isn't he? All of that stuff. Where would he play? I mean, I know United are one of the... United, though, and we're going to speak about Bruno Fernandes. I mean, they've got talent in that area. but he could play Morgan Rodgers across different positions but he could go to any of them, I think he is good enough he hasn't been good enough in the last probably all season though I don't think he's been his best version of himself maybe, I was in Belgrade when he had that great performance for England against Serbia but he hasn't done that enough for Aston Villa I think the question for him is he's reached the top as a player and had to take a circuitous route.

42:21But it's a bit like Cole Palmer. Can you stay there? And that's what separates the real best from the other ones. When you get the adulation, you get a different status, can you cope with that and still push yourself on? And until you see a player do it and stay at the top, you're not quite sure. And that's where he is at the moment. I think he's has found himself England's number 10 keeping Bellingham out of the team Aston Villa's main man and has had a season where he hasn't always done the things that got him there sometimes shoots when he should just play it simple sometimes try to do too much so that's what I see at the moment and until yeah he could go and play anywhere but the job will be to get back to what he was or remember what he was but he's a very bright lad good lad I mean no worries about his character just can you stay there yeah big summer for Morgan Rogers and Aston Villa another quick question just from the final game that we've not mentioned a win for Crystal Palace against Newcastle more worries for Newcastle and Eddie Howe I've asked this question a couple of times and it can just be a snap answer Newcastle mad to get rid of Eddie Howe yes or no yes yes yeah mad for Eddie Howe to think maybe I'll walk away flip it on its head and maybe go not sack him but part company and just go this has been a great project let's leave now reputation's intact step aside managerial changes are plenty coming everyone just has a swap club shouldn't they that that'd be fun i think you'll want to know about the sort of direction of the project because it does feel like it's stuttered and stalled a bit and there's been perhaps not the alignment you would have hoped with kind of the people above him making decisions about transfers and and supporting him basically on all the fronts we said at the start of the season once he has happened before once you get in the Champions League you just have a whole different strain on your squad and your resources and Newcastle struggle to cope with that and actually the players they added haven't really improved the squad they improved the team certainly the starting team so if you look at this game and you've got you start in Willisula and you've got Wultamada Alanga and Wissa on the bench that's your three players who signed I don't know what was that maybe the best part of 200 million all told and I think that says quite a lot about Newcastle season yeah a very quick bit of analysis on a big topic that I'm sure it's been a bumper first half of Monday's show it's time for a little break there's loads more still to come including a chat about Bruno Fernandes little quiz question just to get us through to the half time break Tarek Mitchell made his 200th Premier League appearance for Crystal Palace at the weekend becoming just the fifth player in the club's history to hit that tally in the competition Can Gregor and Johnny name the other four?

45:10Find out after the break.

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47:05Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson with me. And I'm delighted to say the combined Scottish geniuses did manage to get the four other players who've played more than 200 times in the Premier League for Crystal Palace. They were Joel Ward, 306, Wilfred Zaha, 291, James MacArthur, 240, and the tricky one, Geoffrey Schlupp 220 Johnny well done going in with Geoffrey Schlupp even beating the Crystal Palace fans on the Times editing desk even they didn't manage to get Geoffrey Schlupp now I mentioned in the first half of the show hearing from Jess a listener it's time to mention Cammy Graham who got in touch Gregor after one of our EFL extra shows now I like to think they go down quite well you know with the listeners talking about you know the people out there football league Cammy was not happy he said lads this is the most exciting Scottish football season in decades and you can't even spare five minutes on the show.

47:59And to be fair, he's got a point. So now we're going to do just that. At least five minutes, maybe six, maybe seven. We'll see how long producer Neil allows us through the glass. But he's right. He is quite right, isn't he, chaps? Hearts currently leading the Scottish Premiership on 70 points. Rangers just behind on 69. Celtic with 67. It's been a remarkable, remarkable season. And this topic has come up on the Times editing floor plenty of times. So many of my colleagues have been like, can Hearts do it? Can they do it? but it's starting to look like they might be reeled in. They've produced some brilliant performances of late, despite going behind, clawing their way back into games.

48:35Our Scottish correspondent, Michael Grant, writing at the weekend, very boldly, Johnny, I've got to say, before Rangers actually played Falkirk, he's saying that he thought Danny Roll would take them to the title. They got a big win despite going 2-0 down in that game. How do you see it playing out before we get on to kind of the excitement, how great it is for the Scottish game in general? if you were making a call would you be with Michael that's saying that it's Rangers who are going to reel them in we've talked about it in England the team in second on the chase look I've had I'm slightly biased because I've interviewed Danny Roll and rate him really highly but I just had an inkling since he took over that he'd win the league this season simply because Celtic have been dysfunctional to the point where the fans have hated them for most of the season and they're not the Celtic of the last whatever years and just such a big ask for hearts to do it I'd love them to do it I'd also hate them to do it because I feel really jealous from an Aberdeen fan point of view that's where we should be they've even got our old manager but it's difficult and I've just Danny Roll's got a lot of energy about him intensity he goes for it he's he's from that kind of Klopp German school I think you're seeing that in action I mean they're they're not great defensively they went 2-0 down um but they've got lots of firepower scored 14 goals in the last three games I think nine different scorers in that time he's sort of activated Yusuf Chermity who's gone from being the worst siding in Rangers history to the guy that might fire them to the league they've got Bojan Waworski who is a great finisher scored two I just think we've been talking about momentum and how you approach run-ins and I just think they're more on the front foot than everyone else hearts are trying to you know and it's also Derek McInnes thing which is to try and you know he's canny but is canny going to win and I don't trust Celtic so I just think Rangers will get there well Hearts still top got a 3-1 win against Motherwell at the weekend but again fell behind and came back into this with two late goals we should just say details of the games as well the weekend the penalty that Hearts got was like borderline and then they still gone to the 87th minute before they got the before they took the leads now now don't be bringing jealousy Celtic no no no no no I mean the same Rangers Rangers were 2-0 down and the goal they got just before half time it was like did the ball go out in the cross there was a question mark and then even then like a looping header to the back post that like hit the post bounced back out and fell directly to the player to lash it in and it was it was Chukwani to lash it in and it was like there was a stroke of luck to that too but then everything Johnny says is true the fact that they have they look like the team with firepower Hearts I think that had like four 1-0s at home in a row or something before that like they really it's started to get really bitty for Hearts and Rangers have the best goal difference it could come down to goal difference we should say as well maybe I started this whole topic wrong it is an amazing achievement by Hearts that we're in this position isn't it that they're leading the Scottish Premiership at this stage in the season Johnny's the best person to speak about this because the last time this happened or this eventually happened was Aberdeen 41 years ago 41 years ago and when you say this happened just to be clear one of Rangers and Celtic not winning and you'd say the last time it happened in a way was 91 when Aberdeen went we lost to Rangers in the last day in the last game actually it was a head to head but that was the last time anyone took it to the even to the final day anywhere close to the final day Derek McInnes got close a couple of times with Aberdeen and then fell away right at the end of the season twice to Celtic and in fairness Hearts aren't doing that because there was a point roundabout in those Aberdeen seasons where anxiety took over and Aberdeen started to just tank a little bit, what you're seeing with Hearts at the moment is scoring late goals, still showing character, still winning Claudio Bragas, this kind of magic player who every time he scores a goal that's a kind of decisive goal so they've got that kind of player and there's the best chant in british football at the moment brilliant go on then brilliant well you have to say radio gaga yeah you looked at me very suspiciously then i was like oh god is it rude and we're not going to be

53:06you've got to say the format is like this is where the the the slightly odd format of the the scottish premiership comes to the fore because it just leaves you with the last five games that are just all yeah absolute humdingers which is that is massive isn't it with lots of conversations around Scottish football and the attention that it gets the money that it gets the funding that it gets but having this title race means that everyone is paying attention I mean I had a brilliant scenario when I was on paternity leave we were in the pub for a quick pint whilst my daughter was asleep it was Livingston against Hearts was on the telly and my wife often does that game where she tries to work out what the who the teams are based on the shortened version she's like live her who the hell is this I was like it's Livingston and Hearts in Scotland she's like were you watching scott i was like actually it's very exciting and let me tell you why i mean this is a big deal isn't it people are going to be paying attention this is good for the scottish game it's always a an incredible soap opera like my favorite piece of the entire calendar year on the times website is michael grant's review of the year because it's it's like i can say it is a soap opera he runs through everything that happened in the year and let's think back to Rangers not winning any of the first eight games Russell Martin at Falkirk yeah yeah having to be escorted from the stadium in a car because fans were waiting by the bus it was for his own safety and then leaving like the Brendan Rodgers exit yeah Wilfred Nancy I forgot about that yeah and like two returns for Martin O 'Neill two returns yeah the Dermot Desmond's like story in like club statement about Brendan Rogers like you'd never it's extraordinary but as you say there's never any real jeopardy it's only ever Celtic and Rangers duking it out and we'll also not mention a big reason why this happened is because Tony Bloom took a stake in the club the Brighton owner and his partnership with Jamestown Analytics which is the data company he's linked to has played a huge part he helped sign players like Claudio Braga so you know his name's sung inside Tynecastle now sometimes it's like he said he was bold too he said I think what did he say I want to win the title at least once in the next 10 years and he's only spent what net 2.5 million at the moment so he only just got started I mean appointing McInnes was another bit of genius I think if you look at who's been the best Scottish manager of the last I don't know 20 years outside of the old firm it's him you know but he's a money ball signing because he lost his way in a sense and going to Kilmarnock in the championship and come back up and he's another bit of Tony Bloom scouting but yeah I mean I think this is a bonus year for him and the really exciting thing about this story is you could see next year being similar Will Celtic and Rangers be quite as dysfunctional?

55:58That's the only thing No Under Danny Roll as you've said depending on where Celtic go yeah yeah that you know that that's why this is a kind of surprise year but nothing's a surprise for him either like he i reckon he would have looked at and thought celtic and rangers are in a bad way here like there's this is a an opportunity right for someone to disrupt the status quo in scotland and to take a big club in one of the best cities in you know i'm biased but one of the best cities in the world with like huge tourism and take them into europe even and i think that future like whatever happens is really exciting for Hearts Hearts will be better and if you look at what he's done with Union San Gawas which is now owned by by a friend of his Alex Muzio but they challenged challenged challenged lost out lost the league a couple of times agonisingly but kept going kept building and now they're serial champions there you go Traps you've convinced me Cammy you've convinced me as well we should make sure we make some time to talk about the Scottish title race between now and the and we'll continue to do so and we absolutely will so do get in touch with me with your thoughts Scottish football fans he's great Cammy though we left it late Tom absolutely better late than never and we'll do keep doing it between now and the end of the season let's finish with a chat about a brilliant interview on the Times website this weekend by Johnny Northcroft it was headlined compassionate competitive Polish league obsessive meet the real Bruno Fernandes Johnny you did just that tell us what it was like yeah fascinating I mean the whole thing was great went over to Dublin to Carton House which I think Paul Hurst was out there as well and Harry Maguire but even just the seen it manchester united's sort of popularity in ireland and around the world's unique so you arrive at this kind of stately home hotel outside dublin and and there were about three four thousand fans and just for training camp just milling around on the the putting greens because a golf resort outside and lots of kids and stuff and um united were were there but the hotel was kind of open as well so there was like you know kids with their faces pressed against the glass and um and bruno just seeing someone in action that you've seen on the pitch um and you know spoken to in a kind of mixed zone setting but actually seeing them up close is a big player like that's really fascinating and what was really interesting for me is just watching him as a human being interacting with the the sligo manchester united supporters club and you know they they they wanted to present him with their player of the year award and you know they also brought along a bag of kind of knickknacks and sort of started here's a jigsaw and here's a picture and he was just so good with them he was like just a genuine look and then you know in the in in the conversation you just know you're speaking to um a really intelligent person really special person in terms of how he interacts and that's the thing i'd always heard about bruno that he gets criticized for the sometimes histrionics on the pitch he's not he's very marmite a lot of opposition fans don't like him but within united they know his value that he's a person that brings a lot of people together and wears his heart on his sleeve at all times so meeting just seeing that was interesting but um you then i guess the major football point is where is bruno fernandez in terms of having shouldered this football club for six years how does he feel about that and what's he going to do in the future and um he had a very i think he sees the game differently not just on the pitch but off the pitch right a very interesting answer about that right what do you mean like so you know it wasn't the kind of ego answer of i need medals this team hasn't delivered it for me i'm off it was more um he said i you know every time i speak the club i say to them guarantee me we're going to be competitive you can't guarantee that we're going to win titles but you can guarantee that we can compete and that's where I'm at.

59:54But if they do give me that guarantee, then it's up to me. It's up to me to be the best version of myself and make other people the best versions of themselves. I just thought that was an amazing answer, really. It kind of shows who he is, but it also shows that that is the challenge for Manchester United now. They've got this player that's been way above the rest of them for quite a long time. If he's going to stay, they're going to have to keep building and competing and I do feel they're at a real junction again. Harry Maguire spoke about that this week as well. It's going to be a big summer.

1:00:28It's a huge moment, isn't it? I keep referencing it. This will all be undercut by a 2-1 win for Leeds. The win in that game basically solidifies Champions League football for them in the top three, you'd thought. It's a free shot for them, as we keep saying, with those one game a week. They've got this big character in Bruno. They've got some other big characters. You feel like the characters of Mbumo, Cunha, Harry Maguire Maguire talked about this didn't he in his interview with Paul Hurst about some people have come here and they haven't been big enough say what you want about me but I'm tough enough to be at Manchester United he's right nothing beats good recruitment and that's the thing that's really moved the dial over the last year they've bought good players at last and they bought the right characters of players and you know they're now starting to get back to where they should be but that's what Bruno and Harry Maguire are talking about I think they've got a great chance to qualify for the Champions League but as Bruno said to me in my time you know he said we've had some four great months under Michael Karnick but we've never been the team and he said anyone can have a good spell we've never been the team that can have a good season and our challenge is to do it every week and this next stage for United is all about going from you know up and down to adding enough good players to the squad that suddenly they can get some sort of consistency and they're not lurching everywhere very quickly if he's able to be quick Michael Carrick gets the job I think he does yeah and he should but as important as what they do in the summer Gregor, Carrick for the job?

1:02:00Yeah partly because I don't see what the obvious option is from external but he's also doing a great job and like James Gerbrandt wrote an interesting column recently I know this isn't quick but like the kind of what a manager is seems to be shifting a little bit they're not all these big titans anymore and sometimes it's someone who as long as they can engage the players and they're an intelligent coach and it helps nowadays it seems too if you've got a connection to the club then that can be and a good staff around him as well that can be enough to take United one step forward and that's what they need to do because they've taken so many steps backwards for a long long time and Bruno's been like the thing that jumped out in this is 106 goals 103 assists appeared in 320 of the club's 333 games since arriving in January 2020 and as Johnny said when you think about how dysfunctional Team Man United have been through that time that's extraordinary and I've been quite critical of him I don't like his body language on the pitch he probably shouldn't have had to wave his arms around as much as he has because he's not surrounded with players that are anywhere near the standard of him a lot of the time so it's been it's been like I don't know he's been an unlucky man in the history of Manchester United in terms of the time he's been there but he's definitely a Manchester United player yeah absolutely and a brilliant interview you can read it on the Times website Just search for Bruno Fernandes and Johnny's name.

1:03:19We'll have to leave it there. A jam-packed show on this Monday morning. Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you two for listening. We'll be back in the coming week with the NFL show and the regular show on Thursday. See you then.