Is there any loyalty in football and how brave is Tuchel?

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. Does loyalty exist in football? Middlesbrough fans and plenty of neutrals certainly think not after Rob Edwards joins Wolves as manager, but can he keep them in the Premier League? On today's show, we'll also discuss Thomas Tuchel's latest comments about his selection dilemma, return to the debate around football this season, asking if the return of long throws is a good thing, and we'll hear about an exclusive interview coming up on the Times website this weekend. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, The football correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft, and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robson.

0:41It's here as usual. Here we are, team, ready for a sprawling Thursday show during an international break. Where will we head? What will we talk about? I've got an announcement to make to start us off. Right. I'm too cool out. You're too cool out? Too cool out. Too cool out, okay. Too cool out. And I'm going to tell you why. Right. Forget the big wins, Johnny. Forget the big statements. Forget the forthright press conferences. He's gone too far. he's finally said it Thomas Tuchel he's finally said that Jude Bellingham Harry Kane and Phil Foden can't all start at the same time and quite frankly this is outrageous because what on earth what on earth is every football podcast every sports desk and every England fan up and down the country in their pubs supposed to talk about for the next seven months Johnny he also said I am not a fish yesterday which was one of the great quotes I just thought to myself I don't know how and when but that's going to end up in an intro at some point that'll get pulled from the recess out of his depth swimming against the tide I am not a fish put it on file you name it there was one where Bobby Robson when he was under pressure came out of Lancaster Gate and Bobby was like the world's nicest bloke and a very obliging man or whatever and someone's got a bike next to the railings and someone went so he's just standing there for the photographers just they're taking their photographs Bob could you just get hold of that bike yes of course standing there with his bike for no reason whatsoever so the following day on your bike lobster we're not nice people are we really deep down we're not really very good people but anyway come back to Thomas Tuchel I mean he said what we've all been maybe wanting an England manager to say for quite a while Johnny Absolutely, clarity and tactics and all that stuff is great.

2:36There'll be other things to debate, by the way. Phil Foden as a false nine. Phil Foden as a false nine. There you go, there's one straight off the bat. We're going to get that in the next two games at some point. That's Thomas Ducall's fantasy, he says. He's been thinking about this Phil Foden that I think he's picturing a little bit like a Dembele or a Kai Havertz as sort of slotting into that role. Where does Harry Kane go in that world? no it's an alternative to Harry Kane which is good you have to have alternatives to Harry Kane but clearly Harry Kane plays and you take him off just to conserve his energy right so then we stick little Phil up there well one of the problems is not just Billingham we've won the league and got halfway through the Champions League playing there yeah well I agree I mean I think that would work as well turns out listeners panic over we've got loads you either play Foden as a false nine or you play Bellingham up there and you put Foden in as 10.

3:35That's what you do. But you call a running ball. You call a running ball. I was panicked. I was worried. I thought he'd finally set up the debate and turns out... I was joking. This is how it ends, actually, isn't it? Last 16, Morocco, lose 3-1. They're all on the pitch, hands on hips, looking at each other going... Definitely. Why are you still here? Why are you still here? We play Phil Foden. We're not meant to be here together. what's going on Thomas Tuchel just running down the tunnel being like I couldn't do it I couldn't do it yeah no look he's looking at the fact Harry Kane's a notoriously difficult player to find backups for to replace because he's so good we saw Spurs struggle for years with all their different deputies that didn't work and nobody's really made a convincing claim for England Ollie Watkins is probably the closest he's a slightly different type of player to Kane anyway so he's maybe less an alternative than a different tactical option that you put someone to run behind.

4:32So one thing Tuchel's trying to make clear is he's got a structure that he wants to maintain and he's thinking that, you know, Kane drops deep anyway. It might make more sense in terms of Kane alternatives to have someone that comes on in a false nine role, you know, and obviously like a Watkins is a different type. So that's what he wants to explore. And then still has that pace out wide either side. yeah exactly he wants a Rashford or a Gordon and I think Saka is pretty nailed down with Maduecki as a kind of deputy so that's what he's thinking I really like anyone any coach who's got firm clarity clarity and will stick with it and has got the kind of has got the the courage to actually spell it out that's really refreshing because we spend so long trying to guess at what people are trying to do and as it happens I think he is right in saying that as stands in his system you don't play Foden, Bellingham and Kane if you think, which he does that you need pace wide so I don't think Foden can play wide and you only need one number 10 because you've got a great combination behind them of Elliot Anderson and Declan Rice so there is only one number 10 Was there discussions in this press conference around Cole Palmer as well of course who's obviously been injured this season who just don't can I ask about no you cannot ask about Cole Palmer actually so Cole it's funny because I think Cole Palmer is the great sort of wild card that's going to come in and reopen this whole debate just as he's found some sort of clarity I suspect Foden will do really well if he can just get over that kind of mental block he seems to have with England playing in that role and that'll be a way of Foden being part of the set up but then Cole Palmer's going to come back Morgan Rogers has an amazing season Eze's still good well Eze's still got that weird role in the squad doesn't he where he's like the kind of extra 23rd person so maybe he's competing with Cole Palmer for that 26 man squad could be 30 you know possibility they've raised it as a possibility

6:49all the stuff where they say oh you can't take all of them 26 man squad you can take all of them you can take all of them that's never been the problem absolutely you can take all of them especially if he's only going to take Harry Kane as a striker you can't play all of them but you can take all of them Martin what do you think about some of the points Johnny raised from the press conference and some of the things you've heard from Thomas Tuchel because Johnny said it there he will stick with it that is part of the challenge isn't it now for Thomas Tuchel he's been very clear he's had a lot of clarity which we applaud as if both England if you're an England fan and as journalists we're like right this is what you stand for but you do have to follow it through now, don't you?

7:24You can't have that joke scenario. I've said this all the way through. I just see potentially a scenario in which we look back on Phil Foden like we look back on Paul Scholes and go, how did we not work out a way that you could play this guy? How do we not work out a system that you could get this guy in the team somewhere? and he had to be understudied to Harry Kane, understudied to Jude Bellingham. That's my only concern because you look back on that England team now and we don't go, oh, it was a great smashing team. Even though it really was a smashing team, we look back and go, we should have won the European Championships in 2004.

8:13Should have won the European Championships. But we didn't because we couldn't get the post goals and the central midfield right. didn't drop David Beckham, who was the least in form of any of those players. So that's my only concern. And I appreciate that being a gun coach is that you'll make really tough decisions, like Bellingham or Foden. And you'll say, right, no, this comes down to Bellingham or Foden, and I will make the tough decision. The alternative is if you're a gun coach, you're meant to be able to work stuff like this out. Well, that's the thing, is that he came in as the gun coach to win the World Cup.

8:50Maybe the short-term aspect means he just comes in and clears up a few issues for us and goes, no, no, you don't do it like that. You don't do it like that. He has to play. It's all well and good talking about clarity. That's one area of the pitch where England have an enormous number of options. So you can say, okay, it's easy to, it's not easy, but you're in a privileged position being able to say, we're going to put all those number 10s to one side. What about the number six? You just alighted on Elliot Anderson. you're talking about we're going to play with a 6 an 8 and a 10 if Elliot Anderson goes out who are you playing?

9:23he might look at he might look at Scott he might look at Wharton he can explore it all he wants there's no one else yeah but that's not his fault but then you might have to reassess this clarity you're talking about in terms of the system and the shape so like it's easy to talk like that when you're talking about this position and this area of the pitch the front end of the pitch it's not quite so easy in other parts yeah but I don't think he's saying if there's injuries I'm still going to stick to the system I think to be fair to him he's talking about in everyone fit, ideal scenario. And he did say yesterday, if the World Cup was tomorrow, I'm doing this.

9:54He is an open-minded guy and said things can change in the next eight months. But I think with Foden, this is a logical thing to try. He's been tried on the right. He's been tried on the left. He's been tried as 10. He's been tried as a double 10. And this hasn't been attempted yet. I think short of playing him a lot further back. Left back. left back well that's a joke wouldn't have done a worse job than in the year 2024 left back scenario but yeah managers have got to make these choices we're seeing Arnie Slott struggling with this plethora of options that he's got and he's he's having to figure out who blends with who I think this is quite standard that a coach needs to needs to do this the complication in international football is you haven't signed the players to your specification You're given this inheritance and he happens to have this ridiculous number of really good number tens.

10:53So he hasn't created the problem. He's got to try and solve it. But he loves Foden. I mean, that is really clear. When Thomas Tuchel talks about Foden, he talks with a lot of enthusiasm about him as a player and a person. Maybe more enthusiasm than certain other options. So I think he will try and get Phil Foden into that squad in this role. and a guy that's won the Champions League with Kai Havertz playing up front I think it's worth saying well you do know how to use this type of player in this position Is that part of it then also that Harry Kane is obviously in world beating form at Bayern Munich this season but Oli Watkins who was one of the stars of Euro 2024 out of form on the bench for Aston Villa and he's starting to before this squad people going should Danny Welbeck get a call up and all this kind of stuff is that part of it as well that actually he's going well actually I can solve this two problems here about how do I get Foden in and my lack of backup striker, where I go, well, it's Kane, and if it's not Kane, it's all the number 10s, lads.

11:51I mean, and then we go back to Lee Carsley, though, don't we? Well, it's, yeah, I mean, look, the thing is with Foden, you're not actually getting him into the team, are you? You're getting him into the team as understudy to Harry Kane, as understudy to Jude Bellingham. As off the bench. Yeah, that's what you're getting him in as a sub. you know he's in the team the reserve right back is at the moment you know you know he's in the team on Jed Spence which I understand and that's your call that's your call I just I like good footballers I just see that they will be players in those forward positions that's how Newcastle was going against West Ham yeah well I was going to say about the wingers I'm looking at Anthony Gordon and I know he has some cracking games at Newcastle or whatever but I'm looking at him and thinking is not at that absolute top level.

12:44You were really close to Terry Venables, right? I mean, he left Leticia out. Oh, yeah, he left Leticia. He couldn't play Leticia and Sheringham and Gazza at the same time. He left Leticia out because he wouldn't run. Right. He left Leticia out because... Well, there might be something in that. Yeah, exactly. Right, so he left Leticia out because he didn't think that he moved enough. Right. So he thought there was only one position to play in, which was playmaker. That was the only position you could play. And he said, but the problem was, is that at that time, there was a lot of man marking going on.

13:19He said, so it only works if your playmaker drags the man marker into all these different positions. You think of Dieter Aertz, who was the German guy, 1996. I think I pronounced his name right. Probably not, but 19... And he was like a David Batou type guy. and so this is Terry's idea right he's got to drag his marker it's got to be dragged all over the foot and then that will create the space and he just thought that Letizia didn't do that so what would happen is they would man mark him he said and then you play nine against nine he said apart from you've lost your best player and they have put their absolute workhorse on him so you know the exchange isn't the same basically But now even the best players have to be workhorses that's the thing that's where Anthony Gordon is he's great on the other side of the game too we've spoken about all season this kind of ever greater shift towards physicality being really important in the Premier League and they want to replicate the Premier League in the international scene, I'd even say that's partly where Phil Foden loses out too I think there's something to be said for, you look at Rogers, Rogers is a big guy, he's a big physical specimen so is Gordon and they're direct if you look at the forward line, you get the sense he's trying to create, it's about being really direct and purposeful less of the, as I said a few weeks back, the tippy tappy guys around the edge of the bottom.

14:55Anthony Barry last week when he sat down with a few of us Thomas Tuchel's number two, he said something really interesting, I think we're all going to keep going back to it which is, the game is stuck in his opinion and in a number of coaches opinion in the middle of the pitch everyone's cancelling each other out he said 24 metres in the middle of the pitch didn't he it's a great interview yeah and it's about being able to accelerate the game so I think that's what we're talking about it's been able to use pace and get forward quickly without maybe resorting to smacking it along Rashford's going to get the chance we believe in the game he's not the same he's not the same as Gordon out of possession out of possession so that's his issue isn't it very interesting Johnny we need to talk about shoes very quickly.

15:37Yeah. Do you like them? I mean, they're aimed at your agenda. Well, I was going to say, I think the man to my left is more of a kind of, you know, crocs and socks kind of guy walking about Walthamstow with his flat white, you know. You can see it, can't you? Here's my Nike mind. You can definitely see it. But yeah, I mean, it's good fun, but there's the other side of this England set up, isn't there, with heat chambers and rubber shoes and all this kind of stuff. I mean, is it just a laugh or is it distraction? Is it something for us to talk about in an international break? What are they doing it for?

16:11It's a classic international break story. I mean, it was like classic intro sort of fodder yesterday when Thomas Tuchel started talking. It was actually Esri Konza that started talking about the shoes because he was wearing them. To be clear, England haven't got a team of boffins who've decided that these shoes are a great idea. And these shoes apparently are mind-altering because I think what I was trying to read about this... They're not quite shoes, are they? They're like rubbery slippers. They're more than shoes. They're 80-pound Crocs, basically. But apparently they rub a bit of your foot that awakens your mind, but also the bright colours stir your mental synapses.

16:49Martin Samuel's just turning his microphone off. I used to have a pair of scarlet pixie boots that were mind-altering. They basically altered my mind. They basically altered my mind. They'd never wear them in Elford High Street. 11 o 'clock on a Saturday night basically you're trying to take the night bus still got them no very long time ago mate very long time ago very disappointing 80s well as I say some serious and slightly light hearted discussion around England you can read Johnny's match reports absolutely serious the scarlet pixie boots yeah the scarlet pixie boots very very serious I'm sure we'll come back to that at some point but as I say you can read Johnny's reports from the Serbia and Albania games on the Times website this weekend.

17:33Johnny, another big matchup, perhaps not one getting the focus that it deserved until you interviewed one of the managers involved, Trinidad and Tobago against Jamaica, which means Dwight York against Steve McLaren in the managerial dugouts. You spoke to Dwight York about this game. I did. It's a brilliant set-up, actually. So it's Steve McLaren versus Dwight York, with Dick Advocat also involved at the age of 78, who's the manager of Curacao. And those are the three teams sort of vying for qualification from the group. Trinidad are third but they've got a home game against Jamaica who they pushed really close the last time as Dwight said to me it's England-Scotland and we're Scotland so obviously I like that.

18:08That's why he won you over. That's why I like you. But yeah if Trinidad can win they've got a pretty easy home game remaining and that would almost certainly get them at least second which would get them into a playoff but it might even win them the group and that would allow him to take a team in the World Cup as a manager having done it as Trinidad captain and it was just great it was really interesting catching up with him I think I mean first of all he looks in ridiculous shape for a 54 year old works out a lot looks like he could still play and I think one thing that sort of came through was because he had that kind of famous smile and and kind of he was a very instinctive player I think he was one of those people that was always viewed as you know just a bit easy going and he probably was as a person but he wasn't easy going about his football you know he was part of that Man United dressing room and that came through as a coach he's pretty sort of you know focused on driving standards pretty hungry to get ahead and he's somebody that's had to wait for his opportunities he's won a trophy in Australia but didn't last very long so you know him adding to the galaxy of familiar faces on the touchlines at the World Cup would be quite a thing would be great fun yeah you can read Johnny's interview with Dwight York on the Times website Right now, it feels like the manager's section of the podcast.

19:29We've talked about Thomas Tuchel, Dwight York, quick mention of Steve McLaren. Let's talk about the new Wolves manager, Rob Edwards. Wolves confirming the appointment of the former player as a new head coach and giving him a three and a half year contract, which is very interesting given the predicament they're in. They gave the last bloke a three year contract and sacked him two months later. Yes, very true. Through about past three and a half years. He should have been worried if he'd got to. He'd gone by Christmas. Edwards took charge of Middlesbrough only last summer and swapped sides has made this move with Middlesbrough sitting second in the Championship.

20:01No team have ever survived in the Premier League after making a start as bad as Wolves, who have only taken two points from their first 11 games. Martin, you wrote a column recently, and we talked about it on this podcast, about Wolves having a lack of local connection in their team. It seems the powers that be have read that column and panicked and brought in a former player who played more than 100 times for the club to try and fix the mess. I doubt very much that it's my column. that has influenced anything. But, yeah, it's strange that they don't seem, no one seems to care about the local influence in the team.

20:34But, like, whenever a manager goes back there who's played for the club, it's always seen as this great strength that, you know, the fans all love him. He gets it. He gets it. He's a local. He knows he's one of us. He knows we're special and all of this. So, yeah, I mean, good luck because if he keeps them up, they should build a, well, they should give him more of Hampton, basically. So it's a no from you on the idea that he can keep them up. Just to be clear. I mean, if it's never happened, there's a reason it's never happened, is all I would say. It's going to be extraordinarily hard. I mean, Roy Hodgson said to me once that he thought if you were in the bottom three at this stage in the season, it was around about end of October, November time, the earliest you could emerge from the bottom three really the the earliest you could be clear of relegation was towards the end of march you know it would take you that long because of just how other results would go that someone would always win and and you know someone would go on a little run and and and you know he said it's a five-month job to just get yourself safe even if you sort of can somehow inspire Champions League form or whatever.

21:56I would expect them to be, if they were to stay up, I would expect them to be writing it into May, maybe even the last day. You know, I don't see how you can get yourself out of it. Yeah, and as you say, even that's in a short period of time. You know, more generic context that Hodgson was talking about. the first match they've got home to Crystal Palace after the international break and then they've got a tricky run you've got to say Aston Villa away Nottingham Forest and Manchester United at home and then trips to Arsenal, United and Liverpool in December Johnny you were nodding a lot during Martin's assessment there of the job Rob Edwards has got Yeah well it seems a doomed task I mean just from the outside that's one of the fascinating things about him taking the job because he's leaving a club that looked pretty well set for at the very least the playoffs to go to one which I mean it would be as Martin said amazing if they could stay up from here particularly given the quality of who they're up against.

22:54And the money there's no suggestion that in January you can suddenly sling 150 million at it or anything like that No. I mean it's on his personal level I suppose the special circumstances here are we've got to recognise managers are human beings with families and stuff and his family's still live in he's from Telford I think the family live in the area I think when he was at Middlesbrough he was actually living basically at the training ground in a hotel next door so on a human level you know this is his dream job you can be home be with kids you can completely understand it I think what we're talking about here is how football and the way we look at players or managers we don't necessarily expect or want them to be human beings we want them to be kind of you know loyalty machines or whatever or or uh but that's never been more nonsense though has it in the modern game though the idea of loyalty when you know with the money involved in the game as well that's another side of it where that is a true factor of this that he'll have got a good signing on fee from wolves that three and a half year contract whatever happens he'll be paid out of that if they do decide to sack him like this is a significant thing and And there's a lot, I mean, look, there's a lot of, everyone says, but, you know, they're leaving Steve Gibson, most, you know, one of the best chairman, blah, blah, most loyal chairman.

24:14And he is, right? But he's still sat into a lot of managers. That's not true anymore. It used to be true. Yeah. He's not. Yeah. So I'm not blaming Steve Gibson for this, by the way. But if you're Rob Edwards, you must think, you must look at the job Michael Carrick did, and then he ends up going. And people like Chris Wilder, who went up and didn't last very long, I know he didn't do well, but, you know, they didn't wait either so Rob Edwards would know that there's a fair chance somewhere down the line that it'll be Middles but part in company The human aspect Johnny is the most important and that's true everyone overlooks that it's close to home it's a club that he's joining for the fourth time I think I think probably say Burnley were in the same position as Wolves in terms of points and stuff and they come along he'd probably pass up on that it's not about just rejoining the Premier League it's a bit of a thankless task as we're saying but it's about joining the club so he played 100 games then he was youth team coach I didn't actually realise he was assistant well he was assistant to Kenny Jacket then he was interim then he was assistant to Walters Enga so there is a fair old connection he went away to be England youth coach but he's had some career just thinking about it his career really started as a manager in 2021 with Forrest Green and his first season won promotion to League One left also upset Forrest Green a little bit by that but it was Watford and again you think thankless to ask but you're a young manager it's a chance in the championship why would you not go Saturday after 10 games whatever Luton promotion put up a good fight in the Premier League you've got to say and then left halfway through the next season when they're on track for another relegation and the Borough job is a good good opportunity given all that context actually well we've talked about it this season on the Football League show haven't we that they've surprised a lot of people with where they are and I think Johnny your assertion that oh well they'll probably get the playoffs is kind of true but it's also tight it's also tight there's another world in which they fall from where they are now and the fans go he couldn't get us over the line all that stuff I should just say as well I've got no problem with Middlesbrough fans being upset at Rob Edwards in the same way with Forest Green fans there's just the kind of loyalty chat around it this week probably because it's international week and there's less for us where it's gone a little bit too far of like, Middlesbrough fans, you can absolutely have your say.

26:38Everyone else going, he's a traitor, he's a disgrace. It's nonsense, isn't it? Absolutely nonsense. Just remember, again, he was sacked by Watford after. I think it was 10 games and like that. So he knows there's no loyalty there. And the Luton one was best for both parties, I think. But the two times he's left, it's been for a better opportunity. That's football. And the other thing is that, without a doubt, what the guys are saying about family and it's in the Midlands and you can actually spend time with your family as opposed to staying in a hotel in Middlesbrough. Number one. But number two, you would look at this as well.

27:14Three and a half year contract. So you're probably looking at this thinking, right, okay, even if we don't stay up this season, it would be very harsh to blame Robert Edwards for them getting relegated. You know, there'll be a lot of people saying, well, he took over a club in a position where nobody has ever stayed up in the league. So he would have to, you know, overturn over 30 years of Premier League football to keep them up. So he might be thinking is, well, even if I can't keep them up, right, now I'm taking over Wolves in the championship. We come back, I get them up in the championship.

27:57Everyone's delighted. Get that statue. We'll fly in, we get the statue, someone gives me Wolverhampton, you know, and we go from there because that is a, you know, that is a realistic expectation. My only thing about that is that, like, sometimes if it's a miserable half a season in the Premier League still, your standing can be damaged. A lot of water has already passed under the bridge before you've got that restart. You need the commitment. You need a real commitment from the club. Oh, absolutely. But do you not think, Gregor, that he might be booking it, that it won't be miserable. I'll get a few results.

28:38Of course. I'll improve it. I might not be able to keep them up because mathematics dictates that you possibly can't keep them up from this position. But he did also have that at Luton, of course. If we get a few wins and we get, you know, if we make a good fist of the last six months, then you know although we go down we don't go down like completely flat and everyone furious and everything like that I don't know you just look at that and you back yourself over a season and a half rather than half a season that'll keep us up in half a season I don't think Wolves' squad is as bad as the no as the two points from 11 games or whatever it is you know you look at the midfield Gomez Andre just a very quick thought on that because I'm thinking about the bottom and obviously you had Wolves, West Ham Nottingham Forest all down near the bottom of the table which of them have ended up with the best manager for the situation they're in you've got Sean Dyche at Nottingham Forest you've got Nuno at West Ham and now you've got Rob Edwards at Wolves who's got the best manager for the situation I think Nuno's the best manager among those three but perhaps the fit is best at Forest interesting yeah I think that's probably right I mean there was only a couple of weeks ago where we were saying Nuno's doomed and he's found something from somewhere this is what I was just about to say you know you couldn't see West Ham winning a game you couldn't see West Ham winning a game I mean and I think I've got a column that basically he said I don't know what the guy is meant to be doing what he's meant to be doing with this group of players he's got no pace in midfield he's got no pace at the back he's got a centre forward that's a danger to himself looking at his record and somehow back to back win he's about to put him through in pots who nobody would really consider in and he's given them more energy and life and stuff in his field along with Fernandes definitely adds to the challenge that Rob Edwards has though doesn't it now that Sean Dyche and Nuno are in at those two clubs and you start looking at them going for sure they've got a chance now, you've got a chance now, we'll see what Rob Edwards can do at Wolves in the coming weeks I'm sure we'll talk about them plenty more just before we take a short break, a reminder that as well as this show, The Times produces loads and loads of other brilliant podcasts.

30:55I've just finished the six-part series called The Poppy Day Bomb, an investigation into what happened in Enniskillen in 1987. It's fantastic. You should definitely, definitely check it out. And make sure you're listening to our rugby podcast, The Rock. They are bringing you more shows than ever during these Autumn Internationals, including a reaction show from Twickenham on Saturday after England face New Zealand. But it is time for a break. So it's time, Gregor, you've got to get back on board now. We've had a few tough weeks with no correct answers. So focus. I have made it a nice easy one. Question from Bill Edgar's quiz, which you can do on the Times website now.

31:27Seth Johnson received his one and only England cap in year 2000 in a defeat against Italy. But which club was he playing for at the time? Find out after the break.

31:48Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Johnny Northcroft, Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel with me. Martin, so keen. You love a quiz so much. So keen to give the answer that you did it just before we headed into the break. Also means Gregor's still about five weeks without a correct answer, which keeps him on his toes. the answer being? Bristol over. Yeah, very good. I knew, as I said, the answer being. I was like, he's not actually going to say the answer now. Oh, it's funny that he never learned. It is. He never, ever, ever learned. Derby County.

32:19Derby County. Very good indeed. Seth Johnson at Derby County. Greg, how are you feeling about... Yeah, I actually feel angry, aren't you? He was sharp. He was quick. You're actually quite upset about that, aren't you? Never lose that competitive edge. I wanted to return to a debate that we had on Monday that was sparked by you and Hamza, Greg, having a bit of a ding-dong about the stylistic changes we've seen in the Premier League this season. More long throws, goals from set pieces, whether it's a good thing off the back of Sunderland against Arsenal. Was it a good game? Was it just good for 10 minutes at the end?

32:47And I just thought it's nice to bring Martin and Johnny in as well. But first, we had a few listeners get in touch, a few people making comments below the line on Spotify. One listener said, Long throw rubbish is dire. Palace game was awful. Hamza was spot on. It's killing it. then we had Kenny a Sunderland fan who got in touch to say Tom can you let Hamza know that I bet not a single one of the 46 ,000 of us inside the Stadium of Light thought it was a crap game footy is a live event and it was electric in there watching through a TV screen with a stopwatch by your side doesn't tell you everything so you know well okay so is football boring hold up okay do I well is it more boring there's such a lot to unpack here do I enjoy the long throws I'm not particularly enjoying them no you're not enjoying them No, no, because I think at the start of the season, they were creating mayhem and leading to goals.

33:38And I think we're now already we're seeing them becoming a repetitive tactic. But nothing against them intrinsically, apart from the fact they slow the game down with the amount of time people take to take the throws. But I didn't think that was the story of Sunderland Arsenal. Sunderland was that was really intelligent direct play which is maybe the one chink tactically in Arsenal's armour so but nothing against the team it was more that it kind of started a broader conversation because as well Manchester United Tottenham as well was another game of where it was not the most entertaining for the full amount but it was then mad at the end and everyone kind of goes what a great game and you're like well was it a great game or was it a good spectacle that's the kind of thing that we're getting into here I think I think Premier League football has been boring for a number of years actually being quite honest for different reasons I think we're now looking at repetitiveness of a different sort but you wrote a piece last year about the pepification of football it's obviously taken a bit of a journey since then Martin wrote a very good column recently about the pep imitators and I think that's I think that's the problem that we've got ourselves into where Pep's been so successful with his brand of football and specifically with it's not Tiki Taka he doesn't like Tiki Taka Tiki Taka's short passing for the sake of it but Pep's style of football is basically positional play and I don't know how long we've got to unpack this but that is a style of structuring in possession where you put players in preordained positions and it was a response to two things Johan Cruyff and his teachings of football about occupying dominating territory and space and a response to the prevalent marking system at the time which is zonal marking So you've got zonal marking, use zonal attacking, find the spaces in between the markers and you're away.

35:29That's the basic framework. Pep, with his incredible intellect, added so many different things to that with so many incredible players on top of that. But what we've had is a lot of copy and paste coaches sort of taking the template and just doing a paler version. and I think we got to a point about a year ago where the Premier League, I was watching games thinking, I've seen this before, the ball's gone there, it's going to go there, it's going to go there. And the opposition knew it more at the point and you'd get stalemate sort of games. What we're seeing now is one of the responses to how do we do something differently.

36:06Going back to Anthony Barry talking about the middle being stuck. One way to get around that is to go over it, be direct, just whack the ball over the midfield and fight for a second ball. We're seeing a lot of that. Set pieces is another response. It's saying we're finding it difficult to build attacks through the middle that create a goal or because we all know what each other's going to do. So here's a bit of randomness. Let's take a long throw. And now we seem to be in that phase. But there are other ways of playing football and I hope that's what we're going to get towards. you know you can allow the players to give them license you can allow their intelligence the way they connect to create goals you know Martin and I are old enough to remember football in the 80s and the 90s where you saw incredible teams Wenger's Arsenal or Terry's England Fergie's United which they had a number of different weapons sometimes they'd go direct sometimes it would come down to two brilliant players connecting sometimes it would go down to someone Is that part of it then that we've seen kind of Gregor mentioned you talking about the pepification and now we've swung too far the other way that there's not a blend that everyone kind of We've not swung too far yet It's one season I think we're in a mindset where we're seeing it as a false duality, we're seeing it as an either or it's either got to be ticky-tacka or it's got to be long throws and it's not there's a lot of stuff in the middle Plus a lot of the teams we were talking about we were relying on set pieces and Long throws And are You know Executing them really well Also play really exciting football Bournemouth They're really direct But they're great to watch Like There's a lot of nuance to this And also Really interesting Thinking about City In the last two games The way they played against Bournemouth And Liverpool In that For the first time Really probably ever He's issued Like traditional wingers Like Witt And Docu's made a lot of runs From in to out Or he's played He's played narrower And then he's just relied On the full backs to offer the width so it's like I don't know he's finding another way to connect with Haaland almost through the middle it's like a different way to play through the middle it seems to be a bit different but you can get too bogged down in this I think like also it's really important I think a good development if you see teams finding a way to disrupt the established order whatever way they want to do it well let's see them do it because that will make for a more exciting league there's no problem with any of this you've just got to find a way to beat it and teams forgot that teams forgot that when they were obsessed with teams forgot that for a long long time we thought this is the way that the best do it so we're going to try and emulate it and that's natural and there's probably a bit of that happening now because Arsenal have been such a success without getting to the top but people look at them and their set plays and their physicality and their dominance like a lot of coaches when you speak to them say my god when you play Arsenal they dominate you in a lot of ways and that's probably there's been a little bit of that as well but that's always And then people complain about it as if it's so unsophisticated.

39:10But actually, you know, Arsenal, who are in other ways one of the most sophisticated teams in the league, you know, use this tactic in the way that everyone used to go nuts about Sam Allardyce saying Tony Pulis or whatever. And you go, well, actually, all they're trying to do is keep up with Patrick Vieira and Emmanuel Petit. Because if you're talking about a fella that wanted six foot four absolute powerhouses in the centre of midfield and made it a really, really physical game, Arsene Wenger. But they played beautiful football as well, but they were a big physical team. Gilberto Silva, you know, they were a big physical team.

39:52And I think what I said earlier about it being both sides of the same coin, you can copy set pieces, right? That's a copyable thing. You can copy positional play because it is this quite structured blueprint. As in the exact moves that people are making. If you're a lesser coach, you don't have to be Pep. You look at the blueprint and you can bring that in to your own team. That's why we see so many familiar tactics throughout the divisions. And it's about having imagination. I think City have become a joy this year. I watch almost my favourite team to watch at the moment because Pep's, he's gone past this.

40:28He's giving his game back to the players a little bit. as Martin said he's Doku's coming in doing dribbles he's got Foden and he's got two number 10s he's got Foden and Cherky connecting in the middle of the pitch let's see what you can come up with and he's got two number 10s two calls like this well there you go there you go and you've got Haaland a game now that's focused more around Haaland and where he wants the ball and it's like Pep's always ahead and he's it's like he's gone right well I disagree I disagree that he's ahead He's got a tippy-tappy goalkeeper and he's got these giant lumps come over and smashing everyone out of the way.

41:07Yeah, I wouldn't... No, that's fair enough. Pep's often ahead. Of course he is. He has been for nearly a decade and a half, but I think the game's started to change and we're seeing ways he's tried to react to it and a lot of them have failed. Yeah. This possibly will succeed. It's now two games, really. But like I say, it's like just finding another way of trying to play through the middle or if Doku starts inside, it leaves space on the outside. Like, the full-back is left with a conundrum. Do I go and mark Nico O 'Reilly or whoever's left-back? That leaves a space in behind for Doku to exploit.

41:42There are different ways of moving players around. There's been no more exciting performance, really, this season by an individual player than Doku against Liverpool. You know, every time the ball went to him, you're thinking, right, what's going to happen now? What's going to happen next? You know, I didn't think Conor Bradley did badly against him. I saw some people say, oh, Conor Bradley had a nightmare against him. I didn't think he had a nightmare against him at all. I thought he had a double handful. And he did as well as you could expect in the circumstances because Docker was exceptional.

42:13So I think you can find examples of wonderful, exciting football this season. But it's a definite factor that if every goalkeeper is a footballing goalkeeper and they're not necessarily a big commanding goalkeeper, it doesn't really take the brains of Lloyd George for someone who's a coach to turn around and go, well, I know what we can do. This guy doesn't want to come off his line, right? So let's make him, you know, let's turn it into chaos in the six yard box. Well, just on that, coming back to that theme then, a couple of stats from Opta. In terms of long throws into the penalty area, we're at 4.1 per game so far this season, which is by far and away the most of the last 10 years.

42:55for the last 10 years, it was around 1.4, even down to like 0.9 per game. So we are, I know we're only in the early stages, I know it's only November, but that's a significant step change. But managers copy each other, that's the other thing. No one played 4-2-3-1. And suddenly everyone played 4-2-3-1. It was like overnight. I even saw Fergie once go to Chelsea, get beat 3-0, and you can understand why he got beat 3-0 as well, because he played 4-3-3 and he hadn't played 4-3-3 with Manchester United. And Chelsea were the best 4-3-3 team in Europe at that stage. And United went there and mirrored them, which I know is a common tactic in football.

43:37You mirror the formations or whatever, but you're thinking, you're never going to be as good at 4-3-3 as Chelsea. Chelsea are absolutely exceptional at this system. You know, managers copy each other. Another thing, we mentioned briefly in another show, is that another reason teams are going direct is because teams became too good at pressing, basically. It's like, why would you continually, we've seen it for a number of years now, continually try and play through that and play into the opposition's hands and lose the ball and not just keepers, defenders making calamitous errors. Eventually that was going to stop.

44:11Someone was going to go, this is madness. It took too long, but it happened. And the reaction is, if a team's really good at that, you go over it. And it's everyone knowing each other's game. so that deservedly tactic of holding the ball at the back to invite the press and then playing through it nobody falls for that anymore no they stand yeah they go like go on then okay yeah well Ancelotti when I went to see Carlo a couple of years ago he said that about Shakhtar Donetsk that was deserved wasn't it that was deserved and he said to his players look you know what they want you to do is press them they're going to keep the ball and they want you to press them he said don't press them just don't do anything yeah he said and then eventually they're going to get bored they're going to come towards you they're going to lose the ball and they've beaten 5-1 for me that was one of the most interesting things about watching Forrest last year actually against like pressing was still this kind of dominant you know force and Forrest just didn't press yeah like they were the bottom of all the tables you know all Hamza's charts they were the very bottom until the team enters your half or just about enters your half they don't do it then they go they engage on their terms and it was like this is quite refreshing the other team were like completely flummoxed I remember West Ham on the open day and the centre-hours had it Kilman and I can't remember the other ones and they just kept nodging it forward and they're like oh god what do I do here and they just kept booting it out of the way they're trying to play a diagonal and they just boot it out and you're like ok that works now we've got it back I mean last week the City-Liverpool game the way that City pressed everybody oh I know but never Canate it was just the most it was the most it was the most it was almost obvious tactic it was like you know they got right we press everybody apart from this guy because they just know right let him have it it will come to us yeah loads of views and as I say I think we're broadly on board with this season and some of the changes but you know we're still interested in all your thoughts so do get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk Greg I did also enjoy a different reply that we got to the debate around Tottenham and Manchester United from one of our followers on Instagram who said it used to be lads it's Tottenham now it's lads we might finish above them and they've got Europe and we've got loads of injuries which I thought was quite good for a Tottenham fan anyway as I say we do like to hear from you all the time so do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk we finish with news of an exclusive interview that you can read on the Times website on Friday morning and in the paper on Saturday Martin Samuel you have spoken to the new chair of the football regulator David Kogan as I say we're recording this on Thursday so if you're listening on Thursday this is a little exclusive teaser are for you.

46:49The interview will be on the website on Friday and in Saturday's paper. Tell us about the man tasked with solving lots of the problems in football, if you like. Yeah. What did you make of him? I liked him. I like him. This is a great time of events. I still don't like the idea of regulation, but if you're going to have a regulator, I want a regulator like this guy, because who talks with some knowledge of football? And I thought it, long before I met him, when he was in front of the DCMS the other few months ago, I think it was in the summer he was in front of the DCMS and he talked about cliff edges and he's the first person involved in this process to talk as if there's more than these very obvious cliff edges so people talk about the gap between the Premier League and the Championship, that's all they ever talk about the gap between the Premier League and the Championship and League One and League Two, no no no within the Premier League there's about three or four of these you cannot pretend that Liverpool's what Liverpool want out of football and Liverpool's patterns of business is anything like Burnley you can't even pretend it's anything like those clubs that would aim to be in the Europa League or in that mid-table and safe you certainly can't pretend it's anything like those clubs that feel threatened by relegation when the season starts and, you know, constantly looking at this 35-point margin.

48:20And he was the first guy involved that I've ever heard acknowledge that, which is reality. That's football's reality. There's not just gaps between divisions. I thought that was interesting. I thought, right, he isn't just buying this idea that what we need to do is give the AFL 250 million quid and then that solves everything, you know, because it doesn't, you know, you can't take that money out of Bournemouth and give it to Bristol Overs without it impacting on Bournemouth. You just can't. We sat down in the week. He's a very interesting guy. I liked him. I liked, you know, he's had a lot of stuff, which is not his fault, all the stuff about the process of selection, Lisa Nandy and Keir Starmer, and he talked about that very openly.

49:08Talked about everything very well. There wasn't a question that got ducked. Did he seem like a football man? A football obsessive, a fan. Well, yeah, a fan, certainly a fan. Yeah, most definitely a fan. And someone that isn't just sitting there thinking, well, I know what we'll do. We'll give all the money from here and we'll put it all in there. And that solves that problem. He's not like that at all. Did he seem like somebody that could navigate the different interest groups in terms of being able to talk to them all? Because that's always been a big thing in English football. every club's got his phone number every club's got his phone number which I thought was really interesting that he's gone round he's gone round the clubs and he's got his people to go round the clubs as well because that's the other thing it's all well and good David Cogan and you're hearing Premier League owners and chief execs now and stuff say oh we've met David Cogan he's alright he's okay what they worry about is the sort of DCMS team that comes with him.

50:13But I think he will be able to control that. And I don't think he's going to be a yes man for the Premier League. I don't think he's going to be a yes man for the AFL. And the National League, by the way, it's 116 clubs that are being regulated. So it's the National League as well. Did he say his team? Who's his team? His team's Tottenham. Tottenham. Yeah, but he's just open about Tottenham. You had a Tottenham and West Ham fan sitting down together and got on well. His dad was a West Ham fan. Oh, right. Oh, surely. If you liked him even after that, I'd be sceptical. I mean, it remains a wrong one.

50:46But the... So I just thought... He's very interesting. It's a very long interview. We're going to do a second part of it in the Sunday Times as well. And I just thought he was... He would be my idea of a regulator. But you're still against the regulator. No, I'll tell you what. I'll tell you what I'm against. the only thing that I worry about and I still worry about and it's nothing that I didn't say to him at the time when your aim is stability and sustainability but let's take the stability aspect of it because that's one of the things that is the aim of the regulator stability well stability is the last thing you want in a league you want instability you want the idea that any team a team that finished 15th could win the league next season and you want the idea that a team that was in Europe could get relegated.

51:39You want this movement. You don't want to try to create conditions in which everything remains stable, because who wants to watch that? So that's my only concern. But I think, I hope, that that could just be a semantic difference as opposed to a core belief. and you'd have to change that. If what happened with the regulator was that everything was very stable financially but the league was moribund as a result of that, then you'd have to think about other ways. Yeah, well you can read Martin's interview with David Cogan as I say on the Times website on Friday and then in the sports section on Saturday and you can also get a second chunk of it in Martin's column in the Sunday Times at the weekend as well.

52:35You can read Johnny on the England matches this weekend. Greg, have you done any work this week? Yeah, a lot. Yeah? A little bit wise and sure, real hard-hitting news. Just sat on a podcast chatting about football all the time. I'm sure we'll get some work out of Gregor next week as well. We'll leave it there. Gregor Robinson, Martin Samuel, and Johnny Northcross, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.