Kids win nothing; Worries at Wolves and Chaos at Celtic

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times. Another defeat for Liverpool, a sixth red card for Chelsea in nine games, and chaos at Celtic as Brendan Rodgers leaves with a row and Martin O 'Neill returns. This remarkable season just keeps on producing fascinating stories. On today's show, we'll also discuss the worries at Wolves and ask whether Thomas Frank playing down Tottenham's chances is the right thing to do. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea and Celtic forward Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robson is here.

0:38Two chaps, welcome. Ready, ready and raring to go. Ready. Are we started? Yeah. I thought that was the rehearsal. He's absolutely nailed it. It's a shame we haven't started. Go on, go on, do your gag. No, no, no, you normally take two or three takes. You've done it in one time, so we're surprised. Absolutely outrageous. But it's nice to see you keeping on your toes. Let's talk about the action from last night, as I think it's a good way of getting into some of the bigger topics. Cardiff, Fulham and Brentford all winning on Tuesday night. Grimsley's run coming to an end. Greg, I did enjoy their manager Dave Vartell earlier in the week talking before this game, saying in the press conference that this match would be tougher than Manchester United.

1:21His quote's a very clever way of doing it. I was editing on the day and I was like, he said what? And the reporter who was there filed them and he was like, look, look, look, look, look, Brentford are in great form. That's all I mean. I'm just saying, I'm just saying. Anyway, he was right. He was, yeah. He was absolutely spot on. Another great win for Brentford and Keith Andrews. And then Wednesday night, wins for Arsenal, Chelsea, Man City and Newcastle. But at Anfield, a much-changed Liverpool team beaten 3-0 by Crystal Palace. They rested players two. But I wanted to start, chaps, I'm going to read the intro from Paul Joyce's match report.

1:52He was at the game at Anfield. So I think this sets us up and then Martin and Tony, I'll come to you for your thoughts on where this season is going for Liverpool. Paul writes, Whether the team spoke of sacrifice or surrender can be debated, but the bottom line is that Liverpool's campaign contains another loss, and yet another defeat by Crystal Palace. The circumstances contrasted to those reverses already suffered in the Community Shield and the Premier League this season as Arnie Slott fielded a second-string side, albeit one that still contained a World Cup winner and a European Championship winner.

2:22Yet whether it is the first team or the understudies, Liverpool have forgotten the art of winning. It is now six losses in seven games across all competitions. as Palace demonstrating their newly acquired appetite for silverware sauntered into the Carabao Cup quarter-finals. And I thought that line about Liverpool forgetting the art of winning is particularly striking, Martin, because for a team that sauntered themselves for the title last season, it's becoming a remarkable feature of this season already, isn't it? Aren't they the first team in history to win their first five games and then lose the next four?

2:58I don't think it's ever happened before that anyone's done that. So this, look, we come back to Manchester City last season and that, you know, the Mick McCarthy quote about it can't get any worse than this. It can. We saw with Manchester City last season that once, no matter how good you were, once you've lost that, I don't know, special something. I mean, I think it's confidence as much as anything else. Aura as well, perhaps. all that and confidence and suddenly they're beatable whereas nobody thought they could beat Manchester City last season and suddenly everyone thought they could take a swing at Man City it's certainly true with Liverpool so do you think it's descended into that now where and Alison was saying this on Monday's show having been at the Brentford game that she was shocked by that that thing that you were talking about there or a confidence you know beyond just pure football it's this idea that both Liverpool themselves think Christ we're not as good as we were and the opposition it's got to be about more than pure football time because 11 players don't forget how to play football all of a sudden you know most salad doesn't forget how to play football and floor inverts doesn't become a bad footballer so there has got to be another quality as well as the way the team's set up and all of those sort of things there's got to be something else and i've always thought it's that idea of winning being a habit losing being a habit things that we regard as cliches about good teams finding a way to win, bad teams finding a way to lose it all seems very sort of glib or whatever but it is true because Man City are not a bad team Liverpool are not a bad team but something has been lost something was lost from City last season, something is lost from Liverpool this season.

4:50Yeah, it's... I don't think it's... I'm trying to word this the right way. Liverpool have been, for me, since the opening game of the season, Bournemouth at home, Newcastle. Liverpool conceded two goals plus nine times out of 15. That is not... Whatever data you want to look at, that's poor. That's poor. You can't win leagues conceding two goals plus. I would add in... And the old Terry Venables, as mine would know on this one, because Terry was very much five transfers and they all work. You can win the league. And if you get two right, you'll be on the relegation. If you get one right, you'll probably go down.

5:28All that sort of ideas around, you know, signings. They've come in. Now, if we were to go, right, who's worked? Kirk Esen? No, I don't think so. Eketike. Eketike, the only one, really. Isaac's done well. Isaac's not done well. So you're looking at, say, who else is coming? Verts. Verts has come in, struggled. Fring Pong. Yeah, Fring Pong. So the five, they're the main five. They had a new goalkeeper as well. They're the main five. One, we could say, as well, done okay. Probably better than okay. It's a bit unfair on Iketike. And then you compare that with the players that establish Mo Salah's performances, McAllister's performances, Canate's performances, Van Dijk's performances.

6:10You're like, wow. You cannot get results with established players and new signings into a football club, and it works. Is this then for you kind of full crisis now for Liverpool? We talked recently on the show about, you know, what stage is it at? Is this a blip? Can they turn this around? What do you think this at is in terms of terminology? Just on that, Tom, is like last night I sat down to watch the game, saw the line-up, and I thought, oh, that's a bit... When you're losing games, you've got to win one. You know we were talking about that winning mentality. This isn't the end of the season where you might be challenging on two fronts or three fronts and going, we've got to leave a few out here.

6:48We've got the big game at the weekend. We're fighting for the title. We're still deep in the Champions League. You're not even there. You're in the end of October. So to me, it was like, no, I don't know. I don't know if I'd want to leave players out this stage of the season. Thoughts on that, chaps? The idea that Slott should have picked a stronger team in this current state that they're in, Gregor? Yeah. I mean look in fairness the win in Europe didn't do anything to change their fortunes either so you know you think you've got a 5-1 victory in the Champions League you think oh okay maybe they've turned the corner and remembered how to win again didn't work no I'd say to that Gregor Eintracht Frankfurt are the perfect team for Liverpool to play if you've watched them I mean I've never seen a more ridiculous way of playing you look at their goals all their games goals for and against Eintracht Frankfurt are unbelievable they're either 5-1 up or they're losing 6-4 like they did in the season.

7:38Yeah, yeah, yeah. You know, for them, that was a perfect team for Liverpool to play. Now, I was just... I thought, when I started to watch it, after 10 minutes, I was like, there's no way they're beating Palace. And Palace did a mixed team. They also changed their formation, Liverpool, last night. Yeah. So Arnish Lutz gone with a different formation. The smallest back... Well, I say back four. It's not a back four. It's a back five, really. They were all small. All of them. They're not really centre-halves in there. and I look Joe Gomez was terrible last night so was Kerkers again so they're not scapegoats they just were really poor last night and you just felt once they'd gone behind there was no coming back for Liverpool we've gone away now from the the great goals that's what champions do you know get late goals in matches in 92 we've gone away from that now with Liverpool Martin on that just quickly on that idea that he should have picked a stronger team yeah look I think you need to change you, you need to change your luck, you need to change your form.

8:40And a stronger team might have done that. I mean, they picked a stronger team against Crystal Palace and what is it now? Is it four games? Three this season, isn't it? But wasn't it at the end of last season as well? Did Palace not get a result against them at the end of last season as well? So it's four games. So look, there's no guarantee that a 14th Liverpool team gets a result against Crystal Padres because they do seem to have a hold over them at the moment but at the same time I just I think maybe the manager should have given himself the best chance of breaking this breaking this sequence just on the idea Tony come back to the Frankfurt thing about teams they're playing against and styles they're facing and things you know didn't seem to be particularly enjoying Brentford's approach at the weekend and things as much as Alison said on Monday showed that Brentford with a better footballing team as well Liverpool have now got Aston Villa at home on Saturday night then Real Madrid at home and then away against Manchester City is there a kind of it's a tough run but is there in a way it almost might be better for them playing these teams in a strange way I saw a good stat the other day that Liverpool have faced more long balls than any other team in the Premier League this season so there is a strain of truth in the fact that teams are looking at the way Liverpool set up and the way I said this the other day for all that Liverpool started to try and grasp more control of games with the ball last season, they were still relentless without it.

10:08They still had... The beauty of last season was that sort of tweak in the way they played with the ball, but keeping a lot of what Jurgen Klopp had created in terms of the ferocity of their pressing and winning the ball back in the opponent's thirds. They had more high turnovers than any other team last season, leading to goals. So teams have looked at that and thought, probably we're not just going to play into their hands anymore. let's miss it out and also they started the season with one kind of one fewer midfielders one less midfielder as well so what you're saying is true that now they're playing Aston Villa then Real Madrid and you know these teams are probably not going to approach the game in the same way yeah the surprising thing against Brentford I mean Liverpool still for the two semifinals win a lot of aerial duels they do they do win a lot of them but the long throw is so I've been in this position, I used to defend long throws.

11:01My position on the pitch was to come back, be one of the main men to attack the ball. Right. Where about like near front post? Well, if I had a problem, I've got a guy as big as me and I think he might win it, I'd have someone on his toes in front of him. So you get in front of him, so it doesn't make it easier for him. So then I can try and come over the top of the header. Can I tell you six foot what? Five? Six foot four? Six foot five? Van Dijk, six foot four? Like they're the two that have to have the responsibility to attack the ball. And Brentford, as soon as they get it, they launch it and yeah, it's long throws and they end up getting the opening goal.

11:36Was it Utara, wasn't it, who got the first one, got on the end of it? But that's a really simplistic way of, you know, trying to avoid a problem by having your best head as the ball. Surely you can get data and go, where's he looking to throw? Where is he getting the distance of the ball? You stand there. Yeah, well that was the story. Alison said, didn't she, Gregor, on Monday that actually Slott said after games, all we did all week was work on the long throws and things and it wasn't quite looked like that. Listen, we've talked about Liverpool a lot on the show already this season and we will, so I don't want to dwell too much.

12:06But Martin, just coming back to the point you made about the comparison with Manchester City, do you think that that comparison with Liverpool this season will continue or do you think that this is a side where... Well, it will continue for as long as this one continues because I think Man City's in the end was 13 games, wasn't it? It was one win in 13 games. I think they're at what Liverpool now, one in seven competitions. Do you see them having a similar season? They're at the halfway stage of it. Do you see them having a similar season? Do we think they're going to be fourth in the league? They're trying.

12:42Now, their first part is to try to make sure they qualify for the Champions League. It's at that stage already. It's not at, can we win the title? It's right, first of all, can we get in the Champions League? I don't think Man City were. They were about it. On that run that Martin was talking about, I don't think Man City were as bad as what Liverpool had been. Really? I don't. I don't think that. I think Liverpool are far more beatable. Just look at the goals against Colm. So you think it's that defence that makes it? Earlier in the season, Tom, the best player for Liverpool was the goalkeeper.

13:13So it's not like they've taken two chances in one game. Alisson, before he got injured, was pulling save-off to save-off. I'm like, well, if you're talking about the goals going in and the ones he saved, I'm sorry, I think Liverpool have been absolute shambles. And I want Slott, as a fan of the club, I want Slott to say because I believe that he can turn it round. I'm not totally convinced, but I believe, because Liverpool fans generally are not a club that want to get their managers out that quickly. They're not. And I think he's okay for the moment, but he's got to show the quality to be able to turn the ship around.

13:51Really interesting. Liverpool fans do get in touch with your views tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk all the other results meaning that the quarter finals for the League Cup look like this Arsenal against Crystal Palace after that win for Oliver Glasner's side Cardiff will take on Chelsea Manchester City v Brentford and Newcastle v Fulham Chelsea is who I want to come to next a bonkers game against Wolves going through 4-3 another red card for Chelsea Liam De Lappe getting a second yellow card that means if you include Enzo Mareska's red at the end of the win against Liverpool. Six red cards in nine games for Chelsea now.

14:26Martin, Enzo Maresca said recently, I think it was after the Malogusto red card about a week ago, he was asked in a press conference, do you find players, do you discipline players? And he said, no, no, no, I'd leave it to the players. I let them decide these things. Might want to change his mind about that, might he? It's ridiculous. Look, first of all, I would take Maresca's sending off out of the six in nine because, one, it was a ridiculous sending off. He shouldn't have been booked in the first, but booked for celebrating a goal with his team. I mean, it was ludicrous. Having said that, five in nine is pretty bad.

15:02Still too many, yeah. And they're ridiculous sendings off. I mean, De Lapp's sending off last night was, it was just pathetic. And for a player who's just come back from injury, it was Nicholas Jackson-like. It really was. They've replaced, if that is what Leon De Lapp is going to and he was there was an incident in the Club World Cup where I think the same thing could have happened and didn't and if he's doing that well then there's no difference between him and Nicholas Jackson really because Nicholas Jackson scored a reasonable amount of goals he wasn't prolific but he scored a reasonable amount of goals but he kept getting himself sent off and he kept doing stupid things that last night was utterly stupid and one he's dead lucky it's not a straight red because he definitely does the guy and he means to do the guy as well.

15:52I'm not sure that's a straight red. No, I think it's absolutely a straight red and I think football, Gregor, has got an atrocious attitude to this. They're going to wait until someone actually has a bleed on the brain like Ian Hume did and nearly dies. This means like elbows and things. It's ridiculous. There's twaddle you get booked for and then if you stick that straight into someone's head, no one does anything. he gets a yellow car second yellow no that was a straight red last night he checks he checks where the fellow is he checks where he is you don't like don't you think I think like I think he went up to Bargham and then he kind of did that as an afterthought I see like I remember Martin would call him after Gio Pedro in fact yes for Brighton when he got away did that for Brighton and that was that was different in my view but that was when that was when he threw an elbow completely missed and didn't get anything yeah but that was a definite throw of an elbow I think this was like an afterthought and looking more broadly at them I agree, take Enzo Mureska I'd actually take out Chalaba against Brighton because I was at that game and it was a mistake that put him in an unenviable position to try and save I can't remember what it was going through Gomez went clean through and he tried to make a save and tackle and he was sent off Sanchez also was because of an error and he rushed out it was a rush of blood to the head I don't think he's good enough either I'd pretty much take that out but there's three there's Gio Pedro against Benfica Gusto against Nottingham Forest other week and De Lape they're all set two bookings and pretty stupid bookings as well like does that equate to a problem like would you not want as a manager to stand that because Chelsea are having a kind of up and down such an inconsistent season he said Mariska said Mariska said I said four or five times to him stay calm stay calm but then he's not So do you not then climb down on it?

17:45Yeah, the problem Chelsea have is they've got a team full of 21 and 22 year olds. Yeah. They've not done this before. He made this mistake. He might not make it again. You hope he doesn't make it again. But they're making their first mistakes because they're young. So like Chelsea's problem always comes back to the same thing. It's only the manager telling them that. Is there anyone else on the pitch? Like someone who's been around and maybe been sent off and have been in that position saying, Oi, don't get sent off. Yeah. No. I did get sent off. Yeah, yeah. We'll come on to it. You'll come on to your discretions in a minute.

18:16But what about that idea, the difference of opinion between the guys on whether Enzo Maresco has an issue to deal with here and whether he should be getting involved with his younger players a bit more to guide them, lead them? Yeah, the first challenge, I didn't have a problem with a yellow card at all. The second one, I think Martin and Greg have both got a point to a degree because I've been in that situation myself and I've looked for the defender. and you sometimes naturally as a centre forward, especially when you're young, you feel like you've been out, you've not made your mark at Chelsea, you've been injured and then suddenly you're coming back in.

18:52You get way too, it doesn't matter what people say to you. You go in one ear and out the other. And obviously Mareska knows that. Now, hopefully you'll learn that keeping your elbows down is part of the game now. You can't play 1980s football. You can't, can you? You just can't do that anymore. so I hope it's a learning curve for him I didn't really have a problem with him getting red card and if it had been kept on for that moment I would have gone well yeah it's daft what he's did but was it as you know it's one of them for me I mean I had loads of elbows in faces and you know different different game that you played that time it was no I'm not making a joke Gregor knows this as well sometimes you I mean I lost my two front teeth I played they look great now Yeah, no, I've had a good gun.

19:40I broke my nose three times, both with elbows. And like Martin said, I look back and I think I was lucky. Because there are serious injuries that do happen. Ben Thatcher, when Ben Thatcher did the boy... Mendez, yeah. Yeah, Mendez. Portsmouth, yeah. Yeah, you know, when that, we were like, wow. Who knocked your teeth out and did they pay for your new ones? No, the worst one about my teeth was that, it's called Le Trevour in France, where it's the break, the winter break. And I was going to the Dominican Republic the day after. And one minute before the end of the game, I've gone for a diving header and the defender's seen me and he's just gone whack.

20:18And I've run straight on to it and literally in hospital that night, told I can't go away because obviously the inflammation from my nose had been smashed to pieces. And spent three weeks, come back to England, looked like a man. I did have black eyes. My sister's friend saw me in blue water and she said to me, what has happened to you? I was like, I just big, big, and my eyes were, and I went, she went, I thought you'd been beaten up badly. Yeah. And I looked like I'd been beaten up badly. Can you remember who the player was? No, I can't remember. It was a, it was a, Didn't see him coming, did you?

20:58I don't see, I don't remember his name. Didn't see him coming. But I remember, I remember how I felt and not going to an holiday and then coming back and England and all that. Another thing from your playing days and for Gregor as well, we're talking about the idea of Enzo Morescu fining his players and disciplining his players. Does that work? Did that work in your career? If you'd have got... Let Gregor go first. Did you get fined? Did that work? Would that work? Would that make you stop doing anything? Or is it just a bit of a PR exercise? I don't think so. I think they'll know they've done wrong.

21:26And there are different approaches to these things. I remember reading... Johnny did an interview with Nuno when he was at Wolves and he was saying the thing about players being late and he would just instead of punishing them or fining them he would wait he would wait by the side of the training pitch and everyone would just be waiting and when you run in he'd be like okay we're ready to start now and imagine you'd be like oof it's going for shame well yeah so like you've got to make it clear that you're letting your teammates down and I'm sure actually the teammates themselves should be saying that as well but again it comes back to the fact that they're all kids so I'm not sure so it probably is there probably is a bit more responsibility for Maresca to actually say look you're letting your teammates down we're suffering because of your stupidity.

22:07Did you get any fines in your career? Yeah, I did. I got one. Well, I had a couple, but fortunately for us at the time, John Docky, the Millwall manager, would fine you and say, I'll let it out there that you've been fine, but you won't be part of the fine. So it was just a bit of a PR management in the dressing room. But on the time thing, it's really weird our two managers, because I'm going to talk about Glenn Noddle and Jackie Charlton. Glenn Noddle would stand by the door, a bit like we were saying Gregor was saying about Nuno by the door when you're having a meeting and he'd be like that what looking at his watch looking at his watch and it'd be and then someone come in 30 seconds later he'd be going and it'd be one or two what time do you call this yeah yeah just all like and he'd be sit down Jack Cholton you'd have 12 o 'clock meeting two minutes past people would walk in and Jack would just go sit down get in the back wouldn't even mention it really and it was like really weird because I remember thinking I used to go with Glenn Oddle obviously I was with Glen Underwood Club and Jack Charlton with International and Jack would be not bothered at all I mean if it was a time of being really late he'd say something but generally he'd just say to you get a seat at the back he didn't even mention it different personality now players don't play yeah yeah exactly that'll make you do it that'll surely make you exactly who got left behind was it Jose Marino the coach when oh yeah I remember who it was, but he was late for the coach coming back from a match or whatever.

23:40And Jose just told the coach to go. Thomas Frank dropped the sumo. Yeah, Pazuma. So, I mean, it does work. Listen, it's not all... You have to, as a player, you just have to respect it. If that gaffer's like that, then, you know, but there aren't... If you're continually being late, then it's a problem. Yeah, yeah. Well, you're always on time for this podcast. Like you are, Tom, for this. We don't fine you, Tom, do we? You could if you want. Do the Doherty war, though, just for a bit of PR. Yeah, we'll all get fined, says producer Neil, for being too late and never on time. We want to talk about Wolves also from this game as well.

24:18We're talking about young players at Chelsea. Martin, the subject of your column earlier this week was headlined, the dearth of local lads is why Wolves are so disconnected, which is an aspect of the Wolves' current crisis, if you like, which I'd not thought about. So tell us a bit more about what you'd thought. Well, actually, it was a couple of paragraphs in Bill Edgar's piece on Monday morning which said that it is very likely that Wolves will become this season the first team in the top flight ever to go a whole season without fielding an English outfield player. I mean, their goalkeeper, Sam Johnston.

25:00But they've got one English outfield player in their Premier League squad. It's a kid called Batches Mane. He's actually born in Portugal. But he was over here. I think he came over at the age of nine or ten, lived in Manchester. So he plays for England's under-17. The fact that the country of his birth is Portugal, we can all debate exactly the Englishness of everything but he is the only one that qualifies as English and I just looked at that and thought and it's just about disconnection because there were murders at Wolves at the weekend because they got beat by Burnley at home and you just look at it and I know there's other problems at Wolves I know there's problems about investment the ball's not popular and the manager now and all of this But you just looked at that and thought, what is there if you're a Wolverhampton person, if Wolves is your team or whatever, there's not a single person in that squad that is connected to you, to your area, to Wolverhampton itself.

26:14There's a lack of connection. And that's fine when it's going all right. It's absolutely fine. And it's the same sort of point about West Ham and the London Stadium. London Stadium's no problem at all when they're doing all right in Europe, when they're beating Chelsea or they're beating Tottenham there. London Stadium's no problem at all. The minute it's no good, everyone hates the stadium. The minute it's no good at Wolves is what I'm talking about. I'm not talking about English players are better than foreign players. No, no, no. They're not. I'm not talking about quotas. I don't believe in quotas.

26:46if you want to play, if you want 25 form players, great. Good luck to you. It's up to you. But be prepared for if it doesn't go well, suddenly there's nothing there for anyone to really... To latch on to. To latch on to and go, this guy's one of them. Let's cheer the kids on. The kid, Ollie Sculls, at West Ham, is coming to the team this season. It's fair to say he's not playing well. He's the full-back. He's the full-back who's playing on the opposite side. He's playing an inverted full-back role. Everyone feels sorry for him. He's walked into a team at the wrong time. He's walked into a team at the wrong time.

27:23He's now playing out of position. He's not playing well at all. No one's saying a bad word about him simply because, well, he's a local lad. They feel sorry for him. They feel sorry for him. They want him to do well. They want him to do well. Whereas if he'd have been, you know, another signing from abroad or whatever, and he's playing there, it would be that guy. He's as useless. The senior fellow is absolutely hopeless. You know, whereas it's a different attitude. George Graham said at Arsenal that the smartest thing that he did was Roecastle, Mickey Thomas, Paul Davis, Paul Merson, getting them in early because it brought him time with the fans.

28:00Because every fan likes to see a young player. Every fan likes the idea that he can say to his mate, I saw him when he made his day, I told you he was a good player. He's one of our own. He's one of our own. Well, that Wolves, they sing their none of our own, don't they? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. There's a new song for him, I don't see it. He's in a joke. None of our own. Absolutely. But to Martin, you've both been in dressing rooms across the country. Absolutely. Well, what I would say, the six years I had abroad and been in England, so many dressing rooms, the dynamic of how they worked was from people local.

28:39And I had experience there. Marseille as well, where there was a number of Marseille players who were brought in to the club that were local lads who had come through the system, but they drove the dressing room as well. And likewise at Nancy. It was no different. The boys that were ball-round, they would firmly, they always would say something. Because you also understand the locals, because a lot of them, you'd meet the locals going round in town, you'd be talking to them. So it does matter. is it the be all and end all like we just said if you've got a fantastic team no one cares when you're winning but when you're losing it's like you need them Yeah no I've spoken about this for a long time I've spoken about it with Chelsea I think it's sad that they just generate money to spend on other players by selling all their homegrown talents I got into the Nottingham Forest team when it was a difficult time and there were loads of us from the academy there was like Michael Dawson Wes Morgan Andy Reid people had been there for like come through since 16 or whatever and that probably did buy us a bit of leeway and a bit of sort of get out of the nice dressing room yeah but also also the fans like although we were having a tough time on the pitch they were like you're willing to give them a bit more leeway because they're young lads that they want to do well it's exactly what Martin's saying so I've spoken about it for a long time I think it's a hugely undervalued part of football the connection that having people in your team that have been at the club for a long time and were like products of your academy it doesn't always have to be that but I've been there since they were young it's hugely undervalued let's face it the Lisbon Lions was the most extreme of the other way the Lisbon Lions wasn't it Gregor?

30:17yeah and we're not harking back to those days they're gone but no there was a reason having that unity within a group you know there are other teams even years after that that were a lot of West Ham's 1965 European Cup with the Cup team Man City the Man City team that won I think it's the Cup Winners' Cup. That's a very local team as well. And it's not saying that it makes it better or whatever. We all know that the best Wolves team didn't have a bloke from Wolverhampton in it, I don't think, really. The best Wolves team recently. Not the best Wolves team. That was full of them. But the best Wolves team of recent years was this Portuguese enclave.

31:02That's what got them. I should say that's what got them to the Premier League. Whatever you think about that, that's what got them there and kept them there. But it's not about when things are going well. When things are going well, it doesn't matter where everyone comes from. When they're going badly, it's that little bit of, you know, the connection with the local. What Tony was saying there about the local players driving the dressing room at Nancy at Marseille, that's exactly what Barry Vanison said about, I quoted it in the column about the new Kevin Keegan era Newcastle that obviously everyone you know and all of that he said but that dressing room was driven by Lee Clark Steve Howie I know Steve Howie's a Sunderman but Lee Clark Steve Howie Gary Spade there at No, Elliot, Robbie Elliot, Steve Watson.

31:59Steve Watson. Steve Watson. You know, it was the fellows from the North East that drove the dressing room, according to Barry Fennison. Yeah, really interesting look at the Wolves' situation. Loads more still to come on the show now. I mentioned a few weeks ago, as well as this great podcast from The Times, we also produce loads of other brilliant exclusive investigations and the latest one out now, The Poppy Day Bomb, is superb. It's out now. I'm on episode four and I promise you if you check it out you will not be disappointed. And this weekend the Rugby Autumn Internationals kick-off and the Ruck podcast, the other podcast from the Sports Desk at the Times, will give you the best analysis throughout November.

32:35So make sure you check that out too. It's time for a little break so it's time for a question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz. No Arsenal player has recorded an away hat-trick in the Premier League for nearly nine years. Who was the last player to do so, scoring three times in the last 20 minutes to help the team to a 5-1 win against West Ham in December 2016? Find out after the break.

33:08Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino. Listeners, we've got a different quiz answerer today. Gregor Robertson technically went first and got it wrong. But thank God Tony Cascarino was here with the answer to the quiz question, which was... Sanchez. Alexis Sanchez. Alexis Sanchez. Alexis Sanchez. That's right, the last player to score an away hat-trick for Arsenal against West Ham. They played Burnley this weekend, another test for Mikel Arteta's side to see if he can keep going with those wins. Maybe it'll be another 1-0.

33:40chaps we want to talk about Celtic Gregor this is your team Tony you played for them well I was there yeah you wouldn't even call it playing would you that's what some of the fans might say Gregor's the man for this one but I mean it's been a remarkable week Brendan Rodgers resigning they're followed by major shareholder Dermot Desmond with a quite frankly astonishing attack on a manager who he's worked with for a long long time calling Rodgers divisive self-serving this was all on Monday night and then in walks Martin O 'Neill. Get the old gang back together. He looked more surprised than anyone.

34:15As he's then been telling everyone throughout the week about how surprised he was to get the phone call but how quickly he jumped at the chance. I bet you did, absolutely. It's a remarkable situation that's happening in Scotland in football this season already. Rangers, of course, with Russell Martin being sacked. Long pursuit for a new manager. You've got hearts barging their way in at the top of the table. But Gregor, just kind of sum up what's going on at Celtic. Good luck. You've got two minutes, your time starts now. Brendan Rodgers' return was slightly divisive in the first place, but he was successful again.

34:52And then, as was the case in his first spell, he started to chip away at this idea of the club not matching his ambitions. He wanted a bit more backing in the transfer market. Celtic, actually, if you look at them historically, I've done pretty well recruitment wise but it's gone off the boil in the last 12 to 18 months players like Trusty from Sheffield United not really worked out at all it's not been good in terms of recruitment and they lost some of their best players in the summer didn't they? Fiora Hashi and a few others yes so Rodgers has been pretty touchy in the media and he said there was one line he said if you give me a Honda Civic he can't expect me to drive it like a Ferrari which kind of threw his players under the bus a bit as well and clearly Dermot Desmond has taken an enormous exception to this and this is someone who you never hear from, he's been Celtic's biggest shareholder for 30 years since 1995 and he never ever makes any public statements or gives any interviews, he doesn't turn up to the AGM he He basically controls the club.

36:07He's the guy who gives the thumbs up or the thumbs down to appointments. But he never, ever, never, ever does anything like this. So clearly he's been enormously angered by what he sees as kind of duplicitous behaviour by Brendan Rodgers. And, you know, he's saying that he had the sign off and, you know, they had conversations about every player, that he was completely on board with everything that they had a sit down for three hours in his house not so long ago to kind of iron over a few issues and then he still comes out in the media and says things like this. So it's been pretty extraordinary and it's also extraordinary that it's played out so much in public.

36:50And there's been a lot of toxicity at Celtic for a good while now in terms of this feeling that the boards have been in situ for so long and it's all gone a bit stale and need some life and some sort of new energy and vision there. And they had a very, very good manager in Brendan Rodgers. But I also, I've always like, I feel like this is a situation where you could say both things are true, John. It's been a while since you've said that, actually. I'm glad you brought it back. Because as much as Brendan Rodgers wants the club to back him and as much as it's true that, you know, nowadays when you look at a club that's got£80 million sitting in the bank, fans are entitled to go, could we not put some more of that on the pitch Celtic are in an almost unique position although it's getting more common in Europe because of the sort of financial disparity caused by clubs who get into Europe essentially but Celtic have hugely more resources than anyone in the league and they should walk the league and they have done for what is it like 13 of the last 14 seasons something like that and then they go and try and compete in Europe which is really the barometer of their success now and they're a minnow now they're not in stature They're not in history They're not in so many Ways of measuring Like the size And Potential of a club But They are in terms of What they're actually Like how much You know They're signing players For 8-12 million That's a big signing Yeah For Celtic That's nothing I mean you're competing Against teams like PSG and Bayern Munich And Even teams in the Premier League So Like in the last 15-20 years Since Martin O 'Neill's Last spell actually Yeah The the landscape has shifted enormously and like it's a difficult position for anyone running Celtic to try and compete and have success on both those fronts that was it was longer than two minutes guys but that was a good summary I thought really spot on spot on well done who needs Google AI I mean there'll be a lot of Celtic fans listening and will say no bugger that like we need a new board sack the board really interesting absolutely there's a lot of opinion we've like given despite everything Brendan Rodgers last time he left there was a banner saying you swapped immortality for mediocrity, something like that they weren't happy but their opinion shifted a bit and where there is sympathy there is a lot of sympathy for Brendan Rodgers within the fan base now.

39:14Martin, just on the topic of how extraordinary this is, that's the word Gregor used in terms of Desmond and the outspoken nature of it and the public nature of it, I was going to say in modern football but at any time in football it's not often that this plays out in this manner, is it? No, no, no, no. You don't get... Well, as Gregor said, he's not an outspoken man, Desmond, you know, Dermot Desmond. And that whole sort of Irish, we had a Cornwall stud and all of those guys. If you remember the sort of Cornwall stud takedown of Alex Ferguson, it wasn't done with dramatic statements from John Magna or McManus.

39:58or anything like that. It was done in a very, very sort of measured way, behind the scenes, questions at board meetings, things like that, when there was that schism at Manchester United. So it's not their style at all to suddenly come out and do what Desmond did. And really, it's not the style of many owners in this country. The outspoken chairman is very much a sort of Italian and French and Spanish. You know, you always get these sort of maverick-type fellas, you know. Club presidents. Yeah, presidents that come out and say diabolical things about the manager or whatever. I mean, it's great fun, isn't it, as journalists?

40:46Yeah, I'm not knocking it. We should petition for this to happen all the time. I'm not knocking it. When a manager leaves, each manager and owner get side by side, round a table, ding dong, off you go. You present your argument. Maranakis has definitely got the potential for it, I would say. But he won't be, you know, when you speak to people in football, he will not be the first club owner to feel that way about Brendan. I mean, you know, there's a lot of people. Isn't that more scathing though, Martin? But there's a lot of people at Leicester, people at Liverpool, that thought that Brendan played politics in the way that people at Newcastle, people at Liverpool thought that Rafa Benitez plays politics.

41:29You know, there's a few managers. You know, you think of Daniel Levy. You know, Daniel Levy had a succession of managers that were pretty much attacking him in press conferences about investment and about what they're never ever said. There's no bite back against Pochettino, against Mourinho, against Conte in particular. There's no bite back at all. It's not the way it's usually done. The managers almost get a free hit. So it's quite interesting. Go on, Tim. I was going to say, how do we look at Brendan in this? Because I don't know Brendan. I've never met Brendan. But I've always felt from the outside it is self-interest.

42:13all the time for him. I've always felt that. Now, can you argue that he's done a great job? No, he's done a great job at Celtic twice. He's done a decent job at Leicester. So he's obviously a very good manager, but he would upset people upstairs because... And when you say something like, you know, Honda Civic as your players, what do you think they think of you? They'd be older than me. Why would you think that? Well, first of all, I think it's unnecessary to, you know, undermine your players. even though you might not privately, you might go, I don't fancy him or he's not. You might do that with your coaching staff.

42:49But to openly call his players, like Honda Civic and then try and drive a Ferrari, to me it's like, that wouldn't go down well in your dressing room. So it hasn't gone down well in your dressing room. It hasn't gone down well upstairs either. No. And he hasn't cared about that. He hasn't thought about that line. And the thing is, with it not going down well upstairs, these are different times. Now it's social media, it's phone-ins, it's talk shows, it's podcasts. It's all of this. A lot of these guys aren't used to it, by the way. You know, they're on businesses. You know, you don't get that. I mean, you know, if your shares aren't performing particularly well, no one knows about it, really, apart from a few shareholders.

43:34How do you two see? I mean, all of us. How do you see Brendan in all these guys? Well, I was going to say, does he get another job now? well he'll get another job in the Premier League this season the thing that's interesting is he's almost compelled to respond to this if he stays silent in this he's probably reputationally quite damaging you're going to have to well he's burning bridges there for sure he's going to have to put his side across one other point is that a lot of fans are thinking why Dermot Desmond I think he's got 30 % this year how can he you say club owners he's not actually the club owner so why is he So why after 30 years is he using the club's platform to write a state of 551 word statement?

44:22This sort of caustic is pretty remarkable. Just quickly, Gregor, is there any element of this as well about the state of the table at the minute? Because currently you have Hearts top of the SPL table on 26 points, six points ahead of Celtic. They beat them at the weekend. Is that creeping in as well, that the established order is being upset? it's early days but it looks like it might be upset this season look of course yeah I mean it's been a bad start they went out and didn't qualify for the Champions League like that as I say that is always the kind of barometer it's like you got to get in there and then you got to not at the moment it's just not embarrassing yourself we had that run to play we had a run a couple of years ago under Brendan Rodgers which was actually not bad but a lot of it has been quite embarrassing that's why I'm saying it's such a The heart thing is embarrassing, isn't it?

45:12I mean, you've had 13 out of 14 years of domination. A bloke's turned up from Brighton and gone, have a look at this spreadsheet that some of the lads in the back office have knocked up. And next thing you know, you're winning the league by six points and Celtic are nowhere. I mean, if you were Celtic, you'd be, gee whiz, we're not looking good here, lads. In terms of the manager then, just quickly on Martin O 'Neill being back at Celtic, again, another remarkable aspect, a remarkable story. they've got Rangers in the cup on Sunday followed by Midgerland in Europa League next week I mean is there a world in which he wins those two games and Martin O 'Neill gets the job maybe a homecoming an Ole Gunnar Solskjaer he says no but interim well the longer it goes the thing is you look at the names being linked and I I had this conversation with one or two friends back home someone texted me the other day saying what do you think Kieran McKenna I was like yeah Kieran McKenna is great but I don't think he's going to go to Celtic no chance to go in there well that's the other The financial package That Ipswich put to Kieran McKenna Was to keep him As a Premier League Elite manager It's also unfortunately And it pains me to say it It's also going To be the manager In the Scottish Premiership Instead of The Championship We have a route back Into the Premier League So if you look at that Then you look at Robbie Keane I mean That's a punt That's why Brendan Rodgers Was like You know he was a I think he's an elite level coach she's competed at the top end of the Premier League with you know well if your chairman accepts or an owner accepts certain things will be said but you're on the field you're doing really well most of them would take it so yeah so what I'm saying is it's going to be difficult to make the next appointment so the longer Martin O 'Neill has to kind of keep churning along and getting victories then the more the club might feel it's okay to leave it as it is very interesting Celtic fans if you've got any views that echo some of the points the guys have made do get in touch with me Tom.Clark at the Times times.co.uk.

47:06We'll return to the Premier League to finish our show today. I wanted to talk about Tottenham. Gregor, we had a few listeners, by the way, get in touch on Monday, upset that we hadn't mentioned their 3-0 win against Everton, which did put them in third in the Premier League. And Martin, in your column on Tuesday, the final item was about that position in the table and Thomas Frank's view on it. And I'm going to read what Martin said, because it was just one of his funny little pity items on the end of the column. Tottenham sit third in the league after becoming the first away winners at Everton's new stadium.

47:35So of course the head coach, Thomas Frank, immediately plays down their chances of title contention. No, there are a few teams ahead of us, he said when asked. No, there are two. One is Bournemouth and the other you play next month. Beat Arsenal and the gap could be two points with more than half of the season remaining. Why does everyone talk like this? What is the harm in Frank saying he'll give it a crack? Nothing bullish, nothing too boastful, just that Tottenham are up there and have some very good players. So let's see what they can do. And by the way, the same even applies to Bournemouth and Sunderland.

48:04It's one hell of a long shot, but at least let's have fun with it. So I want to come back to that question, Martin, that you posed in there. Why does everyone talk about this? No, I don't know. I don't know. I've always... One of my core beliefs is that this sport is for the amusement of the working class. We can talk brands and this and that, but it is for the amusement of the working class. Have some fun with it. Don't keep playing stuff down. If you're up there, you don't have to say we're going to win the league. No one's saying that. I'm not convinced they finish top four, by the way. I'm not convinced they're finishing the Champions League.

48:38Let them win the league. But if you're third in the league, don't try and kill it before you... I never understood that Enzo Muesca gave the title to Liverpool. At Christmas last year? No, he gave it to them about a month ago. Now they can't win a game. He'd already given them the title. It was going to be really hard for us to catch Liverpool. He did. He did also do it. Four games. He's been there four games. Maresca also did it, and you made this point on the podcast last season, when they were scoring for fun before Christmas, and we were going, can they? And he was like, no, no, no. No, possibly.

49:14He was right. Well, no, and then it all fell apart. Everyone goes, oh, I see, he was clever. And you go, well, not really, was he? Because he's given people an excuse to fail. That's what I don't... That's the other thing I don't understand. Why would you give your players? why would you give your players an excuse to not challenge for the time we're not the same is it our fault by the way, I've been thinking about this question since I read your column and discussing is it a wee to blame? The media the journalists out there, if Thomas Frank you know, Tom Allnut is our reporter who's going to go to the press conference on Friday I'm editing tomorrow, if Tom Allnut rings in and says Thomas Frank said we're going to we can win the league, I'm going to go oh my god that's amazing that's a good story that's a great story we'll have 400 words quick as you can we'll bang it at the top of the website get that on social media Thomas Frank says Tottenham are going to win the league I'm wondering is it my fault and I ruined it but no no you haven't because if the story you wanted him to write on the back of it is this gargantuan pillock says Tottenham are going to win the league and they're useless well then you know Thomas Frank would have every right to turn around and say well there's no point in me you know talking about this then you're just going to Ange said we're going to try or we should dream but I don't know how much I don't know personally how much impact it actually has I totally take your point that it's also not true it's disingenuous, it's not true of course you're going to try you're going to try your best to finish as high in the league as possible but I think even when you come out and say yeah we're going to try I don't think anyone, I think the people there will go, are you sure, Thomas?

50:58But that's what I mean. Are you sure? There's an element of, you know, you enter the season, right? I've been promoted four times in my career. And you enter the season and you didn't think, can we do it? When I first did it with Millwall, going back a good number of years ago, I remember thinking, cool, we're getting going now. We're doing well. And then suddenly, you know, I immediately, as we're talking, I'm thinking of Leicester. you know Leicester start that 16th season where there was not even a thought of winning the Premier League but things started developing when they beat Chelsea I think it was in November when Jose lost his job it was like hold it a minute then they beat Liverpool in December still they're not favourites and no one's going to say they're going to win the league you know but this in I think within the group you suddenly get this belief and Vardy's playing brilliantly and then you've got I don't know Angola, Kanti and drink water in midfield and Mahrez on the wing and everything's going for them and suddenly by January I felt Leicester really I remember doing a dinner upstairs with Alison Rudd we were talking and I said on that I said I really think the Leicester players think they've got a chance now they've really got this so do you know he said when they beat Man City in February that's when he knew they could win right yeah in fairness he said they couldn't all the way yes but is that last game is that going along and as you're going through the gears and the amount of games you're playing Tottenham are a club that were invited to join the Super League it's a bit unfair but what I mean is you can word it can't you you can word it in a way and this season as well on Monday's show we were basically handing Arsenal the title and saying it's theirs to lose and stuff because you look at we're saying on this show Liverpool Chelsea etc so your point would also be Come on, lads, give us a title race, will you?

52:51Absolutely. And this has been going on for a while. If you have time, I'll tell you the story about the specialist in failure. So Chelsea, when Jose... Well, Jose's press conference on a Friday, Arsenal's press conference used to go before Chelsea's. Right. They always used to watch Arsene Wenger's press conference, always used to tune in to Sky. As in the Chelsea staff? Yeah. Right. But Jose, Steve Atkins, who was the head of media there, would always sit down and watch Arsene Wenger's press conference just in case there was anything because of this rivalry between the two. And so Steve said that Jose had this phrase, low profile.

53:35If there was nothing really going out, it would still be low profile. As in before the press conference, he'd say. Yeah, going into the press conference, low profile, won't say anything. so Arsene Wenger does his press conference gets asked, Brendan Rodgers Liverpool are flying at that stage Brendan Rodgers have been asked about whether they're title contenders and they've completely played it down then Arsene Wenger gets asked about who's title contenders and Arsene Wenger says I think sometimes with managers they're so scared of being thought of as failures that they never talk positively about their team.

54:16They never talk positively about their chances because they're worried that if they come short, then people are going to call them a failure. So they're watching this at Chelsea and so Steve says to Jose, he's talking about Brendan there, isn't he? So Jose goes, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. He said, it's not about you. He said, no, it's not about us. No, it's not about you. No, it's not about us. he said nothing low profile nothing to worry about there so Jose goes yeah yeah low profile low profile going to the press conference first question of the press conference is Arsene Wenger has talked about managers playing down their chances you know because they're worried about being thought of as failures you know what do you think of that Jose that's when Marino turns around to failure he would know about failure He is a specialist in failure.

55:12Steve said, I'm sitting there, I'm like looking at him. Like, what are you doing? This is not our fight. This is not our war to get involved in, you know. Journalists in the room rubbing their hands together going, get in, absolutely brilliant. But I mean, well, let's talk about finally then what we think of Tottenham this season then. Because we didn't mention them on Monday's show. No chance. Joking. I'm joking. I'm not I'm not really Beaten in the cup Last night Against Newcastle Which again An opportunity For a trophy Gone already Third in the league As you say Martin Quite rightly Pointing that out That they've got Arsenal In the coming weeks What are we thinking About Thomas Frank's Early start at Tottenham And what kind of team He's putting together Up and down isn't it It's an up and down team At the moment You know They've lost a couple Of Bournemouth Have beaten them Against that They've got a man City They've gone to Man City and won.

56:13There's a team there, isn't there? Yeah. There is a team there. There's no doubt about that. They've had a couple of significant injuries, haven't they? Madison, Solanke. Kuroszewski. Kuroszewski, yeah. The interest is what they do in the January window. You think they need more? Yeah, of course they do. Where? Well, he likes to play the two in midfield, doesn't he? He's got Paul Hineira and... Ben Tucker. So your Ben 10 Corny will play Sar in there. I think I'm not quite sure. The new ones that Mattis Tell that's come in, he's done okay. I'm not quite sure. Xavi Simmonds, yeah. Yeah, there is...

56:49Kudus has been a great signing, obviously. Yeah, Kudus is a player. But they just generally need more. More creativity, you mean? Well, Kudus is the main one. But then Bergvail can do the creativity as well. He's a decent footballer. I just think he'd like a bit more bolstered squad to challenge in and fight for the shirt. and with that I mean look Romero's been injured as well and he's a big one for them alongside Van Der Ven I think Tottenham need a bit more but it'd be interesting a bit more to get Champions League or do we think they're close to Champions League in my opinion because they're very capital he's very good at setting up teams Thomas Frank you know and it's a big challenge we go back to what Tottenham were last year and what they are this year you can see they're a harder team to play against they just are they just look a bit clunky to me particularly in forward areas and sometimes you watch them and you think you're not entirely Well the centre forwards are one Gregor isn't it?

57:43I just mean more the team as a whole if you look at Thomas Frank last season at Brentford you knew he would approach games differently sometimes he would they'd go full high court press sometimes he'd sit back and try and play on the break and he's kind of trying to do the same things first but it doesn't seem quite as natural a fit and I think actually ultimately who the opposition is is very important for them and that seems like an obvious thing to say but it dictates how he approaches games a lot of the time so they beat Man City because they were a team that came out but tried to play against them and they were brave they played really high at the pitch it's fascinating watching them I was at the Villa game the other week and you watch Van de Ven stepping out from centre half following all the way in like number 10 or like right deep into the opposition's half if we've got the ball in the corner like when they commit to that it's really exciting but then there's other games we look like they're a bit in between and it's not as I say I think the main thing is when they've got the ball you're not seeing any like any real attacking patterns or anything that's not trying to draw in the opposition and going behind scoring goals from set pieces is going to be a massive plus for them because we've already seen them get enough goals you know from the Thomas Frank this season at Spurs they're definitely going to get goals on a regular basis yeah interesting and a big home game for them against Chelsea at the weekend loads of other fixtures as well but we'll leave it there Tony Cascarino Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson Thank you very much for joining me.

59:06Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday to talk about those big matches. We'll see you then.