Liam Rosenior gone, could Eddie Howe be next?

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1:06Hello and welcome to The Game football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Managerial sackings, changes in the boardroom, star players looking at the exit and there are new Premier League leaders too. Just a normal couple of days by the standards of this football season. On today's show we'll discuss Chelsea's sacking of Liam Rossinia, Karen Brady's departure from West Ham, Anthony Gordon's links with Bayern Munich and the top and bottom of the Premier League table. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel. The former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual and we'll hear from our Northern Sports correspondent Martin Hardy a little later on.

1:42How are we team? Very good Tom. Happy with the shirt today Martin? Happy with the shirt and I'm happy with the imp. No. The imp looks half asleep. Is that me? Has it always got that sort of hooded eye thing going on? Yeah, it's going to end up being a little bit menacing you see. But it's not menacing, it looks like it's half dead. Yeah, well maybe. Quite like Lincoln City a lot of times during their history. Yeah, yeah, yeah. He looks far too docile to me. Far too docile. That's an intro as well. far too docile docile imps I didn't think that's where we'd go to on the start of this show because we've got loads and loads to discuss so let's get stuck straight in to Chelsea there has to be start with Chelsea it has to despite Manchester City going top of the well quite Martin your headline on your comment piece about the situation kind of making bringing it home really to the situation at Chelsea after Liam Rossini's sacking at what point do the five stooges carry the can for Chelsea's mess and it is a mess isn't it 106 days of a time in charge for Liam Rossini and sacked five stiff eats on the spin.

2:39It didn't look good. It didn't look good after the game against Brighton and the comments, but that word mess probably does sum it up. If anything, underplays it a little bit. Yeah, it didn't look good from the start. From the very start, you looked at that and I can understand multi-club ownership. He was the manager of Strasbourg. They liked what they saw of him at Strasbourg. But the idea that you could just walk into Chelsea which is a club, it's a very very difficult club to manage Enzo Mureska didn't find it easy at all he made a success of it yeah it's a mess and they got these never ending queue of directors of football directors of recruitment, heads of strategy and this and that and you just look at it and think what are they doing because the squad itself, the team itself is sort of in balance it's quite callow there's no real leaders there there's no real character there right from the very start there was all sorts of things I mean the week that was senior took over and didn't take the Fulham job I was looking at that thinking no that's not right he should be in charge everyone's known he's coming in for four or five days you can watch a few videos go in, roll up your sleeves, get your hands dirty be part of it Instead, there was just too much of it that seemed performative to me.

4:07You know, the respect the ball stuff, which comes from this sort of guru-type motivator that they've got on. And, you know, I'll be respecting the ball. And it was all soundbites and nonsense. And you could tell it was going wrong from the start. Do you think it was right to sack him then? Because obviously you're quite right to pick out the board members and David Fallows, Joe Shields, Paul Winstanley, Laurence Stewart and Sam Jewell are the people that are picked out in the kind of picture display for your headline in terms of the people they're talking about when it comes to the five stooges.

4:44But do you think they were right to sack the manager given the performances on the pitch, given what we saw in the defeat against Brighton and his comments afterwards? Yeah, well look, what I think is that I couldn't see where their next win comes from. Looking at that performance against Brighton, I wrote two things in that comment piece. One, that's the worst performance I've seen anyone put in on a level with Wolves towards the start of the season, on Tottenham in some of their lowest points of the season, West Ham at Wolves on January the 3rd, which is as bad as I've seen anyone be. But that was up there.

5:20That was up there. And I can't see where they were going. And the other thing is that you generally look at this Chelsea team and think, well, you carry on like that, you're Tottenham next year. You're the club that no one thinks could go down. It can't happen to them. It can't possibly happen to them. It's never going to get as bad as that. They've got World Cup winners. They've got European Championship winners. And suddenly, six months into the season, you're looking at them thinking, they're in a relegation fight. It was that bad. Yeah, so in that sense, Greg, I'm bringing you in here. In that sense, it was the kind of right decision.

5:55but before we get into the bigger picture of Chelsea do you agree that Liam Rossini, not many games to go European football on the line an FA Cup semi-final this weekend against a Leeds team that are in very good form the right decision to change a manager? Well, they've put in place Callum McFarlane whose background is grassroots football Southampton's academy Chelsea's under 21s I believe he's got a UEFA B licence which I have Did get a draw against Pep by the way I know everyone was like you made some good tactical tweaks in the second half from that game and I'm not disparaging that guy but Chelsea Football Club shouldn't have Cal McFarlane in place it's like when Spurs sacked Mourinho and put Ryan Mason in for a cup final and that was a bigger game but it's the same thing these people are not qualified we can talk about whether Rosinia was qualified but Cal McFarlane shouldn't be leading Chelsea into any game particularly not an FA Cup semi-final so was it the right decision to sack Rossiniar I mean judging going purely by the sort of the clear evidence that the players weren't having him probably because the way the world works now in football is that it's much easier to to dispense with the manager than it is half a team particularly when you spent one and a half billion pounds assembling it but I feel very sorry for Rossiniar I feel very very sorry for him he's had the mickey taken out on from the start and there may have been a few David Brent-isms in there or a few things he said in the past that were dredged up that's been used against him but he's a smart guy, he's articulate, he was a bit different he's clearly a good coach and he saw some interesting things early on even think back to the corner routines against Arsenal in that game or even when they tried to counter Arsenal's set-piece power by keeping loads of men up the pitch like no one else tried that and I just think like this kind of just taps into the whole sort of, there's a lot spoken about how misguided the Chelsea project is but I think, I've said this before, I said this in a column in February about the way they treat a lot of young players it stretches the bounds of ethics too because they're taking, and I know people get, say that's a naive thing to say when we're talking about football and a big club that spends this sort of money but they're also taking people, players and staff from the other club under their umbrella put them in charge and then sacking them in the space of three months so where does that leave both your clubs and the people involved?

8:31Yeah we were discussing this on the editorial floor yesterday when the news broke and everyone was saying well he should never have taken the job and you're like, you can't say no it'd be like someone saying oh Tom you should go and host the rugby podcast I can't go no because it's like, no you do mate, off you go go and do it you can't say no can he? and then they sack him and now he's out of work. Out and far... In a much worse position. In a much worse position than he was at Strasbourg because at Strasbourg you looked at it and you looked at the job he was doing. I liked the job he did at Hull.

9:02Yeah, very much so. I thought it was very harsh his sacking at Hull and you look at it now and you think you know that if another club went for Liam O'Senia there would be a massive backlash from the fans where he don't want him he's not good and you know. Possibly. And you get that sort of thing now. They've done him no favours at all. I feel sorry for him. I mean, look, whether it's the right decision or not. And I look at it and I think, I can't see how it could have carried on. Because the other thing that happened with the Brighton game was he trashed the players at the end of it, which is the sort of last result of any manager, really.

9:41You always know someone's about to go through the door when they have a go at the players because they're the only ones, you know, he said, oh, you'll see what, you know, he made some... He made a reference that suggested he was going to make wholesale changes. But you're looking at going, to what? Yeah. Wholesale changes to what? The other thing... You haven't got another 22 players to come in for Sunday. The other thing is, when you get the sort of rumblings of discontent from within the change room, when it's been Chelsea in the past, it's been, you know, they talk about senior players or the big kind of characters in the room you know it was John Terry it was like I don't know Ed and Hazard all these good big stars Chelsea don't have any of them no they don't none of them deserve to be in a position of power if such a thing exists to be saying get rid of the manager yeah none of them so coming back to Martin you know you've both talked about big issues here at Chelsea and where they are at this point in the season they've got this FA Cup semi-final of course they're in 8th at the moment 5 defeats on the spin, a long, long way off the Champions League paces.

10:46I mean, without a manager, how bad is this situation at Chelsea now? Martin, you've talked about the idea that they could beat Tottenham in terms of next season if this keeps going. They're obviously looking to arrest that slide. The board have said in the statement that there's a period of self-reflection needed, and some, I would say. But how bad is the mess that we're talking about here? Look, I've been saying for a few weeks now, when you see there's a Chelsea game or there's a game involving one of the top clubs and they show that league table and they stop at Chelsea because they're looking at Chelsea and the gap between Chelsea and Liverpool.

11:25And I've been saying for a long time, the worry for Chelsea is not the gap with Liverpool, it's the gap with Fulham. And all the teams that are now in amongst, of course, because Brighton are now in sixth, Bournemouth are seventh and Chelsea are now eighth. Eighth. and deserve because you can see where Brighton's next win is coming from and you can see where Bournemouth's next win is coming from but you can't see where Chelsea's next win is coming from I think now Champions League football is gone so I think the league table is relevant this season really for them they don't want Europa League football I said this the other week they don't want Europa League football they definitely don't want Conference League football Pete said there was like a strange world where it could matter on Monday show but they're not going to make Champions League But you don't even think kind of symbolically if they, you know, they end up finishing 10th.

12:12Like Chelsea, if they won the Club World Cup, they were, in theory, the best team in the world. And they finished 10th. You're never the best team in the world at the Club World Cup. But what you are. That's what you can say, isn't it? But I was there and it was a legitimate tournament and it was a genuine tournament. It was a genuine win in the final. I mean, they beat PSG. And you looked at it and beat them well. 3-0. And PSG ended up fighting with everybody at the end. And so it's this idea that, say, PSG chucked it all. They didn't. They've got world champions written on the top. They spent the night before.

12:45PSG spent the night before, like, sort of buttonholing FIFA and asking them, like, so what do we do when we get the trophy? And, you know, where do we pick it up or whatever? PSG wanted to win that. But, and I thought, and this is the one thing, because for senior you sort of called it from the start. The one thing that I definitely misjudged I thought they'd turn the corner in the summer with the Club World Cup. I'm thinking right, this is beginning to look. I think we all said it didn't we? Apart from you. I can see where this project, I know the fans hate it being called a project, but there's a lot of projects in football so there is that.

13:26But I can see where this project is going. I can see this, I can see what they're doing and why they're doing it now they've just got to stop this sort of tumble or whatever but did you ever have faith that that was going to happen that was the thing for me, I saw the progress and everyone was like yeah look there's clear progress here the players you thought were maybe developing as well and stepping up possibly could lead them forward to challenge for the title and stuff but did you ever have the faith that they were going to stop they were going to stop because the model the model depends on it that's the whole thing that's why I say the league tables are relevant the bigger picture for Chelsea is more important now, it's what do they do now how do they, there's this talk about they're going to tweak their model to kind of sign a few more experienced players how do they make the finances work, is there going to be more creative accountancy so that allows them to do that or are they going to have to sell players to allow them to do that That would be my next question.

14:28What do they do now? Where do they go managerially? Who do they go for? Who wants it? Exactly. If you're a ruler at Bournemouth, do you look at that and go, no, not a chance. I can go somewhere else. Because everyone says, oh, but it's great, you get paid off and you get this. It doesn't. You don't want to waste your career. you think it's got to that point now with Chelsea and other managers where they do actually look at it and don't just go wow Chelsea wow massive chance I think there's some red flags I think there's like you have less authority as Chelsea head coach than you do at other clubs whether that's to do with management of players minutes which we've seen in the past particularly when Cole Palmer that whole issue with Cole Palmer and Maresca that basically was the beginning of the end for him you have less authority in terms of transfers and I know a lot of managers don't but you have an input and that was another bone of contention for Maresca, you thought I've done a good job here, I want, some say I want to help guide say, let the people above me know what I think we need and you don't have that and also like there's just this sort of a cultural problem, there's this sort of air of entitlement when you sign all these young kids and put them on big money like and a succession of managers have said we need more people to guide them here.

15:58There's a cultural issue. So the bigger picture is the issue for Chelsea. Even if they are going to change direction a bit which you would hope after this disaster of almost four years one and a half billion pounds spent to take the club backwards they would change direction. But even doing so now is difficult. It's like Chelsea are at a real crossroads. Even if they want to go down a more sort of sensible path a path with more logic at the end of it how did he do it? Yeah, just coming back to Martin your point you made at the very start talking about recently you've thought they could be the next Tottenham you know, looking at the Premier League obviously Manchester City and Arsenal are out on their own kind of the top two teams but Manchester United, Aston Villa, Liverpool behind them, they've all had inconsistent seasons like how far are Chelsea away from those teams?

16:46Because that's where they want to be away from those teams they're behind Bournemouth but in terms of thinking about like a manager coming in or a manager wanting this opportunity you'd still see it as there will be a manager who wants to take Chelsea Bill Hicks had a great routine about because the way that you know you get sort of serial killers and you get it's very dark today I'm very dark it's all my hawks I didn't know where you were going with that one yeah but you get sort of serial killers and you get women in the courtroom trying to give them marriage proposals or whatever. That's a good analogy.

17:21And he says that if Satan came back, there would be women who are into it. And they're sort of like, Chelsea and Satan. The same thing's like, oh, you don't know him like I do. And you know, oh, I can change him. And so there'll always be a manager who thinks, oh, I can change him. I can get in there. Same as there was always a manager that thought we could change Mario Balotelli. And you're going, look, he's letting off fireworks in his Y-fronts. You can't change him. And then, oh, no, I can't. I know how to handle these players. So there will be someone who thinks, I can handle five various directors of football plus other directors who think they know more about football than anyone else.

18:13And the doctors. And the doctors. And the physios. And I can handle all of this. And we can win it with kids and we can... But, so they'll get someone, you know. But if you're Cesc Fabregas and you've worked wonders at Como, you must be looking at it thinking, do I just let this one pass and wait and see if I can get something a little bit more stable? Someone with a little bit more of an idea. Would you wait as a manager? Would you be saying the policy on transfers needs to be changed either under me or before I come in, you know, Gregor, you keep talking about leaders and the change in the kind of seven-year contracts for 22-year-olds and stuff.

18:53Would you be saying, I'm not asking for a name, but like, what would you do then to arrest this now? Like in the coming months, you keep talking about the bigger picture is the biggest thing. So in the summer, so say they finish, don't get any Europe, which they might not be bothered by, and they finish ninth or 10th. What do they do in the summer first? Do they go out and sign a leader? Do they get a manager and then say, you go pick your leader? how do they do it how do they approach it I think I'm not saying a manager should be we're not going back to the old days where manager says I want him that might happen once in four transfer windows or whatever but it's okay for a manager to be sitting in that room and have quite significant amount of influence over what kind of player he feels his team needs the one that he has to guide on the pitch so like first of all I'd allow the manager into that room and then definitely they need to tweak their model, they need to stop the churn but it's difficult now because they need to rely on the churn as well as the 1.5 billion they've recouped 800 million in player sales and I'm not saying they should take credit for that because like a lot of the players were, those players are from the academy or players who are already at the club or players who they've signed and then flipped in the space of a year or two in order to keep it moving and replace them with someone who's not even better so like that's what needs to stop I think the fundamental flaw in this whole project was this idea that these guys were the smartest guys they thought they were the smartest guys in the room they thought we found a way to kind of turn players into super assets and keep that rolling and generate a sort of a bigger asset that's almost like something like these hedge funds invest in like a government bond.

20:48That's what they saw Chelsea as. But they've realised that football is not as easy as just investing money into a blue chip asset. So, yeah. Give a manager a bit more authority or a head coach. They can be a head coach. And you have to have some players with a bit of experience to help guide the players around them. And also just reduce the amount of business they do. Man City really wanted Cristiano Ronaldo. The second time when Manchester United brought him back. Man City really wanted him. The people who ran Manchester City thought this would be great for us. We could, you know, not just sell a lot of shirts but our profile around the world and this could be really great for us.

21:34So I sat down and they said to Petr Ronaldo we can get Cristiano Ronaldo. And he said, the problem is I don't know where I play Man City listened you know they really the club really could see what was in it for them but the manager didn't want it and Man City listened and that's how you run a football club you know you can't let the manager just run it on his own but at the same time you can't factor the manager out of it Chelsea's appointments have you know moved so far away from someone like Pep Guardiola to be absurd so they don't want that relationship that's clear but clearly even if you're not Pep Guardiola that's still the way the relationship should work the one big elephant in the room at the moment is we're talking about what they should do like throughout throughout Chelsea's you know the era of Blue Co and as they spent this unprecedented sum of money they've never truly given the impression that winning is the primary aim winning the Premier League winning the Champions League winning the biggest trophies that's never felt like their number one aim that's an absurd thing to say about a football club like Chelsea but it's the truth so is that going to be their aim or is it going to be getting a return for their investment I'm not sure those two things marry up particularly after the money they've already spent you're going to throw more good money after bad I don't know the answer to that it's not quite investment either when you look at some of this stuff so you go right okay they get these young players in and you know the impression it sort of gives this idea of get the young players in and then you know resale is that they're getting them in on the cheap but they're not I mean Garnaccio cost£40 million Ryan Cherky costs£5 million less than Garnaccio.

23:38So they're not extracting enormous value from this market. They're paying good money for good young players. Some of them they'll be able to make money on. But not all. Not many. I can't see many, no. Not many. Given the fuses. I know there's a calculation that you do the maths and they can make money on Fernandes by selling him£30 million less than they bought him for because of the various... Installments and things, yes. Installments and you move the money around or whatever. But by our reckoning and by the layman's reckoning, you pay£105 million for someone, you sell him for£106 million, you've made money, you sell him for£104 million, you've lost money.

24:30And you look at all of their players how many of them would actually sell for more than they bought them? Yeah, yeah. I mean, we've done a lot of the big picture stuff but Peter Rutzler reporting for the Times website that there's no plan to put in a permanent manager until the summer but they've still got an FA Cup semi-final at the weekend they've still got the end of the Premier League season obviously we've talked about whether or not there is any desire to finish in the European places but what is the rest of Chelsea's season in just a very short summary? like is it try and win the FA Cup and take stock but like is there anything bigger than that or is the season kind of already a disaster can they save their season in any way no I think look clearly winning the FA Cup is an achievement and it would be a big achievement and they would celebrate it and quite rightly the aim obviously again stating the obvious is to finish as high as possible in the league but the Champions League is out of the reach now and if they finish in the Europa League it's a failure and again you look at just just from the start point when they bought the club Chelsea had just finished third in the Premier League under Tuchel they hadn't finished outside the top five in seven years they'd just won the Champions League the year before and they finished twelfth sixth fourth and who knows what they're currently eighth right so it's it's it's a backwards step they started off with Thomas Tuchel as their manager.

26:02It's remarkable. Thomas Tuchel was their manager. When Thomas Tuchel went, you couldn't quite believe it. And then they put Pochettino and they managed to lose Pochettino. Then they had a guy that won the Club World Cup and they managed to get rid of him. He's now being linked with Manchester City. He decides to leave as well. They've gone progressively down and then worse each time I don't see what the as Gregor says there you know it's the smartest guys in the room if you're a Chelsea fan and want to get in touch with your views on the situation at your club you can email me tom.clark at the time.co.uk let's quickly look at the top of the Premier League table Martin games played 33 goal difference 37.70 Arsenal and Manchester City are neck and neck but City have taken top spot just only just after a 1-0 win at Burnley.

26:59Martin, before I come to you with your thoughts in the more general terms, because you were at the big game at the weekend, Gregor, just very quickly, this 1-0 scraping past Burnley, done anything to change your mind from Monday's show that it is City's title just about to lose? I know it's very tight. No, I still think City, but I think this game showed that it's going to be nip and tuck. I found it actually quite instructive, the sort of reaction afterwards, this idea that clearly all of us before the game would thought they would win the game comfortably but you know the way the framing of the question into Erling Haaland or to Pep Guardiola afterwards you know you're a bit disappointed like the case it's not a computer game like they went and they got the three points they've gone top of the league for the first time in more than 200 days this was a good day for Man City like and it's theirs now but as you say it's a lot about how the narrative has gone now that a lot of people thought they'll win this 5-0 City are going to steamroller it but as we discussed on Monday which is my question to you Martin which I already know the answer to because I read your match report on Monday but this title race is not over is it?

28:01Oh no no I mean I wrote that on the side and everyone's been now sort of saying it this week oh Arsenal are still in it but you could tell they were still in it the other night because that was better than I'd seen Arsenal play for a long long time you know there's ways of getting beat 2-1 you can get beat 2-1 it should have been 10-1 I've seen a few of those but that was they got beat 2-1 but they played they played well and they took the game I'm not saying they took the game necessarily to Man City but they gave as good as they got, they went toe-to-toe in a lot of things Just one thing I wanted to ask you, not in terms of picking a winner but as a question that I asked the guys do you think you could see both teams dropping points in the running in terms of the nip and tuck and how close it's going to be No No.

28:50No, I can see both teams winning five games. Really? To be fair, yeah. I can see both teams. It's going to be quite literally a shootout. If you look at Arsenal... You think Arsenal are going to win all five? If Arsenal replicate their results against those five teams this season, they win all five games. I know, but Arsenal are a different team too. Oh, no, absolutely. But at the same time, look, you know, I'm a family of bookmakers, you know. Arsenal versus Newcastle I fancy Arsenal Arsenal versus West Ham I fancy Arsenal you can throw any do they play Crystal Palace is it Crystal Palace I fancy Arsenal so I'm not looking at those five games and there's a game they go oh they'll slip up there so in every single one of those five games I would fancy Arsenal so it's who scores the most wins the league every one of City's five games I would fancy City that would be a fun way to end this Premier League season wouldn't it we'll be discussing the latest from Arsenal and Manchester City on Monday's show, but it's time for a quick break.

29:53If it comes to a shootout on the last day, then you're probably back in the team that's got Erling Haaland, Ryan Cherky, Jeremy Docku, and you're probably back in City if they're neck and neck on the last day, and it's just a shooting competition, unless there's seven goals in it or something like that. As I said, they may be playing against Aston Villa, who maybe will have played in a European final three or four days earlier so they're an interesting little you know bits of context to the games and also the fact Arsenal play two now before City play at all so you know they have a chance to exactly Arsenal come out and go bang with a good performance that you're talking about Martin yeah I'm just not confident they do that Arsenal could be six points clear the next time they're in City play interesting clip that up Neil for Monday's show I'll make sure to reference that for Gregor Robinson if Arsenal get a big win but as I say it's time for a break we're going to be talking about West Ham in the second half of the show and that's where their theme for Bill Edgar's quiz question comes from West Ham Everton this weekend of course which of the following full backs now at one of these two clubs and I will give you the options in the break is so effective at defending in one-on-one situations that he has fooled 77 % of attempts to dribble past him in the Premier League when the next best full back over the past 10 season is only 67 % so essentially the best one-on-one defender.

31:17I think Gregor Robertson already knows the answer. We'll find out after the break.

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33:09Welcome back to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel. Absolute quiz demons in the studio. I will give you, the listener, the options to the quiz question. Vitaly Mikhilenko, Kyle Walker-Peters, Seamus Coleman, Aaron Wan-Bissaka. I was asking which of those is essentially the best one-on-one defender, but both of them, listeners, got the answer to the question straight away, which was? Aaron Wan-Bissaka. In unison, they said. It was a beautiful moment. It's a shame. I was thinking Gregor would come in there, but to be fair, you know.

33:41You should have rehearsed that. You should have rehearsed that. You could have been like a beautiful duo. There's loads and loads to discuss on this show, of course, and we are not mentioning Leicester City and their relegation to League One. That's because we're doing a special EFL show with Johnny Northcroft. That'll be out tomorrow. Johnny Northcroft not only lives in Leicester, but has quite literally written the book on Leicester and knows loads about the club. So I'll be talking to him tomorrow about their plight and their move down the pyramid. Ten years after that remarkable Premier League win, they find themselves heading towards League One.

34:09One of them, another mad story in this crazy Premier League season. Martin I should mention as well listeners and viewers can join me and you and Johnny Northcroft at a live times podcast to preview the World Cup on May 26 excited for that yeah yeah first time is it a podcast I didn't know it was a podcast it's a live game podcast event talking about the World Cup right but is it actually a podcast yeah well I mean we can probably put it out yeah right okay there you go why not really good yeah that's nice yeah I'll be there yeah that's good because you're on all the posters yeah that's handy Yeah, but I've been on the posters before and never turned up.

34:42And never turned up. No, no, that's not true. Well, there you go. Make sure you get some tickets. That's not true readers. If it says I'm on the posters, I'll be there. Make sure you get some tickets and find out whether or not Martin Samuel will be there if you go to thetimes.com forward slash events and you'll find options for buying the tickets. There, let's talk about a couple of exclusive stories that we've had on the Times website. This week, the first of them from Matt Lawton, Baroness Karen Brady stepping down from West ham united the businesswoman and apprentice star was key in the club's move to the london stadium and ends a 16-year tenure as vice chair to focus on business interests and the house of lords role martin you followed that up with a comment piece that was headlined karen brady's departure is a loss for all of football not just west ham explain to us a little bit more about why you feel like that well no i feel that you know it's another it's another break with the premier leagues past when you had people uh who were vocal who had opinions who contributed at meetings you hear about the premier league meetings now they're um they're very sort of uh muted affairs in many ways people that are um don't feel empowered um to make contributions um and Karen was never like that.

36:02You knew what she thought and everything. And I think, and I know a lot of West Ham fans disagree, I think that she leaves the club in a better place than she found it. People forget that West Ham were owned, that the board had been massively hurt. West Ham got to be the only club that got bought by a bank. And then the bank, and then the club ended up financing the bank. you know usually if you get bought by a bank you know you get the champagne out and it's happy days and here we go West Ham got bought by a bank and ended up sort of trying to keep the bank afloat and that was the club that the current West Ham ownership that was the club that they walked into so to end up with a 60 ,000 capacity stadium which isn't perfect we all know it isn't perfect but to end up with a 60 ,000 capacity stadium to end up with your first trophy in 43 years which also happened they're the longest serving club in the Premier League outside of the Big Six and Everton when people talk about West Ham yo-yo club this yo-yo club they haven't been a yo-yo club for quite a long time in the Premier League now so it could end up that way it could end up very negatively sadly but so you know I'm not one of those people that hold with the you know the club's better off with that I don't think it is and if you look at it the commercial manager is now going the finance manager is now going the only person who has left the club you know the good possibly we look to that is Karen Brady so she must have been does that worry you as a fan oh well yeah of course it does particularly if you're in the sort of jeopardy that West Ham are in at the moment, it worries you that half of the executive leadership are going, people in charge of the commercial arrangements, people in charge of the finance arrangements.

38:10Because if West Ham go down, finance and commerce are going to be quite important in the next 12 months. Well, let's talk about that situation on the pitch then, Gregor, because we said we'd bring this back after Monday's show, didn't we? Because West Ham had that big game against Crystal Palace and you could probably sense the nerves in the display, maybe even with both teams. It wasn't the best game, this one. But West Ham getting a point at Palace, which means that they are 17th, two points ahead of Tottenham Hotspur. Martin, we spoke with Gregor briefly on Monday's show about this, but I mean, how are you seeing it at the bottom now?

38:43A two-point gap? You know, months ago you said West Ham were dead and buried, done, finished, two points clear of Tottenham now. I mean, in a strong position. If I had to have a bet on it, it's West Ham or the third team that goes down rather than Tottenham. Why so? Why so? Because I look at Tottenham's running and you just think that it's probably a slightly easier running. What West Ham have got to do, and also I suppose you're always more pessimistic about your own team, But what West Ham have got to do this weekend, most certainly, is match Tottenham's result. Tottenham are way at Wolves, who have just been relegated.

39:26Whatever Tottenham do at Molyneux, West Ham have got to do that minimum against Everton. Do you think they can? I think they can. They've been playing well at home, particularly, which I think is significant. I thought it was an opportunity missed at Crystal Palace. I thought West Ham could and should have won that. and I thought that was an opportunity missed. Greg Inwood? That's the thing, I mean, we were talking about this beforehand, we're looking at the games and Spurs wolves away, although we were talking like sometimes a team that's finally relegated can be liberated, but still that's a golden opportunity to get three points.

40:00And let's remind ourselves, they've taken, I think, six points, six points from 15 games, the last 15 games since December 28th. So you've got to remember, as much as you look at the fixtures and you go, yeah, they look a little bit kinder, Bristol have to do something they nearly did it against Brighton but they have to do something they haven't done for three months more but after that Wolves game, Villa the Villa game is in between their two Europa League semi-final games so that's another interesting bit of context, then Leeds who will be safe and it's at home then Chelsea who are a basket case Everton on the final day is tough West Ham I'm covering the game with Everton, that's going to be a tough game everything will not make it easy for anyone Brentford away Arsenal at home, Newcastle away Leeds final day will be safe Leeds are safe now I think West Ham are still the team that give me more confidence actually but I do acknowledge that Spurs now have a run-in that looks a bit more favourable than West Ham I did enjoy the story this week from Tom Ornott that the relegation threat and Tottenham are advertising to hire a professional psychologist to support the players and improve the mentality of the team.

41:15Might be a bit late that one maybe. Could have done with that. How long is the hiring process? Yeah I was going to say yeah. At what point do you think this person's coming in and talking about tough jobs? That's got to be one of the toughest in football. Greg you mentioned Leeds there. They're getting a point against Bournemouth. They go into an FA Cup semi-final this weekend. Had some listeners Helen and Charlie get in touch to say Tom will you do a special extended episode once Leeds secure Premier League safety and win the FA Cup? I mean I'm not against it guys to be honest. It would be a remarkable achievement if they managed to win the FA Cup but just in terms of the Premier League performances Gregor we touched on it before but Daniel Farker has done an amazing job hasn't he outstanding yeah and like they rarely lose like that's a big sounds like an obvious thing to say but when they don't win they're drawing so many games recently I should say as well we didn't really talk about it with Chelsea but I mean they should be looking at this going we're getting to an FA Cup this is a get to an FA Cup final gotcha yeah well yeah because they're playing against Chelsea who are in a state of disarray Absolutely, it's a great opportunity and it's been a long, long time since they were in this position as well.

42:15So yeah, Sean Longstaff getting that kind of, what was it, 95th, 97th minute equaliser just sort of kept that momentum going for them and it has been a remarkable sense of momentum since they beat West Ham in the quarterfinals, then going to Old Trafford and then thrashing Wolves just to kind of make sure and although they're on 49 points in Farxie sorry they're on 40 points it's not done it's done it's done in terms of managers of the year contenders obviously Pep Guardiola and Mikel Arteta are out in front because whoever wins the league normally gets it but as alternatives Daniel Farker's got to be a candidate hasn't he in terms of what he's done I think anyone who keeps a promoted team up has done a great job I really do I mean it's very very hard if you think of if you think of the last two seasons where the you know three up straight back down again, three up, straight back down again so you know the guys who've kept Sunderland and Leeds in the division deserve enormous credit.

43:22And thank God because we all came into the season thinking this is bad it's not a healthy thing it's like potentially existential crisis stuff if it's impossible to come up and stay up and it had been 10 of the last 15 or something as well so yeah thank goodness that two teams have been marshalled intelligently and like they've not come up and you know been dogmatic in their approach they've been pragmatic and they've been and in Leeds' case it took a little tweak sort of earlier in the season in Sunderland's case it was from the get-go they were really resilient and dogged and hard to beat and that's got them over the line yeah we'll see if we're talking about more success for Leeds United on Monday's show and now to finish we're going to talk to our northern sports correspondent Martin Hardy about the situation at Newcastle and particularly one of their players.

44:12It's another one of our exclusives on the Times website this week. The headline reading, Newcastle put£75 million price tag on Anthony Gordon amid interest from Bayern Munich. Martin, what's going on? Tell us a little bit about this story in isolation and then we'll talk about some of the big picture with Newcastle in just a sec. Newcastle will start selling players this summer as they did last summer, but I think the preparation will be a lot better this time. trying to get a hold of the situation rather than chasing a bit of a farce last summer with Alexander Izak, which eventually kind of did for him, did for Newcastle and did for Liverpool.

44:49So I think it's kind of a bit pre-emptive this summer. They cannot afford to keep spending money the way they have been. Last summer, 250 million quid went out of the club on not very much. That was pretty much all their money spent. So now they have to start generating funds in line with PSR and the change in financial rules next summer. Therefore, expect at least one big name to leave this summer. Anthony Gordon is probably the preferred choice, I would say, by club and probably player two. There is a genuine interest from Bayern Munich. I think their initial kind of estimation of the player was around£55 million, which if you bear in mind, Newcastle paid£45 million player and we're kind of using the fact that we're in a bit of a financial situation themselves at the time to lower the price.

45:41Since then, second top goal scorer in the Champions League this season. England regular. The fee that they want will be around£75 million, which is what we said in our exclusive earlier this week. Bayern Munich go anywhere near that figure. Talks will start and I suspect Anthony Gordon will be playing in the Bundesliga next season. Really interesting. I mean, there's a kind of tone of resignation about this in terms of for Newcastle fans, what you're suggesting. Is this because of the situation in the League 14th at the moment? We'll come on to talk about the situation with Eddie Howe and what a difficult season it's been.

46:12But you mentioned Alexander Izak before. In the summer, there was kind of lots of conversations around, look, we're a club in the Champions League. We're a club going places. Is that why this is happening? Is that why there's an element of, well, Anthony Gordon's one of our stars and I'm afraid he's got to go. Is that what it's about? you've thrown a lot of questions in me there in one newcastle can't continue to spend money at the level they are doing the club does not turn over enough money um 450 million pounds has been put into the club for running costs from its shareholders which is piff and the ruben brothers since its takeover um they are running very close in terms of emortization of players agents fees and players salaries to far too close to their turnover they cannot afford to keep buying players without selling players in fairness i can't think of a model of a football club that doesn't do that um so perhaps newcastle fans have kind of went along with that magic carver ride of the takeover and all these billions flowing in the club but at some point you have to start selling players and it's far better i think if you have a control over the situation which is what newcastle are trying to do here rather than the actual farce, absolute farce of last summer, the two or three months of a soul opera with a player refusing to train and pretty much hiding away in his home and leaving his home eventually in the North East to facilitate his move to Liverpool.

47:35Key phrase in here, which I was told 12 months ago probably, was that Alexander Izak wanted to play for a competitive Champions League team. Newcastle, as we've seen, are an occasional Champions League team at this stage. even a bad Liverpool team reached the quarter finals of the competition Newcastle get through to the round of the knockout phase this year for the first time in the club's history Anthony Gordon is ambitious he's 25 he wants to become he wants to move to the next level at the minute Newcastle are slipping down the level this season has been very very difficult if you to sympathise with him I think he's a really good player he's played he's played as a left winger with no real centre forward because the money was wasted on Visser and Valdemar he's played as a centre forward he's played as a right winger against Sonnen in the Derby defeat he's played as all three whether or not right now he's got quite the stomach for this fight we'll see but a player that why on earth would you not be tempted to move to Bayern Munich a club that is on the up with a bright manager that plays attacking football and you can certainly see his career moving on if he was to do that Martin I'll come back to you in a second on the bigger picture at Newcastle but Gregor Martin just your reaction on this story in terms of the price tag Anthony Gordon's future as Martin said there he laid it all out he's heading towards the prime of his career he's probably going to start for England at a World Cup is Bayern Munich in 75 million does that sound about right to you guys?

49:05Yeah I mean but he'd be trying to get a place in one of the best front threes most informed sort of attacking lines in the whole of Europe but I think he's a brilliant player and he's entering his prime and he's also, anytime you hear him speak, he's not shy about talking up his ambition and how good he thinks he is and how good he believes he can be. So for him, I think he would see it as a natural next step to a European giant and a club that's competing at the top end in the Champions League. I think the complication is that if Martin knows all of this stuff, I'm pretty sure Bayern Munich will know it as well and they all know that if Newcastle have got to sell, and David Hopkinson made this obvious that Newcastle have got to sell and sort of showed everyone their hand, if you think of how the negotiation for Harry Kane went a couple of years ago with Bayern Munich, the first offer is a huge low ball, usually.

50:13and you could end up with another summer. Now, it's a summer that they might look at it and think, yeah, but we know that we're going to sell Wales with the ISAC and they were trying to keep hold of him. But it could be another summer of this negotiation and this sort of increment, because the player always knows. Harry Kane knew that Bayern Munich win for him. So, you know, of this sort of incremental negotiations. With a World Cup as well, not ideal. With a World Cup as well. That's my concern from Newcastle's point of view. Martin, just quickly, your reaction to those points from the chaps here in the studio?

50:55Newcastle probably said a little bit too much in terms of what has to happen. But at the same time, they have to set a message to their supports, which is we're not just got... The cost, I think, thus far of the table to PIF has probably been over a billion pounds. and you can there is that case whereby it's like we want more, more players what are you training it's like whoa hang on a second you can't have every single thing in the world here so I think there was kind of a realignment for a message to the supporters the supporters are in it feels like the clubs they've got about four and a half years worth of angst to get out of the system at the minute because everything's gone so great whereas historically it hasn't and it's all coming out at once but I think there has to be a realignment of what the club can do in the transfer market might have been a slightly bit clumsy in terms of how they've got that message out there but to their fans you cannot just keep buying 70 million pound players all the time and pay the massive wages when the turnover does not does not reflect uh well enough to do that so so i get that if the harry kane example is a good one for martin but they moved up to eventually the fee that was acceptable and I suspect you might find something similar here with Newcastle we've seen the fees that what was it 80 million for Anthony for Manilaire 75, 80 90 million for Sancho average really bang average wingers that I would say are inferior to Anthony Gordon so I don't actually think that's a bad fee for a player in the modern game and Bayern Munich certainly have the financial strength to do that he is contracted until 2029 and Newcastle signed a new contract in 2024 so So Newcastle have a little bit of strength in that situation.

52:33I can see them getting around about the fee they want that will make them able to do more business this summer. But the key thing here is, what month are we in? April. Newcastle didn't sell Izak until the end of August, beginning of September. This gives you months to plan and plot and build a new squad rather than scrambling around. And, you know, like, it was a really embarrassing period for the club, I thought, last summer. And thus, they got their fingers massively burned. I suppose that comes on to my question, Martin. Is there confidence? Do you have the confidence, and would supporters, that the planning of the squad and the highlighting and recruitment of the right players, have you confidence that the club can do that better this summer?

53:19Because even when they finally did do the business, have any of them been a success? Malik Thio, just about? Yeah, no, no, I completely agree with what you're saying. Our Ramsdale is probably the worst Newcastle goalkeeper I've seen since Steve Hardwick. Malik Chau has had a good season, but has played too many games. Ramsey, ineffectual. Alanga, Puer, Visser, massively overpriced at£55 million. And Voldemort is... So that has to change. That obviously has to change. So obviously that has to change. I mean, you can accept whether you want to sell a player or you become a club who's willing to accept that you have to sell your best player sometimes.

53:52Sorry, Greg. Last summer, the club didn't have a chief executive and they didn't have a sporting director. They certainly didn't have a sporting director, so they were scrambling around in terms of what they were doing, transfers. With Ross Wilson at the helm this year, I think they are much more in control of the situation, have much more of a plan. The key element here is the story of this season for Newcastle United, as most other clubs, has still not been told. There's a lot riding on these five games in terms of can Newcastle find a bit of an uplift? it looks unlikely they're going to get anywhere near a European place but can they show a little bit of form to get inside that top 10 I think 9th, 10th then you might see in terms of who survives at the club it is pretty similar to now moving forward so therefore they will have those conversations together if there are five defeats coming down the track for Newcastle then it's anybody's guess what happens in the summer in terms of who stays in charge you think if you were to look at Newcastle with an overview it's the last month that's been the disaster not the season March of 6th Newcastle was still in the FA Cup in the knockout phase of the Champions League for the first time ever had a chance of finishing top 5 it's the last 4 results 3-2 on defeats at home and one away to Crystal Palace and the punishing 7-2 loss at Barcelona that's really taken the whole thing and suggested that it's been a disastrous campaign 14th the phrase that I'm hearing 14th is unacceptable which is where they are at present so something needs to happen these five games but I think well I don't think that can be in a worse position to deal with the transfer mode as they were last summer you're talking about transfers there there's one man we've not mentioned and you kind of hinted at it there but Eddie Howe the manager we talked about it on the show without you Martin so just a final question to you you've talked there about those final five games and how important they are are we actually talking about his future then at the club in terms of those five games being on the line they the club desperately does not want to see the five games as a trial for anyhow which step back a second but supporters probably will step back a second that's really harsh for a manager who took over a club and a team going absolutely nowhere and there's two champions league campaigns as a two cup finals one cup final etc etc but realistically if they flatline for the next five games then that conversation becomes very very tricky if they show some bounce some fight their run of games having played saturday tuesday friday what or what it's saturday sunday for months suddenly goes saturday arsenal away not an ideal fixture as we could all see in martin has written that arsenal side has got a bit of fight left in them yet gabriel that that failure to send him off may have implications for eddie howe because Arsenal are a far stronger team with Gabriel playing than they are without such a terrible refereeing decision and its impact could be felt for quite a while it's then Saturday, Brian at home, Sunday Forrest away who will be three days after a Europa League semi-final with Aspen Villa, Sunday West Ham at home, might West Ham be safe by then and Sunday Fulham away I think they need to show some fight life and get some points from those four or five games to give, just to kind of realign what's going on inside the club as it stands, Eddie is part of the picture, but Eddie Howe is part of that picture seen as part of the solution rather than the problem but you will, I've been surprised at just how vociferous Newcastle fans have been in elements of condemning what's happened this season and therefore the manager, so those four or five games, Arsenal's a hard one but the other four you would say you have to get something out of them for just to calm Tyneside life out.

57:37And I think in terms of the club's reputation, they want that top 10 finish. Yeah, lots of question marks around Newcastle United and all the other clubs basically in the Premier League. We're nearly at the end of the season and still so much to talk about. We'll leave it there. Martin Hardy, Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel, thank you very much for joining me. Keep an eye out for that special EFL show on Leicester with Johnny Northcroft and we'll be back with the regular show on Monday. We'll see you then.

58:31We'll see you next time. business and search Xero for your free trial. Conditions apply. In 2004, Andrew Malkinson was sentenced to life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Now another man has been convicted of the brutal rape in Greater Manchester, and we can reveal the true story of what happened that night. I'm Emily Dugan from the Sunday Times, and I've been investigating one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in modern British history. Listen to the full podcast series with new episodes by searching for 17 years wherever you get your podcasts.