Liverpool beat Arsenal at Anfield, as Isak arrives in record deal

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1:45Gregor Robertson: Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Liverpool find a way to win again and Arsenal's Anfield misery continues. Dominic Sabozlai's stunning free kick eventually separated the sides as Liverpool struck late for the third game running to top the Premier League table. Was this an opportunity missed for Arsenal? Will Mikel Arteta ever throw off his team's straight jacket? and with Alexander Isak on the verge of completing a British record 125 million move from Newcastle United to Anfield toppling the champions just became a hell of a lot harder We'll be debating all of that and discussing big wins for Bournemouth, Brighton, West Ham and Crystal Palace more controversial officiating and more of the biggest deals on transfer deadline day I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me on today's show we have the Times senior sports writer Alison Rudd The Times columnist and feature writer James Geerbrandt and the Times tactics expert Hamza Khalik Lunat.

2:44Gregor Robertson: To Anfield, first of all, we are, as it happens, both James Geerbrandt and Hamza Khalik Lunat were. First of all, the free kick. Let's start with the free kick. What was that like to watch in the flesh, James? So I actually turned to Hamza afterwards and I was like, oh, think Raya was a bit slow there. I think maybe I've got that one. and then we saw the replay and it was like, oh no, right, that did just clip the inside of the post. That was pretty much unsaveable. It was a brilliant free kit, wasn't it? Did you feel it was going to happen? Do you know what? I honestly did. I believe you because I did too.

3:19But only from the kind of, mostly from the sort of journalist's sod's law point of view of I'd just written quite a nice intro for a nil now. Surely you mean his sob's law. Yes, very good. Yeah, so I was like, yeah, he's definitely going to... I was a bit slow there, sorry.

3:38Gregor Robertson: Hamza, what did you make of it? I mean, because it was a, you know, we'll come to this, but it wasn't the most thrilling game. It didn't quite live up to top of the table billing. But that moment sort of illuminated the whole game. Yeah, and what I found really interesting about the goal was the actual moment that led up to it, right? So Van Dijk gets the ball in midfield, sees Curtis Jones ahead of him, and he plays this really accurate line-splitting pass. It's risky all the way through into Curtis Jones. Curtis Jones receives it, turns, runs forward through the middle of the pitch and then draws a foul.

4:12Those two players took risks in that moment. Van Dijk to snap it right into midfield, even though Arsenal were pressing really well throughout the first half and there were tweaks in the second half, principally Liverpool went man-to-man to stop Calafiore getting space, but he made that pass, that risky pass. Curtis Jones received it and played with risk. He ran forward, tried to do something, tried to get to the box and drew the foul. And then the third risk was Soboslai looked at the ball, looked at the wall, looked at Raya and just went, you know what, I fancy it, I can take it. And that's what sort of struck me about this game, Liverpool's willingness to just do things, do the decisive things.

4:50And Arsenal, they're a team that wants to be champions, that considers themselves of the level, given that our Tetris mentioned a few times that in other seasons the team with the amount of points that they had, they would have been champions but I think yesterday they got up close and saw what champions are like and champions even if they don't play well, they will do something they will take that moment wherever it is, whenever it is to get the win and I think that's probably something they could learn from.

5:15Gregor Robertson: James, do you think that's fair? I mean that's kind of been the narrative that's come out of this game, as I say there wasn't that much stellar action on display so people are looking for storylines and that's probably the the one that everyone's leaning towards for Arsenal and that, you know, was it another opportunity missed? Could they do more in these big clutch games? I mean, look, it's right in the sense that Arsenal are the team with the onus on them. Arsenal have got to do more this season. So in that sense, I think it's fair, but I also, I didn't feel it was as cautious a performance by Arsenal as some maybe felt.

5:54I think it was a very contained, controlled game, I think by both teams, really. I think you could look at Arsenal's lineup and say, was it the right lineup? You know, it was a very physical lineup and maybe there could have been a bit more finesse there. But I don't think in terms of the like defense attack balance of the 11 he selected, it was like wildly sort of cautious. You had three proper attackers on the front line and three midfielders, Zubimendi, Rice, Marino, all of whom have that kind of carry their own kind of attacking or progressive threat. So I think Slott had it absolutely right when he said it was one of those games where very, very even it would usually have been a draw.

6:46And it was one of those games that was only ever going to be decided by a moment of magic or a mistake. Yeah, I accept what you said, but I don't think there was anything wrong with the lineup and it's not his fault that Saka was injured, for example, and Odegaard wasn't fit to start. And of course Saliba. And Saliba gets injured. They're not things you can particularly lay at Arteta's. But if I was an Arsenal fan, I would have been absolutely livid because what you had was a Liverpool side in that first half who were not functioning properly. They were either emotionally exhausted or it just wasn't clicking for them.

7:23And there were moments when it was really quite quiet at Anfield as people were sort of trying to work out where the next phase was going to come from. A team that are going to think they're going to be champions in that moment realize, aren't we the lucky ones? We've gone to Anfield and Liverpool aren't clicking. Let's move into risky areas. Arteta remained risk averse, regardless of the form that Liverpool were in. And they allowed, Arsenal allowed Liverpool to grow into the game and start to dominate it. That's the annoying thing from an Arsenal perspective, I'd have thought. Yes, I think if you take the game in isolation and you just go, a team has travelled to the champions in the third week of the season and they're playing for a point, that makes sense.

8:12If you take it in complete isolation, then you add some context. You go, well, Saka, the best player, is out. Erdegaard wasn't fully fit. He's their captain. He's important in their press. Saliba, like James said, came off in the first few minutes and then you go, oh actually, the game plan, it makes more sense but what about the other context that Alisson has just alluded to there Liverpool had conceded six goals in the past three matches against teams that are inferior to Arsenal and I don't mean this as disrespect to them, it's just, oh it's a better team Liverpool weren't playing with their first choice right back they weren't playing with their second choice right back, they were playing with a midfielder there Alexis McAllister has struggled he's not been fully fit, he was poor in midfield and then you have the wider context.

8:52What about those matches last season where Arsenal dropped points? This is becoming a theme where instead of taking agency in these moments for things that they do control, that they can control, as Alison said, they veer towards safety and caution. But why did Liverpool have a magic moment here? Because someone took a risk. If you look back to all the great teams and you could go through great moments in Premier League history or league history or Champions League history, there's a thread that connects all the great teams. In 1999, what did Manchester United do? The end of the game, in the Champions League final.

9:28They took a risk, right? Alex Ferguson talks about, in the last 15 minutes, when the game is in the balance, that's when you take the risk. You've got to start moving the ball into the box. You've got to start attacking. That's what enlivens supporters. That's what sends them home, happy, into the pub. And then they go home and tell them, it's in the full quote. he mentions that they'll go home tell the wives their kids I was there at Old Trafford when that happened why did Manchester City win the league in 2011-12 because they kept playing with risk they were losing to QPR what I'm saying is these are margins right and Arsenal keep falling on the wrong side of them and leagues can be won on margin but how do you get the best of the margins by taking the risk

10:11Gregor Robertson: I'll tell you your point but both of those examples are like moments where you have to throw caution to the wind Arsenal, generally speaking, are taking the long view. If we saw the best team in the league defensively, they've boosted their forward line by£250 million worth of talent. That's the other context. They feel that they should be able to add more goals, the goals they lacked last season, that should take them to the title. There is logic behind Arteta's approach. I don't think if you watched, for me, I don't think just taking yesterday's game, you would look at it, taking everything else away and say, wow, Team A risked so much more in that game than Team B.

10:50I didn't see that. I think a fair criticism of Arsenal would be, as I said, both managers at the end said exactly the same thing, which was one of those games where only a mistake or a moment of magic could win it. And I suppose the ask that Arsenal could ask themselves is, could we have made a different type of game? Could we have made it a game where we actually, not dominated, but where we were the better team on the balance of play? I think that's what you're saying. They didn't adapt to the circumstances. I think most people were probably, weren't you both surprised being there that Liverpool were not clicking at all?

11:28Moments of magic aren't apparitions either. That's why I mentioned Van Dijk passing to Curtis, Jones, and then Jones taking the dribble and then Sobberzai taking the shot. It's not like a magic moment just appeared. You have to force it. You have to take the shot in the first place, and that is the risk. I'm not saying you have to attack without a bat, like just fearlessly. That's different. I'm saying you have to take the initial risk in the first place. You have to play in the middle of the pitch to be near the opposition box, and that's when you might have a ball that bobbles your way, and then you can have your moment of magic, your moment of luck.

11:59But by playing in this particular way, the likelihood of having a bobble that falls your way, a little bit of luck, or your best players having a moment to impart magic on the game isn't there because some of the best players were on the bench. I saw the bench and I'm like, whoa, that is a brilliantly attacking bench. There's so much creativity there. And you look in the starting 11 and you go, there's not much in there though, is there? Do you guys agree with the selection? I don't think there's anything wrong with going to Anfield and starting off solid. In isolation. But as soon as you realise that this team, you know, they're not clicking at the moment, go for it, go for it.

12:41This is a team that wants to be champions, that clearly aspires to this, just spent£200,£250 million on improving their forward line so they can make that next step. So I'm trying to judge them as potential champions. What do they need to do? And I look at what the other champions have done, and I think that's it. They just need to embrace that side a bit more.

13:00Gregor Robertson: What about Liverpool then, Alison? and I mean, as I've said, they've found their way again. Three games in a row, it's been a kind of late strike that's stolen the points. It's learned behaviour, isn't it? It's not magic, it's like literal magic. It's not something that's, you know, Arnest Slott doesn't have a big cauldron and he throws in Eyes of Newt and stuff and says, I don't, doesn't matter how we'll play, something wonderful will happen. It's the combination of the more you do that, the more you find a way in difficult games and the difficult periods, you believe in yourself to do it again.

13:34It's almost learned behaviour to be magical. I mean, they weren't appalling or anything, but someone like Mo Salah, you know, he just wasn't getting on the ball. And when he was on the ball, his touch seemed heavy. And often it's his skill that lifts the team. So they had to find a different way, a different way of finding that unity and self-belief. But I think because you know you've done it before, you know it will happen. It's not some sort of wacky thing. That is part of football, believing you can do it.

14:10Gregor Robertson: Isak. Let's talk about Isak now then. I mean, as I said at the start, this was an opportunity for Arsenal. It's probably going to be even more difficult now that they've got one of the best strikers in the world who seems to be joining them. £125 million. Martin Hardy's reporting on the Times website. medical today what do you think this does to the title race Alison? I mean if I was a bookie I'd probably be paying out now on Liverpool to be perfectly honest Do we agree? I mean does this kind of you look around and Arsenal are the team we thought going into the season who are going to be challenging Liverpool the closest and that's still probably the case when you see Manchester City struggles when they make a signing of this kind of calibre it does look pretty ominous Hamza it does yeah but I may have said recently but as in the key thing for the league title is you can keep the players fit more than anything right so if Liverpool can keep Isak and Salah and Van Dijk and Gravenberg fit and Sobberslai then yeah they'll probably win if Arsenal have a bit more luck this season in terms of injuries and their opponents don't then maybe they'll win but to return to your point yeah this is a real I mean Liverpool have the top two scorers from last season, right?

15:29That's already 50-ish sort of goals, more than 50 goals. It's important for them as well because when I just mentioned availability, Eketike has not really shown over his career the ability to play 5 ,000 minutes. Very few players do because 5 ,000 minutes is loads. But that's probably what you're going to expect Liverpool to be playing this season. So if they didn't have him, Liverpool would have actually been in a real pickle. How could they fill all those minutes in all their matches if Salah's going to the African Cup of Nations, Chiesa hasn't really played much over the past few seasons, Ekotike sort of maxed out at three and a bit thousand, they would have just run out of bodies.

16:02So this is actually, they needed it, which I think Newcastle sort of realized, which is why they were able to hold out a bit and maybe eke out a slightly better price. But the quality that he should add to this team, I mean, Liverpool are already really good fun to watch. But in a match like yesterday, I mean, you go, oh yeah, Soberslein had his magic moment. What would Isak have done with a half chance? He could have made it 2-0 or 3-0, whatever. So yeah, really exciting. Where do they put Vert in now? Or Eketike? Who cares? It'll be cool to watch, right? But you know, the Times no longer does marks out of 10.

16:35I don't know why particularly. But we don't. This is not secret. It's out there. We don't do marks out of 10 for players anymore. But I turned to my son and I said, if I was Anfield and I was giving the marks out of 10, I'd have given 10 to Sir Bosley. Can we just, we've talked about... Because... Okay, no, no, no, no, no, no. No, he was playing out of position and doing a better than average job at doing that. In fact, he was eye-catching right back. Obviously, he's good at inverting because he knows what it is to be a midfielder. His energy levels were superhuman, I thought. He did not stop running.

17:12He talked about how did Liverpool do it. It was mainly, it wasn't just because he took a fantastic free kick. It was he embodied that sort of never give up. I can do any job you ask me to do. He was eye-catching beyond belief. He was a god. And I think if you're a god, you'd get ten. You've given tens before. You gave one to Michael Owen in the FA Cup final, right? Yeah. This isn't that good. No, no, no. But you can only give a mark. You can't say, I'm not going to give a ten because it's not the Champions League final. It's a match. It is a Premier League match. And in that match, how would you mark him off a ten?

17:50What did he do wrong? I'd give him an eight. don't be ridiculous I'm serious I've never given him a 10 I think I've only given a 9 once for like a hat trick that's about it and Mbappe poor bloke he's got a World Cup final hat trick and we weren't allowed to give him a 10 really? okay

18:05Gregor Robertson: okay let's go let's move on to the to the other side of north other half of north London which wasn't much happier this weekend and Alisson you were at Spurs nil Bournemouth won your intro summed up the world that Thomas Frank now inhabits Welcome, Thomas Frank, to the crazy world of Tottenham Hotspur after such a positive start. Only at Spurs, you feel, could the narrative be shattered so early on. And what was really, well, there was a lot that was fascinating, but what was really fascinating to me was everything, every single thing that Thomas Frank praised his players for in their defeat of Manchester City.

18:44Their press, their relentlessness, their bravery, everything about buying into the philosophy never giving up accuracy all the things he praised them for were exactly absolutely exactly what Bournemouth did to Tottenham and you just think what a crazy what a crazy Premier League it is that that can happen so at the start I wasn't really sure how I wanted the game to unfold because I am enjoying Thomas Frank proving himself at a higher level, if you like, with a more demanding club. But Bournemouth were, they were astonishingly good. And I think on this podcast, we've often talked about the advantages of pragmatism versus having a strong ideology.

19:31What Antonio Irola has is a strong ideology, but he has a sort of framework that works. Within that framework, I've seen him be pragmatic, so I'm not being hypocritical. But he's able to absorb some of his best players, especially in defence, leaving, bringing in players who are new to the Premier League. And they don't look new to the Premier League because his framework is so clearly thought out and what he demands of players. And we've been talking about the lack of bravery in Arsenal. Oh, my goodness. Bournemouth are brave. They are incredibly brave. So they will press and they will hurry.

20:11but they're not content with just doing that. They'll press Harry, get a clip on the ball and immediately they're thinking, how can we break forward? And they will pass a diagonal pass that's actually quite risky because they could immediately lose possession again and be caught on the back foot. But no, they go for it. Every time they won possession through sheer energy and relentlessness, they immediately, they weren't happy to kick it out of play or whatever, they immediately tried to set in motion a slick forward passing move. And a lot of them in themselves were absolutely delightful. David Brooks played probably the best game I've ever seen.

20:48They were saved at the foot cross. That was gorgeous. But he was a hub of everything. And everything he did had intelligence and nuance attached to it. They were, they were, and I kept thinking, my goodness, this was a team that was supposed to struggle because they've been selling like mad and making loads of money. but no, it was the only flaw was that they didn't score more goals but what a performance and I mean I honestly now think they might have an even better season this season than they did last.

21:18Gregor Robertson: James, it's pretty remarkable that they've sold you know, three out of the back four to huge clubs and they've started the season so brilliantly and the shot count was 20-5 in this game it was thoroughly deserved and as Alison said, there's been an interesting sort of conversation at the start of the season about Thomas Frank's pragmatism and his start to Tottenham being so impressive because, almost because, it's so different to Ange Postacoglu's dogmatism. But Uriola is kind of, as Alison said, there's some room for a little bit of tweaks when they play against the very best teams, but they're right in their face and they make it very hard for any opposition.

21:57Gregor Robertson: And really, if they're on their A game, it's very hard to match. I was thinking on the train on the way down here, one of the like, the main drivers, the main engines for the Premier League, being the amazing league that it is, is the ingenuity of the managers and sporting directors of the, I guess, smaller clubs, you'd call them. Because the forces, the kind of market forces against them are so strong. You know, Bournemouth this summer lost three of their first choice back four. And they're good people from last season. And it's so hard to replenish year on year on year and keep being as good as they are, which I think is such a...

22:45The strength of the kind of middle teams is such a huge part of what makes the Premier League so good at the moment. And I think it's that clarity of... You used the word framework, and I think that's exactly right. It's that clarity of framework that Irola has to be able to bring in three players. So, I can't, well, certainly, Tiaquite and Trouffer. New players. Brand new, brand new. And they honestly look like they've been playing for at least a whole season. Brand new players from Ligue 1, which, let's be honest, is several, you know, notches below the Premier League in terms of quality and intensity.

23:21And for them to be able to come in and immediately shine, as you say, it's just testament to his outstanding coaching job, really.

23:29Gregor Robertson: Hamza, you've been impressed by the start to the season of Alex Scott, somebody you saw play for the England's under-21s in the summer. Yeah, I think he's been really, really strong. His technical ability in midfield adds quite a lot to the team. His man marks at Bournemouth play with a man marking system, so they move from a sort of normal zonal shape into a man marking one, so it leaves you a bit exposed. Well, it can leave you a bit exposed, right? if, let's say, an opponent runs past there or loses their marker, suddenly everyone else is sort of man-to-man and there's a free man. So what do you do?

24:04You have to react. But he's added a lot of intensity in that midfield and the quality on the ball is really outstanding. Did he stand out to you, Alison Scott? Yeah, well, yes, he did. But I mean, Semenyo probably and David Brooks were the individual standouts. But there wasn't a single player who wasn't below a nine. now that we don't do marks out of 10 it's all I can think about is what I'd have given them marks of but yeah I mean yeah because there's a lot of onus on him it's generally 4-1-4-1 and he's the one and you kind of think well it's asking a lot if they're playing a big team away from home covering that space is an enormous challenge incredible engine I'd hope that he's in Thomas Dugall's thoughts going forwards I know that well Anderson was picked Waters was picked but I think Scott if he can keep playing like this and stay fit honestly I think he's a player that should be in the England squad conversation at least

25:01Gregor Robertson: hugely impressive win for Bournemouth and I had a hugely impressive win for West Ham the game I was at the weekend 3-0 win against Nottingham Forest we know you loved it we know you loved every minute I say hugely impressive I actually didn't get the memo about the marks out of 10 so I was doing marks out of 10 they were like 4s and 5s until the 80th minute in this game because it was woeful no one could find a teammate they were kicking the ball out of play this is both teams just strewn with errors and then suddenly in the 84th minute I think Jared Bowen from nowhere boom left foot goal and then it just went wild and Graham Potter was was given a sermon afterwards saying you know who dares to doubt me basically it's amazing how quickly things can change in the Premier League Did anyone dare to ask him hang on a minute you say who dares to doubt me was that your game plan to wait till so darn late in the match before you played any football?

25:55Gregor Robertson: Not in so many words, Alison, but it was, he was pleased. He would have been delighted with a point. Like, absolutely, no doubt about that because they set up quite, they changed their back four. They set up quite defensively. Like, this is obviously in the context of last Friday's 5-1 thrashing by Chelsea. The 3-0 defeat against newly promoted Sunderland on the opening day. The Carabao Cup exit against Wolves in midweek when Jared Bowen had exchanged some words with supporters afterwards just to spite the pressure a little bit more so he went back to a back four and he was really pleased with like the commitment and the sort of defensive rigour and all those kind of things and he would have been pleased about that without the three goal barnstorm and finish but that just made it a magnificent day that just gave West Ham did you see anyone see Jared Bowen's sort of mazy run towards the right of the very death which Callum Wilson took off oh my goodness I mean that just underlined the sort of like by the end of the game West Ham fans were shouting Ole to every pass and like you know serenading the players and Jarrod Bowen was beating everyone on the pitch an amazing run and almost scoring goal of the season.

27:03At least four people that he ran through it might have been five he just ran through everyone and he had the ball just he was just reaching for it it was on his toes and Callum Wilson steals in and just blazes it over right yeah it would have been one of the great goals and Callum Wilson just went my shot and ruined it but my favourite moment in the match was actually Lucas Pacat's celebration. That's one of the great celebrations. For people who haven't seen it, he sort of scores the goal, he moves over towards a crowd and he picks up the phone, like a pretend phone with his fingers. And then he raises one finger, as if he's shushing the phone, and then puts the phone down, he slams it, he throws the phone away, he's not putting it down, he throws it away.

27:49I hope it was cordless, otherwise And then he kisses a badge. Oh, what a way. Yeah, with all the links. I think he had a link to Villa that day. Yeah, Aston Villa. And he went, no, I'm staying. I love West Ham. That's a great celebration. I love that.

28:05Gregor Robertson: It was. Great scenes at full time as well. But is there a big picture for Forrest? Because behind the scenes there's turbulence. Was that reflected on the pitch, do you think? Or is that being too poetic about it? I mean Forrest have kind of I've actually been pretty good the first two games of the season and he started not bad in this game but then just deteriorated and Nuno was really punchy as well he said that he described the performance as shocking like among the worst of his time at the club and as you say he's scheduled to have talks with the owner Evangelos Maranakis after the game or this week, early this week during the international break to try and kind of patch over their differences, shall we say, over transfers and the arrival of the new global head of football or recruitment, Edu, who seems to have put Nuno's nose out of joint a little bit.

29:01Gregor Robertson: And so he admitted that this wasn't ideal timing ahead of those talks, but hoped that they would kind of separate this result from everything else it's been. Forrest also had the draw this week for their first European campaign in three decades. They faced Nuno's former club, Porto, be at the city ground, travelled to Real Betis, play Malmo, which is a rerun of the 1979 European Cup final under Brian Clough. Forrest as well, you look at their squad now, you look at their bench, and they brought in McAtee. Nuno last week said, I want a goalkeeper and two full-backs to complete my squad this week.

29:40Gregor Robertson: they've signed a goalkeeper and two fullbacks so they have a squad capable of competing, I think this is just an off day for Forrest Do you think they were guilty of underestimating West Ham because we all were? Perhaps, perhaps but I feel it was just one of those games where neither team it wasn't really befitting a Premier League game, honestly it was that bad both teams just kept kicking the ball out of play and there was a moment towards the end of the second half as well where Morgan Gibbs White, you know, ever reliable uber talented number 10 for Forrest tried to play a ball through for Igor Jesus, the substitute centre forward, with outside of his boot and just toe-poked it straight out for a goal kick and he was like, that summed up the game that was actually going to be my intro and then it sprung to life after that Callum Wilson, I should say, actually came on had a couple of chances looked like he was going to do something and he also scored a third, so it was a big day for West Ham I mean, you've got to look at their three big-name players delivered when it mattered.

30:43It's incredible when you say that the West Ham centre-backs were kicking the ball out, because if you think about Graham Potter, the goals that always used to go viral at Brighton and even back at Swansea were the goals that would start with the centre-backs or would start at the goalkeeper and would sort of be like the 30-pass moves that would take them all the way from back to front. So kind of amazing that that's what...

31:07Gregor Robertson: They're still kind of trying that under Potter. You know, the centre-half split, they get it at the six-yard box and they look to try and play, you know, stretch, leave a gap in midfield as, you know, is commonplace nowadays, the box midfield. Dink it into the forward. They've tried to do that a couple of times and it was just like 15 yards wide of full crook. It was awful. Anyway, not that anyone of a West Ham disposition will give a damn about that this morning because their season has left off. Anyway, still loads more to come in the second half. Bad day for City, among others. and we'll be back after the break to discuss that and more.

31:42Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by IBM. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, helping the championships use data and AI to create more engaging digital experiences for fans. That includes tools like Match Chat, which can answer questions during play, and Likelihood to Win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions. It's a practical example of AI in action, helping fans follow the tournament more closely while showing how organizations can turn data into useful insight. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com.

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34:00Gregor Robertson: Welcome back to the game podcast from the Times. I'm Gregor Robertson with Alison Rudd, James Geerbrandt and Hamza Khaliq Lunat. Okay, to Brighton next. And it was another difficult, difficult afternoon for Manchester City. And a great one for James Milner. The front page of the game today is a picture of James Milner. and I'd like to say a youthful James Milner as well but he kind of looked like 39 at the age of 16 as well, didn't he? Alongside the headline, the generation game. James Milner, of course, scored Brighton's equaliser from the penalty spot to become the second youngest and second oldest Premier League goalscorer after Teddy Sheringham and James Vaughan.

34:43What were you doing in December 2002 when he scored his first goal?

34:47Gregor Robertson: 2002 I would have been in Forest Youth team so I don't think I played I think I played against Leeds just after he signed he left for Newcastle so I didn't play against him but he is of my age and he's really you know he's putting me and a lot of people to shame still be playing football it's incredible it is incredible could he single-handedly host a podcast like Oscar Salva I think he could probably René René René René René René man. So what do we make of this? What do we make of City's start? I mean there was a lot of conversation coming into the season about City's overhaul, Pep Gardaí all his kind of stomach for this rebuild and Manchester City's reboot and I think he's kind of already looking a little bit worn down by this.

35:35There was also a lot of talk about well City will be fine because Rodri's back but it's over now isn't it? It used to be if Rodri started, City always won and now they don't. Was it 49 games? Yeah, so it's without defeat sorry they never lost they never lost no he was the magic person to continue the theme of magic you know and that now feels like not only have they lost a game where Rodri has started and played okay I don't think he was someone you would blame for the defeat but he came out afterwards and was really angry with his team for being making childish mistakes he said and needing to get a grip of things I think we were all very generous about City after their opening win, but then they were playing a relatively weak side in Wolves.

36:23What the last two games have shown is if you can, if you're playing City and if you can survive the first 20 minutes, they sort of, they sort of, that's their thing. They have that 20 minutes of complete superiority where they hit the ground running. And if you can absorb the shock of that and then try and impose your own personality on them. They do wilt a little bit. They just don't seem able to cope with what to do in the next phase when the first 20 minutes haven't gone well. So you had vignettes in this match like Van Hecker was clearly decided you have to treat them not like potential champions, treat them like a team that didn't cut the mustard last season.

37:09he was jabbering away to the forward line he was to Haaland in particular I think someone said don't poke the burr when he started doing that there was one moment when he went on this rampage that was rather silly and he took out two he literally took out two City players and one of his own players in that rampage but what does that say what does that say to City as a whole it says we're not scared of you we're not scared of you making quadruple substitution what does that say that says uh you know we're not scared I'm not scared that you've taken the lead we can do something and they do they don't they've just lost that superior aura if you like they look quite ordinary and as a sort of that acute creativity they used to have with players like De Bruyne has gone so that you don't really look at someone and think oh you know they can terrorise you at any moment.

38:08I mean, bringing on Doku, for example, he just runs a lot. He's not going to create something magical for you. So I think teams are going to increasingly treat them as Brighton did, which is if you show fearlessness and survive the opening 20 minutes. Because I think what I'm most impressed of by City is that they can hit a game at their A level. their opening 20 minutes is like anyone else's mid game point they start a game supremely well and look like a very well oiled machine so my tip for anyone facing City is do what you need to do for 20 minutes and then you can treat them like anybody else

38:49Gregor Robertson: So open for Brighton's winner, Brighton's winner Brilliantly taken but there's still their Achilles heel Yeah, it came from the wing but it actually originated just with the poor John Stones clearance if he just puts a few more yards of height on it it just goes out but he doesn't and the ball comes straight back he should have been watching the West Ham centre-backs and yeah it's a really gorgeous goal because James and I were watching it and there are a few others as well that were watching it and from a TV angle which is perfect you see Gruder have the ball and as they're breaking he has a player to his right and that is the non-footballer would say, oh, obviously pass there.

39:34That is the correct decision because he will be one-on-one with Draymond Trafford. But Gruda saw something that even us with this great television view couldn't see and he chopped inside and sent both... Was it Diaz at that point? Because Kustanov came off.

39:51Gregor Robertson: Yes. Yes. Sent both Diaz and James Trafford for a hot dog and then rolled the ball into the goal. It was really brilliant. finish. But I mean, City had their chances as well. I think there's an Oscar Bob moment and Haaland had two shots that he probably could have scored with earlier in the first half as well. Haaland's 80th goal in 100 Premier League appearances. I'd just like briefly take a pause to talk about how extraordinary it is that we still have a conversation about Haaland's merits in a Pep Guardiola team when that's his goal record. James? Yeah. I mean, do you agree with that kind of idea that possibly he's still not the perfect fit for Pep Guardiola's team?

40:37Yeah, I think I've said that. I think I've said that before. I mean, you know, as you say, the two things are sort of kind of improbable, aren't they? That he could, you know, be such an incredible goal scorer, but still kind of somehow make this team less than the sum of its parts. I just think this is such a kind of fascinating moment in Pep Guardiola's entire career, right? I mean, this is one of the most lauded, gilded managerial careers of all time. I don't think we've ever really quite seen him at a moment like this, where he's really having to do quite a full-scale rebuild. And a lot of the players that he is trying to do this, I mean, I think City still have a fantastic squad.

41:23They have some amazing players. but a lot of the newer players who I think can be really good. But they're quite sort of, they're quite not raw, but you've got like James Trafford, for example, who, yeah, I think he's a great, talented young keeper, but he really shone last season. But in the championship, you've got Kusinov, who's, you know, sort of remarkable lack of experience at the top level we sort of talked about before. You've got a really young talent in Oscar Bob. you've got even players like Reinders, Cherki, Marmush, who I think are all extremely talented and I think they could all be really good buys, but they're not players with an enormous amount of Champions League minutes under their belts.

42:11It's just, I think, really interesting to see if he can kind of pull this off and sort of restore City to their former heights. Do you think, we discussed this a few months ago, but do you think Guardiola is now post-peak? And I don't mean that that means that he's bad. It just means that he's passed his very best, which can still be elite. But do you think he's post-peak now in his sort of managerial career? Very difficult question to throw on you, obviously. I mean, I think at the moment, I guess you'd have to say yes. I mean, I think in sort of pure kind of raw numerical terms, I think you'd probably situate his peak at the kind of 190 plus point seasons and I think we'd all be surprised if City did a 90 plus point season this season.

43:04It could happen.

43:06Gregor Robertson: Do we think that there's reports that City prepare to let Ederson leave if they can bring in Donnarumma as a replacement? Does that feel like a good fit to anyone here? Hamza? No, when we discussed Donnarumma last year we mentioned that in Ligue 1 there are lots of criticisms from PSG supporters about how he played with the ball and it was great in the Champions League because when they needed to lean on him to make key saves, that's what he could do but in the league you're expected to have a far more proactive position with the ball at your feet and in the league, Manchester City dominate the ball, I know their possession share has declined over the past 3-4 years compared to what it used to be, it's no longer around sort of 65, 68, 70 % it was around 60 last season.

43:53So maybe they'll expect slightly less from him. But we saw the other day, James Trafford made that pass that was a mistake. You're still going to be asked to fulfill that role in the system. So I'm not sure exactly how he'll fit in. So I think this is absolutely fascinating, right? If Donnarumma goes to Mancetti, I think it's arguably the most fascinating decision of the entire transfer window. I think, going back a few years, I genuinely think one of the biggest moments, one of the most sort of influential moments in modern football, what football has become, was Guardiola coming into Manchester City and immediately defenestrating Joe Hart, saying, right, Joe Hart is a great player.

44:35He's been an incredible servant to the club. He's got great experience. But I want to play football in a certain way, and he doesn't align with how I want to play football. It doesn't matter how experienced he is, what he's won, his kind of standing in the dressing room. I'm going to play a certain brand of football and he doesn't fit with it, right? And I think that's been that in hindsight looks so influential if you look at how managers behave now, right? How many managers say this player is not for me. Guardiola, I think, started that because it was such a successful call ultimately to get rid of Hart and replace him with Edison.

45:11And now you have a situation where Donnarumma possibly doesn't quite fit or doesn't seem to fit with what we think a Pep Guardiola team is about. But is his value the fact that he is unlike all those players that I just mentioned? OK, he may not be the most brilliant passer out of the back, but he absolutely is a top tier player, hugely experienced. he's a winner, he's won things with Italy, he's obviously just come off a winning season at the Champions League, he's a big personality. It's a sort of, it would seem to be the most kind of un-Guardiola-like decision, but is it a kind of recognition on his part that we need a bit of that?

45:56As you say, they've lost a bit of that with De Bruyne. Is it a recognition that we need a little bit of that just experience, stature?

46:04Gregor Robertson: I mean, if so, why do you sign James Trafford? if the opportunity comes up to sign the world class player even if you planned for other things I think you do take it now I have reservations about the passing side of this game but I guess you could liken it to Haaland as well as James just has said but then the question always is goal difference does signing this player increase your chances of scoring more than it decreases your chances of conceding or the opposite so decreases your chances of conceding so if Donnarumma can decrease the likelihood that City concede more than he loses some value in scoring goals then it's worth it.

46:43Take a good shot stopping goalkeeper out of Manchester and replace him with one that can pass the ball a lot but not save as many opportunities.

46:52Gregor Robertson: Good luck Hamza, let's go to Manchester United We needed an injury time penalty to beat Burnley. Does this kind of sum up where Manchester United, the modern Manchester United are after the humiliation to Grimsby at the hands of Grimsby in midweek. No, I mean, that's a very good point. Does it wipe the slate clean after what happens in Grimsby, in a wet Grimsby? No, it does not. It really does not. Because for a start, I think Burnley are going to struggle away from home a lot. So to score twice at Old Trafford and they're very, very close to taking the draw. And for anyone connected to Manchester United to feel that this is a triumph that they were able to snatch a late penalty does not.

47:39I don't think they feel like it's a triumph.

47:41Gregor Robertson: I don't. They felt like it was a major relief. There's been a lot of discussion that it's really not fair. Really not fair on Amorim to still slag him off when he's just won a game. You know, it's, yes, relief maybe, but I'm almost doubtful that they should be feeling relief, to be perfectly honest. I really am. They should have no emotions. No, no, well. No, no, but how can you feel relieved when you've watched what you've watched? They have, Man United have bought some amazing players. Their cup spilleth over in terms of the options they have. And yet they still have the fundamental problem of a manager who increasingly with everything he says, whilst, yes, I agree, he's likable and lovable, but he seems too young for the job, too naive for the job, too inflexible for the job.

48:33it's like some sort of cartoon now where he's a ludicrous figure. I don't even know why you appoint someone on the basis that they love one formation. I don't get that in the first place. And for him to just refer back to it all the time and stick with his 3-4-3 is... It's ludicrous.

48:51Gregor Robertson: You defended him a bit in midweekend with a column, didn't you? His system's not quite as rigid as everyone makes out, but midfield's an enormous issue. Oh, I read that piece, Hamza. You weren't actually arguing that there's genius behind changes. When the formation falls apart, it's because he's got the wrong players in it. Yeah, but as in any formation without a midfield is a crap formation. That's the fundamental point here. You could play 4-2-3-1, 4-3-3-5-2, whatever, right? But if you're playing in the Premier League and you've got Casemiro as your pivot and you don't have the dynamism to contend in midfield, in a league that has more sprints, more high-intensity runs, loads of second balls teams are going man to man more than ever and you've got a guy who literally just can't cover space and compare them to other teams great teams that have had similar problems I mean take Rodri out of City last season you've got a great team and suddenly they can't cover midfield and suddenly they're vulnerable in midfield that's how important the midfield is to all tactical systems take Liverpool a few seasons ago they tried to go for four trophies and they were closer than any team has ever come they got the Champions League final got 92 points in the league this was a very good team.

50:02The following season, Fabinho couldn't last. His legs were gone. Henderson was playing midfield and they had Harvey Elliott and Fabio Carvalho starting first match of the season at Fulham. They got ran through midfield week on week. These aren't bad teams. These aren't bad systems. These aren't bad managers. But you do fundamentally need the players to execute a certain level to compete. And I don't think the formation is, I mean, formations are just frameworks. How many teams build up in a 3-2-2-3? Like Loads, like at least 10 in the league, right? And that's fundamentally what they're doing.

50:38It's just on paper, it's 3-4-2-1. And I think there's far too much emphasis on the system when the players are far more important and Manchester United have misallocated their resources by spending a lot on number 10s where they've got quite a few already when they should have just brought a good centre midfielder or two good centre midfields that could cover space. Sorry, James, you're going to... No, I mean, I was just going to say, I think, like, just clearly there are lots of sticks to beat Ameren with at the moment, right? But I think the idea that he is inflexible and wedded to one formation, I mean, yeah, it's true.

51:15But, like, you know, Jurgen Klopp played 4-3-3, you know, completely unbroken sequence for several seasons. You know, Mikel Arteta basically just has the one system that Arsenal have played for the last few seasons. I don't think that in itself is like a huge sort of character defect, like on his part. I think the thing for United is they're in such a deep, deep hole, and partly because the Premier League is so strong. I was saying to Hamza yesterday, if you look at the current Opta global club rankings, there are four Premier League clubs above Real Madrid. that are like something like seven, maybe more like Premier League.

52:02You know, you've got like Crystal Palace and Brighton are like the 11th and 12th best clubs in the world. Every single Premier League club is rated higher than Sevilla, the serial Europa League winners. So climbing up this ladder is going to be such a difficult and frankly, probably slow process. Everyone wants there to be this big, this one thing that will unlock change at United. They want to say, you know, like a formation change that's just going to unlock a sudden, you know, new higher level of performance or a player signing. I think the kind of unsexy reality for United is they've got to like just try and be get a little bit better each season.

52:51and if they do that for the next four seasons... What was it you mentioned about Fulham? The 31st best team in the world. Yeah, so Fulham are like 31st in the ratings at the moment. So like, you know, if you think of the old Champions League was like theoretically the best 32 teams in Europe. So, you know, that, I mean, that kind of just shows you, doesn't it, how strong the Premier League is. It's like... And very quickly, it's not like Ten Hag didn't change systems. He had roughly similar players and he tried to change different things and they still got battered. Why? Because the midfield wasn't very good.

53:24It's all about the midfield. It's all about the players fundamentally. How good are your players? And then the manager adds or subtracts to that. Maybe, and some people would say that Amorim is subtracting from that at the moment, but I would say fundamentally, the players aren't quite there yet. They just need to improve the level of those.

53:41Gregor Robertson: Well, I'm sure that's a conversation that will run and run. The Times deadline day live file is reporting that Jadon Sancho is close to joining Aston Villa on loan and Manchester United are looking at two goalkeepers, Emiliano Martinez and Sen Lehmans goalkeeper is definitely one spot that I think we can agree they need to fill but moving on let's go to Chelsea now the controversial, probably the most controversial game of the weekend given how much it was dominated by the referee Robert Jones and the VAR, Michael Salisbury, who made a couple of really controversial decisions. The first was to rule out a goal by the Fulham midfielder, Josh King, 18.

54:26Gregor Robertson: Huge moment for this kid. Ruled out because his teammate in the build-up, Rodrigo Muniz, was adjudged to have stepped on Trevo Shalaba in the build-up, as he was doing a Maradona turn. And the assistant referee, the assistant VAR, sorry, Michael Salisbury, asked the referee to take take another look like can anyone anyone fathom how this goal was ruled out no I mean what is why is football so huge it's because it's universal and everyone knows what beauty it can produce and it's very it's a very simple you don't need gadgets you just need anything that's round play on any surface and everyone just dreams of doing something skillful or wonderful they did they did not introduce VAR to rule out beautiful goals.

55:17It's so against the whole principle of what fairness might be in football. And, you know, they dumped Salisbury for his error from the next match he was due to officiate in because Howard Webb has, you know, acknowledged, PGML has not acknowledged that a mistake was made. But it's unfathomable that they're making that mistake. I don't know. I mean, I'm the analogy queen. I'm struggling to find an analogy of where you'd make such a stupid, what would be an analogy? We'll come back to you. No, no, no, no, no. I don't know. Going into McDonald's and finding that they've decided they're going to have turtle soup because they've completely forgotten what fast food is and they want to spend six hours making turtle soup for you.

56:10Gregor Robertson: Does turtle soup exist? Is that a thing? Yes. But it's ridiculous. Even if it doesn't exist, that makes the analogy better because this is just poking holes in something that doesn't need changing. Football is beautiful. Why are you there trying to... This is like a parody. This decision was a parody of everything we've grown to hate about VAR and everything we were scared about what VAR would become. it's yes if you if you if you run the camera back you might see that there was a little bit of a incidental contact in doing a lovely pirouette turn and if you show the referee on a monitor just the the connection between the two feet and you show it to him 16 times in little clips on a tiny little monitor he might he's going to be great basically he's brainwashed because he's told by the VAR people, that's a foul, that's a foul, it's a foul in a build-up to a goal.

57:07You must disallow the goal. He didn't see anything wrong in the game. And we've been told many, many times by Howard Webb, there's a high bar. We're only looking for completely obvious errors. We want the referees on the pitch, their view of what's happened to be paramount. And it undermined everything there. If I was Howard Webb, I'd just be so embarrassed, really, to be connected with this. I remember when you mentioned you were doing, well, you are still doing the referee course, you mentioned that one of the things that referees think about is before a chance that may lead to a goal to give the foul, just in case.

57:43Do you think that sort of attitude is informing the process? Because I get the sense it is, right? Where you're a little bit cautious about allowing something that could determine a game because goals are such big moments that the VAR may have just thought in this moment, oh that is a key moment and I don't really want to be to allow a contentious moment to help define a game because once it's 1-0 you're much more likely to win do you think that that that principle of give the foul if you're not sure just because the outcome of allowing it to run could be so great do you think that informs how they think there's a good chance yeah I think there's a bit

58:19Gregor Robertson: of sort of inherent fear about not giving a potential game-changing decision uh or you know a decision that leads to a goal that used to inform a decision in game and it still does to an extent but now I think it probably informs De VAR as well full and very hard done by in that 2-0 defeat to Chelsea, just wanted to end by moving on to Crystal Palace 3 Villa 0 and looking at Mark Gehe in particular because Gehe, as Hamza you reported on Thursday night he continued to play on through amid the transfer speculation bids from Liverpool being placed played on Thursday night in the conference league qualifier played and scored an absolute world in this game and it's sort of in contrast to Isak, to Wissa to Nicholas Jackson even, although we can talk about that as a slightly different scenario what have we made of this sort of summer of discontent and people going on strike and Mark Gahey's sort of attitude in contrast to that i think the players if they want to force a move uh they can act largely how they see fit to be honest but at the same time i think it's very admirable that gay has decided that he's not going to do that and it's very respectful to the club but the club is still in a very difficult position because oliver glasner says we can't let him go and steve parrish realizes that getting some money in.

59:51Let's say they get 40 million for him. That means they could, in PSR terms, you could use that to buy a lot more. Let's say you got 100 million in for a player, right? You could technically spend 500 millions worth in that window because of the money that you've got, because of how that is spread over your calculations over the next five years. So they could actually use this money to good effect, but it's very late. Next year.

1:00:19Gregor Robertson: for the countings well today no no it would have to be next year because the count when you book that profit is only in a certain year's accounts it's all very complicated and boring but what you're saying is true it's the same story with Newcastle and the sale of ISAC will unlock an enormous amount of spending power for them moving forward but back to the players there's this whole kind of conversation about about players going on strike. Take Nicholas Jackson, for example. Nicholas Jackson was performed pretty well last season, was kind of from nowhere cast aside by Chelsea, was on the verge of a move to Bayern Munich, a loan move to Bayern Munich, and then suddenly because Liam De Lappe was injured, said, oh no, you can't get that move that was going to allow you to play more football.

1:01:09Gregor Robertson: Could you imagine that? Where does the power really lie here? I think that's a specific case, And I think in that case, I think Nicholas Junkson has every right to say, well, actually, I agree with going on loan to Bayern Munich. And I think this is an excellent chance for me to reignite my career. And it's really unsettling to arrive in Germany and then be told to fly back again. Can we not find a way for this to still happen? I think all of that is perfectly legitimate. at what I think other players should be hugely embarrassed about is watching Mark Gahey not only play, not only still captain, but play really, really well while all this uncertainty is hovering over him whilst they're on strike.

1:01:51So someone like Wisser downing tools, removing his iconography of the club from his Instagram account, ease up, we don't have to talk about what he's done. I just, in what way is going on strike helpful when your agent, no, your agent does all that stuff. It's their career. Mark Gahey, if he really wants to move to Liverpool, can still go at the end of the year and he'll still be wanted by them and they're largely okay with it. And he knows that he will get that move because he's a very good player and it's only a year away. But if you're Alexander Issac and you're 25, 25, 22, or if you're Wisser, who's 29, right, you might not get this opportunity again to play for a Champions League club.

1:02:38And Issac wants to move to a potential Champions League winner. You don't get these opportunities coming up very often. Yes, you sign the contract. But you don't have to go on strike. It's their career. They can choose. They can say, well, God, I'm really good at what I do. They can still say that while showing while they're really good at what they do. He can't win the Champions League with Newcastle this season, can he? And just on Jackson, the guy who makes his move to Chelsea thinks this is my moment, I'm going to be a really big player for a big club. He has a couple of red cards. It's a bit stupid, but all right.

1:03:09But he scored some goals. And suddenly he's dropped so far down the pecking order that there are two players ahead of him. And suddenly from thinking I've got a career at top level club, I won't have one anymore, I'm now in the bomb squad. And then out of nowhere, buy Munich, come for you. You go, oh, my God, I thought the next year of my life was going to be awful. Not actually awful. You're still getting paid, whatever. But as in, I can't do my job. I really enjoy playing football. And now I'm not going to play at all. And then Bayern Munich said they want you. Oh, brilliant. I can go to Bayern Munich.

1:03:39They're an even bigger club. I can get my career not just back on track, but I can take it a step further. This is amazing. And then the guy who replaced you, you're essentially being asked to wipe up the blood from your own assassination. And he's going, why do I have to go back? Bayern Munich want me. I'm going to play them. No, no, no. We would like you on the bench to cover for João Pedro in case he gets injured and maybe do a few minutes in European competition, the cup competition. This is my life. This is my career. I'm an international forward. I am quite good at my job. And you're just reducing me to a bench player because as a young player I signed a contract.

1:04:22Yeah, it was a massive contract, the runs of 2033. But this isn't a way to treat people, I don't think. And the clubs can't have it both ways where they lock the player down and then get them to force moves in the first place and then get upset when they try to do likewise. Lots of players, when they're not talented or when they're injured or past their best, are cast away without a second thought. and I think players have the right to look after themselves and their families I agree Hamza

1:04:52Gregor Robertson: anyway we'll see how the final hours of the transfer deadline day unfurl Martin Hardy's reporting now that Johan Wissler has arrived in Newcastle for his medical so going to strike works on things yeah we'll see you in four weeks good luck Hamza, James, Alisson thank you very much for joining me and we'll be back on Thursday

1:05:19Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast, which is currently sponsored by IBM. IBM has worked with Wimbledon for more than 30 years, helping the championships use data and AI to create more engaging digital experiences for fans. That includes tools like Match Chat, which can answer questions during play, and Likelihood to Win, which uses live match data to offer near real-time predictions. It's a practical example of AI in action, helping fans follow the tournament more closely while showing how organizations can turn data into useful insight. To learn more about how IBM helps create smarter business, visit ibm.com.

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