Liverpool, Chelsea and Madrid prove 'Mo Money Mo Problems.'

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times.

0:30and Sunday Times Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea Celtic and Aston Villa striker Tony Cascarino, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here straight from the nativity, burst into the studio just as we hit record, singing his Christmas songs full of festive spirit. Joy is half an hour at home. I was at a place last night and it was like there was a pub crawl and there was a pub crawl to raise money for a food bank. A pub crawl to raise money for a food bank. That's got to be like, there's something wrong there. Exactly, so there we go. And so everyone came in and they got the kids and stuff like that and the kids went around and it was a pub crawl and a carol service.

1:10Sorry, I forgot to mention the key part. And the carol sort of thing. No carols. No carols? No carols. No songs. No carols. And I'm thinking, oh, we've just been mugged off. We've just been absolutely mugged off. A carol service with no carols. They should have got it in a girls reception class because they were brilliant. I've got full proud now at the moment here. I was going to say, we're old. The jukebox was the thing, wasn't it? Oh my God, we're off now. Put a jukebox on, that was great. You're not that old, Tony. Jesus, son. I just say, we live in an upside down world. So many things, aren't there?

1:49I knew we were going to go off on one. Cassasaurus. No, but we do, we live in an upside down world. how can you have a carol service or a carol night on a pub crawl and there's no one single song it's like trick or treating when we're not asking for anything we're just going to oh he does as well it's a bit like it's a bit like spending 125 million pounds on a striker and being completely useless to the scoring come on stop trying to get it back to football we want to talk about the things that might happen I mean it's always a sprawling start to a Thursday show but this is definitely in the festive spirit but as I say I've desperately tried to bring it back to football there and I think we probably should because we're in danger of doing a football podcast without any football, which would be a bit like a carol service with no songs.

2:31Let's start with Liverpool, as I said in that intro, which feels about like 20 minutes ago now, but Liverpool dominating the headlines all week. Mo Salah, before we get to the action, Gregor, we discussed this with Alison and Tom on Monday, but Tony and Martin, Martin, you've written columns about him this week already. Tony... Written and rewritten. Written and rewritten, I imagine. Yes, absolutely. I mean, just very quickly from both of you, shocked, surprised by his actions, and do you think there's any way back for him? Just both of those things very quickly from both of you. Shocked, no. It sort of happened under Klopp, and it sort of happened this time last year when negotiations over a new contract where he said there'd been no contact by the club.

3:11I didn't believe him. I didn't believe him. And my bottom line is on Mo Salah, if he's hard, I think it's a simple question. Do you want to stay at this football club? And if the answer is no, go. we'll find a solution Martin surprised at all Tony makes a good point about last season because I had a column in the Sunday Times in the first edition that needed to be changed for the second edition because he'd come out and said what he said so I can't sit there oh yes it was completely expected because it obviously wasn't but I was what surprised me what I was surprised by was that he would burn his bridges and that's what it seemed like to me.

3:52You just looked at that and thought, well, potentially there is no way back. And Slott's words after the Inter Milan game seemed to suggest that. It seemed to suggest, well, it's up to you to apologise. You know, I'm not going to meet you half way here. You've got to apologise. So, you know, potentially he has burnt his bridges at Liverpool. I did think, and that was borne out on the night, I did think that the fans were backslot because, you know, that club, once you've got, to put this very crudely, once, you know, Salah is now outside the tent peeing in. Yeah. And, you know, so they back the manager.

4:38They all back the manager against him. Do you think that's more striking when it's a tough time? You know, you talk about that kind of camp. You know, you get that mob mentality of like, no, no, if you're not with us, you're against us. I think this could actually be quite useful for Slott because at a time when the fans were beginning to turn a little bit, at a time when it was being questioned how long they could sustain this run and everything, suddenly there is a way that they're all on the same side again. And it isn't hard to get them back on the same side with Arnie Slott because he won the title in his first year.

5:20So he's got a lot of credit in the bank. If you were losing the player that he was last year with Salah, that's totally different. But it's not like you've even lost someone who was winning matches for you all the time because it happened at the start of the season. It certainly hasn't happened since those first five games. So I think he could turn this to his advantage. Just a quick one on that. He's been left out, obviously, a few occasions. They've won at West Ham, wasn't used, not been used or even taken to Inter and they've won there. So as Martin said, it's helping slot in a small way. You're not leaving a star and you're going, God, we could really do it.

6:00And there's another issue there. But we all love Mo Salah and what we've seen him do. But I'm just always saying, if you don't want to stay somewhere, you're not doing Liverpool a favour by, oh, yeah, I'll stay. And then his heart's not been in it. because there was a period under Klopp where he'd come back from Morocco, African nations, didn't play particularly well, slightly injured and there was a little bit of, you know, you could feel a rift between Klopp and Salah and that looked like the end to me then. And from nowhere, that last season, and fair play to everybody involved, Salah included, he turned up and got lots and lots of goals and they won the title.

6:39Yeah. Obviously, I mentioned Saudi clubs circling for him. We know they've been interested in him before, but not necessarily to the kind of fullest level of where we thought a deal would happen. We've seen it with other star players from the Premier League this summer with Bruno Fernandes and stuff. It's not necessarily always a guarantee that, oh, well, a star player wants to leave. He's on absolutely massive wages. Oh, off he goes to Saudi Arabia. Is there any chance with this as it continues to progress of where Mo Salah says, well, no, I'm too big for Saudi or I want to play somewhere else and that actually he can't get a move.

7:09Is it either he stays and plays or he leaves? Is there a third world here, do we think, at all? I think if he leaves, he goes to Saudi Arabia. I think that's been the case for a couple of years now. There was the bid, there was meant to be a bid of£150 million, wasn't there, from how it is he had, I think it is,

7:33which Liverpool turned down. I think last year, I think he's on record saying that if he hadn't have signed for Liverpool, that he would have gone to Saudi Arabia and that basically he stayed at Liverpool rather than Saudi Arabia. Those are the two choices. The problem they've got, two of the biggest Saudi clubs that have been interested in him haven't got space in the team at the moment. They would have to let people go. They would have to make space for him. It's he had of got the first dibs because how it works It's a strange thing. You're signed by the league. And then dished out, basically.

8:15Yeah, exactly. Which is a really strange thing. But they do have certain rules within that. One of them is whoever the first club interested was maintains. Really? So they stayed. I was here first. Yeah. If he decides to go to Saudi, if he had got the first refusal on him. Now, there's two other clubs that are meant to be interested that have got space. One of them is the new club that's starting up in Neom, but that's miles from anywhere and not particularly appealing, I wouldn't have thought. There's another club, the club that's owned by Aramco. I'm trying to remember the name of it. Anyway, it's the club that's owned by Aramco.

8:58They have got space. They have got the money. They are not one of the PIF clubs. Right. They're not one of those, Itsyhad, Al-Hilal. they're not one of those Alcadzia apparently I'm reading our article on the Times website there we go so they're meant to they're meant to have the money to do it now does does does Mo want to go that's kind of what I mean does he want to go to it's quite a pivot mid-season isn't it but if you know do you want to go to one of the Saudi Arabian clubs that is not one of the biggest Saudi Arabian clubs you know even though obviously what you'd be thinking is I can make them one of the biggest Saudi Arabian clubs.

9:39They've got a new stadium, I think you'll find, 47 ,000 capacity, but they won't be filling it at the moment. They haven't got the fan base there. So it's not perfect. It is a bizarre story. It's not perfect. The move is perfect. The idea of this is primary Islamic footballer in the country going to the Saudi Arabian pro, all of that sort of thing. He's a massive, massive name in that region. is a hugely important figure. So that part of it is all perfect. But that part of it is all perfect and falling into place in the summer. It's not necessarily falling into place in January. It needs a little bit of work in January.

10:21Gregor, some reflections from you on some of the points the guys have made in a couple of days of the Salah story developing since Monday. Yeah, I mean, Slott's interview was the most interesting thing in the last few days, and actually, you know, Clarence Aedorf providing the journalist at Rigor Relay. asking the difficult questions. He could tell that they were difficult as well. It doesn't look like he intends to speak to him. He intends to try and bring him back into the fold. He's essentially saying, I didn't say it explicitly, but you knew what he was saying, that it's on him. It's on him to say, to come and see him and talk about what he's done, the hand grenade that he's thrown into the changing rooms, explain why he did it.

11:03And if not apologise, has come pretty close I think so I think we can all agree that's not going to happen it'd be amazing now for that to happen so I think there's a good chance it runs throughout the AFCON and then there might be discussions between his agent and the club they'll obviously find out what the options are and then coming back to it like is there any world where he doesn't go to Saudi and he's maybe in limbo I just can't see Liverpool would have to swallow just take their medicine and like even if they're paying you know they're only taking a fraction of his wages from another club in Europe or whatever for a loan till the end of the season when they can re-evaluate, they would do it because you cannot have Mo Salah taking pictures in the gym while they're in Italy That's a modern thing isn't it?

11:47Oh he's lonely sad me on my own in the gym Also working hard. Oh yeah I'm working hard but I'm lonely and sad. I'd love to have a gym to myself, wouldn't it be great? But you want to go, but this you've brought on yourself mate, you know, you weren't on your own in the gym were you until you came out and slaughtered the manager. No one tells modern football ballers that and there's a number of other issues at Liverpool so Liverpool have to move on because there's not one problem and that's the big deal well speaking of moving on let's move on to talk about some of those other issues and talk about that game against Inter Milan Tony I was watching this game and thought you're looking for the kind of narrative oh they look so much better without him this is a different set up I'm not necessarily sure that was true we started with a bit of quick fire can we all just have a little bit of a moment for Florian Vert's atrocious dive oh mate it was a children.

12:33I'm sorry, I'm not having it. I'm not having it. I didn't know whether any of you and Gregor... I cannot see how a referee can go over and look at that and think, well, that's a natural reaction. That's a natural fall. I mean, throwing the, you know, everything about it. It's been lasered. Christmas plays. It was like Panto, wasn't it? It was absolutely ridiculous. Gregor, I was picturing this moment on the show as we were coming in and thinking, yeah, but you can't do that, Tom. You can't do that anymore. It wasn't that bad, was it? or are you in the camp of you can't grab someone's shirt in the box?

13:06You can't, but it's still a ridiculous time. Oh, thank God for that. I mean, thank God. I was worried. I didn't think... Both things can be true. I didn't think Vultmadder was much better, actually. I mean, there's... Yeah, yeah, yeah. We'll get on to that. Yeah, we'll come to that. That was a stinker. But, Tony, just generally on Liverpool's performance overall, before we get into one man in particular, what did you think? Good in parts? I thought it was quite striking that when they had the goal disallowed, they seem to dip again you know that confidence is so fragile it's still there isn't it did you see some positive signs from them I mean you have Alisson on a lot doesn't you she misses the Klopp fast football and there's definitely slowed down a bit at Liverpool that's for sure it was a much more safer game the only positive I could really say is that Liverpool looked way better defensively you know they didn't play particularly well they caused problems obviously at Eketike and Isaac Eketike was far better by the way but they look I just was as a fan as well I'm looking and thinking please can you keep a clean sheet you know just one because their goal against Colm this year has been disastrous so so from that point of view away win regardless of what dodgy penalty but I think they were a bit unlucky as well with the handball with the header I think in some worlds that could have been a goal you knew it was you knew I didn't know I mean I was watching it on the box and I think it was Mark Clattenberg and he's talking and I'm thinking mate this is going to be disallowed I wouldn't disallow it as a UEFA referee don't know that this is going to be disallowed he was using the Premier League come UEFA but the UEFA rules are so much I'm not saying they're good but they're so much stricter than the Premier League rules and so the minute you saw it sort of hit the guy's arm you're thinking no this is going to get disallowed I mean I've seen far worse than that very true well one player I wanted to ask out in particular and Tony's already touched on it there is Alexander Izak 11th of December now we talk so much about pre-season and a lack of it and his dramatic summer he looks an absolute shadow of the player that we played for Newcastle doesn't he in this game he's Eka TK making runs offering for the ball good touches quick feet and his act was just kind of like wandering about next to him he looks lost doesn't he he's on the fringe of the game and just to give you some numbers Tom because I checked it out earlier today on this because it's 14 games he's played right He's been subbed 10 times.

15:31Subbed. And he's come on four times. So he's not done 90 minutes. He's never finished 90 minutes. He's not done 90 minutes for Liverpool once this season so far. He's done it for Sweden. He's had a few games. But his goal record for Sweden is only one in the last six. So he's been out of sorts for a long time, Isaac. Now, I touched on... We talked to her in the season about Isaac and missing pre-season. And I said to her, it's money in the bank time. Which always... The old idea was... If I go back to my own career, my worst season I ever had was when I left Villa, I had a disrupted summer because I could have gone to Southampton and ended up going Celtic.

16:07And I turned up and I was nowhere near fit. Nowhere near, compared to previous seasons. And I struggled like hell. It took me, but we're now into December. That's my point. I wanted to ask both you and Gregor, how long do we give him in this pre-season thing? how long do we give him with the summer drama before you start going you should be up to speed he's not playing in a pretty dysfunctional team too that would be a big help to him given like it was a disruptive summer for him but it's been a really disrupted summer and season for the entire club and he's not it's not a fair point think about the way he played for Newcastle he was always like if you picture him you're always picturing him running into space and behind the opposition's back four he's not getting those opportunities very often you always saw that or you picture him getting on the end of a cross by Murphy or by Barnes Or by Gordon A searing Kind of Dynamic forward As in he's The figurehead He's the focal point Sometimes he would Create goals for himself too But he'd still have A bit more space around him And yeah That's the sharpness That he looks like he's lacking But you could do with He's not getting it He's not going to get it When you're playing for Liverpool He's playing against Low blocks a lot of the time So it's a different Challenge for him And I think I'm still very confident He'll come good Because he's a great player But he is playing In a different team now and he's facing a very different challenge in terms of the way teams set up against him.

17:27Okay, Gregor. So when do you think we will see a change in performances from his act? I mean, I know it's a$64 ,000 question, but are we looking at... It's a$125 million question. It's not very much now. It's a question. It's a question. It's a question. Yeah. The managers, obviously, if he keeps subbing him and using him and I feel for him because he has lost a bit of belief and Gregor's spot on with different scenarios going to a different club the wingers that he played with were way more hard working and the hard working wingers that were at Liverpool before like Diaz you know and Jotter who could do the work rate of other players they're gone yeah there's another winger on the pitch really in this game no there wasn't it was the two fullbacks wasn't it because of the way they played but he just looks so out of sorts but even on the out of sorts thing you know there was a moment we were discussing this before we hit record on this tone of when Eketika was out wide, I think, and he was kind of jinking, trying to find some space, put a cross into the box, and he's actually just kind of ambling around and things.

18:28You know, you two say on this show all the time, like, when the going's tough, you just show effort, running, desire, all those kind of cliches that we talk about, but that's what the fans want to see. Surely you can still deliver that, even if you're not banging in the goals and a figurehead for an attack. Surely that's got to be the most worrying thing, hasn't it, for Liverpool? Yeah, but I can tell you, one of the biggest lack of confidence I had, and I've talked to other forwards about this, is when you start thinking instead of naturally doing, you're on your heels slightly. I mean, when I watched Clive Allen at his very best, who was an incredible goal scorer, Clive, I used to think he seems to anticipate things because he wasn't quick.

19:04He was nowhere near as quick as Izzak, but he anticipated everything. He always would be thinking quite quickly. I look at Izzak now and I feel like it's a delayed sort of reaction to something. So he's thinking, oh, I better make that run rather than just making the run. It looks uncertain. I think he's quite lucky in some ways. Because people are talking about the fee and they're saying, oh, you know, this is weighing heavy on his shoulders or whatever. Take the fee away. He's nowhere near this team. The only reason that Arnie Slott is persevering is because he's got£125 million of somebody else's money, basically.

19:41And, you know, they are venture capitalists, investment. You know, this is what it's about. So you want to see your investment on the pitch. There's£120 million, you know. He's£40 million more than the other guy. Yeah. But actually, if you look at it at the moment, it's Eke Tike that looks like the£125 million player. Yeah. And he should be starting. So you're saying if Izaak Tike had cost£60 million from somewhere else, he wouldn't be anywhere near? If he costs, say, what Liam DeLapp costs Chelsea or something like that, he's not in the team. Yeah. It's simply, I mean, his own... So they're carrying him, basically.

20:18He's only in the team because Slott feels the onus on the responsibility. He's a coach. You know, well, mate, make this work. You talk about, Gregor, there's no wingers on this pitch and you've talked about the way he played and I think all listeners can kind of envisage that. That was what was great about him at Newcastle. I'm talking about Eketike trying to put crosses in and things. Any signs that they could play together with something we've talked about before? or the idea that they didn't, no way they wanted to buy it. They don't look as if they can play together. They don't look as if they were bought to play together.

20:52They can say, Liverpool have been insistent, I've said this so many times, there is no history with Liverpool of buying an£80 million understudy. You know, they don't do that. They didn't buy Virgil van Dijk and another guy who cost the same money as Virgil van Dijk to play in case Virgil van Dijk got injured. You know, same with Alisson. the only way they play together is Ekitiki's the number 10 as much as Tony where does that mean, where does that put the other bloke could cost 100 million as much as Tony thinks that there may be a future where two number 9s are playing together up front I don't think that's but there's one fundamental fault in their game and they're both obviously very gifted but both of them take a lot of touches so it's not instant, like I get the pass if you look at a Bergkamp and you see Henri the pass is coming you know and you have many partnerships like that I don't see that Eketike and he is he looks far better and as a real live player he takes a lot of touches and when you're taking a lot of touches it's like having a winger I used to people would say to me Peter Biegri alright I never played with him and people would say how do you think you'd play with Peter Biegri I'd say well I'd be lost because Peter goes one way then goes the other and that I said there's a centre forward you don't know when the cross is coming You never know when it's coming in.

22:12Eketike takes too many touches, but he's going to be a wonderful player for Liverpool, I'm sure, but not with Isaac. Because Isaac needs to know when the ball's coming from Jacob Murphy. The early one that came in the other night, I think Isaac was surprised he actually put it in. Because he normally takes a touch. If you watch his game, he takes a lot of touches, keeps holdable. There was a moment in the game against Inter where he got it and he went about three or four ways with the player and they end up doing a simple pass and you could feel like everyone go, and even in commentary I said, well, he's done well there.

22:46He's kept the ball, but he's kept it for about 20, because sometimes when players keep the ball a long time, it affects others. So are we really coming down to the idea that actually Liverpool's much fabled recruitment model cocked it up this summer? I don't understand. Look, if I had a plan... It's easy to say now. I mean, let's be honest, we all sat doing the preview shows. Yeah, yeah, going amazing. You talked about the fact they're buying two guys to that value fair play you did but we still looked at their squad and went that's a great squad they've just won the league they've gone out and spent this amount of money on some real stars players that we love whether this is like can anyone can anyone catch them can anyone that was the question we all absolutely said that but I'm just saying that you guys did we no there's terrible mismanagement did we look at I didn't say that a lot of us did a lot of us a lot of listeners did a lot of us it's Arsenal to be fair yeah no right the only thing I'd say to all of this this isn't what we said one problem Liverpool have ended up with ten we could probably sit here and say ten things that have gone really badly that obviously the major ones have been Salah and Isaac they're the two biggest problems they're not Wurz is up there as well Wurz ok defence well I was going to say then you could go Canate they can see three or more goals in six of the last ten games you're dead if that happens their biggest mistake was central defence they let Kwanzaa go they didn't sign Gehi Leone in fact fairness is this is the one area where like you watched that, I said this before, you watched that first hour against Southampton and he was a Rolls Royce even when he was young, he did his ACL out for the season, that was the one semi-backup, although he was for the future and like that was a massive, massive oversight so their biggest issue, and then that's not even before you talk about the full backs, and you're still talking about defence, but they feel like a different issue but their defence is the biggest issue you can't keep going two behind and then throwing Van Dyke up front, it's just a piece of nonsense OK, but would you actually say that is bigger than Salah and Izzak?

24:42Yes. OK. I wouldn't, but I think it's really close. Martin casting vote on the biggest issue at Liverpool. No, I'm not going to be deciding vote on this. I think they're both very big problems. I think with Isak and Ekotike, what I don't get is if they had the plan for them, where is it? Yeah. You know, if there was, are we always meant to sign these two? okay well then show what they were meant to be doing because they're not doing it at the moment but I'm with I'm totally with Gregor and Gehi was was a huge mistake was a huge mistake and not to because it wasn't like they were pushing they were pushing on open door yeah yeah just get it done it wasn't like Crystal Palace was saying oh well you can't do this and you can't do that it was Parish had come out and said you know I think we need to sell him we don't want to lose him for nothing so all you had to do was get it done yeah absolutely and Slott to be fair Slott used an excuse early on and said we signed these players not for the next six weeks we signed them for the next five years giving a bit of leeway because it weren't right yeah interesting stuff I made a big debate on Liverpool Liverpool fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk with your views on the struggles at your club at the moment but it was an important win against Inter Milan let's wrap up a clean sheet as well that crap defence not so crap after all let's just take a quick look at the other two games from Tuesday night Chelsea again what is it with this Chelsea team just win one great win lose other games I mean in this game from catching up with it Atalhans look the better team for a lot of it they've played Carabag and rested people made loads of changes this was a pretty strong Chelsea team as well Tony yeah but it's quite a number of changes in there as well but it's still a strong team because they've got an amazing squad I've said to you Every time I've come away watching Chelsea, one week I'll come and one go, they're a decent side.

26:38I've done them about four times this year. And I've said two, when I've gone, they're decent. They're a good side. They're dangerous. They can beat the very best, Chelsea. And the others have come away, I can see why now they're getting it wrong. I think centre-half positions is a real problem for Chelsea. They just don't seem to have the players that can lead from that part of the pitch. I do think they have players that can get goals. I'm not sure Yao Pedro's a centre forward well I was going to say on that we're talking with Liverpool about mistakes in the summer I mean he was no superstar Nicholas Jackson but with Liam De Lapp's injury record and suspensions and missing loads of games Yao Pedro as you say I agree with you I don't think he's a number nine does that look a mistake now having someone leading the line running in behind because Jackson was good at that at least I thought yeah it wasn't the answer of getting him to near where they think they should be he wasn't but look Rhys James is an average because Rhys just can't play week in, week out, or three games a week.

27:33You can't. And Rhys is a terrific player for Chelsea. So, again, I just don't see a 90-minute team in Chelsea. And that's been their issue. I think one of the problems with Chelsea, three of the problems here with Chelsea, is that if you look at three key positions, you look at Chelsea and think, well, they could do better. They could do better than that goal. So they could do better than that goal. keeper. Sanchez I think has been good lately. I don't think he's been bad compared to bad for the goal. But you think there's better out there than Sanchez. You look at the centre-halves and think, yeah, there's better out there than the centre-halves.

28:14And you look at the centre-forwards and think, yeah, there's better out there than the centre-forwards. They're three quite important positions, really. And to have spent the money they've spent you'd expect better. you'd expect batter in those three you'd expect to have one Red Hot centre forward you'd expect to now they've been very unlucky with Levi Colwell who I think is their first without a doubt would be their first choice Wesley Fofano gets in the team for a few games and then gets injured so they've and they've been around Cole Palmer as well but they've known about his injury record for two years now absolutely they signed him injured didn't they yes they did yes they did signed him injured so you know what I mean it's you look at that and think the rock the rock of the team I keep coming I've said this before but the rock of the defence is a guy that they wanted to sell Chalaba and they wanted to sell him for financial reasons because he's from the academy and he's been their best defender Barry Shealy is not good enough no he's not good enough no Tosin he was also Tosin Tosin Marisca likes him and he's good and he was a free transfer and he was like he's a rarity because I think he turned 28 recently and that's like the oldest player on the team but yeah he's not he's not the guy you're building the defence around so yeah like okay they've had a bit of misfortune but I totally agree with Martin they've left huge holes in their team and that's down to recruitment and it's been that way for like five transfer windows all that money spent in the summer and it turns out the recruitment was crap according to this show and I know Moeska you know gets a lot of critics say oh keeps changing the team and keeps changing the team but I can understand why he's changing.

30:00Of all the managers, I can understand why he is changing the team because they had a month off. That's what they had. Between the Club World Cup and the start of the season, they had one month off. So if there's any manager that can be forgiven for trying to mix and match with players, we've got to rest this one, this one can play, but this one needs rest. I can understand why it's happening at Chelsea. but it's very difficult to win the league if you can't keep a settled team, certainly if you can't keep a settled defence. And I still think that Palmer needed an operation. And I think trying to nurse him through, I just get the feeling with Palmer that at the end of this, there's an operation.

30:49At the end of this, there is the admission that... Well, it's a maybe, wouldn't it? It's a maybe decision. If you rest for four or five weeks and you keep going, rehabilitation then you'll be fine but it's a coin flip and if he's not fine then he's surgery finding lots of problems on today's show Chelsea fans do get in touch with me as well with some thoughts on your side just to finish very quickly with a side couple of games weeks a long time in football but Tottenham had two wins speaking to some of my colleagues on the desk who are Tottenham fans season ticket holders and say panic's over now and we're all on board with Thomas Frank Xavi Simmonds he's going to go back to being unbearable but they've got Nottingham Forest away Liverpool at home Palace and Brentford to come to take us to the new year Gregor do we think all jokes aside we were questioning Thomas Frank and whether he was the right fit at Tottenham a couple of weeks ago has he shown enough in the last couple of games two fairly straightforward wins but that had been part of the problem Brentford and Slavia Prague at home yeah I mean Tom Holland summed up in his report is like the quality of the opposition was not much but right now Spurs will take any home win they can get and the bright spark has seen a bit of life from Javi Siemens Everyone is yearning to be a creative force That they're desperately needing Just a bit more attacking intent in the last two games But I won't get carried away I think, as you say There's a much bigger task to come I think Archie Gray is another bright spark The fact that he got a chance in the team And he took it, he grasped it against PSG the last time And he's kind of saying Don't leave me out now So they're being positives But no, I wouldn't get carried away yet.

32:26I don't think Thomas Frank is out of the woods yet. With the set of fixtures they've got, they're not in the top eight, are they? At the moment. No. Yeah, they should be in the top eight. I mean, I knew in this game, like the goals, the first goal was like comedy on goal. And then what was the guy doing, giving that penalty? He ran to the byline and he just completely clattered them on the byline. Tottenham in 11th at the minute. I want to bring up that theme of the quality and standards in this Champions League so far after the break, but we're going to take a little break now. so it's time for a question from Bill Edgar's Premier League quiz on the Times website.

32:57Now, who scored a hat-trick on his final appearance for West Ham as a substitute against Nottingham Forest on the last day of the 1991-92 season before moving to Aston Villa for a brief spell? Find out after the break.

33:22welcome back to the game football podcast from the times i'm tom clark and i've got gregor robertson tony cascarino and martin samuel with me tony and martin agonizing over this question in the end tony cascarino coming in with the correct answer which was frank mcavenia frank Mike McAvenier, teasing one from Bill Edgar in his quiz this week. He's got another nine questions you can have a go at on the Times website. Now, back to the Champions League. Manchester City 2, Real Madrid 1. Manchester City, Pep Guardiola, Real Madrid, Xabi Alonso, all these superstars. Fun game? Not a great game, I thought.

33:55I couldn't quite decide whether this was a great fun game, two great sides against each other in this format that pits teams against each other, or whether it was just two teams kind of playing a little bit like it was a kind of pre-season summer tournament in America? I don't know. What do you think? Well, unfortunately, this is where you look back in time and you go, Real Madrid. I look at that Real Madrid team and I'm like, they're so nowhere near what Real Madrid were about. The quality of player, whether it's defenders, whether it was midfielders. They've got a lot of injuries. Yeah, okay, they have.

34:29But honestly, I've seen them a few times this season. and again Mbappe's injured so that's a big blow to them but watching Vinicius Junior play who is clearly a player that's very very unhappy who's a terrific footballer you know he's best he could scare the life out of some really good players Courtois making a mistake as well I mean he's been superb for them over the years but their midfield just doesn't look like a midfield of Real Madrid anymore do you know Chouameni Bellingham Chouameni's not bad you know you don't think that's a Sabayos I don't know where near I mean Jude is I mean I thought all his game the way he played last night a lot of good stuff in there but his finishing wasn't like we know he's capable of but Jude looks like he's finding it hard in that particular midfield so because I was going to ask a question and obviously Martin you've covered Real Madrid and Carlo Lanciotti and his success there over many years I was going to ask a question around aura with Real Madrid because that is so often what it's been about in the last decades in the Champions League it's that you never won against Madrid City had it in fact didn't they a couple of years ago where they'd beaten them and then all of a sudden bang they scored two goals and that is Madrid, that's what they do it's Real Madrid being Real Madrid they don't look like they've got that now but Tony seems to think it's quality what do you guys think Martin?

35:50Well I think a lot of the air went out of the balloon when they played six consecutive away games which if you look at that That is a failing of the club. That is the failing because if you wanted a multi-purpose stadium, all the clubs that want multi-purpose stadiums, and that's the modern way because they're very, very expensive, so everyone is looking for a multi-purpose stadium. Well, then you've got to plan for it. And they clearly didn't because they've hosted an NFL game and they've had to play six consecutive away matches because they had to take seats out. They had to make the bench bigger.

36:35They had to make the pitch this and do that. Well, how it's got to happen, you're in a multi-purpose stadium, your pitcher's got to be able to come down and get slid over there and that thing gets slid up there and boom, and now we're in an NFL stadium. And that is the only way to do it because if you have to keep making great big structural changes and playing away from home, that upsets your balance of the season. six away games they were five points clear of Barcelona when it started played six away matches and came back a point behind they were they were joint top on points with Paris Saint-Germain and about four other teams in the Champions League came back three points off it do you wonder whether that's why the club are being a little bit more lenient I say this at the time of recording on Thursday morning with Xabi Alonso you never know but previously other managers maybe wouldn't have got as long or have a little bit of a bad run but it's definitely a mistake it's definitely that sort of thing if clubs want if they want to be multi-purpose stadiums if they're in the entertainment business you can't just carry on the old way you can't just have a football stadium you've got to be flexible that was insane I didn't know that until I read that in your column but it's I mean look let's lay out who they've got missing Alaba Carvajal Hoyssen Militao Mendy Trent Gamavinga and obviously Mbappe was missing for this basically missing from this while they put him on the bench that's that's gonna upset I know like Real Madrid have had great strength and depth over the years and stuff but and they look at their bench last night and like who are these guys there are a lot of youngsters even playing a guy up front who I don't think he'd scored a goal for them in Champions League so and you saw you're talking about Aura I think you still just about saw that at the end you saw the stadium finally get its kind of I think I think like a ball was flashed across the box and it was like they got a corner and you heard the noise spike and it was like I think that's all still there they've just not they've not got as Tony says the quality on the pitch because there's a lot of injuries and yeah Vinny Jr is obviously a big issue he's like he doesn't look happy and like the navigating and everyone sort of belittled Ancelotti's ability to navigate all those egos and sort of keep it harmonious and changing him that's probably the biggest that's the number one task if you're Real Madrid manager so like that's Alonso's biggest task you've got to remember Ian Hawkey pointed out in his piece he hired him in the summer he was the most coveted manager in the world so it would be insane for them to get rid of him with that injury list that context that Martins laid out about a mad decision taken upstairs that has nothing to do with him like I think it would be insane but it's Real Madrid yeah stranger things have happened go on Tim is there a bigger problem Spanish football is finding it hard at the moment with the quality club teams I don't think they've been very impressive at all from Atletico Madrid to Barcelona to Real Madrid I don't think they've been particularly good Spanish football you could say as a national team they still look a really good side but if I look at club teams I don't think any of them I don't think Barcelona I mean look again going back you're always getting a bit nostalgic and how great but they've had great teams decade in decade out a lot of these teams I don't think Atletico is good I don't think Real was good and I don't think Barcelona But is that not just Spanish football is that across the piece as well because bringing back Tottenham in speaking to as I mentioned earlier the fan who was there and he was saying I don't want to sound like one of those kind of English football fans who says our league's the best but watching Slavia Prague and the previous game I forget who it was against but they'd be bottom five in the Premier League quite comfortably and things like that.

40:29Is it the case that this competition, is it the format? Are we not seeing the proper games yet? Or are English teams just dominant? What is it we're talking about here? You're not seeing the proper games, that much is true. We're all sitting there waiting for the knockout stage to come and then Real Madrid versus Manchester City would be a completely different game. Yeah. Completely different game. But I do think there's weak, weak teams in this and it there always has been I know there are a few more weaker teams and there are a few plucky stories I think we are getting stronger I think we are getting stronger as a collective I really do we get slagged off every time I was just about to say Villarreal and bottom 8 no they're second from bottom no we get slagged off every time we say this yeah we do everyone's like oh it's English arrogance you know blah blah blah and you're like no no I mean I I've said this I said this a few weeks ago even just from a physical standpoint I think if you look at as I said I've been at games in Champions League Europa League and Conference League this season and they've been the opposition have been wiped off the pitch because of the Premier League team's physicality it's like a completely different intensity and like power to the league and that's not quite as like as explicit in a game like this with a lot of technical footballers and there was actually you'd question Real Madrid's like energy in the second half like periods where Man City were just standing on the ball and knocking it Phil Foden was knocking it and getting one-twos and just not really having to do much so yeah there's a lot of play and things that happen in our league at such pace as well so the technical level is so much better than it used to be because it's such a fast league now you see some of those games particularly those Sunday afternoon ones where there's two and you look at the pace of the game just thinking gee whiz there is not another league like this Speaking of dominance from English sides in the Champions League Arsenal another win for them some brilliant goals from Noni Madueke particularly that driving run speaking of physicality just barged his defender off the ball shrugged him off a few touches out of his feet and bang in the top corner 18 points goal difference of 16 17 score just one conceded I was starting to ponder thinking about this and thinking about that dominance is this Arsenal team better set up to win the Champions League than they are the Premier League anyone think I'm starting to wonder get the defenders back one off no one's willing to go down the road it's out of both for the minute yeah exactly they're top of both so I mean why not aim high no I don't think necessarily you know look last year they beat PSG in this stage and then got knocked out by them and then the semi-final you know there's a calm down Tom the old sort of cliche about oh there's a lot of football to come there's an enormous amount of football to come in the Champions League because suddenly it goes from this unwieldy 36 or whatever it is 36, 38 I've lost count team league to a knockout yeah calm down Tom is what you're very politely saying yeah that's absolutely fine calm down Tom can I make a point?

43:38no no just a quick one you've made enough come here start making points right no I just want to say one thing on Madiwaki yes I think he can play centre forward Really? I think he's got every attribute to play centre forward. Interesting. He's really direct. He wants to get in and he sees it. He hits things early. You know, one of the biggest assets I learnt along the way, watching other strikers, if you get half a yard and he wants to win it, he does that all the time. We always say, can players play other positions? I don't look at Mulder Wake and think, he could easily play centre forward. You think his finishing is good enough?

44:12I don't know, airily, with the threat of aerial balls coming in. I don't know how good, because I don't see that much of him on the end of crosses. But I do know when he gets in front of goal and he gets really direct, he's bloody selfish as well. Do you think that helps him go to the World Cup then as well? I just think you could play him there. I just think he's 23 years old and he reminds me of when I first saw Didier Drogba and that's a really unfair comparison because he obviously turned out to be one of the best. But I saw that type of striker in Didier when I first saw him in France. And there's something about me that just keeps going, do you know what?

44:47I hope someone gives him a go there and you might think nah no chance I think he's got a chance I think he's got every the things he does in his game he's really directed wants to get past people and he sees the post the goals of the post and he hits it yeah that was a good point Tone thanks I'm glad you're clean we're glad you're we're glad you're we're glad you're we're glad you're we're glad you're Victor Gokka Victor Gokka says thanks mate yeah yeah I've got real Jesus coming back Michael Marino yeah they've suddenly got loads of strikers Arsenal didn't have any last season He could play it.

45:19I'm telling you, he could play it. If there's any man in this room to make that judgment call, Tony, it's you and it's not us. So let's finish with a quick look at Newcastle because it helps us look towards the weekend as well. Really interesting game, this one. Gregor, as rightly pointed out earlier in the show, Volt Mardy, another shocking dive as well. I think we're all in agreement with that. Again, not shout how that penalty got given. The goalkeeper's going, no, come on, what? Surely. Unbelievable. It's flicking as well, isn't it? Yeah. yeah he slid out and kind of it was a stupid thing to do it wasn't he'd give the referee a decision to make but yeah I don't know how they don't look at that as well no was there actually any contact but the funny thing is with that phrase oh he's giving the referee a decision to make is that you can it's an outfield that it's always the wrong decision you know oh he's giving the referee a decision to make and he's gone yeah it's also like he's giving the referee a decision to make that's their job I'm sorry to go like Roy Keane but that is actually what they're literally paid to do but Newcastle I think overall a little bit unlucky in this match, hitting the post twice, conceding the equaliser late on.

46:20Again, I come back to this point about Newcastle's season. They've got the derby against Sunderland at the weekend. They feel like they're in between two things, a little bit like Chelsea and can't get the consistency. Do they want Champions League qualification, last rounds? They've got a little bit unlucky here, haven't they? Because whoever plays Sunderland the week after this plays half a team. Because they lose seven. Yes, AFCON, they're one of the most. they lose I think 7th I've gone and also Sunderland have had the whole week to be free to prepare for the yeah absolutely which I always think it's a bit tougher they'll be fresh they'll be all planned you've got Sunderland in 9th and you've got Newcastle in 12th I mean I know I keep bringing this up and you all keep going nah Newcastle are good Eddie Howe good good team you know they lost Isaac blah blah but they're in 12th they don't keep getting these fixtures these results sorry in the Champions League that would maybe make you go okay well that's alright then I'm not saying they're having a bad season but this is a big game for Newcastle anyhow isn't it?

47:16If Newcastle ended the season 12 that would be a very bad season for Newcastle I don't think You're going to tell me to calm down again? Also they've got PSV I think have been pretty not bad and PSG in the last two games Yeah This was a costly slip up actually Yeah it was Martin Hardy made that point in his report it's like set pieces are being an issue for them and late goals are being an issue for them Change the goalkeeper and like I don't necessarily think Poke a play out front, I'm telling you.

47:48But this is an exciting game, isn't it? We've got the North East Derby back in the Premier League, Sunderland, Newcastle. It's going to be very, very exciting. The stadium light's going to be absolutely buzzing for this one. I was up there when Rude put in the 11-name resignation letter. Oh, yeah, when he dropped Shearer. When he dropped Shearer for it. Rude was absolutely mystified of what the fuss was. was that at St James' Park or was it at St James' Park he was at home he left him on the bench at St James' Park but he was utterly bewildered by it and one of his you know local derby they're 13 miles apart and you're sort of like yeah mate honestly you're a Dutch fella Rotterdam and Amsterdam aren't next to each other but I think Feyenoord vs Ajax always goes off a little bit tasty but yeah it was they're special matches I've seen them at both I've seen them at the old Volker Park as well first in the same league for 10 years massive occasion is it that long 10 years we'll never have got that it's a huge moment for Sunderland as well isn't it Greg the season they're having the position they're in as Tony said they've had all week to prepare for this they'll have been watching that game going oh yeah little last minute let's go after come on let's get after them you'd expect that wouldn't you the pressure is actually on Sunderland in this game isn't it Gregor a little bit with being at home or you don't think so I don't know I think it'll be like a carnival occasion for them they'll just be delighted to be and like be above them on the table and be you know just looking down on them for once after so long in the doldrums so yeah it's a massive massive occasion and like Sunderland have been great they've got a lot of things that you think would kind of that could upset Newcastle Newcastle you think about how much they're in your face and how dogged they are and how industrious they are sometimes they'll match them for all of those things and they've got a threat up front so we don't get a Granit Xhaka early red card or something like that that would absolutely kill it wouldn't it you could see it coming but the transformation is also in such a short space of time you remember they met in the cup not so long ago oh god yeah and they looked mild off absolutely blown off the pitch so it's been a remarkable turnaround for them yeah really exciting we'll be discussing that on the next show but we'll leave it there for now Martin Samuel Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then