Liverpool go 4-4-2 and how does Arsenal's defence compare to some of the best ever?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the times Liverpool are back on track with a 5-1 win in Frankfurt. For all five goals coming without Mo Salah on the pitch, is this the future for a new-look Liverpool? Elsewhere, Arsenal picked up a commanding 4-0 home win against Atletico. Just how good is Mikel Arteta's back four? And how does it compare with other great defences from down the years? There are also wins for Chelsea, Newcastle, Manchester City and a battling draw for Tottenham. And on today's show, we'll also discuss Sean Dyche's return to management at Nottingham Forest and the growing crisis at West Ham.

0:39I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel. The Football Correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft. And the former footballer turned football writer, Gregor Robertson. It's here, as usual. Team, we're all together in the studio. Lovely stuff. We've got absolutely loads and loads to talk about. Let's dive straight in with Liverpool. Gregor, Monday's show, is it a crisis? Is it not a crisis? Turns out you just dropped Mo Salah, play Florian Verts in a good position. You win 5-1 and everything's back on track. Simple as that.

1:07Am I right? No, we can go quite that far. Frankfurt were quite accommodating hosts, shall we say. It wasn't, you know, the first half of an hour, they looked like they were defending brilliantly and it was going to be another difficult evening for Liverpool. Then they went behind and then Frankfurt lost their heads. Like every time they went forward, they looked like they just left themselves wide open. But after that, yeah, Liverpool were pretty clinical. What do you make of the changes from slot? and then four defeats on the spin. Mo Salah dropped to the bench, rested on the bench. Salah was, what he did was Salah was brave.

1:44You know, without a doubt. It's very, very hard to do that. You know, a couple of weeks ago, there was this huge debate again because it was England and Gerrard gave that interview and then it was all brought up all the Lampard. Oh, the golden generation stuff. The golden generation, why couldn't it work? And, you know, I was making the point, It might have been on here, but 2004 European Championships, you should have dropped Beckham. Beckham was the weakling. He had a very, very poor tournament. So I thought it was incredibly brave of Arnie Slott to decide when it could have been the fifth defeat on a spin.

2:22I mean, four defeats on the spin, we're going back to Brendan Rodgers' time. And that was, if you look at Brendan Rodgers' time, look at the four defeats that he had Real Madrid away was one of them they were very very hard fixtures so I thought that was extremely bold and for it to work as well and now that it's worked it does pose the question it poses the question I know listener Martin got in touch to say after Salah's bench is this a sign of a new look Liverpool it's obviously very reactionary but Vert's played very well Ekati, K and Izzak on the pitch together Vert's got two assists in four minutes I think in the space of four minutes Johnny your thoughts on all this I loved it I mean I think the kind of recency bias in analysis has just gone wild and you know going from Arnie Slott being oh he's a dud it's all Jörgen Klopp's work to now let's get rid of Mo Salah Come on Johnny you're the football journalist of the year this is what we live for isn't it I would have put yeah well okay I want to put my foot in the ball as it were though and just say yeah look it worked brilliantly and it was a right move because Salah's not in form and you've got to pick your team on form.

3:32No one's undroppable. It was brave to do it in this moment and for the foreseeable, he's got to build on what he established last night but I wouldn't write off Mo Salah from being able to come back into that team once he gets into form but the incentive is now there for him and there's an echo of the Jude Bellingham England situation, another brilliant player but there's an incentive to be at your best to get into that team and I thought what Slott did what I saw for the first time in Liverpool since the revamp with all the new players was he established some connections between players. Until now, it's looked like a group of talents unable to figure out a way to play with each other.

4:12And the coach's job, before you get to tactics formations, is to work on what relationships a player's going to have, who's going to feed off each other. I thought you saw Verts not just playing as a 10, but with more players in proximity to him it's really important to him somebody who plays so quickly him and Shabozlai just had a fantastic link up I think they played the most passes between each other of any combination in the game that really worked you had Eketike really worked playing off a striker and as a second striker again maybe someone that needs to feed off people run on to things and then having a double pivot worked because again you had two passing players you had a bit more protection for the back four so I think what the new Liverpool because the old Liverpool was Trent to Salah and that was the main attacking connection, the new Liverpool whoever's in it has to have a new set of relationships and I thought you saw particularly in Vertis and Sabozlai the start of it last night I don't think the two midfield would work going forward if it was those two players in those two particular?

5:21No, I mean Sabozlai is brilliant and he can do everything but I don't think I don't think there is enough protection for Liverpool's defence as in Sir Bosley and Jones Curtis Jones I don't think that you'd want Gravenberg and probably McAllister as in when you get back to the Premier League yeah both of them I mean yeah I think so I'd still want to get Sir Bosley and the team so it's it's thrown up I said this the other week like everything's on the table now Salah can't fit into the system either really unless they've completely we should we should the other way lopsided because it is lopsided it was 4-4-2 out of possession and 3-2-5 in possession which means that Fring Pong then Bradley was the one offering the width and high up on the right and Cody Gakpo did on the left so you'd have to put Salah on the right and then have a more attacking left back on the left so that'd be Kierkegaard and then you'd have to have somebody else probably Joe Gomez playing on the right because it's not it's not Conor Bradley or Fring Pong so you'd have to completely lopside it which we should say as well Salah was dropped rested for the Galatasaray as well so there's every chance he comes back in for the Brentford game especially with Alexander Izak going off with an injury as well.

6:25So, you know, Johnny, you're right. We're not over-egging this much. Salah's done. Salah's finished. No, no, no. But they've got to learn how to play without him because they're going to be without him for six weeks. Yeah, yeah. The month after next. Yeah. And I thought what was true last night was you invest all that money in Verts, right? And you invest it in Isak. And it was maybe the first game where those two players have been the focus of the system, the priority. getting the ball to Virts and having players around him was a priority and until then it's been all these new players but the old priority of getting Salah on the ball and Salah is so good he can come back in the team but he maybe has to accept if he does it will no longer be a game based around him he'll have to fit in another way Do you think Salah could fit in another way?

7:11You're talking about Eketike in a role behind a striker Mo Salah could do that couldn't he? Yeah of course he could but Eketike is a they've got to prioritise Ekotika as well because he's in much better nick than Isak. Yes, absolutely. Isak is now injured. You don't know how long for. But Ekotika is in much better nick than Isak. And if you can only play one, well, then you play him. Yeah, interesting. Greg, just on the defence as well, because you were talking about that midfield protection for that defence, which you've mentioned a lot of times on the show. Liverpool have kept just two clean sheets in their last 18 games in all competitions in that time they've conceded 28 goals obviously this was a big win but they still went one behind which is becoming a theme this season Yeah, 18 goals in 13 games this season I think it was 7 at the same stage last season Is that system based or is it we're going to talk about good backfours and things for Arsenal and stuff is it the change in full backs, is it the whole team It's been a lot of things It's been Kanati for the first half a dozen games of the season although he looks like he's found his feet now it's been issues with the full-backs settling it's partly been an issue of the system and it was a great move for Frankfurt's opener like the way they broke Verts lost it in the right-hand corner and they broke brilliantly with like one and two touch passing but Liverpool were a little bit exposed so there has been that issue as well and that was obviously the way they started the season they were playing with a 10 as opposed to three midfielders like now as I said everything's on the table he's tried something completely new again so I'm still not convinced about them defensively I think also in this game the fact that they scored two set-piece goals it just gives them a big right okay that's like a bit of confidence they're not going to get as lucky against Brentford on Saturday as they did with Frankfurt as well because Brentford are not at any stage going to have 10 outfield players in Liverpool's half of the pitch and leave it as open as as Frankfurt did for Liverpool get back into the game I mean, you will not play a team in the Premier League.

9:15You might play a team that's left four people back, but they look as if they're all running through treacle like West Ham, but you're not going to have something like Frankfurt last night, which was suicidal. The next question is, can Liverpool reproduce that with Premier League intensity? A factor. And that's been one of Ertz's big issues already. So it was a step, but it's not enough to be definitive. but in terms of the fullbacks I just think it's been personnel based as much as anything else Liverpool have gone from two of all you know club all time great players basically in Robertson and Trent Alexander-Arnold to two very young fullbacks who are pretty raw to my mind who neither of them I think they both can be very good players but at the moment neither of them are fantastic defensively and neither of them are particularly good at handling the ball and that's created a big weakness yes they've been exposed it must be difficult being in that Liverpool defence at times but I think both full backs have been up to it this year so to see Robertson come back in made a lot of sense to see Joe Gomez get a little bit of time made a bit of sense and it might be that those two players have to do a bit of a transition yeah if you remember Klopp used to sign players but he would spend six months transitioning them and maybe Kerkers needs that and playing one or the other so like that's an upside sort of defence if one of the if it's a Gomez or Robertson playing slightly more tucking in not having to do the buccaneering runs forward and one full-back, Frimpong or Kierkegaard gets that licence that might be a sort of answer Yeah, a big win for Liverpool and Arna Slott but arguably more questions I'd say than answers we'll see how they get on against Brentford at the weekend another English side with a big win Chelsea 5-1, victors over Ajax it was a much changed Chelsea team lots of young players out there I think I had a sat here that Chelsea are the first team in Champions League history to have three teenagers score for them in a single match with goals for Estevão Mark Gui and Tarek George.

11:14So pretty impressive, Martin. A good win for Chelsea and Enzo Mareskin. I mean, look, Ajax go down to 10 men. Ajax are up to much in the first place with 11. They've now lost, just to interrupt you on that, sorry, six European games on the bounce for the first time since the 1980s. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Which for a one-square... It didn't even look like... I'm sorry, it's an old hobby horse of mine. It didn't even look like Ajax. It didn't even play like Ajax. It didn't look like Ajax. Stop. They had, oh, mate. you know they've got you know a shirt and shorts that are pants left in wash I don't know what the colour is but it's pants left in wash and is that on the Julex colour chart yeah yeah pants left in wash red pants left in white's wash I would say is the colour you know and they're playing Chelsea so an iconic white shirt with a giant great red stripe down the middle that's what you want to see look like Ajax come here and look like Ajax which they didn't and funnily enough Chelsea looked more like the Ajax of old because of how many young players there were in the team one of those times when you used to watch Ajax and think this kid's 19 this kid's 18 and it was great to see it was great to see Esteval is a fabulous player Esteval's got the you were one of the first people to say it to me Martin after seeing him this guy's a real player James our colleague on the desk went to the Chelsea game and he said I've got a very boring hot take for you Esteval quite good at football everyone who seems to watch him goes this guy's the real deal Honestly, he really was.

12:39And Gwee, and it's very interesting, somebody at Chelsea said to me about 10, 11 months ago that they think that the hierarchy at Chelsea think that he has got Cole Palmer potential. If you look at his age and if you look at where Cole Palmer was in his development at the same age. In terms of his output, not that he's going to be the same type of player. Not that he's going to be the same type of player, but that he could be that sort of, that guy bursts onto the scene in a couple of years' time. The way that Cole Palmer did, the way that Cole Palmer wasn't doing what he's doing at Chelsea at Manchester City, otherwise Pep's not an idiot.

13:17He doesn't sell a guy that's playing like Cole Palmer is now or whatever he was before he got injured. And they think that there's about two or three years between them and the way that Cole Palmer suddenly stepped up and suddenly kicked on, they think that Grey's got that potential interesting that he's getting the chance in the Champions League very early on having been previously shipped out to Sunderland on loan and then immediately recall it's all part of the plan they've got to do something they've got to make use of him now because they can't loan him out of him that's true that's true I also remember that the second of the three players who've made this record was on his way to Fulham on Deadline yeah Taelic George I mean I find it all a bit weird this idea that they're like Ajax as well Ajax developed their own players and put them in the team Chelsea developed theirs and sell them to fund their big spree around the year football has changed since Ajax that's exactly what Ajax do now Ajax is a selling club now they don't want to though what they do because they keep doing it you've got to say no yeah it was a funny one as soon as you can sort of prove anything with stats but it was first time three teenagers scored in the Champions League for the same team and Reggie Walsh came on who was 17 but it was also the first time I think in 60 games or 90 games that Chelsea have had a starting 11 that didn't have an academy graduate in it so you can look at it both ways you could say young players brilliant blah blah blah but you could also say yeah because they're signing them from everywhere else but Gui is it Guiu Gui Gui yeah exactly Gui doesn't sound Gui yeah Gui he does it all come on loads to talk about guys the negotiations of Chelsea strikers we do not have time for.

15:04He's interested though because I mean it's really interesting hearing that about the Palmer comparison because he didn't look a player last year. No. He didn't even look a particularly great loan by Sunderland when they wanted to do it but actually this year you sort of go right now you understand why they've gone for it. The goal that he scored yesterday you know the way he stands in that massively offside position and just waits and waits and sort of knows where the player is going to move so it's a Pet Peef. There's a defender grumbling next to you, Mark Samuel, about strikers. Stays in a massively offside position and basically waits for the play to get forced back and waits for an Ajax defender just to go in a little bit too deep.

15:49Now he's onside. I thought he was smart. Yeah, a good win for Chelsea. Since defeat against Brighton, they've beaten Benfica, Liverpool, Forest and now this big thrashing. They've got Sunderland at home at the weekend. Enzo Mores can be hoping to keep that good run of form going. Tottenham and Thomas Frank getting what you'd say probably is a good point in Monaco, given how the game panned out, Johnny Thomas Frank admitting his side made too many mistakes as well that coming after a defeat at the weekend against Aston Villa, perhaps Thomas Frank finding a few little stumbling points Johnny in the early stages at Tottenham it's tough at the top The first few games were great for him and now the reality I think that Spurs were 15th last year, so we know it's a transitioning squad I tried to watch a bit of the game once the Liverpool game was sort of done and dusted and it was it was quite a hard watch but it was almost like it seemed looked like a sort of almost throwback European game where you just go and get your point away from home and it's scrappy and a couple of long throws from Dan So was the best that they they produced but you know it's fine it's fine they just he needs to get build some momentum back up I think because it's a difficult club and you can already see on social media a little bit of I suppose debate coming back it's crackers isn't it it's absolutely crackers and I'm sure we'll come back to Thomas Frank and Tottenham in the coming weeks and months I'm sure but talking about tough and scrappy and teams looking to get a bit of momentum Nottingham Forest Gregor Robertson you're off to the city ground tonight to watch and I say it again I said it on Monday Sean Dyche leading out Nottingham Forest against Porto in the Europa League I still can't get my head around it it's absolutely mental Johnny and Martin you obviously weren't on Monday's show your reaction to I mean one of the most probably it's got to be the most bonkers story of the season isn't it Narcan Forest even though we're only in October I mean there's not much to analyse really because you're trying to analyse the whims of a rich man and how can you analyse those in terms of the chain of decisions that have got us here I think there's a you can see a clear short term logic Sean Dyche coming in to write the shit blah blah blah but given that you move you get rid of Nuno because as what you think you are as a Champions League club potentially and this guy didn't get you there.

18:02And then to arrive back at Sean Dyche in a few weeks is pretty mad. And, you know, Dyche obviously has a very solid CV of work in the Premier League. Is he better than Nuno at what they both do, which is fairly similar? But I'd say Nuno's, well, yeah, OK. So, yeah, he can organise a defence like Nuno, but can he organise a counter-attack like Nuno? I don't think so. And I do wonder, Daish's success at Burnley was built on being a bit different to the rest of the league at that time, playing direct. Which he said in his press conference, he came back saying, flared trousers, skinny jeans. Long balls know the long pass.

18:44Yeah. But is that a good thing for him that his football is in vogue or is it a bad thing? Because he's no longer got the point of difference. What do you think? I think it's a bad thing because I think he'll end up trying to do the same thing that everyone's doing and he might not be quite as well equipped to do it. Or he might find that there's other teams now doing what he used to do a little bit smarter, like a Brentford or whatever. I think it's going to be a struggle for him. I did enjoy the Nottingham Forest statement, Martin, when it came out talking about the thorough recruitment process that was led for this.

19:21The recruitment process, which was presumably, Sean, can you just wait there just one second? is that Fulham yeah how much for Marco Silva 12 million alright yeah no see you at Christmas okay back yes Sean yeah we'd love to have you absolutely that was it wasn't it that was basically the entire recruitment oh sorry is that the final whistle we've still we have got done haven't we yeah yeah yeah of course yeah yeah Roberto Mancini ring ring ring ring he's not answering yeah yeah but I mean that's a bit harsh don't you listen come on that's what it felt like there's a big part of this is about the vibes too let's be honest because Maranaka's a bit of a populist figure he wants to get the fans back on side and you've got like a coaching staff of five all of whom have a connection to the club he's talking about walking just going through the kind of social media feed you've got Steve Stone Ian Woon and he's like welcome back back where they belong and all this kind of stuff and you're like but sometimes that you know you need a little bit of that you know you need a little bit of that sometimes this sort of, yeah, look, you can't stay up on good vibes, but you can change the narrative, you can change the mood around a place, which last week seemed, you know, I still feel certain.

20:37When Maranakis left the director's box, I'm watching it on the box, I was in Tenerife and I'm watching it on the box, I'm thinking, have they just sung sacked in a minute, you're getting sacked? Because I'm thinking, that's bloody quick if they have. whoever's come up with that that's really that's really sharp whoever's come up with that well it shows how bad the game was as well that everyone's watching the director's boxing the other telling thing was that full time the players when Ange tried to shake their hands I mean they were giving them such a wide berth because they knew whoever was coming didn't they yeah absolutely but coming back to that it's an interesting point about the vibes though and no one loves the vibes more than me I think it is a big part of modern day sport of course but going back to Johnny's point Sean Dyche's vibes Sean Dyche as the vibes meister No one loves Sean Dyche more than me.

21:23Well, he's used the word snood in a press conference already, and that's got to get people on your side, because it's such a great word, snood. And so straight away... This is definitely some left-field analysis of the situation at Nightingale Forest. And he's said that he's allowing white socks. Now, I don't know... But we're in parody of himself territory here, aren't we? What is he against with white socks? Because he would have had to have the full pull-up socks like you were supposed to wear on a match day. so it basically means you probably have to wear shin pads because it's footballs like that Hang on So it's got nothing against 80s soul boys No I don't think it's like that It's not like white socks loafers hang on you know stay press you know it's not against that it's not against it in a fashion sense But you know Gregor you're going tonight and obviously we're recording this on Thursday maybe you'll be listening on Friday morning but like they get they get hammered 3-0 by Porto tonight vibes are out the window aren't they because they're still in the relegation zone of the Premier League they're still then looking like they're not going to qualify from the Europa League which at the start of the season they'd have gone into it Maranakis would have gone into it going let's win this and they're not going to get out of it and then they've got Sean Dyches manager battling relegation it doesn't matter how many ex-players you bring back it's an absolute catastrophe isn't it yep but they're not planning to lose it's very possible yeah but they're not planning to lose that's the thing they think they won you never plan to lose look at them they've been toilet all season and now they've got three days of Sean Dyche training to make them beat Porto Gregor you're going I mean do you see any of this turnaround as much as vibes former players and the city ground will be behind them of course they will well look his media appearance yesterday was good because it was full of positivity and the things he said made sense about like I loved watching this team last season I thought like your strengths were really you know powerful things about defending a solid base let's return to that and why not like price that and then we'll try and get all our talented players on the ball like so he's just trying to basically forget the Ange Postacoglu era that mistake and step back to what the team was doing last season and probably that'll be a bit of a clean slate for everyone they'll go so if they go tonight and this doesn't just apply to tonight because I don't want to have conversations that'll be out of date by tomorrow but like what is going back if he just goes back to what Nuno did will that immediately arrest this run they're on whether it's tonight or at a weekend confidence has been shattered but like do you see that is it that simple well it could it could but confidence is a big factor I mean there's a lot of similar traits I mean the blocking right I mean Dice will love all that Murillo throwing himself in front of the ball and blah blah blah I mean that was that's always been a hallmark defend pack your box for men defend it deep get your bodies in the way of the ball that was that was very Nuno the bit I have a doubt about as I said does he can he engineer the kind of counter-attacks that we know Nuno can because that as much as the defending was a for us thing last year I mean they were brilliant, they were really stubborn but Gibbs, White and Hudson are doing people flying forward and things and Chris Wood scoring basically every time he got the ball it was fantastic that was an anomaly that was an anomaly, Chris Wood doesn't score goals at that rate you know, that really was an anomaly but even so then, coming back to it what is doing well for Sean Dyche then?

24:45is it do they have to get well he's been trying to talk down expectations already hasn't he if you saw his press conference he was stability he was trying to talk about stability trying to talk about you know stability doesn't exist for us no so what is but what is doing what is doing well then what would be let's hope surviving keeping them comfortably though I don't think it should be in a relegation battle so surviving mid-table he's done his job and like a respectable run in the Europa League not just crashing out I think that would be he's done his job well I think there's a broader issue about what this season will do to Forest moving forward like they kept Gibbs White Elliot Anderson is looking like a player who's going to be in demand in the summer do you want to be at a club that is this chaotic and has three managers by October?

25:29Don't think so I also think for Sean Dyke it's a great opportunity because I didn't think he did a bad job at Everton he certainly did a good job at Burnley most seasons but he is still regarded as this guy that can only ever be a firefighter and that's the most that you get Sean Dyche when you're completely in the car and nothing else you can do. He turns up like Winston Wolfe in Old Fiction and sorts your car out and this is an actual opportunity to go to a club that has spent money, that has got good players. If you look at that Nottingham Forest team and you go, I've got Douglas Lewis, I've got Morgan Gibbs-White, I've got Elliot Anderson, Ina to come back.

26:15This team should never be anywhere near the bottom three. Yep. So it's an opportunity for Sean Dyche to go, right, okay, I'll show you what I can actually do if I've got half a team here or whatever. I know we're starting from a low base. That is either, you know, that's a double-edged sword straight away because, you know, the idea that, well, it can't be as bad as the last guy we're not going to go eight games and win eight games as Mick said all of those things I think it's a good opportunity yeah it absolutely is a good opportunity for Sean Dyche and that begins tonight in the Europa League Gregor Robson will be there you can read his report on the Times website tonight or on Friday morning we're going to take a quick break right now it's time for the quiz question last season this is coming from Bill Edgar's quiz which you can do on the Times website every week on Wednesday or Thursday last season Forrest lost 5-0 away to Bournemouth but then won their next match 7-0 becoming the first team in the top flight since 1974 to lose by at least five goals but win their next match by a bigger margin which side did Forrest beat in that match at the City ground?

27:22Find out after the break

27:36Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Johnny Northcroft, Martin Samuel and the quiz master Gregor Robertson. He doesn't even give you a chance. Straight in with the answer, Gregor, which was? Brighton. Brighton. Barely let me finish and say he will be back in a second before he gave the answer. Brighton, of course, as I say, losing in that match to Forrest. Back to Tuesday night now, and before we get into talking about Arsenal, just a quick word for some of the best acting I've ever seen from Barcelona's Marc Casado. A dive to pick up a second yellow card for an Olympiacos player for a red card.

28:09I mean, one of the worst dives I've ever seen in football. Absolutely atrocious, Martin. Yeah, dreadful. And the referee's performance in the whole game was... That red card as well for Olympiacos coming at 2-1. They then go on to lose 6-1. two goals for Marcus Rashford congratulations to him great goals great performance from him but a terrible refereeing performance in that game in Barcelona's big win goals for Marcus Rashford goals for Harry Kane in a win for Bayern Munich and goals for Erling Haaland in a win for Manchester City Erling Haaland with 12 games and Harry Kane 10 games are both on absolutely unbelievable scoring runs for club and country right now I wonder how they get on if they came up against Arsenal there's no link into Arsenal defence what do you think Arsenal a 4-0 win against Atletico Madrid a very impressive performance two goals for Jochores of course but I want to talk about this defence how good is this Arsenal defence just got a few stats which is from an article by Bill Edgar which was in the Times today firstly on Gabriel Gregor I did a big Harry Maguire bit on Monday so it's only fair to follow up with this talking about the goals that Harry Maguire had scored this is the list of teams that Gabriel has scored against since joining Arsenal Man Utd, Liverpool, Chelsea, Man City, Spurs sporting and Atletico Madrid.

29:22Not a bad list of teams to score against. This is a stat. The fewest Premier League goals conceded among ever-present teams since the start of the 23-24 season, total of 84 games. Arsenal 66, Man City 84, Liverpool 93, Everton 104 and Chelsea 115. That's the best five. 66 goals conceded in 84 games. The fewest goals per game conceded by a top-flight team over a season in all competitions. Liverpool with 0.48 in 1978-79. That was 26 goals in 54 games. Arsenal's present rate is 0.25 goals per game conceded. So again, just giving you the context of how impressive this is. I've got further stats on best defences in a second, but just how good is this defence?

30:09What is so good? Is it a team thing? Is it the back four? Is it Raya? Is it those centre-backs? Should we let the defender in the room go first? I think we should, shouldn't we? Gregor Robinson. All of those things. How good is his defence? I mean, the bedrock is Saliba and Gabriel. They're outstanding physical monsters. They can do every aspect of the game in terms of being exposed. So, you know, being quick enough and athletic enough to chase him behind and play a high line. They can wrestle and battle with anyone. They're brilliant in the air. And Saliba in particular, but they're both good on the ball.

30:44So they're outstanding. And Timber has been a revelation, really. he's like he's somebody although he's a bit smaller he can play centre half as well and then it's obviously between Calafiore and Lewis Kelly and Lewis Kelly my doubt only doubt about him when he got on the team was about defensively but he's got like such a low centre of gravity big arse he can he just like throws into people and he can shield it some of his runs in this game as well straight through the middle of the pitch fantastic stuff but he's developed enormously as a defender and then yeah Raya Raya had one sort of wobbly moment where he nearly gifted them a goal which they would have been raging about in this game but on the whole he's he's been outstanding as well so that's like on an individual basis but then there is a collective issue like they press they press high at like when they on their terms and then when it's not happening they retreat and they form a really kind of resolute defensive block that is really hard to get through so like yeah it's an ethos though as well it's like it's like that's the fundamental that's the way that Mikel Arteta approaches every game and it's something that people have criticised including us have criticised him for and said is he going to have to let off the handbrake is he going to have to throw caution to the wind a bit more see a bit more adventure but if you know if it's this striking this star because he can maintain this sort of even close to this sort of defensive record they'll win the league is that sorry Johnny no it's all of that and that Arteta point is important because I've definitely been one of those that watches him and have written about it and wishes there'd be a bit more variety, a bit more risk at times but you see the fruits of the approach he wants quite safe possession that's why you see the kind of horseshoe passing because he doesn't want play through the middle where you might lose the ball that Lewis Skelly run if you actually watch it back you can see Arteta on the touchline telling him not to do that really?

32:41Yeah he's yelling at him to get it wide out to the left because he thinks it's a risk but what you're getting is a team that controls the game takes very few risks collective ethos is important because they defend from the front as well I don't know what you guys think I mean they remind me of a Mourinho Chelsea team they've got enough exciting moments of flair up front to keep you interested some really talented attacking players but ultimately it's based on avoiding transitions being best in the transition, safety first. And it's an incredible feat to watch at times, especially Gabriel and Saliba.

33:21Well, I was going to come back to that point because, Gregor, when you were listing those characteristics and things, is that part of it that those have both defenders? Because you touched on Chelsea there, Johnny, and we're going to talk about some comparisons with other back fours. Often when you talk about great defensive partnerships, it's like a bit of a yin and a yang thing. One's good at passing, one's quick, the other one's really physical, good in the air. these two have both got all the attributes and I think that's something that in recent years why everyone has listed say Virgil van Dijk as the best some people have said the best defender in the Premier League era are these two as good as van Dijk and have they got all the attributes that I've just outlined that sometimes you have in two defenders you've got to win something first we can say about how good this is and how good that is but Virgil van Dijk's got two league titles on his CV and the Champions League.

34:16But in terms of their ability though, I absolutely agree with that. They're really good. They're very, very good. They're very, very good. I mean, but, and they would get in ahead of Virgil van Dijk maybe this season. I'm not saying, I'm not sure they would get in ahead of Virgil van Dijk any other season. They're really good. Arsenal are really good and they've built from the back and it's an old-fashioned way of winning the league or trying to win the league to build from the back. That's what it was always said. All great teams are built from the back. And when we're going to start debating, we're going to start talking about who would be your best, who would be your composite or whatever, there's not a Man City defender in there.

34:54No. Because Man City never had that sort of wonderful defensive record. But Pablo Zabaleta, right back, has got to be one of the greatest right backs you'll ever see. Vincent Kompany and Karl Walker after him. but they weren't in a defence like this defence. So it is the collective. It is the collective without a shadow of a doubt. Johnny, just before I move on to that point. No, I think that's it. I think it's combinations. I talked about it earlier in the top of the pitch, but centre-backs, it's combinations, isn't it? I think Gabriel and Saliba, individually, neither of them I would say is better than Virgil van Dijk, but I don't think van Dijk's ever been in a partnership as good as it is.

35:37I totally agree. and it's up there with anything and Gabriel's emerged actually because Saliba was the Rolls Royce remember he got injured and the child bit went completely off the rails you know oh if it had been Gabriel we could have worn it sort of thing I'm not sure that's true anymore he's the leader he's like the growling kind of animal animal like I don't know soul of the team the other thing I was thinking of when you mentioned those teams he scored against it'd be great to see how many he got the first touch on because he's done it twice in the last week he did it against Fulham and he did it for for Giocares' goal as well that run round the back post yeah so he's done it to the front post against Fulham and the back post so they always aim for him he doesn't always get the goal but he'll get the header across that leads to the goal so he's almost unmarkable sometimes in these set pieces yeah well Martin's teed up the debate I wanted to bring in another stat from Bill Edgar's piece the fewest goals conceded by top flight teams in the opening 12 games of the season across all competitions Arsenal with 3 this season level with Chelsea in 0-4-0-5 actually level with Chelsea in 0-8-0-9 and Man United in 91-92.

36:38A few other teams in there as well. But I then went and looked at the best overall records in the Premier League era for defences. Chelsea in 2004-05 with 15 goals conceded. Arsenal in 98-99 17 goals conceded. Manchester United in 07-08 22 goals conceded. Liverpool also 22 goals conceded in 18-19 as did Chelsea in 05-06. Those defences, the back fives, the keeper and the back fours. Chelsea in 04-05 Czech Ferreira Carvalho Terry Gallas Arsenal's 98-99 Seaman Dixon Adams Keown Winterburn Man United 07-08 Van der Sar Brown Ferdinand Vidic Evra Liverpool 18-19 Alisson Trent Van Dijk Matip Robertson Chelsea's in 05-06 was basically the same as 04-05 so we'll go with those four plus Arsenal's now who's got the best one who wants to go first and then we'll try and do a composite team who's got the best best 5 out of all of them yeah collectively oh craaky is there a shout for Man United in 07-08 Van der Sar Brown Ferdinand Vidic Evra no who's your shout then my shout is my composite team and my two shouts are the same it'll be Chelsea so Chelsea 0405 is the best of those and Liverpool but for different reasons it's not necessarily the best defence but I can't At full-backs, I can't get ahead of Trent Alexander-Arnold and Andy Robertson because they created, is it 12 or 13 assists each?

38:12Yeah, yeah. You know, 26 assists from your two full-backs. I mean, it's mind-blowing. Got in behind them a lot, though, didn't you? That was the old line trotted out. Johnny, before we do a composite, the thoughts on those listed defences. Martin's put it really well, actually, because I think if you look at the Chelsea defence and the Arsenal 98-99 defence, they were built to defend. Whereas the United and the Liverpool ones were sort of built to do both things. The United had Patrice Evra, who was fantastic going forward. And actually Wes Brown, who contributed to the goal in the Champions League final in 2008.

38:48And then the Liverpool, you know, they were footballers, all of them. Matip as well, underrated footballer. So good in a different way, but they probably thrive because of the collective, because they had a very solid midfield in front of them. Gregor, you've been staring at the list on my laptop for a good two minutes while these two have been chatting. We're talking about defending, ultimately, and it's Chelsea. It's Chelsea. Do you think Arsenal's current then on the defending? Would you get Arsenal's close to the Chelsea one of 04-05? Yeah, I mean, look, if they've got 15 goals against them at the end of the season, you can say they're like the Chelsea one.

39:24But, you know, that Chelsea defence was exceptional. Yeah. Absolutely exceptional. So if we're picking composite back fives, goalkeeper and back fours, anyone want to have a go first? Who's the keeper? I'll go first. Petr Cech. Petr Cech over van der Sar. Yeah. Petr Cech, Johnny. It's so difficult. I've scored at the keeper five times and ended up with Alisson. Alisson? I can see that. I can see that. But I love van der Sar. I love Cech. David Seaman's underrated. We forget who he was. Yeah, yeah. All of them better than Raya, would you say? I'd say probably. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Gregor, Kiefer?

39:59I'll go check. Check? Yeah. I would have gone van der Sarve, so that's a vote for check. Check's in. Right back. Trent. Trent. Trent, because Trent. Look, let's just... Exactly, this is what I mean. I like attacking football. Yeah, yeah, that's fine. So I want my full-backs to be Liverpool's full-backs. Yeah, yeah, this is just... Trent Alexander-Harnold and Andy Robertson, because I look at that and go, right, those two guys, you know, You can see what Trent did for that team now that he's not there and you've got most... And also... Fully enough, Andy Robertson, it turns out not so easy to replace Andy Robertson.

40:38And that's the thing, Martin, you're quite right. Trent is still part of one of the best defences on record. So, you know, as much as he was great going forward. Any right back, Johnny? Trent's the best footballer among them. I mean, by my own best pure right back might be Dixon, but Trent's the best footballer. Absolutely.

40:59Timber's an outstanding defender we could come to he's only been he's only been in the team for a season because he missed his entire first season so we might come back to look at him as one of the greats but it's too early to do it but then you look at the rest and Ferreira's he's not the strongest out of that back four but he was brilliant but he was tremendous he was Dixon yeah he was Wes Brown was a great footballer he's not the best of these lot at right back he was a set and a half though really go on pick one oh it's hard man I'm going Timber Timber I'd go Lee Dixon so Trent wins again check and Trent left back Martin you've already said Andy Robertson Johnny well because I've got Trent I'm going to shove William Gallagher who's not even a left back no but he was part of that defense Chelsea defense he was so good he was so good and in this era of one fullback shifts and give you an extra centre back and build up blah blah blah I think he would have made a lot of sense.

41:56Gallas, Gregor? Andy Robertson, isn't it? Obviously a stupid question. I was going to vote Patrick's ever. So, right, and Robertson, we've got Cech, Trent, Robertson. Now, for the fun bit, pick two centre-backs out of Saliba and Gabriel. Is John Toew and Virgil van Dijk? It's John Toew and Virgil van Dijk. Over Ferdinand Vidic? Yes. So, listen, I completely get that for a start. But I'm trying to think of a combination. so I think Van Dyke is a bit if you've categorised John Terry Rio Ferdinand and Van Dyke as your sort of football playing centre half I think Van Dyke just wins it so I'm putting him with Vidic because I just think as a combination I like it that's a killer combination although I would like the idea of Van Dyke and Rio as well that would be classy in the modern day game that would be fantastic but John Terry was like exceptional so that's three votes for Terry right so Terry's definitely in and then we've got two votes.

42:55It's got to be Van Dijk then. No, hang on. You did not vote for Terry. No, I didn't. He voted for Van Dijk. But I'm not going to argue against Terry. It was an amazing footballer. Well, I was going to say Terry and Ferdinand. So that's three for Terry and then who's the other one? Van Dijk's got three. So Terry and Van Dijk. So the defence, by the way, is... All right, Martin. All right, Martin. You should manage West Ham. I should also say that... Which one of those West Ham defenders would get an all-time worst Premier League day? Can I also just say... wouldn't put West Ham's defence in a car park.

43:27We're getting to West Ham in just a second, but can I just say, we're going to get some very upset Arsenal fans getting in touch. No place for David Seaman, Lee Dixon, Tony Adams. Tony Adams? Not Martin Keogh, Nigel Winterman. It's funny, though. Not a place for any of them. It's funny that you go back in history, too. And also, we've got no place for the Man United defence that won the Champions League. I've got to point out, though. If Ashley Cole, who is in between... That's not the parameters, Johnny. No, I know, but he joined that Chelsea defence. So I almost think of him. I mean, he was the best of the lot.

43:57He was. If you were picking the best ever, yeah. So there you go, listeners, get in touch. What did we get wrong? What did we get right? Someone point out where Martin Samuel is wrong so that I can bring it up on next Thursday's show. Get in touch with me, Tom.clot. At the Times.clot. We let you go first as well. You then influence the room. That's all I'm saying. Oh, there we go. Greg, are you giving Greg a dagger in the studio? That's the last thing you want from McCollum. Someone who can influence the room. Yeah. You've got Gregor scared next to you going, oh, okay, Mr. Samuel, I agree with you.

44:28Anyway. Just because you didn't get any play. Anyway, let's move on to talk about Newcastle. A big win for them against Benfica side, managed by Jose Mourinho, of course, talking about good defences. It wasn't very good at St. James' Park. Just very quickly on a big talking point from this game, maybe a controversial opinion, maybe not a controversial opinion. Nick Pope's throw for Harvey Barnes' goal, not that good in my book. Harvey Barnes' finish much better than the throw. And also, Peter Schmeichel used to do that all the time. He was talking about good goalkeepers doing things. Very impressive.

44:58He threw it a long way. The defender missed it. Harvey Barnes' finish was much better. Anyone disagree? I mean, the defender did make a pick zero of it. It was a good throw. It's a good throw. It's a good lob. It's an excellent finish. Great finish. So just to be clear, Greg, you agree with me is what you're saying. Yeah, yeah, fine. Thank you very much. The interesting thing is that actually you might just as well teach the goalkeeper how to throw the balls, how to kick the balls. There's all of this sort of movement towards, oh, we need a footballing goalkeeper. Now, I know you can't pick the ball up from a back pass, so that limits how much you can throw it.

45:35But you can definitely be more accurate with a throw than with a pass. I mean, the reason goalkeeping in handball is the hardest goalkeeping that you'll ever do, as Peter Schmeichel will always tell you, is because you can actually throw a ball where you want it to go in the net. You've got a lot more chance of kicking it where you want to go in the net. Throwing is a very, very underrated quality for goalkeepers in modern football because everything is now about, oh, can you clip it to there? Well, what about if you can throw it? I spoke to Peter about that when we did the book and he made the point that with a throw you can get bend on it, which you can't really with a kick unless, you know, I know you can slice it, but it's a really hard skill.

46:22Yeah, yeah, Edison can do it. But he would talk about throwing to Kinchelskis or to Giggs or to Lee Sharp and, you know, there's the two throws. It's like a corner, there's the inswinger and the outswinger, but what you can do is bend it into someone's path. so for sure for sure if you can train that skill particularly when you want to transition after a set piece this might be another retron maybe it's another trend coming back this season but a good win for Newcastle goals for Anthony Gordon and two for Harvey Barnes very interesting season they're having I know it's all very early but in the top eight in the Champions League table 14th in the Premier League tough to do both isn't it we've had this debate this is like two years ago all over again isn't it Greg?

47:03yeah it's like kind of particularly I think how references all the wingers have been so productive in the Champions League but not quite the same in the Premier League Anthony Gordon was obviously outstanding in this game I think getting a line gun into the team and properly acclimatised to the way they play will be big for Newcastle as well because there's no doubt he'll be a good sign in I don't think I think he will be but obviously Murphy played in this game and he's been uber reliable and he's seen off more players than you can think of they keep trying to replace him It reminds me that there was a period of about 10 years that Tottenham spent fortunes, I'm not going to say millions because players didn't go for millions back then, but they spent fortunes trying to replace Mark Falco.

47:47And he just saw every single striker couldn't quite, and then Mark Falco would come back in and he'd win his place back, and then next year they'd buy someone else, right, we've got to get rid of Mark Falco. And then by the way through the season, We've got to get Mark Falko back in it saying the guy's got any goals. It's a bit like that. But Johnny, on Newcastle's season so far and how it started for them, obviously a very turbulent summer, Volta Marder coming in looking good. Yeah, I wonder if they've got a really good season brewing actually because even when they were losing at the start of the year and not winning, they were playing quite well.

48:21What they've done is they've survived the turbulent summer and actually seem to, and this is Eddie Howell all over, but he seems to have actually come out with a stronger sort of spirit because of it. they haven't had Wiesa on the pitch Wiesa's going to be a great asset for them and Volta Mad has just been a revelation just that sort of little X factor that maybe they didn't have before so we can see them managing to do both because obviously my tee up for this was slightly oh maybe they might look like they're choosing but in a Premier League where the big teams aren't looking dominant it's a bit up for grabs I think they can work their way back into the top echelons and what they've done is return to being solid and they conceded seven goals so if they get fired up front that's the solid base that Eddie Howe's team at their best have always had they're definitely competitive they'll definitely be competitive so we could see them going through to the Champions League knockouts and going into the competition and then still staying up there in the Premier League to be qualified yeah they could yeah definitely Johnny's right I think they could definitely be like Villa in the last season It's touch and go every season now.

49:30There's so many teams trying to get into that top five. Absolutely. Positive signs for Newcastle. Now Martin Samuel understandably feeling very pleased with himself for picking the correct back four and goalkeeper. No such thing as correct. Let's balance things out a little bit by finishing with a conversation around West Ham United beaten at home by Brentford on Monday facing Leeds United on Friday. I'm predicting that as well, by the way. Mavropanos, Kilman, Taddeebo. No, no, it wasn't Mavropanos. We found someone worse. Yes. But, so, Johnny, West Ham, it's a pickle, isn't it? I think they're in real trouble, real trouble.

50:13That Brentford performance was one of the most alarming I can remember from a team, well, any Premier League team, really, but a team that has pretensions of being half competitive. I mean they lack athleticism for a start really lack athleticism which is a problem for Nuno weak defensively toothless up front and not a lot in the middle I mean that's not a good recipe is it? apart from that and even the keeper you wouldn't choose either so I don't know when you say they're in real trouble are you talking relegation trouble? for sure for sure because we've talked about it on this pod before but the teams that are up are actually a lot better than last year.

50:56They can't rely on others failing. I don't, at the moment, see where they're going to win a lot of games. The stadium's got no morale whatsoever and it's affecting the players. I mean, Nuno's been speaking about that. It's a horrible cocktail. Silence. It's extraordinary. You watch, even through the TV, you watch games and there's no atmosphere. There's nothing. It's not a criticism. It's just the reality. And obviously there's been a boycott and lots of fans left early and stuff. But the boycott was completely counterproductive because it's the new manager in his first game. It's not going to change anything at the club.

51:32So the boycott's completely counterproductive. Has this been brewing for a while, Martin, or is it more the combination of what Johnny outlined, of good teams coming up and changing manager? It's been brewing because West Ham have bought really, really badly. You know, all of the stuff about we haven't spent any money and I haven't spent any money and this. they've sold their best players that much is true but West Ham have always sold their best players so there's nothing unusual in the fact that Declan Rice has gone and they do have a habit of selling their best players their biggest local rivals which doesn't really seem the smartest thing but the buying has been abysmal Tim Steyton who was a director of football there you just don't know what was he looking for are they slow we like them slow are they old injury prone add that one to the list you look at it and think how can you assemble a midfielder people that can't run and a defence of people in the middle that can't run two old slow strikers that is absolutely true but that is also what they've got and I just wanted to bring in on Nuno then and that first game and the atmosphere and also, but the team selection was staggering for me and a friend of mine who's a West Ham season ticket holder messaged me saying this is the oddest and worst team selection and then substitutes that he's seen.

53:03That I can understand. That I totally understand. I've got a season ticket, I've never ever used it when one of my legs goes on the season ticket. My brother goes, my brother's messaging me saying this team, I don't, you know. I think Andy Irving might be the most unknown most anonymous Premier League footballer in the league I think a lot of people would say who's that or Andy Irving and you go what? and that's not a criticism of him but it's like that's a weird thing for a club out West Ham to have, there's a player on their team that a lot of Premier League followers of Premier League football would not know and it looked like Nuno had picked the basis of the team apart from two or three guys that are absolutely undroppable like Legasar and Bowen it looked like he'd picked a team based around who he'd had the most time to work with I thought it was a team like when Jose Mourinho picks a team to show I've not got enough four keepers on the bench but it looked to me like it was who did I have to work with in the build up most time within the build up to this game right these guys get in you look at that and think yeah but there's a reason they haven't gone away on international duty you know there's a reason these people have gone away on international duty and the reason these people haven't you know the kid that he played at full back he played him on a he played him on the completely opposite side and you had Walker Peters on the other side and then they both get hooked at half time.

54:46Dave, who sits in with the season tickets, he is one of those fellas that goes to the reserve game. He said, I've never seen him play in that position. He said, I must have seen him play 40-odd times. As a left-back. For the reserves, I've never seen him play left-back. So then broadening it out then, West Ham, as I say, playing Leeds, who are three places above them at the bottom of the table, four points ahead of them. We've got Wolves bottom with two points, West Ham on four, Nottingham Forest, who we've already talked about, Then Burnley and Leeds, newly promoted, of course, Sunderland flying high up the table.

55:17How are we looking at this relegation battle? Because you've got Pereira with a new contract at Wolves, West Ham have changed manager, Forest have changed manager twice, and then Burnley and Leeds looking okay, Gregor? You know, they're showing promising signs. It's a huge game Friday night, isn't it? Oh, man. But they're all huge. Once you're in that bottom three, mate, there's no such thing as a small game. But, you know, we had the conversation about the top of the table, didn't we, a few weeks ago where, oh, our team's going to barge in, Bournemouth Crystal Palace or will the established order come back are we going to see that with the bottom of the table this season will the established order and if the established order of recent seasons is the teams that came up go back down can those three teams get out of it can they all get out of it can the three teams in the bottom three Wolves, West Ham and Nottingham Forest can they all escape relegation or will one of them go down I think Nottingham Forest should yeah I mean Sunderland is the massive surprise and outlier if you look at the teams above Fulham are going to go down and then it's Newcastle who are going to have a good season Brentford's could it's still possible but they look like they look good they look like it's been a fairly smooth transition and they know there's familiarity with Keith Andrews and he plays effective football so like they look committed to what he's doing Everton party time at the new stadium with David Moyes Aston Villa they're looking good all of a sudden Brighton everyone's favourite team then you're in the top half Man United Palace I can't all cross the finish line together though No, they can't, but that's what I know.

56:42There's always going to be a league table. So we're saying Forrest will be fine? No, I'm not saying Forrest will be fine. I'm saying if you look at that team, they should be fine. Whereas if you look at West Ham's team, there's no guarantee they should be fine. If it helps you, my friend who I mentioned said, we're going down after Monday. But I've thought that for a while. Wolves are surprising me because I thought they might have turned it around by now and the fact that they haven't suggests to me that they're in trouble I think Wolves are a wild card for exactly that because the tailspin or rather the form under Pereira now seems to be a bit of a tailspin but you know the Wolves have always got the ability to sack and regenerate they've done that before so I worry for Pereira and I think their safety might rely on who the next manager is quite honestly looking at the season ahead and Forrest okay Leeds I think maybe the most precarious of the three that came up because they just seem to be working so hard to get any points at the moment but West Ham I don't see what Nuno can do no I don't I don't see where he's got to go because you go right okay right Sean dies you can go right we're going to Nottingham Forrest and we get them organised like they were last season and when they were bloody hard to beat.

58:11And on the counter-attack, they're a strong team. And we've got good players. And we've got good players. Douglas Lewis. And now, right, we can set up. But you look at West Ham, and this is where you are with West Ham, is that you think, right, okay, if he goes in and says, right, we're going to be really hard to beat. You go, well, you can't possibly be really hard to beat because you've got Max Kilden, Mavropanos and Toledo. who have got to be the worst three centre-halves, you know, we've had down there for quite some time. So there's no way you can be hard to beat. Right, OK, so what we'll do is, you know, we can compete in this area.

58:51We'll press. We'll press. No, we can't press because we've got absolutely no legs in midfield whatsoever. And Thomas Tzucek is still getting in the team and, you know, he's got no one out there. All right, OK, well, we'll throw caution to the wind. will attack like lunatics yeah well we haven't got a centre forward through Bob so it's give the ball to Jaron Bowen it's give the ball to Jaron Bowen they're at the point now where they're really desperate for Somerville to turn up very faintest flashes but there is nothing almost like the way that West Ham have been run their complete inability to take a step forward you know that's one way of looking at it from David Moyes on numerous occasions they'd almost deserve to go down the way the club has been run and that this lack of wit or intelligence when everyone around them really is smarter that ownership ended up twice doing an SOS to David Moyes to save them because they'd run out of ideas not just save them win them the Europa Conference yeah but he didn't come in to win them the Europa Conference so he came in to keep them up there you go West Ham fans if you've got views do get in touch with me tom.clark at the times.co.uk we'll have to leave it there Martin Samuel Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday we'll see you then