Man Utd stun Liverpool and Forest sack Postecoglou

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the time. So, what do you get when you're the Premier League champions, spend£400m in the summer, sign one of the best strikers in Europe and then suffer four defeats in a row for the first time in 10 years? Is it a blip? Is it a season of transition? Or is it a mini-crisis? On today's show, we'll be discussing Liverpool's worrying form as they lose again, this time at home to a Manchester United side inspired by Ahmad Diallo, Brian Bumo and good old Harry Maguire. One club definitely in crisis territory are Nottingham Forest and Postacoglu sacked after just 39 days in charge.

0:42We'll debate the latest at the city ground and also talk Villa, Tottenham, Arsenal, Sunderland and loads, loads more. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and joining us down the line from the glorious north we have Charlotte Dunker. Charlotte, hello. Morning, you alright? Yes, fine. It's been a wonderful start to our time in a new studio at News UK. building. However, the tech has failed us this morning. We do not have you on a video screen. We can hear you, but we can't see you.

1:11Just for the people who consume this content via YouTube, you don't get Charlotte's wonderful face beaming back at you. Just your excellent views on football instead. Let's dive straight in then to Anfield. And I'm going to start by using the excellent report from Paul Joyce, which you can read on the Times website now, which finishes with this excellent line, which kind of sums up how I think Liverpool fans are probably feeling this morning. he said there was time for one final Gakpo miss as he headed wide in front of an open goal this was one miss too many on an afternoon when small margins pointed to bigger problems so four defeats in a row for the first time since 2014 under Brendan Rodgers and as I said at the start what is happening at Liverpool Gregor I'm going to start with you I was looking at Alison yeah yeah we're all looking at Alison it's going to be coming in a minute but what is happening at Liverpool is this a season of transition is this a blip or are we at the start of a little mini crisis for Arnaud's life I have no idea Tom oh for goodness sake I mean you've got to say it's a mini crisis you've outlined there 10 years it's a long time it's come from it's not come from nowhere I mean the start of the season has been pretty underwhelming in terms of performances the results you know they won the first five I think kind of masked that and we were all questioning what that meant and now we kind of know the answer I think to an extent that the kind of balance of the team has been thrown completely out of kilter that's not just about new faces it's about a kind of a tweak to the system overall it's more attacking it's been a line that's kind of been trotted out in the last 24 hours is that they've kind of swapped control for chaos and I think there's a lot of truth in that but it almost felt like Slott was embracing that you know when that was put to him it was put to him after the Bournemouth game I think it was in the open day of the season because it was like the end of it was like a basketball game and he's like you know this is basically saying this is the kind of football I want to play this is what I want my team to look like if it's a throw up between you know a bit more caution and control or real entertainment and trying to score lots of goals then he'll take the latter and this is the result that's only one aspect of this there are many others there are the kind of declining form of several players, there are players taking time to acclimatise but I think the biggest thing, the most important thing is that fundamental change to their system As you say, lots and lots of factors to discuss lots of individuals to discuss as well but Alison, what would you classify this as that Liverpool are in at the moment?

3:57Heartbreaking, head scratching Heartbreaking and head scratching Yeah, I think that's fruffly along the same lines as what Gregor said, but just with slightly fewer words. I mean, in terms of those players that Gregor has hinted at there and individuals, are we looking at players that, are we just simply going, oh, this is new players, lots of change in system, need time to bed in, or are there wrong decisions being made? Because it was quite striking yesterday, you know, Hugo Eketike, one of the many big signings, but probably the one that started the best and yet is on the bench for a big game that they need to win.

4:28No, absolutely. There are lots of tests that Slott is going through at the moment. Let's not forget, he's still a relatively new manager to the Premier League. But one of the tests, which he didn't have last season, is what is your man management approach to having signed players that headline acts and cost a lot of money? How do you bed them in? What's the best thing to do? and he decided for this game what he needed to do and maybe for some political reasons as well as footballing reasons he felt it was important to start with Isaac as a show of faith. Yeah. A player who knows the Premier League very well and therefore wouldn't be phased by the visit of Man United to Anfield.

5:15So he was mentally on top of what the game would require of him. It's easy to say with hindsight it was the wrong decision but I said that at the start of the game. I said, I don't want this line-up. I don't like it. What did you want? So you wanted Ekotike? I wanted Ekotike on. Did you want Wirtz on the bench as well? That was interesting as well. He's clearly decided he can't... The conversations he's had with Wirtz is that we understand you're taking your time to acclimatise. This is not a lack of faith in you. We just feel he can handle being told you're going to come off the bench and maybe make a difference and that suits him.

5:51and probably that approach didn't suit Isaac in the moment. And I can see how it would have looked. I mean, Gregor says Slott is embracing the chaos, but it would have been ludicrously chaotic to have, I think, not had Subozlai as part of your attacking formation and your midfield approach because he's so good and that is his best position. And so it would have meant the pressure on the midfield if he'd put Subozlai started him right back. And then the pressure on the defence, which is struggling at the moment, would have been too much, even though that's how the game ended. Yeah, I'm going to come back to players like Sir Bosley in a second.

6:29But Charlotte, just your view on what we're terming this in here. We've had a bit of heartbreak. We've had a bit of confusion. We've had suggestions at a mini crisis. I think, Gregor, you just about went there, didn't you? Charlotte, how would you sum up what's happening at Liverpool at the moment? I think they've dropped so far below the expectation that everyone had of them based on what they did last season, which I think they went beyond expectation. in terms of winning the league in the first season under slot. And then spending all that money in the summer, I think everyone expected this to be like the best Liverpool we've seen maybe in the last decade and for them to just stroll to the title again.

7:05So I think if we compare the expectations to the reality, then obviously it is a crisis, isn't it? But it wasn't that long ago that they were playing badly and they were still winning. So they're not that far off the top. but for because the expectations are so high four defeats in a row everyone is having seems to be having a nervous breakdown about it but yesterday what was by margins they should have scored maybe like four or five goals I know it's all ifs, buts and maybes but if they'd scored those goals this conversation today would have been so much different and would everyone have been saying Liverpool are back the firepower's there Cody Gatpo's the greatest centre forward ever he could have had about five couldn't he He could, and he should have.

7:53So I get why everyone's saying it's a crisis and all this sort of stuff, but I just think they're so close to getting things right as well, and they are in this transition, as Slot has said, in terms of they spent so much money and they're changing the way they're doing things. I just think the most surprising thing is how Gregor described it. It's like a basketball game. There was no midfield in the end. it was just lump it up see how we can attack Manchester United and see if we can score and they just couldn't there just doesn't seem to be that strategy and that plan that we saw under slot last season so it's an interesting one It's very messy isn't it that's the thing A lot of that is because if they're going behind or they've got something that they need to chase that creates this they're basically 4-2-4 in the end and they had Verts and I think Jones in midfield and then It's supposed to be one of your best players at right back.

8:50That's insane. But, you know, that's because they were chasing the game and their defensive fragility is the reason for that. Well, that's why I wanted to ask you about this because there's lots of strands here in the midfield that Charlotte brings up and the new players. And I want to talk about Mo Salah in a minute. Where's Mo Salah gone, everyone? But Gregor, that defence, opening of a game, big game at home. Virgil van Dijk is an absolutely, massively brilliant defender. That was bad defending for the goal, wasn't it? Yeah it's hard to really See what he was doing He was trying to pass on the man But I wasn't even sure that he was passing on the man Behind the runner in Bumo So he just Completely got that wrong or whether he was wanting to let him Run offside but also kind of just Highlighting The run It was by defending yeah but it was rare I mean if Van Dijk's form Starts to follow you then they're in big trouble Because this was actually Canati's Probably best game of the season he's had an absolute nightmare of a season so far and he was decent in this game I also just keep coming back to it if you look at their back five actually from last season three of the players aren't there Mamad Ashwili is a good goalkeeper but there's something, it's all these intangibles about having you've got Andy Robertson, Trent, Alisson and those two centre-halves you knew that was like that's your base, it's not there anymore That's a small thing but I was working in the office yesterday and several people said Alisson saves that from the Mbouma it's a good finish at his near post but some people were saying Alisson saves that part of it's just about presence too and as I say you look to the man to your right and the man to your left and who's behind you who's calling you know all these things it's about that sort of familiarity and it's just that's been Liverpool's base for a long long time and it's been picked apart I've noticed in recent weeks Liverpool have started a bit slowly and Van Dijk in particular has as well plus you had But so when there's a big incident in the opening minute, you kind of think they're not on it.

10:48So Van Dijk's problem was that he was trying to clear the ball further up the pitch. Back of his head, he's thinking, back of someone else's head, that should have been... Maybe subconsciously he's thinking, why hasn't the game been stopped? So he's out of position. He's thinking about something else. And it's early in the game. So I've noticed this with Liverpool. They don't look sharp in the opening exchanges. And I don't know why that would be necessarily. But you could say, well, maybe it's an age thing. Maybe if you're the sort of defender Van Dijk is where it's a lot about his knowledge of the game and his positioning as opposed to his raw pace or whatever.

11:25He has an aura. He's the sort of defender who doesn't engage very much. He does shepherds and makes players, attacking players feel like, what do I do now? but early in the game when all things are possible you know that goal happened because Brian Mbumo was quickest to react to an incident further up the pitch pelted forward and was alert and the Liverpool back line were in that moment not quite there hadn't fully engaged with the fact the game had started and there had been a clash of heads well it wasn't a clash of heads was it it was a knock on the back of the head that meant McAllister was on the floor.

12:06Also just before that, there was a throw-in, Liverpool's own throw-in, and it was one of them where he tried to throw it inside and McAllister hook it forward and he just completely shanked it. So they started poorly. United, they started brilliantly. Well, yeah, Charlotte, I want to bring you in on United and then we'll probably fold in some other Liverpool as well. But Amarim's tactics for this game, so much has been made about his tactics, about his team selection, and I was discussing it with our colleague Paul Hurst beforehand, going, oh gosh, it's interesting. he's thrown Casemiro in played for Brazil for 90 minutes there was lots of chat about the fact that Ugarte would probably start Maguire back in defence alongside Luke Shaw but Amarim got it right didn't he Charlotte?

12:42Yeah I think all his big team selections worked as well I think he went more attacking maybe than people thought in terms of bringing Ahmad Diallo in as that wing back he thought he maybe would have gone with two more defensive minded full backs given who they were playing but as you just said all of those decisions worked out I thought Ahmad was brilliant. Harry Maguire, again, was exceptional. And he explained afterwards why he picked him. And he said it was more to do with the experience and the mentality. Because so often when Manchester United have gone behind, especially last season in Ruben Amarim, the heads totally go and then they end up conceding goals really quickly.

13:21So he sort of seems to be learning from his mistakes, which I don't think we've been able to say a lot in terms of Ruben Amarim's reign, to be honest. so I know a lot of the focus is on Liverpool and what they didn't do right but for once Manchester United and Ruben Amarim did get right what they were trying to do Yeah, they definitely set their stall out and achieved what they were aiming for definitely in that first half and then those opening exchanges there's lots of strands on Man United that I want to come to in a minute but I have just jokingly whispered it Alison Mohamed Salah, where's he gone?

13:53What's happening? Even that chance that dropped to him in the box in the second half and it kind of goes a good couple of feet wide and you're thinking, what's going on, Mo? Where have you gone? Is this a worry for Liverpool? It must be a worry for Liverpool. It definitely is a worry. I mean, there's loads of goodwill towards him. He's not become a pariah overnight. I mean, his stats for Liverpool and his influence on the club has been immense. I suspect it's a combination of, at some point, someone their age does hit them and you don't know when that's going to be. And all the time Liverpool were talking and we were talking about Liverpool, talking about his contract.

14:27it was is it sensible to give so much money to someone who might be about to tip over the edge which I think you said yes and I thought please give him everything he wants because I didn't see I didn't see the physical signs of him waning for at least another 18 months or two years I didn't he didn't look like someone who was who wasn't going to carry on being the player we know him to be it's tough when you're approaching your mid-30s though the first sign of any drop off in form and that's the go-to sort of And you don't know when it will be. You don't know when it will come. And it might be that it has just arrived.

15:02But equally, he may not like the new set-up. He may not feel he fits the patterns. And as Gregor said, no Trent Alexander-Arnold anymore. Just very quickly to wrap up Liverpool then. And Charlotte, you've already kind of alluded to this. So just for you two in the studio then, because I think Salah embodies this question quite well. Is this, it comes back to the blip or crisis thing, you know, are they and Mo Salah and the players going to click? They've got Frankfurt in the Champions League this week. or do we see this carrying on, this kind of inconsistency? Charlotte said she feels like they're very close to clicking and that this game was perhaps a good example of that.

15:34What do you two think? I think they can only improve. I don't think it's going to get much worse than this. It wasn't as if Liverpool were bad. It wasn't as if they were bad. Martin Samuel's calling this morning. It can. I know, I know, I know. And hitting the woodwork doesn't count as a shot on target. So there you go. It looks dramatic, but it's a miss and another miss and another miss. But I do feel that it's about slot. I mean, Frimpong should have maybe come on earlier than he did for Salah. It's about slot recognising that Salah is or isn't going to suddenly come to life in the last five minutes of a game.

16:10If you don't think he is, pull him off a bit sooner. Frimpong looked exciting and put in a few good crosses. And Gakpo has been consistent all season, actually. Not just in this game. He's been eye-catching all season. Give Hugo a run in the team. I think there's a lot there the problem is I think that the defence is looking under pressure and it's not coping with that pressure but you defend from the front do that better. Gregor just very quickly will it carry on or will it all click? Well everything's possible now I mean I don't mean that I mean everything's on the table as well Salah how much longer do you go maybe he's not guaranteed start or like I think he's got Slot and If he made decisions like that They'd have been huge in the past But now when you're on a run like this Anything's on the table He can pick You know he can Tear up the team if he wants He can Say no I'm going to I'm going to get Verts in the team And leave anyone out He can do what he wants now But I think I don't think it's going to be A sort of overnight fix I don't think they're going to Click their fingers And get back to winning Winning most weeks I think I don't know I think I think confidence has been eroded as well and I say again part of that is just his new faces and and the absence of some really familiar ones and part of that is looking at someone like Salah or and thinking normally like last season how often did he get he just he found them the goal of the moment that changed everything and it's not happening you're just not having the same level of sort of belief and confidence in the players around you Yeah very interesting Liverpool fans get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk let's go back to Manchester United then Charlotte you mentioned some of the players that I think were excellent and I think Ahmad in particular down that right hand side with Brian Bumo Paul Hurst our colleague's written a piece on the Times website now about that kind of blossoming relationship very early days of course and I thought Senna Lamond's in goal as well it's only two games but quite a few Manchester United fans David got in touch with me yesterday saying early days but a monumental upgrade on Andre Onan and Altai Bayern dear young and has huge potential Charlotte any other players that you'd think that particularly stood out for Manchester United in this game?

18:23I think they're the key ones I think the thing about Lomens is he's 23 years old when it was deadline day when he was brought in and the decision was obviously between bringing experience in Martinez or this unknown goalkeeper and given the way that Andre Inanna had been playing it seemed a bit of a risk but he's commanding his area in a lot better way than anyone saw under Inanna and I know there was some sarcastic cheers in the last home game against Sunderland when he actually managed to catch a cross. But that shows you just how far Manchester United's expectations had fallen with what they expect from the goalkeeper, given the displays from Inanna in recent months.

19:03So I thought he played well. He's gone to somewhere like Anfield as a Manchester United player and not seen fazed by him, especially given his age as well and relatively lack of experience. I thought he was key and given the way the defence played as well I think having someone who they can trust behind them who can actually catch a cross and can catch a ball I think it's going to give them confidence as well so I think he played really well but yeah Ahmad was obviously unfortunate to come off obviously he got that booking didn't he which is why he was substituted which sorry to interrupt you I thought again was good hammering because I think Ahmad and Casemiro both got booked didn't they early in the second half He learned from that after the Chelsea game because Casemiro got sent off in that game, didn't he?

19:49Because he'd been carded and he should have brought him off sooner and he didn't. And then that ended... Well, it was ridiculous, that game, wasn't it? It was just too chaotic. Whereas it's another example of him maybe learning from those mistakes because both of those got brought off quite quickly. But yeah, that relationship between Ahmad and Brian Mbwamo seems to be working really well. and full-backs are the key to Amarim's system. And a lot has been made about have they brought in the right players in that position? Diogo Delo isn't as good as a wing-back as Ahmad is. So if he can be the one to be consistent down that side, then that might go some way to solving some of Manchester United's problems.

20:34But I think maybe the biggest thing here is going to be consistency because I'm not sure if you remember when they beat Manchester City when Amarim first took over last year and Fernandes came out and basically said it means nothing if we can't back it up and they didn't yeah they've got this game against Brighton haven't they now that they need to now show that they can follow it up and get a third win on the spin for Ruben Amorim that'll be the key thing for him Gregor I want to make a final final word for the big man Harry Maguire big heart big goals big head what a guy what a guy I've got his last six Man United goals here a 91st minute equaliser against Porto 93rd minute winner against Leicester 47th minute winner against Ipswich 121st minute winner against Lyon 89th minute equaliser against Grimby 84th minute winner against Liverpool from by the way one of the most underappreciated crosses I think we're going to see maybe this season Fernandes the volleyed cross how many players would try that and it would go miles into the stand but Harry Maguire I mean I know I love him on this podcast listeners will already know you've got to admire him He's great at owning the stage after those moments.

21:44Yeah, the knee slide. And then he just gently jogged back over to the Man United fans and just stood there in front of them. Everybody's ready to take centre. Come on, Harry, get back in, mate. Don't give me abuse he's taken. You've got to live it. No, that went through my mind as well. I remember that period where everyone was like, why are you not leaving the club? West Ham wanted them and all this. There was so much of a feeling that his time was done and you've got to go out and try and rebuild your career somewhere else. And he's like, no. very wisely and sort of with hindsight like I believe I'll be able to get back in this team and yeah he's shown great personality huge personality and leadership and and I think the way they defended too like so much of it the crikey of it it's about 20 minutes to go you're thinking can you get they can't get any deeper yeah yeah but they were still managing to narrow all the spaces like the space you know very little room anywhere in the box everything was going down the sides they were blocking or heading everything away and even when the goal came it was like I think it was Dorgu running across and trying to block it and it went through his legs and that's how they how they got through but like Man United can't play that way against every team the problems will come when they've got to try and be the main protagonist and break teams down they're creating more chances they are they are looking looking like a more cohesive sort of attacking unit but also I would say Cunha Cunha was brilliant I mean some of the moments when he was trying he was holding the ball up and using his He won a lot of good free kicks as well late on as well.

23:11Yeah, but there were times where he could have won the free kick and he stayed on his feet and he kept going and he kept the ball in play and he was outstanding too. There were a lot of big performances for United, but most importantly, it was just like, they looked cohesive, looked like a team. Yeah, positive signs for Manchester United. And there you go, David. He emailed in this morning to say, Tom, make sure you get a mention for Mr Man U, Mr Harry Maguire. So there you go. Moving on to the other big story of the weekend, probably one of the biggest stories of the season, Nottingham Forest.

23:39We said, what is going on at Liverpool? What is going on at Nottingham Forest? Last season, everyone's neutral's favourite team, bucking the trend, barging their way into the top four, then the top six, sack Nuno. Now they've sacked Ange after just 17 minutes after full time of a 3-0 defeat against Chelsea. He's out the door, back on his way, 39 days after his appointment on the 9th of September. This is absolute chaos. I'm sure Greg and Alison, you wrote about this in the Sunday Times. But Charlotte, I'm going to come to you first because let's do what the latest is as we record this on Monday morning.

24:13I'm sure by the time you listen to this, we might have had some news on the appointment of Andrew Poscoglu's successor. But Charlotte, just give us the latest of what the news is at Nottingham Forest. The latest is we expect Sean Dyche to be announced as a new manager, hopefully today at some point. So over the weekend, obviously we got sacked straight after the game, which it was and wasn't a surprise. I think just the manner of the manner. As soon as Maranakis left his seat in 60 seconds, the right was on the wall. And then the confirmation came through, like you say, really quickly after the full-time whistle.

24:49Maranakis wasn't even in the stadium. He didn't tell him himself that he'd been sacked. And then it was really down. And on fast day, it was between Deich and Mancini. I think the money involved with really similar management profiles, which made me think normally Maranaki has an idea. When you go to sack a manager, he has an idea of who's going to come in. That's why the decision is made on the timing, because the next person's lined up. And so the two managers that were being linked, it made me think that they didn't really know what they were doing as much. Ideally, they want Marco Silva. He's obviously still in a job.

25:28so not only would he cost money which when you've sacked two managers and it's not even the end of October isn't great for your PSR would be a struggle and then I think the indications they were getting from Silva was that he was happy to stay at Fulham obviously still the start of the season and then overnight the development was that Daesh was the front runner so we expect him to be confirmed as Poster Coglu's successor today Very interesting Gregor, you are off to Nottingham Forest's Europa League home game against Porto. Should have been a celebratory occasion, another sign that they are back in the big time.

26:06If I had said to you at the start of the season that I was going to send you to Nottingham Forest against Porto to watch Sean Dyche in his first Nottingham Forest game as manager after Ange Postacoglu had been in, after Nuno Espirito Santo had been sacked, would you have been surprised? A little bit. A little bit. I mean the one thing Nottingham Forest almost like almost got me and Maranac has almost got me almost got me thinking maybe he's just sort of he's calmed down a little bit he's managed to get a club that's fairly tranquil extraordinary season last season after all the chaos since promotion to the Premier League with all the number of signings and you know Run-ins with the Premier League And match officials Everything that's gone on before He's elected upon Like A fairly kind of Tranquil and Happy Club Look at this And then boom It will always be this way Because he's so Like combustible And Like Just Lives off emotions And Makes all his decisions Based on emotions And Who Another one that you would never see in a million years is that he hires Edu like this is this big you know big coup in the summer as global head of football or whatever it is you know basically poached him from Arsenal and this guy has managed to fall out with there was you know it was on Nuno's side as well but he's fallen out with the manager within a matter of days hired Ange and now Edu is hiring Sean Dyche like who would ever ever in a million years have seen that and like how can it be seen as anything other than like short term as well like Martin Samuel I referenced his call on this morning about yeah you know it can McCarthy quote it can get worse it's basically saying the fear of relegation is that makes clubs make these decisions now and it's probably true I mean Sean Dyche was hired by Everton to do to do the kind of same job although it was in worse circumstances and he did it but But Sean Dyche will never be the man that they look at to take them forward for the next two, three years.

28:27No way. Yeah, Charlotte, I want to come back to you on that because you were saying, and Greg has talked about that idea of a short-term deal and you saying about an interest in Marco Silva. This is obviously, you know, when Nand was appointed, a lot of people were saying, oh, well, you know, it's cutthroat, got rid of Nuno and he has, you know, he's hired the person that won the Europa League last year. That's the ambition for Nottingham Forest. Sean Dyche obviously has the connotations of a manager brought in to save them from relegation. But that won't be how Nottingham Forest and Evangelos Maranakis are looking at, will they?

28:56Or will they? No, I think that obviously the aim is still the same, that they hope that they can go and win the trophy and that is the Europa League, which is why Povtikolka was brought in. I think the concern bringing in someone to firefight relegation, which I don't think they're going to get dragged into a relegation battle. I think, I know we're talking about Liverpool clicking, but some of their performances this season actually haven't been that bad. They should have scored more goals than they have. I think it's been a weird few weeks. Obviously, they switched managers, they switched systems, everything changed.

29:34I don't actually think they're that bad, but they've waited 30 years to get back in Europe. They surely don't want to bring the manager in who's just going to say, oh, this is just a bit of a side distraction. We need to focus on the league because we need to make sure that we're not going to go down. They need to treat the Europa League the way that they were going to treat under Posta Coglu in terms of they need to stay and win it. Obviously, Baez hasn't got that European winning experience, so it's a new journey for him as well. But the ambition for Maranakis is still going to be exactly the same.

30:04He wants to be successful, he wants to win, he wants to win trophies. But like we say, they need to stay in the Premier League. That's going to be the main priority. So all these things have shifted in a really short space of time. But they've had to hold their hands up and, well, they should hold their hands up and admit they've made a mistake being post-coglubber. Yeah. Alison, you've been in this racket a long time. Ever seen anything like this? Well, it's fun. I mean... Not fun for a Nottingham Forest fan. No, maybe not. But it is fun and it's funny. But you have to say, what's different about it, I think, and novel, is that you've got a charismatic owner with a sort of strange approach to running a club.

30:51Very delicately put, Alison. But who has acknowledged he made a blooper very quickly? This is the unusual part. Often you'll get an owner digging in and think, you know, the whole Nuno thing was, that was really shocking because of what he'd achieved. and he looked very well positioned to fight on two fronts in Europe and in the league, given the plethora of resources they have. I mean, it did occur to me who would want to go, who would want to go to Forrest and work under Maranakis, given he is volatile, that must be quite difficult. If your day-to-day life is, I don't know what mood he's going to be, what's the big man's mood going to be today, that must be hard work.

31:33But the plus side for a manager is there's a lot of excellent players at Nottingham Forrest. So the reason Marco Silva is, one reason Marco Silva was connected to their job is Marco Silva's frustration at Fulham, his lack of change, lack of input, lack of new faces to work with. And if he went to Forest, he would have this bounty of wonderful players that he could juggle around, something he's not been able to do so much at Fulham. It's been much more stable and there might be something enticing about that. but so you've got this caricature character of the owner who actually has done the right thing in this instance and we don't it's a leap to say that he's acknowledged a mistake well he has acknowledged a mistake I'd love to hear that because he's very quick to highlight his driving force and being the power behind Notting Forest Rise the fans are singing his name not long ago they sing Maranacus he does what he wants basically It's the Maranacca show So yeah What was the 39 word statement Or something like that There was no contrition Maybe It'd be nice to see that In the future Because he's so quick To accept To take all the The garlands I don't think I don't think in that statement He needed to say I got it wrong And I think that Would undermine his position And if he does listen To any advice That would be the advice Don't admit he got it wrong But we can all see He knows he got it wrong Because of the speed 39 days the speed with which he's got rid of a manager who you could easily, someone could have easily made the case, if you're appointed without a pre-season, it's going to take longer.

33:12He won the Europa League. Is that your priority? Stick with him. It wouldn't have been completely illogical, but he didn't. And also he's listened to the fans. The fans were not prepared to stick with Posta Coglio either. Yeah, one thing that Maranakis, lots of things have been angled at him, but he definitely cares about what the fans think. I think that's what kept Steve Cooper in a job for so long because the fans were so obsessed with him. Maranakis was ready to get rid of him a long time before that. But the Michelin game, they actually started to turn on Maranakis. I wasn't close enough to hear what they were saying, but they were directing things towards him.

33:45They were obviously chanting that Foster Coglu should get the sack. And that was only after, what, six games. So I think as soon as the fan sentiment had turned and had changed, I think Maranakis knew what he had to do because keeping that relationship with the fans is so important to him. So they already got rid of Nuno, which wasn't a popular decision. So to bring in someone that they once sacked so quickly, I think he already knew then what he had to do, really. Yeah, Charlotte mentions there, Greg, about fans shouting for Ange to be sacked. I mean, this guy has got maybe one of the most fascinating narrative arcs in British football history, hasn't he?

34:21You know, bit of a hipster, comes down from Celtic, starts brilliantly at Tottenham. Tottenham are going to win the league, then Tottenham turn on him, plays absolutely bonkers tactics everyone slags off his tactics then he starts parking the bus wins the Europa League still gets sacked then gets brought in at Nottingham Forest for one of the shortest reigns in football history and now he's off again maybe to never be seen again It is one of the most extraordinary It's crackers I was just remembering earlier about remember that song that the Spurs fans were singing in those first 10 games that the Robbie Williams song We're loving Big Ang instead How long ago does that feel?

34:51Can I just say I'm still singing that song I still love Big Ang I mean remember I'm walking around and just like soaking in their applause little fist pump waving to the fans like he became a cult figure and that that has been his downfall remember when they were down to nine men and they still played a high line and everyone everyone said oh isn't that amazing they lost 4-1 they lost 4-1 amazing for the wrong reasons and yet it was portrayed as something amazing and revolutionary and lovable and it was it I think honestly think if that didn't go to his head I mean I'm sure it must have done I think ultimately the Premier League chewed him up and spat him out He was so ineffective in the end You can have all your principles if you want But they've got to be for something They've got to have some sort of merit and value He lost 31 and won 13 of his last 50 Premier League games Not ideal That's not good enough And he also sort of had a sort of spiral into like Talking with such condescension to like the media, to everyone Just as if like he was the smartest guy in the room and if you can't see what we're trying to build here then I don't know what's wrong with you it's just been bizarre really bizarre because he was really exciting in those early months at Spurs and you still wonder you still thought there was a flicker potential at the start of the second season if you could keep players fit but it's ultimately his vision for the way he wants football to be played is flawed and those flaws are illuminated brutally in the Premier League and he won't be back.

36:27He won't be back. If the promoted teams hadn't been so rubbish, Spurs would have gone down with him at the helm. Well, I mean, I'm not sure that's true, is it? They focused on the Europa League because they weren't going to get relegated. I think they'd have been fine. I miss you, Ange. That's all I'm going to say. But that was mental as well. Listen, as a sports editor, can I just put on record, Ange Foster-Coglu, thanks for everything. I'll always think of you fondly. Nottingham Forest fans, maybe not. Charlotte, just before we let you go back and check on the latest news with Nottingham Forest, I just wanted to ask you about both them and one of the other teams that you follow, Wolves.

37:00Both of them in the bottom three, as Alison mentioned, teams last season when they came up not being as good as this season. Wolves losing to Sunderland, who are continuing their brilliant season. Wolves and Nottingham Forest fans, Wolves not changed their manager yet. Forest have done so twice. Should both be worried about relegation or do you think both of them have got enough to get out of that bottom three? Wolves have given their manager a new contract. Not only is he still in position, but they've given him a new contract. I would say out of the two, I'd be more concerned if I was a Wolves supporter.

37:29I think before a ball was kicked this season, you looked at what business they did in the transfer window in terms of who they lost with their key players, like Cunha and Aitnori leaving, and the players that they brought in to replace them. They're just not on the same level. Obviously, they managed to avoid relegation last season, but they had key players to get themselves out of these sticky situations. they've got a couple of they had a couple of good draws recently where you thought maybe this would be the turning point after they managed to beat Everton in the League Cup but it just doesn't seem to be working for them at all and I don't know I do fear for them this season I feel like the last few seasons they've flirted with it a bit but as you've just said before the newly promoted teams have been so bad that they've gone straight back down again whereas this season we're not seeing that so they're not going to get that get out of jail free card and I just, yeah, I fear for them that they are going to get dragged properly into the relegation battle and before a ball was kicked this season I did think that they would be in trouble and there's been nothing to suggest otherwise so far.

38:31Yeah, worrying times for Wolves but a brilliant win for Sunderland another brilliant win and a good win for Burnley as well the promoted sides putting up a really good fight so far this season. Charlotte Dunker, thank you very much for joining us on a jam-packed first half of this show. We'll let you go and check on the latest news with Nottingham Forest which you can read on the Times website later listeners it's time for a break which means it's time for Greg Robertson's time to shine Alison you can get involved in the quiz question you know but you know I know we tend to like to let Greg have it just to boost his ego the question is which team have dropped the most points at home from winning positions in the Premier League since the start of last season we'll find out after the break

39:21Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd and Gregor Robson with me. I'm delighted to say listeners, they both in unison got the answer to the quiz question, which was? Spurs. Spurs. Very good. Not quite as in unison this time as you were in the break, but it is Thomas Frank's Tottenham. Obviously, some of those incidents not being Thomas Frank's responsibility. But Gregor, you were there yesterday at Tottenham against Villa. A fantastic comeback from Villa. but let's start with Tottenham then in linking it to the stats a brilliant start an early goal but defeat in the end what did you make of this performance?

39:55Just the forward line's not clicking they're not it's a weird game we were speaking about this during the game yes I'm glad you brought this up and they like both teams they both had the same approach in terms of like when they had like a goal kick or the ball was with the goalkeeper they're trying to draw on the opposition's press and teams used to do that in order to play through it and now they do it just to go long yeah so that was like both teams approach so there was so much going on in one team's defensive third in order to try and get through and play a ball in behind for a pacey forward or there was just like a game of murder ball in the middle of the pitch yeah I thought it was great fun I thought it was absolutely crackers in the rain people sliding about looked like the players were loving sliding around Alison I said this to Greg I emailed him and Tom who were at this game for us and said this is great fun lads got no reply nothing no reply from either of them and then when I spoke to Gregor after the game after he'd been to the press conferences I said I thought that was great fun you know not the best quality but crackers and he thought oh yeah I mentioned that to Tormund we thought you were being an idiot to be honest sorry the footballing you know God superiors the moments that illuminated the game were fantastic they were great Morgan Rodgers bit of luck off Xavi Siemens to get this base but when even the Tottenham goal that cross who was the cross was it Kudus or was it Kudus cross great ball yeah pulling you back a cross goal and even Ben Thuncourt did well to keep it down connected well with it and then Bendy is called just coming back to the tactics and Alison I'll ask you about this as well because obviously being chief executive of the Thomas Frank fan club speaking to my colleague Nick who's one of the editors on the desk and is a Tottenham season ticket holder who was there yesterday who said no not criticism of Frank it's very early days but he did find the tactics a little bit stifling and he picked out something that he then showed me one of these pass maps that they show of the team and he called Nick said it's the dreaded horseshoe of where the passing goes round both flanks and it comes through Benton Kerr who sits in near the centre-backs and passes it left and right to the centre-backs.

41:51Then it goes wide to Porro and he said, this is far too simplistic but it's a good way of summing it up. Porro clips it to Kudus and says, go on, make something happen with that. Which is too simplistic for the tactics but this pitch map that he was showing me does show that Xavi Simmonds is not getting on the ball as much as he needs to and that they aren't making breaking passes. Alison, it looks like she might be about to hit me and jump across the table for daring to criticise Thomas Frank. But Gregor, firstly, you on that having been at the game. No, I think that's true. I think the difference between the two teams, and they both do that, and they both try and work the ball along the back line from left to right to kind of draw on the opponent and create space.

42:30But the difference is Villa have just had more technical players, it seemed, in the middle of the pitch. And they were able to, like Kamara would sometimes get it and play a little smart baller in the corner through the middle of the pitch, try to get Rodgers on the ball or McGinn coming in field. there was just a bit more smarts in Aston Villa's approach and I'd say by the end of the game they deserved it it could have easily been a draw Frank was right he said that it could have easily been a draw but they showed a bit more by the end of the game and there were times in the first half Nick's right you watch them knocking it around and Villa aren't even really pressing they're just saying no you can have it so like football's weird now it really is it's in a weird I'm telling you it's in a weird place there's like so much of that it used to be teams knocking around at the back but then you know eventually try and work it through the thirds and it would be like with a purpose now they do as I say they're doing that to try and draw the other team on just to create a space to not to boom it along and there was a time after the opening goal where I think it was Van de Ven played a great Diag for Koudis chested it down he scored but he was offside that's what they're trying to do and it has worked at times but when you come up you come up against Villa they're not going to play your game and it felt like for large parts of the game they cancelled each other out you've got to hand it to him Alison he's not one dimensional with his catchphrases he's not just sticking with both things can be true so far today we've had it's all on the table and football's weird isn't it follow up t-shirts coming in the new year but your thoughts on Thomas Frank and some of those tactical points that both Nick our colleague on the desk and Greg goes to make they're fair in respect to this match because I felt Villa were the more mature team they definitely seem to have more now about them more confident in the system as well as the game grew on they looked like they really put behind them that awful start they had and they looked like the Villa of Emery's last season which is an amazing turnaround isn't it cheekily a few weeks ago I was saying should we be worried about Villa absolutely not we know Unai Emery's a class act and he was going to get it right and so he has but I would say I'm not going to pile in on criticism of Thomas Frank because I think he has the tactical flexibility to acknowledge if it didn't work in this instance, he won't try it again in a similar situation.

44:49He is more than capable of mixing it up more than he did against Villa. And I think it's more about the players he's got at his disposal. There's a lot that seem to me, that seem to be a bit rabbit in headlights, a bit young, a bit naive. there's a sort of youthful feel to Spurs at the moment. They're lacking. So everyone, I think their eyes are drawn to Paulina because he's the one that's older and can control a game and is also great fun to watch because of his tackling. But they need more characters like that. So I feel like maybe Frank is setting the team up in a way that he feels they mentally can cope with what is being asked of them.

45:37But you can't win a Premier League game If one of your big new signings isn't getting on the ball That's just not going to happen Kudus is the only one who affects the game And he's been brilliant Javi Seaman's Odebert tell in flashes and moments You look at them and you think Yeah they've got something They've got a bit of dynamism pace Or like Odebert's got a nice little Skipped in and out in between two players early in the first half Yeah but they're not affecting the game I don't know whether some of that has to do with the way that they're set up you know really you'd like just to see both of them hug the touchline get the ball out to them and try and create overloads or you know get at their opposite number but that's not really the way the team's been said given everything we said about Nottingham Forest as well Penny for Morgan Gibbs-White's thoughts as well after that summer where he nearly moved to Tottenham Gregor Aston Villa excellent I thought excellent after a good start from Tottenham really came back into this game a brilliant goal from Morgan Rodgers but I have to say the winner may be the most pleasing goal I've seen in the Premier League this season every aspect of it Matty Cash's smashed finish on like the half volley that is surely one of those passes as a player that only works once in ten and then Dean you're bringing it down in that fashion probably only works once in ten and then a goal for Emi Buendia a man that probably has been tried to be sold by Aston Villa about three times in his short career already yeah yeah it was a thing of beauty as you rightly see like every part of it Cash's there was one angle from kind of from the corner flag where you saw Cash and it's like a golf swing where he just strikes it and he's watching it with his kind of leg across his body beautifully the ball spins out to him and then Dina leaps up and great athleticism to pluck it out of the sky and then flick it inside for Buendia and then Buendia's finished that's three goals in four games for him as you say he was well he was being ushered towards the door to exit in the summer he missed the entirety of 23-24 with a with a knee injury last season kind of getting back up to speed then went to Bayer Leverkusen on loan in January and Villa obviously were trying to balance the books in the summer had a few offers I think Leeds, Stuttgart he said no I want to stay and kind of prove that I can cut it because he was you can forget he was their record signing club record signing in 2021 when Jack Grealish was sold I think and they had all that money in the bank and he was one of the players they reinvested it and then there was Steven Gerrard there was Dean Smith first then there was Steven Gerrard then there was Emery there was three managers in a quick space of time it didn't really happen for him then came the knee injury so he's been there four years and it's not happened and this is a brilliant moment for him and you have to say Wynne Villa really needed him they needed that creative spark what did they go how many games they hadn't scored a goal in the first five or six games he catalyzed the win against Fulham when he came off the bench scored against Feyenoord scored the winner here great for him brilliant from Buendia and good news for Aston Villa turning it around.

48:35Alison, you were at the big game, the big game for Arsenal fans, the big game for many, many pundits and neutrals who've been wondering the big question. This time last year, December 2024, you were there at Craven Cottage, Fulham 1, Arsenal 1. And I remember on this podcast, us discussing this idea that Arsenal and Mikel Arteta just do not have it. So you were back this Saturday, this Saturday afternoon to watch them win 1-0. So my question for you, does this victory show that they now have the experience and composure to win the title? They probably do. They are embracing that sort of DNA of the club.

49:14The fans sing 1-0 to the Arsenal. It's like we don't care how unexciting we are. We know we've got a fantastic defence. And it seems to be... I think the contract... Given that at the start of the season, the debate was it's going to be between Liverpool and Arsenal, isn't it? Probably. Before the ball was kicked. Yeah. And what we've seen so far is a manager to coin Gregor's phrase embracing the chaos in slot and in Arteta you've got a manager embracing that I don't care if you're not entertained. I really don't care. There were times when this was actually quite a boring performance from Arsenal and you could see Fulham started really well.

49:57They were playing all the nice football creating the good chances. They were fearless. They often are when there's a big team at the cottage. They're good matches to go to. Go if you can get a ticket. Because they go for it. And then they got slightly weary and, oh God, they're so good defensively. God, wherever we go, there's a player. They've seen the space. They know where to be. And, oh God, here comes another set piece. They're going to do something. It's like a template now with Arteta. Stifle the opposition. Be very well organised. have faith in your set pieces and it's a routine if you can keep it going throughout the season and of course then they will win the title because that's what will get them there because they will not stutter at all and I have to say Arteta's demeanour afterwards was quite of the raised eyebrow variety like I know you were all thinking this is where we're going to get it's because you were there it's because he knew you were there last year he was like ha Alison, done it Exactly, exactly.

50:57He knew there was a narrative ready if they were to, you know, they've drawn and lost at the Cottage in the last two seasons. And it has been seen as indicative of their inability to have rigour and a calmness when it mattered. And he talked about changing history, changing the history of these games. So it mattered more than just on paper. Oh, Arsenal go to play Fulham. That can't be a key game. but it sort of was because of the recent history of it. And so it did feel significant. They do, Arsenal do, it's hard to explain. I did rather rudely say to someone, oh, this is boring. It's not boring because it's high-level stuff and it's very controlled and it's very impressive for that.

51:45But, you know, Martin Odegaard wasn't there. Eze played in his place and didn't have a great game but they were able to, that didn't matter. That's the key, I think. That didn't matter. They were able to absorb the lack of creativity, relative lack of creativity, and just be incredibly solid and calm. And so that, in terms of the character of the team and what Arteta's bringing and his demeanour, he was also asked, you know, golly, you know, now you've got, you know, before you can blink, you've got Atletico Madrid coming to play you. You know, it never stops, does it, Mikel? and he says it's the same for all the top clubs and that is the perfect answer it is a great answer none of this oh woe is me how can I possibly be expected to mount a title challenge and do well in the Champions League he feels like he knows he's got the resources and he knows he can handle it he was asked about that too as well wasn't he you know you've got such a big squad now and you know picking the team is difficult he's like it's a joy yeah speaking of that and talking about resources as well Leandro Trossard with the goal finding people who can get the goal Gabriel Trossard but just very quickly Trossard has been involved in seven goals across his last 12 games for Arsenal in all competitions three goals and four assists so you know he was someone heading towards the Ex-A-Dor another one someone heading towards the Ex-A-Dor maybe trying to be sold keeps him finds ways to use him getting key goals Gregor another stat on that defence this was the first time since November 2003 that Arsenal didn't face a shot on target in successive Premier League games that is a remarkable statistic isn't it two shots on the spin without a single shot on target against them this defence is a remarkable thing it's extraordinary yeah and you kind of look it just keeps seeing Calafiore being picked ahead of Myles Lewis Kelly and you're thinking you know the team of man mountains and there's a lot of I don't know that's almost part of it part of the kind of caution over adventure because Lewis Kelly does add a bit of that and Calafiore he does he's like a big buccaneer and horse when he flies through the middle sometimes but but ultimately they're playing someone who could be a centre half a left back but again just on the goal Gabriel is I think there are moments when you watch him attacking a set piece and you think you can't defend against him like they put like several players trying to block him and he shrugs them off without committing a foul and he's got the run at knowing where the flight of the ball is coming the flight of the ball is at that perfect sort of height, the trajectory where it's like flat and at the kind of height of his, the peak of his sleep and who no one else has got that run.

54:30He's like, I think he's almost impossible when he's trying to get that first contact on the wall. He's almost impossible to defend against. If you're putting together a video for a team and you're saying, okay, this is what I mean by a flick on from a corner, that would be the ultimate because everything about it was inch, centimetre perfect. everybody knows that he's the one that they're targeting and they know that he starts he's the only one who starts deeper in the box the rest of them start at the back post and rate that run forward and then it creates a bit of space for someone at the back and they're all just like just like piling into that six yard box like smothering the goalkeeper and the defenders it would be a nightmare and then he's running at you trying to get that first touch just to create even more chaos yeah they're brilliant at it yeah just a final word to wrap it up and I wanted to bring in Bournemouth against Crystal Palace an absolutely fantastic game from two of our favourite teams of this season so far Tony Cascarino writing in the times that it was his favourite match that he'd seen this season I'm sure it was probably lots of other neutrals favourite matches if they'd caught it as well just looking at this Premier League table then we've got Arsenal top and I know listen it's only 8 games there's another 30 left Arsenal top on 19 Manchester City after that win against Everton on 16 then Bournemouth and Liverpool both on 15 Chelsea on 14 Tottenham on 14 Sunderland up there on 14 then Palace then Manchester United and Brighton and Villa below them we've got Everton and then Newcastle are we heading towards I keep talking about this potential topsy-turvy season or linking Arsenal in are we going to have ruthless Arsenal steaming away at the top and then chaos below them what do we think?

56:00My instinct is Arsenal won't steam away at the top but I think as I said last week I just think that it's going to be more concertina, is that the right word? There's not going to be such a big gulf between the top and the rest and even between the top five or six in the rest. That always seems to happen over the course of the season. You get the big six, seven, eight who are challenging for Europe and then a massive drop off. I don't see that this season. Well, I think we have, surely the world, not just people here, want Bournemouth to break into that top four. Because what's the point of us praising their model and their management and their players if they don't do that?

56:43I want Sunderland to break into the top four. Now that would be a story. Regis Le Briss would be the manager of the decade and the century, Gregor, if he manages to pull that off. None of them are going in the top four. You're getting giddy. You're all getting giddy. Top seven. No, but I would dispute that. It's not giddy. Sunderland's a bit giddy, not Bournemouth. If you were to bottle all the things we have said collectively about, let's just stick to Bournemouth for the moment, about Bournemouth this season, then it's actually logical that they would finish in the top four No, because the same thing is true as last season in that they are so much of it is down to their sort of athleticism and the running that's needed for Andoni Arreola's style of play they'll get injuries they did last season it's great to watch and it's thrilling and it's so hard to play against and they'll go toe-to-toe with anyone in the league but over the course of the season I think it's very hard to sustain there we go Bournemouth fans boo Alison Rudd says Bournemouth fans Sunderland fans Crystal Palace fans get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk can you barge your way into the European places this season we'll leave it there Alison Rudd Gregor Robertson and Charlotte Dunker thank you very much for joining me thank you two for listening me and Gregor we'll be back very soon with an EFL extra show and we'll be back to talk Champions League on Thursday we'll see you then

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