Managerial magic at Old Trafford but misery for Frank and Glasner

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. A thrilling Manchester a derby as Carrick beats Guardiola. Protests and Penenka's in the AFCON final. One manager on the brink of the sack, another one basically asking to be sacked. And no one in the top four can win. Just another normal weekend in the world of football. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today for a jam-packed show we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and in the second half of the show we'll be joined by Ian Hawkey reporting from the Africa Cup of Nations.

0:36But first, joining us now we have the football reporter who covers clubs in Manchester for the Times. It's Paul Hurst. Hurst, good morning. Morning. You can definitely claim, I reckon, to being one of the busiest men in 2026, I think, surely. It's been a busy old start to the year, hasn't it? Yes, but yeah, it's been interesting, eventful, yeah. As proved by the fact that you're already not in Manchester right now. Well, that's it. I usually get crips about being the most northern person who works for the Times, but now I am definitely the most northernmost person because I am inside the Arctic Circle.

1:09Yeah, freezing on the behalf of the times. Alison, you're excited? Always nice to have Hurstie with us, isn't it? Oh, I love him. Yeah, we all love him, don't we? Always excited for my northern accent to come into the things. You won't be able to understand me in about 20 minutes time. Anyway, let's get right to it. As I say, Hurstie, you're referring to that busyness because your patch Manchester has been packed with news stories, changing managers, Manchester City making signings as well, and it all came together at Old Trafford in the lunchtime kick-off on Saturday. Manchester United with a brilliant win in this one, Hurst.

1:40Just sum up what it was like in the stadium. New manager, bit of DNA, all that nonsense. It's happy old times, isn't it, for 24 hours for Manchester United? Yeah, I'm sure I've heard this film before. We have heard this one before, yeah. How does it end? Does it end with the former United player getting a long-term contract and then hanking the club after a couple of years, maybe? I don't know. Yeah, no, it was a real sense of euphoria, I guess, particularly the second half when United pulled away. And I was thinking after, I've not really seen a more complete performance from United since probably the 2024 FA Cup final.

2:19It was really just full of exactly what the fans have been asking for, a lot of attacking intent, a lot of intensity, a lot of aggression. There's so much more aggression in every player who played on Saturday. and it was just a really almost perfect performance from United. They had hit the post twice as well, had three goals disallowed. So it was a really one-sided affair and I just couldn't believe it. I just thought after half-time City had come back into it, Nathan Aki was all over the place in the first half. He was really getting run ragged by Ahmad Diallo. But then when Pep brought on Nico O 'Reilly, I thought this all kind of balanced things out a little bit, but no, Ahmad was still absolutely brilliant.

3:08And yeah, they fully deserve their win on United. What do you think was it in particular? Was it a cocktail of a lot of things? Because you had Kobi Mainu in midfield who played brilliantly. Big man Harry Maguire, big game player at back at the back. Gregor Robertson still not convinced. Martinez as well alongside him. Those two playing together, dovetailing really well. I mean, you had Mbomo, Ahmad back as well. Michael Carrick's only had three days. How did this come about? Was it just those combinations of things or was it just they got up for a derby? What do you think it was? I think it's a combination of...

3:41You always have a sugar rush, don't you, when an interim manager comes in, even though he's not technically an interim by his title. But I think you also have players who really wanted to prove a point, particularly Cobby Main, who he's not been in the team at all recently. I think that was just his third start of the season. And it was just strange, really, because you had Casemiro and Mainu starting together for the first time this season and Maguire and Martinez starting together for the first time this season. You've got the two best attacking players coming back from the AFCON in Mbwemo and Ahmad.

4:16So, you know, they had a really strong attacking team and I do think one of the things that killed Amriem was losing Mbwemo and Diallo. I don't think it would have worked long-term. You know, he didn't want to be there, I don't think. and it was going downhill, but losing those two players was really a real blow for him. So having them back, it just added another dimension for United. So much more pace and so much more attacking intent. Like I said, the aggression really is something I've not seen from those players for a long time, whether that's because Carrick's instilled that in them or whether it's just because they wanted to remind everyone than they are actually decent players.

5:01I'm not sure. But like you say, he only has three days on the coaching pitches with them. So, you know, it's certainly a very good start for him. Paul, watching on telly, just to add a bit. Very good, very good. We're all getting a hang of it now.

5:19You've said the word aggression a few times that the fans have been waiting to see, but what came across, and I'm interested if you felt it in the stadium, was the players seemed happy. yeah do you feel it? it is yeah there's certainly there's one point I can't remember whether it was the first half I think it was the first half where Manu Antoine Semenyo came rushing into the ball to try and get the ball off Manu and he just spun past him and it was one of those oof you know really embarrassing moments for Semenyo and everyone just was like everyone shouted ole and you know it was really kind of and you could see Manu was sort of like smirking a little bit after thinking, yeah, I've done you there, mate.

6:02It was a real enjoyment of the game. And I do think with Amrim, he spent so much time on the touchline, Amrim literally coaching them as they went. And this went on throughout the whole 18 months of him standing on the touchline, pointing to players where they should be. It was almost like they were looking to him all the time for which position should I be in, should I be doing this, waiting for instructions as the game was going on but he wasn't lying that with Carrick he just let them play a bit more freely I think that's probably why they were enjoying it more there was a simplicity to it I mean that's not to underplay what they did but there was, there was nothing over complicated about the way they played, they were fast really purposeful you could see they were told attack as a team defend as a team everything as a team and do it quickly like it was almost like I don't know you write freedom almost fearlessness like you don't want to go overboard about this but it was really striking even when Hurstey says the 2024 FA Cup final if you go back beyond that I can't think of many games before then it's a long long time since you've seen United play that well and you know there were so many great performances like I think Dallow and Shaw like looked like they'd been freed up and we're happier playing these positions.

7:25We should just say on Dallow, red card for all of us, do we think? Not for me. No? I know a lot of people have been saying that it was. Well, a lot of people on the day seem to be thinking it and as you're following it online, a lot of the commentary teams and things, but not for you? No. Are you going to get an orange card? It was very close, yeah. But I'm happy for it not to be because I think it was like one of those you see in real time. Again, I just don't like VAR sending offs. It's a VAR red card. In real time, you saw that and he thought, but he's just a fraction late, and he's got a wee and it's a foul.

7:55Hirstie, just very quickly from you on that, and I'll come back to Gregor in a sec. Yeah, I thought he was one of those, when you slow it down, it looks a lot worse. Right. Obviously, watching it live, I didn't think... I thought it was a foul, but I didn't think it was a bad one. Maybe it was just because of the angle we were looking at, but certainly the more that you watched it by, the more it looked bad. But I think yellow card's fair enough. Most people labelled it live. they labelled it reckless and reckless is the yellow card well there we go I thought honestly thought we'd get some red cards in the studio anyway Gregor you were saying about Dallow's performances and Luke Shaw and that back four that Erste's mentioned Dallow actually I'm not sure he played that well but like he was really up and down and there was like again a simplicity and a sort of they felt like they were in their natural habitat again yeah and then you know I've not been Bruno Fernandes' biggest fan but he was outstanding like absolutely outstanding and that switch he played for Dorgo in the first half when the ball was like under his feet was ridiculous for the chance at the back post.

8:55The way he drove forward for the assist, that was like a classic Man United goal as well. Let's not get too much into the DNA chat, but it was, it was like, you know, that could easily have been Ronaldo and Rooney and Tevez and although they're not players of that stature, just hearing forward at a pace, four of them. That was great. So he was outstanding and playing in Buemba through the middle was a masterstroke. Like, Sesco's just got... Yeah, we've just been saying how good it is. There's some signs of life, scoring goals. But I read somewhere as well that Mbemus made the most runs in behind a defence per 90 of any player in the Premier League this season.

9:30Suddenly you think, oh, that's a natural fit. And that's what he did. He threatened in behind all the time. And that stretched the play. Sometimes he dropped off in length well with Bruno. That just was a masterstroke. So, yeah. But the biggest thing for me was simplicity. And it just felt natural. I felt like everyone everyone was just had a weight lifted off them there was no pressure of like of you know adhering to this system and to making life complicated football can be a simple game it's not always but it can be and that makes that's where you get the freedom from yeah Hirstie I'll come to you on some of those points Gregor made in just a sec but Gregor so much was made about Ruben Amarin's defensive system and the back three you mentioned it there is that back four sustainable for the rest of the season then Luke Shaw left back Sandro Martinez left of a back you know with the Maguire next to him nice kind of chalk and cheese ying and yang I thought the old school yeah if they stay fit I mean obviously Maguire only trained for a few days I think in the last eight weeks or something I read doesn't need much he's a big game player Gregor Martinez Martinez just come back from long term injury sure the one good thing about him playing left of a back three was he didn't have to exert himself quite as much and he's got like calves that are made of glass so you know if they can stay fit great but there's a big question mark about all these players staying fit yeah Hurstie then in terms of that sustainability for the team as a whole you know Gregor picked out a lot of points there about the stylistically quite simple we did as you mentioned earlier we've had this before you know a lot of what Ole Gunnar Solskjaer did quite well was simplicity and enthusiasm and energy playing on the counter attack at times and of course you know it was well set up for them playing against a poor Manchester City team in this case you know they've got 16 games now you were writing in the Times at the weekend about a potential Champions League bonus for Michael Carrick if he can get that qualification is this sustainable for the rest of the season then is this performance and this system and this style sustainable for Michael Carrick?

11:20I think so. Just coming back to Dallow, I mean, there are times where you look at Dallow and you think, God, how are you here? How have you been here? He'll do a testimonial, I think, next year or something like that. There was one moment in the first half where he was running with the ball and all he had to do was pass it 10 yards in front of him to Ahmad. He was straight in front of him. He pinned it out of play. and I just, I had my head in my hands at that point. I was thinking, come on, you know, it's just almost like his head is working, he just can't really compute what's going on in the game because he's going too fast.

11:54He beats his chest and, you know, just kind of like, just chill out, mate, you know, just play the game. You know, he's a bit like Joe Hart towards the end when he was, you know, like just going, everything's going too fast in his brain. Yeah. So I think I would bring Masraoui in at right back in certain games, I think. I think he's a really good all-round player. but the fact that he has a winger to play with and like he's not the only he's not the player you're depending on for width a lot of the time it makes I know I agree he didn't play great but he was making a lot of kind of purposeful runs and like again it looked more natural for him even if he wasn't great on the ball so whoever's playing there I reckon will be freed up as well just by the fact that they're not having to be the guy who's offering all the width up and down and defending and like you know having to listen to Amorim in your ear and it's helped and I've had I've had tracks back as well you know so he will fill in that hole I bet generally then as well the rest of the team my new favourite player Patrick Dorgug delivering again in a big game we've been talking a lot about him when me and you have been chatting during the week I mean but you know Mbumo back through the middle are you kind of Manchester United fans listening to this should be cautious do you think in their optimism well I did again what Grayson about playing him through the middle it was a bit of a masterstroke that really because it wasn't just...

13:14There were times where it reminded me of when Solskjaer used to play split strikers up front. He did it in one of his first games in charge when he played Spurs, and that was actually the game that got Oli the job. I can't remember who he played up front that day. It might have been Lingard and Swanelles, maybe Martial as a split pair. But Fernandes and Mbwemo were just... They were both on the same kind of level at quite long stages of the match. And it's really clever. and I just, it does bode well for Carrick that he's come up with that plan and I know it was a very soft kind of centre-half pairing that City had, but that's to be exploited, isn't it?

13:55So if you've done that as a manager, you've done well. You're kind of hitting City at their weak spot and Rodri, his head was spinning, I think, for most of that game on Saturday. He certainly didn't look like the player he was a couple of years ago. So, yeah, it does bode well for him. They've just got to build on it now and it can't be just a flash in the pan. We've had this before in this season where they've played all right one game and then they've dipped. They need to go three, four, five, six matches unbeaten to cement their place up there. But it is gettable because the league is so open, isn't it?

14:41And, you know, I'd be poor, I'd say, in terms of quality. I was top two. It's there to be had that fifth place or fourth place even, isn't it? Yeah. But the other thing is, ever since Amarim came in, anyone who watches Man United regularly or is involved with Man United or has an interest in Man United or a passion for Man United has been able to think about how they would change the formation. It's been like a long, long advert on how not to set up Manchester United. So it was almost beautifully set up, I think, for Carrick to come in and make those changes. Because even without knowing he was going to come in, he would have been playing that game in his head.

15:27How would I set up Man United? I know what I'd do. I'd do this, this and this. I'd get rid of the bloody three at the back. And then, and it's like, I don't know, it feels like there's a narrative there with having a week between matches now to really build something so that they do get the top four. Yeah. Well, I was watching them after the match. They did like a little training session with Steve Holland and a few other players and they were really pushing them then. It was really intense. And the players that had come off the bench for like two or three minutes, so they're not really done much.

16:04Anyway, but it was like, you know, they are trying to squeeze everything out of them that they can in the time that they've got with them, which bodes well. But coming back to your point on how they lined up, United underhand me, I always thought, like, if you're an opposition manager, you've got the easiest job in working out how they're going to play, aren't you? Because, you know, he was famously so stubborn that he wouldn't change. and I remember that one, the one game where he did change it, it was Newcastle wasn't it, at home, and I remember the analyst, because we sit next to the analyst in the press box, and they were stunned.

16:42You know, they were radioing to the bench saying, oh, he's playing four at the back, and they were like, oh, what do we do now, kind of thing. And I'm just sat there thinking, why has he not done that so far this season? You know, they have spent all week preparing to play against a team that plays three at the back. and he changed it to a four but then we went back to Wolves and it was three at the back again against a team that couldn't get a point at that point It was self-centred It was remarkably self-centred We shouldn't probably linger on this too long No we shouldn't Man United have won the darlin' We're booting Reuben Hammering again You look at a group of players and you're fitting them into a system that suits your beliefs or desires far more than you're suiting the players and you just saw the counterpoint to that immediately and there was more at play it was a derby, you're playing against Man City who clearly want to come out come out and play against you Man United's big test now will be obviously they've got Arsenal next, that's another game that's going to be a different sort of fairly unique challenge, but after that they're going to have to break down low blocks you're going to have to play against teams that are a bit more obdurate and like they've given it to the main protagonist and that's the challenge that United have had for quite some time and they'll still have again Definitely but a positive start for Michael Carrick Kirsty just before I let you go just a quick word on City a strange run of results really three draws and then this defeat in the derby pretty poor in this game you have to say as much as we're quite rightly praising Manchester United Erling Haaland's been out of the goals they've spent a lot of money in the last year and look like they're about to sign Mark Guay as well as we were reporting on Friday but as you say that defence looked pretty porous Rodri doesn't look the player he was as I've just mentioned Haaland where do you see their season going with the kind of lingering doubts about Pep Guardiola's future as well?

18:37It's a key month they've got coming up I think they've really got they'll get Gatian obviously and then Semenyo's got to bed in as well he's started off fantastically but yeah that defence at the moment is really is really kind of raw and I thought normally you'd have John Stone to come back in but he's not even fit now so they've got a huge injury list and Phil Foden broke his hand on Saturday as well so that added him to that list they've got a bigger squad this year than they usually have so that'll help them but they do need to that lack of a settled back four has really shocked them really because they had Pep had Nunes and O 'Reilly at full back and then he got Diaz and Guardiol at centre half and that worked fine I think he played more or less the same back four for seven, eight matches which is unheard of for Pep but I just think having that not having that sell back four has really knocked them out of their stride so Gehi really needs to hit the ground running because they need him because otherwise it's you're back to Kusunov and Max Alain and Nathan Ake who's been held together by a sellotape at the moment so it's they need to stop laying those goals in over the next month if they're going to stay in the title race and push on in the Cups as well.

20:07Yeah absolutely City hoping to bounce back in the Champions League against Bodo Glimt this week Herstie will be reporting from that match on the Times website. Herstie we'll let you go thank you very much for joining us to dissect the Manchester Derby we'll speak to you very soon thank you cheers guys Hirstie mentioned it there in briefly in one of his answers to the questions that he thinks that this is a kind of slightly poor league and that's where I wanted to move on to from Manchester City because like City Arsenal and Liverpool also dropping points in the top four Villa losing against Everton obviously great performances from Everton and Burnley and Nottingham Forest in these games but I mean are we this is the big debate we're having all season isn't it about is this a really good league season with strength all the way down through all 20 teams or is it a reflection that maybe at the top teams aren't as good as they used to be?

20:49Which side of the fence do you think you're on? Gregor, you were at Villa Park to watch Villa lose a game against Everton that perhaps a couple of weeks ago we wouldn't have expected Yeah I mean when Everton you look at the league table after the result and you go, Everton are three points behind Man United? Yeah What? How is that possible? It's a bit of a mind-bending league I'll say that if you're looking for definitive conclusions about the strength of it, I think the top is weaker and actually personally I think the middle rump are stronger. So I think it's a bit of both. But do you think that makes it a better league overall?

21:26Because I enjoy it more. It's more unpredictable. As a neutral and as a sports editor, it's much better. It's more exciting. It's more interesting. You never know what's going to happen. As I referenced in my intro there, it's just another mad weekend. It's amazing. Things are changing all the time and as you said you've got Liverpool in fourth on 36 points and you've got Fulham in 11th on 31 points all those teams in the middle there all up for grabs for Europe they'll all be thinking it January window can we make a signing can we get Europa League who knows Alison where do you come down on these two kind of arguments I think well it's more enjoyable and I'm well up for a team upsetting the odds and doing better against a big club than they might have done in previous seasons but I just think the so-called big clubs, the ones that you would expect to finish in the top six, just look, they just have these dips of exhaustion.

22:18They're playing on different fronts. They've got Europe or cup competitions and because it's the lower half of the table clubs are better and I would argue better coached than they have been in previous seasons, that that is more week on week that's more exhausting because you haven't got any givens you haven't got any games that you can oh you know rotate quite easily rest players after 60 minutes because you've got this in the bag you know an astute coach of a big club knows that the so-called smaller club will pull something out the hat so they're having to I see this with Arsenal a lot who I think are it was a good weekend in the end because they pulled a point clear.

23:06But they don't look like they're coasting. It's like every game is exhausting mentally, tactically, physically and working out who Arteta will bring on and bring off. He's clearly quite obsessed with making sure this team doesn't lose the title because he overstretches players. But is that not also about what the other teams are demanding of you, which is again, quite a compliment, isn't it? Yeah, that's my point, because they can't. The Forest are demanding so much. Yeah, you cannot. In the past, we have sat here and said, oh, it's not, you know, I mean, I have said it before. I've said Man City have won titles because when they go into matches, teams just give them the points because they're not prepared to give it everything in a game they know they're not going to win.

23:56There isn't that mindset now. Coaches think we can get points off anybody. it doesn't matter if they're leading the league or in second or third or fourth and that has the ripple effect of making it much more difficult to rotate and plan and not look exhausted and all the teams you would have banked winning this weekend look tired You should say that the evening game Forest, Arsenal, Wolves, Newcastle Everton Villa there was one goal in those three games so although we're saying it's a more unpredictable league which in itself provides entertainment and you know I think value don't need golf to have a party Gregor come on but you know Hamza and several other people are pointing out that the sort of stylistic shift is not necessarily making for a more entertaining spectacle yeah I think both things can be true that's true that's a good phrase that just very quickly on Villa is this the slight dip that we maybe saw coming as I was getting very excited about them over Christmas or is this just as Alison said tiredness multiple competitions well yeah The thing about Villa is that they had no Boubacar, Kamara, no Onana, Ross Barkley who could be someone who would step in and is also injured and in the 18th minute John McGinn hobbled off with a knee injury they're really, really threadbare in midfield in particular and so often Rodgers has been the source of inspiration and just on his 100th appearance for the club he had like five or six chances, blazed a couple over the bar one was blocked by O 'Brien it just wasn't his day so like when that source of inspiration isn't there what that was was the epitome of them over overdoing their XG because all those shots were a little bit ambitious and previously they've gone in and they shouldn't really so that's what it was it was a good example one over the bar as well it was going in the top corner this was vintage David Moyes though wasn't it Everton win when they've been under the cosh of late red cards and some bad performances it certainly was and we should say that they were very stretched as well, the number of like Dewsbury Halls out, Brantwight still out they still had Ndi and Gay on AFCON Michael Keane was suspended they had Harrison Armstrong who's 18, in fact he's 19 today in midfield really really good, Roel as well who's like not really done much since he signed from I think it was Freiburg in the summer, decent nearly scored after like 11 seconds and James Garner again was outstanding so he like David Moyes was full of praise for his team he said like this is not to discredit the players that we had out on the pitch but we came here and knew it was going to be a big challenge Villa had won 11 games in a row at home so the first time the first team to to knock them off their perch in that regard for Villa it will be a huge it felt like a huge missed opportunity they could have moved within four points of Arsenal just ramped up that pressure a bit and instead they've got Fernabachi in Turkey on Thursday and then Newcastle St James' Park on a Sunday, three days later, with all these injuries, suddenly it's looking tougher.

27:04Big, big pressure for Aston Villa. There was a good win for Chelsea against Brentford. They're just two points behind Liverpool in six. Newcastle, as you mentioned there, Greg, a drawing at Wolves. Probably a missed opportunity for them. A point behind Newcastle, our joint on 33. And then we've got Sunderland. We have to quickly just mention Sunderland. Another win, 2-1 at home to Crystal Palace. They're ninth in the table. We're going to talk about Glasner and Crystal Palace in part two and some managers and things. Gregor, it's about time we start touting Regis Le Briss for all these big jobs No, because it would be horribly unfair for Sunderland Sorry Sunderland fans, we've got to do it, haven't we?

27:37All the other trendy managers are talking the nice hells out of the job We hate them all now I also think We're going to talk about Glasner I think Le Briss is almost the sort of antithesis of Glasner He's so understated and calm and measured He's always talking about the connection between the players and the crowd I don't think he's someone who will immediately leap out To managerial headhunters I think his body of work Should he be? His body of work over time It's an amazing achievement 18 months Championship promotion And now they've got Sunderland in 9th And before anyone starts talking about spending money and stuff They've only spent a little bit more than Ipswich spent last season And they went straight back down Yeah Clearly that was a bigger club success Club wide success But his success on the pitch Which has also been about his sort of pragmatism.

28:28The way that they evolved over the course of last season. And then have done again this season since they've been promoted. They're just, every time I've watched them, I watched them at Spurs the other week as well. They're so, and they were rubbish in the first half. But in the second half, they flicked a switch. They've got so many, they've got different faces. They can be so like dogged and, you know, pretty kind of low block and really hard to play against. Or they can press really high. They can turn the ball over really quickly and create loads of chances. or when they have to, they start to knock the ball around and get people like Lefeu on the ball in dangerous positions.

29:00And yeah, that's a big success, a big kind of praise of his coaching. Stay where you are, Reggie. He's under the radar a little, I think, because he's so without ego, publicly at least. And so I think on a crazy, crazy weekend where some amazing things were said, one of the quotes that stood out to me was him saying the football isn't that fantastic but the connection with the crowd is there so he's in that one statement he's saying I'm not a football genius I don't have the most amazing players we don't always play beautiful football but who gives a who gives a stuff when you've got that sort of the crowd behave as if you're playing like you know PSG or Barcelona maybe a bit of Northern Bias as well he just supports you know he manages Sunderland they're a bit far away aren't they in the Northbrook also in the media to start talking about them but yeah no are you sure?

29:54yes well why has he been linked with a job then? well like I say Tom he's just in fact he'd barely had any work as a senior head coach on his CV before the Sunderland job so it would be a hell of a leap but as I said Liam Rossini's got the Chelsea job well we can talk about that as I said he like if he continues in this vein then yeah I'm sure it won't be long but I think I think a bit more time and a full season in the Premier League would help I'd also just say as well Sunderland fans are about to email me at tom.clark at the times.com I'm not trying to get rid of him I'm not trying to get rid of him I just think he deserves a little bit more credit than he's getting as you mentioned there Gregor they always managed to flick a switch Sunderland have won their most points from losing positions in a single Premier League season this term 16 it's the most by a newly promoted side in the top flight since West Brom in 2010-11 there's another fact for you that I'm going to use as the quiz question at the break with loads more still to come in part 2 but first I want to know Nordi Mukherjee's assist for Enzo Le Fay's equaliser in the match on Saturday is the first time that two Frenchmen have combined for a Premier League goal for Sunderland since 2008 against Hull who were those players that combined back in 2008?

31:01I'll give you a point for either find out if they can get the answer after the break

31:17Hello and welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. A very difficult quiz question, I must say. Alison Rudd openly said, I'm not even going to try. Before Gregor Robertson sat staring at the ceiling for five minutes and couldn't get the answer, which was Steed Malbronk assisting Jibril Cissé for Sunderland against Hull in December 2008. Greg is really sad about that. Look at him. He's really good. He loves the quiz. Anyway, loads and loads to talk about in part two. The uncertain futures of Thomas Frank and Oliver Glasner, which we will come to, but there is only one story leading the sports section of the Times website on Monday morning.

31:56Senegal beating Morocco in the final of the Africa Cup of Nations. This is the intro to the Match Report on the Times website now. The Africa Cup of Nations is Senegal's, champions for the second time in three attempts and this time thanks to a triumph over a host nation for whom they had developed an undisguised mistrust. Senegal's win is a handsome distinction but there was an ugliness to the denouement. A final that will be remembered for the fact that its victors had been minded to abandon the event entirely to walk away in protest at a penalty awarded to Morocco in the eighth minute of stoppage time.

32:27The penalty, delayed by the chaos of the threatened boycott, was poorly struck by Brahim Diaz and easily saved. That meant the context extended immediately into extra time, where Senegal took the lead through a superb Pape Gueye strike and, relieved that their walkout had been reversed, kept their advantage. Those words were written by Ian Hawkey and he joins us from Rabat now. Ian, hello. Yes, putting them under some stress, I would say, without a doubt, I feel sorry for me. Well, I was going to say, yeah, you talked about, you know, an ugliness there in your report. let's start with the penalty and the walkout this is not what we want to see as much as we talk on this podcast and in the Times pages all the time about poor refereeing decisions and get rid of VAR we do not want to see teams walking off the pitch in any game but particularly in a final.

33:11No we don't I mean we get cocked about it when school children do it so yeah we really don't they were very angry they were prepared to be angry before the final. The refereeing the one let down really an otherwise very very good tournament very well over the tournament the refereeing had been four it's been a different it's been very easy to be persuaded that Morocco have been beneficiary with it sometime John then on the penalty as well Brahim Diaz you've written about him on the Times website plenty of times a remarkable story with his connection with Morocco deciding to play for Morocco he was the top scorer in this tournament steps up to take a penalty and chooses to go for a Penenka which is easily caught with no Senegal players seeming to react which then sparks conspiracy theories online about how he deliberately missed it.

34:04It was another crazy moment from a player who's had a remarkable tournament and is a remarkable talent but now might well be the guy who's forever remembered as the bloke who Penenka'd a penalty and missed in a final. Yes, yes. He's going to have to do something pretty dramatic to, you know, to remove that from the top of his resume, unfortunately. Yes, I mean, we're familiar with the American theory that I think would need to be the pain of command that led the top-froaring of the tournament. He wasn't going to score another goal. And also, he had an awful lot of fun to think about that penalty, which would be very, very difficult by him.

34:45You know, he's a bum-trip footballer. But, you know, it's very easy to believe that he's got a pen and ankle would be the perfect flurry. And the pressure was enormous. Yeah, a remarkable moment. Just finally, Ian, before we let you go, thank you for joining us. The connection's not the best, so listeners' apologies, but we're delighted to have Ian with us. Regardless, just a quick word on Senegal. And you mentioned the kind of wise heads, referring presumably to Sadio Mane, who was one of the few players who said, guys, what are we doing? Stay on the pitch. You mentioned they're referring to them as probably the deserved winners of the tournament.

35:23Are we able to step away from this chaos and give them that crown? The extraordinary thing about Senegal is that I watched them through the knockout play. And what is very striking about the way they play, the way they organize, is their composure. Now, I think we do need to add that the 20 minutes left, right? That was absolutely not what Senegal were. But for the rest of the time, they've been remarkably dark to death Stadion Mane really does ride in that sense but they're a very very young team apart from him and and Mendy and Go and they've been very very in their corner with one massive exception Yes absolutely deserved winners overall Ian you'll be writing again on this crazy final which listeners can read on the Times website by the time you're listening to this podcast but thank you very much for joining us.

36:16Ian Hawkey there reporting from the Africa Cup of Nations. Well then, what do we make of that? Ian Hawkey there. Listeners, I do apologise for Ian's connection there but always better to try these things and hear from the men on the ground. Alison, kind of covered lots of different parts of this crazy final. Your reaction to some of the things that went on? I'm surprised there isn't more of a furore over the fact that Senegal, are they actually legitimately the champions? by walking off the pitch, which you're not supposed to do unless it's something like safety or racism or something. They've gone off in a huff for quite a long time.

36:54And you can very easily make the case that that, you know, amazing reaction, astonishing reaction affected the outcome. That's why the penalty was so poor, because if you have half a week to think about a penalty, you are going to miss your penalty. This is why we've got players now who go off without the ball and are protected by their teammates who pretend someone else is going to take it because of the pressure of a 30-second or one-minute delay. So I just don't think... This is a really bad precedent that you can go off and make the player who matters completely lose their cool. And in that moment, Morocco were going to win and they did not win.

37:37It was almost engineered. I love Sadio Mane. I agree with Ian that Senegal play great football their winning goal was beautiful but I just don't see how it's actually legitimate given what they did I don't think really there's any sense to be made of that final whatsoever I mean when you see the video of the reserve goalkeeper for Senegal trying to supply Mendy with a towel during the game to like wipe his gloves and being basically like wrestled to the ground by the ball boys inside the stadium and stuff it was just a wild wild night from start to finish and like yeah I don't think there's any sense to me it was incredible drama though but if you think football is a role model if you think football offers a role model way down the pyramid I can see some sort of school team all walking off because the referee disallows a goal what do you think the solution is then do you think they're penalised again should Morocco have just played on should have just taken the penalty and just rolled it down the middle, there's no Senegal...

38:42I think they should have, and then they should have just said... They go 1-0 up and then just play on. There's not much you can do. I mean, you can't do that. I mean, the thing... But this is the point, isn't it? If Brahim Diaz scores the penalty and Morocco win, then we're talking about the incident and the decision, the penalty, the officials. Senegal, by going off and then winning, have made it all about them, but in a negative way. Whilst, as Ian pointed out, they're having watched them all the tournament. they've been an excellent team in large parts so what so oh right so you're saying FA Cup final last summer I'm not saying that at all Manchester City should have won because over the whole season they were slightly better than Crystal Palace not at all I'm saying that they've ruined it for themselves and in you can hear it in some of the quotes afterwards you know Gay saying we felt like there was an injustice there had already been a foul called against us and the referee chose not look at VAR we were frustrated but Sadio told us to come back on the pitch to remobilise us we took the decision to come back on the pitch and give everything and we did and please can you stop talking about it now because we went on and won and scored a great goal.

39:39So that's my point I'm making, is that they've got this difficulty, but what is the solution? What is the... No, but some people will say, oh, you know, this is the natural repercussion of VAR. And it gives, if you think there's dark forces at work, then it gives referees an excuse to give a decision that maybe, you know, they shouldn't be giving. But if you look at the two decisions that annoyed Senegal, yeah, they were unlucky, but I've seen worse in the Premier League. It wasn't like obviously a biased decision. Are people now going to think, oh, well, you know, if we disagree with the VAR decision, we can do whatever we want because we're not going to have the points taken off us or the cup taken off us.

40:26I should just say as well, Africa's football governing bodies said it would take appropriate action against those found guilty. The Senegal coach, Pape Thor, admitted he'd made a mistake in telling his players to walk off saying after thinking about it I realised I shouldn't have asked them to go off I apologise for that sometimes you can react in the heat of the moment before that we scored a goal that was not given but now we must accept that the referees do make mistakes and we apologise so I mean again heat of the moment is swearing or kicking a water bottle or there's nothing to do towards the referee I don't know why I'm looking for a solution to a problem that really like as I don't know the much you can do about it you can't restart the game without one of the teams on the pitch and there was also like probably safety to consider I mean there was violence in the stands it was wild, I don't think there's any sense to be made of it, I think clearly you don't want any precedent to be set, you can't just walk off if you're in a huff, as Alison said but in a cup final it's doubly hard to try and find a solution as you say for that, if you're in a league game maybe you can punish them retrospectively, you can't do it in this but maybe there needs to be some kind of punishment what does it matter now, they've got the trophy I know, but they need to make sure that this doesn't happen again.

41:33Maybe. Don't they? Anyway, interesting. Well, if you keep the trophy, it will happen again. Very interesting. I think we'll keep the trophy. Listeners, get in touch with me. See what you think about players walking off the pitch in a crazy Africa Cup, a Nations final. We need to keep talking about things in the Premier League, though. Two managers to talk about now. We mentioned Sunderland's win against Crystal Palace. That was slightly overshadowed by some remarkable comments by Oliver Glasner after that game, saying you know we think he'll see out this season but the board have considered sacking the Austrian after saying he felt completely abandoned over transfer strategy and comments also on Friday saying that he would definitely leave the club this season that obviously coming on the same day that it was basically confirmed that Mark Gay would be leaving to join Manchester City in the January transfer window it's been a bad all week to be a Crystal Palace fan as well after that Macclesfield defeat Alison as well you were at Tottenham to watch Thomas Frank lose again 2-1 at home to West Ham a brilliant win for Nuno Espirito Santo and for Callum Wilson, top scorer, bizarrely linked with the move away.

42:32Honestly, West Ham, God love them. But Alison, these two managers, two very close managers close to your heart, I would say. So where do we think we're at with both of them? Let's start with Thomas Frank. Much discussed on the show this season. Tottenham are in 14th. They've got Dortmund on Tuesday in the Champions League. Burnley away on Saturday. Even you now must, as the Thomas Frank defender, see that he is close to the exit. What do you think? Yeah, I mean, the chief executive and various board members were in the stadium and I don't see how they can ignore what happened in that stadium. It was absolutely ridiculous.

43:10Absolutely ridiculous. What was ridiculous? I almost can't go there now. It's an awful, awful place to be. Why? When you've got West Ham fans and people connected to West Ham who themselves have tumbleweed moments and booing at their own stadium, which is not a very nice stadium compared to the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium, which is a very beautiful thing. And they managed to make this state-of-the-art stadium become a millstone round the neck of the team. you've got the board members are next to the south stand that was built on the lines of the wall at Dortmund and it was supposed to make that stadium really difficult for players opposition players to come create a wall of sound the second anything happens on the pitch that isn't quite to the liking of the Spurs fans they start booing and by the end as if they don't notice by doing that the players start becoming a bit hesitant a bit wobbly.

44:13And by the end, they're booing the team, they're booing individual players, and they're singing that their own manager is getting sacked in the morning. But this is not a one-off, though. It's cumulative, though. They're 14th. They're 14th in the table after changing manager. They've drawn two, lost two in their last four games. But how on earth do they think they're going to come out of this slump? There was lots that you could, if you wanted to be a supporter, in inverted commas, that you could cheer. It wasn't abject rubbish that Spurs were producing. But if Liverpool were 14th, would you be expecting Anfield to be cheering them?

44:46Like, this has not been a good season for Thomas Backen. No, there is a contract between being a supporter. The minute you go behind or something goes wrong, that's the moment you give a roar of support and try and get your team over the line. It's self-fulfilling prophecy. They will lose if they feel like you think they're going to lose. If you know the people who are meant to support you, think you're going to lose, you will lose. So you don't think Thomas Frank is setting the team up poorly this season? I think it's a very poor team. Yeah, West Ham arrived and they had the best fun they've had all season.

45:24Because they're in the doldrums and they come to a stadium, which is really lovely. Their away support isn't of the booing kind. So they're getting backing from their own fans. it's a really nice place to play football and they're enjoying the fact that the home team are nervous and negative and it's all going wrong for them it's an invitation for anybody even a club in the bottom three to have fun. I'm not denying that a toxic atmosphere is going to play a part but if the fans not got a right when they pay a lot of money to be like this is not good enough for Tottenham, this is not good enough for Tottenham what they're seeing, they're seeing a lack of creativity lack of goals, you know at home they've been so poor at home There were spasms of creativity.

46:07You need more than that, though. Don't you against West Ham? You need more than that against West Ham at home. But I've seen when those spasms of creativity are cheered, you get more of them. When they're not, you get nothing. But that's... Gregor? Like, fundamentally, I wholeheartedly agree with Alison about, like, being a self-defeating thing to boo your own team at any point. But that's because they want the manager to change. But it's naive. It's also really naive in the world of modern football. to think that way that's what happens now people want Spurs have felt like the aims and goals of the board and the board of directors and Daniel Levy in the past have not been aligned with the supporters for a long long time and I think the purpose of the football club should be to try and win trophies in silverware and they feel it's been about kind of continual growth building this shiny new stadium and football's a bit secondary.

47:10And I don't know if that's entirely true. There were moves made by appointing serial winning managers to try and arrest that. That was misguided. So ultimately, there's been a lot of bad decisions made at the club and now they're reaping the rewards of that. In terms of this home, and this takes it slightly away from Thomas Frank, but just for the fans in general, going to that stadium that you talk about, Alison, that beautiful stadium, Spurs have lost 50 games in all competitions. at this new stadium, where this was their first against West Ham, they've played 167 games, 166, 76, sorry, games, 50 of them defeats.

47:44In the last 50 defeats at White Hart Lane, took 295 games. So these are fans playing an awful lot of money to go and watch. And yes, it's a beautiful stadium, and yeah, the food's amazing, but the football they're seeing is crap for a lot of it. So I don't know how... It's not crap! But they're losing to West Ham. No, but you can't deny, Alison, that it's been, you know, there was a stat about how many games they won in the calendar. year as well, it's atrocious their record at home is awful and that's going to create some issues that's going to create some toxicity so all the things I just spoke about there, you throw in the home form on top of that, then yeah you're going to get some real unrest I still say it's counterproductive to buoy your own team and making the life harder for the players and for the manager You actually ended up feeling that they wanted them to lose because they want Frank out I don't think they've bought into Frank even from the word go I think they felt, hmm, guy from Brentford, what did he do before Brentford?

48:37Nothing at all. We don't really want him. And isn't he a bit pragmatic? He wants something a bit more exciting. And even though he started well enough, there was a PSG Super Cup game. That went OK. Losing on penalties, anyone can do that. Played quite well in that game. The defeat of Man City at the Etihad, that was good. But even then, there was a sense of a sort of, oh well a bit of it's sulky well we'll let him have those but we want them to be a bit more exciting next time it's it's it you really do get the sense that they just it doesn't matter what happens on the pitch they've had they don't they just they just want something more glamorous as a package but is that not a long-term view to come back to their stadium then they want glamour because they are Tottenham and they won the Europa League and they're in the Champions League and they've got an amazing stadium but they're not allowed to demand that glamour just talks about Manchester United and DNA and things and getting rid of annoying Ruben Amorim who never fitted the system and things and we've got Carrick back and we're bombing forward and you're telling me Mbumo and Bruno Fernandes suddenly look like Tevez are in Alba Yeah but that was a relationship that was partly because the Old Trafford crowd were as loud as you've heard them in months and months and months They talked a lot about feeding off the energy They were fantastic and yeah exactly the team acknowledged that It is a factor But it's a two way street though As I said Regis Le Brie says these amazing results at Sunderland are a lot of the time because the fans are prepared to forgive sloggy football underwhelming football for 70 minutes and make sure that they keep powering them through to the end you don't get anything remotely like that at Spurs there is a conversation to be had about how like what Spurs expectations should be from the fans like you're saying that they should be able to demand it what in their history says that determines that they should be able to demand anything like do Aston Villa demand it is Aston Villa have more successful history than one European Cup.

50:31You've said modern football. It's 2026. Football fans demand everything. We know this. And if you're going to be an elite club, you demand absolutely everything from your club. And if you spend hundreds of thousands of pounds on a season ticket, surely you can demand a bit of attacking football at home when you've lost 50 games in 176. It's not as simple as that. Nothing's as simple as that, but surely you can ask for it. There are a lot of problems at Tottenham. I feel like we're zoning in on the fans being the problem when the squad's pretty poor the players seem completely demotivated and the manager looks lost like I like Thomas Frank he was brilliant at Brentford he seems like a lovely bloke he looks completely lost he looks ill as we said on a recent show I don't think booing supporters are the biggest problem at Tottenham they definitely don't help the atmosphere is bad they're not the major problem surely no no they're not they're not but they're part of the problem now because how the club takes a forward step while the atmosphere is like that at home is really very hard to see.

51:29And it's very hard to see how Thomas Frank escapes this now, really. Yeah, well, we'll see what the week holds for Thomas Frank. Tom will not be reporting on the latest from Tottenham on the Times website. Let's finish talking about Oliver Glasner. I mean, this is one of the most remarkable turnarounds in a managerial narrative and status ever, isn't it? Tony Cascarino has a pop after you lose to Macclesfield and a week later, you're on your way out. Unbelievable. I can't believe it. Alison, your reaction to Oliver Glasner and some of his comments, because, I mean, Speaking personally, as a neutral, we've talked so much.

51:58We love Oliver Glasner. We love all these managers. Andoni Arayola's another one. I'd start to think he's a bit of a Muppet. I don't know why. I don't know why. A lot of people agree with you. But if I was a Crystal Palace fan, I wouldn't think he was a Muppet. No, he gave them the greatest moment in their history. Fantastic. Absolutely. And some great football as well. They have at times, not lately, but they have been very entertaining to watch, which is the other thing that Spurs want. They want entertainment. and Glasner's giving that to, you know, it's not just football by numbers he's given and getting the odd good result.

52:32They can be entertaining. I don't think he's being a Muppet at all. I just think it's like, if you're... Sorry, just to say, that's my very basic... You mean his comments both come out in a Friday press conference and say, oh, actually, it's January, but I am definitely leaving, by the way, at the end of the season, at the very least. And then after a defeat to Sundance, say, I feel completely abandoned. You think that's fair game? Yes, and in the circumstances I do. It's like if Gregor had his daughter on his lap reading her a fairy story and instead of the upbeat ending in the fairy tale, it was everyone died at the end.

53:08You'd be really angry with the publishers of that book, wouldn't you? And it feels like that for Oliver Glasner. He pulls off one of the results in the history of English football by winning the FA Cup in style against the best team in the country. And his reward is having everything, you know, the rug pulled from under him. And, you know, it's like a slow death for him as well because Eze goes and then he doesn't get the players any once and then to be told just 15 minutes before he starts training for the Sunderland game. He's told that Mark Gay is going to go for a relative pittance. I think this is a...

53:5120 million for six months I think it's a prime example of a case when both things can be true because he he's entitled to feel all that but he also needs to and I think if maybe in the future if he steps back and takes a look at the bigger picture and Palace's place in the food chain, the idea that you can prevent Eze going to Arsenal, the idea that you can prevent Gay going to Liverpool which he did, he actually prevented Gay going to Liverpool, they went alright we won't sell him, the idea you can prevent that again now is ludicrous and like the one thing there's also like you know profit and sustainability regulations to come at this or whatever the European equivalent are called now that they're playing European football they've got to get under 70 % wage to wage to termination.

54:35Which by the way they're still in the conference league which why not you know tough it out and keep your reputation my point as to why I think he's a Muppet is he's ruined his reputation and he's standing in terms of being admired. Surely they're going to be big clubs looking at him going I'm not sure I fancy this actually. In this world of where Enzo Mureska makes one tiny little comment in a press conference and gets booted out of Chelsea. Oliver Glasner comes out firing shots at anyone who'll listen because they've lost a few games, which, by the way, Oliver, lost four and drawn two of the last six.

55:02Isn't that your job as well? I mean, like, he's tarnished himself, hasn't he, as much as he's brilliant. Stay, get them to the semi-finals of the Conference League, amazing nights in Europe, 12th again, who gives a stoff. Yeah, Europe, a Europe that he doesn't want. This is not what he won. He won a place in the Europa League and it got taken away from him. It's like he must feel absolutely dreadful. It's another question, whether anyone should tell the truth of how they're feeling in public. Well, maybe we shouldn't. But I have huge sympathy for him thinking week after week it's going wrong and there's nothing he's done.

55:37Just as a final note, despite that sympathy, do you think he's still, has he now talked himself slightly too loudly and too honestly out of any big jobs coming up in the next six months? because he said I'm leaving at the end of the season we all thought that he'd been linked with loads of big jobs his standing was amazing no longer term no I don't I mean short term yes I can see why people are having the knee-jerk reaction that oh no one's going to touch him with a barge pole now but I think any club that were thinking of him would still want to sit down and talk to him about that and I mean if he goes to a club which has resources he won't have these issues will he?

56:09Yeah there's also a question about like who's on the market at the moment and I think there aren't many you know we've seen this I think people are looking around Spurs for example Quite clearly are thinking about making a change But they're thinking who are we going to appoint Obviously Xabi Alonso's Dismissal from Real Madrid Changes things up in the summer There's people who will be back on the market Perhaps after the World Cup But there's not that many managers So I think he'll still be in the conversation And he deserves to be Football's an emotional game Most people in the game appreciate that You don't know who wants to work with a loose cannon But he's emotional He's been emotional in press conferences for weeks now And Alisson is right He has reason to feel that Because even if they were going to sell Eze and they were going to sell Gehi Which was obvious to everyone They could have prepared better All the signings That they made may not have been hits They may not have replaced Eze or Gehi To the same level But at least they've been shown to have been proactive And thought about it and done it Properly and set the team up After the success of last season for a bit of if not real progress just another positive season and they didn't do that so he's been angry from day one this season and it's just got worse and worse and I don't blame him for that but you're right it will make people think possibly twice about having someone quite so feisty in the dugout Thomas Frank at Crystal Palace by the end of the season Stranger things have happened I can see it I don't even think it'd be that strange anyway we'll see what the week holds as I say the mad weekend jam packed show didn't even have time Time to mention Leeds' brilliant win against Fulham or Gregor's fantastic feature about brain health and football.

57:50So we'll return to that on Thursday's show, but we'll leave it there. Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson, Ian Hawkey and Paul Hurst, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with an EFL Extra show very soon and the regular show on Thursday. See you then.