Manchester City - What happens next?

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1:18This is the story of the one. As a shipping manager, he's running the dock, stocking supplies, and making sure every order goes out on time. And Grainger helps him stay prepared. From shipping supplies to PPE to hand tools, he counts on Grainger to keep products moving and trucks rolling. So his operation runs smoothly, no matter the shift. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by Grainger. For the ones who get it done.

1:55Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Sham contracts, false evidence and a disguised funding scheme that brought in more than£900 million in fake revenue to help Manchester City conquer English football. The Independent Commission's judgement did not pull any punches. City are guilty of cheating on a scale unprecedented in the history of British football. But what now? We will be discussing that and all the latest developments in this huge story with the Chief Sports Correspondent for the Times, Matt Lawton, and in the second half of the show with the Times Chief Football Correspondent, Jonathan Northcroft.

2:33Johnny is just back from Prague and will hopefully find a bit of time to talk about England too. But first of all, it's great to have you on, Matt. You've worked on this story from the beginning and you've got a big story which has just gone live on the Times website, which is a fascinating development but first of all your reaction to the last few days and the scale of City's cheating yeah no it's been it's been staggering because while we've you know we've obviously been waiting 19 20 months for the decision I don't really think anyone imagined it would be quite so comprehensive in its in the level to which Manchester City have been found guilty it's extraordinary and and I've spent a lot of my career trying to expose cheating you know I do believe that as journalists we have a part to play in trying to protect the integrity of sport and this is this is massive this is as big as anything we've seen certainly the biggest story in the history of English football the repercussions are just you know the potential repercussions are just so massive you know we've got the prime minister now getting involved worried about the impact it could have on the uk economy if if the abidabi owners sort of picked up their ball and went home and and i and i say that as someone who lives in manchester you know i've seen the positive impact i worked on that side of manchester when i got my first job in national papers back in the mid-90s i worked in ancoats at the daily express and the transformation of that part of the city is remarkable and a lot of that is down to these owners so I kind of know where the Prime Minister's coming from on this but at the same time if City fail with their appeal if they are found guilty of this level of cheating beyond any doubt in the view of an appeal commission as well then yeah it's as bad as anything we've ever seen in sport.

4:30Tell us a bit about the story that's just gone live on the Times website. Manchester City sponsor Etihad threatens legal action against Premier League, that's the headline on the piece on the Times website. This is quite a new development, so tell us. Yeah, this statement, we were contacted by the airline earlier. This statement came in this evening, broken on the Times at 8 o 'clock. As we know, Etihad are the principal sponsors of Manchester City, hundreds of millions of pounds, naming rights for the stadium, it's on the kit, training ground. They are a massive part of the success story that has been matched to City.

5:09They're also an extremely big airline worth billions and billions of pounds. Obviously, one of the central planks of the accusations levelled at City by the commission is the fact that they had these sham sponsorship agreements and that they used them to, they used the owner's money. You know, these sponsorship deals were inflated by the owner's personal wealth and they cooked the books, if you like, to the tune of 900 million to enable them to spend the money on the players that ultimately have dominated English football for the last 10, 15 years. Now, while no specific sponsors were named in the 40-page decision that was published on Tuesday, the fact of the matter is, it quite clearly implies that the Etihad deal was among these deals that they've described as a sham agreement and Etihad this evening have objected to that and objected to the idea that they've been involved in any kind of irregular activity so they have not only challenged the view of the commission this independent commission that's found City guilty of this they've also objected to the fact they say that they were never contacted to give any evidence or give their side of the story at any point in the process.

6:32And finally, but most importantly, they've threatened legal action against the Premier League. So no, it's a big moment. Premier League have declined to comment this evening, but no, I think it's pretty significant. Are Etihad Airways state-owned? They are state-owned. Yeah, they are a state-owned airline. And as I say, Gregor, they are claiming that they have not been part of some kind of sham agreement, some kind of accountancy irregularities to inflate cities' revenue streams so that they could buy more players. They're fiercely rejecting that in their statement. It's very strongly worded. The kind of intriguing part of this too is that when you saw the levels of commercial revenue that were genuine, for want of a better word, and then they're greatly inflated, there have been a lot of graphs published in the Times, you see the tiny fraction of genuine revenue and then the huge inflated amount, part of you thinks this is actually all coming from the same source anyway.

7:32So what is the, these are still major, if the idea was just state-owned, how does that dynamic work? Well, it's a great question, and it's the kind of questions that we were all asking when the Qataris were looking to buy Manchester United, and we were saying, well, hang on, how does that work when they also own PSG? and they would they would argue that there were different different families different pot of money so look i i think the thing is it is state-owned etihad airways the distinction that you could obviously make from what we can see now is that is that what uh city are accused of here is actually that it's the abu dhabi united group that is the parent company owned by shait mansoor which owns Master City, it was their money and not Etihad's money, the state-owned money that was put into this inflating this sponsorship deal.

8:31So there is a distinction that can be made, because that's the key distinction that is being made by the commission itself, that this wasn't Etihad's money, it wasn't the government's money, it was Sheikh Mansour's money, essentially. And you referenced a moment earlier about the other story on the Times website tonight, Andy Burnham, I don't want to lose city owners, they helped build modern Manchester, you spoke a bit about that. That's kind of an early sort of signpost to some of the political forces that could possibly be at play in this story as well. It spreads far and wide. It does. I think it just shows the sheer enormity of this story.

9:17On so many levels, it's so big. I don't think there's anyone out there that doesn't believe that if by the end of this process, they are guilty, their appeal fails, and a sanction is handed out. I don't think there's anyone that doesn't think that the sanction has to be severe for that kind of industrial level of cheating. Because at the end of the day, I know what Rodri said the other day. I know what Joe Hart's been saying. Yes, those players, and you will empathise as much as anybody, Gregor, as an ex-professional footballer. Yes, they all, the 11 guys on the pitch, they all played football and they played brilliant football and they won the game.

10:01But the fact of the matter is, what Rodri needs to understand is, he might not have had such good players to pass to if they hadn't had such resource to build the team in the first place. Everyone gets that, but weighed against that are lots of concerns. Andy Burnham has sort of cited one this evening, which is a potential impact not just to the Manchester economy, but to the UK economy. You know, like you've got two flights a day that come into Manchester Airport as you have flights every day. I've no idea how much that is worth, but I imagine it's worth quite a lot of money. Then, as you say, you've got the mere fact that they've pumped all this money into the UK economy, you know, in Manchester and into the football club.

10:50You know, I was actually watching one of my daughters play football tonight and watching as well was an auntie of one of her friends who plays for Burnley. you know and she is we were actually talking about it she has been a beneficiary of this incredible sports medical center that's in manchester that's next door to the etihad that you know people like keely hodgkinson use uh inios grenadiers cycling team use he has one of the best medical sports facilities in the world they built that okay there was there was some there was some city money and and and other investors but a lot of that money came from from abu dhabi So you've got that to consider.

11:30I also think that as much as Richard Masters has kind of made his position very clear in that statement, and I admired the way that he sort of put his head above the parapet there, and he didn't just hide behind a Premier League statement or the Commission's decision. You know, he actually added his own voice to this situation yesterday, which I thought showed quite sort of bold leadership. but the Premier League is a brand. The Premier League is one of the great sort of UK exports. And if the punishment is so severe that basically Manchester City disappears down the leagues and never returns and all the players leave and what has been there for all these years with all this brilliant football just never comes back.

12:19Well, the Premier League is only going to be poorer for it. So I think there's a lot and the damage that does to the reputation of the Premier League is probably already damaged. But, you know, we did spend weeks at the World Cup and a lot of the narrative around that was about the growth of soccer, football in America. The fact that the Premier League boasts sort of, you've got 40 odd million Americans watching Premier League football every season. They've opened offices in Manhattan. and they want to grow the brand of the Premier League. They want it to be, it already is, but they want to continue to build on it being the most popular league in the world.

12:59And this whole thing, as much as it is important to go through this process, as much as it is important to punish anybody that cheats in sport, the damage and the potential ramifications, yeah, just extend beyond the comprehension, I think, of any of us really because we really don't know where it's going to end. On that kind of train of thought it feels to me that the attitudes have hardened a bit towards City since this decision since the Independent Commission's decision was revealed there probably was a bit of the things you're talking about the damage reputationally to the Premier League should be weighed up against the severity of the punishment but when this has all been laid out in black and white, does it feel to you from people you're speaking to that maybe attitudes have hardened a bit and having said all that you can't have them in the Premier League.

13:49Yeah. No, no. As I say, look, if this ends, if, you know, if City are unsuccessful in their appeal, then, you know, as I say, I can't sit here as a journalist that pursues people who cheat for a living and think they shouldn't have the book thrown at them. That would be insane. I'd be betraying my own views, principles, you know. So, no, no. And I'm not saying that, you know, that we should consider these factors before handing out a sanction, that we should be worried about the... My point is that we shouldn't let that other stuff influence what should be the right punishment. But I do wonder whether it will do.

14:30I do wonder whether Andy Burnham coming out the way he has might actually impose some kind of pressure. Like, who knows what kind of conversations are going on in the background, Gregor, the conversations that, as journalists, we're just not party to. You know, there'll be all sorts of pressures here. You know, it's, it is, it's, it is just a huge situation because you can't deny that, you know, the relationships that this country has with the different countries in the Middle East, you can't deny that they are important and valuable. I just think there will be an awful lot of nervousness around that.

15:05And it's, yeah, it's just, as I say, the imports of this goes way beyond the sort of boundaries of that Premier League table. It's so much bigger because of the people involved. One other interesting thing that's emerged today is the statement by David Cogan, the independent football regulator, who seem to be leaving the door ajar to judging whether Sheikh Mansour is fit and proper. And there are a lot of calls to strip the owner of the football club. What do you make of that and that development? Obviously, the independent football regular later is a fairly recent phenomenon. It kind of gives another weapon in the arsenal, perhaps.

15:51look the the the independent regulator has been created to have that kind of power it's been given you know the power to remove owners by the government because there's been a recognition because of some of the horror stories we've seen at our football clubs over the years because they're so important to our communities our cities um that they need more protection because the fact is they can sometimes be vulnerable to to bad owners to rogue owners and and this is not just at the top level you know the money laundering in the lower leagues you know clubs used as vehicles for all sorts of criminality so it was really important that the IFR was created and they do have that power you know in the same way that they you know that they might be able to force a shareholder to sell their shares or whatever they they could indeed make an intervention at the end of this process as i say if city fail if a sanction is in their appeal if a sanction is handed out and the conclusion is that you know the the guilty verdict remains that these guys broke the rules to such a massive extent to become successful in the Premier League and in the Champions League, then yeah, I think it's inevitable that the IFR will remove these owners from Manchester City.

17:19But it comes back again to what Andy Burnham was saying tonight. So you've got the government created this body. They gave him the power to do that. But then you've got the Prime Minister saying, look, I can't really get involved, but I'd hate to see them go. So again, it's just all these different factors, all these different forces at play. You know, at some point it will all play out once we've had this sanction hearing, once we've had the appeal hearing, and then we'll have a better idea where we are. I do think it's really, it will be really interesting to see, you know, Fran Soriano saying yesterday that this, that the Premier League case is built on one, you know, a single false accusation.

18:01We need to see what that is. We need to see, you know, you've had Pep Guardiola come out today and say, I stand by these guys, I stand by my owner, I stand by Manchester City. They're all being told quite clearly that they believe they've got a strong case that they can win at appeal. Because it would be nuts if actually they haven't got a leg, they know they haven't got a leg to stand on. and they're persuading people like Soriano and Pep Guardiola and the chairman, Khaldun, gives his statement on Saturday. If this is all built on an attempt to try and claim there's a technical issue or they took too long, therefore it's unsafe, they must have more than that.

18:46It'd be fascinating to see what they come back with. Just finally, do you not think that even if that were the case and they were to get off on a technicality, we've kind of moved beyond that. It feels like there's a welter of information now that demonstrates that this has been cheating on an industrial scale and there's not really any coming back from it, even if we were to find a legal loophole. Yeah, if it's a technicality, in the court of public opinion, I don't think anyone cares. And certainly the view of the commission is, you know, they've clearly so far dismissed all their arguments because it was so comprehensive.

19:26however 100 plus charges found guilty. It's a massive result. And as I say, as I said right at the start, I don't know if any of us end, I think because the way that the legal battle over the associated party transactions played out where it ended up as a bit of a score draw, City's won some of it, the Premier League won other bits of it. I think we thought it would be a bit more evened out and I think the sort of, the more skeptical were you know i had conversations over the last year where people were predicting without any intel you know without any real insight but predicting that they'd get you know they'd get a slap wrist for mancini's double salary and and for lack of cooperation but they'd get cleared on on the more substantive charges that's not been the case they've been hammered on the substantive charges so yeah as i say i i did not expect the outcome that we we learned of on Friday and I certainly didn't expect it to be quite so damning in in the language you know it was it was words like sham it was explosive stuff yesterday I'm breathtaking really like as I say you sort of my sort of 30 odd years in journalism there's been some there's been some seismic moments but that's as big as any that that statement yesterday which I thought was just extraordinary Matt thank you very much for joining us and you can see Matt's brilliant journalism on the Times website along with Martin Ziegler a new column from Martin Samuel talking about the fact that it takes if it takes a billion pounds of cheating to win the league our game has a big problem a coruscating column by Matthew Side as well on Pep Guardiola and much much more so go to the Times website for all the latest we'll be back after the break to talk to Jonathan Northcroft.

21:17Good to see you then.

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24:01Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson and I'm delighted to now be joined by Jonathan Northcroft. Just arrived back on British soil from Prague to discuss a story that's overtaken all of England, England's actions on the pitch over the international break, Johnny. I think the first question to ask you is, we know this has been, we always knew this was going to be big but somehow the scale of cities cheating and actually also the the tone of the of the independent commission's report and the words used it's still been shocking really is that the way you've is that your reaction to oh very much so and it was it was also you know it was the reaction in the press box last night in in prague you know and there with a number of the the sort of leading writers on other papers as well and look this is something it's a strange feeling because it's it's a story that we all knew was coming it's a story we all knew was going to be big and it's a rare case that when it actually breaks it's even bigger than you thought i think the scale of the offenses are way bigger than i think any of us had imagined and the way that they're outlined in the judgment there's figures put on the scale of this this cheating and deception and and the fact that it amounts to touch you know over 900 million pounds that just the figures shock you um i find you're right about the language gregor i think the reaction to that's been interesting and maybe maybe slightly misunderstood because the judgment is using words like um sham uses sham a lot dishonest not acting in good faith and in some quarters this has been interpreted as the premier League reacting emotionally towards Manchester City and you know look at them they're really trying to stick the knife in City with this language and that's a misunderstanding because this isn't the Premier League's judgment this is an independent panel's judgment these are three KCs and it's their language it's not the Premier League's language and when you look at a term like sham which is a very strong word but it's actually a legal term it's a defined legal term which wouldn't be used without legal basis you know and a sham in legal terms is it's an arrangement or a document that has been created to intentionally deceive that that's that's that's a pretty that's a pretty big thing but it's a strict legal definition and i read the the full judgment or the judgment that's available to us on the plane back this morning and i've read a number of these judgments over the years from the Everton and the Forrest to some of the disciplinary cases like Luis Suarez, the racism cases.

26:52And I've always looked at these judgments and been slightly taken aback at how loose they tend to be, the language. You always think as a journalist, you think as a writer and you go, oh, that needs editing because they've repeated themselves there and they've done this. This judgment is different. This is really, this is written in a very cold focused tight way it's actually quite brief the the the judgment that's i know 40 pages doesn't sound brief but it is if you read these other judgments and i think it's it's attempting to be as laser focused as possible because they know that manchester city are going to try and appeal everything so you know a word out of place in this judgment is something that manchester city could try and seize on so i come back the fact that when when you've got three top cases talking about dishonesty, talking about a sham, talking about what they call a disguised funding scheme.

27:47That's how they term Manchester City's arrangements to hide the ownership funding that was going into the club. I mean, this is big stuff. The fact that they're putting it out there quite so boldly. It's not emotional. This is what they see as the severity of these offences. and that's bowled me over as much as anything that and the figures, it really hits home to you that however grave we thought this was it's probably bigger and worse We'll come to what this means for the Premier League and what the possible sanctions might be or what you think they should be in a moment I just wondered what you've made of City's response I mean you maybe saw Ferran Soriano's video with the staff which seemed remarkable, he's talking about conspiracy theories He's still talking about this irrefutable evidence that has not been actually made clear.

28:39This is a video where the man doesn't blink for two minutes and 30 seconds. Yes. Yeah, a lot's made of that too. I mean, come on. I find it weird, actually. I did find that was just a weird video, to be honest, in tone and in content. And I think one thing that's quite dangerous is he talks about opinion. this is a judgment by three of Britain's top lawyers so to go down the road of saying well there's an opinion against us that's undermining the process in my mind, that's undermining trust in British law in the Premier League rules that they've signed up to and I think that's really disingenuous I'm not surprised that the fact city is sticking however to their guns I think that's all they can do I also, that's what I'd expect them to do they've been robust the whole way through this they have done that partly in order to I think keep the fan base energised and motivated and the messaging's all about you know, we've been through worse and we'll come through this again and fine, fair enough that's what football clubs do they exist to rally communities of people into tribes, Pep Guardiola's added to it, you know, I'm here for you City family, we'll always be there, we'll get through this together, great, you know, great and I don't have anything against city fans they they they've stuck together and the people in charge of their club are asking them to do that once again but the there's nothing in those city responses that i think shifts the dial there's nothing material factual there's nothing that points to something that's been missed i think the original statement tried to cast tried to insinuate it might not be a fair process which again is undermining things but you know they talk about irrefutable evidence well that evidence was put to the panel and the panel haven't found it irrefutable at all so you can't keep saying look i i know i know i know i'm in prison for you know whatever but i've got irrefutable evidence that i'm not guilty fine fine mate you're in prison so i haven't seen anything that makes me they'll definitely appeal but I don't see anything that makes me think that there's a big rabbit that they can pull out the hat on a factual basis that might change everything.

31:02I think what they will do, clearly, is continue to try and challenge the process and maybe the sanction once it comes out. What if Pep Guardiola then? He's also released a short statement on social media today on Wednesday, as we record. I want every single Man City fan to know I am here more than ever. I am, always have been, always will be behind my club, my owner, my chairman, Ferran, the player, staff, Enzo and you, our unique supporters. Let me be clear, we will get through this together, I love you all. You also wrote a piece for the SD weekend about how this reframes Guardiola's greatness potentially.

31:42Pep's spoken in the past as well about the day he finds out he's been lied to, he's gone. He's already gone and he's still backing up his former employers. Yeah, it does. And Matthew Syed's written a very strong piece that's on our site. It says Pep Guardiola, greatest manager of all time, do me a favour. The piece I wrote on Sunday was just trying to ask, really ask, what have we been watching all these years and what does it mean for how we view the players involved and Pep Guardiola? I wrote that with no pleasure whatsoever. I think Pep Guardo is, irrespective of what's happened at Manchester City, one of the very greatest managers of all time.

32:23He's changed the game of football. He did that at Barcelona and Bayern Munich before he even set foot in England. And we saw with our own eyes the football he played at Manchester City. So that exists. I've spoken to him, I've listened to him for years. That exists. but what has changed is our ability to to judge what he was doing against the people he was doing it against i likened it to seeing an amazing formula one driver but then discovering that the car that he's been driving has been you know illegally modified to give him an advantage on everybody else so then you kind of think was he that much better than the guy that was second you have to question I don't think you can accept the achievements of Manchester City in the period that they've been found guilty of cheating for I just don't think logically you can just shrug and go yeah fine fine you know I mean they cheated but they're still champions in this era and again I say that with no players it's a mess you don't want to sort of asterisk titles or strip titles out but I just don't see how logically you can say that they have the same value uh anymore and that then then logically that means does does what Pep Guardiola did have the same value still a great coach but how can we judge him let's say for judging him against Alex Ferguson and his his titles against his titles well what do we count what Pep's done and and as I say I feel I feel sad about that because it's somebody I massively admire.

34:01I don't want this to be the case. And has Pep been lied to? Did he know? I don't know. That's not in the judgement. I think it's wrong to speculate about that. It's unfair on Pep Guardiola at this point to speculate about that. But can we say that his achievements in England are worth what we thought they were a week ago? No, we can't. That brings us on to what happens next and perhaps what the sanctions may be. I feel a little bit taking the temperature since this decision has been announced. The full detail of it, the attitudes have hardened a little bit. Is a points deduction enough? Should they just be expelled?

34:44Should even perhaps, as Owen Slott has written on another column in the Times website, Sheikh Mansour be stripped of the club stripped of Manchester City as being the club's owner. and I should say as well that David Cogan the independent people regulator has released a statement on that today as well saying that the independent commission's decision raises serious issues, the IFR has powers to assess the suitability of owners, directors and executives and we will use these powers where appropriate in the interest of protecting the sustainability honesty and integrity of English football where there is clear evidence of wrongdoing by individuals so you know it seems to have opened that door Yes, very much so where do you stand yeah i mean well start with david cogan that was interesting the statement um it was it was it was a signal of of of intent to to get involved in this once the premier league process is over and and and he reminded us in that statement of his his um duty to try and protect the integrity of english english football so clearly at a time where the regulator has tightened up the fit and proper persons test uh in terms of who's allowed to invest in clubs logically he will also be stiffening up who's allowed to be in charge and run clubs and by and by the way when you look at the detail of the the judgment uh if it's upheld again logically i don't see how and by it's redacted a lot of it so you don't know which individuals it's referring to at certain points there's a reference to somebody being dishonest don't know who it is you you read that and you can't you can't conclude that that that or the conclusion's got to be that Some of the people involved can't run a football club in future because of the scale of the deception and the cheating.

36:31In terms of what happens, again, I come back to the fact that we need to understand what the process is here. And the process is quite a narrow, focused process involving a panel in three KCs. They will make the judgment. What we think is good for English football or what's morally right, that doesn't really matter. These people will make the judgment and they will try and come up with a proportional judgment that I guess can't really be challenged because, I mean, again, Manchester City are likely to appeal. So they'll be thinking we have to make this fair and unchallengeable. I think I'm saying that the Premier League will make a recommendation to the party.

37:14That's correct. The Premier League will make a recommendation and that's what happened in the Everton and Nottingham Forest case. And the panel will then go off precedent. And the difficulty here is there's no precedent for nine years. And, you know, like, I don't know, let's take Nottingham Forest, four million, sorry, four-point deduction for£35 million worth of PSR breaches. They could have also bridged that gap if he'd sold Brennan Johnson a couple of weeks earlier in the transfer window. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Really, really, really small details often involved in these cases. Yeah, and in their case, there's no suggestion there was a, you know, as it is here, that there was a sham, there was a deliberate attempt to mislead or anything like that.

38:04You know, Everton, I think, ended up being six points for 20 million. Not all the 900 million pounds would be treated as a PSR breach because some of it is a period before PSR existed. Some of it, not all, you know, this is all extra sponsorship or extra, sorry, or extra owner funding, but it's not the same. That's not the same as, in fact, the judgment says they need to resubmit their accounts, I think, effectively. Look, we can safely say we're going to be talking about something, hundreds of millions over the PSR thresholds, you know, aggregated over a number of years. And you do the maths based on, let's say, forest and you get near 100 points.

38:46But that is only part of the case. The PSR bit is only part of the case. The payments to Mancini's contract, the Fordsham scheme, which was used, an image rights scheme that was brought into question, the non-cooperation with the Premier League, the breaking of UEFA rules. There's so many other layers to this. And reading the Premier League rules, there's a lot of options available to this panel beyond points deductions and fines. Expulsion is one of them. Suspension is one of them. There's a kind of any other business, anything else you see fit to do. It's uncharted territory, but I do think that any idea that this is going to, the Premier League are going to try and work out something that's going to be good for everyone, good for them, they might make a recommendation, but they don't have the power to actually impose the penalty.

39:41it'll be the panelists Johnny I'm going to channel my owner Tom Clark and say if you were on the panel what would be your what do you think would be a fair yeah well okay I certainly don't think they can play in the Premier League next season and probably beyond but I'm kind of now getting into other complexities so does that mean that they just have to go into the Football League how would the EFL feel about that I certainly think some sort of suspension or barring from the competition for a period of time has to be a route I think there has to be a huge financial route in terms of paying costs and compensation well paying legal costs compensation is another matter that's not what the panel are going to decide that'll be courts of law or Premier League but yeah look I certainly think they can't play in the Premier League for a period of time and I would strip the titles.

40:42I just think you have to. I just think that's not even a punishment. That's just logic. As I say, I wouldn't be doing that to in any way, yeah, get even punished. That's just being logical. I just think in the record books, you can't count. By the way, I'm talking about the titles in this period because there's also a misconception that you then have to wipe out all the subsequent titles. That's a whole other kettle of fish with arguments on both sides. but let's focus on this period. Okay, well I'm sure this is, well I'm certain this is a story we're going to be returning to for a long time to come.

41:18Just quickly Johnny, I mean you've been in this industry a long, long time can you think of a bigger story certainly in Premier League history? No, not in Premier League history, by the way I think it's four titles I think, not in Premier League history I think in, obviously I don't know, Martin Ziegler has broken Super League, Super League might have been feels like it was as big in some ways because you're talking about the global game. And by the way, whatever happens now, English football will continue, Premier League will continue, Manchester City will continue. They've got incredibly loyal supporters who didn't sign up to support that club because they were in search of glory every year.

41:53That's not the contract for a Man City fan. They'll back the club. Whereas something like Super League was an existential threat and in a way so was the big FIFA sell-off. In terms of the story that's going to run on, because those other examples had a fairly quick time frame we might be discussing this story in this podcast in two or three years time longer we've already been speaking about it for eight years so that's a great way to end anyway before we do wrap up Johnny let's talk about England there's no doubt what I mean talking point was from England's win against the 10 Manchette Republic.

42:42He's often the main talking point when he's not in the team too, but it was Trent Alexander-Arnold and he was the focus because of a moment that breached, I think what you described in your match report as England's old nemesis, the low block. Just a moment of magic that Trent produced and it became all about him. Yeah, I mean, I also talked to the report about Trent Bingo. It was Trent Bingo last night. It really was. I love the line as well. Let me say quickly where you said, after he'd seemingly vexed Tuchel, he whipped out a notebook to scribble furiously. Was it a love heart encircling the words, Rhys James?

43:17Tuchel was undoubtedly. I mean, it was amazing watching. We were in a great position in the press box in the Fortuna Arena, which was just right on top of where the small stadium and it's kind of on top of where the technical areas are. So I've watched Tuchel a lot. I mean, he went through everything with Trent. there was an early sort of point where Chalabar misplaced the header and Trent maybe a more robust defensive player would have won the ball back but he couldn't and Tuchel was shaking his head there was a moment on the edge of the box where Tuchel wanted Trent to do the thing he'd been programmed to do and look for Saka on the outside or play across and Trent had his own ideas as he always does and decided to play back and you could see Tuchel sort of going through it all and then of course the wand comes out and he just produces that moment of of um it was quality but it was also a vision it was the two together it was it was it was instantly seeing that gordon could make a run to the spot he was going to make and then in that moment understanding exactly the right trajectory of of cross which you know was a really difficult one to play fast sort of bent around the defenders and just about set up for Gordon.

44:36And very few players could even do that technically, let alone see it, and he can do both. So I also describe Trent as Marmite. I think that's just the way of things. You either love him or you hate him. I love him. I'm a glass half full person when it comes to footballers. I prefer to look at what they can do rather than what they can't do. And I've watched England enough against low-glock teams. I've watched England enough labouring in games and I don't think England always have the best ballplayers on the pitch I think they go for physicality sometimes or good soldiers who will do all the tactics the way they've been programmed to but Trent gives you that something different and it worked for England last night actually defensively he was fairly sound as well I thought you could see him trying his heart out and then of course Tuchel is fairly lukewarm about him afterwards because that's also...

45:31It was remarkable, yeah. He was asked the question about can anyone else play that ball? And he said, well, can anyone else make that finish? You know, but something like that. It was like, you just seemed determined to turn away from any real place. You know what it made me think of? It made me think of where we were with Jude Bellingham a year ago, where no matter what Jude did, Tuchel would find a way to burst the balloon just a little bit. But I know, you see, you know what it is with him? He loves his brotherhood, right? He talks about this sort of, the importance of the squad and the vibes and stuff.

46:02It took Jude months to kind of, you know, he didn't need to prove his ability on the pitch. It took him months just to prove that he could be one of the brothers. And now Tuchel can't get enough of him. He talks about him in the most glowing terms. And I think for Trent, you know, it's not going to be getting the wand out and playing a couple of brilliant balls. It'll be showing over a period of time that he's one of the brothers and that you know he he he can do the the hard stuff for the team when it counts and all that kind of thing that Tuchel loves but I was really pleased for Trent because throughout his long strange England career where he's never been valued really and apart from by Lee Carsley he's always wanted to play for England he's always wanted to turn up he's always wanted to be there and you can't say that but everyone so it's nice to see him rewarded Okay Luke Johnny I don't think we've got time To talk about Stefan Pocanoli's Oh never mind Inglourious start To time Another time Gregor Another time Yeah another Another reward Of you sitting in this chair I can decide Just to move on And not talk about Scotland So Take on Croatia On Saturday of course And then With the return match Against the Czech Republic On Tuesday Hopefully we'll be able To speak to Johnny About all of that And more as The latest developments Emerge About this Remarkable story Involving Manchester City You can catch up with all of that, all the latest on the Times website.

47:27Johnny, thank you very much for joining me. I hope to see you on Monday.

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