Manchester United humiliated - what now for Amorim?

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0:57United and their beleaguered head coach. We'll be discussing the fallout from that humiliating result. Plus, on Monday night, Liverpool's 16-year-old Rio Ngomoa became the youngest scorer in the club's history when he struck with virtually the last kick of the game to snatch all three points against 10-man Newcastle United. The Alexander-Isak saga loomed large over an emotionally charged night at St James' Park and emotions boiled over for West Ham United's Jared Bohm too after their cup exit at the hands of Wolves. We'll be asking if West Ham and Graham Potter can turn their awful start to the season around before it's too late.

1:33I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me on today's show we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel and the Times columnist and former Chelsea Aston Villa and Millwall striker Tony Cascarino. Right guys, only one place to start, one place. there's too many fish too many fish opportunities here pathetic United humiliated by Grimsby and shoot out epic is the headline on the Times website not pulling any punches I'm afraid to say it's fair oh absolutely it's fair I'm the best team won yeah the best team won I mean it's very worrying I mean the whole thing from Manchester United's perspective I mean if you just look at little vignettes in the penalty shootout.

2:23The first thing that the manager can't watch yet, I mean, it was bizarre, you know. He looked like he was sort of hiding behind this sort of wall of bodies. He's got his head down, he's looking at the floor, he's rocking. He looked like something out of one floor over the Cuckoo's Mission, expecting Jack Nicholson to turn up. It was, you know, you look at the people that missed the penalties, It's all the new signings, the guys that have been sort of detailed to score the goals. They're the guys that miss the penalties. And the one that gets me is Sesco, who is their, you know, the new red-hot striker, takes the 10th penalty.

3:02I mean, one before the goalkeeper. And I was just saying to Tony that I used to write a column with Jimmy Greaves And, you know, Jimmy was never one of those sort of – Jimmy never used to get the sort of credit that, you know, Gary Neville gets for all the tactical analysis of this. But he would say things very sort of instinctively that were spot on, that were really cut to some sort of truth about football. And he could never understand a centre forward that didn't want to take the penalty. Not only that, he widened that argument to this. every club in the world is working towards the same thing.

3:48Every single training session they do is all geared towards getting their main goal scorer, one-on-one with a goalkeeper, about 12 yards out. That's everything you do, that's what your ultimate aim is, to try to get somebody and probably your number nine with only the goalkeeper beat, 12 yards out. and he could not understand any centre forward that didn't fancy his chances placed in that position. And I know it's a very unique discipline, et cetera, et cetera, but he couldn't understand any centre forward that didn't want to go, right, this one, lads, I'll show you how this is done and then you guys follow my lead.

4:2812 yards out, only the goalkeeper to beat, bang, it goes there. Right, now, that's what you do. That's too simple. Of course it's simple, but then Jimmy saw football in a very, very simple way sometimes. But it's always stuck in my mind. I think it was in reference to when Wales could have qualified for the World Cup and the left back takes the penalty and they've got Ian Rush and Mark Hughes in the team or something like that. And Jim was like, just couldn't fathom it at all. and this is what Manchester United the vortex of Manchester United does to a player it's his first game and we're already saying why is he bottling penalties why is he 10th it's not that's a good point this is the modern Manchester United you've got five penalties you don't have to take the first one take the fourth one he's 10th yeah there's a couple of things look we know that this podcast and a lot of others around who are going to be talking about Manchester United there's a couple of things that struck me straight away no something that struck me straight away is that you said Ameren couldn't watch so you've got a manager who can't watch and you've got a centre forward who don't want to take you to number 10 it's not looking good okay Martin asked me did I take penalties and I said well I did but sometimes sometimes you move to a club and there's a penalty taker designated so you don't get that spot but when I joined Marseille I'm sitting in the dressing room and the coach says and Bernard Tappé, who owns the club, is in the dressing room because he always was.

6:08It says penalty taker and Tappé says numero neuf. Just point. And I didn't, I'd just joined the club, so I didn't even know what he meant. And they all looked at me and went, you, I realised I had the number nine shirt on. So I was told to take it by the owner of the football club. And I remember thinking, wow. But I wanted to take it. I took the ball, grabbed it and took it. And I actually had a really good record as a penalty taker. But mine's made a really big point. If you can't have a centre forward at your club who has got the confidence to take a spot kick from 12 yards against a keeper, who's not to put...

6:44A fourth division keeper? A fourth... Who's not very tall, by the way. Well, don't get me going on... Look, some people might totally disagree with this. Fourth division players are not as good technically as Premier League players, yeah? I think we can all... Is that a fair point? Yeah, I think we can all have an agreement on that. So how can they score so many and they look far better technical, their penalties, than Manchester United? Now, we can go, well, this is a one-off scenario. But you've got players at the highest level. And look, Manchester United scored a lot of their penalties as well.

7:11Let's get that right. So there was good penalties by both sides. You know, there was a lot of penalties scored. Obviously, that's why we got to 11 against 12, you know, or whatever it ended up. But I find it really strange that you join a new club and your first port of call is like a goalkeeper. You've got to make a good save, right? A goalkeeper has to join a club and he's got to make a good save early on. just to get things moments of defenders of fans a penalty's the same a striker should be going to me I'm having it if they're not if there's someone at the club okay he's your penalty taker but if you're the guy that's coming in he's got to put his hand up look Amorim to be fair said the penalties didn't matter by that point because they were so bad before this and let's be honest Grimsy were 2-0 up within half an hour they should have been 3-0 up at the start of the second half they deserved to win it over 90 minutes so let's talk about the 90 minutes as well because United were woeful they only, the last 15 minutes when they made some subs as well they showed some retreating into their own box I mean Amarin's press conference afterwards as well I mean obviously we call this in the morning it goes out at some stage in the afternoon we could be completely overtaken by events here because Amorin, after the game, spoke like a bloke who was almost hoping someone tapped him on the shoulder and said, I think we're done here, mate.

8:42And it was... He said, I think the players spoke really loudly about what they want today. I just want to apologise to our fans. Something has to change and you're not going to change 22 players again. And then he also said, we've got a game at the weekend and then we've got two weeks in the international break. to sort things out. But it was a massive, massive hint that he wants to walk away. Oh, that's what I... I looked at that and thought, well, what he's saying? And at the end, the interview that I watched was on Sky, because I know he gives another one on ITV later. The interview I watched on Sky, what it reminded me of.

9:20At the end, when the interview is still pressing him and still pressing him and sort of getting him to clarify or whatever, And you could tell he was almost losing it. Yeah, yeah, he was. It reminded me of, in the absolute glory days of Arsenal fan TV when they weren't really winning anything and after every single time they got beat, it was, Arsenal fan TV was just four geezers just arguing about, you know, like it was a hysterical watch. It was the first. It's everywhere now, that sort of thing. And there was one when they get beat 3-0 at Stoke. And so they're arguing over this stage. These guys are completely losing, just completely losing.

10:11He goes, you might have to bleep the... He said, look, look. He said, we're 3-0 down in our f***ing pub team. Well, it was a bit like Amron at the end of that interview when she asked the last question, it was almost, if you want to go, we're 2-0 down to Fing Grimsby. It was that sort of thing. He looked so exasperated by it and he's trying to couch it in those, I think the team spoke for me very well. What he wanted to say is, look, shoot me now because I'm getting nothing out of that lot. I'm getting nothing out of that. Yeah, another question put to him was about the keeper And again, he was like, it's not about the keeper.

10:59But it kind of was in this game. Oh, no, no, it was woeful, wasn't it? It was. Well, a couple of things, right? We haven't got a goalkeeping coach here, have we? So we haven't got anyone to defend the goalkeepers union, if it's defendable. But let's get a couple of things right. The first goal, right? Okay, you might not get there. His feet are not quick enough. I mean, all the best goalkeepers have quick feet, get across, and they can get to it. So they do it. The second one, right? There's one thing that struck me immediately about the second one. He's came out with two arms. A goalkeeper must come out with one because you try jumping with two arms.

11:34You ever see a centre-forward jump with his two arms up and then he in? They don't. It's hard to get leverage. So he comes out with the two arms like he's Superman, but you have to come with one. You come running out to do that, either arm, right or left. You don't need to punch it with two hands. No, you don't need to punch it with two hands. It's way harder. So he's fundamentally, as a goalkeeper, he's done the worst thing you can do. You can't do what he did. If he comes out and misses it and he goes with one arm, I go, well, I sort of get it. It can happen that way. But you tell me a goalkeeper that comes out with two hands like he did for their goal, their second goal.

12:10I mean, it's just beyond belief. There's a certain thing. I mean, this is where I love being at home. Obviously, being at home and watching it, I'm loving it. Because we all have our WhatsApp, don't you? You get your messages and all the messages are coming through. You're laughing at some of the stuff that's coming on. And I'm looking and I'm thinking, what's the qualities of being the Manchester United player? Because anyone who talks like we do have witnessed Manchester United over a long period of time. We become like the old dinosaur view of the game. But what are the qualities that you need?

12:40And it's technical to be a Man United player. You'd think you'd probably have to be quite quick. You'd have to have the mentality. And you would also have to have the quality of battling. because if you look at the best Man United teams, they'd have a keen Robson, you know, and others, Paul Ince, you know, people who win the ball and they don't lose the battle. I watched for an hour in every position they lost the battle. Yeah. So all the qualities you need to be a Man United player, none of that was on show for an hour. The lad up front who's a 19-year-old, Gardner. Yeah, Gardner? Yeah. I mean, I know it's Sesco's debut in some of these, but he was chasing his backside off and making it as difficult as he could for the two centre or, you know, they played as a three.

13:21And I'm thinking, he's 19. He's a kid. And then you look around the team, you're going, well, their goalkeeper's much better than an honour. Okay, so I'm watching them on the one occasion. But you're doing that on every position. And I'm thinking, I am watching, Fergie once said, it's Spurs. And I'm watching Man United being way more Spurs-y than Spurs. But it's not even, I tell you what, it's not even as well, it's not even like one of those, you hear the famous stories of Yeovil in the FA Cup and the pitch was a slope and it was a muddy and stuff like that. None of that. None of that. Old Grimsby manager, Mick Lyons, Everton player, smashing player, Mick.

14:03And I used to work in, do the Yorkshire patch for the Sunday people and the stuff. And I used to speak to Mick when he was Grimsby manager. They'd get drawn against Arsenal in the FA Cup. and Mick said to me, what I'm going to do? He said, I've had football focus on. He said, they want to interview me live. He said, I'm going to do it in the TV gantry that's right on. And the gantry was right on the top of the roof of the stand. It was like, you know, it was a nightmare to get up to and on those rickety old ladders and all sorts. He said, I'm going to go up there. He said, because they'll all be staying in the hotel.

14:41He said, they'll be watching this. He said that blows straight off the North Sea onto that stand. He said it's going to frighten the life out of them, that interview. He said they'll all be watching it in the hotel before the coach leaves. They didn't win, but it was 4-3. And it sort of did the trick, you know. Arsenal turned up at Blundell Park and were thinking, oh, bloody hell, what are we walking into here? But it wasn't like that last night. I'm looking at the pitch. It was perfect until there was that downpour. And then there was surface water, which can happen anywhere, that can happen at Wembley, it was absolutely perfect.

15:17And the football they played too. It's not like, there's this old kind of cliches about, you know, Route 1 football and, you know, as you say, the blood and thunder and stuff. They were aggressive, but like in the right way. And they played really good football. Dave Artel came through, you know, at Cruel Alexandra, you know, playing really good football and he was a meathead centre half. I played against him loads of times. But it's suddenly this pivot to wanting to play like brave, expansive football and they're a really progressive club it's quite common that yeah another thing that some listeners might not know is that they use the same data that Brighton and Old Albion do in their recruitment are they one of the yeah they're one of the they're the only other team in England a company called Jamestown Analytics so Grimsby obviously made the the FA Cup quarterfinal a couple of years ago played against Brighton in that FA Cup quarterfinal when they eventually went out you know got to know Tony Bloom and that's how the partnership was born so they've they're a progressive club now despite the surroundings and all that so they thoroughly deserved it thoroughly deserved it Larn FC did that as well in Northern Ireland they used the analytics of the broom yeah sorry the manager has got a he's got a master's degree in forensic biology indeed I mean you know and his interview at the end was brilliant he said look lads what are penalties and the two things he said it's a technical test and it's a psychological test so you're going to be nervous walking to the end of the box that was my point about the penalty takers in the team technically they were way better but obviously that kind of conversation you would imagine would ground the players before such a big moment in their careers and what a night what a night for Grimsby How do you think, if it had ended with a goal being allowed and it ended 3-0, because it was very possible, it could have easily ended 3-0.

17:18And I'm looking at them, and so much I'm watching, I'm thinking about all the Man City, I kept thinking in my head, all the Man United players I've played with in my career, whether it was with Ireland, whether it was like Dwight York, I was a short period at Villa, Sheridan at Millwall, Kevin Morant, there's about nine or ten of them, Barthez at Marseille. And I'm thinking every position, I nearly filled a team of all the positions I've played with at the nine, all different positions. McGrath, you know, and others, I think Kevin Moran and Danny Serwin, Roy Keane. And I'm thinking not one of them Manchester United has got any of the qualities of all the players I knew played for Man United, which you had to have to be a Man United player.

17:56You think of someone like Wayne Rooney in that situation last night and how Nazi would have been going to try to get them, drag them back into the game and everything. It just looked like, I mean, I know what I'm really saying because it just looked like players that really couldn't be bothered to do it for him. So you obviously wrote a very, what you now look at, a very prescient column a few days ago. Yeah. The headline was, what if United's biggest problem is Amarim? Yeah. Just tell us a bit about that. I mean, we're just leading to the players a bit there, but there is another kind of topic of discussion about the system and everything.

18:36It was about the fact that because Manchester United are a big club, it's always seen any problems that Manchester United are always seen through this lens. It's like a giant sort of, oh, it's about recruitment. It's about strategy. It's all these big, big problems that take five or six years to fix and to bring around. I was just asking the question or supposing if it's actually a smaller problem than that and it's the fact that a manager is not picking the right players or not picking the right shape for the players, he's absolutely wedded to his system and he doesn't appear to have the players to play that system and yet he never changes that system, never contemplates changing that system.

19:23and what if that is the problem? What if that there is actually a team you could pick at Manchester United? I know last night it didn't look like there was but what if there is a team that you can pick that could actually get results but it's not a team that plays 3-4-3 or 3-4-2-1 or whichever way you want to divide up the hammering way. It's not a team that plays three at the back. It's not a team that just leaves two people in the field where they constantly get overrun. It's not a team that has Fernandes playing deep where he has less influence on the game because the first few matches they've played this season, Fernandes isn't having the influence that he had last season because he was one of the players of the season.

20:07And I just looked at the penalty he took against Fulham. He took two penalties last night, scored them both. But the penalty he missed against Fulham and the big fuss he made when the referee just sort of got in each other's way a little bit. It was almost like he was sort of finding reasons to psych himself out almost. He didn't seem happy, didn't seem confident. He looked like a guy that wasn't enjoying his football. He's stuck alongside Casemiro, who's 33 and can't play for more than an hour, in this sort of deeper role. That doesn't seem right. and what if what it needs is a manager who's going to come in and go, right, these are the players we've got.

20:57Well, what we need to do is, and I'm not saying this is, you know, I'm not about to come up with a perfect formula here or whatever, but what we'll do is we'll play four at the back and it'll be these four. We might play five in midfield and it'll be these two people holding or whatever we'll do. and something that's different, something that is not Amman coming here and saying. He talks about his idea, singular. And that frightens the life out of me. I like the Carlo Ancelotti type manager that comes in and sees what players he's got and then decides how he plays. Thomas Frank has done that at Tottenham.

21:34You don't look how many times, so far this season already, Tottenham have changed their numbers and changed the way they're shaping up and stuff that played with so much more flexibility. The idea of sticking to something that you only believe is the way you can play. I mean, if you look at Russell Martin at Rangers and his whole game plan at Southampton was, we're playing this way no matter what. So you were prepared to say, have somebody in your team who's not so gifted on the ball. And I'll tell you a quick little story. And he's a good friend of mine. and it was when I joined Celtic and I didn't have a good time.

22:15I wasn't playing well. And after a game, Liam Brady had said something to me in front of the lads. And Liam said, you need to drop into midfield, come a bit deeper to set up the play a bit more often. And I said, well, that's not my game, Liam. I don't really do that. You know, I like to lead the line. I like to get on the back of defenders and attack the ball. And he went, so you telling me I've spent one, two minutes, this is all in front of the lads. Are you telling me I've spent$1.2 million on someone who can't do what I'm asking of them, to drop into midfield. Not to drop into midfield, but just come a little bit closer to the midfield.

22:49And I just said, that's not my strength. And he went to say something, and I said, well, Liam, it's like asking you to get at the far post and nod things down. And he looked at me to say, you know, like, I was out of order. That's, you know, I was out of order. I shouldn't have said that. But I didn't know how to answer it because I was trying to tell him, you're not good at that, Liam. You were a fantastic footballer gifted with a wonderful left foot. You had incredible vision. You saw passes and that was your game. But if you was to head the ball at far post and that was your job, you'd be hooked off every week.

23:18You know what I mean? I was trying to explain my point. And that's what I sometimes see with that Amerian idea where it's, you're asking players to do things. I mean, the two fullbacks last night were awful. And there's a young lad in one. I felt for Tyler, for Fredrickson as well. I felt for him because obviously it didn't work, but he also, it didn't work for him in how they were playing. But then you had Dogu on the left who kept, I'm sure he had a friend in the stand because he kept kicking it to him. But, you know, he's an established player. They paid a lot of money for him. Yeah. So if his formation is based on the two wide players.

23:54Yeah, and mine who looked lost. Mine who looked like a guy, he looked lost. And you're thinking, this kid came into an England team and everyone was impressed with him. Everyone thought, we've got one here. We found one here. That was a long time ago now. It was a long time. And I can remember, what was the game? They went down, it was the West Coast. Newport. Newport, you're right. Sorry, it's not the West, it's Wales. 4-2 and they play Newport and everyone's a little bit frit because it's not going well for them. and Mainu was head and shoulders, the coolest head on the pitch and really, really had a good game.

24:36And I know it's only Newport County, but it was a very pressured situation. It was very much like last night, apart from Manu. And he's the focus of attention now. His confidence must have taken a hit. Absolutely, absolutely. There's another question then about, you know, it's not long until the transfer window shuts. Let's talk about Garnaccio being sold to Chelsea. let's talk about Mino possibly even probably more likely on loan but you know you're shipping out young players because they don't really have a place in Amarim's system and now there's huge doubts about Amarim so like have you got to maybe put a pause put a break on these some of these decisions and think maybe as you say they're not the problem well you'd look at it wouldn't you and you'd look at that and think well really supposing he's gone in a couple of months and they've sold Mino they've lost Mino and he was this little jewel that they had coming through.

25:29Garnaccio the same. I mean, Liverpool backed off from that, didn't they? Because they were very worried that he was so wedded to this system and their technical people didn't think that that was a system that would suit Liverpool. No. And they knew he wouldn't change. So they thought, right, well, he's not the guy for us. So you can have You could walk into anything Can't you in life And you could go How many problems are there You might go Well there's five problems I think five major ones You might walk into Man United And go I think there's 20 So what's that list On that list Which are the highest Or the biggest problems you've got So you've got to solve them first Sometimes it's what's the easiest to solve too And as he said You can't change 22 players No you can't But they've gone It's quite clear They've identified Rashford as a major problem, okay?

26:24One of the top. He goes out on loan to Villa and now in Barcelona. They identified Garnaccio as one of the major problems. Anthony is a major problem. But there was probably about five or six that are in that category of big problems at the club. Now, from the outside, I'm always looking in and thinking, you have to sign players with the right attitude, mentality, technical ability, desire to play for the club, and no more. We're going to talk about Bowie in a bit later, but who at Manchester United could confront the fans? Ask yourself that question. Who could go to the fans and have a row with the fans?

27:04Everyone would be shy. Everyone would be walking away. You've got new signings who wouldn't go near it. You probably could go Harry Maguire might be able to because he's actually won over the United faithful, that he could go to confront them and just like, come on, we're in it together. sort of behavior but everyone else would be getting a lot of stick and they think they'd be afraid of that you know what Boeing did was and again we're talking a bit about that later was you know a real point in their season so go on then how do you see it unfurling what would you if you were a gambling man I know you're not you wouldn't be here as you always say but if you're a gambling man what happens next to you he looks like a guy that wants somebody to to tap him on the shelf I'm not even sure he wants to pay off.

27:47I'm not even sure he needs to tap on the shoulder. No. No, no, no. I mean... Well, he alluded to that last season, didn't he? You know, he alluded to it during the course of last season that, you know, if I am the problem, you know, there are managers... But three games in after what was certainly spun as a positive pre-season where the vibes were suddenly good and, you know, and even though they haven't won a game in the Premier League at the start of the season, they're, you know, they've done pretty well against Arsenal and they started well against Fulham we looked at it and thought they looked but three games in three games in and we're having this discussion again well because three games in and I mean last night's result I mean you said it in the you said it in the intro I mean they've never lost to a fourth division fourth tier team they've never lost to one now there's been Sharks but they've never lost to a team at Greensbury's level and that that says something because you didn't think there were so many times last night when it went to 2-1 you're thinking right well you know I'd win this and and and then when it goes to 2-2 you're thinking they might actually win this in 90 minutes this could be a this could be a sort of crushing blow here they've got five more minutes to score the third one and and then the penalty shootout started and you're thinking right well this is United all day you know in the penalty shootout and the longer it goes on and the longer it goes on, you're then thinking, well, surely someone on Grimsby is going to miss this.

29:17And I was talking to Danny Finkelstein, and Danny, you know, was doing, you know, statistical analysis or whatever, you know, a long time before it became fashionable. And he said, the minute it went round again, he was watching it with one of his sons, and he said, you know, I could lose this. He said, because statistically, you only score 80 % of your penalties and they're above that in their first, you know, because they've scored 10 out of the 11. They're working at better than 80%. He said, so statistically they're due a miss. They're due a miss and the miss came quite early, you know. The miss came quite early.

29:59No, look, they're playing Burnley at home, right. You'd put your house on Manchester United at home to Burnley under normal circumstances, but you would have put your house for Manchester United at Grimsby last night. So you just don't know anymore. Yeah, there's been a few players who've wanted to get out of United. That's rare in itself, isn't it? There's been a few players over the last year or so. And maybe the manager is wanting to get out of United as well. This has been well documented before about people from Pogba and others. Well, huge problems at Manchester United. But huge congratulations to my old club, Grimsby Town.

30:35Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Massive congratulations. You still got mates there? I have yeah the assistant manager was someone I played with along at my time at the club big Manchester United fan as well actually yeah but a goalkeeper was as well yeah that was a great comment wasn't it I'm fuming actually yeah he should have given his telephone number out yeah no great scenes great scenes and huge congratulations anyway still loads more to come including Liverpool's cracker of a 3-2-1 against Newcastle and the issues at West Ham United but yeah, Martin, you're waving your kazoo around. I've got the kazoo.

31:11What have you got of your sleeve? You better get it because I ain't going to get it. No, no, no. I've done this one to you, Tony. You wanted popular hits of the 70s, didn't you? Right, okay. Yeah, okay. We'll try this. We'll try it. I haven't actually practised any of it at all, to be honest with you. I can't even think I've got the thing right. Here we go, right? One, two, three. See, this is not working. I've just lost the tissue paper. That's it. It's all over. Forget it. What was it anyway? It was going to be, I heard it through the grapevine. Oh, Marvin Gaye. What a great shame.

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32:40Welcome back to the game podcast from the times I'm Greg Robertson with Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino Before the break we asked you the quiz quiz It's a terrible show You don't get much for two and a half quid these days Okay, on to St James's Park A thriller. Another thriller. Cass, it's not much better than seeing a 16-year-old announce himself on the stage like that. Yeah, it's, you know, you see players, I spent enough time in football playing with young lads who get an opportunity, and they literally are running up and down the line trying to get the manager to put them on. Then they go on and then they do something, and it's just, yeah, it was extraordinary.

33:24I mean, the weird thing about the goal was Salah hadn't had much impact on the game. But he does this a lot where because he hits the ball first time across the box towards Saba's eye, he lets it go for his legs. And then it's a chance. He buries brilliantly, by the way. But, you know, Salah doing that type of ball first time. If he takes a touch, they don't get that opportunity. That's the whole thing with Salah is that that's why you have to keep him on. But it really did get Liverpool out of jail on the night. I thought Newcastle were really good. Liverpool were stuttering and they were finding a hard deal with long balls and anything behind them seemed to get Newcastle in.

34:07You know, with 10 men, Newcastle was sensational with 10 men. It looked like Liverpool had 10. But it's a massive three points for them because Liverpool are going to have to be a lot better than they've been, not just in that game, but the opening two games so far this season. We know they're going to get goals, Gregor. Oh, aren't they? There's not even a debate whether Liverpool will score. we know they're going to get enough goals during the course of the season to be champions but they won't concede in two week in week out which at the moment they look like they're going to do well it was an emotionally charged night at St James' Park Alexander Isak Saga loomed large over the game and Martin Hardy the Times North East football correspondent was there Martin great to have you on first of all tell us what the atmosphere was like at St James' Park given Liverpool's lengthy pursuit of Alexander Isak and how much that kind of dominated the build-up to the game.

34:58Right, well, we've got five minutes to try and encapsulate the madness of 120-odd years of Newcastle United and the last two months of hell if you're a journalist or you care a slight amount about North East football in Newcastle United. The thing is, because in theory, Alexander is like, well, he is still a Newcastle player because he could, in theory, play for the club again. The supporters cannot quite turn that growing sense of fury towards the player. You had a bank holiday Monday, which people in the North East do sometimes spend a little bit of time in a public house. It was a really, really warm day.

35:32So the atmosphere was absolutely electric and you were comparing it to the Paris Saint-Germain game and the Arsenal Carabao Cups semi-final last season. But in terms of a one-off Premier League game, that in reality didn't mean that much. It was an incredible atmosphere, even for those that have been going to the stadium for a very long time. a lot of frustration from the supporters was just pointed at the pitch some of it was pointed at Liverpool fans but it was also given as a huge back into Newcastle's players and it created this incredible atmosphere on the night absolutely electric Was it too electric?

36:06Were the players affected? I heard Jamie Carragher's argument to say at half time they need to cool it a little bit I think they just about got the balance right it was just an awful awful tackle from Anthony Gordon and if you watch him he's chasing what 70 yards to go from left back to left side of centre half and just makes a really really bad challenge and a bad decision uh if without that support i think liverpool win that game quite comfortably and at the same time you cannot say to supporters who are absolutely furious at the way alexander is that has behaved this summer also probably upset at the fact that the club has not done what it was supposed to do in the transmogged you cannot say that the suppose right just turn the volume down a bit can everyone stay calm we need you to be a little bit composed otherwise I also think that a 2-0 you're sitting in the press box everyone's going this could be 3-4 and from there Gamera scores a great header and the ground just stirs to life again and carries the team the one thing you may be able to present an argument with is that if you have 10 men and you equalize in the 88th minute to make it 2-2 you do not need your players to run into the Liverpool goal to grab the ball and restart the game so quickly as about three of them were doing they're fighting to get the ball it's like at that point somebody probably needed to say this is a fantastic point against the champions calm down but by the same tone for numerous reasons injuries Liverpool were delaying the game quite a lot sends off in the 88th minute when Asula equalized there was still 13 minutes of that game to go and as somebody said to me last night and you cast my I knew Liverpool would score an injury time and I said well I didn't and then they went well they've done it three times before and I was at all three games in 95-96 Collie Moore 96-97 Fowler so perhaps they know something I didn't as a journalist you know yourself I don't expect violence from our listeners a thousand word match report is quite a challenge amidst that chaos and in the 99th minute and bear in mind I must add that this may sum up Newcastle at the minute signing the press box they were showing on the TV monitors they were show in the Wrexham game which was not a great deal of help for those seeking replays and then after five minutes the TVs went off and he thought that just sums this place up at the minute so in the 99th minute having filed I was not expecting a 16 year old who I'd barely heard off to ping one in the top corner to me a 3-2 and end this dramatic night.

38:34No there's something pretty special about meetings between these two clubs for sure just um you mentioned it was such a gutsy display and you know understand the performance with 10 men but injuries to Joe Ellington to Sandro Tonali Newcastle already without a recognised striker Lee Zaksaga obviously Eddie Howe cannot keep drawing performances like this like for the rest of the season without reinforcements how important are the next few days for Newcastle well we hear Tonali might not be quite so bad okay you're gonna miss Anthony going for three games through I think over impetuousness stroke real stupidity but at the same time Malik Chow came on amidst that bedlam and did well as the right side of centre-half the signing from AC Milan to replace Fabian Scher you still have Sven Bottmann sitting there as the left side of centre-half who can't get a game because Dan Byrne is just playing it's like every single Newcastle fan put together and here there is an embodiment in this giant on the pitch who will give everything he has and a bit more for the club Joel Lytton we'll wait and see but Jacob Ramsey who was another signer from Aston Villa came on and did well in that chaos.

39:41Willis Sule is the gamble who I think will probably have to play at Leeds because there is nobody left and they have tried and tried and it maybe sums up the season and the fact that recruitment this summer has been really poor. Eight bids, the eighth bid for a striker went in yesterday, the day before yesterday for Stroud and Larsson. And obviously it failed like all the others. To not have any form of replacement in for now or for Callum Wilson, never mind Alexander Isaac on August the 28th is really really poor a lot leads to be looked at at the club once this window shuts because they've got certain things wrong this summer they will scratch a team together at Leeds which will actually still look alright but what as you say one or two more injuries and then it's like right hang on we are down to the bones here Just finally then Martin what's the latest on Isaac there were reports that he had a meeting with members of the club's board still wants out how do you see the next four or five days unfurlowing?

40:41I won't quote myself and I don't have the line here from the piece that Paul Joyce and myself did about in the Times in print this morning and online yesterday the dominoes that need to fall from conversations yesterday Alexander Izzak has no desire whatsoever to ever play for Newcastle United again and that has not budged one inch from all the conversations from senior people inside the club his head has been turned he knows financially what he can earn at Liverpool out is miles better than what he can get in Newcastle and there is also the fact that he wants to play for a competitive Champions League team not one that is the Champions League is a novelty that comes around every now and then he is not for budging now whether that means it's January as we saw Liverpool as chase for Virgil van Dijk a couple of years ago that is my feeling from telephone conversations yesterday that this hitting the backside drama may rumble on through September, October, November, December.

41:41Newcastle have to get one striker through the door for there to be the slight suggestion of an unlocking of this transfer. As of yesterday, they can't get the right figure for Larson. Vista seems to go cool and those two players were seen as replacements for Callum Wilson. Eke Tike, Jao Pedro and Cesc Olo, to be fair, he didn't cover himself in glory last night, were seen as the players that were potentially replacements for Isaac. None have come. And as it stands, Newcastle, I don't think we'll let Isaac go, even though he is as desperate as ever to get out. One signing may start to unlock stuff, but they haven't made that signing yet.

42:18Well, we can keep up to the date with all the latest on the Times website. Martin Hardy, thank you very much for joining us. Martin, Liverpool have snatched victory, if not from the jaws of defeat, they've certainly snatched them from somewhere in their first two games. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's not been a hugely convincing start for them, has it? No, it's always difficult, isn't it, getting that number of players into a team. No matter how good you are, no matter how good the players are. I mean, Florent Wurz looks like he's going to take a little while to adapt to English football. You know, he's clearly a player.

42:55but it's, you know, the intensity of the Premier League is quite unique. There's no doubt about that. You can look back at some of the Premier League's biggest success stories and it took a while for a lot of them. Didier Drogba's first season, Yap Stam's first season. Varun never got going, did he? Yeah, absolutely. And, you know, guys come over that end up being very, very good Premier League players. Michael Ballack even. Outstanding Premier League players. But their first season, people are looking at him going, oh. It's not really. Yeah, yeah, yeah, maybe. Yeah, absolutely. He wasn't sensational like he became.

43:38No. And so, you know, Florian Wurtz could be a Kevin De Bruyne. You don't know. But, well, Kevin De Bruyne, that's another classic example. He didn't play for Chelsea as he played for Manchester City because Jose Mourinho is not an idiot. He doesn't let Kevin De Bruyne go if he's turning in the performances. He turned in for Manchester City. So there's all sorts of players that when you first saw them, they found it difficult. Verts seems to be finding it difficult. Liverpool seem to, Eketike's hit the ground running, but I mean, quite tongue-in-cheek in the week when I wrote it in the column, but if Newcastle really wanted to mess Liverpool up, they could always sell him Isaac and then go, right, okay, now let's try and adapt to that one, right?

44:25Because you've got to move Ekotik out of the position that he's actually looking very good in and you can't put him where Salah's playing and you probably don't want to put him where Verts is playing so you've got to put him on that left, which pushes Gakpo out. And also Rio, the new sensation or whatever, suddenly he's third in line. You know, it's difficult. It's difficult getting that many new faces into a team. We spoke with Martin Hardy there about how charged the atmosphere was and how up for it Newcastle were urged to be and were. Martin didn't think it went too far. Do any of you think it went a bit too far?

45:10What, the performance on the pitch? Newcastle were almost playing with their heart a bit more than their head. Well, I mean, look, Arnie Slott in his press conference said there wasn't much tactical stuff that went on out there, and he had a point. But certainly some games are going to be thunder, you know, up against each other, battling for everything. And Andy Gordon gets red carded. He was clearly up for it because for the first 20 minutes, he was covering every blade of glass. He could. But it was like that in the midfield area. You know, Liverpool made a tactical stop with putting Slobbertshire on the right.

45:44They avoided putting Bradley in from the start, didn't they? You know, and... Or Fringpom obviously wasn't there. But, you know, they sort of changed and adapted. But Newcastle felt like they knew they could get Liverpool. They'd watched the Bournemouth game, which always happens. You know, you get... Some clubs watch a game. Again, going back to West Ham later, I sort of looked at Graham and Potter when they played Chelsea and they'd watched our Palace have played against Chelsea involved, we'll do the same thing because that's how they nullified them. And I felt like Newcastle sort of knew how Bournemouth hurt Liverpool, that we're going to do the same thing.

46:20We're going to really put pressure on them. We're going to use fast attacks, which they did brilliantly, Newcastle. So it was sweat and blood, wasn't it? That's what it was like, the game. It was an incredible game to watch. The pace of it from the start to finish was extraordinary. Huge game against Arsenal. at the weekend? Well, Arsenal fancy it. Yeah, I was going to say, how do you see that going? Yeah, well, Arsenal, I would think, would look at Liverpool the other night and think, well, we could call, now, they've got no Saka, Odegaard is touch and go, isn't it? I mean, they think he might, they think he might be fit, we're not certain yet.

47:00But, even without Saka, though, Eze to come in, they might be looking at Liverpool and thinking, we could have a go here. We could, And it would be big. You know, three points at Anfield, whatever stage of the season, would be big. And it's a chance. There's no doubt about that. It's a chance for them. I'm pretty much, it's guaranteed that it's going to be feisty on the benches and it's going to be like that on the pitch. That's a guarantee. They're going to make it as high tempo as they can. Arsenal will look for set pieces. They'll look to try and get behind with pace. I mean, Canate has to defend better.

47:37for the second goal. I was seeing a 6 '4", 6 '5", centre-half who gets literally caught with his flat-footed and he can't jump. He's had a tough start to the season, hasn't he? Yeah, he's had a tough start. You know, he has. And Virgil's not been as... You know, we know what a quality player he is. But Liverpool have to be in that position. Gerke's got done on the far post, not only for the Gimenez goal, but he got done a few times on that far post area, which I wouldn't be surprised if Robertson comes back in for the weekend on that left side interesting I wouldn't be surprised I mean because I think I think he's found it hard his sort of first few games at Liverpool it's been difficult for him finally Martin you've written two very prescient columns this week really I mean you know I mean the West Ham column was written after they got beat 5-1 at home to Chelsea it was hardly clairvoyance it got worse in the intervening days the headline The headline was West Ham have eight days to save their season.

48:38Fail and they are down. That was written on Monday. Clearly it's now down to, what, four or five days. Yeah, yeah. But you believe it's that serious for them? Oh, I think it's absolutely that serious. I mean, kudos to Tony because he called West Ham as bottom three before the season started. So, yeah, I think it's absolutely that serious. They look by some distance the poorest Premier League team I've seen so far this season. Does that include the promoted teams? Yeah, that would include the promoted teams. Because what the promoted teams have got, all of them, is every single one of them won their first match at home.

49:18West Ham's first match at home, they got beat 5-1. There's a remarkable stat about they've conceded five or more goals seven times at the London Stadium, and they'd only done so twice at Upton Park. Yeah. I mean, look, there's a lot of stuff talked about at Upton Park. I mean, you know, I grew up watching West Ham. I saw us get relegated at Upton Park plenty of times. And, you know... So you don't think the stadium... It always comes up, doesn't it? It only ever comes up when West Ham... When West Ham are getting beat, the London Stadium comes up. And then when West Ham start winning, everyone goes, oh, fantastic atmosphere.

49:5460 ,000 people going nuts against Sevilla. So, look, I'm not having it about the stadium. Stadiums don't win football matches. Players win football matches and intelligent tactics. That's all the stuff that wins football matches. Probably owners, directors of football, these guys have a say too and it's not been good for them for a long time. No, I mean, West Ham, Tim Stighton did a fantastic job at West Ham if you're a Millwall fan. you know he did a fabulous job because I don't know what the the spec was for the midfield players but you know you know is he slow we like him slow you know because I've never known a team buy more slow buy a slower midfield you know you already had Suchek now Suchek's effective he's slow but he's effective so you've got to have pace around him you've got to have pace around him he's effective from dead balls and a lot of what he does in the game is I think James Gibran wrote a piece about him last week about what a unique player he is and how unique his numbers are and everything like that because he's got a great scoring record never makes an assist which for a midfield player is quite strange but you need legs around him Alvarez who's gone out to Fenerbahce made this point in the column came back from the Gold Cup, CONCACAF Gold Cup, player of the tournament.

51:27So everyone who's watching him at West Ham is thinking, how do bloody hell does he want to play out of the tournament? He's been part of the problem at West Ham for about a year now because he's slow. You look at the team, the Mexico team, he's got a 16-year-old kid next to him. He's got the equivalent of Mexico's flying machine. He's got the youngest goal scorer in Liga MX and the youngest assist. At West Ham, he's got no pace around him. So it doesn't matter how well you read in the game, no one's putting enough pressure on the opposition. No one's actually making the runs that you need. It's the most disjointed team.

52:13What about Graham Potter then? Where does he fit into all this? Because he's got the second worst win percentage of any manager after Avram Graham. After I found Garn. And West Ham went down with that from Garn. You know, West Ham went sleepwalking into the championship. Mate, it's... That's why you look at it, and you can't see... Look, Graham Potter has brought in a goalkeeper, and West Ham have conceded in the league now, what was it? Eight goals in their first two matches in the league, and at least three or four of them are down to the goalkeeper. As Tony was saying the other day, if you buy a goalkeeper, you want him to make a save early on.

52:54It's a bit more problematic if he slings three or four in in his first two games because, you know, the big sarcastic cheer that there was when he caught one or whatever against Chelsea late in the game, he takes his simple... Don't need that either, do you? And there was 60 ,000 or about 28 people that were left in the ground by that stage. There was this big sarcastic cheer. You don't want that. When I watched the game on Friday night and I saw the West Ham line-up and how they were set up, I thought straight away, well, he's definitely going off for Crystal Palace, which I said earlier. He's going off for what Crystal Palace did against Chelsea the week before.

53:29The problem was that Crystal Palace had Walton and had players like Hughes in midfield who get around the pitch. Absolutely. So you can have that system as long as your midfield can run around, chase hard, press, make it difficult for the opposition. They quickly found out they had to go back to a back four at half-time because that... And I'm thinking, how did you not think before the game that maybe my midfield might suffer here against Chelsea, who have Caicedo, Fernandes, who was the third one. I'm trying to think of the third one in there on the day because Palmer came off injured, didn't he?

54:03Anyway... Yeah, Eschla Valle. Yeah, you know, so you know that they've got legs. And once Chelsea scored, it was literally, how many? You're watching it going, how many is this going to be? Is it going to be three, four, five? It could have been more than five, couldn't it? But Chelsea had the game won and in the end decided to take the last 15 minutes off, basically. You know, there are lots of things you can criticise. You can, of course, you can criticise players for their performances, individual mistakes, goalkeeper, you know, flapping at one and it ends up in your back end. All them things.

54:36And the capitulation. Yeah, and the capitulation. But you can also say, is the manager responsible for the formation? and the formation clearly didn't work. That's why you changed it half times. Are we kind of in the same boat here as United in that we're just saying that fundamentally, unless there's like a change at the top, then probably you're in the same cycle. Yeah. Well, look, see, part of the problem is that I think, say with the stadium, because we mentioned the stadium earlier and you know what I think with the stadium, but what people thought West Ham would get out of the stadium is they wouldn't have to sell their best players anymore.

55:21And since West Ham have moved to the stadium, they've sold Declan Rice to Arsenal and Kudus now to Tottenham. Now, there's a bit of retro stuff going on with Kudus because he didn't have a good season last season and a load of West Ham fans, oh, get him out of the club, get him out of the club, get him. Now they've got him out of the club and he's playing for Tottenham the way he played for West Ham in his first season there. Now everyone's, oh, this should never happen. But the bottom line is that was not meant to happen. You know, West Ham were meant to get to that situation where they didn't lose their best players as a matter of course.

56:03And so in the end, that's why you get this backlash against the stadium. from Tokyo. It's like, well, we might just well have stayed at Upton Park. I don't agree with that. People get it wrong. People think they moved to the London Stadium to try to become Manchester United or whatever. They didn't. They moved from London Stadium to stop themselves from becoming Queen's Park Rangers. But, you know, which is what, you know, because Arsenal had suddenly got a 60 ,000 capacity stadium. Tottenham were heading for a 60 ,000 capacity stadium. Chelsea will get a 60 ,000, you know, don't know when, but they'll get it.

56:35And so West Ham were just going to fall further and further behind. But where are they in a Conor Gallagher situation at the moment? Where, you know, Atletico Madrid look as if they'll sell Gallagher. He's going possibly to Crystal Palace. Where's West Ham in that? He's exactly the sort of player that West Ham need. He's exactly the sort of thing that West Ham should be going for. 25, is he, Conor, now? Legs in midfield. I'm not saying he's the greatest technical footballer. He's not Trevor Brookin or whatever. But he's what West Ham need. But they're not. West Ham wouldn't think they could rival Crystal Palace at the moment.

57:16So how has that happened? They're talking about getting somebody out of Nottingham Forest because Nottingham Forest have got Douglas Luiz. You think, well... Sangari. Yeah, Sangari. So where would they go for Douglas Luiz? Yeah. Why aren't they competing? why are they trying to get the guy that can't get in the team now that Nottingham Forest have signed Douglas Luiz where were they for Douglas Luiz? Because they see a dysfunctional club. Yeah. This would appear to be the answer to the question. Well, as fortunate we'd have it they're travelling to Nottingham Forest on Sunday for a tricky game.

57:53No, but I'm always very sort of reluctant to turn it into West Ham fan TV basically. No, no, it's a big issue at the moment. Because it is an issue. Yeah, it's extraordinary how the season can unravel after three games. We said that about Manchester United and it's the same about West Ham United. They've been quite redundant, haven't they? That's what they've done. You know, they've got their fingers burnt with people like Skamaka that came in and others, full crew. And, you know, they've made major signings that haven't paid huge dividends for them. We'll be back on Monday. We know everything.

58:23Oh, it's Sunday. Did you see it about you? You'll remember this song. Forest Fire by Lloyd Cole and the commotions yeah absolutely that's a pretty fire if we ever get the kazoo up and running again you know if we can ever find a piece of tissue paper we'll do that one we'll be back on Monday as always to review that game and Liverpool Arsenal and all the best of the action we'll see you then

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