Nervy Nervy Arsenal - Is it happening again?

0:04Hello and welcome to The Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times second again. Ole, That was the chant of Wolves fans as Arsenal threw away a two-goal lead and showed those now infamous first-place nerves. Surely it can't happen again, can it? On today's show, we'll discuss that match, the psychology of leading and chasing at the top, and look ahead to the North London derby and the rest of the weekend's action. We'll also review the midweek Champions League stories as Newcastle thrashed Carabag and discuss the fallout of the troubling racism allegations in Benfica. I'm Tom Clarke, and joining me today we have the former Ireland Marseille and Chelsea striker Tony Cascarino.

0:40The football reporter who covers clubs in London, as well as the women's game is Kit Shepard. And the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is here as usual, team. We're back again. Ole, ole. You love this song. I've realised it's the best and simplest chant in football. It works for anything. Kit's on again. Ole, ole. Tone's here again. Ole, ole. Gregor's here again. Ole, ole. Like, it's perfect. It's perfect. Anyway, these were the chants at the end of a remarkable game. I was in the Times editing office last night. And I mean, you could see it coming. You could really see it coming.

1:13Always in these situations, you've got kind of back page of the print edition ready. You're getting the website ready. Will Arsenal cling on a bit nervy? How are we framing this? And oh my God, they've scored. They have scored. Gregor, your reaction to that madness at the end, if you like, because we're going to talk about it as a bigger picture in a minute, but that was not a good look for Arsenal. The team with the greatest defense in Europe, brilliant talisman at the back, a keeper coming for a cross with no Wolves players anywhere near him the captain and centre-back Gabriel not heading it away that's not a good look that's terrible defending at the very start isn't it?

1:47Yeah it was calamitous stuff really and as you say not something that you've come to associate with Arsenal I'd actually say the scenes afterwards were almost more sort of telling the rage on Gabriel's face and the way he walked off down the tunnel looking like he wanted to punch a hole through a door or whatever and then a bit more fight yeah more fight in that yeah Jesus kind of getting up in in the opposition players face and like then a bit of a coming together there was more fight in that he almost thought than there was in much of the game and like I still come you know we were talking about this before we came on here I still think like without that moment you're talking about a game that Arsenal didn't play well and they got the result and it was a self-inflicted wound and I still don't think Arsenal need to be Arsenal unlike any other club it seems in terms of the ease of which they sort of descend into absolute turmoil and crisis mode looking at the run of games they've won they've lost 1 of 20 in all comps they've won 15 of those games if you look at the Premier League only yes it's two wins in seven and they'll defeat against Manchester United they're finding a way of like letting teams back into games or just not getting over the line and it does look like which was the point in this game 1-0 up after five minutes again you know then 2-0 Wolves came back into the game but then they get 2-0 and we're all going right you know I've talked about narratives of how we're going to sell the story Buenos goal was a great goal from a corner it's a left-sided defender who hovered on the right again and the ball was worked back across them.

3:36Could someone have come out and closed them down? Maybe, but he was on the outside edge of the box. Great finish. Great finish. Don't think Ryan can save it at all. No, it's a great goal. It's a great goal. That's a moment that you can't really legislate for. And then in the end, there's a massive blunder. Again, it's self-inflicted. So everyone will now be saying, is this nerves? Are they wobbling? Are they panicking? We've seen it again. And you look at the run and you look at that in isolation and you go yeah you look at the Brentford game but I said that Brentford is one of if not the hardest place to go in the Premier League at the moment it's an absolute nightmare they're the one team that can match Arsenal physically and are almost better than them at a set of plays even if the numbers don't kind of bear that out yeah that's fine we said that on Monday Wolves are bottom what about that okay what was it Rob Edwards came up with after he said I think they've lost three in the last 11 we're not actually doing that bad he has elicited at a second form.

4:30Come on, Arsenal's one of me champions. Wolves are born. Everyone's describing Wolves as one of the worst teams in Premier League history. They won't go down as that. No, and listen, I think Wolves played really well. Really well. Anyway, let's bring you... Second half they did. They did second half. First half Arsenal were really comfortable. Yeah. And just to add to Gregor's point about, you know, the goal, which was a great strike, but they've been beaten by a few great strikes. Obviously, Dorku, from Magic Knight, and Kunja in that game. You go back to Shabozlai's effort when Liverpool beat Arsenal 1-0.

5:01It was a great strike. So they've had things happen. I personally feel that Arteta is the one driving force. He's got a big advantage over Pep Guardiola. And that is he knows City. He knows the club. He knows the manager. He'll know the team talks. He'll know the coaching sessions going on during the week. Now, you could argue and go, well, Pep knows Arteta. But he doesn't know Arteta as the manager. he knows him as the coach that coached the team while he was there and they were successful I started thinking last night as the game was going I kept thinking when Liverpool now if we go if we think it's a two-horse race and we go it's City and Arsenal they're going to fight for the title Villa fans will still think they've got a great chance well Villa and Man City play each other the last game of the season but anyway there was one season where Liverpool got 97 points and City got 98 where they just both kept getting wins They're just beating everybody.

5:59This season's not like that. City haven't done that, nor have Arsenal. They haven't beaten everybody there. It feels like they're just going to go win, win, win. So in the running, it's going to be a lot on Arteta how he manages this period, because they have an advantage of him knowing what they need to do. They also have an advantage of, I think they've got more home games than away games. They're running if you want to go on paper and say, what's this tricky? City have got way more difficult, in my opinion, running than Arsenal. Well, we'll come on to the run-ins in a second. But I mean, coming back to this night, you two seem to be going down the kind of calm down, no panic route.

6:32I have a slightly different take, but Kit, bringing you in first before I give my view. I think I would probably be in the middle of panic and not panic at all. But I do think the greatest sitting on the fence, I do mean just the chain of events that happened did kind of create this sense of, oh, no, everything's going wrong for Arsenal. In this game specifically. Yeah, just like all the little things like it. In fact, it was pouring of rain. The fact that we've talked about the first goal, the second goal was just comedic. The way it went in kind of off the post and off Califuri. The scenes at full time where suddenly the camera pans to, I can't remember which wall someone was on the floor and there was some sort of melee going on.

7:10It just all kind of, that sort of five minutes just screamed of Arsenal are losing control here. And I don't know if this is just a thing that's inevitable when there's a team that's not won a title in ages and they're in a really close tight race and they're not quite sure they can get over the line because they haven't done it before or if there is something inherently arsenal-ish about this whether it's they're catastrophizing fans whether it's the fact that really for 20 years now are still being a bit soft or that's been a stereotype at least like they will fall over themselves um and yeah when you see those scenes after last night you are you are leaning more into that category of, oh, no, this is an Arsenal thing happening again.

7:56However, I do agree with Tony. I think we've naturally assumed, oh, City will win every game now. We're looking at the table and assuming, oh, it's in City's hands, and they'll win every game, they'll win the title. We've seen enough this season. Some of the games they've lost or even drawn that they're going to drop points to. We'll come on to that City idea in a second. But I do think we're being a bit kind to Arsenal here. I was watching, I've been, I would like Arsenal to win the title for a sake of difference, if nothing else, three different title winners on the spin. I've said that before.

8:21But watching this game last night was the first time I thought, there is something in this Arsenal team. And I know Wolves played well in the second half. Wolves have been good of late. They've shown some improvements. But you're top of the table, 2-0 up. You either kill that game or you win 3-0. You don't draw that game 2-2. Because you should be thinking surely about the Brentford game and going, OK, that then becomes a good point if we win this game. That's four points from six. you're like, oh, okay, fine. We're being a bit kind to them here, aren't we? There was a stat last night. This is the first time in Premier League history a team top of the table has let a two-goal lead slip against a team in the relegation zone.

9:00I'm just talking, before we get into big picture and fixture run-ins and stuff and City aren't good enough, this was a massive failing by Arsenal and I think by Mikel Arteta. You're talking about Arteta. You've got this squad. They didn't look like they were going to kill this game. The game was killed, but then they got a great strike and then that's when you can say their reaction after going to 2-1 that's what you can allude to before that Tom they were very comfortable in the game but go 3-1 then yeah exactly but that's on our tether before the equalising goal I can't remember who it was but they were just like booting the ball clear and a colleague of mine who's an Arsenal fan was sat in the office having to watch it and endure it with all those neutrals going oh my god and he's going what are you doing like who are you giving that ball to that is pure panic isn't it and that's where you start to go this honestly I'm only saying after watching the whole game last night I start to go there is something in this group of players and you see it then with the reaction afterwards Jesus pushing team pushing players on the floor people storming around like oh gosh you know I think you can find that if you want to find it like I understand and like in in seasons gone by Arsenal have have wilted at this time of year I just think if you look in isolation at this run they started the goal was strong against Liverpool Liverpool produced their best half of a performance all season really out of nowhere and that wasn't a bad point they went to Nottingham Forest and they had 15 chances I think like 2 points something expected goals like I don't know how they didn't score in that game the Man United game as we said there were moments and like yeah they weren't good they were again uncharacteristically kind of open at moments or gave gifted chances to the opposition and weren't able to see their advantage through.

10:49But then they responded, they went to Leeds and won 4-0. They beat Sunderland 3-0. Two teams were doing alright. And the Brentford game was a hard game. This is their worst performance of the season in isolation. And you can look at that run and think, yeah, are they doing it again? I'm just not convinced yet. I still think that Arsenal are the best team in the league. And more importantly, I think you're looking at who can catch them and it's not the same it's not the same landscape anymore it's not everyone's going oh you know there was that that kind of graphic last night between how many points Manchester City have won under Pep Guardiola like from this point on the last Tavernman games of the season and how many Arsenal have and it's like it's ridiculous City win 30 odd points every year between now and the season and Arsenal were like 15, 18 things like that it's not the same Man City team I'm happy to be proven wrong at the end of the season because how many seasons now for how many seasons have i said city always come they always come i don't think they're going to come this year i think that maybe something that is in city's favor though i think it's irrelevant to last night but also the running is it was really interesting that rob edwards said just came out and said we know there's a lot of pressure on arsenal they kind of said it very explicitly and then they kind of preyed on that and there does seem to be maybe it's just among fans of tony and craig will be able to speak better from like inside dressing rooms.

12:12But I'd say like the general view, certainly of fans is, it would be quite funny if Arsenal bottled it again. Obviously non-Arsenal fans, that is. No, I agree. All my mates are the same. They're like posting all the bottle gifs and everything like that. And that chan last night, that second again, Ole Ole kind of placed out. The Wolves fans, like that point means nothing to Wolves. It was like, oh, it's funny. Wolves are getting relegated and they're like, ha ha, brilliant second again, Ole Ole. It was probably the best atmosphere in Molyneux for ages. I don't think, yeah. I think if you put City in that situation last night, I don't think they'd be quite that same.

12:44I don't think Rob Edwards is coming out and saying, we know there's loads of pressure on City and implying that we're preying on that. I don't think the Wolves fans saying, oh, we made City bottle the league or anything like that. Living in London, you meet a lot of opposition fans, don't you? You meet lots of Arsenal fans, Tottenham, you meet just generally because there's so many teams. And you come away and some of the lazy comments of, you know, just like they've bottled it. I agree I mean come on I agree it's like it's easy yeah it's also like it's easy like that's modern fandom I totally understand that but we're all saying this even the way you were describing the game there you just win that game 3-1 don't you you turn the point against Brentford into a good point because you go and win this game it's not easy it's not that easy no one gives you anything they're playing in the sleet at Molyneux in like I'm going to have to call time on the second weather mention grow up everyone it's a bit you looked at that game you looked at that game last night you're Scottish come on you looked at that game last night and you saw them all all the players like soaked to the bone in freezing conditions Arteta so were the Wolves players I know they were but I'm just saying this is another part of being a Premier League player and trying to win the Premier League title you have to overcome other sort of circumstances and part of it is what Kit is saying what they now need to overcome is this impression that everyone else has that Arsenal are bottlers so whether they are or not it's almost irrelevant they need to overcome that perception so how does that work in a dressing room then because will that feed into it sorry I was going to say I joined later Villa because I came in the old window when they were challenging for the title back in 1990 and I joined with 10 games to go so I did get a medal if they'd have won it so I joined and they were top and I took them second you always take responsibility I know, I know, I know.

14:37You really should. But I remember that run-in like yesterday because every game was so detailed. Under Graham Taylor, my first game there, Derby County away. And I just remember, we won 1-0 at the old Pride Park. And you could just feel that drive. And when I walked in the dressing room and just, it was so optimistic. But as the moment you dropped points and we then played QPR away and we dropped two points and then had a draw at home to Norwich in the run-in and things fell away quite quickly. But it wasn't, as Gregor was saying, it was never like, we could just turn up, we'll win, we'll do the game.

15:11You know, you have to be an exceptional team. You have to be a champion. That's the point. But also, there's things that come into play during games as well. You know, there could be decisions. You could be injuries that play a part. I'm not defending Arsenal. Don't say the weather. No, and the weather. Yeah, no. Look, let's make it real. Arsenal have had an incredible season on all fronts. Okay. They're still top. Never would have they swapped where they are. You know, if you'd have gone start season, they'd be top with 11 games to go, five-point lead, OKC have got a game in hand, and it would all be doom and gloom.

15:46This is the job of Arteta now to try and really lift the club to go to a London derby against a Tottenham side and they're for the taking. Now, if the big if, if this weekend they get a very negative, then I think the pressure will mount. So he's got a really big three or four days going into that London derby. And then I think there's a break, isn't there? How much of it is about this season and City then? We touched on it before as well. Arsenal's 58 points is the fewest the Premier League leaders have had after 27 games since Leicester in 2015-16. Now, I'm not someone who's like, oh, well, Leicester only won it because everyone was crap.

16:22Leicester's achievement was amazing. Absolutely brilliant. Anyone who wins the league deserves to. It's amazing. But how much of what we're talking about is because we think when we look at these run-ins, everyone's going to take points off everyone so are you looking at Manchester City at home to Newcastle on Saturday night everyone's now going like City are going to win that pile the pressure on Arsenal before the North London derby on Sunday are you going Anthony Gordon's going to score four again ole ole and you know it's not easy City could turn up and blow them away really impressive and then everyone goes oh are they going to come but we've seen City be like that this season and then have drop-offs.

17:00They're not as consistent as they were. The whole league this season is more fallible. It's more flawed. Everyone has flaws. That makes for an exciting end to the season. It's hard to predict. I still think Arsenal will be the most consistent. That's why I think they'll win the league. And I know they're having a wobble just now. But I personally think they'll be the most consistent team between now and the end of the season. And that's why they'll win the league. I don't know. I just... It is... It is a case of no one in the dressing room has experienced this before like they've experienced getting close and they've not experienced getting over the line and everyone now says as I say you look at City and they've been here and done it but they've not it's not the same team you look at their team there's only a few left there's only a few left and they've done it here but like you know Donna Rummer's done it elsewhere like they've still got a lot of very elite players who've done maybe not won it in the Premier League but they've won trophies elsewhere Yeah, I think they've got a lot of players who are playing for Manchester City.

17:59It's quite new to them. I just don't think it's the same juggernaut that everyone associates with Manchester City. If you're a player in, let's say, a mid-table club dressing room that's got Arsenal and or City in the run-in, how are you looking at those two teams now? Are you looking at Arsenal as kind of objectively the best squad in the country and City, as you say, Gregor is not the force of old, or are even players sort of buying into that more reputational side of it as our Arsenal, Bosselers and City are this winning machine. Like what would opposition players be thinking of those two teams right now, having maybe watched last night as well?

18:37I mean, I think the point you made earlier about recognising the pressure, like clearly you will, and you'll actually probably recognise it in their play too. It's like a little bit more inhibited until they get one up or whatever. and you know but at the same time you're still you're still playing against the best team the team is top of the table best team in the country the team who can win a game by playing pretty averagely and scoring two set plays or whatever like it's still the same Arsenal in that regard Man City I just don't think they're the same dominant force they're not the same even the way they play is not the same as it used to be it's not like you know you're just chasing shadows for 90 minutes that's not the way they play anymore so I just think that kind of perception has changed a little bit but Crickey if you're any team that's playing against them you know that you're playing the best teams in the country look what happens in a runner you see mad things happen you know if you take Man City over the years and you go the Aguero late goal you know it comes from nowhere and you could say well if they if he didn't score then would they have bottled it in the final game and Gundogan against Villa company sat one in the top corner didn't he for Toto to win so these things happen in a running and it's happened to even the great Fergie teams at Manchester United where they were in terrible positions in games.

19:51I remember the Sheffield Wednesday game when Steve Bruce got two goals in it. You know, these things can happen in the running. But that's a good point, though, because actually what's changed since those days is this sense that you have to be almost invincible. Yeah. Because you have had to be to win the Premier League title in the era of Pep Guardiola and Jurgen Klopp's teams. Like, you had to get close to 100 points. That's not the case this season. So people need to take a... particularly Arsenal, just need to take a step back and go, it's not the same landscape. We're holding them up against...

20:2487 will win you it. We're holding them up against a bar that's not there anymore. It's not there this season. So I think that's important. We should just say, for the full run-ins, and I know that you're saying anyone can beat anyone, but Arsenal's games have got, they've got Tottenham away, Chelsea at home, Brighton away, Everton and Bournemouth at home. Then they've placed Manchester City at the Etihad. Then they've got Newcastle at home, Fulham at home, West Ham away, Burnley at home, and Palace away. City have got that Newcastle game at the weekend. Then they play Leeds, Forest, West Ham, Chelsea away.

20:54Then they've got that Arsenal game at home. Then Burnley, Everton, Brentford, Bournemouth, Palace and Aston Villa. There's no easy games in the Premier League, but everyone's saying that City have got the easier running. No, I think they've got a tougher running. Why? Why? They've got, I mean, dismissing Brentford and Bournemouth, they're really dangerous sides. You know, and that's, apart from having Villa on the last day of the season, I think that's a tough one. And everyone seems to today, everyone I spoke to think that Man City are going to beat Arsenal at the Etihad. So if they didn't, what an advantage Arsenal got again.

21:29You know, they are capable of going to the Etihad and winning. We know that. They're good enough to do that. And City are good enough to beat you as well. I just look at this idea of Arsenal, to me, are in a really great position and things haven't gone their way, as in, who would have imagined Raya and Gabriel? Two really important players. Last night, we'd have got caught up in that moment of, Gabriel's so furious because he wants a shout from the keeper. He hasn't got it, obviously. And Gabriel knows he can clear it. And he's took it off his head. And you see what I mean? So that was a mad moment.

22:06We were furious with the keeper, Raya. But Raya's been... How many points has Raya, do you think, got for Arsenal this year? Yeah. A hell of a lot. I would suggest. He's produced so many great saves. So they've got to get back. And what better game to have is Spurs at the weekend? Do you think so? Oh, absolutely. But they've got Spurs' new manager. They've, you know, Igor Tudor's going to have them right up for this, isn't he? There's nothing better than a London derby against your main rival. It's a game you should be... Who will want nothing more than to sing second again, ole, ole. Reverberating around the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium.

22:38It's perfect for them, isn't it? But the bit... Well, no, it's not. because the Tottenham faithful will be driving that team to try and beat Arsenal. And I think that fits well for Arsenal. Really? Yeah, I do. I think because Arsenal can't have them. The Tottenham fans will want them to, but Igor Tudor's going to set them up to frustrate them. Well, will he? He'll take a point. Will he? That is... I think it's the worst time for Arsenal to be having an author and Belgrade. I'm sorry, Tom. We'll stay in kit. I'd agree. Especially with the new manager coming in, there's going to be no Thomas Frank, Thomas Frank out of chance.

23:08There's going to be no booing. There may well be booing because there always seems to be. No, there won't be. There won't be. Tottenham fans will be right up for this one. The whole ground will be going absolutely bananas. From a Tottenham perspective. They've shown they've got a lot of character Tottenham this year, haven't they? Listen, they haven't shown it at all, which is why, Tony, you've been in football way longer than me. This is the exact moment they finally show it and everyone's going, see, look what a good team Tottenham can be at last. I'm telling you. Go on, Kit. Whenever a new manager comes in at any club, there's a bit more positivity, isn't there?

23:39that's the whole new manager bounce thing and so that's going to galvanise Tottenham a little bit the result last night will galvanise them and again there's this kind of unashamed mentality from most non-Arsenal fans like we really really don't want Arsenal to win the league for whatever reason and what club's going to have more of that motivation than Tottenham yeah Gregor the timing of the new manager is not good for Arsenal but I still think I'm kind of with Tony I'm still thinking that one off like if they were facing a team who were going to play a low block and frustrate them and it was just like you know trying to wear a team down when you're slightly at a low ebb that would be tougher than going to a game that's just going to be raucous and you know as Tony says your biggest rivals like that's got a sort of big game event of it's own sort of feel so I still think look the next two games are big they play Tottenham and then they play Chelsea like they need to win one of them at least and because if they don't then you know really the narrative will be ramped up anyone think that in a weird way that if they don't win those two and City do Arsenal are better chasing flip it around they've been the best team all season best squad in the league brilliant going for four trophies anyone think they're better chasing I don't know if they're better chasing but all that happens then is that the pressure the pressure's off no no it flips on to Man City but it's off them they're not you know yeah but it's on Man City like you can't just look at this through the prism of Arsenal and there's psychological fecking turmoil all the time that's exactly what we're doing that's exactly what everyone's been doing because they finished second again ole ole I've told you this is why this is not Man City this is not the same Man City they will be playing with pressure that they've never experienced so what do you think when Liverpool won the title for 30 years absolutely they felt a load of pressure and then they won it in a title in a season when they weren't up against as much pressure because they didn't they walked it that season they walked it they absolutely walked it and deservedly so they were brilliant and they walked it again last season yeah without any pressure the idea that it's easier to chase i think there is substance to that and we've mentioned the aguero season before and it comes up a lot but i don't think it's the worst example because that's maybe the last like real new champion it felt like we had at least a new champion that won it in tight circumstances obviously Liverpool ran away of it in 1920 we all remember the Aguero moment in 2011-12 but United had bottled that title before then whether it was losing at Wigan I think they dropped points home to Everton and the only reason they bottled it was because City had bottled it before then because City had led the whole way and then kind of stumbled can we think about the different fees it's an insult to professional footballers I bring up that season as a great example of when you're leading there is more pressure in that season as soon as city weren't leading they started winning you can't both bottle it no no no you can but you can bottle it back and forth with the blues of the bottle what would you like the phrase to be they're feeling the pressure of winning trying to win the premier league title that's what happens everyone expects it to be easy it's not easy do you know what we can look at every sport and you can say whoever loses, they bottled it.

26:59And I find that phrase so lazy. It's because and I'm not saying from kids. Look, every sport now, if you want to take it to golf, you want to take it to darts, you want to take all different sports you like. The idea in the game in sport now is to attack, attack, attack. And it started with people like Tiger Woods in golf that just went for pin after pin after pin. One-one loads. What happens after that? Then you get all these younger players coming in and play attack, attack, attack. Now you've seen And Guardiola dominate with his attacking style football. OK, but there will come to a stage, which we've got to, where people react to what you do and how you play.

27:35And they find the antidote to that. So this idea that teams bottle it. And look, I do think Arteta is the most under pressure he's ever been in this running. And because it's coming from within as well, within his football club. He knows what the fans are talking about. He knows how they're feeling. He'll listen to radio or read newspaper articles. He knows that he has got to guide this team to getting results in the running. That's why I think it's way more on him. It's just on a bottling point. It's kind of just a term, it's like choking. And I agree. It's human nature, really, isn't it? That when you're leading, there's going to be more pressure on you.

28:17And just in anything, when there's more pressure on you, you're going to do less of a job. I'm a big basketball fan, for instance. And if you look at pretty much like 95 % of players, this applies. So if you look at their shooting percentages in the regular season, they're way higher than they are in the playoffs. Because obviously there's more pressure in the playoffs and therefore you're going to make more mistakes. So that's probably a better, a more like, I guess, empathetic way of looking at it rather than just saying, oh, they choked. It is just human nature. Who needs empathy? I mean, just one other thing on the running as well.

28:50like how important could the Carabao Cup final be in all of this? Because Arsenal man says, if Arsenal can get over the line in a big game against City at Wembley, get the trophy drought done. Could that have an impact? There'll be one in the last. On that is, it feels to me that that's a, it's a Wembley and you go there and it's a one-off game. You can be excused if you come off the wrong end. If you have a terrible performance and get beat 4-0, then there will be some serious questions to kit's point if i still win that then yeah i mean listen there's a lot of games to go between now and then big big sprawling debate about the title so we're going to finish with a nice simple one manchester city or arsenal who wins it and by how many points tony i'll go arsenal by four points kit man city by three man city by three oh he's turned it right around Gregor Arsenal by five Arsenal by five I'm going to go Arsenal by one there we go nice and tight for the finish to the Premier League season if you've got views on Arsenal's hopes to winning the title or Manchester City's struggles in catching them do get in touch with me tom.clock at thetimes.co.uk we're going to take a quick break so it's time for a little bit of levity courtesy of Bill Edgar and his Premier League quiz Bournemouth face West Ham this weekend Bournemouth were West Ham's first ever league opponents at the London Stadium in August 2016.

30:13A year earlier, Bournemouth beat West Ham 4-3 at Upton Park with a hat-trick by which future West Ham player? Find out after the break.

30:33Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Kit Shefford and Tony Cascarino with me. Kit and Tony fighting to give the answer to the quiz question just before the break, which was? Callum Wilson. Callum, you nearly forgot then, didn't you? No, no, I didn't, Tom. No, I didn't. Very good quiz from Bill Edgar's quiz. You can do it every week on the Times website. Tough questions from the latest round of Premier League fixtures. Move away from the Premier League now and let's talk about the Champions League playoffs. They are underway, but despite some remarkable results, it was the troubling scenes in Benfica which dominated the headlines in this midweek.

31:06Real Madrid's Champions League playoff match with Benfica was halted for 10 minutes after Vinicius Junior reported he had been subjected to racial abuse by Benfica's Gianluca Prestiani, following which he and his teammates left the field. Play resumed and Real won 1-0 with Vinicius' goal proving the winner, but the subsequent reaction, I think, from Benfica and their manager, Jose Mourinho, has been very troubling. Just to sum up before we get into all of that, Benfica have claimed that their winger, Gianluca Prestiani, has been subjected to a defamation campaign after he was accused of making a racist remark by Real Madrid's Vinicius Junior.

31:38Kick it out, the anti-discrimination campaign group have accused Benfica manager Mourinho of gaslighting Vinicius as he blamed the forward for inciting the crowd and questioned why he'd been subjected to racist abuse at multiple stadiums. As I said there, Gregor, before I summed up those two kind of follow-up stories, the reaction from Benfica and Jose to what is a very serious allegation is, let's be honest, pretty disappointing. Yeah, and Vinicius Jr. has seen it all before as well. Exactly, many times. yeah I mean like you go through the that guy has had to deal with I mean it's just specifically Valencia actually a few years ago did the same thing it was like this extraordinarily defensive we know football's tribal but there's just no awareness of who the victim is and just taking a pause before you react in this way like no one is saying it's easy for a club whose player is accused of racism, that's not an easy position to be put in either but just take a pause, within 24 hours Benfica, either through the manager or official club platforms, as you say I basically told Vinicius Junior that he'd incited their crowd and players basically in a roundabout way that he brought this on himself they told Vinicius Junior that their club can't possibly be associated with racism because their most famous ever player Eusebio was black.

33:14They'd basically called his teammates liars. Teammates who said they'd heard the remark by posting a video to try and show the proximity of the players when the alleged remark was made and saying that they couldn't possibly have heard it. So you're coming out and attacking everyone. And Prestiani did the same. he said I regret the threats I received from Real Madrid players so you're not only victim blaming you're suddenly turning it around to suggest that you're the victim and as I say like football is tribal and even Mourinho's remark there's been a lot said about Mourinho recently and you're just like you know Mourinho's spent his entire career using moments in press conferences and when a microphone's in his face in front of his face trying to spin things or create conversations that will make his team win and you just wonder I don't know how he could have gone down this route even if part of him, a small part inside his mind is thinking how do we make this more pressure for the next how are we going to win, how am I going to defend my team and how am I going to make it more likely for us to win it's a disgrace that he came out and said these things again Vinicius Junior has according to La Liga there have been 26 incidents of racist abuse directed towards him since 2021 he's had large swathes of stadiums chanting racist abuse at him he's had an effigy hung from a bridge near Real Madrid's training ground he's been sat in a press conference in tears my instinct everyone watches this, I watch the game and everyone watching it would have their own instincts but my instinct is why would he make this up?

35:14Why would he want to become the centre of attention in this sort of context again? And last month he had a banana thrown at him against Albacete like this is happening all the time why would he want why would he want to why can't my instinct is just to believe him so like and I know it's it's not straightforward because you can't you know you raise the again that's another point why you know someone raising their shirt over their mouth is a pretty suspicious thing to do and I know we're used to seeing players put their hands over their mouth to say things they don't want broadcast but to do it in that context is suspicious to say the least and my instinct is to you know was just to believe him and feel enormous sympathy for him you saw him sitting alone in the dugout and like there's also this sort of pressure foisted upon him suddenly to say whether to decide whether the game is going to go forward or not and like what the reaction should be I feel like everyone should have come off the pitch too because even for the referee to try and control that chaotic sort of try and mediate that situation on the pitch loads of club officials and everyone like you know despite the protocols not really knowing what was going to happen next I think getting everyone off the pitch in future for everyone to take a pause in a moment would be a start see Greg has made a lot of points there and you know this is not did he or didn't he say anything this is a case of the rap sheet so long that things have been you know like going in front of the commission in Spain 26 times you said Gregor 26 was it well there have been 26 incidents including 10 different football grounds Yeah.

36:56Well, he wanted to quit Spanish football because of it. And actually, we should say the Spanish football's reaction to this all changed when that became clear. Yes. Which doesn't reflect very well on Spanish football. He made it quite clear that he didn't want to play in Spain because of the number of things. And it has been regular. And I'm with Greg on saying, you know, there is a line in the sand here for everyone that what happened wasn't good. And Jose, and you know I've said this before, sometimes my least favourite word, as I say, is because you can give an example. Because he's given Eusebio as an example, this club can't be racist.

37:30It's just absolutely nonsense. It just really is. You know, I'm sure, I mean, look, Eusebio's not here to answer that. But I'll probably, along the way, he could probably say, well, at certain times, Portuguese football or Spanish football or English football has all had these, you know, these incidents. and you know firing a banana on the pitch isn't like a did someone do someone did they not it's fact they did effigies over a bridge is fact yeah just keep to mind I went to Cagliari in 2019 after there was a number of racist incidents with Lukaku and Moise Keane and there was this kind of this image of Moise Keane when he's playing for Juventus he scored a goal after receiving racist abuse and stood in front of the crowd with his arms out at the side.

38:23And after the game, his manager, Max Allegri, and his captain, Leonardo Bonucci, tried to lay some of the blame for what had happened on 10. So this idea of incitement, actually just raising that as a point is an awful, awful place to start in any of these conversations. So it's irrelevant. Scored an amazing goal. Should be able to celebrate however the hell you want. It's irrelevant what he did. What he did is irrelevant. It shouldn't even be raised and particularly not by someone of the stature in football and like renown of Jose Mourinho. Yeah. And on Mourinho, do we think this has like a permanent impact on how he's viewed?

39:08Because like he's, not to compare other things, but he's like, he's poked people in the eye before on a touchline. And he's cornered. Good to talk about respect. He's cornered. Well, first of all, it's very rich coming from him to moan about someone celebrating excessively at an away stadium. But anyway. At any stadium all the time. So Mourinho's had his other scams for whether it's conduct on a touchdown, whether it's confronting Anthony Taylor after the European final. And yet, what was it? Three weeks ago, we were watching the last Benfica Real Madrid game and seeing Jose celebrating and saying, oh, wasn't Jose brilliant?

39:46the next time whenever that happens again will we be going jose is great la la la la or will we now be thinking oh we can't celebrate this guy anymore because of how he responded to this i think it's a really good point i mean matthew side made this point on the times website didn't he jose marino has reached a new low with vinicius victim blaming uh he said we may never know if jan luca prestiani racially abused uh vinicius but marino's attempt apparent attempts to justify and excuse it must be met with punishment. Because, you know, as we're talking about here, and as we've said with Vinicius, he's probably looking at a leading figure in football like Jose and going, help me out here, mate.

40:22Like, you know, stand up for me a little bit here. And I know it's not your club and you want to kind of try and defend your players, but you want a bit of support here, don't you, from a leading figure in football? Jose's always deflected in many shapes and forms, you know, whether his team's lost a game. And he always loves that unity within a group that's so strong and unbreakable at times. But there is that element of, come on, Jose. You've got to step into place here. And I felt that he would see it as he wants to protect the club and the players at all costs. Even if he was wrong, he still feels...

40:56That's how it sounds to me that Jose would be. It doesn't matter. And, like, you know, Clarenceiroff made the point... I'm not excusing him. Clarenceiroff made the point afterwards when he was a pundit at the game that, like, you know, he said a lot of things there. and the one thing he didn't say was like you know I feel you know the sympathy, empathy any sort of any of that for Finisher Junior for the player so like yeah Jose Mourinho is a master of communication as well like he has been throughout his entire career so you know you can either say that he was as Tony was suggesting there that he's trying to sort of protect his club and his team or you can say that that was an oversight that he made and that says something about jose marino you can you can when i say you can do both i mean you can you can you can protect your player and also give support to vinicius you say this is a very serious allegation we take it extremely seriously we're going to investigate it we wish vinicius vinicius junior well and you move on you've not you you can do both you don't have to just blindly take one side and that's like when we talk about the tribalism that's a shame you don't have to do the victim blaming well i'm sure we'll see if what the ramifications are for that incident in the coming days keep up to date with the latest on the times website some amazing results on the pitch elsewhere in the champions league galatasaray five juventus two what a cracking game that was monaco two psg three psg still showing some frailties bodo glimpt three into milan one i was joking with a tottenham supporting colleague on the desk before this game saying see thomas frank did all right he got you a draw against bodo glimpt they're a good after all.

42:36But Newcastle getting probably one of the best results of the round. A 6-1 first leg win in Carabag. Anthony Gordon scoring four goals including pinching a penalty his captain Kieran Trippier suggested. You didn't need a fourth one. You've already got a hat-trick. But just very quickly on Newcastle, Tony, they're having an odd season. We keep talking about it on this podcast, but 6-1 basically all but through to the round of 16. This is a good signpost for him. Yeah, I mean you said there that Newcastle had a strange, bizarre season in some ways Well, that's Anthony Gordon's season as well. You know, he's got 14 goals this year for Newcastle.

43:10And you're looking, thinking, that's a great return. You know, but there's been periods where he's been streaky. He's got goals and then he's not scored for quite a while. He's lost his place sometimes to Harvey Barnes or, you know, just a different formation in the forward line. That performance was typical of his performance all year, where he's got to come alive. He's got four goals in a game. And he is a dangerous player. And, you know, if he looks back, if we look back at the end of the season, and we say he nearly got 20 goals in a season. What a great return. But it wouldn't feel like that.

43:39Have you watched all of Newcastle this year? There's been some, it's a real rollercoaster, ups and downs for him all during the season. Magnificent result for Eddie Howe after a period where there was being questioned. He's had three wins back to back. Yeah, responds when he does what the best managers do at the top. Just on Anthony Gordon, he's obviously, people would probably suggest if the World Cup starts tomorrow, he's got that left wing slot locked down, as you've been pushing for for a long time, Gregor. Do we like him through the middle? Kind of playing as a front two a little bit with Volta Marder.

44:07Do we think he can play through the middle? Or do we prefer him to be working on that left wing play in terms of England's chances of the World Cup? I saw him play. I think it was Villa away where he played that role. And he actually had a good number of chances in the game. I think it's Villa away. It was an away game that Eddie played him for the first time. I remember thinking, and I think they'd lost the game, but he had a number of chances in that game. And because of his pace, and he wants to get on defenders' shoulders, and he's always willing to run in behind them. Are we talking about as an alternative, like in an England jersey?

44:36I'd say more on a Newcastle sense. I'm saying he's got that, probably that left wing spot, but also almost, not trying to be mischievous, but detrimentally, if you're not, if you're playing in one position for your club and then come England, you're like, right, no, you need to play left wing, having not played it for the last six months because Eddie Howe's gone, oh, you're actually really good through the middle. But I mean, so it was kind of the first question. You were actually getting to carry about, you know, we were talking, I don't know, I don't know if I would say, I still think he's essentially a winger.

45:01If Eddie Howe you know was picking his best team when players were on form and then he'd have either Volkmann or Bissa up front and he'd have Gordon on the left and I think the England question is interesting because some people have since when Morgan Rogers hit a real purple patch was saying he's playing on the left for Villa that's another alternative and it's true Marcus Rashford obviously how he fares between now and the end of the season and Barcelona will be interesting but for me it's Anthony Gordon's shirt because he just fits with the football and the outlook that Thomas Tuchel has given the team since they've begun to flourish and that's all about direct, dynamic really industrious and he's great out of position as well I think he should start if he continues in his fame between the end of the season Well maybe Anthony Gordon and Newcastle will cause Manchester City some problems at the weekend in the title race will be firmly over before Arsenal even play Tottenham on the Sunday Kit, you were on the show So it's a shame not to get a little update on the women's game.

46:00It's been a slightly crazy season in the women's game as well. We talk about this in the men's game. Some of the bigger sides not necessarily performing as you would expect. Who do you want to go first with in terms of Arsenal or Chelsea? Which one's the more interesting? Chelsea have been more interesting recently. It's kind of the dynasty's crumbling. It would be a dramatic way of putting it there. I believe nine points off the pace in the WSL. Man City are runaway leaders in the WSL. they're almost certainly going to win the title and Chelsea won three trophies last season Chelsea won invincible domestic treble last year won the last six WSLs but there is a sense a growing suspicion that maybe some of the issues we've seen on the men's side of the club since clear late came in of sporting directors getting too involved of of priority of developing young players and developing assets rather than just signing the best players there's a slight suspicion that that's coming over into the women's team who have obviously been much more successful than the men's team in recent years and that kind of came to head last week with paul green very abruptly leaving chelsea woman paul green's not a household name but he had been there 13 years and he's the most important person in the history of chelsea woman not called emma hayes and he left with an 130 word statement with no quotes from the board which seemed seemed a bit unusual doesn't look So Chelsea have struggled by their very high standards this year, and it'll be interesting to see how they navigate what seems like a real transition and how that club is run from the kind of Emma Hayes, like great woman rather than great man style of management, to the new head coach Sonia Bonpattis seemingly working in tandem with other people, whether it's directors or other coaches.

47:45Yeah, Man City running away of things and bringing Arsenal, I think, I don't know if this is fresh in my memory, because I was at Arsenal women's second leg last night in the Champions League. We've now got an Arsenal-Chelsea quarterfinal in the Champions League. That's never happened before. And I think we talk a lot about kind of watershed moments in women's football in England in recent years. And I think this will kind of be the next one. It won't be as big as the Lionesses winning at Wembley, obviously, or anything like that. But Chelsea-Arsenal are the two by far biggest women's clubs in the country.

48:18they've got the biggest fan bases they've got a lot of famous players to put it that way and those would be that it's kind of end of March starts of April those would be two really exciting ties which I think will capture kind of attention in a way that the women's club football hasn't hasn't really done before in this country yeah in terms of England as well Serena Viemann naming a squad for the World Cup journey which is going to begin in the coming weeks yeah the final frontier as I'm resisting not to call it too much who's been calling it the final from too myself sometimes i don't know i don't i haven't checked maybe that's been deleted from what i've been filing but i said as in england won two euros on the bounce vegan's won three on the bounce neither have won the world cup it's the last thing they need to win to really be arguably the greatest sporting team in english sporting history they named the squad last week leah williamson was back lauren james hannah hampton were back as expected after they'd had injuries um they're playing ukraine and iceland in the international break next month in their first world cup qualifiers but the big one will be spain in in the camp after that and also in that world cup qualifying group only one team from that group will go through to the tournament automatically so at least one of england spain the euros finalists the world cup finalists will have to go through the playoffs which which would be interesting and yeah england will obviously hope it's not them can they win it oh they can absolutely win it we've got a long time to look at that world cup there'll be a fascinating tournament and to mention emma hayes again and as a journalist who won a narrative an england usa game at that world cup you can be sure that hayes will be would be frothing at the prospect of knocking out her homeland with with the usa but we're a long way from that the final frontier i like that i'm gonna make sure yeah it's not not original but it sounds good on future podcasts we'll leave it there kit shippard gregor robertson and tony cascarino thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back with the regular show on monday we'll see you then