New Year, same old chaotic Chelsea

0:05Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Well, New Year, same old bonkers Chelsea. Manager Enzo Moresca leaves Stamford Bridge. What next for a club which cannot seem to go a season without a bit of chaos? Elsewhere, Arsenal make a statement with a big win against Aston Villa as Manchester City join the rest of the league in dropping points at Sunderland. And we'll also discuss the rest of the midweek action and ask if the focus on set pieces is making football boring this season. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the football reporter and tactics analyst Hamza Kalik Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robinson is here.

0:44As usual chaps, I've got a very important question to start with. Do either of you own a bobble hat? No. God no. No. I've got a new vendetta for 2026. Never mind improvements to VAR and FIFA's increased involvement in messing up football. I want to ban bobble hats from football grounds. They are a menace. Honestly. Why's that? Just because they block the view of the pitch. They've got this stupid bobble on. These grown men who've got bobble hats for Christmas. All at the game yesterday that I went to. And they block little bits of the pitch. What is a bobble hat for? Anyway, completely. You're 6 '3".

1:25Who's blocking your view? Well, you have to sit down, Hamza. You can't stand up. I get told off from the people behind me. It's about respect. Take your bobble hat off. I can't see anything. Anyway, just a little early New Year rant to get us going. But there's far more important things to discuss. Just keeping you on your toes, Gregor. That's all. You didn't see that coming. You thought we were going to dive straight in and talk about Chelsea, which we are now. Chelsea and Enzo Maresco parting company after crisis talks on Thursday. Strasbourg head coach Liam Rossini, the leading contender to replace him.

2:00Pete Rutzler writing on the Times website that Mareska's position was deemed no longer tenable after the deterioration of his relationship with the club's hierarchy. We pass now to the Times' chief correspondent in Chelsea, our crackers matters, Gregor Robertson. You've been waiting for this, haven't you? I mean, it's been a while since we've had anything to really stick the boot in about Chelsea. And here it is, an absolutely farcical situation, it must be said. well it certainly has unravelled very very quickly even in your sort of intro there and I'm reading a lot of people saying oh it's just you know same old Chelsea you know they're mad they're crackers it's not the same old Chelsea I think like people have become a bit desensitised to the madness that has gripped the football club since the Clear Lake Capital Todd Bowley takeover because like whenever the axe was wielded in the past it was to win it was for one reason alone to win and and more often than not that that was the the end result this is not to win this is just always about uh managers not being able to fit in with the owner's structures and like for me i don't see that ever not being a problem uh You can just keep chipping away at the status and the experience and the level of the head coach you're appointing.

3:27You also just glossed over the fact that the Chelsea are looking at Liam Roussignor. Liam Roussignor. I think he's a really smart guy. He's got, I'm sure, a really bright future in coaching. But this is a second head coach who has more experience, and albeit limited experience, in the Sky Bet Championship than they do in the Premier League or the Champions League. That in itself is madness. So, yeah, I just think this is all about the owners again and basically their sort of own self-importance and the idea that they know, they have kind of created this high-volume trading model focusing on youth that is going to break football and has found a new way of sort of, I don't know, creating huge value and asset, you know, asset value on a balance sheet.

4:21And it's the job of a head coach to fit in with that and find a way to win. And I don't think finding a way to win in that model is as easy, anywhere near as easy as they think it's going to be. And has Maresca, you know, been at fault on this as well? Of course, he, you know, I don't think it's any coincidence that he changed his representation in November to George Mendes. there was a bit of a change in his appearance and the touchline, no longer the tracksuit man he looked a bit more like a Pep Guardiola acolyte and all this stuff emerging about him having talks with Juventus and Manchester City that became public very quickly he kind of looks like he's tried to play a hand that he didn't really have he wasn't in a strong enough position at the football club to play the hand that he tried to play and I don't know whether he'll regret it or not a few weeks down the line but if he thinks that he's going to walk into the Manchester City job I think he's probably got another thing coming.

5:25A really good summary there Gregor. We'll come back to talking about Resinha and Mareska in particular but Hamza, just your reaction to some of Gregor's points there and particularly this overall sense that Gregor's assertion that maybe we've just become too used to Chelsea making slightly bonkers decisions. How crazy do you think this situation is? Yeah, I think when reading Peter's report on the website, there's a lot of stuff that obviously Enzo Moreska could have done better. And it started when he just came out with that weird little outburst that was pointed and direct, but not at anyone specifically.

6:01And then he didn't give any detail about what the issue was. He just said that no one supported me over the past 48 hours. and it's since emerged that he was a bit upset with, allegedly upset with the medical department for not giving him as much support as he felt he needed to choose players. But at the same time, you do sort of sympathise with him because this is a manager who this summer won the Club World Cup, he won the Conference League, so by Chelsea's own sort of expectations, he exceeded them, that they just wanted Champions League qualification that was the primary objective he ticked that off and he got two other things one which was a really great bonus the Club World Cup so he's had a really good season then he loses Levi Colwell in pre-season to an ACL injury and he asks can we get another centre back in I was like no no no no but we'll give you another winger and he's thinking guys I didn't want another winger gone actually is great and whatever but I've got plenty of good players.

7:07I didn't really want him. And at the same time, he's thinking, I've done a good job. I know I've got a five-year contract, but I've done a bit more than I was probably expected to. Maybe they'll give me a new contract. The cops are like, no, no, no, no more money. So he does the sort of thing that most people are meant to do in this situation. They go, okay, well, how about I get some interest with someone abroad or a different club? Yeah, a bit of a flirt. A bit of a flirt. A bit of a New Year flirt. But why not present it back to the club and go, you know what? All right, I've done a good job.

7:39These guys are interested in me. Can you just find the money for me? Just so I feel good because I've done a good job. I don't know. And when the club just outright says no to something like that, you can imagine it would make someone like Marescu just feel a bit undervalued. Right. And I'm not saying this is the only thing that's going on, but I think it's just important to try and think about his perspective here. and I think he might just be thinking well I've done all this good stuff I've asked for a few things that they haven't given me in terms of the squad, they've given me stuff that I didn't really want in terms of the squad very young squad, it's hard to develop especially without senior players and when I just wanted a bit more money because I've done a good job, they said no you feel a little bit disrespected and then that fits in with everything that Greg has mentioned about just the way that they do things generally, now I also think there's a lot of stuff that Chelsea do right as well.

8:34I spoke to Paul Mitchell recently about, with UEFA, because UEFA have a sporting director's course and I was wondering what's the, I wanted to get into what a sporting director does and what the future is for them. And the guys at UEFA, Paul, and a couple of other sporting directors that I spoke to in the Premier League said that this model that Chelsea have is a bit closer to the future than many people assume. because the sporting director's role nowadays is just so vast so big you've got to not just be an expert in for example managing people because you're a line manager you've got to be able to recruit players so that includes sort of video and analysis expertise data expertise you've got to liaise with scouts got to liaise with managers you've also got to be on top of legal issues now so it's a really big job and in their view it's no longer something that can just be done by one person you actually need to have several or multiple at least sporting directors uh to deal with it uh so i think that the model that chelsea has is quite unique in the premier league at the moment uh with five people involved but it is a multi-club model first of all and when you look at other um sports especially american sports you'll see that they also have uh similar layers of hierarchy at their franchises as well.

9:57So I think lots of other clubs will begin to move towards this model and that also means it's a bit more difficult for any manager to sort of know where they are in the pecking order. So these are things that need to be resolved, not just at Chelsea, but across the league more generally in the months and years to come. So I think we'll have similar situations at other clubs too, like this. Mureska not only found that he was below the five sporting directors and the co-owners of the club in the pecking order, but behind the medical staff Yeah, true Which goes back to, you're referring to a situation recently with injuries correct?

10:40Yes, yes, and it's like how they manage how he's being asked or expected to manage players' minutes and also I think it seems to tie into a bit to a sort of policy of rotation as well. So when you add through all these things into the pot, you are as the head coach looking at yourself thinking, you know, there's clearly been a line in the sand drawn in terms of the club are adamant that there's never any interference in team selection. But you do also see, of course, some of the sporting directors and the owner walking across the pitch after every game to have a kind of debrief after the match.

11:21there's a reason they're signing so many players. They feel that they want to be able to compete on all these fronts. And why would you have all these players if you're not going to play, at least most of them? So all these things are just external pressures on a head coach that make you feel like, yeah, as I'm just saying, my authority is, despite some decent achievements in the first year, very good achievements in my first year, my authority is perhaps been eroded rather than sort of strengthened. So I definitely have sympathy for him. I think he did a good job in trying circumstances and he actually exceeded my expectations.

12:01He exceeded a lot of people's expectations when you consider where he came from, Leicester City, after winning promotion in the championship. That was his first proper crack at number one role. And I come back to it, I think whoever is in place at Chelsea, you can talk all the talk, you can walk into the job and say, yes, I totally understand my position in this organisation, understand what my roles and responsibilities are in relation to everyone else's. But when it comes down to being a head coach of a club of the size of Chelsea, you do need to feel like you have authority. like I think the players will be able to recognize when you do or don't as well and you need to feel like you can you're the one picking and choosing the team and having an influence on who should come into the club like a decent influence and like where we're we need to strengthen we're like what's going to make the team more likely to win as opposed to just accumulate more and more assets Yeah, just very quickly, Gregor, on Enzo Maresco then, just to kind of finish off his part in this.

13:15He leaves Chelsea and actually this situation, because lots of people might be going, you know, why are you walking away? And obviously great detail in Pete Rutler's piece about him potentially waiving some of his compensation fee. Part of this, you know, it's a parting company. It's not, no, not a sacking. He's very much involved in this, how this has unravelled. But he leaves this in a quite strong position, doesn't he? Because you touched on it there. He joined from Leicester and had a lot of people, probably some of us on this podcast, going, gosh, they've hired a guy who, yeah, fine, he's won the championship, but this is a big job.

13:46He's walking away from this, as Hamza alluded to. He's won the Club World Cup. He delivered the Conference League as expected. He delivered Champions League football. He's walking away with this being linked with Manchester City and Juventus. He's in a very strong position, isn't he? look he's in a much stronger position than when he arrived at Chelsea like he's definitely his status has risen enormously and he's shown we should say he's shown in a lot of the biggest games you just go back to the Barcelona game about a month ago which I was at in these big games against elite opposition he can match the best tactically and hatch a game plan that often has been successful.

14:31As Pete has said on many occasions, it's often been the kind of going to Burnley or going to Leeds or whoever, teams that are... Or home against Bournemouth, as it was this week. Well, indeed, yeah. It's been the kind of consistency. And as we have said time and time again, that is where the value of experience and a bit more know-how and leadership on the pitch is extremely valuable. And I think he's alluded to that himself in recent weeks as well, a little bit. So, yes, he's definitely in a stronger position. But having said that, I still think probably the way that all this news is, the speed of this sort of unraveling and the way that the kind of briefing and counter-briefing has emerged has probably dented his reputation a little bit.

15:19Because it is obvious that he's kind of overplayed his hand. and ultimately it's backfired. Yeah, in terms of Chelsea then, we talked about Maresca and where does this leave Chelsea now, Hamza? You've alluded to lots of the players they've got in their squad. You've both talked about these great young potential talents but a potential lack of depth in certain areas that Enzo Maresca himself had alluded to earlier in the season. Whether it is Liam Rossini or another coach brought in, they're in an interesting position now, aren't they, with this managerial change coming when it does? and as I said there, a draw against Bournemouth highlighting some of the problems that Pete Rutzler has highlighted on this show many times, just a lack of consistency.

16:01This is a huge six months for the Todd Bowley organisation, isn't it, in terms of where they go now. What do you think Chelsea have to do for this to be seen as a successful decision, Hamza? Oh, that's quite a tough question. I think for it to be seen as a successful decision in the short term, you would simply say that they qualify for the Champions League. So top four, top five, I think largely just because of the quality that they have at their disposal, they should still be in a good position for that. A new manager will change things, obviously, that makes it a bit more difficult. But yeah, that would be the short-term objective.

16:39But I think the issue that the fans will feel is that, once again, in the same way that when they felt like they were building towards something with Pochettino, and when they had built towards something with Thomas Ducal, and then he was starting again, and then they committed to another project with Graham Potter, it feels like the project keeps getting pushed back a year or two every year or two, right? So the promise is of, essentially, we'll be able to compete for the league in three or so years. And then you get a year in the project. Oh, great, we're ahead of schedule. And then it's, oh, we've had a little hitch in the road and we're going to reset everything again.

17:19That, I think, is the main criticism of fans. And I think they've probably got a point there. Had they committed to, let's say, Tuchel or Pochettino, would they have been ahead of where they are now? Probably. Mureska did a great job in getting the team to play because there were some fabulous performances. Obviously, the PSG match in the Club World Cup final, but Martin, Sammy mentioned in his piece a few other matches as well. Liverpool last season, Liverpool this season. Really impressive tactical performances that showed intelligence, platforming of those really great players that they have signed.

18:01Yeah, it's quite difficult. But I think to answer your question in short, Champions League qualification this season, a cup run would be great. But I think to justify this decision, they should be competing for the league next season because that's what they would have been doing with Maresca anyway, I think. I think that's a fair trajectory, right? Just given how they played this season and they had the Club World Cup disruption. So I think you've got to offer Muresk with the team a bit of mitigation. So yeah, I think for this to be justified, that they should be competing for the league next season.

18:33Yeah, Hamza said there, Greg, quite a tough question and I definitely agree with him because it's a big ask. So just the same question to you there. I would just add as well something I forgot to mention earlier. Bill Edgar pointing out on the Times website, top 10 net transfer spending since Todd Bowley's Chelsea takeover in May 2022. Chelsea top in the Premier League £687 million net spend amongst the ever-present teams they are top. So that is also a significant factor here that fans and neutrals alike will be going, when is this going to deliver on the highest level? Hamza said there that competing for the title next season, Gregor, Champions League this season would you agree that for this to be seen as a logical decision wise to move on?

19:14There's pressure here though isn't there? This organisation, Hamza talked about it, five sporting directors, very top-down management. They've got to deliver on this now, haven't they? I mean, it's hard to know what is delivering for them. I've kind of just outlined it. It feels to me like the outcome on the pitch is not as important or as high on the list of priorities as the economic blueprint. That's the fundamental flaw in the whole design. Going through those names, Graham Potter was exciting. He's an up-and-coming English coach. We've heard him since talking about having players getting changed on the floor outside of the dressing room because there were too many to deal with.

20:08like then you're talking about you know pochettino pochettino was a was a big name yeah and and and he he he more and the longer he was there kind of undermined the the whole idea of the project more and more because he he was essentially saying you need to find room for you know for a bit more pragmatism and to kind of to allow me to do the things that i think need to be done to win to try and compete for the league Hamza said there that they'd be on the trajectory to compete for the league next season that assumes a lot of things it assumes that they hold on to their best players it assumes that they don't just jettison players who they think aren't they think they can upgrade on or they think they hold value in terms of trading them, moving them on to comply with profit and sustainability regulations.

21:07There is so much up in there. You almost feel that they will always undermine their own future success. That's the way I feel anyway. And I think a lot of fans feel that way too. I don't think you can say, I don't think there's an answer to your question, Tom. I don't think you can say what will make this seem logical and successful because they're not going to go out and hire a manager who's going to win the league. Maresco was already the step down, the guy who was going to be a coach in name and purpose. He was going to be the head coach. We're signing the players, you coach them, and we don't want to hear anything else from you.

21:45And immediately, that was the whole idea when he was appointed. And almost immediately, when they were on the tour of the United States, you realised that's not who this guy is. He's going to give you his opinions. He's going to tell you what he thinks. And that's ultimately what has happened. he kind of questioned the project. And so if Liam Rossiniar is your next guy, I mean, I don't see fans actually getting on board with that. I think fans will be really angry if Liam Rossiniar is appointed as manager. And actually, the fans of Strasbourg will be as well. Yeah, really interesting. Worrying signs, listeners, for the Game Podcast 2026.

22:29His catchphrase before has been, both things can be true. Now we've got, I don't think there's an answer to your question, Tom. Very worrying times for Gregor Robertson's ability to sit on the fence. But Chelsea fans, Greg, I mentioned you there. Do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk with your views on the situation, which is ongoing at your club. Constantly crazy times at Stamford Bridge. Let's move on. Loads of other action in the midweek to talk about. And I wanted to link some of the nil-nil draws and the one-all draw between Fulham and Crystal Palace. slightly lower scoring games last night and I wanted to link them to a piece by you Hamza about set pieces this season and about whether it's making football slightly less entertaining in the Premier League boring was the word used in the headline but I'm not necessarily going to direct that at you because I know what the pesky headline writers are like you thought my question about Chelsea was difficult this one's going to be even more difficult because it's a fascinating piece really really detailed I'd encourage listeners to go and find it on the Times website now.

23:30Just try and sum up for us, if you can, in a brief summary, some of the things you found when delving into the data around set pieces in the Premier League this season. Yeah, actually, I would go with boring. I think I used that word in the piece. I think they have made the game more boring this season. But first, a little bit of context. A few weeks ago, I think after the Bournemouth United match, they had a sport who sent an email around. It's asking reporters to send in the match that they'd been at this season in the Premier League that was most entertaining and I went through all my match reports and still checked which games have been and I went oh my god I've not done that many exciting matches that's not to say I haven't been at good matches as in but not very exciting ones right I've seen quite a few good teams but but yeah and then I thought okay maybe it's just am I just being miserable is it because I've been staying up to watch cricket and seeing that that might be it The cricket would definitely make you miserable.

24:27I just reflect first before you write this piece. And then I watched a few more matches. And I thought, actually, no, I think the quality is quite poor. And I think it is a bit more boring. When you say quality, sorry to interrupt. When you say quality and boring, do you mean kind of technical abilities not on show as much because of the focus on set pieces? Or do you mean that the type of play is a bit restrictive because of what do you mean by it's not as exciting and boring? Both things. And actually, there was an interview that Anthony Barry gave a couple of months ago, and Johnny Northcroft wrote the piece.

25:01And in that, Anthony talks about the tactical meta in the Premier League at the moment, because everyone's so good, right? And you know what your opponent's going to do. You end up in this state where you've got like a dead zone. There's a tactical interregnum. and this dead zone on the pitch is literally 30 yards middle of the pitch sort of thing so you'll end up with one team with the ball the other team without the ball watching them and going okay we're going to stop you playing for the middle because you're very good at that and then the team with the ball thinking okay well how do we score they're really good at pressing they're really good at defending space it's really difficult to get forward if I've got the ball and I want to take risks let's say i'll throw an attacker forward get maybe two more players into the box that's really risky right because i'm then leaving space in behind yeah um but that dynamic changes when you can use set pieces and use them really aggressively because for example if the ball goes out 40 yards from goal for a throw-in and you've got someone who can launch a ball in with a throw-in suddenly what would be a really sort of innocuous phase of possession becomes a genuine goal scoring opportunity if you can get the throw in because you can pack the box with like nine guys and in open play it's really hard to pack the guy the box with nine nine players because that's really risky and that that difference between risk and reward changes and that then affects how team think can play about the play the game because why would you take all that risk in open play if you could get the goals from set pieces and when when looking through the data i noticed that um so first of all there's been fewer goals this season uh however the rate of set pieces has increased and that's weird right how could you have more goals from one particular type one particular type of goal set pieces and have fewer goals overall and that's because goals can sort of um crowd out other goals and let's say you play a defensive style with and you're looking for set pieces you can just play a very stale dour match that's low event and then once you get the set piece, great, that opens the game up.

27:09You get the goal and then you can counter-attack. But that means for all the interim period, until you get the opening goal, the go-ahead goal, the equalising goal, of which more this season have come from set pieces, you're incentivised to play a much less risky game and that makes it a bit less interesting to watch. So yeah, we've had a decline in open play goals, an increase in set piece goals, and at the same time teams are realising that they can optimise set pieces a lot more because, like I said, If you've got the goalkeeper taking a free kick from 40 yards and you can put 10 guys in the box, that's a completely different situation and goal for it than, let's say, the centre-back being on the ball 40 yards out from goal, a left-back being 20 metres to their left, a right-back being 30 metres to their right, a centre-back alongside them, a number six, five metres in front of them.

27:58you've got to really work hard to develop that possession sequence to turn that into a shot you don't have to work as hard to turn a set piece into a shot and I think managers and coaches are realizing that and going well if we can do that why don't we and the issue I have is it makes football as a spectacle a bit worse in my opinion and when you say I guess you're talking because I would I would maybe counter that you highlight there things we've seen a lot as you say a throw in kind of halfway into a half that normally if unless you've got a long throw specialist would be kind of thrown backwards or inside and possession retained but then you're saying you know you can get the guys in the box and we're going to launch it and similarly with a free kick from a goalkeeper on halfway is there not a counter to say that that actually is creating more in box in penalty area potential excitement for fans in the ground and watching at home it's just a different type of excitement and chance that is being created to the kind of maybe more possession free-flowing and risk-based game that you're talking about is it is it more about what type of football you're comfortable with witnessing yeah that that is true but um what i would say to that is that this season the guys that you'd want to get touches in the box like strikers that their touches are down and defenders touches right so yeah it's true that you attack games in a different manner.

29:16But what I'm saying is when you've got an unprecedented level of technical quality, you probably want to see the forwards in the box do their stuff. True. And I feel that nowadays there is an expectation that given the quality on the show, given the riches of the Premier League, the wealth of the Premier League, sorry, that they should be playing football principally, right? The ball should be in play. They should be looking to excite. We should be getting out of our seats And the thing is, we know they can play better than this because we've seen it over the past few years, right? We've seen fantastic football.

29:53And in this season and in recent seasons too, there are teams that just look to play for set pieces. And that makes a less entertaining spectacle. And I know people will be thinking, oh, yeah, you're talking about Arsenal again. I mean, you could go back to the 1920 season and Liverpool won the league that season. and they did that primarily through opening games up with set pieces. Goals change games, right? You take the lead, bang, you can then sit back, control, counter-attack and that's what they did to win the league. But I think anyone that watched that Liverpool team and then watched the team the season before, 18-19 or the team a few years afterwards, the 21-22 team would go, actually, of the three teams, that was the worst.

30:34That was the least entertaining, least fun to watch. Most effective, absolutely. but the other two teams were really good to watch they're enjoyable and as a neutral you could enjoy that spectacle but when watching that 19-20 team Trent takes a corner Van Dijk scores a header then you get 20 minutes of them keeping the ball and then Marnie or Salah would score on the counter I mean great sure whatever but as in we can do better than this and I think teams like Spurs and Arsenal now when you see how they approach possession they're really really defensive they just keep the ball very very safely until they have the lead and then they attack but we'd like to see them attack when the game's level.

31:11They've got really good players. It should be incumbent on top teams to do that. And whereas set pieces used to be a tactic that teams that had a talent disadvantage before would use to equalise their difference, now you have really good teams using their talent advantage to increase their difference over weaker teams. And you want a more balanced game, and I don't think we're getting that at the moment because of set pieces. so hopefully IFAB will think about how they can rebalance them Yeah we know what your New Year's resolution is Hamza more attacking and risk football on the pitch it really is a fascinating piece listeners we could talk about it for the whole episode but I encourage you to go and find it on the Times website just search for Hamza's name and maybe just the word boring and the piece will appear I'm sure you mentioned Liverpool there Hamza let's bring them in because also linked to Set Pieces Liverpool part in company with Set Pieces coach Aaron Briggs this week Liverpool have obviously struggled with conceding goals from set pieces.

32:09Looks like they might have slightly shered it up with a 0-0 draw at home against Leeds. Gregor, on this game, slightly summing up the two-team seasons. Leeds in great form at the minute. Two wins and four draws in the past six games. Liverpool, again, just when you start to think maybe things are clicking, maybe Florian Verzi is starting to look like he might justify that massive price tag. Even Hugo Eketike with that slightly bizarre-headed miss where he slightly cleared the ball rather than putting it into an empty net. Really good point for Leeds, points dropped for Liverpool. Which way do you look at this game, Gregor?

32:43It's both. I mean... He's back, everyone. Both things can be true. We've got him back. Thank God for that. I thought he'd gone. Thank God. No, it's a great point for Leeds. I mean, continuing their run that's built on really solid defensive foundations and then, you know, coming back to what Hamza's been talking about, a big part of the way they've got their wins recently is through set pieces and also kind of crosses into the box to Dominic Calvert-Lewin and he almost came on and pinched it scored a goal that was just offside towards the end but for Liverpool yeah Paul Joyce kind of summed it up in his match report they're a bit of a tough watch Arnie Slott said you've got to give us half a season to sort of judge us on the sort of new look side and if we're serving judgment now it's not positive they're just not I mean Frimpong injected a bit of pace but I personally don't see him as an out and out right winger and if you just look at the pair the team sheet and you think last season Salah and his prime playing on the right there, if Frimpong said the answer I don't know what the question is and Florian Vert's Yeah, it just looks like it's not going to be smooth.

34:07It's not going to be smooth for him. James Justin had a great game at right back. They're not really linking up in the way that you would hope. I think Eke Dike's continually been a breaksback. I know he missed a good chance there, although it was lashed across goal. There's moments where he can actually just create something out of nothing. He'll get the ball in the edge of the box and he'll turn and he'll drive in and he'll beat a player or get to the byline or link up and just fashion an opening. He's been the real bright spark, I think, along with Soboslai this season, but of the new players in particular.

34:47And it's just, he kind of has an aura of, like, I don't really care what's going on around me or the troubles that we're facing or how laborious we are. I'm going to make something happen. But, yeah, I think I think Paul Joy summed it up. They're a tough watch. They're not looking like they're fluid and really clicking in attack. So still a lot of work to do for Arnish Lott. Yeah, struggles continue for Liverpool and Arnish Lott and they continue for Thomas Frank at Tottenham as well. A 0-0 draw against his former club, Brentford. Some Tottenham fans showing their displeasure with the performances in this game.

35:24They've got a huge home game against Sunderland at the weekend. So just quick work from Sunderland, Gregor, because 0-0 draw with Manchester City. Six players away at the Africa Cup of Nations, Dan Ballard injured, but another brilliantly spirited display at the Stadium of Light. They were so good at home in 2025, starting the year, as they mean to go on. I mean, we're running out of great things to say about Sunderland, but this is important points drop for City, isn't it? Yeah, and it kind of turned into a bit of a thriller in the second half. City brought on Rodri and kind of that transformed.

35:58under, as Guardiola said afterwards, he just was able to play that forward pass that kind of broke the lines and got City on the front foot more often. And Sunderland defended brilliantly. The way they defend their box, the way they bully opponents. I mean, Mucchielli and Alderete bullied Erling Haaland in this game for basically the entire match. There There were periods in the first half where he was just getting shrugged off or he was wrestling and things that were just bordering on a foul, but he would get out, Muki Eli in particular, would just get away with it. And they've been outstanding, that defensive duo.

36:40And they've kind of rode the luck a little bit. There were one or two moments in the second half where Doku in particular was kind of mazing into the box and there was one where he beat Trae Hume and got a shot off and I think it struck Alderete in the face and you just kind of knew it was Sunderland's day in that moment But Brian and Brobby on the break have good chances as well, shrugging off the defenders getting in, they always create chances don't they? They do, they offer that threat on the break, that's what's making them so kind of compelling to watch actually, they're not just a team that defend their box, they also press high and they create, they like they force errors and create chances that way as well and if they are defending deep they can break quickly so it was a brilliant defensive performance by Sunderland City could have won it but I think ultimately Pep even said afterwards I can't be too disappointed with this because I've been in the game long enough to know that coming up to a stadium like this where every tackle is cheered like it's a goal and a team that's in really high spirits and brilliant defensively, it could be seen as a decent point at the end of the season.

38:00Although, obviously, Arsenal are the big winners from this one. Yes, absolutely, definitely. And I will keep saying it, Robin Roos is the signing of the season so far. Great on the ball as well. I'll keep banging on about it until every single person in football agrees with me. Absolutely fantastic signing. Some great saves. And as you say, very good with the ball at his feet, Gregor. But as you mentioned there, Arsenal delighted with this one. a bit of a Christmas gift for them. Actually, we're moving on from Christmas, haven't we? Let's call it a New Year birthday present, maybe. There you go.

38:27If we've got any Arsenal fans with January birthdays, happy birthday. This terrible link was for you because after the break, we'll be talking about that statement win over Aston Villa. But first, a question from Bill Edgar's big end of year quiz. Big end of year quiz you can take part in on the Times website. Now, here's a question from it. Which Chelsea player was sent off against Flamengo at the Club World Cup, having also been dismissed in his final league appearance of the season away to Newcastle United a few weeks earlier. Find out after the break.

39:17Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Kalikluna and Gregor Robertson with me Gregor starting the year strong with the answer to the quiz question which was Nicholas Jackson and ending the year very strong as well Gregor with your last game of 2025 going to the Emirates to watch Arsenal for Aston Villa 1 we talked about it being a statement win I think that's the easiest cliche description of this but it really was that for Arsenal from this game we all went into it talking about it on Monday's show with Alison Rudd Gregor if Villa can win I thought they might a fantastic performance from Arsenal crucial for Mikel Arteta to as I say make this statement in the title race what did you make of it being in the ground?

40:00It was an outstanding second half display that's just like there was no escaping it there was just a real change in their intensity and their drive Arteta described it as aggression basically in the second half and getting the goal so early in the second half was key, it changed the game Emery admitted that, and then the second so soon afterwards. But they didn't let their foot off the gas. Arsenal have in the past, going 2-0 up, and as Hamza said, often a set of pieces was got them in front, and it was the first goal, even if it was an error by Martinez. But what they've often done then is, we can defend this, but no, they went for the jugular.

40:43And there were so many really big, big performances. Like Martin Odegaard just took the game by the scruff of the neck, and the way he sort of drove them forward, the way he set up Zubimendi for the second goal. He played his part in the third goal as well, getting the cross in and sort of working the ball earlier in the move before Trossard whipped in. Trossard as well, like repeatedly stepping up with goals and assists. And you kind of come away from this game, because beforehand the big news was Declan Rice. Declan Rice's injury I think it's only the fourth time in 95 games Since he's been at the club That he's missed a game And you know Rice is kind of arguably With injuries to Oudegard Injuries to Gabriel Injuries to Saliba To so many players He's become their most important player And so His admission just when they're playing Aston Villa Who have won 11 games in a row could have gone level with him at the top.

41:49That's like, you know, really bad timing. But then you come away from this game afterwards and you think, who is Arsenal's most important player? Like, there are so many. Gabriel is like just a force of nature. He, in both boxes, the way, not just from the set plays, but the partnership him and Talibah, you just kind of come away thinking, if those two stay fit, we've said it so often, we said it season after season, if those two stay fit and healthy together, like, I think this year they'll win the league. because they'd only played five games in the Premier League before this game, and they hadn't conceded a goal, and they'd won all five of them.

42:26And then it took until the 94th minute for them to concede a goal in this game. They just are absolute monsters defensively. Is there a case, though, just for answering your question there about who is Arsenal's most important player, that it is David Raya? I vaguely remember a debate earlier this season, based on their squad depth and strength, and you talked about Declan Rice being injured, we talked about then the centre-backs being injured. If Raya were injured, you know, lots of differing views on Kepa as a replacement. Do you base it on who comes in if they're missing? That's a good point.

43:00That's a good point. But you also have to base it on just their influence on the team when they're in it. So then Odegaard now is getting, Arteta described afterwards, he's getting into his flow again after, you know, he's had shoulder injuries. he's just been a really stop-start season from, scored another week, really pivotal performance in the second half in this game. We'll not have mentioned Saka. Obviously, this is in the context of Rice's absence. It's not that important, but it's like when you're casting around looking at so many players who are just huge figures for Arsenal, when they're all fit, they're in a really, really good place.

43:42and the only question mark for them is still Giochres. It's not that it's a huge issue because he works so hard and he occupies defenders and he makes runs and he almost scored a header in the first half. He linked up really well to get the corner for the first goal at the start of the second half, but he just doesn't look like the same level of player as everyone around him. So that's the only question mark in this team. and it was a statement. It was like, with everything, with all the context, with Villa's run, with the way Arsenal have been really sticky in December and kind of sort of edged wins, a couple of draws, the Emirates has been getting really kind of nervy and edgy and Villa's first half performance was excellent.

44:31Like the way they came out and just kind of swept them away in the second half was really, really big for the Tigers. It was a statement, you put that in your report as well, but like you literally just mentioned that start from Villa was quite good do you reckon it could have been different as well had like Ollie Watkins took his chance could the game have changed and it become a bit nervous at all Yeah I mean Villa in the first 20 minutes were excellent it was like you know they kept cutting through again Rice's absence like loomed large you had Odegaard, Zubemendi and Marino in midfield and they were cutting through Arsenal's midfield with ease there was a number of, there was like three or four just really quick breaks, there was one where Morgan Rodgers had it on the edge of his own box almost lost the ball, turned one pass and another ball to Onana and he was bearing down on goal and he went down under a challenge by Saliba, it wasn't a penalty that was kind of warning served then there was a beautiful pass from Uri Tillemans from deep that sent Rodgers clear again didn't quite manage to get the shot off and then as you say that chance for Watkins that was a bit of a loose pass ball was nicked off the toes of Giochrez, played it into Watkins and he kind of scuffed it scuffed it wide in the near post and that had gone in yeah, it could well have been different because Arsenal would have had to come out even more and Villa's game plan was very clear it was to soak up pressure and to play through the middle of the pitch really quickly, which is what they do so well and it took Arsenal Arteta admitted afterwards it took them a while to realise how to combat that and to stop them at source almost and they did that emphatically in the second half but yes, it could have been different because Villa had a couple of chances in the first half it could have been 1 or 2-0 up and it might have been different because these two teams have played very differently recently Arsenal often start really well and smother the opposition and Villa have been often having to come from behind to win games so that would have flipped the context for both of them completely but it helped the course it was a resounding victory in the end off the bench and scored but they also have it sir right do you think that changes the dynamic for the second half of the season now like you mentioned Jokoraz isn't quite sort of pulling his weight but those two it feels like they add a lot more in possession yeah yeah like just look at their bench it's extraordinary strength like the As you say, Havertz back for the first time since August.

47:08Martinelli, Eze not getting off the bench. Madueke coming on. Ben White back a little earlier than anticipated from a hamstring injury. Jesus coming on scoring within 55 seconds. Lewis Skelly still not... They played hincapi at left back. With Calafiore injured, they've got three really good options at left back there. they've got real strength and depth and even with the sort of injury, you don't want to say an injury crisis but there's just been a lot of injuries, I think Rice is the 18th player to have had at least one injury this season for Arsenal, I think it was the fourth most in the league, Mosquera was out as well they still have a really really strong bench and if Jesus comes back and he kind of gets close to playing in the way that he played in his first season at Arsenal then that's going to be a huge boon for him I personally think he'd be the player to lead the line but Havertz coming back as well gives them clear options there and that was just a contrast you saw with Aston Villa who clearly had been on an extraordinary run and a lot has been we've been asking every week are they in the title race?

48:23Matty Cash and Bubukar Kamara were suspended for this game their kind of stand-ins were not the same. Well, Nanna's a good player, but Bill Gard right back, he's a midfielder more, I think, really. And Trossard gave him a difficult evening. So Villa aren't in the same kind of league in terms of their squad depth, but the way that Emery set them out, they gave Arsenal real problems and I still think it can be a really exciting season for Aston Villa. Yeah, Hamza, just very quickly, you kind of teed up a question there that I want to just finish by asking. about the return of Gabriel Jesus and Kai Havertz, who we talked about in pre-season with the signing of Victor Jocherez.

49:04Do you actually think that could be a strength for Arsenal now where they've got kind of three quite different forward players that give them different options in different games and that actually the big debates we were having in the summer around, oh, well, is Jocherez the first choice? Is Havertz the first choice? Gregor's touting the potential and offering of Gabriel Jesus. is having all three of them one of Arteta's real strengths going into the second half of the season. Yeah, I guess with Havertz and Jesus Sev, two genuinely good forwards for the Premier League, I'm not sure Jokeres is.

49:36But nonetheless, Arteta has had a fascination for some time about building a squad and group of players that have a range of different profiles so that he can do a range of different things depending on the opponent. He talks about this all the time. When setting up tactically, it's about how does the opponent play what do we want to do with them uh and and by having a player like jesus uh who's very technical and able to get shots off inside the box and can link really really nicely to have someone like habits who can do some similar stuff but it's a much more physical presence enormously important on set pieces defensive and offensive ones uh and can and get shots off is a good late runner into the box and then a conventional-ish sort of centre forward in Jokeres.

50:25Yeah, you've got three profiles there that will challenge any team in very different ways. So if, for example, you're playing Arsenal, you're thinking, oh, I don't know how I'm going to task my centre-back with these guys because each one posed a very different question to me. Ideally, you'd probably just play Jokeres because he's the easiest of those to deal with. But if Haberts plays or Jesus plays, that dynamic changes a lot. The question is, though, as it was before last season, which we said, how do these guys get more goals from the team as a whole? Because they're not super prolific goal scorers or they've not demonstrated a prolific goal scoring rate in the league.

51:03That's fine. You can have a centre forward that doesn't do that as long as they get more goals for Saka or Martinelli or Madweke or Trossard or the midfielders. So that's just the challenge for them this season. but I think Havertz and Hazus will add a lot and especially on the defensive side with Havertz he's so important to how they press that chance that Gregor mentioned where Jokeres couldn't quite receive the ball and it led to a Villa chance that just wouldn't happen with Havertz he'd hold the player off he'd receive it he'd spin he'd play in and then Arsenal would be able to build so yeah I think he's enormously important for them from a defensive point of view and offensively as well.

51:43But yes, this is a really, really good sign for Arsenal and they've managed to weather the worst of the injuries, I think, while still retaining a league, well, extending a league at the top of the table. So it really bodes well for them for the remainder of the season. A show of strength from Mikel Arteta's side. Just wrapping up some of the other games in the week. West Ham again failing to win at home 2-2 draw with Brighton. In that one, Gary Jacob reporting on The Times' website about a potential link between Raheem Sterling and West Ham. Sterling also linked with a move to Fulham and neglected to mention in the first half of the show that brilliant equalising goal from Tom Kearney.

52:20What a lovely strike that was. Manchester United, frustration for them as well, failing to follow up a 1-0 win against Newcastle, drawing one all at Wolves. They just don't seem to be able to do both things under Ruben Amorim. An important victory for Eddie Howe and Newcastle at Burnley. Whilst Nottingham Forest losing for the third time on the spin, Greg, address just a final question from me. We've talked up Sean Dyche's short reign at Nottingham Forest and I've said myself, having watched them against Tottenham, oh, they won't go down, there's no chance. Three defeats on the spin perhaps suggests there's still some frailties there as we start heading into the January transfer window.

52:56Any worries from you, Gregor, about your former side? No. I think when you look at the game, like the Manchester City game could have been very different last week. They played really, really well in that game. and although they lost 2-1 that was a proper performance. This was, you know, Garner scored an early goal and Everton defended doggedly and still offered a threat in the break and scored another with a great little piece of play by Garner again to play in Barry. But Forest still had a lot of attempts on goal. They had chances. And Deitch was saying afterwards that when the expectation rises, how we deal with that is the next step in their development.

53:41I think he's probably right. Playing well against Man City at home when you're not really expected to get anything from it, it's almost easier than digging out a tough victory against Everton, who are depleted, we should say, as well. They wiped the floor with Spurs a few weeks ago at home as well. it's the games that they're kind of now almost expected to win or really need to take points from that they need to start doing but I personally think that they'll probably sign one or two in the window I think they need a full back I don't think Zinchenko is going to be the answer and I know Savona is not so Necco Williams is really, Ola Aina is coming back from injury but I don't know whether they can rely upon him and it's really important that they've got another option there for the second half of the season and the length was Strand Larsson along with another few clubs so they might sign another striker but beyond that I think they've definitely got enough to survive I don't think it'll be like plain sailing but I think Forrest will be okay Reassuring words from the former Forrest man Gregor Robinson and Hamza Khalid Lunat we'll leave it there thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening the football comes thick and fast at this time of year we'll be back on Monday to talk about the weekend's action we'll see you then