On tour with Liverpool and Chelsea

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1:54Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. Well, after one episode back in the studio dealing with Premier League matters, we are going global again. I'm Tom Clarke and on today's jam-packed show we are visiting America to speak to Ian Whittle on tour with Liverpool. We're chatting to Peter Rutzler who's in Australia with Chelsea and Tottenham. And in part two, we hear from our European football expert Ian Hawkey to tell us about Jurgen Klopp, Pep Guardiola, more Italian farce, Zinedine Zidane and Jose Mourinho. And there's also some chat about tomatoes too.

2:31Proof that once again, the game podcast really does have it all. First up then, let's talk Chelsea. The big spenders in the summer transfer window so far. I caught up with Peter Rutzler to talk about their moves, the star players who might still leave and the early signs of hope for new manager Xabi Alonso. Pete, great to have you with us again, the great jet setter of the Times Sport team. Not quite sure how your new wife feels about all your travelling and gallivanting all around the world, but we apologise and say thank you very much to Hannah for all your hard work that you've been putting in this summer already.

3:07Speaking of hard work, Chelsea have been hard at work. Probably the busiest of the big Premier League clubs so far. Not only Xabi Alonso, an exciting new manager. Morgan Rodgers with a huge transfer fee. Lacroix also, we believe, set to be announced very soon. Is this the story of the summer? Chelsea ever going to stop spending money and making signings? Well, quite. Three big money signings so far. You include Marco Palestro, who they've signed from Atalanta, who was last year's Serie A Defender of the Year. and of course Rodgers and Lacroix I mean we talked coming into this window about how Chelsea wanted to sort of adjust their approach the sort of learning that they have done from well last year's sort of calamitous collapse in the aftermath of Enzo Mureska walking out of them which should be said and these two certainly the signing of Lacroix who were just waiting for official confirmation of now and Rodgers certainly reflect a change I would say I mean Rodgers of course has got plenty of Premier League experience international player a very high fee obviously beating Arsenal to his signature as well and Lacroix who's 26 a centre-back I think it's been I mean almost an annual conversation that you know we'll have on this podcast and everyone else does that they should strengthen in central defence and in in Lacroix, they're signing an outstanding French international as well.

4:32So, I mean, it's more, in terms of the personnel, more encouraging steps taken, obviously, in the aftermath of appointing Xabi Alonso, a coach whose appointment has been seen as a coup, and I certainly think it is. We've sort of now beginning to get a glimpse of what he's doing. He's keeping a lot under his hat, but obviously they play tomorrow night, our time, so it'll be early morning. I'm getting my head around the time difference I am I'm doing well early morning Tuesday for you where we'll actually get to see what his team will look like but um yeah more big expenditure um Chelsea will need to make sales that's that's kind of the thing that's under underlying how they're able to do this we've seen some outgoings already Marco Correa being a big one to Real Madrid Andres Santos to Manchester United for£50 million Alejandro Garnaccio is left with an obligation to buy and a loan to Villa so they'll need more their squad is probably too big actually considering they've got no European football but yeah an interesting start certainly to this new sort of Xavi Alonso era Do you think there might be a big sale a surprise sale in amongst you know you talk about that big squad you list some of those players there obviously Cucurea first team player but gone to Real Madrid, Santos and Garnaccio.

5:51I'm not sure there'll be rafts of Chelsea fans devastated to see those players go. Is there a big sale on the cards or will it be kind of the peripheral squad players that they'll try and get these kind of 30, 40, 50 million pound fees for? Well, they've got a few to move on. Axel de Sassi spent a bit of last season on loan at West Ham, did pretty well, which will help his valuation. Benoit Barriachile is another. They've got 10 central defenders again on the books once Lacroix signed. So they have to bring that number down. Then you've got Nicholas Jackson, who was on loan at Bayern Munich. His loan had an obligation to buy clause based on appearances.

6:28He didn't meet that threshold. Bayern didn't decide to exercise an option to buy. So he's there. There's a question about the strikers because there's been some uncertainty about Liam de Lapp. Emmanuel Omega has been signed on a pre-agreement from Strasbourg. So Alonso has got a decision to make on his strikers. Jackson's not here on this pre-season tour yet he's still on holiday after the World Cup so there is a list, I mean Philip Jorgensen the keeper is another who I believe wants to look at his options and potentially leave the club so none of those you'd say are like big surprises ones that could happen we've reported that Manchester City have held an interest in Malagusto, Chelsea value him at around£75 million which is a lot it'd be interesting to see if that would be met but that presents a possibility Enzo Fernandes has obviously been an ongoing story considering his personal desire really to to join Real Madrid which was then shut down by the Spanish giants themselves in that public statement during the the World Cup saying that they weren't interested and weren't going to bid now you can never you can never rule anything out to be honest uh even even with public statements like this we've talked about this as recently as yesterday with other transfer stories just saying we've got to be definitive on these things it's hard to be definitive sometimes Tom you're just you're reporting what you're told and what the information you have to hand but Chelsea's valuation of him is about 120 million again will they get that met I'm not sure but you'd expect and they need they do need to make some more sales maybe Pedro Neto is another one who's been reportedly had interest we've seen how inflated the winger market is all of a sudden I mean some extraordinary numbers flying around in that area.

8:07So those probably would be the ones I would throw into the mix as, oh, could they maybe go beyond the general backlog that still has to be cleared and it's quite a necessity. I mean, we spoke to Xavi Alonso today, his first press conference out here in Australia, where we were asking, how big do you want your squad to be? And as he has been at his unveiling and has been now, he's been quite guarded about how he wants his team to play, what it's going to look like and the size of his squad and he was here but he did also say look we want a squad that's going to be competitive that we can negate those those unexpected unforeseen things like injuries and so forth so yeah that'll be very interesting to follow to see how it how it works because Chelsea aren't in the Champions League that's really going to impact their income last year they they sold 300 million pounds worth of players which basically offset all of their incomings they may need they will certainly need to be thinking of getting close to doing that again this summer, not least because they're still under a settlement agreement with UEFA after breaching their rules previously.

9:11Chelsea, the big sale machine continues. Absolutely fascinating. Malo Gusto,£75 million. What a world we live in, Pete. You mentioned Alonso a couple of times there. Throughout the World Cup, I was asking you guys, you know, what's the mood in the camp like? So I think that's probably a good way of framing this in terms of Alonso and what you've seen from these kind of early interactions with him, if you like, or just watching him. do you see a difference between him and Maresca do you see a difference between him and previous Chelsea managers that you've witnessed does it look like a big name manager you know what what have you seen from him in the early uh early exchanges well we had an open training session at uh Allianz Park here in Sydney yesterday had about 5 ,000 fans there it's as with most open training sessions you're not watching their tactical setup for the game you're watching warm-up drills, shooting drills, possession drills.

10:04But there are a couple of interesting things, I mean, particularly about Alonso himself. It's incredibly hands-on. It was something that was mentioned to me before coming out here on the tour that, you know, this is going to be different for the players because he's involved. And he was involved in the session that we saw. It wasn't the session that he was leading. It was his assistant, Gamonforte Lopez, who was basically taking the session. But Alonso was basically assisting it, you know working with the players on some very basic drills um working with them in the shooting drills they had one one drill where they had the wide players and they play a one two with with the with the coach and then they'd go wide and cross it and and he had Alonso was on one side so you had him doing all these flicks tricks trying to like defend against Esteval um and we asked him about that today just you know you like being involved he says yeah I like to feel it and touch it and as long as I can still do it then I'm gonna keep being involved so that that I think is quite new I think that is quite quite different you know Levi Colwell was speaking today and you know he had a very difficult year last year with a with an ACL injury that kept him out and that's obviously incredibly frustrating so he spoke about that but asked about you know Alonso and he says you know he's he's just pinging balls randomly and they're always perfect so I think the players are certainly taking to him Jamie Gittins we spoke to as well yesterday after the session and again And he has got that aura, that sort of impact that hits them straight away before you meet him.

11:27So that changes the dynamic slightly. But yeah, it's still early days. And I think we're very keen and interested to see what the team looks like in these friendlies. They've had a couple of behind closed doors games. We think they've played with a back four in those. Obviously, at Bayer Leverkusen where he had success, he played with a three. So he said today it's going to be very flexible. We're trying lots of different things. But yeah, it'll be interesting to see what it looks like. yeah pete will be bringing you the latest analysis from that first friendly game of the jabi alonso era on the times website pete whilst you're out there as ever crafty little editors that we are trying to get most from for our money you're also keeping an eye on spurs who are they part of the same tour is it is it they're just out there at the same time is that right slightly different so tottenham were in new zealand in auckland they beat auckland fc 2-0 over the weekend and they flew in on saturday nights here to sydney and they're playing in the sydney super Cup with Chelsea so Chelsea are playing Western Sydney Wanderers and then Spurs are playing Sydney SE and then the two play each other on Saturday Spurs go home and then Chelsea go to Hong Kong Indonesia and Malaysia yeah very busy and fun but great to be able to keep an eye on two big Premier League clubs because it's been a big summer for Tottenham as well and just asking you about one piece that's on the Times website now you've heard from their central defender Mickey van der Venn talking as you'd expect him to be very confidently about their hopes but I mean it does kind of reflect the big summer that Tottenham have had doesn't it that they can finish 17th and be nearly relegated to the championship and yet their centre-back is now talking about ah this times are changing the time the good times are here again yeah really forthright from from Mickey Van der Ven he was speaking at sort of the the start of this Sydney Super Cup where they had a photo op sees his backdrop is the Sydney Opera House and in front of him is Harbour Bridge like It was a pretty good place to be speaking to the media.

13:14But you're right. I mean, there's some similarities to Chelsea in that there's a new era sense, and even more so probably with Tottenham, not just because of Roberto De Zerbe and the impact of his appointment. I mean, Mickey van der Ven spoke really positively about him. He clearly loves the way De Zerbe wants the team to play, in possession, front foot. He wasn't exactly subtle about his remarks about how he feels the team will play this season by saying it's going to be very different compared to the manager we had last season, mainly because they will be playing more attacking football that people will enjoy.

13:44Those were his words. But yeah, he was also talking about the signings that they've made, which is an unprecedented outlay by Tottenham. I mean, they've signed six players, three of them for fees. They broke their club record in basically successive days for Matias Fernandes and Sandro Tonali. And Van der Ven said something really interesting, I thought, when he basically just said, for those of us who've been here a while, those signings the appointment to Derby is really important because it shows a new ambition and I think that's what Tottenham fans will certainly want to hear because there has been a sense that will van der Ven stay considering the fact the club have finished 17th in successive seasons you know he's one of their key players and a top performer even last season as well during their struggles so to hear him say that to be so positive about the direction of where the club are going is pretty reassuring and I think that reflects their sort of dynamic now obviously needs to be reflected on the pitch but when you have a player like van der Ven saying that I think that should be that's that's music to a lot of Tottenham fans ears I'd say two big clubs with lots of hope and promise in pre-season we'll see if it continues uh Pete just before we let you go you mentioned transfer stories earlier so it'd be silly of me not to ask about one of the big stories on the Times website now and it was on the back page of the paper from you about PSG star Bradley Barkler tell the listeners about where he stands currently with his situation at PSG and the potential for him to be moving along.

15:09Yeah, so we mentioned about the hyperinflated winger market. And this is certainly part of it. There's sort of this sort of tugging going on between different players going in different directions. PSG were in the race to sign Yandy Amande, fighting Real Madrid, really. I mean, he'd had interest, I think, from Liverpool as well. But those two clubs emerged as favourites. PSG have now withdrawn from that, which is relevant to Bradley Barclay, which we'll get to because that's a newer development to the Barclay stuff but that plays into Barclay's situation because obviously Barclay at PSG he's competing with Kavar Scalier, Dembele, Due, this fantastic attacking team that's won the Champions League twice in a row so he's not starting all the time he's got interest from Liverpool and Arsenal PSG basically are prepared to sell him but they've stuck a valuation on him of£145 million,£170 million.

16:02Now again whether that fee is met I don't know but Liverpool were the club that seemed to be emerging as as most a possible destination for him there's a backdrop to this about uncertainty about whether he'd sign a new contract doesn't look like he's going to do that at PSG but as I mentioned about Diamande PSG aren't necessarily going to sign Diamande it looks like now they've withdrawn from from that that tug of war that might again change the Barclay situation so um it's definitely one to keep an eye on uh But yeah, PSG have stuck a very high asking price on him. And obviously Liverpool and Arsenal have been looking to strengthen in that position.

16:36So yeah, it'll be interesting to see how that develops. Definitely. Gregor Robertson would be very excited about the idea of Bradley Barkler coming to the Premier League, but a long way to go in that one. Pete Rutzler, thank you very much for joining us. As always, you can read the latest from Pete on that tour of Australia on The Times website now. Thanks to Peter Rutzler there. Now it's Ian Whittle's turn. He's in America with Liverpool and their new manager, Andoni Iraiola. Here's what he had to say about some of the players on show and what the new boss has had to say in an interview with The Times.

17:09Ian, thanks very much for joining us once again. Coming from America all the time, you're going to be an America correspondent at this rate, just towards the end of your illustrious career. But you're on tour with Liverpool now. You've just witnessed the first game of Andoni Iraiola's tenure. Now, obviously, it's a friendly, nothing to get too carried away about. and he's missing many, many star names, obviously, post-World Cup. But what did we take from this game? What did you see out there? There was a bit of bad news with an injury to a defender, but also a few little returning stars and young players out there as well.

17:41Yeah, it was interesting, and I'm sure he would say it was, well, he did say it was very worthwhile. You're quite right in your preface. This is really the phoniest of phony wars this time of year, especially in a major tournament year where some of these players won't be playing when the Premier League season starts. some of the players who were involved in the World Cup final, for example. Iriola pretty much said the other day that Munoz, his new signing, the Spanish striker and Alexis McAllister, who obviously were involved in the final, probably won't start the Premier League season. So the squads that both teams, to be fair to them, put out yesterday will bear little resemblance to what kicks off in mid-August.

18:18But to your point, there were a lot of little cameos, a lot of little sort of interesting returns and interesting performances that I'm sure will have given him food for thought as he said there's a lot of the first team players he's not met yet yeah so every every moment he gets sort of time with the squad in a game like this is going to be super worthwhile for him even if it's not a great one for neutrals and the purists you know yeah in terms of that injury I mentioned there Joe Gomez a player who struggled with injuries kind of got a cult status amongst Liverpool fans but in the wider scheme of things this is a problem isn't it for Liverpool they've signed a new player Jeremy Jacquet but he's not there as I understand Virgil van Dijk obviously heading towards the end of his career.

18:57This is a worry for Iola early on, isn't it? Very much so. That was the headline which you mentioned in the first question. That is very much the sort of big takeaway was Gomez went down after seven minutes. Didn't seem to be anyone around him. Now, at this stage of the season, you could cheerfully say, well, of course he'll take him off. It's a meaningless game. Even if he's got a flipping cracked toenail, he's going to take him off in case it worsens. But Iola did seem concerned afterwards. We've had no word yet. We'll be expecting that, I would think, in the next 24 hours, exactly what this injury is and how serious it might be.

19:32But to the broader point, yes, Virgil van Dijk, 35 years old, out of contract in a year, played more minutes than any other outfield player in Europe last season, coming off a World Cup. Apart from that one season, which I think was 2021 when he got that bad injury in the Merseyside derby and didn't play much, He's averaged 50 games a year for his nine seasons or nine and a half seasons at Anfield. So he really has a lot of miles on the clock. I mean, still playing at a great level, as we saw in the World Cup. But, you know, how long does that continue? They've got the young teenager they signed last year, Leone, who played one game and got injured and is still not back.

20:09As you say, Jacquet is actually out here in the States, but wasn't considered fit enough yesterday. I think Iriola was saying he might play the last game, which is a week today in Chicago. against Leeds, I believe. So, you know, you're talking about four guys who on paper, that looks a good core of centre-halves to go into a season with. But when you drill down and look at the injury problems and the histories, it's maybe a concern, yes. Yeah, interesting. One of many areas that potentially Liverpool might be looking to strengthen. You mentioned there this kind of squad this time of year. It does also mean it's a chance for fringe players and young players to make a case for themselves.

20:47Harvey Elliott back in and amongst it after some troubling times in his career. Rio Gamora as well. Just tell some Liverpool fans about what you saw from some of those players in this game. Yeah, really interesting. I mean, for me, two of the most interesting were not kids, were Harvey Elliott, who you've just mentioned, and of course, Federico Chiesa, who has started one game, one league game, in each of the last two seasons. Yet, those of us with slightly longer memories will remember it was the 2020 Euros, which took place in 2021, as we remember. He was named in the player of the tournament, Sorry, in the team of the tournament.

21:18So he had an absolutely outstanding Euros not that long, I mean, five years ago. So, I mean, he still has some untapped potential, undoubtedly. He didn't fit into Arnie Slott's plans, obviously. Will a new manager make a difference? He played yesterday, but again, that doesn't mean a lot. Harvey Elliott, you've already said, this could have been a huge season, the one just gone for Harvey Elliott. He was coming off it and looking like he had a chance to stake a claim in the World Cup squad. And of course, didn't get anywhere near it, didn't even get regular first-team football anywhere. so those two are interesting Kieran Morrison was quite impressive yesterday you mentioned Rio who's had a great summer of course made his England debut in that friendly against New Zealand so I think he Iriola strikes me as the sort of manager who will like Rio and try and get the best out of him I think there's a few players in that category at Liverpool I think Iriola will really sort of take to and the players in turn will take to him I suspect we'll talk about Iriola in just a second but obviously Liverpool beating Sunderland in this one you're out there following Liverpool but just for any Sunderland fans are listening any big takeaways other than that shocking bright pink kit I'm not I can't decide whether it's I can't decide whether it's inspired or disastrous but maybe that's the big takeaway we had exactly that was our big takeaway we had exactly that conversation in the press box and we came down on the side eventually of inspired it helped that at one stage all the advertising hoardings actually were advertising the kit and we're in that same color pink so it's quite a sort of sensory overload at one stage I mean, I really like Regis Labrie.

22:45I know some of the fans sort of had a downer on him for a spell last season, and then he sort of responded brilliantly by taking him into Europe for the first time in 52 years or whatever it was. They looked really solid in the first half. He said himself after the game, he said, first half at 1-1, I was really happy. Everyone did what they were meant to do. Again, they've got some key players missing, the most key of which is the captain, Granit Xhaka, of course. We spoke to him, or I spoke to him after the game about that. Obviously, there was some Chelsea interest a couple of weeks ago. and as far as Le Brie's concerned, absolutely no question of him leaving.

23:15He's there. He's a big part of the future of Sunderland. Yeah, they look solid. A couple of guys to come back. There was no problem with them. Le Fay looks quite an interesting striker. He scored one of the goals. I'd be interested to see what he can come up with this season. Yeah, good news on Granit Xhaka for any Sunderland fans there. You mentioned Iriola a couple of times. You had the pleasure of speaking to him last week. It was on the Times website and on the back spread of the newspaper as well. Lots of interesting lines. I put one of them to Alison Rudd on last week's show and she was quite encouraged by this very low-key downplaying, you know, we are the assistants to the players mantra.

23:48Is that how he comes across or, you know, you're an experienced man, which you've seen a lot of these managers come and go. You've sat in a lot of press conferences. Is this a bit of game playing for Miraiola or is he straight down the line? I genuinely don't think it is. I think he's genuinely sort of uncomfortable talking about himself and being in the spotlight. I think I said in the piece I wrote, and correct me if I'm wrong with some of these timings, but it's only sort of five years ago we had Mourinho, Klopp and Guardiola, managers in the Premier League. And at that time, maybe Cristiano Ronaldo was playing at the time, but I would have said those three guys were the biggest personalities in English football.

24:21Players or managers, Klopp, Guardiola, Mourinho in any given order sort of thing. We don't have any of those sort of monsters anymore, any of those huge sort of animals on the savannah, sort of marauding around the place. It does seem to be the era of the player, you know, and the player's coach. And he very, very much comes across in that way. A lot of sensible words. He genuinely seems, and he sort of put his hands up because I put that sort of Guardiola-Clopp point to him. And he said, look, when you've won as many things as they have, of course, they're big personalities. Of course, they get all the attention and the headlines.

24:59But I'm not like that. We are assistants to the players. They are the guys that matter. I think we're very well aware that there were some sort of personality problems at Liverpool last season and they contributed to larger or lesser extents to Arna Slott's demise in the end. I genuinely would be surprised if there was any of that sort of unsettled atmosphere in the dressing room this year. Iriola seems a very bright guy and he does seem... We spoke also to Milos Kerkhez at one stage. He obviously played for him at Bournemouth. And he's delighted to be having this reunion with him. and he says exactly how he comes across.

25:35He says he's a real players coach and I think Kerkhez's prediction is players will enjoy playing for him and I think the early vibes suggest that's the case. Really interesting. Plenty more to come from you and from Liverpool on this tour. What can listeners expect in the coming days and in the next week or so from Liverpool and from you on the Times website? Yeah, we spoke with Milos Kerkhez. Really interesting interview. I don't think he's done much media since he arrived a year ago and I think that interview will be appearing in a couple of days' time on the website. Liverpool then play on Wednesday at Yankee Stadium, one of the sort of hallowed baseball grounds in this country.

26:10They're playing Wrexham, which will be quite interesting, and as you'll all be aware and listeners will be aware, Wrexham have a phenomenal support in North America, so that will be interesting to see. And then they're back to Chicago. They've kind of been based at Chicago throughout and sort of flying in for games. We're back to Chicago then, and they wrap up the tour on Sunday against Leeds United at Soldier Field, the Chicago Bears' famous NFL stadium. So I think at some stage this week, a couple of the World Cup players are going to come back. As we discussed earlier, Jacquet may play in the last game.

26:41Other World Cup players, I think apart from the two who played in the final, who I mentioned earlier, the rest of the players are back in Liverpool starting their pre-season. So it's still going to be quite a light squad. There's still going to be some big players missing for the rest of this week. But as I say, I think Iriola is really looking forward to it. he made the point, as I made earlier, that there are some players in this squad he's not even spoken to yet. So all these days of training, he's had a couple of twice a day, two a day training sessions. They're all very valuable at this time of year.

27:09Yeah, plenty more to come from Liverpool and plenty more to come from Ian Whittle on the Times website. Wits, thanks very much for joining us. We can hear from you again, perhaps in the next week or so. And you can read Ian's latest dispatches from the Times website and in the print pages too. Wits, we'll speak to you very soon. thanks to Ian Whittle and Peter Rutzler for joining us from their respective pre-season tours make sure you check out their latest work on the Times website now it's time for a quick break but stick with us because in part two I'll be talking to Ian Hawkey about some big moves and big statements in European management we'll be back just after this

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29:51Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I'm delighted to say that for part two of today's show I'm joined by our European football expert Ian Hawkey. Ian, welcome back to the show. Very nice to be here, Tom. It's so great to have you, mainly because it lets me relive the World Cup all over again. We can party like the FIFA World Cup is still happening because we're speaking to you. We're going to be speaking about international matters in just a second, some big managerial changes at some big European nations with some huge names like Jurgen Klopp involved.

30:25But I wanted to start with a bit of fun just because I saw this story last week. And to be honest, Ian, this is the main reason you're on the show, OK? The best story post-World Cup, we had a lot of friction. We had a lot of fraught tension with Argentina. You know, I got myself in trouble on social media with their fans for trying to rub it in their face. This, however, is the best story to come out of the World Cup final. Fabian Ruiz and Gavi both honoured after their World Cup triumph with their body weight in tomatoes. Absolutely fantastic. Tell us a little bit more about this story, assuming that you spotted it as well.

30:57Well, yeah, I mean, what a prize. What a prize. these two players both come from the same locale in in andalucia not far from from seville and the area is very proud of its its produce and particularly its tomatoes so the obvious way of celebrating the success and it is it's a it's quite a success it's not a huge place and it now has three world champions because jesus navas who doesn't weigh a lot in tomatoes is also a World Cup winner. And he was actually present at this ceremony where the two local boys came home and were weighed and presented with their equivalent weight in excellent red flavoursome tomatoes.

31:41Great. So you can confirm these tomatoes are a worthy prize for a World Cup winner. I'm told they are particularly delicious and they would be from there. And there's a bit of a tradition here. Spain is very proud of where people come from And when there's success, there is a tradition of going back to your hometown. I mean, that's not uniquely Spanish. But, you know, the representation of a place, particularly a rural place, is very much to do with food and, you know, what the produce from there is. you may remember in the 1980s uh when john aldridge the ireland striker was playing for real sociedad they won the league and he was presented with his body weight in in meat i think it was beef i think it was steak yes so yeah so it's you know it's not an original idea but but yeah it's a quirky one there's definitely a feature in this ian i think regular listeners always enjoy it when i stumble upon an idea like this i mean we've got to send you down to try these tomatoes haven't we and hopefully get fabian and gabby along 85 kilos by the way fabian ruiz worth of tomatoes 68.5 for gabby absolutely fantastic what a great story pure joy um ian what would you be winning in body weight i think being from salford i think i'd be getting chips and mushy peas but i i was thinking actually i'd prefer a bag of crisps because i think if you know i'm quite a big bloke if you end up with my body weight and crisps i'd be having a fantastic time Tom I'm not sure if you'd have a choice so think about you know where you come from what would you be presented with I mean what would be probably Lincolnshire's probably rain oh Lincolnshire would probably be plum bread my dad would be listening to this going plum bread that might be actually quite light actually not too bad anyway we're veering dramatically off course from what was set to be and will be a really interesting chat because we need to talk about international football managers there's been some huge stories in the past week we're going to talk about jose marino in a second we're going to talk about pep guardiola the italy job as well but let's start with jürgen klopp and germany jürgen klopp the former liverpool manager of course confirmed as the head coach of the national team at the end of last week and starting his tenure with maybe one of the most punchy press conferences i've heard in a long long time ian just for listeners who maybe didn't see the stories that we ran on the times website just tell them a little bit about what he said and perhaps why he said it yes i i mean he was he was quite combative um in some ways um he focused on i guess i guess the exposure that this job brings which is possibly bigger exposure than either of his or any of his previous jobs albeit that they were with very big clubs um and he sort of said to the the media you know you respect my privacy otherwise otherwise that will drive me away which was I you know getting getting the first blow in early I suppose there is a lot of positive vibes towards him at this stage because he's I guess possibly the best German coach in work at the moment and it's quite a competitive field but in terms of experience trophies etc and and the obvious capacity to galvanize teams which is what Germany needs it was a great Klopp press conference overall there was that there was the little bit of aggression but there was also some jokes some Mr.

35:05Motivator stuff which is what they're looking for primarily and there were some quite funny asides and there was a sort of gravitas as well respecting how big a job this is how big a job this seems to him Absolutely, he looks well as well doesn't he? He looks like a bloke who's had a year out of football I thought that at the World Cup when you saw him on the German television network I thought this guy looks like he's pumped and ready to get back into things, which you could tell from that press conference. Just thinking about his standing in the German game, is it as popular amongst German football fans as he is here?

35:35Because part of that punchy press conference, as you say, stems from him being in such a position of strength, I feel. You know, this guy is probably one of the most popular, universally well-liked managers in the European game. I would argue even maybe more than Pep Guardiola, who sometimes suffers from the sneering of like, Oh, the eye rolling. Oh, Pep Guardiola again. You know, everyone seems to love Klopp. Do they love him in Germany? Yes, I think so. I mean, you can think of you can think of small reservations. Occasionally, there's a little bit of sniping that he's he's a bit too eager to take on commercial endorsements and things.

36:13But, you know, you could apply that to quite a lot of very successful football people. um it there is there is obviously a thing in his past when he was at Borussia Dortmund he had to be he had to be a little bit anti-Bayern you know that it's a necessary part of being a Dortmund manager particularly a successful Dortmund manager as he was um and uh you know and and sniping at Bayern occasionally so I I think there are probably some absolute die-hard Bayern fans who who are skeptical about about clop but but yeah he's he's hugely admired and and he's very charismatic and of course he has he has a profile beyond the touchline because he has been very very good on the media and in fact he he was almost more famous as a media analyst when he was a young manager than he was as a as a young manager so he's got all that and yeah i think there's a a lot of benevolent thoughts towards Klopp in Germany.

37:12Yeah, interesting. What do you think about the task that he's got at hand? We saw them at the World Cup slightly underwhelming after that big win in that opening game, admittedly, against Curacao. They've got lots of talented players in there. They've also got a couple of players who are perhaps towards the end of their time at international level. Is this going to be an easy job for him heading into the Euros? I sense maybe not. No, and he was honest about that. You know, I think he said something to the effect of, would we go out and beat France tomorrow? Probably not. So there is a building job to do.

37:46He made reference to the age group teams who have been quite successful, certainly under 17 level, two or three years ago. So he can see, you know, he can see a talent pool coming to the surface. But, you know, they really, they have underachieved terribly in World Cup terms. You know, this was their best World Cup for the last three. And it wasn't a good World Cup. So, you know, he's starting from a low base, which can sometimes be an advantage. Will they be better in the next World Cup than they have been in the previous three? They damn well better be. Otherwise, you know, otherwise I think, you know, he's going to have some questions to answer.

38:29But you would have to say on paper and with a considerable buy and base. Yeah, there's plenty to be positive about. But the interesting thing, as with a lot of sort of high caliber international manager appointments, is whether he can deal with the stop-start nature of it. Because, you know, he's always been a very controlling club coach. So, you know, that's the challenge for both parties, really. Yeah, absolutely fascinating to see how Jurgen Klopp goes in his early months in charge of Germany. As I mentioned in my intro there, there's loads more to discuss. I wanted to come on to Italy now.

39:08We mentioned Pep Guardiola already. There were some talks, some rumours about him being approached for this Italy manager's job. How real were those talks? How close did that come? Was it just a bit of Italian PR to say, look, we're going for Pep Guardiola? Or were there actual talks there, as you understand? Well, he engaged. He engaged with the possibility. that you're right was a feather in the cap really for for the italians but it also showed that you know he was uh he was interested in listening and and i think that probably does speak to a wider thing that that suddenly and this is a little bit of a world cup in fact um international football looks like an attractive thing for really really elite managers in a way that perhaps it hasn't done in the past it may have something to do with where the likes of klopp and guadiola are in their careers in them at their age but yeah it it's it it's something that is tempting a lot of very good uh managers which at all all sort of at the same time as well which is quite interesting and and i guess you know i guess that is some reflection that this was a very very appealing world cup for all its for all its flaws and it uh you know it it made jürgen klopp very excited being there on site and pep guardiola but was prepared to consider an international job which really yeah it's it's a very tough job italy as as several candidates are finding out yes we're speaking of those several candidates what's the what's the stage is the process of this job now because it is as you say probably one of the biggest jobs in european football maybe even world football you know the great italy have become a bit of a mocking you know point for all modern football fans you know think about the young kids who in the last 10 years have become obsessed with football they think Italy a crap at European world football so this is a huge job who's who's been linked what are the talks at now what's it looking like heading towards well it's it's turned really untidy really quickly so Guardiola made it clear that he wasn't a candidate you know and but clearly there had been some interest and a week ago Italy's recruitment operation looked quite slick Paolo Maldini was very much involved Guardiola was listening they had you know a list of reasonably impressive candidates post Guardiola the favorite who emerged was Andrea Pirlo who doesn't have a great club record as a manager but is a you know an icon nationally now Pirlo has a couple of blots in his past which wouldn't be blots probably for a club job but he was involved with a betting agency endorsing it which was headquartered in Russia and obviously deals in betting.

41:59Now, these are two difficult areas for a national job. It's Putin's Russia, which is a country sanctioned by FIFA and UEFA, among other international organizations. And it's also betting, which Italy, more than perhaps a lot of other countries, is very sensitive about. anyway this this previous association which was it was simply a commercial thing has counted against him there's been a big backlash backlash against this and and he is now no longer a candidate and following up those who favored him including paolo maldini are now i think considering their positions on this recruitment board so it's it's all unraveled very very quickly oh goodness me i I mean, honestly, these Italians, they can't get a win anywhere, can they?

42:49Can they get anything right? Well, Paolo Maldini, suave, good-looking, one of the great defenders of our time. He's chatting to Pep Guardiola, and then a week later, he's thinking about quitting his job because he's cocked it all up. I mean, never mind that, is there any candidates left in the frame, or are they going to end up circling back to Gennaro Gattuso or someone? Well, there are good Italian managers around. Antonio Conte is in need of a job. He's done it before. He did it pretty well before with a very, very ordinary Italy team. And he does have the backing of quite a lot of Serie A coaches who, you know, have their voice could be heard in this, but didn't seem to appeal to Maldini and Leonardo, who was part of the recruitment committee.

43:34But yes, I mean, you could do worse than Antonio Conte. and you could do worse than Antonio Conte with a national team that really as you say has been in the doldrums for quite some time, certainly in World Cup terms Conte, Klopp and Tuchel potentially at the next Euros, maybe we get another rerun of Conte and Tuchel on the touchline with what that very intense handshake maybe the most intense handshake ever to have happened in sport let's talk about France, we talked about this during the World Cup shows about Didier Deschamps leaving, where are we at with the Zinedine Zidane succession. Are we very close to an announcement?

44:10Have we had an announcement? I've missed it. We are, I think, just looking at my watch, I think we're 23 hours away from his presentation as the new manager of Le Bleu. Yes, which, you know, it'll be a big occasion. Symbols crashing. Probably not such a zingy press conference as Jurgen Klopp, because that's not really Zinedine Zidane's style. But yes, they'll roll out the red carpet for him for sure. And it'll be tomorrow morning. What about his job that he's got? Because we talked so glowingly and gushingly during the World Cup about this brilliant French side and then the disappointing semi-final defeat for them against eventual winner Spain.

44:53But is this actually quite a challenge for Deschamps? Despite Michael Alisse, despite Kylian Mbappe, despite Dembele, it's still a big ask to follow Deschamps in Deschamps' footsteps, isn't it? and then take this team into a Euros where everyone will be going, well, it's got to be France against Spain. It's a big task. Yes, absolutely. Absolutely. He's got a hard act to follow. He's got areas in which he can trump Deschamps. Deschamps was probably quite unfairly criticised a lot of the time for being a little bit conservative, a little bit cagey. Zidane, the footballer, would certainly seem to be the answer answer to that because you know he was he was obviously a majestic footballer and in partnership with Deschamps for the national team they were they were the sort of yin and yang the water carrier and the artist whether the sequence is like that as managers is is probably slightly doubtful I mean the funny thing about Deschamps Zidane's club career is is very focused on Real obviously two very very decorated spells and not much else at at at elite level but his his his madrid weren't always actually the most watchable team they were very successful but there was there was quite a lot of there was quite a lot of stagnant football a lot of set pieces that sort of thing so that was a criticism he he endured there but the trophies flowed so so much that it didn't matter so much it is it is a it is a challenge because france are expected to do better than they did at this world cup they're expected to maximize that magnificent forward line and and always to you know to reflect the incredible talent pool that that comes through that country consistently and has done you know for 25 years so he needs to yeah he needs to to maximize that and bring the best out of people and work effectively with a very, very powerful, strident and brilliant captain in Kylian Mbappe.

46:56Yeah, absolutely. I'm very excited. I should let listeners in on the fact that Ian, every now and then, sometimes we'll be having chats about pieces and features. I'll say, what's Zidane up to? And Ian Hawkey has been telling me for about three years now, he's waiting for the France job. He's waiting for the France job. So I'm very excited that in this week, we are going to have that moment. Ian Hawkey proved right as often is the case. Let's finish with Jose Mourinho because it is a fascinating strand of this story about these big name managers that you've got Pep Guardiola chatting to Italy, you've got Jurgen Klopp taking the Germany job, which actually Jose, he said that was his idea the whole time.

47:34He said, didn't he, way, way, way back when he started, I'll conquer the club game and then one day I'll go and manage Portugal. And instead, he finds himself with Real Madrid and a team full of Galaticos, basically. We're heading back to that era, aren't we? Yandy, Amande, we believe, heading there to join. Who knows whether Vinicius will stay, but Mbappe's there. Jude Bellingham's there. And there's Jose Mourinho managing them all. Ian, you wrote a brilliant piece about basically this exact theme in the Times pages at the weekend and on the Times website. Just tell us a little bit about how Mourinho's ended up here in his early couple of weeks at Madrid.

48:10Yeah, you're quite right. There's a sort of sliding doors alternative here, isn't there? That Jose Mourinho, as he's often said he would, in his 60s, becomes Portugal manager. This would have been a perfect time because his club career has not been rising, let's be honest. And Portugal needed a new manager and they chose a wise old sage to do it. That could have been Jose Mourinho if Real Madrid hadn't slightly surprisingly asked him to come back there after 13 years a couple of months ago. after 13 years being away um yeah it's fascinating and so and now he enters the champions league the top level of the champions league expectation to win the champions league because that's what real madrid have and he looks around and there's no pep there's no klopp there's no tuchel there's no ancelotti must think well i really am the king of the castle still um and and he'll find a lot of relatively young or at least not European Cup-hardened managers competing with him.

49:15He's going to really enjoy all this, I think. Yeah, he will really enjoy this. How do you think the Real players will react to it? Because modern footballers consume the game in the same way that we do. They follow everything. They follow all the narratives. And let's be honest, Jose Mourinho's narrative has gone down from the special one to the kind of ordinary one to the grumpy one. you know Kylian Mbappe won't have ignored that Jude Bellingham won't have not seen that so is there a kind of pressure to deliver on a coaching level for these players or is he going in as the kind of old sage as you say Florentino Perez has said right enough of this Xabi Alonso fancy tactics enough of this are below a club legend get get Jose in discipline order and let's just go back to the era when where they went you're the best players win off you go yes you're Right.

50:03Discipline and order are very much the trademarks that Madrid have identified for the comeback of Jose. I think his task will be to establish that those things are still part of the Mourinho playbook and that they can work with modern players. Because, yes, there is a significant generational difference since the last time he was there. The last time he was there and did clash with dressing room seniors quite publicly. but he was overall successful during his three years at Real Madrid even if he argued with Ike Casillas and Sergio Ramos and you know the big mouths of the dressing room so I think his task is to establish yes that you know I am I am the person to bring order to a club where if you remember at the end of last season it was it was quite farcical punch-ups in the training ground and so on and and a terribly limp limp title race if you can call it that but yes he's also got to be he's also got to show that he's um he's a he's a relevant coach for elite club football and he's a relevant coach to take on quite a sophisticated quite a dogmatic barcelona who are really developing under hansi flick and you can see from their signings what they want to do they're going to be fast they're going to be they're going to press very high and uh yeah jose marina needs to build a madrid that can compete with that domestically and restore their their status in europe and and it'll have to be you know sophisticated yeah i mean final question then can he do it it feels slightly like his kind of whole career has reached this point where i made the reference earlier to we thought he'd go sideways and head off to portugal and maybe trot off to a World Cup and maybe he will still do that but having this job now means that he could either restore his reputation as one of the great managers of all time with either a Champions League or a La Liga or both or it will all fall apart sacked in ignominy in February and everyone goes ha Jose remember when he was half decent at Chelsea and that'll be the best of it maybe I'm being a little bit extreme there but it does feel like he's at this point can he do it has he got it in Well, the scenarios you've just painted are entirely plausible.

52:23Real Madrid's record at keeping managers is pretty poor anyway. And in the last year, it's been absolutely terrible. And yes, it's a very impatient club. And he has also been quite a combustible manager in his past. He's walked out of jobs before he should have done. the last time he returned to a club with Chelsea it it was very successful initially and and then you know then things fell apart yes yes he can do it you know they are going to recruit significantly have recruited significantly this summer addressing areas of the team where there are problems and you know this is this is the team of Mbappe and Bellingham um they should score enough goals they really should yeah you've always got a chance with those in the team and I think already mentioned as well Mark Cucurea and Jose Mourinho is a marriage made in absolute shockhousery heaven isn't it there'll be lots of rolling around in gamesmanship I'm sure at the Burnabout next season can't wait already excited Ian Hawkey thank you very much for joining me for part two of the show thank you also to Peter Rutzler and Ian Whittle for joining me in part one and as ever thank you very much for listening to the game podcast we'll be back with another episode on Thursday we will see you then

54:09We'll see you next time. marketplace. Choose the right shows, the right audiences, the right format. Then watch the data tell you it worked. You're not buying impressions. You're buying influence. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.