Pep’s last season? And will Palmer make the World Cup?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Five of the top Top eight Champions League places are occupied by English clubs, with Manchester City's dismal defeat against Bodo Glimp, the only blemish in the latest round of Champions League matches. What does the future hold for Pep Guardiola and struggling stars like Rodri? And should we be worried about Cole Palmer's World Cup place as he misses Chelsea's win against Paphos? We'll also discuss Arsenal's continued show of strength, a much-needed win for Thomas Frank, victories for Newcastle and Liverpool, as well as the ongoing crisis at Crystal Palace and much, much more.

0:41I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Football Correspondent for the Sunday Times, Jonathan Northcroft, and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Martin, welcome. Another lovely jumper from you. Thank you very much. Johnny, Johnny on the box. Johnny on the box. Wonderful to see you in the studio, sort of. Gregor, how are we doing? Pumped, ready? I'm ready. Ready to go. Let's get stuck in. Like any self-respecting journalist, We might have had five wins, but let's start with the defeat.

1:10Manchester City. Quite a defeat though. Quite a defeat, absolutely. Thank you, Gregor, for that bit of show of support. Bodo Glimp 3, Manchester City 1. Just wanted to quickly say, lovely goals from Bodo Glimp, we have to say, before we completely ignore them entirely and talk about Manchester City, particularly that second one, that cushioned finish on the run. You could easily have missed that. Absolutely fantastic. But Manchester City, Pep Guardiola, a month ago, they were everyone's favourites for the title. now all of a sudden it's chaos crisis and everyone is wondering about Pep Guardiola's future again Johnny I'll start with you what did you make of this defeat and also because you were at the Manchester derby at the weekend as well where they lost against Manchester United what do you make of the situation at City at the moment?

1:54Yeah I mean the Bodo defeat was a continuation really of what I saw at the weekend I mean I didn't expect them to lose in Norway but I was a bit alarmed by what I saw at Old Trafford, which was a very passive Manchester City. We could start, I'm sure we'll go through the players that are out of form, but in general, just a sort of second gear passive team that you wouldn't have known were playing in a derby, that were chasing a title. And it was echoed in Guardiola's kind of demeanour in the press conference afterwards. You know, he's usually enthused or exercised about something he just seemed very accepting of the situation very flat midfield's been such a strength for City throughout the years and they were very easily played through against by Manchester United and you know we'll go on to talk about Rodri but they just didn't compete in moments in Norway they're a transitional team and it's like there's echoes of what's happening at Liverpool they've had a strange season when you look at results but when you look at it in the round you're seeing a team with a lot of new players that's trying to change identity a little bit as well and is sometimes good and sometimes bad but those ingredients are not ingredients to win titles there might be ingredients to win cups and they might go and do that but this is and I was among those a few weeks ago saying, yeah, yeah, they're in a great position to go and make a title challenge, but not now.

3:39Yeah, I think we all were, Johnny, to be honest. Definitely several of us on this podcast said it a couple of weeks ago. Martin, some of the points Johnny made there again, passive performance, players out of form. You know, Pep Guardiola said after this game, everything is going wrong. It is quite a about turn, isn't it, from Christmas period where they looked so good and so composed and we're all going, this is a strong squad that's been rejuvenated. Now they look a little bit lost. Well, the defence has fallen apart, for starters. Players look tired. Harlan looks very tired. Did very little against Manchester United, very little against Bodo.

4:16Foden has fallen off. Yeah, having been brilliant. Having been brilliant, yeah, absolutely. And, you know, for the second season running, they look a streaky team, if you know what I mean. They get a run going, they look like title contenders and then sort of inexplicably they fall off the map. Rodri would be a worry because the man's had a long injury and injuries change players' careers sometimes. Just wanted to interrupt that. Tony Cascarino has written on the Times website that he hopes he's wrong but he watches some of his recent performances from Rodri and wonders whether he will ever get back to the Ballon d 'Or winning player that he was before after that injury.

5:01Would you agree? Yeah, I can see that. I can absolutely see that because you've seen it happen with players before. You've been players by their own admission sometimes. Jimmy Greaves always said he was never as fast again after getting glandular fever. He said there was a yard of pace that he lost that he never ever got back. Rudhullit, if you remember, changes his position in the team after a serious injury. And we've seen it with all the modern technology and medical technology, I mean, sorry. You know, there's some injuries that are very, very hard for a player to get over. And look, this could just be the first season after it.

5:44Or it could be symptomatic of a bigger problem or a longer problem. And Rodri is so integral to them. They've got Guehi to come into the squad, into the team really, which can only improve it. It can only improve it. So you don't know. But it's very interesting. If you think of six English qualifiers in the Champions League, if you said, well, there's five in the top eight with one game to play, you wouldn't probably have picked Manchester City as the one that would be outside. No, definitely not. Gregor, Martin touched on it there. Big pressure on Mark Gray coming into this Manchester City team to fix this defence, isn't it?

6:30Because all of a sudden, yes, they have got a lot of injuries but at the same time they have signed a lot of players in the last 12 months as well. You have to say that. What do you think is the particular weak spot of this City team at the moment? Well, look, you can't kind of gloss over the injuries and I think it was 11 players missing in that trip to Bodo and it was you know some big players too Guardiol Diaz like even Semenos come in and Guardiol looks like he's going to be really important for them given Foden's troubles John Stones obviously Kovacic's long term these are actually big characters for them as well and that's a big part of it you look at their team in this game and he's playing four academy graduates you'll class Foden as one of them and I know he's an established player now but Pep Guardiola went in the best part of a decade as manager almost ignoring the academy and now he's having to bring in all these kids he brought Max Alain back from Watford we talked about on the EFL podcast the other week threw him in and he did pretty well initially and in this game I mean he was unlucky the ball had bounced it's on an artificial surface it was an awkward one but it was a tough night for him so injuries are a huge part of it on Rodri as well I'd be slightly reluctant to dive in too soon on Rodri because the injuries that you get as a result of a long term injury, so he's obviously had a hamstring problem as well this season that in itself doesn't say you'll never get back to full strength it just is a byproduct of a long term injury so I remember him coming on against Sunderland on New Year's Day in the second half and dictating playing thinking he changed the game for them so I'd be slightly hesitant again on an artificial surface to say he's done I can understand that he's not looked the same player yet but I think we'd all agree let's hope it's not the case Johnny I know you want to jump in but just very quickly Gregor on artificial surfaces because they came up with the Crystal Palace Macclesfield thing for people like me who've never played at any sort of level how much does an artificial pitch change the game change what you're used to loads I mean the act of turning is so different like just planting your foot in the ground to push off is a totally different experience as opposed to doing it on grass and actually if you're slightly older and more advanced in years or you've got a knee problem whatever it's less forgiving and I know everyone says oh no these surfaces are you know much softer than they used to be they're still not grass so it's harder on the body and then just the way the ball moves the way the ball moves across the surface is completely different and you know players like at this level will play on a surface like that maybe a couple of times a year because they've all got indoor, you know, they've got surfaces with undersoil heating and training.

9:21It used to be you'd do that in winter if it was snowing or whatever. You don't have to now because they've all got such, you know, gleaming training grounds. So they're not familiar with it either. So it does make a big difference. It's not an excuse, but it makes a difference. Yeah, really interesting. Sorry, Johnny, you wanted to jump in on what McGregor was saying earlier about the defence and some of those points. Yeah, yeah, no, I mean, of course the artificial pitch played the part, but you've got to give it context. this was Bodo Glimp's first Champions League win. They were. It's a close season.

9:49You know, they're not even in the middle of a league season at the moment. So there's a lot on their side that they could have used as excuses. City had some, you know, on the bench they had Doku and Marmouche and Nathan Ackie. Yes, they're depleted by injuries. But I think, you know, a team that's a manager that spent, what, 500 million pounds again. and in a year on a whole lot of new talent, 11 new players, I don't think we can sort of give them too much leeway in terms of injuries. I think, as I say, the truth is, this is just a team that's trying to find a different identity and is up and down.

10:32The thing about Rodri is, I agree, you can't write him off yet. You've got to give a player of that stature all the opportunity to play himself back. but what's worrying is that he was out of the team when City went on a run of eight wins in a row that had us all saying they were title contenders and he comes back in and they're not winning. And that's, you know, you only have to see him to see his struggles. So my question would be, do they have time this season to allow him to play his way back to fitness? Because if this is Pep's last season, you know, Rodri might be a problem that he needs to leave for the next manager.

11:10Lots of things I want to pick up there very quickly. Do we have time to wait for Roger City this season? Not if you want to catch Arsenal. You've got to hit the ground from now. You've got to be in that sort of relentless form that City were when they've reeled in other, well, Arsenal most recently, when they've reeled in other front runners. As far as artificial pitches are concerned, See, one of the things with modern football is players, certainly players that have been at elite clubs, are not used to the challenging conditions. They used to be different surfaces and stuff like that. Once you get, if you look at, say, if you're in Chelsea's academy, how many bad pitches will you ever have played on in your life once you're beyond 14 or whatever?

12:02Because you don't play for your school team anymore. because the academy won't let you. So you just play on these billiard table pitches the whole time and then suddenly you're in somewhere like Bodo or whatever and it's different. I mean, when you hear West Ham used to train in the car park in the winter when the pitches were frozen, they literally would train in the car park that used to be at the front of Upton Park. I don't know if you can remember it. this great big car park right by the main entrance, and that's where they used to train in winter. Great level, and maybe FIFA will pick that up.

12:41It's a kind of new form of football, a new gimmick. Car park action. Exactly. I mean, artificial pieces have also improved greatly. I mean, when Queen's Park Rangers had one, when Terry Venables was, I mean, that bounced. That used to bounce 20 foot up in the air. If you let the goal kick pitch, I mean, you'd all stand around with your arms folded, waiting for the ball to come back down again. And Terry used to actually wait for the other manager and they'd go into the press conference together because it was far harder for the opposition manager to slaughter the pitch with Terry standing next to him than it would have been under normal circumstances.

13:29because if he hadn't every single opposing manager that went in there win, lose or draw would have gone there's no way we should be playing on this pitch Johnny's right though essentially we keep talking about the pitching stuff here it was Bodo Glimm we've been to smart it in the results everything about this all of that is true there's no real excuse for this performance or result some good initiations there though I think we're always looking for innovations in football car park football and joint managerial press conferences bring them back just finally on City then and Johnny you mentioned it there and I've talked you know so many transitional changes going on we keep talking about new squad have we got time for Rodri I mentioned those Pep Guardiola quotes there everything's going wrong is this the final season for Pep Guardiola do we think if we had to guess now Johnny?

14:21Yeah if we're guessing I'd say yes but it is guessing to be honest he's still got a year left after this one it's becoming almost like received wisdom in football people say oh yeah it's Pep's last season and only Pep himself and perhaps Caldoon at Man City knows but there are as I say there are a few markers and I felt his almost philosophical mood after the Manchester derby was something a little bit different from what we've seen before I've said before I've enjoyed this season from City in terms of the football I love he's trying different things there's a lot of flair on the pitch he's brought a kind of principle of building the team around sort of characteristics of people at Haaland and Cherokee and you know if it is the last season I wouldn't even if they win nothing I'd say already it's a season that City can maybe build on in the future you know this isn't if he is going out I guess is what I'm saying he's not going out playing the same tired old tunes he's still trying stuff and that's very pep yeah absolutely I should say as well I'm asking you lot I definitely wouldn't ask the man himself he's been asked in press conferences many times he's getting a little bit sick of it yeah exactly why do you keep asking me this so I'm asking you guys instead Johnny thinks maybe Gregor yeah I mean look if we went back 12 months to when he signed the new contract I thought then that he wouldn't see it out I think I base that on the fact that a rebuild is harder than than we think you think Manchester City 500 million or whatever they've got to throw at the team it's not it's not that straightforward it's not there's a lot to do and I think that's been borne out I think like of all the signings they've made they've been quite a there's been only a few that have really been hits like straight into the team hits there might be some for the future but that's the future Pep's not going to be here in the future so there's that and then I think Although Johnny's talking about the way they've evolved I think that was also a big A big kind of red flag as well Because it used to be his Stylistic approach Was the dominant force In football, not just English football In football and that's been chipped away And eroded and he's even moving away from it now And that creates more uncertainty So for me It is a guess but yeah I think It leaves in the summer The only thing I would say is that Pep is not without ego No manager, no successful manager is without ego.

16:51You don't really want to go out not on top. You know, Alex Ferguson's departure from Manchester United was stunning in its own way. You know, he went out with them as champions. Thanks very much. You know, beat that. You want to go out, you don't want to go out second to Mikel Arteta, second to the bloke who was your assistant or whatever, I agree with that but you've got to see a route back to the top oh yeah absolutely but I just think that those sort of managers always can see a route to the back you know I don't think you know you don't see too many of guys at that level who look at a problem and think I don't know how to fix this I'm off you know they always think they know how to fix it same as every manager always thought he knew how to get Mario Balotelli you know to stop letting off fireworks in his trousers or whatever he was up to on a Saturday night, you know.

17:51Certainly a dominant narrative of this season. I promise to wait a few more weeks before I ask about Pep Guardiola's future. Another storyline that is becoming a little bit, dare I say, repetitive on this show. Let's talk about Chelsea. A 1-0 win and some shaky moments for them against Paphos, but no Cole Palmer. And this is the bit of the kind of history repeating itself, podcast repeating itself because Martin, it's another week and a very similar line in Peter Rutzler's Chelsea match report. He wrote, Cole Palmer was left out entirely as a precaution due to a small muscle strain, but it was unrelated to his recent groin problems, according to Liam Rossini, and he is expected to be back to face Crystal Palace this weekend.

18:28So my question, we did obviously a big discussion around Chelsea's fitness focus last week, but just on Cole Palmer, guys, should England fans and Thomas Tuchel start to be worried about the fact that he can't seem to play two games in a week and we're in January and the World Cup's 140 days away? Martin? Well, Thomas Tuchel thinks he's got his number 10. by, you know, it's Morgan Rogers. I don't think he would... He'd still want Cole Palmer in his squad, though, I reckon. Well, you'd think he would want Cole Palmer in his squad, but you'd think he wants Jude Bellingham. You'd think he would want a lot of players.

19:00And, you know, sometimes he talks in a way that makes you think, well, does he really? So there's not too many actual proper number 10s about. I heard Glenn Hoddle on the box last night talking about, you know, Neto could play there and this one could play there and that one. But you looked at it and thought, well, you know, Glenn played number 10 and he was an actual number 10. There's not too many people play conventional number 10 anymore. Cole Palmer is one of them. I noticed Thomas Tuchel put Cole Palmer and his three best players of the last year. So you've got to think he hates him. So therefore you've got to think that he would rather have him with than against.

19:45At the same time, he's running out of matches. Yeah. He's running out of matches. He's got to come from nowhere, Virgie. If he can't play two games in a week, you can't make it through a tournament like that. Certainly, you can't make it through a tournament as the focal point in the team. You couldn't be saying, well, this guy plays where Morgan Rodgers has been playing if he can't play two games in a week. Absolutely. I mean, Johnny, you've been covering the England camps. we've got another international break coming up in March. Cole Palmer himself is going to want to be involved in that squad, isn't he?

20:19But that's kind of why I'm asking this question of Chelsea can't seem to play him two games in a week. As Martin said, your World Cup place is a worry, isn't it? It is. Look, Tuchel's always given the impression of really wanting Cole Palmer. And when you try and pin him down on, or you say there's only two per position and you've really got Bellingham and Rodgers, and he does find ways to then bring Foden and Palmer back into the discussion. Palmer's only played 65 minutes for Tuchel, which was in the thrill fest against Andorra away, 1-0. And he's had a frustrating time of it, England-wise, that he couldn't play the next game against Senegal because of, I think, muscle tightness then.

21:08I think unless he plays in March it's hard to justify putting him in the squad given the competition for places the vibe that Zucco wants to create the principles he's laid down I think he would be going back on everything he said if he then shoe-worned him in but do England need him? I think absolutely because he is as we saw at the Euros he's such a big game player as we saw in the Club World Cup he's such one of those guys who can step up I don't necessarily see him as a starter under Tuchel you've got to remember he loves Eze as well so it's another number 10 but he'd want him in the squad you'd want him in the squad to take a penalty at least Gregor it's a remarkable situation though isn't it for Cole Palmer to be in given all his success for Chelsea and for England in previous tournaments that we're in January 26 and we're thinking that he might not make the World Cup yeah I mean I think if he's fit he will go he'll go regardless I do but personally I think Liam Rossini should be more worried about not having Cole Palmer and he's fit and healthy than Tuchel because you've got an embarrassment of riches there yes you want him everything Johnny says is true he's a game changer you can see when he steps off the bench he's not someone who takes time to acclimatise he's just bang he's in and he makes a difference of course you want him but I think Liam Rossini really wants him now as well because it wasn't you know it wasn't an impressive performance it's certainly not a lift off yet in his reign it's very early we're not making any judgements but a player like Cole Palmer fit and healthy will help give him lift off yeah definitely what it looks like to me you know and this is you know this is just guest work and it's just you know a lot of time spent looking at football and seeing history you beat and history you beat you know when there's a guy who needs an operation and they hanging off hanging off no no no we don't you know because then if he has an operation then he's out for the rest of the season or he's out for the World Cup or whatever he looks like a guy that needs an operation that hasn't had the operation and they're trying to nurse it through because this doesn't make any sense they keep coming in and saying no we can't play tonight but it'll be alright for Saturday he's done medical bulletins like that you know it sounds like it's been given to him on a computer printout with a lot of graphs and zones and stuff like that, and someone's going, all right, this is the situation.

23:42And the senior is sort of trying to justify someone else's work, really. With a column, you've always got to write what you think, not what your editor thinks or whatever, because suddenly someone's going to say, well, what about that? And if it's not your work and if it's not what you believe, you can't justify it. and there's a little bit about Rasenia at the moment that he seems like a bloke who's being sort of handed the information rather than coming up with it himself. Tough situation for Liam Rasenia to sort out. We hope to see Cole Palmer on the pitch more than we've seen him recently.

24:16Moving on, just a quick word on Newcastle. Excellent win against PSV, but dearie me, PSV defending Craig. I mean, genuinely, lots of... I don't like this kind of narrative that the Champions League group stage is complete crap all the time, but my goodness me, that was some really poor defending wasn't it as much as Newcastle took advantage really good pressing from the front good to see Visser and Anthony Gordon combining well but PSV dearie me yeah we were talking this morning 16 points clear at the top absolutely dominant I know we get stick sometimes for saying that the Premier League dominates but just look at the table I know it could change but as I say that's far and away the best team in the Eredivisa against Newcastle who were having a really tricky season in the Premier League.

25:02Yes, they made mistakes, but it was a walk in the park. What you look at, what you're seeing when you look at that table, where's Aviliwa? Where is Napoli or Eintracht Frankfurt? All of the major European countries, what we regard as the major leagues, have got a team that are having a bad season in Europe and they're down the bottom and they look as if they're not going to make it into the knockout stages or whatever. whereas the Premier League the worst we can say is that Man City are I think oh are they 10th? They're 11th 11th On the same number of points I should say as PSG, Newcastle and Chelsea who are in the top 8 So they're all on 13th May have to be in the playoffs Yeah You know we could end up with someone in the playoffs on goal difference or something like that and that's regarded as we're having a bad season in Europe you know but we haven't got we haven't got one of those teams that are being cut adrift or something like that.

26:01And if you imagine, if Aston Villa had been in there instead, for instance, probably wouldn't have happened to Aston Villa either. I mean, Aston Villa, you'd think, be up there looking at their form in the league. Look at Tottenham. Yeah, we'll go. Look at Tottenham. They're a punchline at home. In Europe, you wouldn't fancy playing Tottenham at the moment. Same week that the Deloitte Money League came out, I know 15 of the top 20 teams. Can I just point out, every year the Deloitte Money League comes out, and every year I have to point out one thing. They had Fiorentina in the, I think it was the top six richest teams in the world the month before they went skint.

26:37Right. I mean, properly skint. I mean, not just, oh, you know, of course, money's a bit tight around here. Properly skint, ended up in the fourth division skint, that skint. So ever since then... Not completely trustworthy. Ever since then. I know anyone can make a mistake you know and you know it's a long time ago but ever since then whenever I see it you're thinking I'm not sure I'm really not sure but point taken yeah just a very quick one just before we take a break I just wanted to ask about Liverpool a good win not my accountants put it like that good win for Liverpool Mo Salah back on the pitch looking a little bit stuttering formed some strange misses from the Liverpool forward as well Johnny I wanted to ask about Dominic Saboslay to me as much as his mistake in the cup game against Barnsley widely ridiculed and criticised he's starting to look to me like the kind of star man for Liverpool and potentially a future captain absolutely when you think how he dragged them through that really tough period he's already shown leadership quality captains Hungary of course and I remember seeing him for Hungary in the Nations League against England for 5-6 years ago and he at 21 he just stood out as the kind of focal point of quite a big national team and you thought there's something really special there, not just as a player, but in terms of mentality.

28:01And I think we're seeing it now because he was, some thought he was going to leave last summer, you know, in the clear out, in the sort of transfer churn, there was quite a bit of speculation that Subozlai would be one of the casualties. and it sort of typifies him that he's stood and fought for it and he's played about six different positions he plays about six different positions per game quite interesting in the formation with sort of 4-2-2-2 the old Brazil sort of I remember John Barnes at Celtic that went well well he had terrible fullbacks that was John Barnes you need absolute energy on the flanks if you're going to be that narrow in the middle but when it works I mean it gives you two pivots to protect the defence it gives you two number tens two strikers, two forwards I mean Frimpong as well, Frimpong now I'm still not entirely convinced about him defensively but he's one of these players where you know what he's going to do, the defender knows what he's going to do and he still can't stop it that one where he went around the outside and kind of does the kind of Bikai Osaka wriggle past them little touch little touch little touch you know just a little drop I could go now now I'm going it doesn't matter it's too late you can't get him do you think anyone sorry no no it works for him and Kirker that's what I was going to say it works for those energy sort of fast players on the flanks do you think anyone at home reading the newspaper when they see 4-2-2-2 actually understands what the hell it looks like or whatever because I can remember I can remember when Barcelona played Arsenal it was at Wembley Guardiola was playing I was sitting next to sitting next to Shep sitting next to Rob Shep and he loved the formation and you're looking at Barcelona and they were like all over the place it was like the most fluid you couldn't get you couldn't get a handle on it whatsoever and everything so Shep's turned around to me and he went I've got it so I went yeah you reckon he said yeah I've got it I've got yeah I've worked out what it is.

30:11So I went, right, okay, what are you making it, mate? So he said, it's two, two, so I'm writing this down, two, two, okay, and two. I went, right, okay. What's the frigging readers meant to do with that? What are readers meant to do when they see that, the two, two, two, two, two formation? I mean, it's just... Formations in newspapers, eh? Absolutely, yeah. Do you want a graphic for that? It'll never catch on. We've got loads more to come in the second half of the show. But it's time for a quick break. Before we go to that break, I just wanted to let you all know that we now have a new home on YouTube.

30:47Timesport has its own channel as part of the Times YouTube channel. If you search at Timesport and YouTube, you'll find us there. You get to see Gregor's lovely face, Martin's lovely jumper, and decide for yourself whether I do in fact look like the work experience kid, as producer Neil told me this week. Loads more still to come, as I say, on the show, including a much needed win for Thomas Frank and how to solve a problem like Crystal Palace. But first, a little quiz question. Robert Lewandowski last night became the fourth player to score 20 plus goals in the Champions League for two different clubs.

31:18Who are the other three? Find out after the break.

31:33Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel with me in the studio. Gregor Robertson eventually, well it was a bit of a team effort wasn't it, coming in with the answers to the quiz questions. The three other players were, can you remember them? Ronaldo. Cristiano Ronaldo. Harry Kane. Harry Kane. And Neymar. And Neymar are the three other players alongside Robert Lewandowski who have scored 20 plus goals in the Champions League for two different clubs. There's a pub quiz question for the weekend when you're enjoying a pint.

32:03Johnny Northcroft has had to leave us. he's off to interview a Premier League manager, find out which in the... Oh, yeah, hasn't he stormed out in a row about who gets the coffees in? I think, well, that's what he told me anyway, Martin. Maybe you know better, but I think he is going to interview a Premier League manager and you can find out which Premier League manager in the Sunday Times online and in print this weekend. Just wanted to wrap up the Champions League action in midweek. Another dominant win for Arsenal. And I saw, I'm sure a lot of listeners maybe did as well, the good funny exchange between Theo Walcott and Wayne Rooney on the touchline doing the punditry for this game.

32:37Theo Walcott asked Wayne Rooney what he thought about the Arsenal team's strength in comparison with Rooney's 2008 Manchester United team. Rooney's very swift response with smash them was gone down very well online. But it does raise an interesting point. I wanted to kind of slightly steal Theo's idea, but I think, you know, put it in a better context rather than judge them against the team that won the Champions League and the title and add Cristiano Ronaldo, Carlos Tevez, Berbatov and Wayne Rooney in attack, which I think is pretty good. how good do we think Arsenal are historically in comparison with some of Arsene Wenger's great teams from down the years that's the kind of context I wanted to put it in because Arsenal are doing so well this season but until Martin Samuel this is your cue to go yeah but it's true go on you can keep I've teed you up perfectly say it say it they've got to win the league they've got to win something until they win something you've got to win the league otherwise we've got to fill we've got to fill about at least three months I'd say but otherwise maybe more until they win something You can get best turned out in the paddock, right, at Newmarket.

33:36It doesn't mean you win, you know, it doesn't mean you win the thousand. I'd love to be best turned out in the paddock. Best turned out, no, it's not a human prize. Oh, is it not? It's for the whole seat. Got it. But it doesn't mean you win the Guinness. You know, it's, there's no such thing as best in show. You've got to actually win the league. So when they win the league, then we judge them. Until that point. Until that point, I'm going to keep asking you stupid questions about how good I think this Arsenal team are. I will kick with you the same answer. Listeners will get in touch with me and tell me how good this Arsenal team is.

34:08Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. But Gregor, the one point as well I wanted to think about with this Arsenal team as well is the forward line as well. Victor Giochias in the goals in this game against Inter Milan, but still question marks around his kind of suitability to this Arsenal team. I think there's also an interesting point about if you picked Arsenal's kind of most common starting 11 or most common appearance makers, minutes played, etc. they might win the title with a front three of Saka, Jokeres and Trossard. I mean, when you think of the great Arsene Wenger teams down the years, Saka, obviously a very, very good player, would get into some of those teams.

34:41Would he get into all of them? I'm not sure. This is what I mean in terms of how good this Arsenal team are. I think when you asked that initial question about how you'd compare them to some of Wenger's teams, I would say that the depth of the squad is actually better than any of Wenger's teams. so that all feeds into the same conversation because Trossard is playing brilliantly this year Martinelli's playing the best football he's played for a few years because they all know that they've got competition as they arrived they've got like they're stacked in that forward line Madueke arrived he can play on the left as well so everywhere you look people know that they have to be absolutely at their best to be in the team and that you know that just raises all boats around you so like I think when you look individually at players and you're trying to compare them to the past you always look back on the past more fondly and arguably there are there's a great body of work yeah of course that's the other thing there's a great body of work you've got to come back to look at this in the future but two things the squad depth and the defence as good as there's been the defence for you would get into any of the kind of Adams Bold era or the one after Campbell and Ashley Cole Ashley Cole would get in as left back in this team wouldn't he?

35:57absolutely absolutely I think Ashley Cole will be the left back I think Gabriel is an exceptional player and would be regarded as an exceptional player through the ages I think Declan Rice is an exceptional player Timbers and would be regarded as such Timbers so consistent never ever puts a foot wrong brilliant defensively struck up a really good partnership with Saka going forward I think he's outstanding and then look you said Giocares has got in the goals Jesus was in the goals that's the really interesting thing and that again is about suddenly there's competition in centre forward area it was Giochires was signed to be the missing piece in the jigsaw puzzle he's not proven to be that but they've got they're still top of the league as Jesus is finding coming back from injury and finding full form as Kai Havertz is coming back from injury so now there's even competition for centre forward they look in good shape Yeah Arsenal fans you can prove Martin Samuel wrong we love these debates about combined Arsenal teams Mikel Arteta and Arsene Wenger here as tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk UK across North London a good win for Thomas Frank and Tottenham against Borussia Dortmund 10 men admittedly but Dominic Selanke speaking of strikers back and in the goals that's a big thing for Tottenham isn't it Gregor to have him back leading the line and this was an important win for Thomas Frank yeah it was and like this from watching the game it looked like the the atmosphere was much happier getting an air going in front yeah getting a goal and then obviously we're just although again can we talk about the decision I don't know I was almost in Tony Cascarino territory where I wanted to go to bed but actually I turned over I turned over and watched Arsenal after that because it's just it's another VAR red card yeah you freeze frame the ref goes over to the pitch side monitor looks at the freeze frame there's a straight leg studs planted high up a leg and yeah he watches it back but that's the first thing he looked at and he flicked the ball and like his leg was a fraction of a second later was planted and it's not it's a VAR red guard you can absolutely bring it in mate your campaign has begun remember last week do you see the City United game at the weekend yeah Dallow that everyone wants him sent off for I agree the ball starts off up there because Doku slightly miscontrols it so where Dallow is trying to play the ball but suddenly the ball's gone because Docu's now got it under control.

38:25But actually, where his foot was, it was completely in relation to where the ball started out. And a split second later, Docu's got it out of control and has moved somewhere else. And now he's followed through. Now he's hit the player. And there's guys on the box that have played the game and you're thinking, and they're saying, well, it looks like a red. And you're thinking, if that was a red. They've seen it more strongly than that. They've seen it as a stone wall. A stone wall red. And you're looking at it thinking, if that was a red when you were playing, you'd have made about 52 appearances.

38:57I mean, it's ridiculous. Also, the fact that no one watching it occur in real time, it occurred to them that it was even... Some even didn't think it was a foul. It was that quickly. Yeah, it was that quick. The fraction of a second between, like, Doku flicking the ball away and then getting the contact. Anyway, sorry, we've gone off an amazing... Never read in a million years. But this was another one, and it is getting to the point where it's like, it's tiresome. and it was kind of it didn't spoil the game but it also sort of devalued what happened after that for Spurs yes they won the game yes it was positive they'll be delighted that it happened that they were reduced to 10 men that they got the second goal that you know it was a positive night and Frank was going off and high-fiving people as he walked down the tunnel but it was slightly devalued by that moment because they were playing against 10 men they need to follow it up with their win at Burnley at the weekend and then they've got Eintracht Frankfurt away to try and see a cure a place in the top 8 Martin, just finally from you, just your overall view of the Thomas Frank situation at Tottenham.

39:52We had Alison saying on Monday that she thinks Tottenham fans have been too quick to kind of discard him and seem to want him out very quickly. We've talked about other managers on this show being part of projects, long-term changes at clubs, injuries playing a part. What do you make of the Thomas Frank situation at Tottenham with how under pressure he is? I wrote a few weeks ago that you've got a board that wants to be liked and it's a really dangerous thing for a manager because when the board wants to be liked by the fans and aren't liked by the fans, and there was a video, I don't know if you saw it, of, I want to say Vivian Lewis,

40:30and the fan having a right go of, why don't you sell up and all of this sort of stuff. And you think, right, okay, so they want to be liked and now they're being chased out of the stand with people shouting at them and stuff. and I just think it's very dangerous for a manager because there's a very easy win if you want to be liked by the fans and the manager's not popular with the fans you know you can get a very easy win and make yourself very popular by sacking the manager and a lot of boards do it you know David Pleat's quote if they can't sack the manager they think about sacking the manager if they can't sack the board they definitely sack the manager and it's absolutely right.

41:14I can remember Kevin McCabe when he sacked Brian Robson at Sheffield United. It was a big long statement saying, I just wish, you know, the fans and, you know, saw everything that he did for this club and you think, but you've just sacked him. You've just sacked him. If you saw everything that he did for the club, why didn't you keep him? Yeah, interesting times. He gave in to the fans because he obviously wanted to be popular. Yeah, interesting times ahead at Tottenham. I'm sure we'll be talking about them again on Monday's show. So speaking of clubs in a little bit of crisis and popularity waning, let's talk about Crystal Palace.

41:47How do you solve a problem like Crystal Palace is the kind of question for the final segment of the show. Structural reform for the entire financial system of the league. We haven't got time for that. So let's just say, let's sack the manager. That's a good, succinct answer. But the reason I bring it up is that hot on the heels of Mark Grahi's departure and Oliver Glasner saying he's definitely off at the end of the season. John-Philippe Mateta has told Crystal Palace that they lack ambition and that he wants out. A story from Gary Jacob on the Times website with the striker accusing the club of not keeping their promises to him on new signings and contract terms as he pushes for a potential move to Juventus in this transfer window.

42:25Lots of people having views on the kind of Crystal Palace hierarchy. Lots of comments being made about the idea that they, you know, the greatest moment in their history, winning the FA Cup, beating Manchester City with a brilliant team, loads of young players, loads of homegrown talent, players like Mateta as well, great finds gems brilliant manager in Oliver Glasner and six months later it's all gone is that the reality for a club of Crystal Palace's size or is there an alternative world in which they can prosper and thrive from that situation going forward Gregor? No is the answer Well I take you know that's what Martin said there is is actually important about the financial structures and like I've seen a lot of people make the argument Martin's one of them that you know everything's weighted against them and that's true but I actually think that's less important than Palace's place in the food chain like even if even if Palace had like a kind of you know had really wealthy benefactors which you know they do although it's been a bit of a basket case let's also remember that there's the whole John Texer thing now it's Woody Johnson he's a rich man like he might invest a lot of money it might be easier for him to invest money if the financials were different but Mark Gay would still be in the last year of his contract and want to leave Oliver Glasner would still be in the last year of his contract and want to leave Eberici Eze would still have wanted to leave for Arsenal Michael Alisi will still have wanted to leave for Bayern Munich or whoever else wanted them you can go on this is the reality for Crystal Palace so what Crystal Palace have to do and I've done well over the years we should say when Doogie Freeman was director of football is sign the next guy and they've often looked into the championship to do it and they've signed Adam Morton signed Romain Essie who's just gone on loan to Coventry like that's been part of their vision or they've gone to France and they've signed someone like you know they've signed like Mateta or whatever that's where they've come unstuck so I get the financial rules argument but I actually don't think it would have changed much in the circumstances Yeah I mean look yeah I don't I don't accept that everyone would still want to leave because if you if they had more of a chance, if you had, you know, Mark Gwerhey didn't make a big fuss in the summer.

44:41He could have done what Alexander Isak did, but he didn't. That doesn't strike me as a player that wants to leave and will do anything he gets. That strikes me as a player that if Crystal Palace could properly have a go, might even have stayed at Crystal Palace. What would be properly having a go for Crystal Palace then? Regular Europa League? Champions League. Champions League. If they could put pressure on the Champions League clubs, if they were allowed to invest to put pressure on the Champions League clubs, because you go and remember Steve Parrish, what's coming in now, the update on profit and sustainability, which is the squad cost ratio.

45:25Talk to Steve Parrish about that and what clubs it actually will affect most greatly. And it is Crystal Palace, Brighton, Bournemouth, all of those middle-ranking clubs that really, in my opinion, are the heartbeat of the league. Because that's what keeps everyone entertained every single year is that suddenly there are these teams from nowhere that have got a chance. because if you leave it to that Elite Six, or people say Seven with Newcastle, but Newcastle almost hamstrung in the same way that Priestley Palace are. But if you leave it to that Elite Six, they ain't very good. I don't know if anyone's seen Tottenham in the last two or three years, but they're not very good.

46:13Brighton are good. Yeah. You know, Brentford are good. Well, I was going to say, is this the reality for this season we're getting so excited, I say we, I am, about the kind of topsy-turvy nature of the league. Everyone beats everyone. that middle bracket below the kind of top three is so uncertain, but the reality will bite at the end of the season and in the summer, when if you're Crystal Palace or if you're Brighton, you'll have your best players pinched, you'll have your manager pinched, and you can't aspire to that. Is that what we're saying? Look, it's always been that way. You've always had to sell.

46:41Those clubs have always sold because of ambition, player ambition, and also the need for money or whatever. What has changed is your ability to spend. so you can't properly have a go you can have a go up to a certain level but then it gets you get a little bit too near and now no more son this is not for you and I wrote before the season started that I thought the top six would be the big six I don't think I'm going to be too far wrong I might have got Tottenham and Manchester United I had Manchester United in the top six I had Tottenham in there as well I might be wrong about Tottenham Yeah, maybe swap out Villa for Tottenham.

47:24But the rest of it is, you know, I don't think I'm going to be wrong. And a lot of people thought Manchester United couldn't possibly make that ground up. Of course Manchester United can make that ground up. That's the whole point. Manchester United can afford a bad season. But Crystal Palace or Brighton or Brentford can't. Because if they have, with their limitations, if they have a bad season, they're relegated. Greg, a final word from you on that and Martin's point about looking forward to the end of the season and some of that kind of big six chat, Aston Villa as well maybe in there. Yeah, like I've often kind of also said that like, you know, money ultimately tells and it's the reality.

48:02I think Spurs actually are outside the top six in wage bill now. I think Aston Villa are above them. That's quite possibly true, yeah. So like you've got to look at the kind of expectations. We often talk about Spurs' expectations being like conflicting with reality, both in terms of their history and where they are financially compared to the rest of the league so like yeah money does tell but coming back to the middle of clubs to do what Brentford and Brighton do so successfully so well so consistently takes enormous intelligence like enormous levels of intelligence they actually have broken the mould they've done things that no other club have done or they pioneered a system heavily leaning upon data to punch well above your weight.

48:55Crystal Palace did that for a few seasons with some really smart recruitment, as I said, often led by Dougie Freeman, with a really good appointment in Oliver Glasner. The way that the law of the jungle is that you will get picked off, you will get picked apart. I still think there's reports at Mark Gay's wages £300 ,000 a week at Man City that's going to be at least three times what he was on at Crystal Palace yeah so like you know he might be a good guy he might have he might not have kicked up a fuss he was angry when he didn't get the Liverpool move there's no two ways about that he just didn't do the thing that everyone thinks is so toxic I had a different view of that too I don't think it is that toxic look at Isak now with his broken leg imagine he'd done that playing for Newcastle being the good guy not for me so like the way the way football is everyone has ambition everyone has like to look out for number one that's true for clubs it's true for players it's true for managers and unfortunately it's true for Crystal Palace when you look at who they're competing with yeah absolutely Palace fans if you want to have your say on the situation at your club get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk or even Brentford or Brighton fans or Bournemouth fans as well trying to break into that top bracket we'll leave it there for now Gregor Robertson Martin Samuel and Johnny Northcroft thank you very much for joining me Football League fans me and Gregor will be bringing you the latest EFL show tomorrow so make sure you're checking your game podcast feed for that and we'll be back with the regular show on Monday we'll see you then