"Player Power...give me a break!"

0:03Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. So where does the power really lie in the modern game with the star players on the pitch or with the big bosses in the boardrooms on today's show we'll discuss player power in light of the end of the transfer window as famous names are passed around and deals are cancelled last minute we'll also discuss the league cup semi-finals the continuing crisis at sheffield wednesday and look ahead to the weekend's action as liverpool host manchester city i'm tom clark and joining me today we have the chief correspondent for the times and sunday times martin samuel the former millwall marseille and island striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me as usual and Gregor we're going to start with you a bit of therapy for you I think you briefly mentioned this on Monday's show and you were so upset about it and so enraged that you then went back and wrote 1200 words on the time on it and the time did it well we were discussing it last night and my colleagues were like Gregor's done a really good piece see if you can get it in the paper and I was the night man last night put it into the old word counter 1200 words?

1:05Jesus Christ. Not getting that in alongside a League Cup semi-final. But anyway, you get to tell us about it now. Headlined brilliantly. Brilliantly. I think we can read this and we hear it in your voice. Think player power is out of control? Give your head a wobble. Yeah, I cringed a wee bit actually when I woke up this morning and realised I wrote those words. You did write those words. A rare case of editors and sub-editors not misleading the reader. That is literally... Write how you speak. but it is in the context of you saying that Premier League clubs still have the upper hand just ask Harvey Elliott, Dwight, Dwight McNeil and Loney Aaron and Salmino yanked out of Borussia Dortmund because Chelsea feared they might try to sign him yeah I mean if you just think back to the end of August and September and what the kind of the conversation was like around Alexander Isak and Ewan Vissa and players player power getting out of control and you know players going on strike doing all sorts of things that made them morally bankrupt and forcing through moves, yada yada.

2:06I made the point then, and as I say, I'm banging the drum again because I feel quite strongly about it, that overwhelmingly the power resides with clubs. And I think we've seen that this window in a few relatively high profile cases. The first is Harvey Elliott, which I think is a minor tragedy. After the summer, he was player of the tournament at the under-21 European Championships. England captain in the winning team his stock was never higher it was clearly time for him to move on from Liverpool because Liverpool were in the midst of spending 450 million quid time to move on he still actually wasn't allowed to leave until the Alexander-Isac saga was completed so he left for Villa on deadline day he kind of bided his time as nice boys do and then it's turned immediately turned into an absolute nightmare for him he's been left in limbo because the deal, he had to make 10 appearances for the loan deal to turn into a permanent transfer, a£35 million transfer.

3:09And Eumery quickly realised that he didn't want to sign him. And as I made the point in the piece that there are other forces at play there, the profit and sustainability regulations, like Villa wouldn't really probably have to act like this if they weren't so shackled by spending rules. but because he made one substitute or two appearances I think for Liverpool before he left you can't play for a third European team and so he stuck and the transfer window came and went again I made the point in the piece Liverpool or Villa could terminate this they could come together and terminate this deal but neither of them want to lose out financially or they don't want to do it Liverpool understandably think they essentially sold this player for good in the summer that was the deal The 10 games was like Was just a foregone conclusion And Villa have gone back on that So this idea that Players are disregarding Agreements and the Sanctity of a contract and all that Clubs do it just as often, in fact far more often Tony And I were talking about this earlier It's so common For these kind of deals, usually for a new Contract, let me say you've got To make 20 appearances for a new contract now it's 10 appearances or whatever for a transfer that's even more sort of perilous but so often you get to 18 or 19 or whatever it is and the club says we're not going to honour that and you've got they say you can take out the contract and continue to play or you won't play again that happens all the time so that was the he's the kind of most you know the most well known player I think in this the Dwight McNeil thing was different he you know there was just radio silence after a deal was agreed by all parties including Everton and Palace he'd agreed personal terms, he'd completed a medical deal was done Rog was pulled at the final minute, again like, you're at the whims of a football club and then the last one I referenced was Aaron Anselmino who most people won't have heard of who is a young Chelsea player 20 years old he was on loan at Borussia Dortmund first half of the season and then with very little explanation that loan deal was cut short Chelsea need a centre half because they've got injury problems there they failed to sign Jeremy Jackey so this whole kind of carousel of circumstances was going on around and his collateral damage you saw him in tears as he was yeah yeah which Totman put out as well when I thought that was quite pointed yeah he was in tears as he as he bade farewell to to the staff and whatnot still might have thought he was coming back to Chelsea with a chance of playing though and then it turns out actually they're going to recall Mamadou Saar from Strasbourg another 20 year old defender from the French League bring him to Chelsea and send Anselmino to Strasbourg so again these are all slightly different circumstances but it just underlined to me that the last week or so of the transfer window you need to if you think player power is getting out of control or whatnot it's in a fraction of transfers overwhelmingly Hummingly, players have very little power or agency over their careers.

6:27Yeah, yeah. Martin, you were nodding along with a lot of what Gregor was saying there in relation to profit and sustainability and things like that in terms of what the reasons are for this. So I'll bring you in in just a second. But Tony, as a former pro like Gregor, your reaction to some of the things Gregor was pointing out there and this kind of debate that we have so often about, oh, players make the rules these days. Do they? Where do you stand on it all? I think the players can make the rules. it's a lot easier if you're a very powerful like Isaac or, you know, in that position that you can change the narrative.

6:56I totally get that. But there, well, two cases there of two young players who are not really getting much say. They could turn around. Arvie Lek could have turned around and said, I'm not going to Villa. But Arvie Lek's just come off the back of a European tournament, won it, and thought, I need to play football. I need to be somewhere and playing. Quite clearly to me, and I can't prove this, because I think Unai Murray's made his decision literally before he's got there that I don't know how much football he'll play for me. And it might be the club going, you know, another body comes in, someone you might be able to use, but it's quite clear he's not fancied him as a player.

7:32And that's the sad thing for Harvey Elliott because he's been in limbo really all year as a 22-year-old. Now, could he have had slightly better advice? Could he have asked for a permanent move and said, I don't want to go on loan, I want a permanent for me? it really was though that's the whole point actually this was in all but name a permanent transfer the only reason it was a loan with a view to a permanent is to kick it into the next financial year that's not Villa's fault you should say it's not Harvey Leic's fault that's the rules and the mad cartwheels that clubs have to go through to comply with spending rules now so we need to make that point but for everyone when this transfer happened it was a permanent transfer yeah yeah Martin your view on some of the things the guys are making the points here because as you say there's lots of different strands to this as Greg is pointing out.

8:18Well, clubs are forced to behave in this way by a set of artificial constructs around revenue streams and profit and sustainability. But the power has always been with the clubs. Two things can be right, by the way. Alexander, Isak can behave despicably, but also the clubs can behave despicably. Nice to see you just naturally using Gregor Robertson's catchphrase there. Those things can be true. We'll come back to the despicable at the end as well. But two groups of people are both capable of behaving despicably. I do think going on strike is really poor behaviour. Equally, they're going to be treated more and more like cattle because that is what the rules are dictating.

9:09You know, the moving around of money, as Gregor just pointed out, the moving of, right, so it takes place in this way because you've got to finance it this way because the numbers don't work out otherwise. And they're all artificial. They're all artificial. They're all, let's pick a number out of the air and go, right, that's the line and you can't go over that. And you go, well, you're not, the circumstances of that club might be completely different and the needs of that club might be completely different. How can you just dab these set lines? And so this is where you end up with kids, and our kids really in football terms, being just pulled out of one club.

9:52I mean, the Borussia Dortmund-DeShazberg thing is terrible really because if they pull them out and they bring them back to Chelsea, you think, well, okay, it's a loan transfer he signed his contract with Chelsea the loan gets him experience but now he goes back to Chelsea then just to farm him out to another club and you've got to you know upheave their club of course is multi club ownership but then you've got to sort of rebuild your life and that and I look at this all the time and this is not a transfer this is just a simple change of circumstances I was talking about it with someone in the week you take a player like Neto Neto it's all going well for netto at Chelsea.

10:34He was playing really, really well. Yeah, started the season brightly, didn't he? One of their best players this season. They changed the manager, the new manager comes in and it all changes for him. You know, he's not been put on the transfer list. He's not been sent to play with the kids. But he's not. He's not where he was before the senior turned up. He's one of the consequences, isn't he? Yeah, he's not. Which does happen when you change manager mid-season. It does happen, but what I mean is, so you look at it from the player's point of view and think, he did nothing wrong, Netta. It's just that the manager has changed and now the manager wants a different sort of set-up.

11:17And that's the lot of the footballer now. And it's going to be worse because of all of these artificial constraints. Just using Martin's phrase there, that's the lot of the footballer now. Obviously, we're in danger of being like, oh, it's better in my day type things. Tony, you've said, oh, I would have made a lot more money if I'd played now. But with this in mind, players being traded like cattle, does it make you look back and think, God, I'm glad I played when I did, or would you rather have had the big signing on fees you get now for sitting on the bench? I've done okay. When I look back, I'd still think, actually, if I told you in 1994, I was getting 12 grand a week.

11:53Right? In 1994. That was a lot of money. Yeah, yeah. I'm not saying it wasn't, but I'm just saying it was a different type of, you were signed. You were saying to play. As saying to play, that's my point. Gregor made the point in his piece, which for me was the line that all players want to play. There are the odd ones that might kick up a stink or whatever, but generally players want to play. That's what their dream of a young boy that turns into a pro footballer is. I think of when I first got that opportunity of playing non-league football and then going to a professional club like Gillingham and then moving up the ladder.

12:27I would never have ever I just wanted to play and progress and progress play at the highest level you can but the money does come important obviously and look just one person I want to reference see you can flip side and go the other way where someone a player takes advantage you think Jesse Lingard when he went to West Ham got a number of goals in the season he was on loan there from Manchester United and the year after West Ham won him but he's gone for the biggest deal with a one year deal at Nottingham Forest which he has admitted since I think that he was badly advised Yeah, yeah. Yeah, so, but I totally get what Gregor's coming from because, as Martin has alluded to, the financial change or regulations within the sport have made it possible or you feel like you're, if we don't do it, other clubs are going to do it or take advantage.

13:12Well, they're also hoarding players. They're hoarding players. So, yeah, I mean, Chelsea should say, like, you know, there's been reports anyway that they think, they made the point that Bruce Dortmund were trying to persuade him to sign permanently. I just think what? He signed a seven-year contract in 2024 so he's 18 months into that again who's got the power there? Chelsea you can just say no guys you're not signing him and tell the player don't listen to what they're saying we're trying to plot our future for you instead what they do is take him from a Champions League club where he's clearly happy and also he had some injuries he didn't play all the time but when he was fit he played they bring him back what they're saying to him essentially is the other 20-year-old defender that we've got at Strasbourg that already worked with Liam Roussignor.

13:59We think he's better than you. So we're going to bring him here and put you to a conference league club. So if I'm the player, I don't really look at that and think, you've got my best intentions at heart here. It's doing the right thing for you. And there's a lot of people actually made the point below the line. Chelsea own the player. They're within the rights to do that. But as I say, if you're the player and again the next 20 year old comes on the market and they sign him you're just not seeing any plan for your future at all so just the final thing it's by design isn't it how the club want to design and it's not just a Chelsea problem is it it's around the number the loan market actually is broken really that's a bigger conversation the final thing I want to come back to is the idea that Isak and Co act despicably because as I made the point with Jürgen Strand-Larsen the other week and I mentioned in the piece too like I said he could have gone to Chammies League Club in the summer now he's gone to a club in Crystal Palace whose Premier League status is not certain and he's not scored a goal all season from open play like it's not entirely his fault he's playing for the worst team one of the worst teams in Premier League history so I made a point like you can possibly see why when those opportunities arise you want to grasp them you go let me go to Newcastle and look at Isak now he's nursing a broken leg Ikitiki is playing out of his skin who was the other player they signed before him in the summer if either of those two things had happened like so Isak breaks his leg playing for Newcastle are Liverpool coming back in for him?

15:36No if he wasn't granted the move in the summer and Ikitiki turns out to be playing as well as he is now would he be going back in for him? No that move's dead in the water so all I'm saying is when that chance is there and you have the power and you're a player with enough stature to grasp it I don't blame them well let's come back to the other point you've just made you said that's a bigger conversation the loan market is broken we're not going anywhere what do you mean by that? I just don't think football clubs should be allowed to hoard this number of players and I don't think they should be allowed to influence the outcomes of other leagues either going down the pyramid you and I have discussed this in the football league podcast or the French league what Chelsea are doing is outcoming potentially sorry influencing the outcome potentially of who finished in European places in the French League because of their whims.

16:27I've been against the loan movement for 10 years. See where it gets you. Seriously. No, because the minute you do anything with the loan, the minute you say anything about the loan market, all the clubs go nuts because they're perfectly happy. I've always said you can't run a shop with somebody else's stock. You shouldn't be able to run a shop with somebody else's stock. And it happens all the time. So what, you think they should ban loans? I've never been in favour of loans. It's difficult, that, because young players, clearly, a lot, if you look at England's team, you'd have to let them go. You'd have to let them go.

17:05People would have to. You'd have to let Harry Kane go to Leighton Orient, not just on loan. And then you might have to buy him back. Or someone would buy him back. Yeah, well, I was going to make that point of how many really good players have literally become men from the loan market, especially of a certain age. I wouldn't go as far as mine. You know, I'm talking like Martin Sand there of Harry. I watched Harry Kane at Millwall at 18 when he was there and it was the best thing that could have happened to him because he did a number of loans and he manned up, got a bit stronger and better. So I would still think there's a place for a loan market, but like everything in life, it just goes from one place to another and another.

17:45It's a bit like the VAR decision. Oh, today it's, this is a foul. Don't bring a VAR turn. No, I know how many Do you know what I mean? Where is the line in the sand? And the loan market has become, where is the line in the sand? The line in the sand could be the number of players you have. You're allowed to register. Go down to the lower divisions. Go down to the proper lower divisions. I could remember writing about this, got to be 10 years ago, Waltham Forest in the Isthmian League, I think it was 100 and something players they'd gone through in the season, 118 or something like that, players in a season.

18:20on loans. Didn't get lost in the forest. I mean, it was ridiculous. And they weren't the only one in that league. It was... Didn't Bill and Ricky have a huge turnover? There was another team with like 97 and stuff like that, where players are literally coming in, playing two games, going again. It was ridiculous. There's got to be some sort of control. I accept what you say about youth players or whatever. I can see the benefit from it, but not at this level. then I'd rather have no loans at all than what we've got at the moment, where, as you say, there's teams, you know, and it leads to, at a certain level, corruption would be a very strong word to use, but collusion, shall we say, it's who you know, because we can all remember how Alex Ferguson sorted loan deals out and stuff like that, and then when Peter Barr sacked his lad, they lost the loan players, didn't they?

19:17Was it Peterborough? Was it another club? No, no, no. It's another club. Maybe it was when he was at Preston as well. I think it was Preston. Yeah, it was Preston. Yeah, it was Preston. Yeah, so, I mean, well, let's talk about the window in general then because we've brought up some big, big topics there. It shouldn't exist. Do you want to? You get rid of the window. I would get rid of the window completely. So you'd get rid of loans and get rid of the transfer window. I wouldn't necessarily get rid of the transfer window. No, no, no. I would have limitations on loans. I would get rid of the window.

19:48I'd go, absolutely, I would go back to how it was before where there was a cut-off in April and then that was it. And so you couldn't buy the centre forward from the other team that's been threatened by relegation or whatever. You couldn't do that. West Ham couldn't go in, say, now and buy Nottingham Forest's best player and try and stay out that way. But I would go back to the old system because I think this frenzy, frenzy, this panic that there is. Or why? Yeah. If we lose the rugby correspondent tomorrow, why can't you just go out and get another rugby correspondent? Well, you can, because that's how business works.

20:27That's how life works. You lose the rugby correspondent, you know, Alex is going nowhere, but you lose the rugby correspondent, we would go out and get another rugby correspondent. I don't understand why football keep voting for all of these limitations on their business. It's to dramatise the whole thing though, isn't it? That's part of it. But it's ridiculous. Tom, just on that, I watched Lake Norian last year and they had four loanees that came in that done brilliantly well for them. They went from the club and this year the loan hasn't worked for Lake Norian. And there are many clubs like that.

21:00Yeah, absolutely. And if you're building your club around Lone City, it's all so temporary. Watford, if you look at Watford, who lost another manager this week, didn't they? because if you're the manager of Watford, you're just waiting to be sacked. So he resigned. He actually resigned. So he actually decided, rather than wait to be sacked, I'll just sling me up anyway, you know, and avoid the rush. But Watford, when it first started off, it was all these loans from the other clubs. It was one of the first multi-club ownership. But if you are a small club, it might be the way to get you up somewhere.

21:37Yeah, but didn't they do away with their academy at the same time? And so you're thinking, where's the long term? Everything's built on saying. But it then comes back to the fans demanding instant success and instant impact. So if you can then, you know, there's not a lot of patience in football either, is there? I mean, I know that fans get very upset when you say things like this, but you cannot run football according to what the fans want, for God's sake, because the fans will change their mind, you know, according to, you know, all my friends who are West Ham fans or whatever, you know, who's out, who's in, it changes on a week-to-week basis.

22:12I could show you WhatsApp messages that are completely contradictory within four days. Yes, well, let's... You know, so you can't run your club on a permanent vox pop from the North Bank. Yeah, let's hear what some fans have got to think. Get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Lots of views discussed there on the future of transfers and player signings and player power. Just quickly to wrap up the transfer window, who had a good window? Anyone have a good window? Manchester City, Semenyo and Gaye probably the best. Connor Gallagher to Tottenham a good deal. Palace spent 80 million on Brennan Johnson and Strand Larson.

22:48Liverpool have lined up Jeremy Jacquet for the summer. Martin delighted to get Axel de Sassi drag him over the line and into the training ground at last. There's nothing that you've said there. I mean, Semenyo and Gwehi I think will come good but it's not as if Man City's season has turned around since they've been there. I mean, it's as inconsistent now as it was going into the transfer window. So, yeah, if you say which two players, you go, yeah, those two, they're good. But apart from that... Didn't have to do much homework on them, did they? No, that's true. No, exactly. You know what you're getting.

23:20You know you're getting the best player at Bournemouth by Country Mile and the best player at Palace. Yeah. But speaking of Stran Larsson as well, Tony, what do you think that kind of... Because they didn't sell Jean-Philippe Mateta in the end. So they've got Eddie Nketiah, Strand Larson, Brennan Johnson, Mateta. I mean, it's a punchy forward line, isn't it? A punchy forward line. Yeah, it is. What do you see as the future? Well, I personally, look, we know Gladstone's not going to be there next year. So the new manager comes in. I think they've got a perfect... When Nketiah went to Palace, I said, he's not a player up front on his own player.

23:54He needs a partner. He's not big enough to lead the line. He's a really neat and tidy. He's a good finisher. He needs a partner. Now, obviously, Gladys never chose really to play Mateta alongside Nketiah. With Larsson, who's a good runner as well, you can get into the channels and make things happen, and great in the air, obviously he's very, very tall. I think they're perfect to go as a two. You know, if they look at Larsson and Nketiah for next season, and okay, you might say, well, that's a big risk they played this style all season. I'd go, if you've got two two forwards like that, They remind me so much of Quinn at Sunderland and the boy alongside Kevin Phillips.

24:33That reminds me of the sort of partnership working off tandem. And I think Palace have got that. Use that to your advantage and I guarantee you'll see a massive impact in goals for the club. Yeah, very interesting. We'll see what the future holds for Crystal Palace and some of those players. But as I said, Palace fans get in touch with me as well. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk with your views. Just before we take a break, a quick reminder that we now have a new home on YouTube. search Timesport and you'll find our new channel where you can check out Tony Cascarino's amazing glasses and you'll also find episodes of The Rock our rugby podcast with our amazing rugby correspondents who aren't going who aren't going anywhere who aren't going anywhere they couldn't find a replacement yeah absolutely inside but it is the perfect listen for all your six nations needs so as I say it is time for a break which means it's time for a question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz which you can do on the Times website and as we're going to talk about Liverpool against Manchester City in part two that fixture is the theme.

25:28In the 1991-92 top flight season, who helped both of these clubs finish in the top six, making 15 league starts for Liverpool and then 18 for Manchester City? Find out after the break.

25:51Welcome back to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino Gregor Robinson and Martin Samuel back again with the answer to the quiz question what's he going to make up this time once I got once I got a multiple choice I was back up yeah but you I feel like you had it there in the end the answer was I sort of had it a little bit before but I just needed further confirmation the answer was I've forgotten Steve McMahon Steve McMahon he did play for both clubs Liverpool and Manchester City in the 1991-92 season you can do the rest of Bill Edgar's quiz on the Times website now Now, before we get stuck in to the League Cup semifinals and the weekend's big games, let's mention another brilliant piece of journalism on the Times website, this time by Paul Hurst.

26:32He's our Manchester man covering both City and United, but he's also the journalist leading the way on the crisis at Sheffield Wednesday. He wrote a big read a couple of weeks ago around Christmas time about the situation there with the administrator and what had gone so wrong with Chancery's ownership. He's now written a brilliant piece now, which is headlined, why Sheffield Wednesday are still in administration limbo after 100 days. The Championship Club's future still hangs in the balance with questions being asked about the suitability of the consortium chosen to lift them out of the gloom.

27:03Martin, this was also a part of your column this week on the Times website, and you make the point that this is the ultimate test for football's new regulator, isn't it? Well, yeah, this is huge. It is far bigger than just being about Sheffield Wednesday, and I say that with all respect to Sheffield Wednesday followers. but this is going to be big and partly the reason why I think there's a delay is that in May, who owns Shuffle Wednesday becomes a matter for the regulator. At the moment, it's the EFL that are looking at it but if they haven't come to a decision by May then it becomes the regulator's problem and it's fair to say the regulator thinks that it's going to become the regulator's problem as well and that the regulators know how important it is that they get this right because what is also quite possibly going to happen in the next few years is that there will be a change of government and the Conservative Party and reform and you've got to consider that reform could be forming the next government or that there could be a right-wing coalition and neither of those parties are supportive of there being a regulator for football.

28:19Now, the only way the regulator for football can really justify the work that is being done there is if they can say, for instance, we'll look at what we did with Shuffle Wednesday. We've got the right owners in at Shuffle Wednesday and look at the club now compared to the club before. And this is why football needs a regulator. The alternative is that they get it wrong. The Sheffield Wednesday position isn't greatly improved. The fans remain quite mutinous. And then people who are against the regulator can turn around and go, well, it's not doing the first thing that it was meant to do, which is sort out the ownership problems that there are in football.

29:01So this is a huge decision, particularly as the consortium that has been chosen by the administrator is not without its issues. The preferred bidder, this is. The preferred bidder. The preferred bidder, Bould and Roma. And Bould has got a football, a sport analytics company that appears to have been made with profits and poker. You probably know him, Tony. Yeah. James Bould. He's had an involvement with Sheffield United. Yes. And it didn't go too well, the analytics side of it with Sheffield United. They nearly look like going straight through the division. He owns Dunfermallin. Where I'm told he's quite well liked, would I be right in saying that?

29:44Anyone who knows anything about Scottish football? But lads, no? Okay, we'll move on. I don't know him personally. And the other, I didn't know if he'd ever played against him. Yeah, well, I know of him. He's been around football and he got an involvement in Sheffield United and Sheffield United used the analytics and the AI to help him. He is happily kind of labelled within all articles as a former professional gambler. Yes, absolutely. The optics of a former professional gambler taking on Sheffield Wednesday in their current state is a quite fascinating one. And Roma's businesses, which is online, it's one of those businesses, and it has gambling as part of its online concerns.

30:27So the suggestion is that Sheffield Wednesday's new owners would need the similar sort of dispensation that Tony Bloom and Matthew Benham have got that they will keep their gambling separate from their football club interests. Again, the complication there is that a lot of the rules about involvement in gambling were written after Benham and Bloom already had their clubs. Whereas this, so really the choice was you either kick out two of the better owners in football or you give them a dispensation that they will keep their gambling interests separate from their football club interests. This one, they're not in football yet.

31:10You're actually inviting these people into football and saying, oh, but we'll give you a dispensation. It's massively complicated. The idea of whether the regulator works or not could hinge on what job they do with Sheffield Wednesday. The other complication, of course, is that a good or bad owner of a football club doesn't reveal himself. on the first day no, absolutely often doesn't reveal themselves for several years so well kind of navigating all these complications just now is a big test for me I've always thought the real test of the regulator will actually be how it deals with the problems when they arise further down the line I mean everyone talks about a fit and proper owner's test as I just said it's very hard to know you can look at the source and sufficiency of funds and think about things like sustainability and yes some of these things are raising minor red flags with these guys but ultimately like when you look at who's actually wants to own football clubs often they do have risks involved so it's protecting them once it's having protections in place and like a kind of backstop actually they're going to be the real test regulator yeah as mine says an incredibly complicated situation Paul outlines it really well One more point.

32:31And the other complication is the reason they are the preferred bidders is they're the best offer by probably in the region of 12 million. And so if they end up owning Sheffle Wednesday, Sheffle Wednesday will not start next. The money will be there to pay off all of their creditors, including the former owner. and they won't start next season with a points deduction. If they say, oh, we're not going to go with these people, but we'll go with Mike Ashley, say, or one of the other bidders, that, I mean, it's not half, but it's a substantially lower offer that in all likelihood they won't be able to pay off their creditors.

33:21So the first thing the regulator will have done for Sheffield Wednesday is getting deducted about 10 points. In League One. In League One. Yeah. So once again, you know. The good times are back, as they thought, when Chancery leaves. You know, the fans, the idea that the regulator is on the side of the fans, which he is, he's certainly meant to be. Sheffield Wings fans might look at that and go, yeah, well, thanks for your help there, mate, but we were doing all right until you got us deducted 10 points. The data in poker is incredible, okay? Information that's given out for advantages and just seeing patterns of play.

34:03And James Baldwin is in that world. And he did have a, well, I don't know if he's still got the AI company that was very successful in America. Short circuit. But that data was used in poker. And I know a player who was in the World Series final who said everybody at the table had data on everybody else. He said it was the weirdest concept that everyone had. and they've all got teams around them. So it's really the day who's going to win the AI league, if you like, you know. It's crazy because one's going to come bottom as Sheffield United were at the start of the season. We've all based on data of team selection, the opponents they're playing.

34:38So this is all being used in sport. I don't know James Board personally. I know players who know him and I'll leave it at that. But it's a weird concept, a mad concept. but this is the world we're in yeah really complex situation as Martin has outlined and as Paul does in his piece go and check it out on the Times website now we've done a lot of big picture chat so let's talk about some football and goals and kicks and tackles and things on the pitch many money boats the league many money boats the league cup semi-finals we're going to have Arsenal against Manchester City in the Carabao Cup final the top two teams in the league going head to head for the first piece of silverware which has a nice ring to it two teams taking this competition quite seriously Pep Guardiola as Paul Hurst has written in his match report on the Times website today.

35:25Conflicting relations with this competition sometimes, but you wonder with a season of flux, whether he's looking at this chance to put one over Mikel Arteta. He doesn't seem to be able to do it in the league. How do we look at this final? How do we look at these two semifinals? Well, the semifinal I'll tell you first is the Chelsea one against Arsenal because the onus in any cup competition is on the home side. If you're the home team in the first leg and Arsenal completely outplayed Chelsea and fortunately for Chelsea, They went away with a 3-2 defeat. And the strange thing was for me was the onus was back on Chelsea again as the weight in because they're losing in the tie.

36:01So when they offered very, very little, and me and Greg were chatting about this often. I said to Greg about when Arsenal went and won the league at Anfield and they needed to win by two, and they did. There was an idea behind that. And so you've got to give a bit of benefit of doubt to Rosinha for going to Arsenal thinking… Trying to be cute about it. Big Q, don't go out of the tie, which was the complete opposite of what Newcastle was the next night, were gone in a tie of 20 minutes gone in the second leg. Yeah, it was completely bizarre, the Newcastle won the second half. So unlike Eddie Howe as well, I was expecting a bit more cuteness, as you say, that we'd seen in that first semifinal second leg.

36:39But, I mean, the Newcastle performance was shocking in the first half, let's be honest, much better in the second half. When you get three subs at 45 minutes, you're probably, as I talked about at the weekend this is a common theme of 45 minute substitutions or 46 minute because that's when they come on as you said in your column at the weekend though it can really hurt these egos of these players that are playing yeah because you're literally in and out in and out because in the old days and look there were less subs but if I go back even relatively you know 10 years ago most people who get taken at half time take it personally as they're the problem because you used to be given the you got 10 minutes 10 minutes yeah you got 10-15 minutes to sort this out you've got us into this mess you get us out of it that sort of attitude that's completely gone there in the game Gregor what did you make of these two semi-files I mean and going into it we've got a situation where it's the oh it's only the league cup but actually this is a huge deal now for both sides isn't it for two very different reasons Arteta to win a trophy again for the first time in a couple of seasons and also for Pep to show that this inconsistent City team can still get the silverware yeah I mean look you saw in this game that if a team go at City which is brave you know and try and be right in their face and press them high and stuff they can tear you to shreds they're played they're just like as dynamic as like Liverpool were under a club you're getting some breaks they're siding through the middle of the pitch and Semenyo bombing on and Tijani Reinders bombing on Marc Moushi's pace just playing as a kind of front two there's a lot of pace and dynamism there but Newcastle you know played into their hands and like Newcastle are great at doing the high press and trying to suffocate the opposition in their final third but they got it badly wrong on a number of occasions and they were cut to cut to ribbon so I still like fundamentally don't don't trust City to be consistent and to be consistent to play you know teams aren't always going to make it that easy for them basically and yeah it's a fascinating final because Arsenal there's a sort of sense that Arsenal can use could use this as a springboard you know like they're stalling all the competitions this year clearly the Premier League and the Champions League are the big ones but I think it would be the first trophy in six years wouldn't it if they won it it's like it would be big for them even though it's the you know the competition that's least important relatively speaking it would feel like a hurdle cross that you know that have got over trophy there you go done it yeah Wigan in the FA Cup at home you know they're going to go deep into that competition probably as well yeah all the potential there when we're talking about City and I keep mentioning inconsistencies.

39:15And that brings us to the kind of final topic of the show. Loads of big games this weekend. Manchester United against Tottenham in the lunchtime game on Saturday. Arsenal at home against Sunderland. Maybe that'll be a tricky test for them. Wolves against Chelsea. Liam Rossini were desperate for a win in that one. But the big game of the weekend, Liverpool against Manchester City on the Sunday. This, for the last, what, six, seven years, has been the kind of title six-pointer at this stage in the season. It looks like the kind of battle for second or maybe, you know, basically hand Arsenal the title.

39:44if Liverpool can kind of beat City and Arsenal get that victory. So I just wanted to ask, with City and Liverpool now, having such inconsistent seasons, they've made lots of signings, who's in the better position going forward for the next year, 18 months, in terms of the players they've got, the managerial situation? Who do you think's in the stronger position? Gregor, I'll start with you. I'd go with Liverpool. I think largely because I know there are people who are saying Slott needs to do this and that and the other to save his job, but I think Slott's pretty safe. and they have invested a lot of money and there are players who are starting to look like they're coming to the fore and acclimatising to the Premier League I would imagine they'll strengthen the other areas that they need to such as defence, possibly full-backs so I would say Liverpool and I'd say City there's still enormous uncertainty about Pep Guardiola's future beyond the summer and their overhaul has flickers of potential and all these things we just talked about the pace and the dynamism and the way the team's evolving but it's not been smooth for them and it just doesn't look like a Manchester City team Martin?

40:56I would say Liverpool for many of the same reasons that Gregor said mainly that whether Slott stays at Liverpool or not is in Liverpool's hands whereas whether Guardiola stays at Manchester City or not is not in Manchester City's hands. As it has always been, it's up to him. And nobody quite knows whether he's going to be there or not. And so therefore, Liverpool are more in control of their own destiny than Manchester City are because Manchester City haven't yet got over the hump that Arsenal had to get over when Wenger left, that United have never really quite got over since Ferguson left. they've still got that to come if Guardiola goes.

41:44If he stays, then, you know, they're potentially getting there, although the defence still looks like an accident waiting to happen sometimes. And in the final, you know, they're not going to have Guay either. Yeah. But they will have them against Liverpool. But yeah, I would say Liverpool because they've got much more of a say in their future than City have at the moment. Interesting. I've got a follow-up, but Tony, What do you think to the first point? Well, it's a really tough question to answer because I look at the Gehi signing, which I thought was a terrific one, which most people would do.

42:18And then you think Semenya. Wow, that's a big player that's come into City. And then you look at Verz. Incredibly quickly as well. Now Verz is starting to play like Liverpool would have expected. Liverpool are, I'd say, a little bit better defensively, even though they've conceded a shed load of goals. Than City? Than City. Yeah, I do think that. I do think that's going to be resolved. I know City. For next season. I'm not talking this season. I do feel Liverpool, with the young lad that's been injured. Xhaka, Jeremy. Oh, no. Liani. He's had a big injury, and I think there's going to be competition.

42:52I do think Liverpool will be better defensively. This year, though, you'd argue that City will probably be a bit better. But I do think slightly that Liverpool have an edge. But it's hard to write off ever Man City. The midfield area, Rodri, he's got to come to the fore. He's not going to play. Because he's got to be way better. We have to see, even if he's close to the Ballon d 'Or winner, he's not even been close to that this season after a terrible injury. So there are things. I think Slobosla has been a really good one this season for Liverpool. He's played really, really well week in, week out.

43:26But I do think Liverpool have a slight edge, but there's not a lot in it. This is going to be a hard call. It did surprise me that you've all gone for Liverpool. But does it all hinge on Pep? No, it does all hinge on Pep. because I've got a really strong squad it's an amazing squad I'm looking at their team from the other night and this is City's team yeah Foden and Aki like basically the whole team apart from Foden and Aki were signed since the beginning of last season it's a lot of new players in a short space of time and they're just not all going to live up to the predecessors to be brutally honest about it and they aren't some of them might develop to be that as I've said this many times but but there's a lot of talent in there Jerky looks fantastic Rinders looks brilliant no do you not think yeah absolutely we haven't even mentioned the top goal scorer in the league yeah they've got the best best striker in the world he wasn't playing the league there were players who were injured and players who weren't playing I'm just talking longer Greg you know you're pretty much given that he's going to get 20 goals plus every year aren't you yeah I just think it's been a big overhaul and will continue to be so that's one part of the aspect of the sort of the changes going on at set and the other as the manager and even the evolution of the team under the manager but the potential of a change of manager in the near future both those things are big disruptions yeah really interesting Liverpool and City fans if you've got a view on the answer to that question which club is in better place for the next year to 18 months get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk chaps we'll leave it there Tony Cascarino Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back on Monday to discuss the weekend's action we'll see you then Thank you.