PREMIER LEAGUE PREVIEW: PART ONE

0:04Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. A meaningless kickabout or a sign of things to come? Arsenal comfortably beat Manchester City 3-0 in the Community Shield and on today's show we'll ask what it means for the reigning champions and new Manchester City manager Enzo Maresca. We'll also discuss Chelsea, take a closer look at the relegation battle and ask who needs more signings in the final weeks of the transfer window. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea, it's Peter Rutzler and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me as usual.

0:47Team, here we go. It's Premier League preview week, part one or part nine in mine and Alison's case because we've been doing it for the last couple of weeks already. We've got Gregor back and Pete back as well. So as I mentioned there, fascinating little battle in Wales in the Community Shield. Things I never thought I'd say in pre-season, but there you go. I think it probably did tell us quite a few things about how this season might start, at least, even if it's not about how this season might finish. Gregor, what do you think?

1:16Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I agree. I think the hierarchy was crystallised a little bit by this game Arsenal's performance in particular the community shield on the whole it doesn't mean anything really I think only I think it's 8 of the 34 winners since the Premier League started have actually gone to win the title so it doesn't mean anything essentially but in the performance itself Arsenal were totally dominant really there was the odd pocket where City kind of found a bit of space in the box and Haaland had a half chance he looked a bit of a yard off it There's players still finding their feet, Anderson the same, but Arsenal looked like Arsenal and I think that's pretty ominous for the rest of the league.

2:01That's an interesting way of phrasing it, isn't it, Alison? And I think you agree because you said yes when I was asking the question, which is a very rare, very rare success for me on this podcast. But Greg is saying Arsenal look like Arsenal is maybe what we're going to see in these early stages of the season whilst we're waiting for all these new managers to make their mark on these teams and we start going, well that's Maresca's City, that's Alonso's Chelsea, that's Iriola's Liverpool. Arsenal could just be Arsenal. Yeah, they looked like a team that haven't had to go through a transition, but they actually didn't look like Arsenal in a sense.

2:35They looked better than Arsenal. Better than the Arsenal of last season? Yes, they were more enjoyable to watch. They were a joy to watch. They were playing attractive football. They were not reliant upon set pieces. There was a boisterousness to them for sure, and they look pretty mean at the back in terms of how much they're going to concede there. But I felt there was a joyousness to the way they played as epitomised by Martin Odegaard. And we've said on previous podcasts, let's hope we get the Odegaard we saw at the World Cup who was smiley, smiley, Marty. We liked him, but he looked like that at the Millennium Stadium.

3:16He looked like somebody who's, I don't know, switched with a doppelganger or something in terms of attitude and... His energy as well, isn't it? We keep talking about it, don't we? But it is so remarkable. It's like someone else slipped into the position when no one was looking because he wanted to go on holiday or something. And then he's come back refreshed and enjoyed the World Cup, come back refreshed. His goal was a thing of beauty. Yeah. Sort of thing. But sort of thing when he first peaked at Arsenal, you were expecting week on week. Then he disappeared. I know he had injury problems. and that can be a terrible thing to bear for a player.

3:49And it means if you're 5 % off it, you look like you're awful and you're not, you just know what you were. But they, and you know, he leads by example. And if he's smiling, you sort of felt, everyone else felt they should smile as well. And so there was an absolute, a sense that they were enjoying themselves. As Gregor says, you can do that in the community shows. And there was a bit of joking afterwards, wasn't there? How much should you even celebrate winning it? It's always a joke. They were excused celebrating it because what they're really celebrating is another chance to celebrate winning the title.

4:25So that's fine. You're sort of doing it as a cohort of success. But I thought it wasn't just that Arsenal didn't look like a team that have had to struggle with new manager or loads of new players. They look like a team that are progressing from where they were, where they finished. And what we hope to see was a team that played more attractive football. And they've proven, if they don't now, then that's a huge shame because they've proven that they can. Pete? I think with Arsenal, my sort of concern with them, obviously they've got the stability of having a manager who's been there for a long time, was just, you know, how fit are they going to be?

5:02Like, how much has last season taken out of them? How much has a World Cup you've taken out of them? Declan Rice come back late not involved and Kiyosaka blah blah blah but yeah they've got a salibre injury to contend with as well exactly and I think that was probably the bigger takeaway for me is that actually their baseline is much higher and I think the midfield felt very different obviously Declan Rice wasn't playing but Myles Lewis Skelly played exceptionally well I was seeing a bit of noise around him and I wondered how much lovely pass what a lovely pass for that first goal ah beautiful and turn yeah turn and pass Spatial awareness is great.

5:37The kind of turn and pass that, again, if it was in a Premier League game or in a Champions League game, we'd be waxing lyrical about it. But because it's in the first minute of a Community Shield game, you're like, oh, good pass. Yeah, nice. But then also Bruno de Marais, just that balance. I think the one thing about him is that he can play forward, he can play between the lines. And if you're a Martin Odegaard, that's great. You want someone finding you in those pockets. And it was just quite a nice, refreshing, different sort of feel potentially for Arsenal. But I think there's a maturity about them.

6:01They know what they're doing. This is six years into Arteta now. and that's a massive advantage and I think that's what we're getting across.

6:08Gregor Robertson: The only thing I would say is they scored up inside 30 seconds and kind of changed the dynamic of the game. Like, yeah, we saw a bit more of a freewheeling Arsenal but they were 3-0 up within 48 minutes. And that was a lot to do with positive play. It was also to do with City leaving them spaces. I'd totally back up while I was in saying about Odegaard. The confidence is surging through him. He's a little nutmeg on Anderson in the first half. The turn on Rico Lewis in the second half that opened up the space that I think Saka shot when he could have crossed for Havertz. There's little moments that he's got a swagger.

6:39Gregor Robertson: So if he can stay fit, that's enormous. Forget the signings. Odegaard on his A game is so big for Arsenal. But again, what Pete's saying is true. The midfield, their options. Louis Skelly's emergence. The profile of Bruno was kind of perfect because he can do a bit of everything. That's the kind of player Arsenal really needed. Rice still to come back. You've got Mourinho. You've got Zubamendi. there's going to be some unhappy players. Another thing is Calafiore kind of making so many of those underlapping runs that gives Tolis the new sign in the space. And that's an interesting dynamic to see.

7:17Gregor Robertson: Yeah. That's what I was thinking watching this game. Everyone's going to put him in, isn't they? But he's galloping down the left wing. He's done that a lot before, but the player outside him has not been someone... You know, Trossard had great spells last season. Martinelli had the odd flourish. That's been a bit of a problem area. And there's still, obviously, you guys have spoken about this before. There was talk about Vinny Jr. There's been talk about a big statement signing, maybe Rodgers. Zolta's come in as a bit under the radar, and he's had a really positive start. We'll see whether he's going to be the guy to hang their hat on.

7:48That's my only thing on him is, again, in this context. And I read Gary Jacobs' excellent piece on the Times website this morning about this signing, and it's great. But if you're going to go to the next level, as we always talk about, You don't go into a charity shield game and go, oh, well done to the new lad no one had ever heard about. Good, good, that'll do. That'll do. Because that won't do in March in the Champions League quarterfinal or something. Like, you are the best team now. You're the best team in the league. You won the league. Great signs in this game. But you don't go, oh, lovely, well done.

8:22This new lad's quite friendly and good, isn't he? In the friendlies leading up to the community shield, He's been getting a lot of praise from the staff at Arsenal. Yeah. They really do like him. Brilliant. He can follow his trajectory. Cleans up after himself, nice lad. But, you know, come on, me to beat PSG, Alison. No, we have to stop assuming that if someone didn't cost 120 million quid, they don't fit your model. It might be he just happens to be perfect. As Gregor said, his relationship with Kalliafora might be the perfect thing to open up that wing for Arsenal. I have heard brilliant things about him, so I was really looking forward to seeing how he would play, and he did not disappoint.

9:03There we go. Were you going to stick him in your fantasy football team as well? I'm giving up fantasy football because it ruins your life. That's so funny because that's the subject of my newsletter today. I want Times readers to decide whether this is... I'm giving it up. Anyway, make sure you check your inboxes later, because I might be. We're talking kind of heading towards the kind of symbolism, aren't we? And I think for Arsenal, even in just that first minute of the defence, it felt like a kind of battleship style kind of attack they got the ball from kickoff the defense moves up everyone moves up but it was interesting to see City retreat wasn't it and I think bringing them in was this an early sign of the kind of pep aura has gone now I can't work them out I keep saying and I've said with Alison on our 53 Premier League preview shows that we've already done in the last couple of weeks I am still convinced Manchester City will be good But this game then made me think, ah, are all the people who are talking about Pep, Bernardo Silva, and now Rodri leaving, this will not be the Manchester City of old.

10:04What do we think? No, I think Manchester City will still be an effective side this season. I think Greg was right about the fact that Arsenal sports are early. We had that couple of openings where Dokus got turned into space. There was a chance for Haaland, which he skews over the bar. I think it reflected things we already knew, which is the midfield is an issue that they clearly want to and are going to address before the end of the window. And as much as this is a transition away from Pep Guardiola, this is a transition away from Rodri, who we now know is definitely going to Barcelona. Last time City were without Rodri, what was that, 2024?

10:41When he injured his ACL against Arsenal, they finished off the pace and Liverpool won the league. so we know that taking Rodri out of the team is a problem and now you're doing that with a new coach they've signed Elliot Anderson I think the positioning of Elliot Anderson yesterday was different and it didn't necessarily make him look comfortable he was playing to the right in the right pocket he wasn't playing as a deep six like we've seen with England didn't have the same number of touches which of those do you think he's better at or do you think this is a challenge that he's been set or do you think it's too early to say yet?

11:15It's too early to say, I think, in terms of how Mareska wants his build-up. I think Mareska really likes Kovacic, and that's why he did that. And I think this proved that he can't rely on Kovacic. Yes, exactly. Kovacic has the brains. Honestly, his vision is still phenomenal. He doesn't have the athleticism anymore. So you think this is him saying, I want Kovacic, but five years ago. So then those comments he makes after the game, we need more players and things, which I'm sure your average football fan would be going, you what, mate? You what? You need more players with that squad. You've got Erling Haaland up front.

11:47Doku's just got a new contract. Just spent$116 million on Elliot Anderson. You want new players? Don't know you're born. But is that what he's talking about? Yeah, I think so. I think you look at the ones they're looking at. So, is Ayubou Adi, Morocco midfielder, who's an unbelievable talent at Lille. He's much more of a six. He's very young, so it feels like a lot of pressure to put him into that role. Enzo Fernandes isn't that player. He's the kind of player that will want to break forward. What's your understanding of the Enzo Fernandes situation? Obviously, you wrote on the Times website at the weekend about this kind of deadline that Chelsea had set clubs to make a bid.

12:18Where is it at at the moment on this time of recording on Monday? I think from a Chelsea perspective, they just want the circus to end, Renzo Fernandes, because this goes back to the end of last season. They crash out of the Champions League, lose 8-2. Fernandes comes out and tells Spanish media, I don't know if I'm going to be here next season. That's been rumbling on all summer. There was a talk about him saying, oh, I'd love to live in Madrid, and Real Madrid then come out and the Millers and go, we're not interested, mate. Chelsea set a valuation of 120 million, which is very high. So the point of this deadline was, they're saying, right, they communicated to Enzo Fernandes' representatives in May.

12:56It cost 120 million pounds to sell him. If we can get a club that will pay that money, we'll let you go. Here are the payment terms. This is how we want the money broken down. That's regarded as off the table. As far as they're concerned, they see him as he's going to be involved this season now. Now, realistically, transfer window closes September 1st. If a club today puts£120 million or some offer in that ballpark on the table, I don't think Chelsea are just going to ignore it. Right. It's kind of just a way of going, let's hurry this up, let's focus minds, let's get this sorted because he's a key player, he's a big player.

13:30And if he goes, they'll need to replace him. Yeah. So let's see. They could bite their hands off. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what, we'll come back to Chelsea in a second because we're going to talk about them in more detail. but just on City, Gregor, not had your view on them in terms of where they'll be, where they'll be. I'm sat here going, look at all the players they've got. They're surely still going to be good. What about this Pep aura then? What about this idea? That was eroded last season. You think it had already gone? Yeah.

13:56Gregor Robertson: I mean, we spoke about that a lot last season. And yes, they came back fairly strongly at the end and they almost made a title race of it. But I think that was beginning to be chipped away at. And I said for much of last season and a bit of the season before that just a lot of the serial winners who were like mainstays of the team have departed, as you've already said, even more have departed now. Yes, they've got hugely talented footballers, but they're not serial winners like the City group have been for so long. Anderson's a great sign and you talk about where, you know, yeah, he played in that little late kind of inside right place and there was one cross in the first half that Haaland wasn't quite in the same wavelength and you thought that's Kevin De Bruyne-esque in that little inside right pocket.

14:38Gregor Robertson: He can do that. he's not Kevin De Bruyne but he's got great delivery he could play the six he can be any of those positions he's a great player great signing and Buari would be a big signing so I'm sure they will sign somewhere in midfield but there are just question marks like what docu are you going to get he was great last season end of the last season brilliantly is Foden going to be rejuvenated like I think there's question marks about Ruben Diaz at the back Guardiola's kind of been in and out with injuries but then do you not counter that by going Kusinov was much better at the end of last season they signed Mark Gay he's probably the most consistent centre back he was a good right back in this and then you've seen that he wants O 'Reilly to step in midfield and then form a three so there's a bit of a like City have done that in the past but Maresca always he's quite wedded to that at Chelsea and you think that's going to be a way to play but also specifically on Diaz and particularly the way Maresca wants his team to play their build up is very formulaic it's very patterns it's three and a two the central centre back which caused there was loads of talk about that once Levi Colwell got injured last season for Chelsea he wanted a replacement because of his distribution right is Diaz that player for City?

15:40Do you think they've got that player at all? As in, I'm not sure. I'm not sure. You think about some of the bigger players. John Stones could have done that role really, really effectively. The other question mark is Donnarumma, which is, for me, he was always, we've talked about Sanchez at Chelsea. Donnarumma is a similar kind of profile. He's a fantastic shot stopper. He's one of the world's best goalkeepers, but he's not one of the world's best with his feet. He's good with his feet, but he's not exceptional, which is something that Maresca would want. So you think having, obviously watch Chelsea and Maresco a lot to bring him in then actually City's squad is not as catered to how he wants to play as maybe you know naive people who just look at it like me and go there's loads of great players there it's not an automatic it's not like he goes in like everything's in place I think keeper, centre-back central midfield I mean he did with Rodri but Rodri's going he did with Stones but Stones is going there's transition there that does need to be replaced I think interesting from a Maresco how do you think he'll play with Haaland because that was such a big question ever since Erling Haaland joined the Premier League Pep even the great Pep Guardiola was questioned about what do you do with Erling Haaland how will Maresca deal with Erling Haaland how will he approach it tactically I think you build the build around him I think there are players that you adapt to I think if you look at the wingers the wingers are quite well suited he wanted to sort of isolate his wingers and to be effective 1v1 and I think the profiles of Doc Doc is one of the best if not the best 1v1 in the league in a wide position.

17:08Semenyo, similar, that kind of profile, I maybe technically would want more of a technician, but that seems pretty well suited. I think like Guardiola did, you've got one of the best centre-forwards in the world. You feed him. Would he want a player that could probably link play a bit more? Maybe, but Erling Haaland offsets that, I think. I don't see that area of the pitch as much of an issue. and

17:35Gregor Robertson: they don't have that many options out wide either actually City have always under Pet they always had a gamut of players who could rotate out wide and now they've got those two and then Greenwich came on didn't they as well Greenwich came on that said something Savinho's been like doubted about a move away so I think they could do with a wide player it's remarkable isn't it Alison that we're sat here picking up out Manchester City and suddenly like they're bereft they've got no players two weeks to go crisis but it is interesting isn't it when you think about this idea of City and maybe this assumption that we have had for so long about their might and their strength, that maybe at least in the early stages of the season, we might see that, you know, tested.

18:14They're opening five fixtures, Bournemouth at home, Palace away, Coventry home, Manchester derby, Sunderland at home. They're the five Premier League games before the international break. What would you make of some of the points Pete and Gregor are making about City and Maresca and how they might start? Yeah, I mean, I think what you've got is the appointment of Maresca, I think, makes absolute logical sense.

18:37Gregor Robertson: Right. He's a manager on a trajectory who worked under Pep and was very hands-on as an assistant and understands the club. And he very quickly made his mark in football, winning promotion with Leicester. You know, that's quite a quick thing to do from being an assistant. And he left Chelsea almost on his own terms, really, because he had in mind, I'm going to be ready to take over at Manchester City. But watching the game in Cardiff, I did feel the loss of Guardiola more than I was expecting to. I felt the players didn't look as scared to make the mistakes that they made. Guardiola was phenomenally demanding of the players, especially players who played well.

19:24You'd always have a niggle in their ear about how you could have done that better. You could have done that better. I want more from you. Don't think just because you had a good game, I'm pleased with you. And that creates this sort of buzz of never resting on your laurels, always needing to do more. And I didn't see any player on the pitch from a City perspective putting in that little bit extra to try and make sure their manager wasn't going to say something to them afterwards about how, well, you might have thought you did really well with that cross, but what about the time when you didn't?

19:55And Semenya, for example, I thought he had a very, very quiet, very quiet game and I'm a huge fan of his and I know he went he went to City thinking he would learn a lot under Guardiola and he's not getting that now yeah it might even be a setback to his progress which I still think is on you know an upward curve so I I feel we might see City by the end of the season with the players they have and will no doubt get before September 1st will be jostling for the places in Europe. But I think initially when you read out those, that list of fixtures doesn't sound onerous. But if they're going to be in that sort of transition of having played under somebody who's the most demanding coach you will ever meet to someone who no doubt is, but won't compare.

20:46I just don't think he'll compare. That's the problem. Chaps, then, I posed this question about, with Alisson and some of the guys last week. Are Arsenal then, are we looking at it now? I'm not asking people to predict who's going to win the Premier League title. That comes on Thursday. Are Arsenal miles ahead favourites and it's a big group of uncertain chasers because in so many previous seasons, it's been, it'll be Arsenal or Manchester City. And I think that's kind of how I felt going into this weekend we were at, it'll be Arsenal and Manchester City and Alisson and many others were saying, Chelsea could have a dart.

21:19but how are you guys looking at it now? Are you actually thinking it's Arsenal's and City are in with Chelsea and others who could have a dart? Gregor, I'll start with you.

21:30Gregor Robertson: Yeah, look, I think Arsenal are pretty strong favourites. I think, you know, City, Liverpool, Chelsea, all change managers, all in a bit of a state of flux. Transition season, as people like to call it, but they don't really happen for a club. No, not allowed. Okay, any of those three. And behind that, even United and Spurs have just recently changed managers. You can throw Spurs into that, but it's possible now. I think they've made some impressive signings over the summer. And I've said it last season and maybe a bit the year before. I think we're in a bit of an era of the elite not being quite what they were.

22:11Gregor Robertson: Not so elite. An era of sometimes dysfunction, sometimes transition, sometimes regression. for a big like that kind of collective of teams and Arsenal kind of pulled away a little bit from them all over the last couple of seasons and also behind them as like the kind of the stats and the points back up the kind of middle rump are a lot better they've improved a lot so that makes for another season of unpredictability good fun great yeah I think so and Arsenal again are just sitting above everyone else a little bit because of the continuity because of the strength on their team over a number of seasons and they're the champions.

22:48Gregor Robertson: Pete, first on that before we talk about Chelsea. Yeah, no, I agree with Gregor pretty much entirely. I think, I don't want to say they will win the league because I think you can say... Go on! We don't know. Because of the unknown elements, you could get someone come in, take advantage of not having Europe, whatever, and just actually mount a challenge and it's totally different. But certainly Arsenal are best placed. Yeah. And I think that was very clear over the weekend. There is a margin. their starting position if we're doing a flat 100 metres then they're 10 metres ahead of everyone that's the best way of looking at it I think also it's interesting when talking about Vinny Jr you felt like Arteta wanted something to go right we really are like 25 metres ahead we are definitely going to run away with this and that's what having someone with a starry signing might do but to come back to the point if you think about some of the best players in the Premier League recent years Salah, De Bruyne They weren't that before they joined the Premier League, right?

23:48So it doesn't necessarily guarantee if you sign like a junior, that makes a difference. You can find that in other places. Interesting. You just gave me a good idea for a preview graphic for our Premier League coverage this week. Bringing in Chelsea then, you mentioned these teams that don't have Europe. That is the big line that people are saying about Chelsea under Xabi Alonso with hugely exciting attacking talent. Alisson has tipped them as outsiders for a Premier League title charge this season. And I really want to know what Pete makes of Alonso. Because, I mean, is he nice to be in the company of?

24:19No, he is, yes. Is he a nice lad? Never mind whether they're going to win the title or not. Tell me about Javi. Is he a lovely lad? Do you like being in his company? Yeah, it was really... I think the first... So he did it. He had his unveiling in... Fix his name, I've heard. No, he doesn't. Shabby Alonso, he would never do that. I know he wouldn't do that. I think it is unveiling. which I was quite jet-lagged for, so bear with me. I try and remember it. But coming back to it as well, answering Alison's very serious question about Jabula, you know, for listeners, you've been on tour with them, you're at their game at the weekend, so you're perfectly placed to tell us about the new manager and about how they're going to tackle this season.

24:59Yeah, so, I mean, as unveiling, he was a little bit more guarded, and I think when we came into that, and he did a few minutes afterwards with the writers, and we just turned around to each other and went, oh, okay, is this going to be a bit like Arteta and not say too much at all? Perfectly pleasant. I think by the time we got to pre-season in Australia, in Sydney, and we had a sit-down interview with him, far more relaxed, quite clearly had his feet under the table. Yeah, he's a lovely guy, very personal, very serious. But he does have this kind of aura. Does he? Not just because he was as a player, but just the command in which he talks.

25:38You know, he says something to you. He says there's a real depth to what he's saying to you. He wasn't like one of those coaches because we all, obviously Tottenham were down there as well and we did interview Roberto De Zerbi. Roberto De Zerbi is like this very magnetic presence. He looks at you really like reads into your soul kind of thing and you're not quite sure if he's going to flip off the handle or say something really nice. Generally, it was all quite nice. But do you know what I mean? That's a different kind of way of dealing and interacting with people. I mean with De Zerbia quite clearly got why players buy into him the way he works Alonso similar but in a totally different way much more understated just that sort of aloofness not quite aloofness but do you know what I mean that slight separation but on the team and what we've seen I think with the fact that they are not playing in Europe is a massive advantage particularly because it looks like he's trying to change things at Chelsea and he never said at any point, I'm going to play a back three.

26:40We're going to be flexible. That was his line. But what's he changing? We've seen that the team have played with a back four, a classic four, two, three, one. And then as pre-season's gone on, and as we saw on Saturday when they played Real Sociedad, they played with a three with wing-backs. Slightly hybrid in that you had Marco Palestro, who's a new signing from Atalanta, who's incredibly athletic. He's covering the whole ground on the left-hand side. and then also Pedro Neto was used as a wing-back on the other side. But it's not like I'm saying he's playing with a three. It was quite fluid.

27:12He would drop into an out-possession. It's a four. So I think we'll see a sort of hybrid of the two depending on an opponent. But it's a change. It's certainly a change. I mean, Chelsea have been used to inverted full-backs and Malo Gusto playing as an attacking midfielder. This is going to be different. I think, I mean, there's still a bit of flux about the team, but the front three, Gio Pedro, Morgan Rodgers playing off him and Cole Palmer next to him, that looks really nice. I mean, Gio Pedro has had a phenomenal pre-season. He scored nine goals, I think. Benefit of not being picked by Brazil for the World Cup.

27:45But there's a few in the squad like that. Gio Pedro, Esteval William was injured, Cole Palmer didn't go to the World Cup. So that's a really strong core. As a three, they look great. Maxence Lacroix has come in at centre-half. They need another centre-half. That's been a long-standing point of debate. Looks very, very comfortable, particularly at the centre. distribution. So what about this title tilt then? Where do you stand on that? I think they'll need a little bit of time to adjust because it is a big change. I think, I mean pre-season I want to see them in a competitive game but they did concede a lot of chances against Sociedad.

28:20I think Alonso wouldn't have been happy with the lack of control particularly in the first half where like I was talking about Palestra and playing as left wing back, the way that that system is set up means that there's a space there and Real Sostia took advantage of that. So the players just need to get used to the different spaces that they're conceding. And I can see them conceding a few goals. I can see them not having full control of games. Do you think it'll start... At least at the start anyway. ...a little bit and then maybe build rather than that kind of... Because we had it with Marescu, didn't we?

28:52I remember on this podcast, idiots like me at Christmas were going, Chelsea are in the title race. And they had a kind of that run of fixtures and then everyone's like, win these and they're really in it. And they didn't and it all fell away. do you think it'll be a bit messy and a bit fun and a bit chaotic and a couple of three twos to start with? I think so I think the uncertainty around Fernandes I think is important because I'm going to talk about midfield with City you've got Caicedo Alonso will love working with Caicedo it's just who's next to him it looks like he wants to play with a two so we saw Rhys James play there which looks like that might be a more permanent role because I don't know if he will be trusted to play as the wing back just fitness fitness history as well maybe A big player is the right centre-back too so there's ways of getting him in but it's just you've got Romeo Lavia who's a fantastic player when he plays and hasn't played 90 minutes competitively yet and that's a big question mark there's Dario Asugo who they signed last summer but he had issues last season so I haven't seen him so I don't know how good he is and then it's Enzo Fernandes and Enzo Fernandes playing in that deeper role is not Enzo Fernandes' Fernandes' best position you know it was under Maresca that we saw him become more of a box crasher a player that likes to get into the box and score goals has a much more dynamic position than what looks like Alonso wants from his players.

30:05So Fernandes' state is that it'll be interesting to see where he plays. Because will he play more as a backup 10 to Rodgers and Palmer? He's kind of a, for me anyway, it's not the most easy fit. There was booing and cheering for Fernandes. What was louder, the booing or the cheering? Good question. So before the game, so about half an hour before kick-off, it wasn't that full at Stamford Bridge. His name was read out. He was a substitute. and there were a smattering of boos like oh okay this would be interesting yeah then when he came on so about half an hour to go um you could there were a couple of boos as he walked up and then when his name was read out that he was coming on there were very loud boos it was very interesting but that was instantly met by then a response of support of singing his name right um and then this then carried on a little pantomime fashion really when he got possession of the ball he got booed on possession of the ball which i thought was quite strong i guess one thing when you boo the name of a player and then he's now playing for your team so then boo him when he had possession was oh okay but then it was the same thing again the fans basically responding so it I don't know it felt initially 50-50 I think by the end the boos kind of went away like they're not going to keep that up you wonder whether that will become part of it as well not necessarily it will dictate a transfer whether it happens or not but in terms of all sides going let's just get this done shall we because he'll be saying to you I'm not going to but like I said to you before doing with this, for goodness sake.

31:27Like I said before about the Fernando situation, from a Chelsea perspective, they want this done. They want this resolved. And the fact that this happened, it's not done. It's like, how does a player feel about that? How does that affect what Alonso wants to do? It's a sideshow. Yeah. So, yeah. Lots of interesting analysis on Chelsea. Just before we go to a quick break, we have to bring in our don't-get-carried-away Chelsea correspondent, Gregor Robertson. How are you looking at one of your most intriguing teams, let's say in terms of the discussions that we've had on this podcast. Alison thinks they could have a crack at the title.

32:00Pete thinks we should be excited, but, you know, tempered with some issues to solve. Are you going to come in and tell me it's still a train wreck? Still a nightmare?

32:11Gregor Robertson: Look, there's a lot of things they've done this summer that make sense. Some that I find really weird, and I would put Jordan Henderson and Danny Welbeck in that. Do you think that's what... I think that's exactly what they needed. Because, I mean, some of the pieces towards the end of the season not by myself but some of my other just like the dressing room culture was the main thing and Liam Rossini before he blew up was one of the first things he started saying it's like we need professionals we need more maturity I mean that's clearly what the idea is yes the ace were I going to play no probably not as much as you'd think that's what's weird I think you sign players who are just to set the culture and the changing room is slightly odd it was weird Greg is just angry he could have signed him it was weird great pro in the dressing room you don't need him to play that was a bad egg at all like it's weird that Henderson went to the World Cup yeah why is it not weird that he's just signed for Chelsea after like having gone around the horses and getting yeah getting a move to Brentford like it's weird for me and and Welbeck does Welbeck turn to 36 in a couple of months it's weird like and it's also such a big pivot away from it's like they're hearing all these noises about what people think and they're okay well we better do something about that and they're just going like with a sledgehammer boom there you go there's two culture setters but they won't play Welbeck might get a game because actually I'm still not sure he's going to play a front floor I think Welbeck will get games I think he'll get quite a few minutes because it'll be Dio Pedro and then they've signed Emmanuel Omega from Strasbourg he'll be a player that just Liam De Lapp and Nicholas Jackson De Lapp and Jackson weren't in the squad get the sense that De Lapp would like to stay but doesn't seem like he's got a place for Berlon they've only got they're not in Europe not being in Europe is huge I like Lacroix he's a good signing and someone they needed but then again they kind of they let Jalaba go and he's probably been their best centre-half for a good while now and their most reliable the one who stays fit yeah Rodgers again of course it's an incredible signing but how are they making it I don't know I'll maybe explain that in another show yeah so yeah it might take a while they're still they're still perplexing yeah yeah they're still addicted to signings Alonso's the big unknown obviously he was you know the brightest young thing in Europe and then had a very bruising time at Real Madrid so he's got a point to prove but who knows but not being in Europe will they finish better than 10th?

34:40Gregor Robertson: Of course they will they should last year was a car crash Chelsea are weird and perplexing Gregor Robertson is back and the football season is back we are officially cooking and underway absolutely interesting and fascinating stuff in this first half of the show, a bumper first half of the show. We need to go to a quick break, a quick quiz question to take us there. Christos Zolis became the first player to assist two or more goals in a Community Shield game since David Beckham in 1996 for Manchester United against Newcastle. What was the final score in that game? Find out after the break.

35:22Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson and Peter Rutzler with me in the studio. We've been away 20 minutes with that quiz question. Honestly, you know, can tell the pre-season lag. The World Cup lag is still there. People didn't even understand the question. No one got it right. The final score in the 19th round.

35:43Gregor Robertson: I said 1-0 and there were two assists. Gregor thought it was 1-0. I was answering the wrong question. Pete thought he was answering a different question. honestly days have passed 4-0 Manchester United was the final score in that game goals from Eric Cantona Nicky Burt Roy Keane and David Beckham as well as assisting got the final goal in that game sometimes I don't know why I bother I really misunderstood that I really did anyway back to the news back to the big news of the weekend Alison I just wanted to ask you about the fascinating news at Liverpool Fenway Sports Group agreeing a deal to sell a third of the club to a consortium headed by British Indian businesses businessmen, sorry, Amit Bhatia, which values the club at 5.5 billion.

36:25An expanded board with Elaine Savarin, the wife of Facebook co-founder Eduardo Savarin, and Brian Baum, who is representing Amazon founder, Jeff Bezos, rather than Bezos himself. Where are we heading with football now? What are your thoughts about this latest news about your club? Yeah, I've heard Liverpool describe when FSG took them over as a distressed asset. It's hard to think back. Are you distressed by this news? I am distressed. No, but I'm less distressed by the word distressed and the word asset. I mean, this is what football has become. And it's just a fact of life that clubs are owned by people who see them as a means of making money.

37:10And they're usually American-based because they think we undervalue our clubs in this country. And the most obvious example of this is Liverpool, that FSG took over. And we're talking about the club being valued in the millions. And now it's valued at 5.5 billion on the basis of this investment. You just think, oh, my God, they really did know what they were doing when they saw an undervalued or distressed asset and went in and made it better. So now what you've got to think about is what is the motivation of the consortium that have taken the 30 % stake? If any Liverpool fans are thinking, woo-hoo, we're going to have loads of money spent on players, we know that isn't allowed anymore.

37:55So that won't happen. And there's not going to be a big splash of cash on the best players in the world. It's just not permissible. It's the same thing when there was a takeover of Newcastle who became, in theory, the richest club in the world, but they weren't allowed to spend any of the money. So it just feels like treating the club as an investment vehicle and a means of making long-term profit, which in turn means you make your money from merchandising and matchday experiences and hiking up prices, and that doesn't feel very Liverpool at all. So any Liverpool fans who, I think they're probably in two camps, some who think it sounds very exciting, a chance to cement the club as one of the best in the world.

38:47And then there'll be another camp of Liverpool fans who feel like it's just too monetised and threatens that the matchday experiences can only be afforded by wealthy tourists and not the local lifeblood of the club.

39:01Gregor Robertson: About to my mind, an interview I did with Tom Wagner, who led the Birmingham City purchase and takeover. He's head of a hedge fund, basically, a night he had capital worth about 10 billion, I think. And when you speak to him about why he did it, it's totally like cards on the table. It's like the world is increasingly going to be digitized. You know, if people spend time online, the real value now is in real-life experiences and, like, match the, as Alison said, match the experience, hiking all that up, making this the best day out event, human interaction, all that kind of thing. That's a big reason why they're doing it.

39:40Gregor Robertson: And the irony is all these guys made their money in the digital space. Yeah. So that's another part of this. Yes, they undervalued the league and the product, but I think actually the way the world has sort of shifted and changed even since FSG's takeover, that's another reason why they see this as such a valuable asset. It's only going to increase in value. I always find it fascinating, the idea that they're seeing is undervalued and just in the sense of what that does for pressure on maintaining the Premier League's financial dominance and position. Within that, you're looking specifically at television rights and how they keep that bubble growing.

40:18Because it feels like when you look across Europe and you look at how other leagues are struggling, that there would be a plateau point. And it feels like we've been kind of close to that plateau point when you consider what the latest TV deal was. when you have this kind of investment in the bigger clubs that's going to be applying more pressure to keep innovating, changing and it just brings to mind obviously in Singapore they've just done for the first time where they've got a deal where you can watch every single Premier League game from a Premier League productions point of view what kind of impact that will have on how Tel Aviv and Rachel continue to grow and the expectation that they will continue to grow and then if that doesn't happen what is the impact on these assessments of these clubs as well beyond just what Greg was saying about changing how you use the asset and match the experience.

41:03Yeah, fascinating, isn't it? And I think, I know a few Liverpool fans who had a similar reaction to you, Alisson, of a kind of measured scepticism, I think is probably the kind of phrase I would use to describe their reaction. It's fascinating that you could have a kind of takeover of big names and big money and the fans of the club are a bit like, hmm, hmm, that's the kind of area we're in with football now, isn't it? Really, really interesting. So there are more Liverpool fans out there. Do get in touch with me, Tom.Clark. at thetimes.co.uk with your views on this latest news for your club and what it might mean.

41:33To wrap up today's show, two questions that are kind of a bit similar. They might end up with the same answers, but in terms of teams that near the bottom mid-table who might give hope to Coventry, to Hull and to Ipswich in terms of one of the great things we saw last season, Gregor, we were discussing this in terms of some of the content we might have on the Times website. We loved so much about last season for the title race, for some of these surprise teams, but also the fact that Sunderland and Leeds both stayed up and stayed up brilliantly, playing brilliantly, particularly Sunderland. I have a slight worry that this season we will not have that.

42:13I think Coventry will be great. I'm really excited to see how Frank Lampard does. I really hope he does well. It'd be great to see an English manager do well and for him to prove that he can do it in the Premier League again, all that kind of scepticism around him. I think Ipswich look like they're putting together a decent team and I think Hull will be great fun I think everyone will like them I think you could end up ultimately with them all in the bottom three still Do we think there are teams above them? Because that was part of it Wolves obviously being a disaster last season West Ham as well Are there teams above them that give them hope that we might have a team that might be dropping down?

42:49Because there's a lot of flux and change elsewhere It's not just at the top of the table In the mid table too Gregor I'll start with you

42:55Gregor Robertson: Well for the same reason that Chelsea not having European football Is a major boon The teams that do find themselves with European football This season Bournemouth I think Brighton will be okay Sunderland, Palace We've said it for a long long time The challenge on your resources Particularly some of these teams haven't signed that many players And they're going to have a huge challenge On their resources I think that's where you get the biggest hope if you're one of the promoted teams. I'd throw Fulham in there too because a lot of change. Manager leaving, Arbelo is a big sort of unknown as well in terms of like, would he really have got this job if he hadn't had half a season at Real Madrid?

43:38Gregor Robertson: Probably not. I like Shea Charles as a signing, but then he signed a couple of players from Real Madrid that we don't know that much about. I think Garcia looks quite good and probably be quite exciting. but Fulham have got a good squad and they've played some great football and we've enjoyed them and they've been you know a club that's managed to kind of stay away from relegation fears for for a number of years now but just this change means there's a question mark over them as well and Bournemouth like Iola set such a high bar like Marco Rose it's like the most kind of easy transition even like the manager welcoming him into his office and just sitting down and having a chat for like an hour and people saying right okay guys we need to show him somewhere some of the rest of the club now that was a good story they've lost Sinesi Krupe Junior is out for the first few months who's like the guy they're probably going to hang their hat on for goals and again playing in Europe it's a great story and it's going to be great for the club and the fans but it's a big challenge so I think that's where the promoter clubs should look for Bournemouth had a few injuries in pre-season as well which I mean Marco Rosa plays a similar style to Riala it's high intensity so not having the cleanest pre-season is not the best.

44:53I agree with Gregor. I think right and down are sort of going through every single team. Maybe all of these, Sunderland, you think will struggle. I think they will struggle a bit more. They have been quite quiet in the window, but that's partly because they realised their squad is good. It was quite good. They kept Granitja Acre as well, which is probably the biggest business they could have done. Absolutely. But yeah, Fulham and Palace are the two unknown. I think with Palace, I mean, they finished 15th last season. Yes, they won the Conference League. I think only Wolves scored fewer goals in open play than they did.

45:24Pierre Sage is a well-respected coach in France, came through the academies at Lyon, did well on the first team at Lyon, then went to Longs and finished second and won the Cup. So there's pedigree there. There's a lot of sort of excitement about what he could do. But I think it is quite a step to then go into a Palace team that's coming after Glasner, a Glasner who really had buy-in from that squad. I think they lost 3-0 in there the weekend and didn't play particularly well either. So I'm a little bit concerned about them. I went down, so I did Chelsea and then I went to watch Fulham afterwards because I hadn't really seen much of what Fulham might look like under Arbeloa.

46:00And they'll look very different in that they're going to be much more aggressive. And that means that, I mean, Fulham have always had a slightly older squad. So we've seen obviously Shea Charles come in and the two young lads from Real Madrid. They've just got to get younger, mainly because they've got to play like that. You're going to need some younger faces. Complete unknown in terms of what Arbeloa will bring. for them and that can swing either way. But I think their core is okay. They just need to make sure they score goals. They've lost Jimenez and Wilson and I'm relying on Garcia playing Premier League first time.

46:32Difficult. Munez hasn't kept his fitness. That's going to be key. So both of them, it's goals. And obviously Palace of Mateta and Di Silasar and Jeremy Pino, they're players who can score goals. But if the team's going to drop into that, it might be them. but even then the baseline is still much more than the three that come up

46:54Gregor Robertson: well the other team is Newcastle yes I mean in terms of you know the award for the most sort of chaotic and dispiriting summer is Newcastle losing the manager losing their three best players in Bruno Denali and Gordon you know hiring a manager from Saudi Pro League signing I think all the players are 24 or younger So clearly there's a vision. There's an idea there, isn't there? It's a big, big change of direction. And the mood's big, right? If you start slowly at Newcastle with a coach who doesn't have that much of a background that people know about in the Isler and then you start slowly and St James' part becomes a bit like, where are we going here?

47:37This is all changed. This is not what we were initially sold. I think all clubs are like that these days, aren't they? They are, true. Alison, thoughts on teams the guys put out there? No, well, they're all very logical. arguments. Palace, I think the key thing is they showed, as a team, they showed great resilience with the whole, I mean, the Glasner thing was a bit of a debacle, you know, announcing he was going to leave. That should have meant that they started to spiral out of control and they didn't. They went on and won the Conference League. I would hope from Palace's point of view that some of that is inherent robustness that doesn't just rely on Glasner's leadership and that PSA can come in and build on that.

48:16They've got something there. They're going to be in trouble if that something was all in relation to Glasner and not in terms of something that they have as a group. I hope so. Fulham are in need of signings. I mean, they definitely need signings. They don't make any. They're going to be in trouble, I think. That was my next question is with two weeks to go, we've talked about some of the big clubs and the movements that might still happen. I think there's quite a bit of work still to be done down in the Premier League and a team that we've not mentioned yet in terms of trouble and I don't necessarily think they might be in relegation trouble but Everton, I think, need a good start.

48:52You know, we discussed it, Alison, on a recent show about change and no change and how no change can be great if you're Mikel Arteta but no change can be seen as kind of stagnation if you're a team further down the league and David Moyes is a manager. Everyone's known for a long time. Everyone likes, everyone respects. But when you're seeing all these exciting new names around, I think there's a potential for Everton fans to go. All they had last season. We want something different. They had the new stadium, which I think boosted them along the way. And they had Jack Grealish for a few weeks. And they had Jack Grealish, which boosted them along the way in terms of just an injection of fun and joy.

49:30And those things are not, the stadium isn't new anymore and Jack Grealish probably won't be going back there. So they do need something to give the, because the Everton fans I know are not happy. And I'm really excited. I'm really hopeful that Hayden Hackney can do well, for example. But it's the same, you know, Tyler Dibbling. I was excited about that as well and barely played. I mean, it just needs, it feels like they need something. They need a player. They need a signing. They need another Jack Grealish signing to just lift everyone and lift the fan base before the start of the season. Because I think there's a case for Everton fans and maybe, you know, get in touch and tell me if I'm right or wrong, to be the least excited about the start of the Premier League season.

50:09Because their manager's the same. They've spent, I think,£60 million, which, yes, is a lot of money, but is not a lot of money in modern terms. They've not got European football. What are we buzzed for? Other than the actual football being back. You know, there's something to latch on to. Oh, he's exciting. Oh, it's a lot of pressure on Hayden Hackney to deliver, isn't it?

50:28Gregor Robertson: Yeah, look, I totally understand why Everton fans, when you see everything else going on around them and all the investment and all the shiny new thing, why they're a little bit like where's ours? And then they've got David Moyes coming back. But I think we can underestimate them. I think they finished 13th last season and I think if you looked at their points total it would have been, again, for the same reason I was pointing out, in any other season it would have been in the top half further up the table. And yes, Jack Grealish was big. They've still got Elliman and Dye. They need a striker.

50:59Gregor Robertson: They need someone to score the goals. I actually don't mind their signs. like Norgard's a good pickup Brennan Johnson in a team that played transition football could be a good signing didn't work for him at Palace for whatever reason I think actually Palace would be hasty cutting him loose maybe something happened there Tyreek George started to make an impact towards the end I think he's a good player and Hackney we lauded he's the best player in the championship I like seeing the best players in the championship being given a platform in the Premier League and I think if he's given a platform he'll be good so I think Everton will be fine I don't think I think they'll be fine as well but I think fine in the modern context about fine is not enough and so you know they could be 13th or 14th after in November and they might if everything's left as it is end up in 7th and get Conference League or something but it's not enough in the modern world and so that's why I think like a signing just for the PR just for the lift Pete who do you think to that second question then who are there a club or clubs just to kind of wrap us up that you're like, they really need something.

52:05Or players or players. And it can be top or bottom or middle. Newcastle, definitely, still. Yeah, I mean... Spurs need a striker. Spurs absolutely need a forward, yeah. Spurs don't just need a forward. I really want them to get a forward. Because you look at... No, but you just think it's there. You know, Gregor, you alluded to it in the first half of the show. And Pete, you spoke about meeting Deserby. they made some really good un-Tottenham-like signings. You're mentioning some of the other clubs signing 22-year-olds with potential. They just went, nah, Sandro Tonali, that guy, let's get him.

52:41Imagine if they did that the same with a forward. And I know it's easier said than done. There aren't loads of them out there. But rather than sign Liam De Lappe on loan on the final day of the deadline, go and sign a striker and you're like, because then you maybe start having a similar conversation about Tottenham that you do with Chelsea. not about the title but about a Champions League tilt under De Zerbe with no European football Thor's

53:04Gregor Robertson: yeah like I mean he said it he wanted a bomb of signing and he expects to get one still not happened and it's not happened no and there's been talk about Gakko and there's been talk about one or two others yeah I agree like they were all of their signings they've strengthened the defence you know Andy Robertson Van Hecke still got Van de Ven Pedro Porro one of the best Sinesi Full-backs, yeah. Sanessi as well, of course, yeah. They've definitely strengthened there. And Fernandes and Tonali are great signings. Another sign of that calibre up front would be big. I think they could do it too. They could do it with a wide forward and a centre forward.

53:42Gregor Robertson: I'd actually say Leeds could do with someone to back up or to challenge Dominic Calvert-Lewin because they're reliance on him. And look, it was great to see him stay fit almost for an entire season and score goals. his career record doesn't suggest he'll do it again or there's a good chance he won. Maybe they'll get Liam DeLapp on loan. Someone's getting Liam DeLapp on loan on the final day of the deadline, aren't they? That's nailed on. Surely, someone. I think the Bathurst Leeds were really interesting last season. Their evolution, the way they changed shape and then they looked like a really solid Premier League team.

54:17Gregor Robertson: And it was also not really a Daniel Fark team. Big, experienced... Two huge statement signings as well, like getting Harry Wilson and paying a lot of money and wages to get him is a huge statement. And they've essentially signed everyone thinks England's future number one once Jordan Pickford isn't the number one anymore. So, as you say, if they can back that up. Yeah, it's kind of strangely sort of tranquil at Elland Road. It's not like that's not this natural state of things. These underperform point-wise their stats. So I think they will do one of the biggest leaps in terms of progress this season yeah really good team to watch but another striker but Lucas Nemecha and he's he's a decent player but I think again to take that next step a striker would be an important one for them a big couple of weeks in the transfer window you can keep up to date with the latest news on the Times website we will leave it there for now Peter Rutzler Gregor Robinson and Alison Rudd thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening we'll be back with an EFL show very soon and with the regular show on Thursday we'll see you then Thank you.