Premier League Returns and Cult Heroes Part 2!

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. England are off to the World Cup securing qualification with six wins from six games, no goals conceded and with two games to spare. On today's show, we'll be asking which players are certain of a place in Thomas Tuchel's team or squad and wrap up the rest of the international action too. We'll also look at the return of the Premier League, hear about the former players becoming referees and return to our debate around cult heroes. We've had loads of great suggestions since Monday's show. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the football reporter Pete Rutzler, the former Ireland striker turned columnist Tony Cascarino and the former Scotland under-21 defender turned football writer Gregor Robertson is here too.

0:45Pete, I did think about checking in with your former football career, whether you represented England under-12s or anything like that. No, nothing close. Nothing close. This is humbling. Killed him in the first. Two titans. I've been killed pre-podcast, during podcast. No, no, I was just reading that thinking, I should have checked with Pete. You never know. It's like when you forget to mention that Alison played the game and that she refereed it. And she's like, Tom, actually, I refereed the game. And you're like, bollocks. I should have worked that in. What, were you, Tom? No, absolutely none whatsoever.

1:17You was only a centre-half if you ever played, Tom. And keeper, actually, a lot of the time. A keeper? Yeah, I could say that. Just mouthy, mouthy, without any skill whatsoever. Yeah, coaches always said, you talk a good game, Tom. And that was it. That was the only ever analysis I ever got. Anyway, let's get straight into some proper football action. a 5-0 away win against Latvia on Tuesday night, confirming England's place at the 2026 World Cup next summer. Another impressive display, plenty of goals, plenty of attacking threat. It's all looking pretty good. I wanted to start with Thomas Tuchel.

1:50It's been a short time. It's been an interesting time. I thought his post-match press conference on TV after the game was really good fun. We talked about it on Monday's show, Gregor, very briefly, his kind of comments about Wembley, and then the away fans, quite rightly, giving him a bit of stick, which he took very well, I thought. You know, are we singing loud enough? Can you sing a song for us? All that kind of stuff. He had a good old laugh about it afterwards. It's all kind of coming together for him a little bit after a tricky start. Yeah, I mean the last two camps have been very, very positive.

2:22You're right in pointing that out. He's still very punchy and he's, you know, the whole kind of, whether it's entirely justified or not, but the whole kind of conversation about leaving out, potentially leaving out big stars is something that's going to keep rumbling away I think but on the pitch very positive and like a clear kind of a clear game plan getting the ball wide creating overloads they've got players who can deliver really dangerous balls into the box and you saw that in the first half even though it took them a while to kind of make the breakthrough just repeatedly getting the ball out to Gordon and to Saka mainly Gordon though and he cut inside and just ball after ball and even when he cut inside and scored the goal it was the same sort of pattern so it's not rocket science either it's like put a guy who plays left winger out in the left wing does that make you to say and you did say this last summer I think England's Euros would have been absolutely well it would be very different it could have been very different if they'd played a left winger we'll talk about the team and some of the places that are locked down but just coming back you briefly touched on it there and hinted at it Gregor an article on the Times website from Johnny Northcroft Thomas Tuchel plans Jude Bellingham talks and warns over, quote, non-negotiables.

3:35The stand first to the piece says the head coach is open to bringing the midfielder back into the fold in November, insisting he and other returning stars must buy into the team ethos or, quote, we will not invite them. He's sticking with it, Thomas Tuchel, isn't he, Tony, in terms of these big names? I don't think there's anything to suggest he's actually saying Jude Bellingham's not going to be in contention for England, but it is interesting how he's laying this down very clearly for the last couple of camps that, you know, So all players have to buy into this ethos that he keeps talking about.

4:03Yeah, unfortunately, I had a manager like that in Public of Ireland. Big Jack again. I seem to mention him so much. Non-negotiables were everywhere, Jack. Liam Brady couldn't get in the team because he didn't see Liam as a player that fitted into the style he wanted. He picked Mick McCarthy, Kevin Moran over David Leary. O 'Leary was playing at Arsenal and Kevin was at Blackburn and Mick McCarthy was at Millwall. non-negotiables. He did it all the time. He sat me on the bus one day after a game and said, if you do that again in my team, you won't play for me again. And it was literally sitting on the bus.

4:42And I looked at him and he smiled. I wasn't the only one he said it to. He said it to John Sheridan, who was a chef from Wednesday. John was a midfielder, neat and tidy. Good footballer, John. He said, if you play a one-two with a centre forward, I'll pull you off. and I said to John and John's in the tunnel with me we're playing Spain away and he said that's my game I said John just put it in the channels if I don't get there if no one there he'll ever go at me so I said just do it even if it's a blind pass just play it into the channel because he wants to turn the team and that was his idea there was many non-negotiables with Jack Chowen were there many to do with culture though like to do with personalities yeah because that's the thing isn't it with the Bellingham not just Bellingham, we should say, with the whole group, that it's not necessarily tactics as it was with Jack Charles.

5:33Having Dan Verne and Jordan Henderson, it's because they're characters that add to the group. They can lead the group. Yeah, that's a fair point. I took more from Tuchel when listening to him that I think he wants duels in positions. He wants players fighting for that shirt. And Bellingham, I think, is the number one. He's going to be the number one for Tuchel, I believe. For which shirt? The number 10 shirt? Number 10 shirt. I think he'll get it. Look, he's up against Foden, Cole Palmer. Morgan Rodgers. Morgan Rodgers. It's a great luxury to have. But I think the manager is just going down the road of, we want more from you, Jude.

6:13We want more. And also maybe making him think, you know, this is not a guarantee. No, exactly. You are absolutely in this team for certain. Tom, a year and a half ago, Jude Bellingham was getting 100 caps in a heartbeat and he's going to be the midfielder for the next 10 years. And he's saying, well, maybe not. Maybe not. Just keeping him on his toes a bit. Well, Gregor, what do you reckon to that idea? It is Jude Bellingham's shirt, but he's just maybe making him think, I'm going to have to work for him. There's no doubt that he's been sending messages about, but I think it's more about his sort of, attitude's the wrong word, but it's like his influence on the environment.

6:51Yeah. Like the positivity That he's clearly trying to inculcate In the England squad And it seems to have been a success in the last two camps As it happens When players, some of the big stars weren't there So he's now sending the message That if and when You guys return You cannot have any sort of adverse impact On that Sort of environment because He's trying to build a team, he's trying to build A team ethos, like a club environment And that was all the stuff that we saw at the start Earlier in When they went to the Grand Prix And they had a week together And they were all like Johnny was writing about the nice team dinners And all that kind of stuff We didn't see any immediate effect of that Now we are starting to see A team A team on the pitch And part of that's to do with the tactics and the individuals involved But Tuchel obviously thinks that Perhaps one or two of the players Who aren't there were slightly having an adverse effect it's a funny one because if you think about when he met the FA you know what was on his how did he persuade them to give him the job apart from his CV and it would have been I think in my mind I could easily imagine the conversation of him saying I think you've got a squad that can win a World Cup and it's far ahead of my country Germany that I you know I've managed in also maybe saying I will deal with this issue that Gareth Southgate had towards the end of his time I have the authority to do that.

8:20There's no doubt that England have got a squad of players that aren't too many teams, whether you look around not only Europe but the world, a lot of international countries envy England's ability, what they've got, because they are... The depth of England's squad is so huge. It's like, wow. There's hardly a position in the team. You go, there's not an outstanding player. There's got outstanding players in every position for me. And it's interesting that obviously the last couple of weeks you've had the context of Steven Gerrard coming out and being like, oh, you know, you're all egotistical losers.

8:54And I spoke to Sol Campbell last week and he basically said, well, yeah, it's kind of a fact. We all knew that, you know, the northern rivalries were really big. And the managers, part of that was coaches didn't clamp down on that. And obviously the big success with Southgate was culture. And it feels like with international management, that's it. I mean, on the field, there's only so much you can learn from the qualifiers when you're playing teams like Latvia. Not that they were always this easy. It seems like this is a very modern thing because of how strong they can do now. But it's all about the team and building the right culture and having the right people in there.

9:27And maybe that's it with Tuchel. It's saying, I can actually make these calls. Does anyone think here that he also thinks Kane, he's got this amazing goal scorer, those numbers are incredible, that actually in finals, it's not quite worked out as well for Kane. And he knows Kane, because he's absolutely, you know, he's to the mask, isn't he, on Kane. He's a brilliant footballer and talks about the mentality of Kane. I feel he's like, if Kane has a decent tournament, there's no reason on earth England can't go and win it. Yeah, I mean, Kane as well, speaking after these games, I think about saying this is the best football I'm playing in my career so far.

10:08You know, quite rightly highlighting some of the opposition, but still scoring a hat full of goals. And you're right, Tony, that was another thing with the end of Gareth Southgate's reign, wasn't it? that it looked confused and people getting in the same areas he was dropping into areas where there was also another issue with Bellingham too and I think Johnny wrote about it in all the games I think he's got one assist for Kane so they haven't necessarily linked up brilliantly so that's another aspect of that dynamic but also we should say it's been a bit it's getting a bit overload now on Bellingham I mean yeah definitely it's not just Bellingham his crunch talk's planned it's not he's going to talk Foden's now in decent form yeah yeah So ordinarily you would assume he would get the call up and he hasn't.

10:48Cole Palmer's obviously injured. I actually think Foden's another interesting example. I said it on a show a few weeks ago. You look at him playing and you wonder whether the kind of no England thing and the idea that nothing's guaranteed is kind of firing him up to be like, I'm the best player in this team. You know, whether he's got this idea that he's got a few superstars that he needs to make him feel like, no, I'm the best player in this team. I think he's the one under the biggest threat actually. Foden. Yeah. I mean, I think if Cole Palmer kind of returns to form... Is he going to take Rodgers out?

11:15That's the key. Like, he's been very consistent in his show. Clearly, he's part of this group that he's building. Just, we can come back to this in a minute, because I feel like we're talking about a position that is, like, up for grabs. But it's interesting that I think Tuchel's reign has kind of solidified a few other positions that were up for grabs under Southgate. Gregor, you've mentioned Anthony Gordon seems to have that left side lockdown. But Kai Osaka, I think, would be everyone's choice on the right, and Elliot Anderson in midfield. Are we looking at that, literally already out from the World Cup for once Gregor delight for you we're not having big debates it's just the number 10 shirt and the two full backs would you say up for grabs yes I mean you could say centre half but Conso's stock has risen again and you'd think it would be Gahey and Stones if they're both fit but Conso would be a very good standard who would be your full backs just as a quick off top of your head presumably it's James because of how much Tuchel likes him seems to I don't know if he can stay fit and consistently fit then you'd assume Who would your left back be?

12:15Fitness That's a tricky one I think Well I said when we were chatting with Greg Raffaire I want to see him play in England although he has before is Tyric Mitchell I think he's a really interesting one of how much he's improved A lot of players will say that why he's not in contention He's improved enormously like to the as me and Greg were chatting Raffaire about this we were saying you know he was known for being a great defender winning the ball stopping wingers One on one very good Going forward in certain areas of the pitch, his delivery wasn't as good as it needed to be. I think if you look at his form from playing 45-plus games last year with Palace, seeing off Ben Chewell, because Ben Chewell was brought into Palace, that left-wing-back position saw him off completely.

13:00Remember, he was an England player, played a good number of caps. I think he deserves a chance because he's the most natural. I see him ahead of Luke Shaw. I think he's a better player now than Luke Shaw. I mean you know Luke Shaw's had terrible injuries but I think he's got to be giving him a chance Gregor left back to Union yeah I mean I think it will come down to form and fitness between Livermanto and Spence for a place in the squad it's possible they both go Lewis Hall as well Livermanto can play both sides well so can Spence Spence do both like when we picked our England start 11 mine wasn't far off this apart from Spence is on the left and James is on the right you should be the England manager no no I'm just I didn't have Rodgers either to be fair I did but I think Spence is such a good defender and it's important when you get into like we're talking can I ask you a question that one Spence he's talking about who's like who's the competition and England have one of the best when they get to the very you know the very end of the tournament and they're playing teams like France and Germany and whatever Spence he saw him against PSG in the Super Cup he can he's like he's brilliant he's so quick brilliant defender So I like Spence But I think it will come down to form Over the rest of the season Because Lewis Skelly If he gets into the Arsenal team And he plays well And he kind of grows even more That season's his first season really Can I ask you a question He's still got a good chance to Greg on Spence Do you think he switches off?

14:29I mean you're not seeing any sign of that now Not really Obviously there was big question marks About him earlier on in his career But we see him now And most weeks he's outstanding I mean, don't get me wrong. I'm not saying he doesn't deserve his chance of being the left back, or like we've said, he's versatile to play both. I've seen parts of his game, I think every now and again, he switches off. And like you said, he's an amazing recoverer. If he needs to get back, he's a bit like Kyle Walker. If he needs to get back in urgency, he'll get there. Yeah. And does it really, really well. Yeah.

15:02No, I was going to say Lewis Skelly, I think would probably, if he can get into the team, that's the thing. He hasn't been playing regularly for Arsenal now. how many other countries have got this much really? France France, after that would you say Spain, would you go Spain? I'm not even sure the depth is definitely there because I was then going to bring it back to the conversation that sparked this about all the positions that are up for grabs and there aren't many that number 10 shirt and you talking about Phil Foden under threat, said two players for every position, that seems to be what Thomas Tuchel is liking with Eberichi Eze as his one extra player who by the way we've not even mentioned in terms of possibility roles he can't take Rodgers Bellingham Foden Palmer and Fantino turns it to 30 players in the squad Gianni we need you to sort us out here but I mean if he leaves it at 26 he can't be taking all those players can he?

15:57No that's why I say Foden is one under I mean I think you've hit the nail on the head Gregor you said earlier which is true we're in October yeah okay February, March and people are in their hour for we need something to talk about next international break Tony it's only coming around in four weeks time like yeah I mean Foden you're going to Foden's to start the season well last season was a difficult one for him and Cole Palmer is such a like he's always been he's always been impactful for England Foden has not been impactful for England either you have to bring that in there's not been all his fault like there's been this this like desire to throw all the best players on the pitch for too long I'm not sure where he plays so is he going to be as good an impact player as Cole Palmer I'm not so sure again I know we're flip-flopping around here you come back to right back we've not even spoken about Trent you're leaving one of the best footballers I've ever seen possibly but is he has he got a position is he really going to be a right back England might go to the World Cup leaving Trent Alexander-Arnold and Phil Foden at home it's absolutely bonkers we really should be winning it shouldn't we They should have a transfer thing in football, shouldn't they?

17:07Other countries should be able to take it. Few of them would love to have Trent or Foden. Yeah, yeah, I'm sure Ireland would be one of them. We'll leave the England debate there. We've got another international break to come, but if you've got thoughts on who should be in or out of Thomas Tuchel's squad for the next World Cup, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. I mentioned Ireland there, Tony, about joking about borrowing some of England's players. They might need them after that display against Armenia. Not the best, but getting a win thanks to Evan Ferguson's goal, but only after Armenia went down to 10 men.

17:35Yeah, painful. Really poor 60 minutes. Couldn't string two passes together in especially forward areas. It's Azaz. Azaz. Finn Azaz. Yeah, Finn Azaz. Him and Ferguson never really gelled. Passing was completely... I mean, Armenia were dangerous out there, lost the game, and then back in Ireland, in Dublin, we didn't look like a team that was playing at home. Now we have Portugal home and Hungary away, and it's a very slim chance. I just can't see it. I just don't think we've got enough. Seamus Coleman come in and done a decent job at 37. We're not bad defensively. Keller is a decent keeper. Midfield, I think we're struggling for players.

18:21Josh Cullen's a decent footballer, probably the best. He's small bone in there. Malumbi, West Brom. I just don't think there's any quality in midfield of being able to match the leading nations in world football. Yeah, very tough. A lot of unhappy Irish fans, even though we got our victory. Yeah, absolutely. A tough look for qualification for Ireland for the next couple of games. Congratulations, though, to Cape Verde, becoming the second smallest nation to reach the World Cup after the Islanders beat Eswatini 3-0 at home. There's a brilliant piece on the Times website earlier this week by Ian Hawkey on the achievement of the Ireland nation with a population of just 520 ,000 people.

18:58really really brilliant read go and search for ian hawkey's name and you can find about it all on the times website there's another piece that you'll be able to read on the times website this weekend from another brilliant journalist gregor robertson has been back with the referees course the former players becoming referees i'm just going to give you a chance to tease tease the piece a little bit it's not on the times website yet but some really interesting insights this was the second time that you visited yeah this setup uh tell us a bit more about what you found out Well they're developing They're getting pretty good actually A few of them you look at and you think They really look the part now So just remind listeners on what the concept is So this is a PFA initiative right PGMOL and PFA in conjunction Have for the first time created The sort of environment and circumstances That will actually allow us to see Whether footballers can make good referees It's always been spoken about for decades You know footballers and managers And what not say Why is a footballer not being a referee It's always been so hard Because it takes 10 years or something To make it from When you've got to start at the bottom And climb a rung in the ladder Each year And after we try it 47, 48 is it now Have you sat in 10 years?

20:11Yeah having a 50 Is it 50? That's an interesting point Because some of these guys are like In the early 40s Yeah Or late 30s So But It's They're being paid now 40 ,000 pounds a year for a three year course to kind of fast track them alongside there's now an elite development referee course that also does that fast tracks so there's 10 players and they started 9 months ago and some of them have refereed 40 or 50 games like be it amateur local leagues or like academy games some WSL games actually not like friendlies and stuff Carl Baker one of them he used to play for Coventry and Portsmouth and MK Dons he looks really looks the part he did a game between Macclesfield and Man United's under 21s in front of a few thousand at Moss Rose it's not a huge standard but they're getting there and just I sat in on some of the seminars that they do and they're fascinating they put on one called Foul Recognition and this is exactly the sort of circumstance and scenario where people see the subjective decisions that people see footballers with their feel for the game, their experience, they should know this and there's no consensus in the room whatsoever.

21:26So like it just kind of trashes that whole idea. And it was really interesting. And actually... Because you showed me a couple of the clips and some of the challenges were genuinely like, Gregor came over and went, come on then, smartass, let's have a go on this. And like, I was saying different things to you, different things to the people in the room, different things to what the referee on the pitch actually did. You know, these are like quick 50-50 decisions. and yeah I mean the guy who leads the course Dan Meason was really good he got me involved in all the debate and the decisions go on Gregor what do you think and I've got some things I was like and then I'd say it's okay to say there's no right answer and he's like both things can be true yeah because sometimes I swear sometimes there were incidents where you think I'm not sure that's a foul and then someone else is talking about a red card the spectrum is that broad you're like I think he won the ball I can't tell definitively but the follow through was pretty forceful like oh where did he make the contact hang on point of contact is not in the laws of the game that's irrelevant like it's a mind wrecker and he reminds you when you're on the pitch you will have one angle one view one chance and we're sitting there we've got a big TV screen rewinding We play slowed down and we still can't come to the right decision or if there is a right decision and there's no consensus in the room.

22:54So it's fascinating and the guys are starting to understand that refereeing is highly complex and really nuanced and they've kind of got to go with their instincts but sometimes they've got to accept too that their instincts might be wrong. It's a really interesting topic. I mean, even I think that the idea of ex-pros becoming referees has been around for a while. The balance they've got to have is making sure that there's still the other pathway that there is that sense that if you're a grassroots referee you can get to the top and it's not going to be sort of because retention is such a problem, maybe more so at the moment with the rising abuse levels There's also like, this might be one for another piece down the line but it's also actually interesting to speak to guys at the PJMO who point out to you that quite a lot of the often the slightly younger referees who are being fast-tracked through the elite development programme now actually did play football they might have played in a youth team and had like a YTS they might have you know they might have played in non-league but at a high level non-league so like they do know the game it's like there's not I'm not saying that referees who haven't done that don't know the game it's just that they actually have had a decent background in football as players as well but I think what's the other interesting bit that comes across reading your piece that will be on the Times website very soon listeners is the bit at the end when I forget which referee it was but talking about being in the match and then being excited to get home to watch the footage to see whether they'd made the right decision and I got home and I saw there was no contact on the ball get in I've got it right you know it's an impossible job isn't it I mean coin flipping on anything and you know there was a game was it was it Monday Wales versus Belgium and the two penalties with handball I don't know if you saw there was another seminar on handball and that wasn't much easier I know I was going to say the handball was just wow and you always have to remember for me what should determine there is way too many laws and regulations in footballs anyway but for me it's like if you're going to give a penalty from 12 yards and a one-on-one for quite an innocent sort of 50-50 I think it's just wrong that's wrong in itself so it's impossible this underlines it this underlines it everyone has entrenched staunch views on everything on certain rules and like the thing you know you're talking about these guys what they've been able to do is have in nine months in is to take a step back and realise that you know as players they were the same they were playing for a team they were like that's wrong that's right that's wrong that's right as fans they did the same that's wrong because it's my team that's right because it's not and like now the referee they realise and they're sort of you know they're neutral entirely neutral they're realising there is no wrong and right sometimes it sounds like an absolutely fascinating article which you can read on the Times website on the refereeing which is incredibly complex and difficult facts that we will all forget on Monday's show once the Premier League is back and there's been some big cock-ups in the VAR truck.

25:51Anyway, we're going to talk about loads of the Premier League returning teams in part two. So it's time for a little break. First, last week I did tell you about a new podcast from The Times called The Business and this week there's more brilliant new content from our colleagues. This time it's from The Times Investigates feed and their latest in-depth series is called The Poppy Day Bomb. A fascinating piece of work trying to uncover what really happened when an IRA bomb killed 11 people in Enniskillen on Remembrance Sunday in November 1987. The trailer is out now. If you search for Poppy Day Bomb, you can listen and subscribe on Apple, Spotify or wherever you get your podcasts.

26:25This is one you do not want to miss. Now, as I said in part two, loads of big games this weekend to discuss, including Forrest v Chelsea. And that fixture is the subject of the quiz question from Bill Edgar's quiz, which is on the Times website now. Who was relegated from the Premier League with Nottingham Forrest when he He was their main goalkeeper in 1999, eight years after Forrest had scored seven past him when he was in goal for Chelsea. Find out after the break.

27:04Welcome back to The Game football podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Pete Rutzler, Tony Cascarino and the quiz master, Gregor Robertson here. He never gives you a chance, does he, Tony? Straight in with the answer. Yeah. Doesn't even give you time to think. Gregor Robertson, I asked about the goalkeeper who was relegated with Nottingham Forest after Forest in 1999 after he'd been goalkeeper for Chelsea. Dave Besant. Dave Besant. Loads more tough quiz questions from Bill Edgar on the Times website. Bill does his quiz every week. You can check it out. Guys, just want to say, I got my first 10 out of 10 on one of Bill's quizzes last week.

27:38I only guessed at least five of them. So you had random choices in there. Yeah, there's multiple choices in there. You know, you can have the choices, but I like to think of, you know, this is the top tier of footballing knowledge on the game podcast. Now, before we get into the return of the Premier League, we have to return, Gregor, to the subject of Monday's show, the cult heroes. Never known such a conversation on this show sparked so much debate. We had loads and loads of listeners get in touch. So I'm just going to run through a few of them. Kevin on X got in touch to say, Greg, I might back me up on this, but Lugo Moravchik was a Celtic cult hero.

28:12Signed by Joe Venglos as a 32-year-old for£350 ,000, was written off as an unknown geriatric by the media, but was in fact a Zola-like genius who had been criminally overlooked by big clubs for his entire career. One of his first medals at Celtic was genuinely two-footed, scored amazing free kicks, once trapped the ball with his arse, brackets, I was there, so I'll believe you, Kevin. I think I was there. And was man of the match against Juventus in the Champions League. Greg, a lot of head nodding from you. I nearly mentioned him last week so that's an excellent shout because he's right he was completely dismissed like who's this guy?

28:45That I think is important for cult hero status a few other suggestions our very own Paul Hurst wanting to mention Sheffield Wednesday hero David Hurst no relation in case you're wondering loads of people getting in touch on Instagram saying people like Hugo Roddy Yeager Morton Gams Pedersen I'd say they're very excellent they're Barclays men general Barclays cult heroes aren't they? you can be like a Premier League cult hero but like cult hero should be like club specific no so I think there's two different categories this is why the debate's so fascinating a few more examples that are club specific Danny who's a Villa fan on X says two Villa examples performance of their lives in a derby goes to Alan Hutton against Birmingham and then he said for shock housery I'm going to say it on here shithousery I can say it Jed Steer which I'd actually forgotten about this staring out Mason Holgate on the walk to the championship playoff final semi-final penalty shootout in 2018 18, 19.

29:36Do you remember this? There's a great clip of it. Mason Holgate is walking with the ball up to take a penalty and the Villa keeper, Jed Steer, is walking next to him just staring at him the whole time. Absolutely fantastic. Chris, who's also a Villa fan, also says Alan Hutton, the Scottish Cafu, particularly for his goal against the Blues. Dave, who's a Chelsea fan, says Jesper Gronkja, the man who scored the £1 billion goal, which I think is very good. Miles emailed in as a West Ham fan to say, I couldn't not get in touch to mention Paolo Di Canio. I think he's probably a West Ham legend and then every man, potentially league he also wanted to shout out Dimitri Payet and Carlton Cole I'd say Carlton Cole is more in my wheel arch of cult hero that's more my kind of thing Joe on Twitter great Gregor this is a great shout Leo Fortune West a cult hero for basically every club he played for was he at Reading as well he was at everywhere he played for Lincoln for about nine games and my dad still talks about him Matt Reed thank you Tony Mike emailed in to say nobody matches Stan Bowles brilliant wind-up merchant hated by opposition fans great hair and great character uh paul who's a sunderland fan says john k this is a great one i'd never heard of john k but now i want to find out everything about him paul says he's a right back who kick his own grandmother without compunction he could play by the way and that's important to note but he reveled in the reputation as a tough nut broke his leg badly at roker park and left the pitch sat up on a stretcher pretending to row it like a boat as the whole stadium sang his name he was also known as the tractor as after one match against Leeds, Leeds manager Howard Wilkinson said that one of their lads had been tackled by Kay, had a leg that looked like it had been run over by a tractor.

31:12He'd probably last 20 minutes in today's game. So, Pete, Tony, any thoughts on some of those? Loads of fallbacks, haven't they? Yeah. Loads of fallbacks. I think that's like, well, you can't be like an amazing player. So you disagree with our... So on Monday, myself, Gregor and Alison were saying that you can be a great player and a cult hero, but you don't think you can? Not really. Maybe in a Premier League wide sense, like a cotcher. I could name a couple I don't know what ball fans so I mean like so you would discuss so I said Zola is like a Premier League everyman Alisson said Dinsdorf Bervitov you know Gregor said they're too good because they're sort of respected as you know being great footballers there's got to be like something quirky or they work really hard but Stan Bowles was a cult hero on one of the ones you said and Stan Bowles was a brilliant player you know and a cult hero obviously off the field he was a bit of a legend as well that's part of it right yeah Frank Worthington Frank Worthington at Leicester he was an absolute legend cult hero and he was a fabulous footballer yeah there's something quirky like with Fulham it was like John Pantsell probably is a cult hero because he used to do a lap of honour and clap the fans after every game regardless of what he did yeah I think that's the kind of thing and you've got to be like solid and you know enthusiastic Tony some players that you played with that would qualify as cult heroes that you played with Terry Herlock most definitely at Millwall or Terry Warlock yeah as he was known I was telling Gregor Ferry We used to have a pub where Greg lives now in Walthamstow.

32:37Trendy Walthamstow. Trendy Walthamstow, yeah. Upper Walthamstow. And Terry had this fireman's pole in the middle of the pub. And, of course, we'd go, yeah, sometimes. Just sometimes.

32:52We'd go and have a few pints. And one of the party tricks is you grease the pole and then you had to try and climb up it. you know proper proper sort of you know mid to late 80s style of bonding bonding team bonding no trips to the Grand Prix I said to Tony Terry Hurlick is the standout figure from my first ever game of football it was the 1990 Skull Cup final between Celtic and Rangers and there was this guy for the other team Rangers with a massive bouffant permy haircut running around smashing everyone and I remember thinking I'm sick who's that oh he's unrecognised yeah he's a cult hero it's a bit like you know if you go Billy Whitehurst was for the wrong reasons known as a cult hero at Hull City because he was known as probably the toughest man in football yeah you know but the Hull fans would say oh Billy Whitehurst is the biggest cult hero that they've ever had you know biggest club legend so I've played with a few yeah tell me that line between legend and cult hero sometimes is a bit blurred I was like Des Walker falls into legend initially when you got on a team like This is a forest Yeah he was 5 foot 11 11 stone Went through As a centre half He was different And then he started Singing the song You'll never beat this Walker Who sang a song About centre halves So that was a bit Of a cultish thing Having a song about you Is a big part But then he played 50 times for England And he became a legend Big moments as well You know Like Gronkiel Example Yeah yeah Like Divock Origi I definitely would say Yeah yeah That's a good shout Origi at Liverpool Yeah Ramirez I think Chelsea Because you're not really, you can be a cult hero, but not necessarily be a particularly great player for the club.

34:31You just did a moment, a massive moment. That's why you're, despite the fact you weren't the best player. Well, Pete, it's interesting, isn't it? Because we've actually got two former footballers in the room with us. And I thought after Monday's show, how stupid of me. I need to do some proper journalism here, some proper digging and get in touch with some fans of clubs. Don't miss better than being bad. What? Come on. I'd like to know, Tom. It's what the listeners want to know. So we'll start with Gregor, because that's the less good one, let's be honest. And this is from Jim, who's a Nottingham Forest fan, who says, most of my memories of Gregor are from the 2004-05 season and therefore clouded by the end game of that season, which was relegation to League One.

35:17Although I must stress, I don't hold him personally responsible. Is this Jim Hawker? I'm not naming surnames. I don't want anyone tracking anyone down. Gregor always struck me as a cultured left back there you go although maybe somewhat lightweight I do remember him getting a straight red card in a home defeat by Sunderland just after Christmas that season and then looking for Lorne like the rest of the players as we slumped to late season defeats at Highfield Road and Loftus Road that sealed our relegation probably not quite a cult hero for Forrest I'm afraid and then Tom who's a Grimsby fan we've got the start and end of your career I'm still researching on the middle there's still hope Tom who's a Grimsby fan said I like Gregor a lot but I'd say no, not quite a cult hero for us.

35:55We were promoted that season but other players like Omar Bogle would pip him. Gregor was very solid but not quite a cult hero. So there's no insults here. No, no, no, I'll take that. Got very solid, very reliable but not a cult hero which brings us, ladies and gentlemen, to Tony Cascarino, arguably the definitive cult hero in terms of football. I've spoke to a few fans of your clubs and did leave Celtic out. Yeah, thank you, Tom. Although we were discussing before we started recording that actually you scored against Rangers. Yeah. And then what was it you were saying? against Hart you scored I came on against Hart scored gave away a penalty and got sent off in seven minutes and got a standing ovation from the jungle at Celtic Park there you go I think that's caught here that scoring against Rangers helped yeah absolutely well I spoke to some Villa fans as well who actually it was a Villa fan who got in touch about some players after your time who then went back and spoke to their family who got this insights that said there is a lot of love for Tony actually amongst Irish Villa fans and he's best known amongst the people I know for scoring one of the best worst goals after an awful goal mouth scramble against Derby County Derby County 1990 1990 1991 in a 3-2 win against Favilla and I've looked it up it is a stinker there's like an absolutely massive melee on one part of the pitch Cascarino at the other back post waits for it to bobble along to him bang runs off celebrating as if he scored an absolute worldie but for one of your clubs and of course for Ireland as well.

37:24This was from a Millwall fan, Dave Newland, who's 60 and has been a Millwall fan his whole life. He said, absolutely, Tony was a cult hero. Ted and Tony, TNT, he cost us a set of track suits from Gillingham and went on to play for Ireland in a World Cup. He and the fans always got on well. He was a brilliant header of the ball and always got stuck in. Proper Millwall. And then I thought I'd check with a proper journalist as well, just to make sure I wasn't just getting fan bias here. Paul Rowan, who's our Irish football correspondent, says when it comes to Ireland, I don't think Kaz ever had his own song but he had a fair few nicknames and was a cult hero for Ireland alright he was known around Dublin as the Italian Stallion not very original but accurate based on some of his nocturnal activities don't know whether we can leave that in but I'm going for it anyway also he was a good antidote to Niall Quinn who was called Mother Teresa by Roy Keane of course and on the pitch very much epitomised Jack Charlton's up and at him approach 88 caps, 19 international goals one of the highest for the country, puts him in the mainstream, but it is impossible not to consider the lovable big lump as a cult hero, especially when it became known that he was once a hairdresser before his career at Gillingham and Millwall.

38:32So there you go. That's got to hear us there. Tony Cascarino, the ultimate footballing cult hero. Oh, dear. Happy with that, Tony? No, you've got to be happy with that. Come on. I'm a bit upset a few Gillingham fans haven't been in town. Oh, bloody hell. Honestly, you started. No, no, look. His careers, I had 19 years of playing football and there were some great ups and some terrible downs. But, yeah, I always gave me all, if we're good or bad. That was the thing that saved me. I also think name is a little bit of a thing. Like Tony Cascarino, that sounds like a cult hero. Not your name, but Gregor Robertson sounds like a really solid footballer.

39:06Really solid, which is all the fans have said. Sounds like a sub's name. Sorry, Gregor. Was it a couple of clubs, Tony? Me as well. The other thing I'd say, chaps as well, is that, Tony, I'd say you continue your cult status as well. You're a bit of a fashion icon. Look at those glasses. Look at those glasses. Tom, it's evolving. Yeah. It's evolving, change. You've got to keep with it. Can I try those glasses on? I just want to see whether I look like Deirdre Barlow. You might not be out of sea out of them. What do we reckon? You look like a Thunderbird. If you want to have a look at Tony Cascarino's amazing glasses, blimey, you are blind, crikey, that is how.

39:46and go and have a look at Tony Cascarino's glasses and how I look so stupid in them, a bit like Deary Barlow. Check us out. We are on YouTube as well. Look for the game podcast. Well, that was a lot of fun, wasn't it? Should we talk about some actual football? And I should say as well, if there are Gillingham fans out there who want to get in touch, or if there are any crew, Chesterfield, Northampton fans, who is the other one I've forgotten in there? I think that's it. Yeah. Do get in touch with me. Find out. Did Gregor Robertson ever do anything in his career that deserved cult hero status? I actually quite like the idea of us going through the whole career and just being like, no.

40:18Chesterfield. Solid. Yeah, Chesterfield. John Sheridan. John Sheridan. Very solid. Very solid. Very dependable. I bet he lumped it, didn't he? Even though he was a footballer at Sheridan, yeah. Anyway, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at time.co.uk. Chat, the Premier League is back. Listeners, you get to enjoy it for about three weeks before there's another international break and we'll be having more nonsense debates about cult heroes. but there's loads and loads of brilliant fixtures to talk about this weekend. Forest against Chelsea is the lunchtime game on Saturday. Pete, you're going to be there.

40:50A fantastic match to kick us off this weekend. Really interesting for Chelsea, of course, but all the pressure is on Ange Postacoglu. What do we make of this game, guys? Yeah. Deep, deep intake of breath there. That's probably what Ange Postacoglu's been doing all week. What time is it? It's half 11 on Thursday. He's survived the international break so far, so that's positive he's got another 48 hours until kick off interesting reports yeah I mean Sean Dyche has popped up hasn't even been linked with the job which actually stylistically I know Gregor's shaking his head would have made more sense to move from Nuno to Sean Dyche personally it would have been bonkers but stylistically at least it tracks is it that bonkers?

41:33if you were getting rid of Nuno and then bringing it at least there's a step change in terms of you know Ange has, for all his faults, he did win the Europa League last season. That's the thing. And, you know, before this terrible run, there were lots of people who argued between whether he was good or not. But this is such a huge game. Because also, they've got this game against Chelsea. Then they've got Porto at home in the Europa League. Then they've got Bournemouth away. Those three games, incredibly difficult games. I mean, then they've got Manchester United at home, Sturm Graz in the Europa League, and Leeds at home.

42:05he won't be in charge if he's not got a good few results how many games do you think he's got it could be this weekend if it goes really badly I wouldn't be that surprised with Maranakis so as I say the thing I wasn't shaking my head at Sean Dyche I was shaking my head at the fact that there's always so many reports so many so many lines so many like steers towards what the thinking is from the club from the club like it's insane and it undermines the manager who's been in charge for a month. What chances has he got? The tricky one in itself because Chelsea, I watched their last game against Liverpool and they ended the game with five centre-halves injured.

42:46And I wonder how many of them are back fit for this game at Forest because it felt like a couple of injuries that were going to be long-term. It should be okay because Fofana had concussion so he's to be back. They said Badia Shili and Ajampong were preventative. but you never know what that means I mean yeah they could have they could be quite short in that area but I mean Rhys James as well Rhys James yeah so there's a number of question marks even though Chelsea have got such a huge amount of players it's a hard game for them because Chelsea if they're on and they're like they were against Liverpool Chelsea are a really good side they can move it around and you know if Ange goes after them I'm not sure Chelsea I'm pretty sure Chelsea will punish him it's big that it's a home game as well though isn't it Greg Anger's going to need the city ground behind him as they were with Nuno and things but as they have not been not been so far yeah and he needs a good start too exactly because as we heard he was kind of pilloried by his own fans in Europe it's a big one and like as I say I wouldn't be surprised if it doesn't go well that he's gone but even if he gets the rest of the another week there's some difficult fixtures in there Chelsea don't travel well they've only won three of the last 14 away really that's interesting big things that they need to improve on this season they've conceded a lot of late goals haven't they like I did at Brentford where they look quite comfortable they've done that quite often away from home Chelsea yeah and they've of their goals scored away four have been corners out of eight so they're they're not quite there yet away from home interesting we'll see what comes from that game you can read Pete Russell's report on the Times website on Saturday Tony you're going to go and watch Palace against Bournemouth yes The hipster derby this season for a man with those glasses, the perfect place for you.

44:35I just was really intrigued with the fact that these two teams are sitting in the top six. And okay, that might not be the case after the weekend, but how well both managers are doing, there'll be a slight contrast in styles. So for me, that was a standout game this weekend. I wanted to ask both of you on that subject, Tony and Pete. We were talking with Martin Samuel and Gregor and Johnny last week, I think it was, about who could be the forest of this season Last season we loved Forest breaking into that top six, top four debate for a long time. Obviously Palace and Bournemouth are up there.

45:08Everton I think are in eighth as well. Do you see any of those teams? Do you see Bournemouth peak? Can they keep it going? Yeah, Bournemouth probably more so than Palace. I mean Palace have really surprised me how well they've done. Just because of the European football and the balance and the depth of their squad. Losing Eze as well. Yeah, and you assume that might catch up with them. But they've been fantastic. Obviously they've just had their unbeaten run, their 19 game unbeaten run. I think they're unbeaten in about nine at home, which is the third longest in their history. Oliver Glasner's doing an amazing job.

45:35I just think of the two, you'd assume Bournemouth could maybe go a bit further distance. But obviously injuries were big last year for Bournemouth. They do pick them up as a style-related thing. Semenya's a big one for them because he's just behind, I say just behind, he's three goals behind Ireland, but got six already. And loads of people already knew about him. I think he was one of the big surprises that didn't go. of all the you know it was clearly a case at Bournemouth of we can't let another one go and he's been the one that stayed but fair play to him because the ground running straight away from his first game at Anfield we scored a brace and thereafter he's looked on real life Manchester United couldn't pay the money as well they wanted him but they couldn't pay the money and Bournemouth saw that and gave him a really good big contract but he will go soon Thiago Pinto who does the football operations he was at the Portugal Football Summit last week week and we asked him about Semenya and basically it was quite interesting because we said well you kept him that's great five year contract says oh yeah we're delighted to have an amazing season we're really pleased to have him for one more year which was an interesting little giveaway interesting little slip yeah I'm sure he would be destined for the very top I just wanted to also briefly mention two two more games there's loads of brilliant matches but Sunderland Wolves I'm really interested in this one this one I think will decide whether we can really really get behind the idea that actually these three promoted sides maybe we're already there but these three promoted sides are not going to be walkovers like they were if Sunderland can get a win that's brilliant for them and disastrous for Wolves I mean Sunderland is could start if they win this one Gregor starting to look like you know the Europa League is on up it carried away there Tom just a little bit um yeah look I mean they're they're they're on 11 points already like it's it's a good haul when you think about what it would have taken to stay up in the last two or three seasons and Wolves although they've drawn the last two still only got two points and that actually for me that would be the more kind of interesting takeaway from the game if Sunderland win because like Sunderland have had a brilliant start and the promoted trio do look like what they're much improved and going to be competitive this year and we've said to ourselves there's no one going to be cut loose but Wolves need to turn it around soon yeah very much so what interesting they gave Pereira the new contract I think that was really interesting maybe it was just a calm uncertainty or whatever but considering how poorly they've started I mean maybe there's an acknowledgement they lost Kunia and Aiknuri a sizable percentage of their goals came from either of them so maybe it's not so much of a surprise to drop and Semedo left and they have improved they were against Spurs and Brighton they were probably unlucky not to win we're going to see a good sign of what Arsenal's ticker's like I think on Saturday afternoon as well away at Fulham is the classic Mikel Arteta drop points match isn't it in terms of now they're at the top everyone talking about this is it this is the time this is when they're going to win the league Marco Silva comes along and does a job on them we'll see whether that comes across as well two matches on Sunday Greg you're at Spurs against Villa this should be a thriller yeah I mean Villa obviously kind of turned their season around John McGinn had a big hand in that there we go ding I need a John McGinn we're still playing on the right wing well yeah but they had a really positive positive week after winning in Europe as well and then they beat Fulham and beat Burnley so like a bit of a turnaround but it'll be tough for them going to Spurs like far more gritty and resilient than they've ever been and in third so yeah should be a really interesting game and then the big one Liverpool against Manchester United the question on this one I want to know which category is it going to end up in these big games so often you know 4.30 Sunday everyone sits down to watch it they're often either nil-nil and really really really dull or a thriller like it was last season I think it was 2-2 wasn't it with a brilliant performance actually one of the rare great performances under Ruben Amarin for Manchester United where do we think we're going goals goals are you expecting goals Tim definite definite goals I can't see another outcome because Liverpool off the back of their three defeats in some ways it's the worst time for Man United to go to Anfield where they've lost their last three games but United trying to get back to back wins hasn't happened under Amarin I just can't say they're not being goals Tom it's just too much good piece by Hamza this week on the trend about the sort of XG differential which underlines the difference between the quality of the chances you create and the quality of the chances you concede and since April that's been greatly improved under rumour this is underlying numbers to suggest that they are actually performing much better I think they've got the worst kind of drop off from their ex-G to goal scored this season so they need players like Mbwemo and Cesc and Cunha to step up and put the ball in the net Liverpool are going to concede I've had this conversation with you Neil make sure you clip this up for Monday when it's Neil Liverpool are going to give away goals they're not right at the back and I still think the two full backs is for me I'm not convinced that you know Kerkis is I think Andy Robertson is better I think it's a better option I see him play for Scotland Don't get him started on Scotland again We had that on Monday Hamza's piece was really really good Just to sort of reiterate that United actually Seem to be doing a bit better But there was something in there and I asked him about this When I read it about Shot ending sequences which was really fascinating Because basically saying that they're taking too many shots From bad areas Outside the box and places You shouldn't shoot and then you think about who they've signed And they've signed in Burmo and Kunia Both of whom are like shot enders I was saying to him like the last pass will go to them and they will take the shot you've got quite a few of them in the team and then as he points out in the piece having Mason Mount suddenly changes things and how much of an impact he's had no wonder Ruben Amarum has been so effusive about him because he's facilitating others like bringing them into play but actually so while I was like oh this is positive United and then I looked at that and I thought actually this may not get that much better because they're quite similar I suppose even Fernandes is similar in that way yeah yeah there's definitely been some positives what about the change of the centre-half so regularly United you know like it is it's weird it's a weird thing to see after 60 minutes Maguire coming on or coming off or you're alright you're alright coming on or off it just feels like it does seem to be that Matthias De Ligt is like a bona fide certain starter he looks like a potential future captain as well whenever Bruno Fernandes isn't playing but I agree with you it's a weird one particularly when your team is built so much around this back three and you're losing games as well he's been doing it quite easier for three years yeah once we found out in the international breaks so Jim Rackley a final one just a little prediction Florian Wurz will he start for Liverpool yes or no no big silence from no three no's three figures spent on Florian Wurz I watched the Northern Ireland game when he played Germany midweek I didn't think he played well again do we think it's a I mean this is damaging for a he's taking too many touches Tom you know he's a good footballer you can see that he's got all the tools to be a really clever footballer he's done brilliant things with Bayer Leverkusen, but he's taking so many touches now that it feels like he wants to take an extra one.

52:50And he doesn't... I remember having this conversation with a centre-forward once about my finishing. He talked... I had a centre-forward who was very good at scoring goals. And he said, you're doing it the wrong way. You're doing it upside down. You're taking the touch when you should be in it first time and you're in it first time when you should be taking the touch. And yeah, I thought it was a bit patronising at the time. But he actually talked about some of the scenarios. And now Florian Wurtz is taking the touch when he should be, you know, laying it off. And he's doing, again, the other way around.

53:22His game's a bit upside down. I hesitate just because he will come good, I think, eventually. It's just he's so different to the midfield that they had last year. I think we saw Slott for the Chelsea game just revert back to the free when it worked last year. Maybe he's thinking, right, let's do that and then just bed him in slowly. that's probably the best way to do it and I agree with you on that respect and you know he might be on the bench and come on and make an impact and he did against Chelsea is there a world in which Florian Verts and Alexander Isaac start on the bench no I think he was the one there's one thing I saw at Stamford Bridge in his last game was that he was up to speed he didn't play particularly well and he didn't get great service but I thought he looked way sharper and if they can get the best out of him because he is one hell of a talent yeah really really interesting there's loads of great previews you can read from Paul Joyce and Paul Hurst on the Liverpool Man United game on the Times website this weekend.

54:17We'll leave it there. If you've got more suggestions, we can keep the Cult Hero chat going for a third show. Gregor, I reckon, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. You've got research to do, haven't you? Yeah, I need to find someone that thinks Gregor's a cult hero just to make sure that his ego isn't too bruised. I've just realised, Tony, I've just realised another reason you're a cult hero. You mentioned in a song, the Los Campesinos song, where the lyric, you'd ask me who I'd be from history, fact, fiction, dead or alive. I said I'd be Tony Cascarino circa 1995. I mean, if that doesn't make...

54:45They were a Welsh band as well, weren't they? Yeah, a Welsh band. You're even making it into pop songs from Welsh bands. Honestly, the ultimate cult hero. We'll leave it there. Tony Cascarino, the ultimate cult hero. Move over, Tom Jones. Yeah, thank you. Very much. Pete Rutzler and Gregor Robertson too. Thank you very much for listening. We'll be back next week. We'll see you. I said I'd be Tony Cascarino circa 1995.