Pressure builds on Arsenal and Liverpool

0:00Every idea starts with a problem. Warby Parker's was simple. Glasses are too expensive. So they set out to change that. By designing glasses in-house and selling directly to customers. They're able to offer prescription. eyewear that's expertly crafted and unexpectedly affordable. Warby Parker glasses are made from premium materials like impact-resistant polycarbonate and custom acetate, and they start at just$95, including prescription lenses. Get glasses made from the good stuff. Stop by a Warby Parker store near you. Have you ever been stuck on a weight loss plateau, trying everything and anything you can to lose that extra weight and reach peak health?

0:37We've all been there, but Noom's unlocked the secret to reaching the mountaintop. Go in micro. The Noom GLP-1 microdose program starts at$99 and is delivered to your door in seven days. Start your microdose GLP-1 journey today at Noom.com. That's N-O-O-M dot com. Noom. Microchanges. Big results. Noom GLP-1-Rx program involves healthy diet, exercise, and support. Individual results may vary. Meds and personalization based on clinical need. Not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy or quality. No affiliation with Novo Nordisk Inc, the only US source of FDA-approved semaglutide. Not available in all 50 US states.

1:20Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. Are Arsenal wobbling? Are Liverpool crumbling? And are Manchester City hitting their stride? A fascinating weekend of FA Cup action ended with Arsenal's pursuit of four trophies narrowed down to just two. Plus Liverpool were thrashed 4-0 by Manchester City at the Etihad Southampton's prize for knocking out Arsenal is an FA Cup semi-final against City And after an epic, epic tie against West Ham United Leeds United will play Chelsea in their first FA Cup semi-final for nearly 40 years We'll be discussing all the action What it all means for the Premier League title race and relegation battle And looking ahead to the return of Champions League football this week I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd Guys, great to have you Yeah, good to be here Heck of a weekend of FA Cup football I mean, the FA Cup is well and truly alive What do you think was the biggest result of the weekend for you, Alison?

2:18For me, as you've added for me For me Well, I was covering the boat race on Saturday So that was the biggest result No, no Who won? In the room, in the different teams for different races. In the room, someone said to me, oh, hello, haven't seen me for a while. And they said, are you a slot in or a slot out sort of person? I gave them a sensible, rational reason why Chubby Alonso should come in ASAP. And then that person punctuated the rest of the day with Liverpool 1-0 down, Liverpool 2-0 down, Liverpool 3-0 down, Liverpool 4-0 down. So I felt very clever, actually, because they underlined the point that this is not going to be Slott's job next season.

3:02So that was the most significant result of the weekend. I mean, look, I watched Southampton and loved every minute of it, as in not just being against Arsenal, but watching a team progress and in a short period of time who haven't lost since mid-Jan and then take on Arsenal. and yeah, Arsenal had a number of players that you'd like to think, and this is a big point, Greg, on this, is when a manager like Arteta and you've been successful and you're at the top of the table and it's been going really well and then you go with, well, I'm going to look at the Champions League as my best 11, okay, as the best 11 I can select for when they play sporting.

3:40So he's given other people opportunities and boy, did they let him down. You know, and you can point the finger at the manager, But if you look at Ben White, Myles Lewis-Skelly, and you go, obviously, Gabriel Ayesus, Havertz, you know, a number of them. They didn't do anything to go, they're in the manager's fault for that particular game. Not any of them. But I've always thought, Tony, if you know that you're not, if you get an inkling that you're being played against Southampton, who are a championship club. Yeah. And that might mean you're not in the manager's thinking for the big Champions League game.

4:18You feel a bit miffed and inhibited and not yourself because you feel you've been demoted in some way. Players don't like being on beauty parades. No, okay. I understand that. But there's also an element, Alison, of, you know, I'll do as well as I can, as best as I can, to be in the manager's fault. Even if I'm not selected, I might come on in that particular game or in that tie, if someone gets injured for the second leg, them players, none of them can think, even if Arsenal lose a couple of players in the first game, when they have the return, if them players were gone and the manager's thinking, I need to select some of the players that played at Southampton, he might think, I'm not going to select Gabriel, I'm not going to select Havertz, I might rejig my team slightly because they didn't show anything in that particular game.

5:04You both kind of started off with the Liverpool game there, but you very quickly moved on to Arsenal. Yeah, I know, I think that tells a story. It does because How long ago now does Max Dowman's Winning late goal against Everton To make it 2-0 How long ago does that feel? Feels like March 14th That's what it feels like Well a lot has happened since then The momentum was really with Arsenal You thought this could be the moment You look back on and think This is when Arsenal took the real stride One hand on the trophy Now it's all changed again Isn't it Don? Yeah, because obviously getting beat in the manner he did at Southampton and the performance wasn't particularly good from as I just touched on.

5:48And by the way, Downman was probably one of their better players on the day. He looked a real threat and looks in some ways the most dangerous player at the moment. But yeah, it's a real kick in the teeth. And when I was listening to the radio over the weekend as well, and you're listening to fans who are obviously irate and angry and even turning on Arteta and what he's done. And I'm thinking, well, look at my club, Liverpool, and that's the same sort of scenario. And actually, Arsenal are way better placed in the Premier League than Arsenal. They're still at the top, as far as I can remember.

6:19So there's still lots to play for, but there's a real negative vibe in that short space of time. And that Everton game, which you just talked about, I was at and I came out of the stadium and the euphoria, because Everton were really good for 18 minutes. And I'm fortunate in some ways to actually lose the game. But Arsenal got over the line. and that enthusiasm that they all had, the fans, it felt like it was a real pivotal moment in the Premier League. And now the League Cup final, the FA Cup, and it's a real downbeat feeling. You need the fans at this stage of the season. At any level, you need your fans to absolutely not whinge and moan and be critical as soon as someone loses a ball.

7:00You know, they've all got to play their part. And I don't feel that's the way. I mean, if they have a bad result against Sporting, and on the edge of going out in the Champions League. You know, you talked about crumble. That was Liverpool, sorry. Sorry. What were Arsenal? What did you say? They're wobbling. They're wobbling. So the wobble and the crumble. But let's assume they're both the same thing, yeah? Arsenal should take inspiration from Liverpool last season who didn't do well in anything else and had a poor end of season. But it's separate. It is separate. I mean, there was so much talk ahead of the Carabao Cup final.

7:40I mean, it's complete nonsense talk. Whoever won the Carabao Cup final would win the league. That was the narrative in so many places and by so many pundits and fans. Oh, it would tell us a lot about the title race. Because whoever gets the upper hand will come out of that feeling they've got what it takes to win the league. It sounds nice, but it doesn't actually mean anything. No, Arsenal in the league have been a very different beast to Arsenal and sometimes positively better in the Champions League, I would say. I have enjoyed watching Arsenal more in the Champions League than I have in the league.

8:13They were outclassed in the Carabao Cup final and they were outpassioned. Is that a word? Outfought. I mean, you know, it was a weak team that didn't rise to the occasion, whereas the hosts, Southampton, did rise to the occasion. They were superb, absolutely superb. And I think that's because it's the FA Cup and the previous game was a final and you approach those games differently. The question for Arsenal is, in their remaining seven games in the league, will they come up against teams who treat those games like cup finals and treat Arsenal with not too much respect and enjoy playing against them?

8:55because both City and Southampton clearly enjoyed playing Arsenal. They were not afraid of them. And when Arsenal play a team that aren't deferential in some way or they're playing in a match where they're not controlling the narrative of that match, they sometimes do wobble. But what's the incentive? That's the interesting bit, I think, is what's the incentive of their seven excluding City, who obviously we know what that game will be about, but the rest of the matches they're all below halfway in the table I think the rest of apart from City what's them do they treat it do those teams treat it like a cup final if they do then Arsenal's grasp on the title is in trouble but I don't think they will necessarily City are obviously nine points behind Arsenal in the Premier League but have a game in hand and as we say face them April 19th Arsenal have got you know they've got a tricky looking game against Bournemouth next week which is either side of the two games against Sporting and Champions League I mean Alison's saying that the cup final you know there was this whole kind of narrative about whether the cup final would have an effect on the Premier League title race, maybe in isolation, no but the fact they've gone out of two trophies in the space of two games in the international break is surely going to be a blow on their kind of confidence and this seems to be like a recurring theme with Arsenal they don't seem to be demonstrating the temperament of champions.

10:23Is that fair to say, Cass? Yeah, and I think you could probably, how important is performance even when you lose games? And both of them games, the performances were poor. And that will obviously be on the mind of Arteta, the manager, and trying to find a solution. It's not just losing. It's sometimes how you lose that compounds it. And I felt, well, it's a non-event, the League Cup final. It was a total non-event. You know, I know obviously Kepa makes a bad mistake for it to go 1-0 up, but generally that Arsenal offered nothing in that game. And then you play Southampton and yeah, and I still think Arsenal will win the league because of their advantage.

11:01If it got close and really close, we've seen in recent seasons that Arsenal have wobbled and fallen apart. I remember watching them at Newcastle a few couple of seasons ago and they fell apart in that game. They had injuries and Arteta ended up playing some of the injured players in that game. I mean, Ben White was struggling at that time. Gabriel was struggling with an injury. And they played and you could clearly see that it was a patched up team. Now, they've got quite a huge injury list at the moment as well, which we've sort of ignored. I mean, we talk about changes at Southampton that happened, but the list of injuries is still there.

11:37Saka's not, you know, Madiwaki. Saka, Declan Race, Crossard, Julian Timber, Eze, Hincapie, we're all not involved. Yes it is an injury It's slightly different And as you said Max Darwin stepped in And he was probably the one break Sparker for Arsenal Yeah and he was in the game against Everton Because there was something very unique about him And he seems to have that air And we always say this The naivety of a young player Who gets thrown in Who doesn't quite get caught up I can remember being that Obviously I was nowhere near as good as him But I can remember being a 19 year old and not being really that bothered about anything except for getting a chance to shine.

12:18And that's how I feel with him. So he's become vital to Arsenal now, in my opinion, because Arteta can probably look and go, well, he's not getting really bothered by it. Or he's still playing his game. He's still doing the things I want him to do. So in fact, even though they lost, the shining light for Arsenal was him again. Let's turn to focus on Southampton briefly. As you said, Alisson, they were outstanding. And it's been a remarkable season for them when you consider last season they were relegated with 12 points which is the second worst points total in the Premier League era new manager Will Still was sacked in November the team were 21st they promote the under-21s manager Tonda Eckert from the under-21s former analyst 33 year old German nobody had really heard of and my goodness they're on the cusp of the playoffs and they're into an FA Cup semi-final and not only that it's 50 years on from the year they won the FA Cup as a second tier club?

13:14They couldn't do it again could they? I would suspect most neutrals would want them to. There's something rather sweet about, they've worn that kit the cup winning kit the yellow kit all the way through the competition there's two ways of looking at that isn't there one is that you're not going to win anything on sentimentality and nostalgia but it probably does remind the fans of their past greatnesses and I don't know it's it could have fallen flat couldn't it could look a bit in self-indulgent but there was something about watching them in that kit against Arsenal and feeling like they were almost equals you know because they were showing their history it made you forget that they had been until recently struggling in the championship and you felt oh Southampton are a great team they've got some history we like that we like Southampton and then they play like it's very rare for the script to be kept to in a cup tie.

14:16I absolutely love their fearlessness about the way they played. It was, I don't think I saw their heads drop once. And they mixed it up as well. It wasn't like they had one trick up their sleeve. Sometimes they would play down the wing, sometimes they'd bypass midfield, sometimes they'd just rely on 50-50 balls. Let's see what happens. They mixed it up. They weren't, they were helped, I think, by the fact that Arsenal, I think every single corner kick was a short one. And that was really weird because Arsenal's, sorry, because Southampton's record from corner kicks has been poor this season. So why wouldn't you try and frighten them a bit with some, you know, really dangerous in-swingers or something?

15:01Osaka and Racer were just... I know, but there must be other players capable of delivering the ball into an area where the keeper has to grapple for it so that they were let off the hook there, I feel. Because I've no doubt if Arsenal had been at full strength, they'd have made a much better job of it. But I absolutely loved, more than anything, I loved the attitude of Southampton. I've never mentioned Bobby Stokes more so much this weekend than I've been the last 40 years. You know, the guy that got the winner in 76. and it was I loved the performance because it was played with purpose and I talked about this in a piece today that you know the possession style of football where it doesn't have the end product often enough and yet Southampton found it often in the game where they would they weren't afraid to lose the ball of offensive passing they would try and play it first time if they could and the manager spoke the day before the game didn't he about He felt that they could, you know, create problems for Arsenal.

16:04And the problems he obviously discovered that proved, I think, his point, was that they caused Arsenal a lot of problems at times. You know, it wasn't Gabriel, OK, mistimes his header, but it was because the pass was so quick and he's totally mistimed it. Ben Wyatt has got caught out in the far post area that allows for the first goal. And there were things that Southampton did, and I looked straight away at their last loss. And they lost a whole mid-January. They lost against Hull at home. And this team had been struggling all season. And then suddenly they win win after win after win. And, of course, that creates a mentality that winning games, it does help.

16:46It certainly does. It gives us a confidence of belief in the team. But it was a great performance in many ways of how to dismantle, okay, not Arsenal's first team, but a lot of expensive players and a lot of good players in Arsenal's team. And also, I think, I mean, I hate having a go at keepers, but it does set the tone that Kepa isn't intimidating as a keeper. You sort of feel like, oh, we can just get the ball in the box, something will happen. He's not, I honestly feel Rea might have, I know one was a deflection, but I just feel Rea would have made them feel a bit more intimidated. He just doesn't have an aura, bless him, he doesn't.

17:25well crucial game for Arsenal in the Champions League against Sporting Lisbon in midweek and huge congratulations to Southampton who also have huge games they've got Wrexham and Derby the two teams either side of them in 6th and 8th I think they've got Ipswich as well in the running yeah big run in in the chase for the playoffs or maybe even higher who knows given their run right let's go to the London Stadium next I think we'll come to this is all on you Who then, Gregor? Yeah. No, I watched it and it was hugely entertaining. Were you able to enjoy it while you were thinking, what time am I going to leave it?

18:05I don't know. Can I give a truthful answer to that? Yeah. Well, it's one of those where you write kind of, I don't know, you write a thousand words or whatever and then 500 of it has to go directly in the bin given the fact that there were goals in the 93rd and 96th minute that changed everything. And it was extraordinary. The most extraordinary thing about it, not only just the goals that West Ham scored to come back from 2-0 in time added on and then how chaotic the start of extra time was and the penalties and everything it was played out in front of a half empty stadium because so many of the fans left between Calvert-Lewin's 75th minute penalty which made it 2-0 and the 93rd minute when it was still 2-0 and you can almost understand that But every game had gone to extra time in the FA Cup so what on earth were they thinking of?

18:52Oh, well, you get to the 90th odd minute, Alison, you're 2-0 down. I can understand it a bit. And West Ham hadn't been great. People started leaving at 75 minutes. They did. They did. They did. They did. Do you know what? Can I make a silly point? Adama Troy. I felt I saw the birth. I felt I saw the birth of him as a footballer. I mean. Wow. Because we all know how devastating he can be. You know, I saw him at wharves when he came to the London Stadium and he came on and he changed the game. Obviously, his pace and power is extraordinary. Is he the latest ever substitution? Because he came off at the 125th minute.

19:31Probably, yeah. That's one for Bill Edgar. Is that the latest substitution ever been made? I don't know, is it? Great possibly. But isn't that the best you've ever seen him play? Yeah, well... It's the longest I've ever seen him play because he's normally taken off or comes on. Yeah. He rarely... It's lovely when he's cutting into his right foot from the left and delivering those little crosses that are so often. Wonderful crosses. That's where De Sasse got Also Castellanos headed against the post Yeah Disgusting a goal Yeah he was excellent And Bowen was kind of driving force as well So a crazy crazy game And the upshot is We've not even mentioned Sorry we haven't even mentioned The fact that West Ham had to turn to 20 year old goalkeeper Finlay Eric For his senior debut for West Ham Just a few minutes before the penalty kicks And he saved the first penalty it was like there was just too much narrative in this game were you able to see his demeanour as he was trying to work out if Ari Olu was going to be fit to continue or not he was so excited to get on he wasn't fearful at all and he got a great kind of great support from the fans every time he touched the ball before the penalties and then as I say he saved the first penalty he thought this could be a fairy tale story wasn't to be upshot is we ever mentioned Leeds I was just going to say the upshot is Leeds are into their first FV Cup semi-final for 39 years they'll play Chelsea it's a throwback it is it is Cass yes but you know is this they also lost Joe Rodon and Anton Stack it was a you know an energy sapping game you do have to although this is huge in isolation for Leeds getting to the FV Cup semi-final there's still a chance you know they're only four points above the drop zone Wigan are the only team still that ever ever relegated having won the FA Cup.

21:19There's still a chance, guys, that this could happen. I mean, if they lose those two players to injuries for stacks, looks like quite a nasty ankle one. You know, it could come at a cost. Oh, yeah. A manager certainly doesn't want to be losing players in FA Cup ties. Yeah. I mean, I think there's something about Leeds when I love teams that just have enormous character and sort of, I felt they've overachieved already because I thought they would be very close to going down. I mean, look, he went with an idea at the start of the season. Very big, very powerful Leeds team. And, you know, from last season, Greg, I remember we talking, weren't we, about the size of Nonto and Daniel James, not the biggest.

21:57And, you know, how would that work in the Premier League? I think they've done reasonably well. They don't win enough, but they don't get beat too much as well. You know, they will get draws lead. So I still think they'll be OK. OK. Their first visit to Wembley for something other than a playoff final for 30 years. and that was a 3-0 defeat to Aston Villa in the League Cup final What do you think Alison about the potential impact on the relegation battle for both these teams? West Ham looked dead on their feet at the end they play on Friday night in another huge game against Wolves Leeds have three days longer until they play Manchester United Both managers admitted that after the international break they were struggling a bit to pick the strongest team Do you think this game will have an effect on the outcome of the relegation battle?

22:42I think it'll have more of an effect on West Ham in a positive sense, because I think they played periods of very attractive football without Somerville. So when Somerville's back, I think you're looking at a team that are too good to go down. I really do. I do. We also saw, I mean, ironically, you mentioned at the beginning there, you know, great drama played out with a half full stadium. but that was a huge lesson because as you know I think part of the reason Spurs are in bother is because of their fans the huge lesson there was before the fans left honestly it felt like I don't know if you felt this being there but watching it I felt like I was watching West Ham at Wembley in the cup final there was that period in the second half where it was swashbuckling football the crowd were really getting behind it that sort of the way the fans sometimes groan a lot at the London Stadium and it feels like tumbleweed sometimes because they're not happy with the way the club is run but they forgot all that.

23:52So it was a reminder that when the West Ham fans the London Stadium doesn't have to be awful it can be amazing when the fans get behind the team and the team show a bit of spirit they just they just they look they can look briefly magnificent and in a way that their nearest rivals for the drop spurs do not in their own stadium look magnificent and you don't get that raw I mean they ruined they ruined my theory a little bit by leaving from 75 minutes on because you kind of think well hang on hang on you've just shown what can happen if you all come together But anyway, I think it's proven that with Somerville back, they can play attractive, devastating football.

24:38They need to put away their chances. But, you know, hitting the post, this can happen. But I just feel rather than being downcast because they lost on penalties, there are no penalty shootouts in the survival to stay in the Premier League. They've got the ingredients there. if the fans from now on stay, even if they're losing in a Premier League game, as long as the fans stay there and give them some encouragement, that I think Worstown will take from that. Looking at them, I can see them staying up. I really can see them staying up because that to me looked like a proper team that knows what it's about.

25:16And I love the body language of the players. You know, they were trying to forge connections with the fans. They're on board with the tactics. They seem to like the manager. I think they will take away from this we're going to be we've got enough character and players to stay up you asked me about the effect on Leeds in their relegation fight I don't think they're in I don't think they're quite as stretched as Wigan were when they went down and won the FA Cup I just don't I feel like they've got just enough to be able to make it a positive but there is that danger there is that danger that it pulls you along so emotionally that you're a bit drained for some key Premier League games that is a possibility and their running gets really interesting at the end they play West Ham on the final day so they want to get their business done sharpish so they can focus on the FA Cup Nuno incidentally his kind of message to everyone afterwards was we've proven to ourselves never give up that was the message he gave to everyone afterwards so yeah very but were you there did you feel that's true Do you feel that they are a team now That can put the poor start to the season behind them?

26:30Yeah, I mean they were a bit depleted They really were missing three of their first choice back four Jean-Claire Todibo, Mavropanos, Aaron Wan-Bissaka All missing And he actually turned to Max Killman for the first time In a long, long time Yeah, as in pride is he He played against Burton in the last but one round I think But he's really very hesitant To turn to Max Kilman Ever since West Ham's 3-0 defeat When he labelled embarrassing against Wolves So he still might have to turn to him again When Wolves come to London Stadium On Friday So they were depleted And they were depleted in midfield And they had players on international duty But having said all that Undoubtedly West Ham are a different team And London Stadium is a very different atmosphere To what it was even just a few months ago so I think West Ham still have a chance definitely a better chance than Spurs would you say that?

27:26I mean it's all changed it's all changed Alison let's get your reaction to De Zerbe's appointment I mean we've spoken about this in the last couple of episodes but you wrote a column in the Sunday Times saying that you weren't sure about the logic of it because of his style of football and what he's going to do between now and the end of the season to help Spurs stay in the Premier League Well, we got to the ridiculous situation where trying to bring in a firefighter for Spurs backfired. So they've gone for the long term appointment. But if Deserby has hinted that this is not the time for my philosophy, this is the time to win games and so on.

28:05But there's no evidence at all that he has that ability. he's not he's not um when he when he joined Brighton the Brighton players actually said we found it baffling so okay he's not in in understanding what he wanted from them so if he doesn't if he's not going to tell the Spurs players what he wants from them because he's worried that they'll find it baffling and then they'll take too long to get the points they need, what is he going to do? That Spurs are in too, I think they're in too much bother for it to be merely a case of, oh, come on, lads, you can do this. They need more than that. And yet he hasn't got that firefighting background to show that he can, there's a skill to being able to take a group of players that are demoralised and giving them enough self-belief to get them over the line in a very specific reason, the reason being to avoid relegation.

29:07And I think it's a huge risk. De Zerbe might be a great long-term manager for Spurs if they stay in the Premier League. I just don't think he's the right person to do that job. I said to a friend, he's a Spurs fan, would you rather have had someone like Roy Hodgson on a seven-game contract or De Zerbe on a five-year contract? because I think Roy would get one more point out of them than Deservey would. Simply because he's very good. He's very good. I'm not saying he's the right appointment here. I'm saying someone like that. Someone who knows. Like Roy Hodgson, his first game with Bristol City.

29:45He wins. You know, how does he do that? He does that because he's very, very good at getting to know people. That's his thing. Lifting them up, getting to know them, just seeing how they tick, making them feel really good about themselves. You do all the difficult stuff when the season's over for De Zerbe, but I don't see how he can be two people at once. You know, obviously, Roy, very well. Now, has he ever said to you in the years that he's been in management, I had a really bad group and was aware of how difficult the group could be, of taking over? Because to me, I look not so much the manager at the minute.

30:21I don't think that's the most important thing at Spurs. I look at that group of players and think, who is going to push that group within the dressing room because they look the worst group of players that I think you would manage in the Premier League I just don't like them I think I just don't like the attitude I think it's too many of them who think they're doing Spurs a favour by being there and so to me it's because I'm sure along the way Roy might say cheer up I had a group at Palace at this year particularly what a great group you know and I spoke to Alex Neal about Millwall on Friday said, well, I've got a wonderful group of players.

30:57Off air. Said, great. They're just their attitude to want to be better, do well. And sometimes that can be the most important thing, that you don't really have to do too much. And Roy might be, you know, would probably go to Bristol City and having the first game and thinking, well, no, these are a good group. They're not doing well and the results haven't been great. That's why I'm here. Yeah, but the art of going in and having an immediate impact is to see beyond what you can see, Tony. So if you were put in charge of Spurs, your job would be to see beyond the fact that you think they're a poor group of players.

31:32Your job would be to see the best in a bad bunch and to look at them individually and think, OK, I don't like that about you, but I do like that about you. Forget the stuff you don't like about them. And that's an art form. It's a very specific form of management is to pick on someone's good points and make them feel that they're fantastic. Okay, I totally understand that. But what I would say is that there's a number of Spurs players who actually think their future's brighter elsewhere. So I would find it difficult because I know what you mean. You're saying it's trying to get even their bad points and do well.

32:08I'm not sure some of them players, their bad points, they're prepared to even try and change. I really don't like, you know, some of the rhetoric that's come out of Spurs about who, you know, whether it's Atletico Madrid for Romero or whether it's Van de Ven, who seems to be, who was supposedly one of the greatest centre-halves in the Premier League history. Whatever's happened to him in the last six, eight weeks, I do not know. But there's others who have had their head turned. Because most of that Spurs group, I can guarantee you, would be sold for good money, even though it's been difficult.

32:39But they've got good money on a lot of them. And that would be my concern about, is there a heart really in it? Because I haven't seen that in Spurs. enough and I've been there half a dozen times this year and I think I've said to Greg at times haven't I about cool this is a tough group you know you just see it and I'm not in the dress room I'm not the training ground but I just look at what I see from them when it I mean Van de Ven at Fulham he's got Archie Gray at left back and he's the captain of the day right he's never ever like getting Archie Gray near him you know he's just playing his game and he's jogging out when they kick the ball and they're trying to play high line, he's kicking, he's jogging.

33:17He's jogging to the halfway line. So their best, or apparently one of their best players, who they will get good money for, seems a bit lazy in what he's doing at the moment. Interesting. Is Deserby the right person to ignore the long-term implications of all that and just focus on the short term? I don't think he is. Interesting. Well, I think Spurs could well be in the relegation zone by the time they play in the weekend because West Ham play on Friday night against Wolves and a point behind West Ham as it stands so very interesting weekend the Premier League action ahead after the break we'll turn our attention to Manchester City's 4-0 thrashing of Liverpool but first it's a quiz question from Bill Edgar's devilishly difficult FA Cup quiz on the Times website who sent a penalty over the crossbar when playing for Manchester City against Liverpool in October 2018, 17 months after his goal from a spot kick when playing against City was disallowed because he took two touches.

34:21Don't worry, I'll give you four options. Was it Leroy Sané, Riyad Mahrez, Kevin De Bruyne or Raheem Sterling? Find out the answer after the break.

34:41If your eyes are the windows to your soul and your glasses are the windows to your eyes, then it's pretty important to find your perfect frames. That's why at Warby Parker, we've made shopping for eyewear as easy and fun as can be. Peruse endless styles in our stores or use our app to virtually try on frames and get personalized recommendations. To find your next favorite pair of glasses, sunglasses, or contact lenses, or to locate your nearest Warby Parker store, head over to warbyparker.com. That's worbyparker.com.

35:39Noom GLP-1-RX program involves healthy diet, exercise, and support. Individual results may vary. Meds and personalization based on clinical need. Not reviewed by FDA for safety, efficacy, or quality. No affiliation with Novo Nordisk, Inc., the only U.S. source of FDA-approved semaglutide. Not available in all 50 U.S. states. When you manage procurement for multiple facilities, every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Granger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. that's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked safe and running smoothly call 1-800-GRAINGER click grainger.com or just stop by Grainger for the ones who get it done

36:34Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times I'm Greg Robertson alongside Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd before the break I asked a quiz question and the answer who got the answer I think it was like we both agreed we both said it we both locked in each other went Mahrez Mahrez that's right Mahrez was playing for Leicester City in May 2017 his left foot shot struck his right foot which was slipping and entered the net so Mahrez with a two touch penalty which he can't do anymore it's a retake now isn't it yeah VAR will get that one Okay to Liverpool Back page of the times today Cass as we're looking in front of us We gave up Says Van Dijk After Liverpool's 4-0 thrashing by Manchester City In the FA Cup quarterfinal At the Etihad And we were talking about this earlier Cass The strange thing about it was Liverpool were quite good For the first half of five minutes Hugo Eketiki and Wurtz Were linking well They had a couple of chances Mo Salah had a really good chance Which Mo Salah and his pomp Would definitely have done better than kick out for a throw-in.

37:38But as ever, so, so brittle once they concede a goal or face a setback and then they collapsed. Yeah. Reading, you know, Paul Joyce this morning and we gave up, says Van Dijk. And like you said, we talked about the opening periods of the game. And then you've had Shabozlai commenting as well. And then you've had the manager. So, you know, the manager, your best player and your captain. have all made a comment about their performance. I'm hoping that that goes in the dressing room, what Van Dijk has said. Stick it on the notes board. Stick it on the notes board. Who then? Who gave up? Because we've both been there in a dressing room, yeah?

38:21And someone put their hand out, who are you talking about? I'm talking about you. Then it starts. Then the conversation starts. Okay? And I feel like, I mean, I didn't like the performance. And I know Liverpool started well, as in they looked like creative. I saw too many flicks, too many tricks in the game. Burtz is a wonderfully gifted player. He's a seal. He can keep the ball on his nose and roll it around. You know, that's how I look at it and think, that's not Liverpool way. I met Graham Souness on Friday. I shook his hand. The grip is like, literally. If anyone remembers Boys from the Black Stuff, which is a film that Graham Souness was in about Liverpool and the social work, you know, people unemployed up in Liverpool.

39:06And they have a character called Shake Hands in there who crushes everybody's hands. It's a story of years gone by. I shook Graham Sands and I immediately thought, proper midfielder, that one. And Graham was, and there was Jimmy Case, and there was Ronnie Whelan, and there was others. And I'm looking at this Liverpool team that have become a bit of a five-a-side type of team. and they have moments, players out of form. I just, I see so many downsides to this current Liverpool team. You know, I've lost a lot of games this year and the manner of some of the defeats has been awful. I'm trying to think of reasons how they can beat PSG in the Champions League and I'm like, well, if PSG turn up, they won't.

39:51Like last year, Liverpool went and won it in Paris, but I always knew that they could get beat at Anfield because PSG play the same at home and they do away. They come after you. And I'm afraid any team that gets behind Liverpool, like City did, and fair play, City were quite direct and some of their, you know, wanting to get behind Liverpool's players in certain positions, whether it was full-backs or centre-halves, they were doing it. Shirky made a great little ball, didn't he, to Semenya for the goal. You know, and Canate is getting beaten so easily on crosses where he's got the wrong side, even against Brighton a few weeks back.

40:29Welbeck's got behind him. He doesn't even know where he is. And this has been a common theme all season of where Liverpool are gifting goals. And it's not just, there's not a scapegoat at Liverpool. There's about, you could name about six of them that there was who have not played to the level and the expectation. I look at them and think, I can't believe they were champions last year. Alison you know the sort of inquest that Van Dijk is sort of talking about here they've been here before as he said in this he said himself like we've been like this for 75 % of the season now Well it's got so bad hasn't it that the captain cannot even think of a way of dressing it up No I mean after defeats you can come out and you can say oh the players take responsibility and then indicate that you've immediately learnt from it in the dressing room and you'll be better next time.

41:21But because it's gone Groundhog Day for Liverpool, Van Dijk, who always speaks to the media regardless, so you've got to commend him for that. And he always speaks properly as well, you know, in a considered way. He doesn't pay lip service to the role. He will stop and talk properly. He's trying to say it's the player's responsibility because he knows slot's under pressure. But all that's doing is underlining the fact that if so many players are regularly underperforming, what's the one thing that's supposed to help you with that? It's the management technique, isn't it? And so he's sort of saying there's no hope.

41:59That's what Van Dijk's words said to me was there's no hope. It's a disease almost. It's a thing that permeates this group of players is that we don't seem to be able to have that spirit to cope with adversity within matches. You know, Liverpool teams of the past, if they had a hiccup or an embarrassing defeat, you'd feel like they were going to be really stung by it and react to it in lots of different ways. But you just feel like this is a thing they have. It's in them now. This is the way the season has been. That's what Van Dijk's words were saying. It's happening so often. And it's happening in spite of the fact that they've got expensive players.

42:42It's happening in spite of the fact they have a player on the pitch in Subozlai who, for most of the time, is leading by example and sort of letting his teammates know, you know, with a bit of energy, a bit of class. you can they're not even taking that as an example they're so withdrawn within themselves and so full of self-doubt about what they are that this result, I think you asked me at the very start Gregor, what was the most significant result this is so significant because it proves that, it sounds awful to say it out loud but I think Slott is out of his depth there are problems and he doesn't know how to solve them.

43:25Could anyone though, I mean we have to If you feel like you've got to speak with Respect for Mohamed Salah Because of what a great player he is But for most of the season It's not an exaggeration to say Liverpool Have been playing with 10 men It was sad to watch this game Because as I say That chance in the first half where He gave Kusunov the opportunity to By dithering Instead of getting a shot off And when he finally did Kusunov got the toe in and he kicked out for a throw And the one in the second half that he blazed let's just get that archetypal Mohamed Salah chance on his left foot leaning up the far top corner boom it's in the stand and then the penalty miss and you just think this kind of long farewell is going to be torturous if he's actually Well a better manager would deal with the long farewell don't give him a long farewell if you don't feel he wants a long should deserve a long farewell in respect to his current form Hang on there's no easy way of dealing with that because if he's on the bench then the focus on his long farewell is on this guy Well, you don't let it become this.

44:27How has it become this? I would add in the farewell is the last game of the season, OK? It's not with six, seven games today in Champions League. And you mentioned there about Salah. And, you know, I feel like I'm being a traitor towards Salah as a Liverpool fan, that I'm questioning someone so great who's been so brilliant, but it's all past. And, you know, you said about, you know, he doesn't warrant a place in the team. He clearly doesn't at the moment. And there is a reason he's been dropped three times this season. He hasn't been dropped once. This hasn't just happened in, you know, April.

45:03This has happened before Christmas and when Liverpool went through their first bad run. This is the third time it's happened to him this season. So it's not like it's been, oh, he's been brilliant. I looked at his goals, you know, of what he did last year. He's 50 % down on his goals from the same period up until where we are today. He's 50 % down on goals, which he was something like 33 at this stage last time. I think 17 the previous season. So it's a 50 % drop off. So it's clearly, and we could go, Trent might have been a bigger effect than anybody on him because Trent was the first time passer.

45:41He was the guy that gave it early all the time. Whether it was a ball that came across and he would just hit first time. You know Salah got some wonderful goals By first time passes by Trent And I'm watching a guy That I don't think Merits now that he's placing In the Liverpool team Two sides to the story As well as the Southampton Arsenal game I mean City were Were they getting back to something Appearing close to their best I mean they look different too Don't they? Yeah they do They're playing a little bit more direct The final goal even where they kind of drew Liverpool on and then played really insensibly through and O 'Reilly got it back from.

46:21That was a beautiful move. Yeah, they're playing with a little bit more purpose. It's slightly different with Doku and Semenya who will be prepared to get to the byline at times and they will sometimes play inside. But they've got a midfield player in Shirky that can find a five-yard ball and set someone away. And Haaland, you know, okay, he's been on a barren run. But boy, if you give him chances, he will get goals. we don't have to it's not rocket science with Haaland is it if he gets chances he's going to score it does feel right at the stage of the season where we're kind of like we're talking about things we've spoken about already like we're saying Arsenal wobbling we've been here before we're saying Liverpool crumbling we've been here before we're saying our City back we've been here before are they are they looking a bit different here Alison are they looking ominous I know I do there's something about the makeup of the team as well that is Cousin off coming in with Gaye Mark Gaye it's just it's young it's fast it's fearless no one seems to be running with my idea that Semenyu is the player of the season no I did that the weekend as well do you agree with me yeah I do I can't believe people are ignoring him 11 goals are assessed since joining in January and his all round demeanour I mean what a joy to have him in your team well he's slipped into the club Alison hasn't he that's right that's why he's never ever been away he's player of the season yeah I mean it's astonishing to do that go Bournemouth to City and not even have a hiccup no amazing yeah why haven't Liverpool got him and also how he played for Bournemouth he was fantastic for Bournemouth that's why City went after him I'm sure there would have been nearly every club trying to get him Jericho was a joy to watch too yeah he is you know even taking his misstep on the bench putting on Hugo Ecotiki's shirt what do you make of that guys um I just think sometimes you think and make look at the spur of the moment you might do something would I have you know no I wouldn't be wearing other team shirts you know sitting in the bench but look you get told off once and that's enough you shouldn't be doing it a second time should you ah there's got to be more room for a sense of humour in football yeah and finally on City Bernardo Silva Pet Blinder's kind of let slip at the end that he's set to leave in the summer where do we think he will rank among the modern City greats we're talking about De Bruyne, Company, Turi, Silva, Guero.

48:46Where would you put him? I think he's 450 appearances. I think he's the unsung hero of all of them because he's just so reliable. He's often understated. He doesn't seek anything glamorous in what he does. He's just so consistent, so selfless. So that he doesn't, rarely after a city wind, you give him the headline chat. But if you look at it in more depth, You kind of think, oh, tick-tock, tick-tock, that's down to him. So I think he's worth as much as any of the greats you've listed. For you, Cass? I would say that sort of understated is the perfect word for him, but there's always been someone slightly better.

49:30I always think David Silva was slightly better. I always felt Kevin De Bruyne was slightly better. They were allowed to be better. Yeah, and no, I'm not questioning him because he's been phenomenal. You don't stay at a football club that long And have suffered an impact And this year has probably been one of his best years Because there's been games That he's really run the show And that's what he's capable of So it's not putting him down He's going to be a city legend without a doubt And what he's achieved How many titles has he won? Five or six? Since he's been there? A lot Yeah Okay Final game of the weekend was Chelsea 7-0 win against Port Vale League 2 bound Port Vale we discussed a lot of Chelsea on Thursday's show Alison after Mark Cucurello's interview in the international break he said he was wrong that the club were kind of wrong to sack Enzo Maresca getting a bit tired of the club signing kids a lot of the time that followed on from Enzo's flirtations with Madrid and then boom Enzo is suspended for two games did you think this was a slightly move by Chelsea?

50:38Well, I mean, clubs hate it when you hark back to previous regimes. They really do. And you've got this ridiculous situation, I feel, where you've got a relatively young and inexperienced manager in Resinia who, first of all, what the hell is he doing acknowledging the sort of stuff that people say about him being, I mean, he's making it clear that he reads the criticism of his demeanor and his words and you shouldn't. That's rule number one. It doesn't matter how great or non-great you are as a manager, people will say rude things about you and take the piss, right? And the way to respond as the manager is to pretend none of that is happening.

51:22It's up to you whether you read it or not, but do never, never acknowledge it. Never acknowledge that you know that people are saying you're like David Brent. Never do that, right? But the fact that he does, he knows about it, that there are doubts about him having enough authority at the club, whether he's there as a stooge almost, who's making the decisions. He's aware of that. This is a way of, a sort of way, they think, of letting people know that he's in charge, except he frames the dropping of Fernandes as a group decision. So it's not his decision. He's been allowed to drop him, if you like, because the people higher up in the hierarchy are allowing him to do it.

52:11So I think it was a move to try and show that there is a power structure at Chelsea and the players are not allowed to just say what they like. And this shows that our manager has authority. I think all it's done is slightly undermining because of the way he portrayed it. I didn't believe, when he talked about it, I didn't really believe Rosinha felt that it was the right thing to do or that it would help the group or help the individual or help him in any way. Was it necessary to make it public at all? You could have just dropped him for the next two games. You do what you want. And great managers do that.

52:53They run the team how they want to run them and let people speculate if they want to speculate. But I don't, I don't, I just think that's, I mean, I don't even know that I believe that dropping a key player for two matches is productive, really. if you really want to I mean in a way you're creating more if there's a problem there if there's a disconnect between the player and the club and the player is keen on a move to Real Madrid or thinks that might be a possibility if you drop him for two matches aren't you letting him know you're not actually as loved as you thought you were anyway so by all means go it's not it's not going to make it's not going to make him think what earth did I think about going to Real Madrid I love it at Stamford Bridge another side to this as well is Enzo Fernandes living in the real world thinking that Real Madrid he's going to join Real Madrid but that's part of it you want players who believe they're good enough for that don't you that sort of size of ego that's what you want he's expensive and he's won the World Cup why wouldn't he think he could play for Real Madrid I have no problem with him having that ego it's about managing the ego and I don't know as you say publicly dropping someone for two games.

54:17It's unusual and I don't think it solves problems from the player perspective or from the club perspective or from the manager's perspective. Just finally then, Martin Samuel wrote his column on the weekend and Sunday Times saying that the Chelsea project may be starting to unravel. Do you feel that that's a possibility? Or do you feel that they might even... The one thing that I found interesting from this was that Rosinior said that we already know what we're going to do in the summer to take the next step. And if that is not signing a few experienced players, the players that will take them towards silverware as opposed to continue this project of hoovering up the best young talent in Europe and South America, then the project's over.

55:01But do you feel that before, that kind of what we're seeing with Enzo, with Cucurea, even the kind of rumours about Cole Palmer, do you feel that it is approaching that kind of make or break moment for this kind of Chelsea? Yeah, I mean, there's every possibility they could cash in on the big names and just continue to buy lesser known youngsters and feel that they if you know if you just keep repeating the process like kneading bread you eventually get to a point where it rises and it will work that's against most perceptions of how you build a football club I mean I still I still believe I still believe the Chelsea owners are slightly obsessed with Brighton actually I don't know they've got over that I think they want to be Brighton and it's partly why they've appointed a young manager they saw that Fabian Herzler came in with no Premier League experience very young and was able to act with authority and they think well we can have we can have a really young manager who's got no Premier League experience who can act with authority but they're completely overlooking the fact that their modelling at Brighton surpasses Chelsea's to some degree I still think Chelsea have a good eye for a youngster obviously, but that Brighton have so many older players in their team.

56:17It's balance. It's always about balance. You can't be that narrow viewed about what makes a Premier League club. But you make it sound, Gregor, as if they really do know what they're doing. I suspect there'll be arguments along the path. They're a club that argue internally. I don't think they'll have a clear path yet at all. OK, well, Chelsea still have a chance of lifting the FA Cup. they play Leeds in the semi-final at the end of this month and still in with a shout of Champions League football next season the Champions League action returns this week with Arsenal's trip to Lisbon Real Madrid take on Bayern Munich Barcelona against Atletico Madrid and as we say PSG against Liverpool we'll be back on Thursday to review all of that there's also another big game this weekend Millwall against Norwich which is why Cass has darted off early Millwall with a huge 2-1 win against Middlesbrough on Friday to put themselves in the automatic promotion spots Millwall in the Premier League it could happen we'll be back on Thursday to talk about that and all the Champions League action hope to see you then

57:36When you manage procurement for multiple facilities every order matters. But when it's for a hospital system, they matter even more. Grainger gets it and knows there's no time for managing multiple suppliers and no room for shipping delays. That's why Grainger offers millions of products in fast, dependable delivery so you can keep your facility stocked, safe, and running smoothly. Call 1-800-GRAINGER, click grainger.com, or just stop by. Grainger, for the ones who get it done.

58:09In 2004, Andrew Malkinson was sentenced to life in prison for a crime he didn't commit. Now another man has been convicted of the brutal rape in Greater Manchester, and we can reveal the true story of what happened that night. I'm Emily Dugan from the Sunday Times, and I've been investigating one of the biggest miscarriages of justice in modern British history. Listen to the full podcast series with new episodes by searching for 17 Years wherever you get your podcasts.