PSG make it look easy. Arsenal make it look hard

0:00Gregor Robertson: Fresh air, longer days, a chance to reset. This season, let therapy be part of your spring cleaning, clearing mental clutter, shaking off stuckness, and building something better. Grow Therapy helps you get there. Whether it's your first time in therapy or your 50th, Grow makes it easier to find a therapist who fits you, not the other way around. You can search by what matters, like insurance, specialty, identity, or availability, and get started in as little as two days. And if something comes up, you can cancel up to 24 hours in advance at no cost. Grow helps you find therapy on your time. Whatever challenges you're facing, Grow Therapy is here to help.

0:40Grow accepts over 100 insurance plans. Sessions average about$21 with insurance, and some pay as little as$0, depending on their plan. Visit growtherapy.com slash start now today to get started. That's growtherapy.com slash start now. growtherapy.com slash start now. Availability and coverage vary by state and insurance plan.

1:11Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Arsenal are into the Champions League semi-finals for the second year running, but they made it look hard work against Sporting Lisbon in a 0-0 draw at the Emirates. Liverpool are out, beaten by holders PSG in a very comfortable manner, and there were thrilling games in Munich and Madrid as Atletico and Bayern complete the semi-final picture. On today's show, we'll discuss all four quarter-finals and look ahead to the rest of the competition. We'll also discuss hair-pulling, Achilles injuries, and preview a bumper weekend of Premier League action.

1:44I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have Martin Samuel, the chief correspondent for The Times and Sunday Times, Tony Cascarino, the former Millwall, Ireland and Marseille striker and Gregor Robertson, the former footballer turned journalist, is with me as usual. Martin, you were at both the English side's games this week. Yes. Did you wish you were at the other ones instead? I literally were getting it. Absolutely. Absolutely. I don't know why. Not quite as exciting, but professionalism dictated that those were the games you must have been. You go with English clubs, don't you? That's what you do.

2:14And let's start with the English side that's gone through. Arsenal getting through 1-0 on aggregate against Sporting. You were there last night at the Emirates. Another remarkable performance by a team that has been so lauded, quite rightly so, all season as a brilliant outfit. I don't know what they look like. What's happened to this team? They didn't look very good, I know that much. So yeah, look, they've got through to the semi-finals of the Champions League, which everyone seems wildly excited about because they've now reached back-to-back semi-finals, sort of forgetting that they actually didn't finish the job the last time and I can't see why a club the size of Arsenal would be celebrating semi-finals.

2:57but it was another one of those, you know, this part of the season, you know, it was another April Arsenal performance. It's well known they're not strong at this part of the season and they weren't again last night and people are saying, oh, they got the job done or whatever, but I don't actually hold with that. If they'd have put 10 men behind the ball and set out to get a goalless draw against Sporting Lisbon, then you go, yeah, yeah, yeah, they got the job done. They didn't actually try to win the game. They just wanted to draw 0-0 because that will get them through. And they drew 0-0. So, you know, good luck, happy days.

3:34Not very interesting, but you did it. Well done. But that was Arsenal trying to win the game. They weren't trying to draw 0-0. They were trying to win the game. Against a team that was, you know, inferior to them, so therefore defending quite a lot. Was that not fair, at least? Yeah, but it wasn't... Was it one shot on target? Was it one shot on target the whole game? Well, so 0.93, Arsenal 0-0 had the lowest combined XG of any game in the Champions League this season. This is the second round. So it's not really, you know, look, I saw Lennox Lewis beat David Ture in the World Heavyweight and he had a height and reach advantage that was incredible and David Ture was a great puncher.

4:14That's all he had. He was a great puncher, a little for heavyweight New Zealander. He just ate Lennox Lewis's jab for 12 rounds. the most boring fight you'll ever see, Lennox Lewis retains the heavyweight title, and that's it. And if that was Arsenal, the extent of Arsenal's ambition last night was just to put, you know, Lisbon on the end of a jab and just win the whole thing on points, you'd go, yeah, okay, yeah, that's fair enough. But they were trying to win, and so you look at that and think, I'm not sure that's sustainable for the rest of the season to win the title. I'm not sure that's sustainable at Manchester City.

4:52And if Man City win on Sunday, then their game in hand is at home to Crystal Palace and you've got to fancy them there. And then they are neck and neck with Man City on points, five games to go each. And if they play like that in those five games, I think City will overtake them. Gregor?

5:11Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I mean, I watched this game. I haven't watched the PSG Liverpool game the night before. PSG are just an absolute joy to watch. And also in the knowledge, as the goals came through in the Bayern Real game as to the level and standard of those teams as well. I've defended Arsenal all season, really, because there's not one way of playing football and you play a way that's effective to win the game. And they've done that for swathes of the season. But what they're doing now isn't really effective. And even their set pieces aren't effective. And I think if they're going to, I agree with Martin, if they're going to do anything between now and the end of the season I think they need to show more ambition in their play and like how can you do that though because the players are tired like the you know the forwards are out of form I understand all the context no Odegaard no Saka Rice was coming off his sick bed you've got like Maduiki's now injured Martinelli just keeps running down alleyways now like there was parts of the season where you thought him and Trossard he comes on sub he has more effect yeah but at the start of the season him and Trossard were duking it out and Strossard was holding down the place and deservedly all his gold contributions and now neither of them are doing anything and like you see like Arteta's just scrambling around to try and find someone to give him a bit of inspiration and he can't find it Well they turn into a teenager aren't they?

6:33Gregor Robertson: so yeah it's and you know Arteta obviously had an interesting week saying that he was on fire and like so pumped up and then you wonder whether like his sort of emotional state is a help or a hindrance. The same with the Emirates, although they were supportive last night. Mark, I don't know more about that, but they seemed supportive. Yeah, but tense. Opening 10 minutes was good though. It was great, you know, but it was tense. And what Gregor was saying about Arteta there, he's absolutely right. There was a moment, Sporting Lisbon have a penalty claim. And, you know, in real time as it happened, you're thinking penalty all day and it was only when you saw the replay that you see that the contact isn't much of a push and the guy's propelled himself forward or whatever.

7:27But in real time, you're thinking, this is a penalty because he's got both his hands on the guy's back mascara. But the referee doesn't give it and it goes to VAR and the VAR supports that. And you're thinking, right, well, this is one up to Arsenal here with the ref because Sporting have tried to have one over on him. And, you know, so he's thinking, right, I'm going to keep an eye out for you. And then two minutes later, Arteta manages to get himself booked. And you're thinking, mate, you've lost all the goodwill. You've had a go at the officials or whatever. You've lost all the goodwill that you've just brought up because they think Sporting and Lisbon have cheated.

8:06And the next two or three decisions went completely against them. You know, they took a quick free kick that was a breakaway and got hauled back. There was a non... Well, I couldn't see the foul on the goalkeeper. There was an in-swinging corner. It was the best corner of the night. The goalkeeper looked as if he was under pressure, made a right pig's ear of it. You're thinking, mate, why have you managed to put yourself in this? He was on your side. Tony, your reaction to some of the points the guys have made about Arsenal, but I want to come back to talk about the forwards and the lack of goals and the lack of threat in a minute.

8:38but your reaction to some of the points the guys have made. Well, I'd had the magnificent decision of watching Arsenal for 10 minutes and going, it's 1-1 out there. Smug choice. I'm going to Bayern. I'm going to Bayern. It was 1-1. I switched over. But I caught up with it. And look, I'm going off the game against Bournemouth as well. Arsenal are slowing the game down to a ridiculous pace. And now it started with Raya at Bournemouth and getting on the ball, touching it, touching it, touching it. So everyone's getting set. in that position. There's no risk of the ball, as in you might surprise someone by just playing a long diagonal immediately.

9:15That's not happening. Then if you go in front of him, well, what's Zubamendi doing? Zubamendi, to me, is a bad version of Jorginho because all I'm doing is seeing him getting it, giving it, moving it. And we can see he's technically gifted, but it's all players slowing down the play. So what does that do? It affects the forwards. The forwards will get the ball slightly later, not as early, and they're not in form as well. You know, Madawaki's not shown what he did earlier in the season. As Gregor said, you know, look on the other side, Martinelli. Martinelli, every Arsenal fan's pulling their hair out with him because they can see when he's on and his game is good, he has to be direct.

9:50He has to be prepared to take people on. And that affects Jokeres. Can you get that back, though? That was the question I was going to come to as a forward when you're in this point in the season when the pressure is so high, but you're not scoring goals and you're not really creating lots, as proved by those stats. how can you get that back what can Arsenal do

10:10Gregor Robertson: play things quicker, do it quicker, play with purpose they didn't start like that in fairness, they started playing with Wrega it's no surprise to all of us now I watched the first 10 minutes and I guarantee nearly every Arsenal fan will say the same we know what's coming in the game, we know how it's going to develop I switched back a few times and I watched it for a few minutes and I thought this is no different from what I've seen in other parts of the game. I'm not seeing a different dynamic in the team. Is there any strange sense that playing against Manchester City and in-form Manchester City...

10:46They're not going to beat them. They are going to get beat. If they play like they are, I can't see how they win the game. There's no way that the tactics that they've got at the minute might help City at home, backs to the wall, channel some of those things, try and score from a set piece. that might help Arsenal in a strange way. A lot of ifs there. There are a lot of ifs. It's possible. Of course it's possible. You know, if they get the same result, I'll put it in the match report, if they get the same result in Manchester that they got last night, happy days. It's been a very good end of the week.

11:19They've got to the Champions League semi-final. They've got the draw at City. And they will still be top. And they'll still be top and it'll be harder for City. But it won't be impossible for City because you've still got that, those five games where 0-0 and a you know that isn't going to be enough you know when they play Newcastle Sporting last night isn't going to be enough Sporting didn't really go after them did they? No In a game that they had to win now City are going to go after you you know that you know the way they're playing they're playing obviously Shirky's come in and played them little balls in behind at Wargham well now there's a difference you're seeing Semenya Run being in the position you're seeing Doku do it they will cause Arsenal problems without doubt yeah I mean coming back to this competition then because as I say this is the crazy thing about Arsenal's season and the narrative that it's kind of developed they're in a Champions League semi-final for the second time they're six points clear in the Premier League with a big game at the weekend and we're talking about them in this state and I don't think unreasonably I think a lot of Arsenal fans feel the same you know I had a friend of mine who was there last night who went to the game and his reaction at full time was phew thank you know thank God for that

12:28Gregor Robertson: Yeah, and also you should say, as a game develops, if it's not developing the way you want, you do what you have to do to win the game. So we have to give them some credit for that. They saw it through, they got off the line. But that's not the way they wanted the game to develop and the games are never developing the way they want these days. It's really tough for everyone involved. And you look at their next opponents in this competition, if you want to keep it to this competition, Atletico Madrid. Well, Atletico Madrid are very good at a lot of the same things that Arsenal are very good at.

13:00plus they've got a lot of imagination in their forward line and that's what seems to be missing with Arsenal at the moment. They don't seem to have the imagination. And pace and purpose is coming back to Tony's point. You watch that breakaway goal that Lukman converts is a beautiful goal on Tuesday night. A really brilliant, purposeful attack. Everyone flooding forward. So much is made, isn't it, about Simeone and the teams and the way they run back. But they commit, don't they? they've evolved

13:31Gregor Robertson: I think they're the third highest scorers in the competition 34 goals but they've also conceded 26 they're not the same sort of team a lot of their money they've invested in recent years has been at the top end of the pitch and when they had Longley in the back you're not going to give him a chance he's not a first choice they're not the same team they still have that side they have several faces I think they still have that side to them everyone just keeps talking about the dark arts with Atletico but I don't think that's entirely fair anymore, it's not fair that's not all they are and so would you put them as favourites ahead of Arsenal for their semi-final before we come and talk about the other two teams?

14:10No I'd find it you still think Arsenal? That's the point about this narrative isn't it? They finish top of the table so many times we're not the only one, many football pundits columnists, writers in every form of the media, Arsenal are the strongest team in the Champions League could win the quadruple. They're now down to two trophies and we're going, God, they'll be pleased if they get one. It's crazy. But you still think they're favourites for this semi-final? I would say, well, Atletico in La Liga, is it third now? I think so, yeah. So, would I, instinctively, would I fancy the team that's leading the Premier League?

14:46They're actually fourth. They're fourth, right. I was going to say, I thought they'd let it slip a little bit. You know, instinctively, would I fancy the team that's leading the Premier League to beat the team that's fourth in La Liga? Well, yeah, I'd have my money on the Premier League. Even with Arsenal playing the way they are at the moment. But the problem is that why they're top of the league, Arsenal, is actually to do with stuff that happened a few months ago. It's not to do with how they're playing now. See, that goes to the point of, you know, PSG last season where they weren't a team that looked like winning the Champions League.

15:22but by the time that their knockout phase come, they bloody well did. Okay? And now we're looking at Arsenal and we're going, the last month has been really poor. Not only have they lost games, it's the way they've lost the games. They can't take this into the running and expect to get anything. Unless, I mean, I get a bit frustrated with the manager saying, I'm on fire and all this sort of, and then your team play like pussycats. And it's like, what we're seeing on the field is not exactly what the manager, and everyone's defending. Rice will say things, you know. I say the other night, I don't care what people think.

15:57You don't care. Which is the right thing to say, of course. We'll know the more you say, I don't care about, you know. They do care. I just feel like I'm watching Arsenal go the other way around. They've gone from being really good, like when PSG were really good, sorry, really poor, then got good. They're going from being really good not to be very good. Why is that though? Is that pressure, fitness, intensity, amount of games? you know English season injuries

16:25Gregor Robertson: injuries are big yeah I mean Timber as well is a huge loss big bloke play Muscara instead of White because White's had a few shaky games you always think the only person in the country who likes Ben White at the moment is Thomas Ducal yeah but Timber I always felt sorry for White earlier because Timber came in and took his place and you think White's been a great player for Arsenal for a number of years but now he can't you know he looks like he's third choice Califiori's injured again yeah really they're playing four centre-halves across the back floor again. That kind of speaks to their sense of ambition.

16:56The Saka thing's huge as well.

16:58Gregor Robertson: Yeah. You don't think. They've lost a lot of their best. Even Marino was a good option, someone who would often chip in with important goals. But I'm hearing this, we're all talking about this, it's still none of it might matter. Yeah, it might not. Still a few games away from something remarkable, and it's still possible. It's still all possible. They still have got like warriors at the back and I know they don't look quite as secure. There were a few times even in this game where Sportler kind of played one ball in behind Gabriel and they were through. They had a few half chances, the one that clipped the post in the first half.

17:35Greg, we've all been in football long enough to also recognise that if they failed, if they didn't make the Champions League final and they lost the league, we would all go, it's pretty obvious, what we witnessed in April, it was obvious that this team is on the decline. It's not on the up. I'm not thinking they'll be back, they'll be back and come in and players are on form. They've got a majority of their team playing poorly. So just to clarify, Martin's backing Arsenal to beat Atletico Madrid from the outset. You'd have them as marginal favourites. I think that was the kind of gist. Atletico for you?

18:12Atletico because Arsenal have to raise their performances and obviously it's not all on performance, but your performance will matter in a Champions League game against quality. Quality is the big difference in the Champions League. There comes a moment when if City sort of draw a level or they get within that where it suddenly becomes very real because at the moment when you've got this nine-point cushion, you're still looking at it going, yeah, but that's six points clear or nine points clear or whatever. and it's that sort of four wheels on my wagon, but I'm still rolling along type of thing.

18:48It's like Tottenham, when it suddenly becomes very, very real when you actually fall into the bottom three. Whilst there was a gap with West Ham or Nottingham Forest or whoever, it doesn't feel like Tottenham can go down because they're Tottenham and you're just thinking, this is a lot worse, they should have enough, you know. But I know you were calling it very early, But then suddenly, last weekend, it flipped and suddenly they're in the bottom three. And now it feels very real that they could go. And that's the Arsenal-Manchester City thing. At the moment, this cushion, it's almost a false sense of security because it looks massive.

19:33It looks like this huge game. It looks like Rory's six shots clear at the Masters after two rounds where you're going, what could possibly go wrong here? And then at the end of day three, you're looking at it going, how's that happened? How has he done that? Now, as it all's well, that ends well. And that could still happen with Arsenal. They get players back. They get a couple of results or something like that and on they go. But at the moment, I think there's a, you know, you're sort of, oh well we're in the Champions League so in final we're still six points clear but it's fragile and also Rory attacked yeah yeah yeah yeah Gregor final verdict on that you're obviously between them between those two sides and just Arsenal generally you know they've got a chance there are two outcomes out there in two weeks time we'll either be talking about Arsenal as might both things can't be true still top of the table and unfortunately Gregor yeah both things can't be true

20:35Gregor Robertson: I honestly can't choose between I think it's nepp and tuck between these two teams like going to Metropolitano is tough like he riles up the crowd and like there's a real connection there like that's a tough tough game but I still think I still think Arsenal could do it I mean Tottenham's put five past them over two legs like they're not they're not the same Atletico that everyone like associates do you think though he will be a different manager and it will be a different sort of set up in the semi-final. Possibly. They look better away as well. When they won at Barca, I thought they were terrific for a long period of the game and they didn't look so comfortable at home.

21:20I think it would be a much better game as well than people are giving it credit for. Everyone's going, oh, it'll be the kind of battle of the dark arts and all this kind of stuff. Maybe it's the game that Arsenal need. Yeah, exactly. You know, that type of game to come out of themselves, themselves. Because I've said all season, I thought Arsenal would win the league, but I never envisaged that Arsenal would become the Arsenal they are at the end of the season. Yeah, absolutely. Well, we'll be talking about Arsenal again on Monday, I'm sure, but a quick word just for Adamola Luckman. What a remarkable career he had, Gregor.

21:45Scoring in this game for Atletico Madrid. Charlton, Everton, RB Leipzig on loan, Fulham, Leicester. Fulham, of course, was where he missed that ridiculous Penenka, I think, West Ham. Atalanta now starring for Atletico Madrid in the Champions League. Didn't he get the winning goal at Atalanta as well for the Cup? Yeah, yeah. Didn't he get the hat-trick? Yeah, yeah. Got the hat-trick, didn't he? Hat-trick in the final. What a wonderful career. Let's talk about the other semi-final. We've already mentioned what a thrilling set of games they were. Tony, you were watching Bayern Munich against Real Madrid.

22:13I, like you, was kind of following it going, Christ, there's another goal. Oh, my gosh. Blimey. I think that first half was crackers. It was. Well, it started off with no airing goal. With a ridiculous... Who'd had a brilliant first leg. Made the loads of saves. It had everything. If you'd look back at all the great games you'd seen in your career, you would go Bayern Bayern versus Real Madrid what a ridiculous game you're upsetting Gregor a lot here well he spent his evening watching Arsenal sport let it go mate you're a pro no it had everything I had to I was there I mean I actually sent oh I got annoyed don't worry I got annoyed watching I got annoyed at Diaz playing so bloody well for Bayern and causing all sorts of problem with his running at full back the quality of the forward play Mbappe at one time he just went on a run and you just couldn't stop it him, his pace.

23:02And the forward areas had so much quality in there. Just quickly on the defining, Camavinga's sending off. Yeah. Harsh? I thought it was harsh. I mean, look, go by the rules or the laws of the game, yeah. I think there'll be a lot of that in the second half. Yeah, there will be. Yeah, it just held on it. Yeah, he held on it a tad too long. But also the ref looked like he kind of gave him the yellow card and then was like, oh, God, I've got to give him the red. Yeah, yeah, he did. A little bit harsh and obviously a defining moment in that game. Another word for Michael Alisse after last week. Again, a man of the match.

23:36I didn't even get to explain half of it. No, I was going to say the goals, Alisse and Diaz, towards the end of the game, what two strikes they were. And Kane's goal. I mean, if you ever want to show a young kid to be a striker, Kane's touch and he's finished. It's because that is absolute top notch quality. Tell us why. What about it? Well, because he gets it on one foot and then reverses it onto the other, the right foot and bends it in the bottom corner. And sends all the players the wrong way. Yeah, but with his touch, he's basically set himself up to hit it nearly first time. Well, he's looked and he's gone, I'm going to hit it there.

24:07It's a fabulous finish. No English player has scored more goals than Harry Kane's 12 in a single Champions League campaign. This was Kane's 50th club goal this season. He's got those 50 goals in 42 appearances. Mbappe has got 40 in 39. Haaland has got 33 in 45. Kane has now scored three or assisted two in each of his last five Champions League games against Real Madrid. I mean, the bloke just getting better and better, doesn't he? There's one you missed out. He's the first English player to score 50 goals for any club in Europe since 1931, I think. Really? I don't know who it was in 1931. That's Bill Edgar's quiz question at half-time.

24:48I mean, we keep talking about Harry Kane, but deservedly so, I think. I'm heading into a workup. What unbelievable form he's in. I've said this already the guy could be winning the Ballon d 'Or amazing yeah I think he's had a great argument for that now his season's been amazing yeah one thing that might stop him though is PSG their game against Liverpool I think Martin was a great example of the other things that PSG do really well everyone talks about their brilliant attacking play their fast flowing football but they defended really well they defended brilliantly Marquinhos he's what a tackle yeah what a player Greg at all right with his celebration for that goal line clearance in a Champions League quarter final second leg

25:26Gregor Robertson: That was basically a goal that one. Yeah, just about meets the defenders criteria. Thank God for that. But 21 shots, Liverpool had 21 shots against PSG. Their most attempts without scoring in a Champions League game for four years. So again, a sign of, you know, PSG can do both, can't they? So as much as we're talking about Bayern and Alise and Kane, they've got to go up against the holders. And what they had, I mean, it's incredible to have spent £400 million virtually on forward players and then go, So, yeah, the problem was they didn't have the sort of firepower, because you'd think 400 million quid, you'd actually get some.

26:02But, you know, Dembele took the game away from them. Dembele had those chances. I mean, that first goal, the way he shifts it onto his left and, you know, McAllister sort of paying to get back in again and seize the space and bang. And that was just very, very classy. Big fan of his celebration as well. It's one of the cooler ones, isn't it? Like, what? Big fan of that I thought that was excellent Go on Greg They're just

26:29Gregor Robertson: I think Increasingly they're the best team Since Pep's Barcelona Really? Yeah I can see that Absolutely Like They're so I can't think of a more athletic team either Like every time you watch them You just see them It's like blooming the Mighty Ducks When they're piling forward There's like five Blue shirts Just running in straight lines Every time they get the ball Forward Forward It must be terrifying To play against And like Pets Barca was like he associated that with like supreme technically gifted players mainly although they were like really athletic and then you got like I don't know Klopp's teams Dortmund and Liverpool they were all about like you know full throttle aggressive they've got like this perfect synthesis of the two I think they're both things we're talking about you saw the way they can defend that's a fundamental part of their game like there's a total commitment and buy-in that every time the ball is turned over the nearest man goes for it and they know that someone is backing them up and that often creates turnovers and if it goes past them they know that someone will be breaking their neck to get back to get it and everyone I remember I remember not in a moment like a moment in the 18th minute when it's it must have already been 3-0 on aggregate and Kvarnitsch-Gellia was straining every sinew to win a ball from Sabozlai like wrestling with them like shoulder to shoulder on the halfway line like they didn't even do it but they'd do it and like so for how gifted they are like forget how gifted they are it's how hard they work as well that's the fundamental like starting place for this team and they're an absolute joy to watch I was part of a closing down session now I mention Ireland a bit too much right and it was Jack Cholton who said to me you close down first if you look around and you're the closest to the man you go don't think of anybody else is it his job or is it their job you go PSG do that they don't look around and say oh Dembele's not in the right place because they know they're the nearest player to the ball they go after you and then the next one will follow and it's literally it makes it nearly impossible to play against them I think they'll win it I think they're by far with Greg and Martin will say I think they've got so much I was live I watched them live against Chelsea at Stamford Bridge, they just ripped Chelsea to pieces.

28:55Second half, they just tore them to pieces. And I come away thinking, what can stop them? Goalkeeper. Their goalkeeper's their weakest put up against Kane and Alise. He did, but generally, I think he's... They will be worried about Bayern, though, in terms of that forward line. They won't be worried. No, they'll take them on. Weird, Tom, we had these conversations before the Liverpool game. I'm saying, if anyone Liverpool fans thinks that they're going to go there and try and play tight football. They'll go after Liverpool.

29:24Gregor Robertson: They'll play the same game everywhere they go. Home and away. Home and away. You think there's going to be goals in this game. Whatever happens. That closing down, it's a Trappertoni idea. Trappertoni had this thing where, you know, if you were the nearest man, you closed down. If the player gets rid of it, like gets rid of it before you're there, you carry on. and you know so the next guy is going to have two people coming towards him because you're going to carry on from the first guy and the other guy was closing him down he's still going to be closing him down and it's this sort of overload this like almost the attack dog thing of you know in the end you've got so many people coming chasing the ball well the thing it only falls down with if your players legs go in a team so if you're an aging team they can't quite get there then you get yeah which they haven't got or the players behind are not following the instruction of the player that's starting the press.

30:23Because the player that runs first is starting the press. And they do it brilliantly well. They've got legs all over the pitch. And just on Martin's point earlier about Marquinhos, Marquinhos was left out about two months ago. If you go through how many games he missed with being on the bench and it was like, wow, he's leaving Marquinhos. Since he's come back in the team, he's added so much to him again. Yeah, real leadership at the back. Favourites for you, Martin and Gregor, PSG? Yes. Yeah. I don't know actually I've got a sneaking feeling for Bayern Munich Right I think it's very interesting though that possibly the two best teams in Europe this season certainly now I'm not saying PSG were in the first half but that happened last year but it's PSG and Bayern Munich this is probably it's not the final but it feels like it would have been a great final neither of them involved in the Super League so that shows you that sort of idea that you know this little this little clothes shop that they want to make the Super League you know these are the greatest teams in Europe no they weren't no they weren't because within however many years it is Munich and PSG see I would look at Arsenal are going to have a battle to win the Premier League I think that's definite Bayern will obviously be comfortable but PSG can play in second gear and win the French League yeah just an open hand

31:43Gregor Robertson: from the Premier League itself well exactly quite yeah with the game being moved the other week but that's the second one I think they are the team that will win it again well plenty more still to discuss but Gregor we just want to talk about Liverpool we talked so much about PSG not a terrible performance from Liverpool in this game in lots of ways against a very good side but the biggest blow being the injury to Hugo Eketike obviously lots been made about all the signings they had in the summer finally get Verts, Izaak and Eketike back on the pitch again after Izaak's injury down goes Hugo Eketike with what we believe is an Achilles tear and that will keep him out for the rest of the season and the World Cup.

32:21Gregor, you've written about suffering this injury yourself and how difficult it is. Tell us a little bit more.

32:27Gregor Robertson: Yeah, I mean, it's like when you see it happening, you know. You knew what changed. You knew instantly, yeah. Because there's kind of some telltale signs. One is, we were talking about this earlier, almost always the player is rocking back on their heels and there's a pass or something that's like an external sort of stimulus that takes them by surprise. So Sabo's life tried to play a pass and it was a bad pass and he was on his heels and he transferred all of his weight immediately like that to try and react and go and get the ball and he crumpled and there was no one around him. And he also, as he fell, he kind of looks, he always looked round.

33:06Gregor Robertson: I opened my pace like that. I turned around to see who The person was that Had two footed me with like a force you could barely Comprehend and then you see no one There and you go oh dear you feel that Sinking feeling so you knew instantly And like This happened to me 15 years ago And you know I was playing for Chesterfield in League 2 I made this point he's playing for Liverpool In the Champions League I sought out the best care I could I went to St George's Park the PFA fund like a kind of rehab camp there. I got the best surgeon I could. I did everything I could and I worked really hard to like spend, I say in the face, you spend hours staring at a wall doing, first of all, trying to mobilize your ankle after three months in this kind of ski boot.

33:56Gregor Robertson: And it's completely, it feels like someone's poured a bag of cement into your ankle. So every day you're just mobilizing it, trying to push your knee over your toe. And then you're doing calf raises is to try and return some form of muscle to your calf, which is just like a bag of skin. So that will all, you can't escape that. But there are also some medical advances. I think even the operation might have changed a little bit in the time. But it's a major thing. It's the biggest, thickest, longest tendon in the human body. And to snap it in two, even if it's not a full rupture, even if it's just a tear, it's a big trauma for a professional footballer.

34:33Gregor Robertson: And it's about the explosive movements and trying to get them back, your Achilles will never be the same. But you can do your best to strengthen everything around it, make sure that it's safe for the load to go through it, and I'm sure he'll return to full health and we'll see him back. Did you know it worked? Did you know the operation worked before they took the boot off? Yeah, I mean, they kind of suture both sides with really strong sutures, and then they draw it together. And they don't actually kind of stitch it up. Everyone thinks he's stitched it up. it's actually sutures go into both sides and then it's drawn together and then held there and in the boot you've got these heel raises a stack of heel raises and every to keep your you know to keep your your achilles short and then every two weeks they remove a heel raise and it gradually lengthens as it's healing and so yeah as long as you don't do anything stupid after those three months you get you know you get it scanned it's healed you say it's healed then you've got to gradually build up the floor how long were you out for in total best part of nine months wow and how was you Gregor did you notice a big difference in your play or your you know exploding from a starting standing position yeah I mean I've said and like thanks you know the headline writers grasped the the part of it where I said I was never the same so I've had quite a lot of Liverpool fans go oh cheers nice one nice to hear that yeah there's context look I'd broken my leg before that too on the same leg and then I did the Achilles so my leg was weak but the best way to describe it is if you stand on your tiptoes I think all of us you could take all of your weight on one leg, on your good leg and if I try and put all the weight onto my left leg which is the leg that was injured my leg just drops about two centimetres so it's never had that same force or tension never quite the same power I'm sure now that he'll be able to get it back to completely the same.

36:36Gregor Robertson: I'm sure that's possible but for me it wasn't and all that meant was I didn't have quite the same explosiveness or like ability to jump off my left foot in the same way. You're just slightly overcompensating stuff after that. I played for five seasons afterwards but I knew deep down that I wasn't as sharp. But he is playing at a super elite lose as well and he's 23. And he's 23 where you can't afford to lose you know so it's a real shame another really challenging moment in Liverpool's season I was going to say they've had no luck Liverpool's season and they've had feels like there's a spell on them they've had true truly tragic events like Diogo Jota Steph but you know just in the general football sense they've had no luck the idea that they signed these three players in the summer and going into that match they'd played 88 minutes together across all competitions and the whole season.

37:34So they finally get him on the field and everyone's thinking, right, well, this would, you know, and 29 minutes in, one of them is gone for good this season certainly, you know, and if it's a rupture, as you say, you're not going to see him until about Christmas at the end, you know, maybe not even Christmas.

37:54Gregor Robertson: Ever actually, Erzie did it in six months. Did he really? Right, okay. Possible to be quick. And as he did it at Palace, and look, he just earned a move. Was that a tear or a rupture? I think it was a rupture. It was a rupture line. Just on the Liverpool's forward line, you go through every one of them and there's been something, you know, whether it's been Salah, Isaac broke his leg, didn't he? In the season, then you've had Eketike, you know. Bad luck all along the way for Liverpool. We wish Hugo Eketike. A speedy recovery. I mean, talking bad luck, Gregor broke his leg, did his Achilles and now he has to sit around a table talking about football with us the guy in a Lincoln shirt that's that so he's right the guy in a bad Lincoln shirt that's the unluckiest thing I wouldn't mind if it was a good Lincoln shirt but it's just a bad Lincoln shirt Martin Samuel not a fan of the 23-24 away Lincoln shirt you can check it out on YouTube at Times Sport it's time for a little break so it's time for a question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz Roberto De Zerbi's first home match in charge of Tottenham is against Brighton a club he previously managed In April 2001, Spurs appointed Glenn Hoddle as manager, despite the fact that they had beaten him 7-2 when he was previously manager of which club?

39:06Find out after the break.

39:20Welcome back to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Tony Cascarino, Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel with me. Martin Samuel, he loves a quiz. Don't care what he says, he pretends otherwise, but he loves a quiz. Straight in with the answer to the quiz question, which was something stupid he's going to say now. When I'm answering quiz questions, I always like to drink Beru Mineral water. And the answer was Southampton. The answer is Southampton. And that, for those of you wondering why on earth he's done that, is to try and wind up our lovely producer, Neil, who likes to try and keep this beautiful studio in the News UK buildings nice and tidy.

39:58Sir Martin Samuel does his best to wind him up. There we go. I've got another cracking question from Bill Edgars, Chris, which I thought you might like. It's relating to a different fixture. So Bobby Charlton's last league game for Manchester United was away to Chelsea in April 1973. Which future England bowler, in cricket in terms, who played in the Home Ashes series in 1985, appeared alongside Charlton for United that day at Stamford Bridge. Any ideas? Willis? Nope. Got four options for you. Paul Allett, Arnie Sidebottom, Eddie Hemmings and Graham Stevenson. This is a very timed sport question I would say.

40:34Can't look at the answer. You're on YouTube now. We can all see you changing. I like his name, Sidebottom. Arnie Sidebottom, Tony Cascarino. Very good indeed. We're speaking about Manchester United there as a way of mentioning their defeat against Leeds. Gregor, I did tee this up on Monday's show with Johnny Northcroft, didn't I, talking about Bruno Fernandes and what the potential United have to finish the season strongly. I think I might have even mentioned we're speaking before Leeds 2, Manchester United 1 at Old Trafford. And so it proved. There was a big moment though in this game. Lissandro Martinez sent off for pulling the hair of Dominic Calvert-Lewin.

41:09This is not the first time this has happened this season, but Michael Carrick very upset about the decision, describing it as one of the worst decisions he's ever seen. what do we make of it Martin I know you've written a column item about it this week as well but just in general like red card yes or no just quickly round the table Tony 1980s player sorry yeah no that's a no for you then yeah of course 1980s 1990s he rearranged his hair that's all he did yeah Gregor yes yes red card because it's the letter of the law or because you think that is actually violent conduct

41:43Gregor Robertson: because it's the letter of the law I think it's I don't think it's something You should do in a football pitch And I think it's abundantly clear That he did it on purpose So you don't think Even in the former defenders union The amount of times You'd have been looking at a ball You can pull his shirt You could have the same effect Pull his shirt And he will stop jumping Or he'll come back You don't have to pull his hair And he grasped for it twice The idea that it was like This little tug That was like He was just in a scramble It's nonsense Carrick is taking us for fools If he actually Is asking us to believe that It was entirely on purpose And he grasped for it twice he could have grabbed his shirt off you go Martin?

42:21Yeah absolutely anything negative that you don't stop you encourage so if you don't stop this then it keeps happening it keeps happening in the end what you end up with is the six yard box from corners now where wouldn't it have been great if the first time anyone had started actually claimed someone two arms round their chest and called that defending if someone went no you can't do that that's a penalty mate you can't hold on to someone like that you know so we found a law that we're all that two of us are actually happy with yeah yeah yeah two of us you'll never get more than you'll never get more than two I was going to say there

42:59Gregor Robertson: it's black and white but it's not it's still slightly subjective I mean you think of Christian Romero's on Cucurea a few years back oh that was that was violent that was violent conduct that was violent conduct he yanked it and that's what as Martin Rotteny's column kind of prompted this sort of rule yeah yeah so or the rule like introduction so this wasn't that but it was a pool and it was intentional and I think Tony's not happy though I just you know what I've said all along that when you start literally taking the game from one level to another level and then you get to a place where it starts to get silly and we've got to that place not just on the hair pulling and I can get it he's pulled his hair to a I just find it hard that sanitising the game is not a good idea I am slightly with Tony and this is the cynic in me watching it Calvert-Lewin hits the deck and then I think he goes he's pulled my hair and then falls to the floor and I'm not you would do it wouldn't you obviously try and gain an advance you saw last night in the sporting game the guy went down with the most infinitesimal little flick with he gave him his ankle and he was going around going for the VAR and someone came over and eventually went they've checked the VAR it's not a penalty and he kind of got up and you know still milked it but that's my point on all this sort of where you end up it's not on the one occasion whether it's right or wrong to me but you end up going to a place five years down the line whether it be 2030 or 2035 what will the game be?

44:24Because there'll be an even worse incident than that. Everyone will be happy and everyone will have ponytails. I'll be saying to the player wear a hairnet. Would you have grown a ponytail? Would you have grown a ponytail? Help you get an advantage? No, I did have sort of long hair and a perm, shaggy perm. I just think I'm very serious. And I can get why the lads are... And there'll be a lot of people that... No. I did hairdressing for 18 months. I used more aggression on a nanny of 65. Okay? Doing a perm. Just taking the rollers out of her hair and doing a shampoo and set. That is true. I've just realised how we could take our YouTube listeners...

45:04YouTube viewers, sorry, through the roof as Tony cuts all of our hair in an end of the season. Yeah, absolutely. Live. I did, honestly. I did shampoos and sets. I know

45:12Gregor Robertson: I'd want them to actually aggression don't worry Tony I know you could lose an ear oh that's a bit sore okay massage honestly the former life of Tony Cascarino before his playing career I just think although I would much more like to explore Tony's hairdressing career but I just think that what you've got and this is why I also am in favour of it is right now everyone knows where they stand if you get hold of someone's hair he gets sent off that's it so you you know there's none of this oh it's a grey hair no it's not it's not a grey hair you've got hold of his hair get off so I like that you know we all want it should be clear and obvious the fans should understand the rules there's this and this well now you do now you do this is the rule now you now you so how do you answer the corner one where everybody's fighting for each other and just well mate you're just basically foul foul foul well Well, we've had that conversation on here before.

46:11One weekend where everyone ends up playing five a side and then it wouldn't happen again. Ten corners each. Coming back to the game, we don't want to ignore the fact that this was a brilliant win for Leeds United, Greg. And what a remarkable job Daniel Farker has done so far this season. You'd imagine this gets them pretty close to survival on 36 points, six points clear of Tottenham in that final relegation place, of course. If he keeps them up, we've talked so much about Sunderland and the brilliant job that Regis Labris has done in their 10th in the table but this is almost as good really for Daniel Farke even if they're further down the table keeping them up after the return to the Premier League

46:48Gregor Robertson: Yeah, coupled with an FA Cup semi-final at the least Absolutely outstanding job and you think of the pressure he went into the seat his job was questioned from the moment he got promoted then it was questioned at the start of the season then it was questioned heavily when like they were looking a bit stodgy until that change of formation I think it was Man City Man City away And they should have got a point in that game I think they can see it forward and scored right at the end And then they went on a run And even although There have been so many draws in recent weeks They've actually only lost Something like 4 of their last 18 games or something It's like really, really, they're hard to beat And in this game They started amazingly They played with so much confidence and purpose And speed And Man United kind of looked shell-shocked So yeah, I actually think you've seen them We've seen them evolve a bit over the course of the season too You know, after the formation change They were playing quite direct They'd cover Lewin and either Okafor or Nemech up top Like big kind of powerful pacey And they were quite direct Now they're starting to knock it around a bit more And, you know, Daniel Farquhar always wanted to play that way I think it was a kind of needs-must and necessity To get them looking more solid at the back from a starting point but I think we'll see them evolve going forward and yeah I think given the home games they have in particular and their run-ins and it was good it was very important that they got it done quick because not only can they then focus on the semi-final but they don't have to worry about when you play Spurs and West Ham in the last three games well they've got Wolves at home this weekend so three points there for Leeds it's not done but not far off there's some other huge games this weekend we've talked already about the game at the top of the table Manchester City hosting Arsenal of course but Spurs at home to Brighton, Roberto Deserby's first home game.

48:38You've got Chelsea against Manchester United, which is the kind of... That is enormous. Which one, sorry? Chelsea. Yeah? For Chelsea. I was going to say, well, the question was going to be as well, you obviously got the Merseyside derby as well on Sunday, Forest at home to Burnley is a massive game for them. After the title game, you'd pick Chelsea United as the next biggest game. I think Chelsea's situation is getting bigger and bigger. It's dire at the minute. And it's only because there's other clubs around them, other elite clubs that are wobbling, like the situation with Arsenal, say, for instance, and Tottenham and falling into the bottom three, that Chelsea's going a little bit under the radar because if you look at it, they're now four points off Liverpool in fifth place.

49:22They are also four points off Fulham in 12th. And if you look at that lump of teams below them, those six teams below them, there's teams playing a lot better than Chelsea. Brighton are playing better than Chelsea. Brentford are playing better than Chelsea. Everton beat, yeah, Bournemouth last week's result at Arsenal. Sunderland have won their last two. Yeah, Sunderland have won their last two. Everton beat Chelsea 3-0. So you're looking at this and whenever, when you're watching it on the box and at the end of the game they'll show the, they'll show the, like, what they consider to be the important part of the league table.

49:58And always stop at Chelsea with the gap to Liverpool. Whereas if you look at Chelsea, see the important parts below them because that's what they've got to avoid being basically being trampled over by these smaller emerging clubs that will have their eye on the Europa League that will have their eye on the Conference League because we can all you know look down our nose at the Conference League but if you're Bournemouth or if you're Sunderland or Brentford or Brighton or Everton any of them any of them to get into that where you've got a genuine chance of winning it because let's be honest Crystal Palace's campaign hasn't been that fabulous but you fancy them you know you fancy them to get to the final and once you got to the final as West Ham discovered you've got a puncher's chance so you know Chelsea I think are it's right on the cusp what would I mean Tony I'll bring it to you as well you've mentioned there when Martin was talking about it being a dire situation they've already changed the manager this season and we talk about it a lot with Liam Rossini not necessarily anyone feeling like he's the kind of permanent long-term solution to what they want to do.

51:05What is the major issue? What's the most worrying thing for Chelsea? The star players want to leave? Yeah, yeah. I was at the game against City and I felt there was a whole, there was a hell of an amount of uncertainty with how they play and they were okay in the first half. But once it went one nil behind, it literally just fell apart. And I'm looking at certain players and I'm, And Kaisido's way off his game. As much as we might lord him, he's so important to Chelsea because he's the ball winner. He's the guy that gets it going. And he's been well off for about, I would say, probably two months.

51:41And with that slide, and we all know he's a real talent, but when ball players don't win the ball enough or make rash challenges, City punished them every time. And I've seen probably the last three home games, Vakant, PSG in there as well, and they're conceding goals at an alarming rate. and pretty you know you feel the anxiety from the terraces because Chelsea fans are looking at their team and thinking this is way short of what we was expecting and then I mean and the manager what we're leading to is it all falling apart in the summer aren't we if it you know if they do get caught by these teams this chasing pack oh if they get caught by the chasing pack and they finish what 7th 8th well they're already putting out you know a senior's job is safe if they don't get Champions League football they've got to say that because they've got a brain strass to five people and this is what they've come up with.

52:31So, you know, if they've come up with the wrong solution, it doesn't really reflect on those guys either. But it's, oh, if they're not in Europe at all next season, you think of Chelsea's finances. You can't keep selling the hotel to yourself. You can't keep selling the women's seam to yourself. That was a one-off solution. Have they got another one-off solution? Well, exactly. Yeah, maybe they'll sell the pitch to themselves or something like that. But, you know, that was a one-off solution. So all of these things are now, it's all now coming home to roost. And the Fernandes call, which a lot of people lorded as its strong manager.

53:14I didn't know. And I just thought, you don't need to do that. As in to ban him. He needs his best players. Even if you're going to ban him, if you're going to leave him out, you don't have to tell the world that's what you're doing. I mean, I mentioned it in the column this week. Wan-Bissaka at West Ham, right? That's when you know you're in trouble, when you're talking about West Ham as a home of smart, you know, true decision-making. But anyway, Wan-Bissaka at West Ham, they expect him back for the Leeds quarterfinal, FA Cup quarterfinal. DR Congo qualify for the World Cup. The Federation say we want everyone back to Kinsasha to celebrate the president has invited everyone back.

54:03Rambisaka gets on the plane. Rambisaka doesn't come back for the Leeds quarterfinal. Right. And at first it's, West Ham are called with that, but it turns out they're not. And certainly Nuno isn't. He didn't play against Wolves. We don't know. You know, no one knows if he... But they just made the call. They just, he didn't play against Wolves. He was on the bench, never came on, not a single minute. Will he play against Crystal Palace on Monday? We don't know. We don't know. What he hasn't done is come out and make a big song and dance about it. He's just done it. Wan-Bissaka will know if he wasn't in the...

54:45Well, maybe he doesn't actually. Maybe he likes to leave them guessing or whatever. but Wan-Bissaka will know that he was in favour because there was no way Walker-Peters was ahead of him for West Ham and now he's not in favour Walker-Peters actually had a good game against Leeds

54:59Gregor Robertson: Let Enzo's agent come out and be the one who leaks that sort of thing because it probably would happen it's a different context but you're right you don't have to you don't have to make a big statement about it Well you're trying to use like you've got a sense of power haven't you? That you've got control over your club and at the end of the day he needed him to me that was the obvious although I did enjoy reading one piece about this whole thing saying that maybe he had his eyes on Atletico or Getafe because the idea that he's going to Real Madrid is ludicrous he ain't good enough so there's a lot of funny business in this within this whole story Martin quite rightly picking out Chelsea against Manchester United is a huge game but obviously it's at home to Brighton as well West Ham got a chance to keep out of the relegation places at Crystal Palace do you see the coach story on Monday yes The coach story is hysterical because, you know, welcome Tottenham to the stadium, which they did before the Nottingham Forest game.

55:56Everyone turned out on the streets, blew smoke everywhere. Anyway, they get stuffed 3-0 by Nottingham Forest. So they're going to do it. They were going to do it again at the weekend. It's gone. No, it's all right. Don't worry about it. We're getting early. We're getting in early. We're not coming in late. We'll be here at 10, you know, whatever. It's very, very funny. Probably a sign of the pressure that Roberto De Zerbing knows he's under already as Tottenham manager. Just one of many massive games at the weekend. We'll be discussing them on Monday's show, but we'll leave it there for now. Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me.

56:29Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.