Ruben Amorim Sacked!

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times first Enzo Maresca And now Ruben Amorim, the Manchester United head coach sacked on Monday morning following critical comments directed at the club's hierarchy after the one-all draw with Leeds. It comes just days after Maresca left Chelsea following a similar and very public breakdown in relations with his club. With Liam Rossinia on his way to Chelsea and United without a manager, what next for both of these big clubs? And indeed, what is the future of the role of manager in modern football? Elsewhere, Thomas Frank is booed again by Tottenham fans.

0:37Liverpool and Manchester City drop points as Arsenal go six clear at the top and West Ham look doomed. Happy New Year, everybody. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the South with a focus on Chelsea. It's Peter Rutzler and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson here. As usual, team, wonderful to get a bit of breaking news just before we record this podcast. That is just when we like it. So let's start with that huge news out of Manchester United. Ruben Amorim sacked as their head coach.

1:08Darren Fletcher will take charge of the next game against Burnley in an interim capacity. The club statement saying, With Manchester United sitting sixth in the Premier League, the club's leadership has reluctantly made the decision that it is the right time to make a change. This will give the team the best opportunity of the highest possible Premier League finish. The club would like to thank Ruben for his contribution to the club and wishes him well with the future. Jokes, get out, we don't like you anymore. or here's millions and millions of pounds. Chaos again. Chaos in the Premier League.

1:37Honestly, there is never a dull moment. Snap reactions to Ruben Amarim. Gone. Gregor, right call? Bonkers? I mean, it's the right call. It's been a disaster from start to finish. Just in the bare numbers, like you see it doing the rounds of stats, a 32 % win record, the fourth worst points haul of all Premier League teams. Only West Ham, Spurs and Wolves have collected fewer points in his time as manager. that's not good enough for Manchester United manager and then like he just never gave anyone the feeling that he deserved time investment and faith and like ultimately that's I think he kind of I think the club realised that eventually I think that's what's been happening in the last few weeks he's obviously had some conversations with Jason Wilcox the sporting director about tactics about Transfers this month Maybe both And possibly how those two things are related And he's not liked what he's heard Clearly the faith has waned And they're not willing to invest As much as he wants To kind of bring his fabled idea to life And that idea has just been like an anvil around his neck From the start It's just been weird Do you think Here we go He snapped in his press conference because whether he planned it or not, it felt emotional.

3:06It still felt emotional. Do you think some of those conversations behind the scenes were about the devotion to three at the back? And that's why we suddenly saw them shifting, albeit quite briefly, to four at the back because he was being made to. And to him, that was completely untenable. Yeah. even before the game he was sort of I think he was asked about the switch to a back four and its relationship to the transfer market and he didn't answer it he shut it down and said I'm not going to talk about that and then clearly he's just that's bubbled over either during the game or come out afterwards and clearly premeditated to come out and go this isn't you know let's just go back to some of those comments after the Leeds game where he's basically asking to be sacked let's be honest which now looks even more obvious but Amarim speaking after the match saying I noticed that you received selective information about everything this is speaking to reporters I came here to be the manager of Manchester United not the coach of Manchester United which begs the question why he signed a contract that said head coach not manager but anyway that is clear I know my name is not Tuchel it's not Conte it's not Mourinho but I am the manager of Manchester United it's going to be like this for 18 months or when the board decides to change that was my point I want to finish with that I'm not going to quit I will do my job until another guy comes here to replace me every department the scouting department when the sports director needs to do their jobs.

4:25I will do mine for 18 months and then we move on. I mean, he was literally asking to be sacked, wasn't he, I think? Yeah, I mean, yeah, he was challenging them, I think. You know, it's a different tone as well to after the Europa League final where he was kind of saying, I'll walk away at some point if I don't think I can do this. And now he's saying, I'm not walking away, basically. Show me the money. This is the end point as well. And then we'll all, you know, go our separate ways. Like, that's not a very positive vibe to strike. but like there's a friction here as well because you know Sir Jim Radcliffe has said from the start that Manchester United and the hierarchy need to have an idea about the way that the team should play and then all the decisions should be made to follow that and stick to it and there clearly has been a friction a friction has developed here and and also just a massive a massive sort of the scale of mismanagement from so Jim Radcliffe and Ineos since they've taken taking control of the football side is staggering really I'm trying to wrap my head around this a little bit just trying to step like take a step back because I think when he was appointed there was always the sense that if you're going to appoint Ruben Amarin he's going to play this way and we've talked about this endlessly he's then presumably expecting that he'd be able to turn his team into that system we've talked about how players can't necessarily fit square pegs around holes is this the point where it's the pennies dropped and he's realised this isn't going to happen like Alison was referring to he's then changed to a four which I think he came out and defended it and said you know I needed a year to otherwise I'd be killed and then I can try and mix things up but it doesn't really ring true if you spend that long being so dogmatic I need a year to play three at the back so I can play four at the back there clever isn't it and then not have the money to therefore invest because your league finish is so terrible that doesn't really add up so is it just this point where the pennies dropped for him and he's gone I'm not going to get the players I'm not going to get the midfielders at the same time as much as I can sympathise with him there why has he taken the job in the first place you could say if you're looking at the squad and doing it mid-season and enduring all of that to then only blow it up at this point but then the other point is you look at what's happened in the summer and they've spent 200 million on free forwards that I think they've helped the team.

6:47Yep. Two of them, definitely. Sesko, jury's still out. When we've all known that it's midfield that's the problem, and midfield is still the problem. And wing-backs as well. Sure, wing-backs. Not really got a wing-back, yeah. You know, I think there's more there that can be manipulated than midfield. You know, when you're playing Bruno Fernandes and Casemiro in there and making it work, it feels so sticking plaster. So, and maybe that's what he's been told, But he says I'm the manager of Manchester United Is he What's he saying here Is he saying he has no influence on that summer agreement Was he not signing off that massive spend If that wasn't a priority I think he's just saying I'm the manager I need to have Some influence in who we're signing because that's how I'll make my idea come to life And ultimately There should be no influence, no external influence On me deciding the system And the team selection and I don't think there has been influence on that I think there's been discussions about that and he's not liked what he's heard essentially he's not got the support anymore to continue to sign players to play in the way he wants to play because as I said at the top he doesn't deserve the faith that he wants But it is fascinating timing Pete's touched on some of it there and bringing in Chelsea slightly as well both clubs are in 5th and 6th in the Premier League at the minute both on 31 points 3 points behind Liverpool in 4th do we think that the January transfer window be opening and also the situation in the league this season where fine you've got three teams at the top of the table who are doing really well but after that it's kind of chaos for the last two Champions League places is that part of this as well because in some respects Ruben Amarim this season has been better than he has previously and recently got some good results you know they're six in the table they've been playing better that's the thing that's the odd slightly fascinating thing about this because of his comments he's ended up getting sacked now but there's been so many times in this season and in his 14 months at the club where we've gone God he can't last much longer than this can he?

8:44And now he's ended up going now with them in a reasonably strong position. Now I think the only period in which I felt that he's earned his crust has been with the departures, the injuries and AFCON departures and the team looking really quite bereft of options. Yeah depleted completely yeah. They've actually been putting in reasonable performances and that has to come down to him He was just winning you over, Alison. To juggle. And this is the hilarious bit. If that juggling involved him playing four at the back against his will, he has therefore been indulged throughout his entire Man United career to a degree I cannot believe has happened.

9:25Completely indulged. Yes, go ahead. You stick everything on three at the back because that's what you've known, even though it's completely inappropriate for the players we have. he's been completely indulged and now he's not being indulged and I wouldn't claim to know to what extent he's not being indulged but for this manager that we've all liked him he's come across really well he's a really affable guy in press conferences and quite funny and seems quite amazing but suddenly you realise the guy's got the most enormous ego if these conversations have made him feel his job is untenable and he's asked to be sacked he's affable but he's also been really damaging there's so many unnecessarily scathing things of his own players and his own club but the worst team in Manchester United history and you're the manager of them he says things that he doesn't need to say and that have not helped and he's been indulged if you read Christian Eriksson's interview by Tom Olnert recently he said no we read that that doesn't help so like yeah he's good for us we had this discussion when we came on you have a press conference and he gives you a news line brilliant he always says something and that's great for us as journalists.

10:38But as a manager of a football club, I think he's been quite destructive. But isn't all that indicative of someone who has been indulged in the way that modern managers are not and are answerable to hierarchy? Indulged how, though? He was higher... Because he was allowed to... There were no repercussions to him saying Man United are in the worst position they've ever been in. What could he say? What would those repercussions be? Well, they could have had a word and said, this is not what we want you to say and ask him to temper his output for me that also brings us back to Manchester United's hierarchy it's an unmitigated disaster like the whole Dan Ashworth debacle who was a man who raised big question marks and red flags about hiring Ruben Amrum incredible the man who's now in conflict with him is Jason Wilcox who has one year of experience as a sporting director with Championship Southampton on his CV.

11:36He's got a good record as an Academy Director at Manchester City but he's a rookie as well in this job and Omar Barada is a businessman more than a football man and then you've got Jim Radcliffe who's saying we often talk about how mate he is with him and they're all telling each other to F off and like, you know, great. Said recently on a Times podcast he gave three years and out of SAC. Yeah, give him the rest of his three years. It's a disaster. That's before you think about the whole, all the optics about SAC Cullen, swathes of the workforce just before you announce a two billion stadium regeneration project.

12:14The club is a disaster zone at the moment. And so Jim Radcliffe has made it worse, not better. Yes, he's kind of put the glazers into, you know, into the shadows, but his management of the club has not been any better. Where do they go now then? Because I've referenced that point in the table. I'm actually looking at the table and going they're actually in a good position here for this season the league's bizarre though I mean they've won one of the last five games and that was a scruffy fairly fortunate win against Newcastle courtesy of a great strike by Dorgoo there have been improvements you know there ought to be after a year and there were moments where you see like okay this could just about work if Fernandes collected midfield with Casemiro that briefly happened although it still is not the future the fact that the forwards gave them players who look suitable playing in those 10s still don't have wing backs like getting Lissandra Martin in his back was fit as good but I come back to I don't think at any point even the good points the high points you looked at looked at Ruben Amarou and thought you deserve the faith that you're looking for and the sort of you know the belief and the investment and the time that it's going to take to make your idea which is not even an idea You know, the funniest and best thing that could happen would be for Oliver Glasner, who currently plays three at the back with Crystal Palace, to go into Old Trafford and say, I've looked at the team, they're better off playing four at the back.

13:45Because that is exactly what Glasner did at Palace. He chose his formation based on the players available. And so, as we know, all clubs and countries always appoint the opposite of what they've just had. so Glasner would be the polar opposite of Ruben Averin but it's an interesting point because if Glasner gave a really good interview to Sky I think I spoke about this before a really good interview to Sky Sports a few weeks ago breaking down his tactics and the thing that came out of it was he said if you look at our games and you press pause you will see 4-4-2 more than you will see 3 at the back so he can sit down and explain to you the pros and cons of his system and why he does it and it's just to get players in certain spaces and areas of the pitch Ruben Amram could have done the same it's more difficult as manager of Manchester United granted but he like it's like politics you've got to control the narrative and he just kept banging on about his idea and never deviating from it and the Pope not going to be able to persuade him to do any different if he just said and I know he did say it the system is not that important but like if he articulated it a bit better that this is just this is just like a structure like out of possession we look different it could have been different but it just it just doubled down on it week after week as the performances and results got worse yeah a fellow journalist tweeting Ruben Amalim leaves Manchester United with a record of 1.24 points per game in the Premier League the same as Alan Pardew Chris Coleman and Bruno Larg that kind of list says it all where do they where do they go from here Alison you're slightly joking about Oliver Glasner and we never like to kind of base our analysis on just the bookmakers list but it's a it's a crackers list I've got to tell you for the next Manchester United manager just reading the top list here Enzo Maresca Enzo Maresca top Darren Fletcher Oliver Glasner Gareth Southgate Xavi Kieran McKenna Michael Carrick Laurent Blanc and then we get into the usual Emery Iraiola Pochettino Marco Silva Oli Gunnar Solskjaer's in there bring back Oli they're all impossible because they can't afford them well Maresca Michael Carrick well no the first few you mentioned but the ones at the end the ones that you go oh okay well bringing in Chelsea then as well as I said mentioned at the start like Maresca for six months I mean why not Well if we're going to Have the conversation About you know Friction with the Higher ups then Yeah but just six months Just six months He's not doing anything else Why not If he was managing A Premier League club Going for Champions League Places come and do it Somewhere else I don't see why not I wouldn't be surprised To see Darren Fletcher For six months For six months You never know Well because then You look at the summer And then you've got Glasner out of contract De Raleau out of contract Marco Silva out of contract Then you have a So you could see them Wait Marco Silva Of contract He spoke to United when they were weighing up.

16:27Thomas Frank might be out of contract soon somewhere as well. Parker Silva can be punchy as well. Yeah. Everyone just wants a yes man nowadays, doesn't they? Well, that brings me perfectly onto my next point. Is that what they're going for? And are there any yes men anymore? Is Liam Rossini the perfect manager for every job? Should he wait? Should he wait out? He's just arriving at Stamford Bridge today. There is a broader point, though, with United and Chelsea, with these decisions, which are clearly related to relationship breakdown, with the hierarchy where we only hear from the manager. And maybe that's just an English football culture thing.

16:59We're just used to hearing from the manager, which dates back to the idea of the manager having influence in all areas. That's not the case now. We get one half of the story. There's always one person that comes up and has to speak. Even for Chelsea, you know, speaking ahead of the Manchester City game, it's Callum McFarlane, the under-21 coach. And yes, he's there to preview the game because he's preparing the team for Manchester City. But they're five sporting directors at Chelsea. One of them could speak just to say, look this is what's happened this is what we want to do this is the direction of the project and maybe they will still do that I don't know but even the same with Manchester United now these are really important figureheads that don't face the same accountability in press conferences in those environments which is the only interaction we seem to get with these kind of one-on-one chance to grill them and I think that's a problem I think supporters don't like that they will want more visible accountability with that but just coming back to your point about Darren Foote give it dazza to the end of the season.

17:54This is a huge opportunity for Manchester United now. I keep banging on about it. You look at that Premier League table and for Chelsea as well, which is why the decision to move on from Maresca and it seems a point Liam Rossinia, these clubs need and expect, these hierarchies that we're talking about are going, we can get top five here. We can get Champions League, Champions League, cash. That is what this is all about, isn't it? Whilst being not potentially very good. So you talk about waiting for the summer and oh, okay, then we have our pick of Iraiola, Glasner, Marco Silva anyone else who's going if they drop down to 7th and 8th then it's not as good no the reason I say there's a good chance Fletcher is that there's not an immediate obvious candidate and that he might have the same effect as Ole Gunnar Solskjaer there's a connection fans will quite like to see someone he understands the club he knows the club, all that nonsense but people at the club know him the players know him no you're right, you're completely right And it's for anyone Doesn't matter who Anyone could walk in Like if you get Solly back again It would be a lift The mood would lift They'd be like I'm sure I'm sure that the The system will be Consigned to the Annals of history Yeah And I wouldn't be surprised To see a bit of an uptick So like In that In that context They might just continue Predicting some DNA chat Both Chelsea And Man United In this instance though The sack The departure of the manager Has come Because of a breakdown down in relationship rather than league position.

19:23I think you could have, if there hadn't been the breakdown, they could have had board meetings where they decided actually keeping Maresca and Ruben in place would probably have got our best chance of making the Champions League. But that's why it's such a huge thing now for both hierarchies. Pete's talked about it, Greg has criticised them. They've got to make a good decision now because if this goes backwards for both teams, there's nowhere for them to hide. They can't blame this on the manager. They've sacked. There should be anywhere for them to hide anyway though, Tom. Because it reflects badly on them in the first place that these two guys are so unhappy.

19:56If you hire them... Well, if they get this right and both finish in the top five, then they'll get away with it. Short-termism, come on. That's what football is these days. Come on. It's not when you're Chelsea. Chelsea don't... They want to finish in the top five, but beyond that, Silverware seems like secondary. I don't think any Chelsea manager can be... Any Chelsea head coach, sorry, can never be content. because of the blueprint, the high volume player trading model. There will always come a point where you think progress is being made and relationships are being formed and chemistry is bubbling away and the environment is just right and then it gets ripped apart.

20:35Well, we should bring in Chelsea with some clarity with the man who covers them further times and Sunday times because that was part of the reason we were planning this show before Ruben Amarim got sacked. We're going to start with Liam Rossini who Pete, as with time we're recording this, about 11am, we believe is on his way to become Chelsea's new manager. Yeah, he flew in to London yesterday from Strasbourg as we reported that he was a clear leading candidate. They wanted to wait for Strasbourg's game against Nice on Saturday evening, which Hamza went to and wrote about. And then just to further conversations today, the issue with the appointment is making sure that Strasbourg have someone in place.

21:15Gary O 'Neill is one of three candidates. Gary O 'Neill's quite a big name relatively for Strasbourg. And the reason they have to get this right, Strasbourg of course are owned by Bluco, the same consortium that owns Chelsea, is that Strasbourg is pretty combustible. Supporters still protest the multi-club ownership structure. Their captain Emmanuel Omega is going to join Chelsea next summer. When he announced that deal in September, led to a huge backlash from supporters. So the idea of losing Liam Rossini, who has really been sort of a figure of consistency for them for 18 months, that's going to be a blow when he's going to Chelsea.

22:00So they've got to get that right. But yeah, Liam Rossini should really be, well, we think he'll be in charge in the coming days. And it's a big decision. I think we could talk about what Liam is like as a coach. He's been really, really impressive in the work that he's done, particularly at Strasbourg. But it's a massive step up. He's got huge challenges. Good at hauling the championship. They were very sad to see him go and good at Strasbourg. But this is Chelsea. Without wanting to go for all the cliches, this is a massive, massive call, isn't it? Yeah, he's not coached in the Champions League before.

22:32He's going to have to go into the dressing room and win over Cole Palmer and Moises Caicedo and get them on side. He's the Blue Co man. He's a company man, technically. That's why he's being hired. Right. So the supporters looking at it can see that. They will feel that he's being appointed because he has a longstanding relationship with Paul Wynne Stanley, the one sporting director. He knew Lawrence Stewart when he was a player at Hull and Lawrence Stewart was a young analyst and they'd spend time together. Sam Jewell from his time at Brighton too, like Wynne Stanley, when he was at the end of his playing career and coaching, which is part of him.

23:09And when I went to meet him and he spoke about how warm the relationship was between them, how he can converse with them and how after leaving Hull when he was sacked, when they finished seventh just outside the playoffs, it felt quite harsh at the time considering some of the way they were playing. And the owner came out and criticised the way they started football, that he wanted to be very considered with his next appointment in relation to who he's working for, which is incredibly interesting to then go into Chelsea after the back of a fallout between Enzo Mareska and the hierarchy. so the hope will be that that already established relationship will help them but he's got those big big challenges Chelsea's a different level in terms of the scrutiny the environment What do you think the reaction of Chelsea fans is?

23:52Again comparing it back to Manchester United I think lots of Manchester United fans will be broadly happy with this decision about Ruben Amrim whilst being dismayed at the running of the club potentially we had Martin who was a Man United fan get in touch with me before the news late last night saying he's got to go, he can't survive this and nor should he. He's been disappointing for so long now. But I mean, Chelsea fans with Maresca, going from Maresca, the guy who won the Club World Cup, delivered the Conference League as expected and Champions League to Liam Rossini. Do we think Chelsea fans will be pretty upset about this?

24:22In terms of Maresca, I think his relationship was very mixed with the supporters. They were chanting his name once he'd had a pop at the board. Yes, but that's... That was a bit of the bigger picture. Right, that says everything in a way. I think there's a real sort of sense of apathy. I mean, there is unhappiness. There's a protest planned for the Brentford game by some supporters. There's concern about the direction of the project. The fact that every time it looks like they might start building, it falls apart, that the last three coaches have left. Obviously, Graham Potter was dismissed. Pochettino, obviously, relationship with hierarchy came into that.

25:03relationship with hierarchy is that a stable environment? Can this project actually work? What a weird whirlpool to be in eh? Don't win the fans over then have a pop at the board, win the fans over but then get sacked because you've had a pop at the board. Who'd be a manager eh? Do you think Chelsea fans should care about how Strasbourg fans are feeling? This is part of a family and if you're, nah but if your owners, if your owners are prepared to treat one of your family clubs like that what does that say about you as a club, what does it say about your ethics, your personality your operational the way you operate, it just seems to me almost callous to treat part of the family like that I don't think Chelsea would even want to associate themselves with Blueco the parent company, so I think it's a moot point, I agree with what you're saying like, I think they don't want to be associated with Bluecore.

26:03People know better than me, but I think there's a good chance that Rossignor will be seen as an emblem of this project. Well, he will have to. And he's going to... I don't think it's going to be playing sailing for him at all. Particularly if he doesn't get off to a good start. But did he have any choice? Do you think, Pete, did he have any choice? For Rossignor... Do you think he had a choice? I mean, he doesn't, does he? I suppose if your employers say you're doing... we want you to do this bigger job for us. Isn't that a weird way to be a manager of a big club because you've got no choice? This is the Chelsea job, right?

26:36For Liam Rossini, we think about where he is. There's no way he'd turn this down. It's an amazing opportunity. You're in four competitions. Tom pointed out, you know, good position in the league table. Some really fantastic players to work with. There's no way he'd turn that down. There's no other route for Rossini to the Chelsea job or to an elite job. There's no other route to the Premier League. Let's be honest. He was with Hull and he didn't make the playoffs. And they sacked him. They sacked him after he didn't make the playoffs. His only chance of making the Premier League was getting promoted and then good luck surviving.

27:09So it's an amazing opportunity. But I'll come back to it. Yes, he's going to be seen as a company man, but you just remember the optics and the noises coming out of Stamford Bridge when Enzo Mariska was appointed. There was a feeling he would just be the coach. he would be a nice mild-mannered yes man oh he's from the championship he'll focus on we'll do all the all the tough stuff you know the sign-ins and he'll he'll he'll mastermind it on the pitch but we saw instantly and Pete was you know Pete was there in America on that tour that he was punchy he said what he thought like it's a massive failure of like due diligence character assessment United have done it he did the same and I'm telling you like yes Rossini will be seen as like the yes man the company man but he's smart and he's really articulate and even if in the early stages of the first season or whatever and if it goes really well for him, he'll have the same conflict as Maresca did.

28:06He'll get to a point where he'll go, hang on I've done a good job here. Not just that I want more influence but I just don't want to be undermined. I don't want you to hinder my chances of making this team a success which is what you're doing. So as much as he might be seen as a yes man and he might go in with a view of like yes I know the big picture I know what it means to be Chelsea head coach in this structure there'll be a competitive instinct within him that'll be difficult down the line even if he is a success Talking about that conflict I just wanted to bring you some more reporting from Matt Lawton and Paul Hurst on the situation at United they're reporting that a heated meeting with Jason Wilcox, United's director of football at the club's training complex last Friday was the tipping point for Amarim Wilcox wanted to provide some feedback after the disappointing draw against Wolves urging the Portuguese coach to put more trust in his players and abandon the back three system being widely blamed for the team's form.

28:57Sources at United suggest Amarim did not respond well to Wilcox's observation. He just blew up, one insider told the Times a meeting took place before Amarim then gave his pre-match press conference hinting at tension between them and the bosses in the January transfer window. With that in mind and the things you've talked about there with Chelsea, one final question on both these jobs. Who's got a tougher job? Whoever gets the Man United job or Liam Rossini? I would say United. personally yeah just because of the tools that I suppose that's a remarkable thing in a way I mean just go back they appointed Amarim and you know what you're getting with Amarim as much as we can say the idea hasn't worked and the system can't work and the functional wrong players whatever they appointed him to do that that was his CV that's what it says and then to then tell him not to do that it ends it ends at that point you can't do that Alisson who's got the tougher job Liam Rossini or whoever gets the Man United job?

29:52In terms of pure coaching, whoever gets the Chelsea job, in terms of handling the club, whoever gets the Man United job. Would we agree with that? No, I'd go the other way around. It's close. I mean, just because, as I said, come back to it, Chelsea have a far better squad, better players, and probably the prospect of more to come. But that in itself creates a problem. Manchester United, you don't even trust them yet to recruit well. So, yeah, good luck to both of them. Absolute chaos. very quickly Pete what do we make of Chelsea picking up a point against Manchester City I thought this was quite a good game good for Callum McFarland record as a manager taking on Pep Guardiola once one point it started quite on the back foot but grew into this game and a good point for them on the road yeah really good point all considered with everything that's happened in quite a short amount of time I think it's shocked a lot of people even when Enzo Mureska came out and made his last 48 hours comment everyone was sort of taking it back including in the dressing room so So, you know, Moresca had some good relationships with that squad, with players within it, but they've clearly got behind McFarlane.

30:55It's great for McFarlane. I mean, he's going to a Windsor Light show, he told us, ahead of the game and with his family when he gets a call from the sporting director and says, can you be in within an hour? And he comes in and says, right, you're taking the team against Pep Guardiola, your first ever game in senior management. Has his pass changed? Yeah, he's a security pass because he's receiving the academy building, so he needed to get into the senior building. and then suddenly he's taking a point from the Etihad. So it's a good story. After making some good subs at half time. Good subs, yeah.

31:23Very good second half. Disappointing for City though. This is drop points you could see on Pep Guardiola's face. He was fuming about this, wasn't he, Greg? He was, yeah. He wasn't particularly happy with the line of questioning afterwards too. He kind of sort of pushed back at the idea that the momentum was shifted by a rookie manager making some positive changes. How dare you? He didn't see it that way. He just thought they had one chance and one goal. I don't think it was quite that. I think the lap changed the dynamic where they started physically up front and the changes that allowed Enzo to move a bit higher up the pitch ultimately led to the goal so yeah, like Arsenal certainly it was a good festive period for Arsenal Absolutely, we'll be talking about Arsenal after the break we should just say as well well done Leeds United continuing their excellent run of form over the Christmas and New Year period but yes, let's take a break and after the break we'll talk about Tottenham Thomas Frank and Arsenal and Liverpool as well but it's time for a little quiz question Declan Rice scored his second brace in all competitions for Arsenal against Bournemouth at the weekend.

32:20Against which club did he score his first?

32:34Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Peter Rutzler and Gregor Robertson straight in with the answer to the very easy quiz question ease you back in the new year. Gregor? Real Madrid. and Bournemouth will be coming on to talk about Declan Rice and Arsenal very shortly. But let's talk about their North London rivals, Tottenham. Gregor, you were there to witness and hear some more boos for Thomas Frank at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium. A 1-0 draw against Sunderland. So much has happened in the managerial sphere that Thomas Frank's been kicked into the second half of the show.

33:05But it's not looking good for him still at Tottenham. I mean, a 1-0 lead, Ben Davis, the scorer. It's not exciting times for Tottenham, is it? and then Sunderland probably deserving their point, would you say, Gregor? Yeah, just about for the second half. What you should say is that Tottenham were good in the first half, actually, just still without showing much chance of scoring from open play. They relied upon a corner again. There were a few efforts from outside the box. Tell had a decent shot. Charleston worked hard, had a couple of volleys that were mishit. That's what you're talking about then.

33:42You know you're scraping the barrel a bit. But there was more purpose. I mean, look, obviously after the Brentford game where there were like chants of boring, boring Tottenham from the away end, you know, that was an improvement. And also you kind of, at the end, you're writing your report with the last 10 minutes and they're 1-0 up and you're thinking, hang on, this is a third clean sheet in a row. Seven points from three games in the space of seven days. Like suddenly it's a spin, a more positive spin on a challenging week and then Brian Broby smashes in a why your copy was so late yeah it was yeah Brian I knew I'd set myself up for that then Brian Broby smashed an equaliser Sunderland had all the momentum nearly you know Trae Hoom had another effort they could have won it so and then that's when there were more boos it just doesn't take much now for boos considering how many you know how bad spurs have been at home in the calendar year and you know it was a bad start Were the crowd quiet throughout or did they get behind the team?

34:44I think they got behind them in the first half and then they... When they needed them, they didn't. Ladies and gentlemen, the Thomas Frank Supporters Association chairwoman chiming in to blame it all on the Tottenham fans instead of the manager who can't seem to get them to score from open play. But when you need your fans... They're not going to make a passing move in and round the box to create a chance for one of the strikers though, are they? Just because they go, come on Tottenham! No, but the last time I was there, the fans were behind the team throughout, and they won. So there you go. Maybe just get rid of managers altogether.

35:20That's what we're learning. Sporting directors and a really raucous crowd. That's all you need. Throw some good players on the pitch, and we'll just see how we get on. Speaking of Tottenham supporters, we had quite a few of them get in touch in the last couple of days. One of my colleagues on the sports desk, who I always like to gauge the level of enthusiasm for the manager, has said, Yes, I probably am, Frank, out. However, I would like to know where they're going afterwards because if they're going for Marco Silva or someone, he can stay a bit longer. Chris Williams, who's a listener, said we'd like to see someone like Roberto De Zerbe at Tottenham.

35:51That'd be a mood swing, wouldn't it, from Thomas Frank. Basically, Ange. Nicola pointing out that Tottenham are currently 13 points above the relegation places, which is roughly exactly where they were at the end of last season. Have they progressed at all? Thibaut, who's a Spurs fan, got in touch, and I thought this was quite interesting, saying, I'm a Tottenham fan, very much not enjoying another slog of the season and multiple times now on your show and lots of others, I've heard the narrative that Top Spurs squad isn't very good and I think that's a bad excuse for why this team is not working.

36:17Like in the rest of the league, Tottenham don't care to develop players or coach players it's quite telling that we've just sold Brennan Johnson our top scorer last season to Crystal Palace have it in the fact that he's barely played this season. The squad is not the problem, it's the mentality that players are assets to be traded from team to team rather than young people who need development and coaching look how it's turning out at Chelsea Gregor, watching that team yesterday, what did you think about that idea that actually there's some good players here that Thomas Frank isn't getting enough out of not sure not sure not sure was it Nicola?

36:46no Tebow Tebow sorry he won't mind as long as you don't be rude that's fine no I mean do you know I was actually thinking the very thing when you know they read out the team and they put the big images of the players they've got like some you know hand to their mouth or whatever some little freeze frame and I was thinking there was very few cheers who are they cheering for Van de Ven Van de Ven's great and he's all action and he's like he's rapid he's a great defender Romero some of them might like him but he's he's a loose cannon beyond that like they think there's promise and willingness in Archie Gray in Bergval although Bergval's throw perhaps summed up Tottenham's season did you see that one he got like slipped out of his hand threw it and he gave the ball away yeah honestly I don't see who like there are real sort of connection with or like much much love for in this team a lot of them are on the sidelines Kuliseski they like Soltan Slanky they quite like Madison like yes and I don't think there should be a conversation about Frank in or out like I don't like that no I don't think it's I don't think it's fair he has why?

37:58they're not doing particularly well they're not necessarily taking them on much from last season other than making them more solid but now they can't score he just got the job like most of his attack are sidelined with injury like I look at another team who have recruited really badly like Odebert, Tell, Kolomani they all look like the same kind of player they just float around and don't really actually impact the game very much they're also players that thrive in transitions particularly like Kolomani when he was at PSG didn't really fit because he's not technically that kind of player of course there are question marks about Frank's approach and like how, you know, conservatives There was that stat about how many progressive passes Tottenham have made in the last few games And one player in the opposition has made more Adam Warton for example In the last six games, five no goals from open play It's not good, it's really clunky But he deserves some time to make it right Also missing Maddison, missing Kulisewski That's those players And then obviously you sign Xavi Simons Okay, yes, that's a lot of money to spend on him he was missing again suspended but also you know to move from Bundesliga to Premier League you see how long it's taking Florian Wirtz to get up to speed there is a degree of and certainly you're saying he's the only sort of one that can do that sort of knit things together I think he's misunderstood Frank I think he wants them to play attractive attacking football but he understands you need a base from which to do that and he understands the limitations of the team per match so is he Eric Ten Hag at Manchester United?

39:32When they beat Brentford 2-0, the crowd were with them and it was reasonably entertaining and relatively free-flowing. There was some creativity on the pitch. And Frank said during training, he saw that they were buying into that creativity. It's what he wants, ultimately. But you know, with the players available at any given point, you can't just throw them on the pitch like Ange did and say, have a good time, lads. You've got to have a structure. Look, I agree. but I think he has to the one thing he has to appreciate is that you can't go into every game and look at the opposition and think how are we going to set up accordingly he's got to have as manager of a club of Tottenham's size more of a what are we going to do you go into the Brentford game and he admitted it, he said we know how good they are at home, we know these are all their strengths and we combated them, but it was dire and the fans were losing the will to live you can't do that as Tottenham manager so I think he's got to like it will help when the players come back and it makes it easier for him to be more like on the front foot but he's got to understand that you've got to have a slightly different approach to the life of the head coach of Tottenham Hospital that's definitely his challenge isn't it I mean we mentioned it but you know three clean sheets in a row I mean compared to last season I mean bloody hell nearly nearly nearly but also the potential is there as well as much as they're 13th in the table 27 points only 4 points behind Chelsea in 5th that is the nature of this crack Crackers season and this Crackers season but it does mean that teams and managers and hierarchies when you've got Tottenham they're going to be going we need to be up there not blooming Brentford who have beaten Everton and Ego Thiago scoring hat-tricks and Keith Andrews is looking like the best appointment of the summer after we all slagged him off Sunderland up there as well Brighton, Fulham doing their usual brilliance in mid-table Tottenham border going to be going we need Champions League again Tommy lad we need Champions League again the Tottenham the new Tottenham border is also the one great unknown we don't well maybe we'll find out in the next couple of weeks what the new Tottenham board they're supposed to have money and it's a question whether they want to spend it with Frank's blessing or not they have to I mean there was a great irony that Mamakudwis went down clutching his thigh after 15 minutes two days after they told Brennan Johnson who's the understudy like there has to be some players in the pipeline ready to come in or else that was a wild decision got to spend Tottenham fans do keep getting in touch with me we do always enjoy you listeners getting in touch over Christmas so thank you very much for that I would just say thank you as well to Richard Fletcher, the business editor of The Times, who, after Gregor hearing my rant about bobble hats, Julie brought me one into the office yesterday.

42:05So thank you very much, Richard. I will not be wearing it at Central Bank this season. Alison, let's talk about Arsenal and the brilliance of Declan Rice. You were there to watch their win against Bournemouth. Looking like champions again? Well, I mean, I keep flip-flopping on this. But when I see them play well and recover, I mean, they went a goal behind to a dreadful gaffe by Gabrielle and you think, wow, you know, Bournemouth have it in them to really make this difficult. But they just aren't wobbling at the moment and they were led by Declan Rice. I mean, he doesn't wear the captain's armband, but I would say if you did a vote, but if people didn't know...

42:49Are you about to take the captain's armband away from Martin Hurley? No, if you didn't know who was captain of Arsenal and did a poll for people, he took the armband off and said to people, who do you think was the captain? They'd say, obviously it's Dirkland-Royce, isn't it? Because that's how he plays. He just dominates to a degree you rarely see, actually, these days, I think. And he's still relatively young, but he's a proper, proper leader. So, yes, he scored his first brace in the Premier League, but it wasn't just the goals it was his all-round demeanour passing energy everything about him was just quite quite superb and he would not let it was as though he made it his personal mission I'm not going to let this early blip affect us in any way at all and if everyone else on the pitch can look to him and see that he believes I mean he's like 100 % And he's drenched in 100 % sweat that says we are going to win the title this time.

43:54It's quite inspirational, I'd have thought. Sounds a bit like an aftershave, Declan Rice. 100 % sweat, 100 % Premier League title winner. It's like an advert. It's like it's not real. He was absolutely phenomenal. And I mean, you know, I know Bournemouth on a run of not being able to get wins and they've lost 16 points from winning positions. So you might say, well, they were easy opposition. that they're not, they're really, whatever game they play in, they are tough opposition because they press you and they work hard and they're fearless. And that's a hard thing to come up against. But it was just like relentless loving with the away fans, him and Rice and the fans, and his impact on the team was just phenomenal.

44:35So, and also afterwards, you know, he had a swollen knee for the Villa game. And, you know, Arteta's saying, oh, he was really upset about that. He wanted to play with a swollen knee and they didn't think he'd be fit for the Bournemouth game. But you got the impression he would, if he chopped his ankles off, he would come in. He would come in and play regardless. It was just that sort of attitude to have that. So if you take Declan Rice's personality out of the Arsenal team, I'd be saying, well, maybe they will have another wobble. But with him there, even if he's injured again for a few games, I think his presence in the squad is really important.

45:18I think he's that important to them. Most fellow journalists I see at Arsenal games, they come out back into the press room afterwards and they're all going, Declan Rice. So we're at Declan Rice now, Gregor. A few days ago we were talking about Arsenal's MVP. How do you pick them? This is the thing. They've got loads of MVPs, clearly. There are a lot of totemic figures. Because I said the same about Gabriel. when you got Gabriel and Saliba playing as that partnership I know he had a howler in this game but it's rare and he made up for it in the other box he's such a threat in the other box as well so and then Odegaard is coming back into his best sort of form Saka they can even afford to like dip him out but he's still like you know when you get into the late stages of the Champions League you could win it for them like he's that good a player there are so many players who are just like so just to be clear we've gone from Manchester City a favourites over Christmas to know Arsenal are going to win the quadruple.

46:12Just check. We're all allowed a flip-flop. It's a flip-flop season. Actually, Pete, you didn't flip-flop to Manchester City, so I can say to you, Pete, still Arsenal favourites for you for the title? Yeah, still favourites. Yeah, well done. There you go. Alison, just very quickly on Bournemouth, any worries at all about Bournemouth and Andoni Iriola? Nine points above West Ham in 15th at the minute, as you say, been on a dreadful run. But is it just a blip and it'll come good? Actually, I think they'll be OK. but weirdly the fact that Semenyo played I think there was this sort of conspiracy theory It's like they're pretending it's not happening La la la Yeah yeah yeah Hello Antoine Yeah off you go But it's a really hard thing to do to play knowing you're probably about to leave and it's not your last game you're probably going to play on Wednesday night as well so you can't make it a big deal and you don't want to get injured if you're going to have a big 65 million quid move He was still okay I think But what it did was, I think it showed that they still played well with him under par, so they'll probably be all right when he's gone.

47:18And their model will still just about see them through. I mean, Junior Kruppi, I haven't double-checked, but I think his goals per minutes must be better than Erling Haaland's now who didn't score. I mean, he's just somebody, they take these young teenagers and say, you'll get Premier League minutes honestly and then they just always shine There's a little unhappiness with their model as well which when they came to Chelsea and was just dissing what some of the supporters were saying was quite similar in terms of the criticisms because they were saying there's too much change As in the player model as in bringing those players like I was saying make them brilliant and then sell them to Man City and everyone else because obviously they're losing Semenyo and I mean it's not just that it's you know it's obviously there's uncertainty about the manager and I think the president of commercial operations came out and said together anything is possible and the responses from the fans were like well it doesn't feel like everything's together because everyone's moving through leaving all the time so slightly premature maybe but there's always when you have that kind of change there's always the risk that it can catch up with you Yeah you can have too much in one go and he's had a lot to take on board in Areola Yeah hopefully and Donnie Iaraola will turn it around for Bournemouth fans but if you do have some views on the status of the club get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk Pete as well as covering the madness at Chelsea you were also at Craven Cottage to watch Fulham 2 Liverpool 2 what a great fun game this was Liverpool thought they'd snatched it at the end only to then retreat right basically onto their goal line and think Harrison Reid's not going to put this in the top corner no chance what a wonderful thing to see there are not enough thunder blasters anymore are there what a wonderful goal what a wonderful strike yeah the kind of goal scored by someone who just doesn't know what to do once they've done it just sort of wheeling away yeah he ran all over the place they're my favourite celebrations aren't they first goal for three years yeah absolutely he's had quite a difficult season Harrison Reid he's not played I think he's started a Premier League game so a huge moment for him in terms of the result about the fair result on the balance of play Liverpool would have kind of considered to have pinched this wouldn't they if they'd got the 2-1 win they had a decent spell after half time they had more chances but it's what's characterised this unbeaten run.

49:37It's nine games unbeaten now, but it's just very stodgy and the way they're playing is very narrow. It's not very exciting. It's certainly not as entertaining as Arna Slott, I think, talked about when he joined the club. And it was interesting that that's what he referred to afterwards, saying, my philosophy hasn't changed. If I could play eight attackers, then I would. Which is weird because he didn't play eight attackers last season. No, it didn't. That worked quite well. Three very solid midfielders, good wing backs, Mo Salah. Clearly he's quite conscious of that. But what he's doing is, you know, it's a 4-2-3-1.

50:10It's very narrow. You had Curtis Jones on the left. You had Sobosla on the right. Yes, there's absences. There's no East SAC. Mohamed Salah's African Cup of Nations. Hugo Ekotika had muscle soreness, so wasn't involved. But it's, you know, they are, it really does feel like they're just papering over cracks. They'll just hold it together like it's fragile. And it's picked up the results, which is great. But it's not thrilling. The first half was not very entertaining. Fulham switched to a back three as well, so there were no wingers on the pitch. So everything was in tight spaces and couldn't get through the middle.

50:51And that's why there's that sort of... I don't know, Alison, you'll watch more Liverpool than I do, but it's recovered from that awful couple of months where they weren't winning a game. Florian Wurtz is now, you know, three goals in four. Florian Wurtz is now scoring but not playing very well. Whereas he was playing well and not scoring. Yeah. Weird. So it's... At what point does Florian Wurtz become a disastrously bad signing or are we just going to wait until he becomes good? Well, I think everyone would be happy if he keeps scoring and not playing pretty football. But there was a period where he was, everyone was saying, all you can see, you can see he's a really class player.

51:25Look at that touch. Look at that layoff. Look at that vision. He's not, there's no assist or goal. and now he's started scoring the rest of his game has been really quite disappointing I mean there's so many bodies around him I mean it's just you know I don't think the game will ever see he's a disastrous sign I think there's a good there's a possibility they'll say he wasn't worth 116 million or whatever it was but that's a way off yet as well like I mean should we also talk about the VAR decision the offside thick lines Gregor thick lines thin lines but there have been but it's not consistent there have been Decisions similar That have not gone the way Of the attacker So I don't understand I don't know whether I even want to bring it in To be honest Gregor There's enough games gone Nonsense with all the Manager stuff If we start talking about VAR Let's just go back to Harrison Reid What a goal What a goal What a wonderful Footballing goal Well Hamza even tried You know I saw Hamza saying Something about You know This is about set plays The fascination with set pieces They flooded the box Because they thought A long throw was going to come in And then he went No no I'm just going to throw Hamza still found a sort of negative about the set-piece revolution in that one-go there's no way it's planned that Harrison would be shooting from the 25-yard that's the 97-minute tactic for Marco Silva right boys what we're going to do is throw it to Harrison he's going to bang it straight in the top corner didn't he say he'd been doing it in training though he said he'd been practicing yeah come on Gregor as a former footballer you always say that don't you bet you said that after you scored direct from a corner didn't you no to the one local reporter hello Gregor do you do that all the time no one would buy that Tom I'm sure they probably would let's just quickly talk about the bottom of the table West Ham United beaten by Wolves a big win for Rob Edwards onto six points now hoping to make sure they don't have that new record for the lowest points tally in the Premier League but this was a disastrous result for Nuno Espirito Santo he's speaking in a press conference this afternoon which Gary Jacob will be reporting on they play Nottingham Forest 18th against 17th tomorrow night Gregor Robertson the man for the big occasion is going to be there you excited for this one Gregor I asked you last time as well about Forrest you said you weren't worried they lost again yeah I'm still not still not really worried about them not really worried listen to that as a change in tone slightly last time it was defiant now he's not really worried but this is a massive massive game for both teams I'm sure it'll be dire nil nil all over it I'm sure it will be awful but it's going to be weighty and yeah it's really really really huge particularly like a lot of people feel that West Ham are dead and buried yeah but well I've got a good friend of mine who's a West Ham season ticket holder and he's like he's been saying for weeks and months we're down we're done we're down regardless of if we sign people but a win against Forest would shift that so it's huge particularly I think for West Ham and like West Ham are trying to make moves in the transfer market already like saying lots of attackers and stuff they need some defenders like we saw it again it was just calamitous stuff although Manny looks thrilling for Wolves like great great to see a youngster like 18 just coming on and playing with such freedom but this game is going to be huge and I mean Martin Samuel wrote this morning about what it would mean for West Ham to go down to the Championship and I think he's right we've said for so long that if you're a relegated team from the Premier League you have to be really stupid to not be in the mix to get promoted straight back these days because of parachute payments and size of West Ham as well but they are being run really stupidly for a long time now and they also have the stadium they don't keep Jared Bowen no way he pointed out who would get taken Jared Bowen I think he included Juif Pakatar Pakatar would be gone wouldn't he yeah but although he said it would be a lot cheaper than it was a couple of years ago which is true and he'd put in Juif probably because he's 21 but he can't defend anyway there are not many players and the point also the point is the atmosphere and imagine Imagine the London Stadium in the Championship Like maybe not entirely full Oh my god it's bad in the Premier League Imagine in the Championship So he's right It's like West Ham are at a big juncture And this month I've said it You don't like to just say they've got to sign players Because it's really basic But West Ham need to sign players And particularly defenders Yeah it's future of the club stuff isn't it Just finally then looking at the bottom of the table We've got Wolves in 20th Burnley in 19th West Ham 18th Nottingham Forest 17th Then Leeds after that brilliant run creating a bit of a gap a four point gap in 16th then Bournemouth and Palace how surprised would we be or how likely do we think it would be that the bottom of the table looks exactly like that at the end of the season where do we think the changes might come or could it look exactly like that I think there's a good chance it'll look like that yeah I mean I'm not rating West Ham off yet because I think all you know everything being all said and done Nuno's a good coach like I think they will strengthen this month I think you'll see some more life at some point the question mark is still who's going to be dragged in I don't know the answer to that because I think Leeds are in a great run but it's possible Leeds return to something more like the form before they change formation and Dominic Calvert-Lewin gets injured and they're like oh that's possible Bournemouth selling the best player we all think they're great Iriola's great you know they shouldn't get dragged in but they can so above that no you've got Bournemouth Leeds in Forest there's no one else no I agree with Gregor I think Daniel Farker done a brilliant job I mean pleased for him at this point as Gregor says it can change but to be in that real crucible moment and then pull something out that changes the direction of the team and yes Calvert-Lewin's been really important but it's been really really well I'd love Wolves to not be the worst team in Premier League history and go on a bit of a run I mean they'll still go down but it'd be nice if they went down with a bit of a bit of swagger yeah because it was we were all very negative about Edwards going in but you know well they've played some alright stuff at times against Arsenal and Manchester United yeah if that could be translated onto the pitch that'd be nice yeah more big games to come in this mid-week round of fixtures and more madness I'm sure you can read about on the Times website but we'll leave it there for now Alison Rudd Peter Rutzler and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening me and Gregor will be back with an EFL extra show and we'll see you with the regular show on Thursday

57:54Thank you.