Salah’s future and brilliant Villa

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times. A last minute equaliser conceded and a shock outburst from a disgruntled star, Liverpool's Premier League title defence continues to spiral into a catastrophe. Is there any way back for Mohamed Salah? And what now for Liverpool and Arna Slott? On today's show, we'll also ask whether Aston Villa's win against Arsenal makes them title contenders, and we'll look at victories for Everton, Tottenham, Fulham and much, much more. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham.

0:39It's Tom Allnut and a former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson. It's here, as usual, team loads to talk about. Let's get stuck straight in. Mohamed Salah. What a story. What a story after an amazing game. I mean, I should just say very quickly, I feel sorry for Leeds, don't you? What an amazing, amazing night at Ellen Road. 3-3, under the light, Saturday evening, late equaliser. I'm just getting the mention in now, Leeds fans, that's probably all you're getting. That's probably all you're getting because then Mohamed Salah comes out into the mix zone afterwards and accuses Liverpool of throwing him under the bus, said his relationship with manager Arne Slott is non-existent, basically said he would say goodbye to Liverpool supporters after the game.

1:19As Paul Joyce wrote in the game and on the Times website today, Alison, basically kind of lobbing a grenade into Liverpool's already disastrous season. What was your reaction on Saturday night when you saw these comments from Mohamed Salah? Well, I agree they're not helpful. but actually if you if you bother to watch him speaking he's very calm and with an underlying tone of emotion yeah and the more the more i've read it through and thought about it everyone's laid into him everyone has laid into him but are we as journalists going to sit here and deny him freedom of expression who are we to say he doesn't feel the things he's saying.

2:02Everyone's assumed it's a calculated attempt to get a move to Saudi Arabia. Maybe he genuinely feels this is awful. It's just, from his point of view, to be stuck on the bench and made the scapegoat, which is how he feels and who are we to deny that that's how he genuinely feels? Why would we... I mean, it seems to me most people are saying, we know you're probably unhappy with the way the title defence is going, Mo, but you're not allowed to say those things. Of course he's allowed to say those things. So that's your considered reaction. and I said, what was your reaction on Saturday night? You threw the remote control across the room, presumably.

2:35Surely. That can't have been your take on Saturday night, surely. Actually, I was fairly calm about it. Really? I really was. Are you surprised? No, because it's been so bad. Are you surprised? Everything has been bad. It's just been awful. From the death of Jota onwards, it has been an awful season to be a Liverpool supporter. And it's, as a title defence, it's crumbling. and you can, it's like with each passing game, you can draw different negative conclusions about what is going wrong. So I will mention Leeds again. Leeds, you know, Liverpool had the game won twice and couldn't win it. It's like any opposition, it doesn't matter if they're a team tipped to be the one that probably will go down.

3:17They can find what it takes to unsettle, unnerve and puncture whatever Liverpool have managed to conjure up. So with each game, there's another reason to be dismayed. It looks like the attack's starting to produce goals. Eketike, we loved him when he started. Again, he's scoring the goals. But it's not enough. It's just not enough. Are you folding that into Salah's? That's a lot of deflection from Salah. No, no. And that's how I feel as a Liverpool fan. So how on earth would you feel as the player who's brought you all the club's recent glory his statistics for last season were the reason for the title win and new contract he's entitled to feel it all of course he's entitled to feel it but he's not entitled to go out and tell everyone the world about it no I would disagree I'd say he is entitled to say he feels that way of course he's entitled to but he's not if he wants to have any consideration for the club that's been his home and he's like he's just said his kids love and everything the club that you love they put him on a throne they put him on a throne when they gave him a new contract.

4:22Yeah, it's extraordinarily... That's not the same as a gagging order, is it? No, but it's... Of course he's entitled to feel all these things. He's a superstar, and it's a massive blow to his ego to be like someone saying, you're not in our starting living now, and this might be the beginning of your decline, managed decline. He doesn't want to accept that, of course. He's entitled to feel all those things, but... But you think he's not entitled to say that? He's entitled to do it, but it's a massive, massive, like, a hand grenade is right. A hand grenade into his own dressing room, into the manager's office, into the boardroom, into Liverpool Football Club, into the middle of Anfield, the place, as Tom just said, he sat in a throne not long ago.

5:09Like, it's extraordinarily self-centred. And, like, we can talk about all the context, and yet, like, as a superstar and as one of the best players on the planet, you've got to have this ego to be that good but it doesn't take away from the fact that you could argue it's a life belt he's thrown Liverpool a life belt because now everyone can focus on him and he can be managed out of the club that is a ridiculous take and they can now reinvent the right side that is an absolutely mad take I do think it could be a good thing for slot you know you think about the position that slot's in I do think it could strengthen his position because I think if they manage it right and I think the right decision now is to move on and to draw a line under it I think they have to get rid of him if they can in January, I think they should.

5:50And if they do that, and Slott, I think, will come out and speak about it today. And if he finds the right words, I think the Liverpool fans will probably side with him. The club will side with him, no doubt about that. And I think sometimes you have these kind of wars between managers and players. And actually, in the end, the manager will be the one who will come out on top always. And I think people will probably actually have a lot of sympathy for Slott in this situation. I mean, there's no way that Salah can come back from this. The idea that he can play again For Liverpool Even next weekend How do they manage that next weekend If he wants to have this big send off Against Brighton He doesn't deserve a send off After saying this No way I'm bringing my family there Well good You can sit beside them That's ridiculous He can't play I in my heart of hearts think Yes this is it It's over There is a way back if You put them to one side Until the AFCON And they have the conversations During that tournament And they say Okay what does everyone want from this?

6:46How do we want this to end? But ultimately, I think if I'm the guy who's making the decision for Liverpool, I'm moving them on now. We should just say we're recording this on Monday morning. Salah has reported for training with the club before they head to Milan to face Inter in the Champions League. That training session is happening around midday and by the time you're listening to this, you'll probably know a lot more about whether he has travelled with the club, whether he's trained with the club. And Arna Slott himself is due to speak this evening around 7pm. so chances are you might know a lot more by the time you're listening to this podcast than we do now currently but I mean Alison both the guys there saying it's done despite your you know different take I should say to Salah's comments is there any way back for him as a Liverpool fan is there any way back for him if you've got this different take on his comments no there's no way back for him unless there's a new manager in the next couple of weeks who decides he can come in and reinvent and extend Mo Salah's career so no under slot no because he's told everyone they have zero relationship.

7:46It's not even that they have a bad relationship, they don't have a relationship. So he's... But I'm not disputing that it is a hand grenade. I'm not disputing that it's unusual. I do feel, though, it's a bit ironic not to actually... It's as though he has no right to speak and I think given everything he's given the club and if he feels genuinely that he is being made a scapegoat. And I think you can construct an argument that he is being made a slight scapegoat here because Slott is looking for solutions and ways forward. And the mood music was, Mo Salah's performances have dropped off more significantly than anyone was expecting.

8:33Why is Slott continuing to deploy him? So he heard that and he's under pressure. so what you do as an under pressure manager in that situation you do what the people want which is rest Mo Salah because you're proving you have the strength and character to do it he's not making decisions because of people saying things about Mo Salah he's watching the games himself also in terms of skate goats I'd say Kanate's taken a far bigger kicking than Mo Salah but as Mo Salah said he's not being dropped is he? yeah but Kanate can't be dropped he would drop Kanate if he could drop him Salah can be dropped and also when everyone says you need to go back it's not what everyone's saying he's listening like a fundamental fact of football is when you're in a bad run you go back to basics that's what everyone says and that means running around and being solid and like showing that you know effort and commitment and tracking back and all these things yeah and these are the things that everyone is like pointing at Hamza's made some interesting points actually like a few tweets and stuff online recently about the fact that he actually his data for pressing and stuff is still there but there's no question that you look at Liverpool's team and like Cucanella came out recently and said we were told to target the right side when we played them this was Maresca's instruction so people are looking at Liverpool's right side and seeing it's a weakness that can't continue it is an extraordinary place to be though isn't it on this podcast last season there was so much discussion around how long do you give Mo Salah a contract Alisson you're like yeah give him three years of course I don't think anyone would have disagreed two year contract for him two year contract for Van Dijk no you would have disagreed I think well I remember we were asking we debated it we were asking the question who would you out of the three would you say let go I think I said Salah there was no right or wrong answer there what I'm saying is that even then you wouldn't have necessarily foreseen A a drop off in standards and contributions to the team in the way he has and then this scenario as we head towards a January window of him being shipped out and not getting any farewell and sod him and no one saw that it's remarkable we all got everything completely wrong about Liverpool didn't we all the big takes on Liverpool and I'm still not entirely convinced that this idea that his legs have gone I haven't said that I watched him come on in the second half against Sunderland and he looked like he'd lost the spring in his step he couldn't go past anyone I saw a stat where his dribble completion is at like 25 % it's the lowest it's ever been in his entire time in the club there are signs that he's starting to go that way and as we've discussed recently it can happen very quickly but I think actually there are other things going on at Liverpool and this is the whole thing with every aspect of Liverpool's sort of issues at the moment it's kind of it's a puzzle you know he's been he's having to play wider this season because if you're trying to accommodate a number 10 and you think of Salah at his best he's running inside a full back he's getting the ball in the corner of the 18 yard box he's getting the ball from a brilliant like through ball from Trent Alexander-Arnold none of those things happen anymore he's been asked to play in a slightly different shape so all of that ties into his decline and Liverpool's difficulties this season so it's not all on Salah but he's not playing well and he's one of many options to try and improve the team's performance.

11:41You say it with that tone of voice. It's not all on Salah implies a lot of it is on Salah and that is why he said what he said because he feels like he is being made to blame. He's more Salah. He's the star player and in one way where you get all the acclaim and you get a throne and you get a new contract when you win a title single-handedly etc. When things are going bad you need your superstar to step up, don't you? When you've been given a new contract. Do you not? so it's not scapegoating it's responsibility I'm not here to speak on his behalf but if he was sat here I think he'd say I am still trying it's just that the team is not set up for the way I can set it up and I'm not getting the information I need from the management it needs to be worth setting up the team around him and he's not anymore but if you think about scenarios in the past like Roy Keane at Manchester United when he came out and did that interview that was the internal TV channel that never went out and Sir Alex Ferguson still ditched him after that and that was Roy Keane at Manchester United arguably as big probably bigger than Salah at Liverpool Salah went out just into the mix zone in front of everyone and just went yeah massive coup for the mix zone culture yeah yeah massive coup you know we think now players are always coming out putting statements on Instagram doing big interviews you know it's a nightmare for me with managing the match list because you lot are all going to be like I need help I need someone to go down to the mix zone you never know you might get a bit of Salah gold we're all going to be waiting for it every time now aren't you if I was a footballer I'd just come out and go like no I'm not going to say anything anyway but I mean what does Arnie Slott do now because we said Tom you said he could kind of come out of this well as I say probably some of you listening to this will have already heard what Arnie Slott's had to say tonight how does Slott manage this does he kind of just dismiss it or does he need to come out this evening and go I've talked to him it's done do they want to knit this in the bud or how do they play this how do they fix it I mean there was a scenario here where Salah could have been managed for this season like a lot of big players have remember like Ryan Giggs for example you know where they sort of are tweaked a little bit they come in off the bench and they sort of become a squad player and they're very important to the dressing room but we were talking about this last week and it was very clear in my mind that Salah was never going to be that player because there are certain you know big big names big egos who will never tolerate that you know and we have lots of examples you know not every brilliant brilliant career ends romantically you know I think this idea that Salah is tarnishing his legacy in 10 years no one's going to no one's going to remember this I mean don't forget Lionel Messi handed in a transfer transfer request to Barcelona by Burefax.

14:05No one's interested in that now. People don't remember these things. Salah's still going to go down as one of the greats of Liverpool, no matter how it ends in the next few weeks. But for Slott now to create a new team, and I agree with Gregor, the point is, of course, there are other players in this team, Cody Gakbo, Kanate, who probably also have been slightly overplayed in terms of their performance. And Salah's probably looking at those and thinking, yeah, sure, why are they not getting dropped like I am? But the point is that Salah absorbs so much of the Liverpool's play that if you want to get the best out of Isak you want to get the best out of Virts and you want to get the best out of Eketike in this new dynamic then he's the one who sucks all the play towards him right so if you want to unleash this team in a kind of new era then Slott has to make this decision you know and I think you know he can say to Salah okay you know if you want to come out and apologise if you want to kind of make it right then we can still make this work for the rest of the season but I don't see that happening I don't see that happening until I think he has to draw a line under it and let this team now have a new lease of life without him.

15:03Slott's great at handling the media. And this is a bigger thing than he's ever had to handle before. But I would expect him to handle it well, however he handles it. And there are several ways he can handle it. He can say, he can't challenge my authority like that. And he can say it in a very measured tone. And everyone will go, yeah, you're right. And say, he's not going to play in Milan. We'll see. We'll have further discussions about the weekend. And then he goes off to AFCON. He could say it like that. or he could just say no he's not going to play until AFCON or he could keep him in he'll say I spoke to him I told him I didn't like what he said but I understand his frustrations and you know he's still part of the squad he could say that there's nothing wrong with him saying that I doubt he'll put him on the pitch and I'm sure he'll still cut a brooding figure on the sidelines he can say all these things he's in control but like my gut is that when it gets to AFCON they'll have conversations and probably they'll be a part of ways so I mean you all think that it's over for Mo Salah at Liverpool now after this.

16:01Is there a world in which that this is a good thing for Liverpool, that he leaves and that Liverpool and Arnislot can start the new Liverpool part two under Arnislot without him that we've talked about with the new players? Is there a world in which that actually this massive news story is actually a good thing for the club going forward? It could be. Pretty possible, yeah. It could be. It could be. It gives... I mean, it's... In a strange way, it's a distraction from the woes, isn't it? it sort of gives a different line of reasoning. But to Tom's point about building a new team, building a new right side, sell him and move on.

16:34If clubs are, as they are, identifying the right side as a weakness and that weakness is partly because Salah's just not functioning as he'd like to in it, then yeah, go for it. But ultimately, if Salah's not playing and as a manager you don't have to worry about whether you bring him off the bench you'll start him if that decision is gone and you've got a clean slate for your right side the pressure is on you then I think Arnaud Slott to make that right side work Yeah Gregor, good thing? It could be he's still a world class player he's just like Liverpool have a struggling team at the moment and if you could have him as Tom said and play him at the right times and try and manage him at the age of 33 and all those things it doesn't seem like that's going to be possible so I think ultimately it's best for both parties that they part ways and then yeah it's like one of Arne Schlott's many headaches gone because he is a headache at the moment he's not he scored five goals and three assists it's not disastrous in 19 games like it's not it's just it's not Mo Salah's numbers it's not such a drop off from last season but he is a headache for him and removing that headache will help him and Liverpool I think Salah deep down will know as well I think you'll know deep down he hasn't been as good as he was last year.

17:58You'll know that he's not delivering for the team. And I think it's just that thing, isn't it? When you get to sort of, what is he, 33, 34, 33? You get to that end of your career and it's that frustration as well in yourself because you realise your legs aren't doing quite what they were doing before. It's that kind of anger. You want to take it out on everyone else, you know? And it's really difficult. You know, you put yourself in the kind of mindset of these players. And I think it is a very specific bracket. you know the real greats of the game in terms of sports guys you know like they have that mindset where they think they are the best all the time every minute and they should be at the center everything you know and that is that is it and it's very hard for them to adjust just like that you know so like with best player in the league last year won Liverpool the title in the space of three or four months we're supposed to you know expect him to suddenly become you know Mr Nice Guy and allow everyone else to kind of have the limelight it just doesn't work like that it's no surprise to me whatsoever that he that he's exploded like this and I think actually you know reading reports today and people writing about it I think even at the club inside Liverpool they were almost expecting something like this to happen Really interesting and as I say a developing story all the time keep up to date with it the latest from Paul Joyce and Hamza Khalid Luna Hamza's going to the Inter Milan game and Paul Joyce reporting from Liverpool's training ground he'll have all the latest on the Times website but listeners do get in touch with me Liverpool fans tom.clark at the times .co.uk let me know your thoughts on Salah and whether there's any future for him at the club I said we'd only mention Leeds let's quickly mention them Gregor because it's a great point for them in a really impressive week with the run of games that they had.

19:24They gave Man City a scare. They beat Chelsea. Now got a point and a comeback at Ellen Road. A few weeks ago, we were saying, it's just looking slightly difficult for them. It still looks very difficult. I'm not saying they're suddenly going to be mid-table, but it's a really positive week for Daniel Farker, isn't it? Yeah, particularly for Daniel Farker, because it was getting to the point where his position was being questioned and a change in formation has catalyzed this uptick. although having said that they changed back to 4-3-3 in the second half but then his subs were all really impactful Tanaka scoring Willianonto getting the penalty Aronson involved in the build up to second as well it's been a great week for Farg and yeah it's like something to build from as well when you look at their team in the sort of 3-5-2 it's good for the full backs I think Goodenison's been quite impressive going forward he's got a lovely left foot Jadon Bogle's really good going forward we know how effective he was in the EFL last season in the championship but whether they're quite as good defensively is a question mark and then they've got three big guys in the centre of defence and some power up front like and Calvert-Lewin like Calvert-Lewin gets going he's a force in the Premier League so yeah really big week for them having said all that like again Kanate my god my god what was he doing you can just have a Kanate my god for the now for the rest of the season if you want I think listeners are well versed with your thoughts on Connate Connate my god it's a terrible terrible time to be a Liverpool fan it's a great time to be an Everton fan you've got to say not just with the woes of their neighbours but they are up to six in the table 3-0 win against Nottingham Forest at the weekend so it's time to play the favourite game that we're having this season in this topsy-turvy season where anyone can beat anyone can Everton make it into the European contention Gregor?

21:14I mean that would be an amazing achievement because their score is so thin I said contention that means they can finish 9th having flirted with 6th I think that's what contention means well how many points is between that come on tell me there's probably not that many so yes we'll be there till the moon in April yeah there's one point between 6th and 9th ever to be in Liverpool so yeah I guess they can but they look they look really good I mean having Ndi and Grealish wide and Dewsbury Hall looks a great signing incredible yeah obviously got 3 goals and 2 assists in the last 5 games some great goals as well the goal against Newcastle was just completely overlooked well but looked because of the score what a touch that was and this was a lovely strike as well so and he's like really important to build that play and then Thierno Barry getting a goal looks so pleased for him it was one of those really nice moments where I think we're all pleased for him aren't we yeah he'd miss some sitters that one up at Sunderland was a joke yeah and then yeah he's had some bad moments so he scored one that was chalked off as well I think for offside like a toenail so yeah you saw everyone and Dai kind of laid it off for him and Dai's been brilliant hasn't he yeah what a terrific sign he's been yeah so like can they be in European contention they're probably like in a group of half a dozen teams that will think they've got a chance basically they could be in the top 8 couldn't they they're not going to get in the top 5 or top 4 but you know I mean I think your definition Tom's a bit I think he's sort of anywhere as a top 12 I think if you finish with 10 at Evan you're sort of getting the European Conference League probably goes down to 14th doesn't it European contention yeah a great start to the season they're a team of cult heroes Everton though aren't they they're just like Grealish is a cult hero.

22:47He was an instant cult hero. And now Barry. I mean, I'm not quite sure why the fans adore him quite so much. But I think sometimes there's a thing, isn't there? There's a connection between the fan base and a player who's just trying his very, very best. The point Gregor said about you go back to your base. If you're trying hard, any fan of any team at any level, if you see one of your players trying really hard, you can't knock him very much for that, at least. And they need a striker. Yeah. So they're like, they really want to do it. They really want him to get scored. He was like, we really want this to work out, Rob.

23:17We've given him the chance, but he has to score goals. So, yeah, we're pleased. Yeah, a big win for Everton on Saturday. Not as big as Aston Villa's win against Arsenal. Aston Villa, what? I mean, nothing sums up this fascinating season that is unfolding before us than Aston Villa. A terrible start to this. I can't believe it. You can't believe it? No, I can't believe it. I was there. My opening game of the season was to go to Villa Park. Yeah. And they unfolded this giant banner that spoke of, this is going to be our year, you know? There is no limit to our ambition was this vague message. Massive, massive banner.

23:53Huge pitch of it, Unai Emery. Don't like banners, do you? Banners. Flags on houses, fine. Big banners in stadiums. Exactly, exactly. My rule book's very specific. We were at the Derby, not on Derby, weren't we? And the Arsenal one was actually, I thought, quite impressive, but you weren't having that at all, were you? there's lots of really good ex-players it was enormous no we discussed she wasn't having it at all no interest anyway but Aston Villa you didn't see this no no no and you thought you thought yeah I thought oh yes yes I thought silly banner but yes silly banner this is a club that feels this is going to be their season and they have we've constantly said what a great manager Emery is and they looked like they were going to be mid-table stodge at very very your best.

24:39In those opening games they couldn't score. They couldn't score for four games but just seeing them in the flesh with all the hype compared to what was actually on the pitch lack of pace, no cutting edge, competent yes but you know in a division where there's just sparkle everywhere and pace everywhere I just thought oh you know that banner's going to be an embarrassing thing to look back on and yet if you have trust, if you have faith in Emery it's all down to him and his coaching and they're so organised and it honestly feels like they squeeze the very best from every single individual in that team and then can go again because a lot of people writing off Oli Watkins he's backing the goals now and then they've got players around them they had the players on loan last season that we said oh well that made them good didn't it they had Rashford and Asensio oh well that's what made them good and now you've got Buendia scoring important goals all the time Morgan Rodgers is now a superstar keeping Jude Bellingham out of the England team.

25:38Camera, him in field. Daniel Moyen looks great all of a sudden, having not got any game time. I mean, Tony Cascarino writing in The Times today saying kind of no egos and no limit for Aston Villa. But Martinez has an ego and he was going to leave and he's come back and he's making the most amazing saves. Having also had a difficult time as well where he looked poor. And it is amazing, Tom, isn't it? And do you agree with Alison? It's all down to Unai. And also, I mean, the banner aside. Don't bring the banner up again. If you remember the start of the season, And actually, Villa were sort of, you know, sulking about the transfer window, weren't they?

26:10There was this whole thing about... Bad transfer window, missed Champions League. We couldn't sign anyone. We missed the Champions League. It was unfair. Like, we can't get into the top bracket because of, you know, all the financial rules are against us. And we did a podcast, I think, you know, a couple of weeks in. And it really felt like the whole club was sort of sinking a bit. You know, there was no enthusiasm. There was nothing fresh about it. And I think it does come from memory. You know, like he has this ability to be analytical and to be forensic, but not to be too heavy. You know, wherever he goes, everyone says his video analysis sessions are just something else.

26:43You know, they last for hours on end. And, you know, there was a Spanish guy who said, you know, you have to bring the popcorn because you're there for two and a half hours, you know. But the players believe in him, you know. It's not just about the kind of the system and the collective. I think what he also does with individuals is he says, this is good for you, you know, because you're going to be a better player if you do this. Yes, it's good for the team, but actually you make this run a little bit more often. You use this part of your foot a little bit more often. You're going to be a better player.

27:07You'll go and play for your country at the World Cup, this kind of thing. He has that ability to motivate. I always think with Emery, why is he not leading? I mean, nothing against Aston Villa, but why is he not leading with the biggest jobs in the world? When we're thinking about the Chelsea job or Liverpool before. Because he had PSG in Arsenal. He had work. But I mean, is it not time for clubs to think, actually, Emery's a fantastic manager? He's in danger of being pigeonholed as someone who can only manage a certain level. Yeah, his communication thing as well is still, I think, with him. Like, you need to be the public face of...

27:36How long ago was that now? I mean, you know, we're still wondering about whether, you know, Unai Emery can speak English properly. He's taking Aston Villa from the bottom of the table to third in the league. That's why Villa was the perfect club for him because they have the ambition to challenge for the very biggest clubs in the country and in Europe. And they have the money behind them to do it if they can, you know, if you take away the spending rules. So, like, yeah, It's also his little tweaks he makes Like he put Telemans at number 10 in this game And He's put McGinn on the right recently And Rodgers on the left But they both drift inside It's almost going back to that He used to play like 4-2-2-2 And like I don't know It just overwhelms the opposition in the middle of the pitch And if they can play those sort of incisive passes That Torres and Concer are capable of And the full backs off of the wood Cash has been brilliant recently as he switched off at the back post and he punished them it's about his tactics as well he finds solutions to problems and he's done it emphatically this year In terms of being in the perfect place then 5 wins on the spin, only 3 points behind Arsenal 15 games played, no distraction in the Champions League can they challenge at the very top in this season where I keep saying it everyone can beat everyone can Villa challenge for the title?

28:52They haven't quite got the depth I don't think I think that's the truth. Not quite the depth. Yeah. I don't know if they have. Yeah. If Watkins really comes back into form and scores the goals, then they can be close. But I don't think so. I don't think they have the same strength. I know they don't have the Champions League, but they have the Europa League. Top four? Yeah, top four. Yeah, definitely. They can get in top four, 100%. Which would have been an amazing achievement, given what we said at the start. Bad summer, no signings, etc. Villa finishing in the top four is an incredible season.

29:20And also, why not win the Europa League as well while you're at it? Indeed. Yeah. I mean, the Europa League, obviously, is a huge thing that they could go for. I mean, you look at the Aston Villa team and you compare it to City or Arsenal, I mean, Liverpool, it's a good team and there are some good players in there, but you don't look at it and go, you know, wow, that's a top four team. Well, that's a team who could win the Premier League. Like, you don't. That is the mark of the coaching because they've got good players who are playing out their skin. How many do you think then in terms of that team, is it just like Morgan Rodgers who would get into a City or an Arsenal or a Liverpool team?

29:51Are there other players that you think looking at that? I think Konza's in that conversation now I think he's really like one of the best central defenders in the country like Tielemans on his day like Tielemans is loved by Aston Villa fans now and after a really difficult start he wasn't getting in the team like he came on a free from Leicester didn't he and it sort of was a pretty underwhelming start for him but now he's like after he came back from injury he's like he's so important for them he's like I saw a stat recently where he's like one of the most press this is a very modern phrase one of the most press resistant players in the league and you see it it's like he can take the ball in tight situations like John McGinn he's the backside I knew that was coming I could say a bum but that's so important in this team too because they they're at their best when they move it really quickly through the thirds and like those players that can do that that can swivel and get a Watkins or a Rodgers or whoever moving forward quickly are really important Arsenal fans need to be worried or just need to get Gabriel and Saliba back on the pitch as soon as possible that would help but I mean it can be that simple analysis or is this a bit oh no Unai's done it again or is it just they need the boys back in defence it'd be big for them I mean they've conceded three goals from crosses they conceded the opener against Sunderland was like a long ball into the box they didn't quite deal with I wouldn't attach that much blame to them for that one then it's conceded from a corner against Chelsea Chalabat in your post again that was quite a good corner routine and then this was like a lapse in focus from across to the back post I don't even know if any of these things as things at centre-halves would deal it's just they were like So what you're saying is no one's like thinking oh Arsenal's coming off the rails they're still the team to beat Arsenal might be thinking that because it's Arsenal and the fans might be and that's the problem that's part of what I mean Going to Villa Villa are a good team Emery's beating us again oh my god You can lose to Villa away it happens you're not going to win every single match the biggest danger that comes out of this result for Arsenal is that they start worrying about being on a wobble you know and they're not like it happens and they should just pick themselves up and go again Yeah they shouldn't because the goal was chaos.

31:53Absolutely. They defended it brilliantly, really. They were throwing their bodies on the line and it just broke there Buendia again. Buendia kept trying to keep it alive and they just found that pocket of space to hook it in. Did you see Henry's celebration up the line? Yeah, he was like, he's heading everything. I think he was shouting, come on, as well in English. He's got it. Communication, there he goes. He's got it, definitely, on the ball. Well, Manchester City lurking just behind Arsenal, proving they're not the Erling Haaland team. After all, eight goals in two games and Haaland's only got one of them, so that might be adding to Arsenal fans' angst as well.

32:23Loads more still to come, but we'll take a quick break. Little quiz question for you. Since Oliver Glasner's first game in charge of Crystal Palace in March 2024, how many clubs have won more points away from home than Palace in the Premier League? Find out after the break.

32:50Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Tom Ornott, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson with me. We're in a bit of a rush. I didn't give you much time to work out the answer to the quiz question, but it's three. Three teams have more Premier League points away from home than Crystal Palace. Since Oliver Gladstone took charge, they got 52 points away from home. Only Arsenal, Liverpool and City have done better. So with that in mind, let's talk about Crystal Palace. They have been for a long time. I think everyone's favourite other team, haven't they? There's lots of contenders in the Premier League, particularly this Premier League Bournemouth are fantastic Villa we've mentioned but Palace there's just a lot to love about Palace isn't there Tom you were there at this game which looked like a lot of fun it was a great game yeah I loved it I've covered a lot of Spurs this season so it was quite nice to go to a ground where there's sort of positivity two teams who are enjoying themselves end to end playing some nice football as well couple of lovely goals team goals for the two first goals well stylistically it was an interesting game because you've got Fulham who like to kind of have the ball and dominate and Palace who are very happy not to have the ball and will always kind of create chances on the break and I was just looking at this game and it's just I know we've said this before but it's such a reminder of you know just how good the Premier League is you know I saw a lot of people kind of saying yesterday it's West Ham Brighton and Palace Fulham you know why have Sky picked these games and fair enough but at the game you're seeing these players like you know Jeremy Pino he's a Spanish international you've got Chuck Weiser who you know on loan from AC Milan Adam Wharton clearly you know just such a brilliant player to watch every time you watch Wharton he's just so silky and smooth and like two brilliant managers you know The two teams were so well organised, well coached.

34:21Just the quality of the game, I thought, was really high. I mean, Wilson's guard. I mean, a lot of people probably won't have seen it because everything else is going on. It's really worth checking out. I know some of my mates saying goal of the season contender this one in terms of the move and the finish. Because as well, it was just really unusual. Like, you know, lovely little sort of one-two around La Cuara was and off Raul Jimenez. And it comes back to him. It's just not quite in the right space for him to kind of drive it straight. So he just kind of uses his left foot to wrap it around the right side of the ball and just kind of sends it drifting to the sort of left corner past Henderson's right hand.

34:51You know, it's just a, it was a reminder to me as well that all Premier League footballers are really good footballers. You know, like even the sort of middling ones, if you played five a side with them, they would score like 15 goals in 20 minutes. You know, like Harry Wilson is a good player and, you know, he's been on loan at Crewe and everything and he came from Liverpool, etc. But you wouldn't say he's one of the best players in the league, right? But he can deliver that kind of moment that is just pure first class. He does it regularly as well. It's a goal against Spurs over the week as well.

35:16brilliantly executed I feel like that little Tom Olnott monologue there could have been that kind of antidote to the Mitchell and Webb football all the time that Sky can just play at some point over this festive period when there is endless football just listen to Tom Olnott talk about how football is class football is mint the other goal as well I mean Palace's goal was great it was terrific Wharton sends it out to the left comes back and just punches it in first time and in Ketio you know probably everyone thinks well you know he's sort of a slightly second rate striker hasn't made it at Arsenal boom you know driven right into the bottom corner brilliant finish it was a great game honestly Palace won it but actually a draw probably would have been a fair result I feel a bit sorry for Fulham but you know it was a great finish from Gay here as well to get the point The way Wharton played out to the left outside of his left foot like it's so so easy and effortless and classy and like and then that one round the corner it's like I honestly I was at the United game last week I honestly feel that Palace tried to set up situations where he's square on and he can play that ball round the corner like I think even in their own half there were times in the first half Like one touch around the corner Yeah Because he's so good at it He just wraps his foot around it He did one in the first half Against United Where he was like I don't know 10 yards outside his own box And he got it from the full back And he played it inside In between The full United's full back And centre half To release Mateta Like I don't think He'd even looked It's just like Some telepathy He has with every other team mate And that one round the corner With his left foot Is just like Such a weapon Yeah So it sounds like You agree with me Then Tom Having seen Fulham live they shouldn't be part of the relegation conversation.

36:48They're such a class above that conversation, I think. And yet they're still hovering. Yeah, they're hovering, but they won't be. I really don't think they won't be. With Smith-Rowe showing potential of finally kind of stepping in? I feel like he's one that they're maybe wanting a bit more from. We signed him from Arsenal, huge potential. Looked good in this game, but maybe wanting a little bit more from him consistently. Yeah, he's lively. I mean, I think you sort of know what Smith-Rowe is going to give you. He's such a classy player on the ball. Maybe it's just more of the off the ball. but I mean even around the full I mean Silva's got Iwobi playing in sort of central midfield at the moment I think he looks brilliant there he's playing right wing his whole career and suddenly he's playing central midfield as a sort of like he brings a bit more thrust in midfield you know next to Sanderberg isn't it you know he can carry it but he can pass it as well he brings a bit of dynamism played well as well really underrated player Alex Iwobi just quickly on Palace the evolution of Palace as well is fascinating you've got you know Pino now number 10 talk so much about Eze leaving you know they lost Elisa a few years ago you've now got Nketiah scoring Mateta they've got Wharton in midfield the way they just kind of quietly evolve the team so then maybe like start the season you go oh they're going to miss these stars and then you kind of get to Christmas and you're like this guy's great this guy's amazing wow have you seen this guy he's brilliant it's fantastic the way they do it and again maybe to pick up an earlier point it's down to Oliver Glasner and his coaching ability right yeah good coaching and they spent 50 million in the summer I mean they lost Eze also I mean don't forget in the last week of August it wasn't sort of the beginning of the summer transfer window you know brilliantly planned They lost him in the last week of August.

38:14They spent£50 million, which was 18th in the league for spending in the summer. Nearly£300 million less than Chelsea, who now Palace are above in the table. Had the whole Gehi saga. Had the whole Gehi thing. I mean, Glasner's obviously, you know, kind of using his authority right now just to kind of like tell the club that they should have done more. And I know there's a sort of angst at Palace at the moment about Glasner going. You know, and I think that's entirely fair enough. You know, what a brilliant job he's done with the FA Cup and where they are now. But I also think you have to look at the model.

38:44It's a cliche, but look at Brighton. Just go and get another one. When you've got a really good squad like this and you've got a good platform and you're playing a really progressive, interesting style of football, that's a much easier sell to really good coaches in Spain or in Germany. Go and get the next one. Bring them in and you keep it moving. Glasner doesn't have to be the be-all and end-all of this team, in my opinion. Yeah, but he has broken the rules of football engagement, which is if you start slugging off purchasing and the board and the decisions made, it's supposed to not go as well as this.

39:14He won the FA Cup, though, and he can do whatever the hell he wants over Glaston, basically, for at least a year, surely. Even allowing for that, yes, I'm saying, yes, you're right, he won the FA Cup, so he's not going to get sacked for it. But the point is, that would indicate to the outside world, ooh, things aren't very happy. Not a happy club. And yet, they play like a cohesive, happy club, which is down to him being able to park his disgruntlement, but not let that seep into the training I wonder if Glasner could could do it in a bigger team I do wonder that like I just think the style of football there's 37 % possession yesterday it's very sort of counter-attacking kind of style you know we talk about Emery being perfect for Villa is he perfect for a sort of everyone just stay where they are and just keep this great crackers season where everyone beats everyone Iriola you stay at Bournemouth no one leave everybody stay exactly where they are that's what we want isn't it that makes it far more interesting yeah he gave a great interview actually to Sky Sports Oliver Glasner last week before the United game and it was like tactical it's quite rare these things our manager sort of sits down and goes through his formation and all this and he was he's actually saying like I bet if you watched our games and you pressed pause you'd see us in 4-4-2 more than any other formation he's like because whenever we don't have the ball he pushes up he moves across that's the way we that's the way we defend or that's the way we press and he was going to so like it's interesting whether whether it's like that's his sort of philosophy his belief his way that you know you're trying to be a little bit more conservative and then punch people on the break or whether with better players and you know greater resources he would evolve like that's the question for all these guys it's the same with Iriola I think it's slightly different with Iriola because he was like a Beelze disciple like he's that's his that's his way but Glasner I would be interested to see how he would evolve with more resources Well speaking of a manager who did incredibly well at a club of a certain size and has moved on and seeing whether he can evolve.

41:10Let's talk about Tottenham and Thomas Frank. Alison, you were there. We sent Tom somewhere else and Tottenham win a game. That must be what it is. Says something, doesn't it? It's incredibly unfair. I have to put up with everything I've had to put up with this year at Tottenham. Alison goes once and gets a 2-0 win. As Thomas Frank was in and training, Alison Ruddy's coming. No, not that walnut bloke. He's got lovely hair but he's not coming. No, Alison Ruddy's coming. We need to win 2-0. Xavi Simmonds, you can push a bit further forward. Everything's going to click. Much needed win, though, for Thomas Frank.

41:39I mean, I dread to think what would have happened had Brentford won that one, from Thomas Frank's point of view. But it was like a blooming Christmas miracle, the whole game. So the background, as we know, was Thomas Frank had said about there being true fans, and true fans don't boo their own players. And there'd been a general disgruntlement about results and style of play. And yet, walked into the stadium, from the first whistle, the fans to a person had decided they were going to be absolutely behind every single player and the team as a whole it was I haven't felt an atmosphere like that since the start of the I don't know realm whatever whatever and I don't know why I come up with that one leave him alone won a trophy leave him alone Anyway, Alison, sorry.

42:37So, and, you know, surprise, surprise, if the players can hear the fans giving them massive encouragement, they will respond. And the player who responded most to that encouragement was Xavi Simons, who, I mean, it was astonishing. They treated him like it was his debut. That's how it felt. It felt like it was his debut. Clean slate, start again. you've had a disappointing start to your Spurs career, hadn't scored a goal, everyone's a bit disappointed you're not Eze. I mean, that was the backdrop to him. And then, but every touch, every movement he made, big roars. At one point, he was getting the crowd, you know, raising his arms, getting the crowd to make more noise, instant relationship.

43:23And he played like a dream. He played like an absolute dream. His cross for Richarlison, for the opening goal, was just, it wasn't just a good cross, it was just perfectly calibrated. It was just so you couldn't miss. You couldn't miss. And then he did this thing where everyone was like, oh my God. So he loses possession, falls over, gets back on his feet, wins possession, runs from inside his own half like an absolute demon. And Brentford just shocked, I think. No one got close to him. And his finish was just inch perfect. I mean, a star is born a bit later in the year than he would have liked.

43:59but that to me was a huge lesson to Spurs fans this is what happens when you don't get all hoity-toity about who your manager is where he's come from it does help though when you're not 2-0 down after six minutes I don't think it's all about the fans and the fans were responding to how poor the team were yes but that's when you're needed that's the whole blooming point of turning up isn't it so if you're 2-0 down you can turn it around but just Tom on some of the things Alison said there you're going after this podcast to listen to Thomas Frank speak again so I'm sure he'll be heartbroken not to see Alisson instead of you and then you're going to the big Champions League game they need to follow this up don't they it's all well and good Alisson saying these things about Saturday's game but Siemens and the team need to follow this up then yeah and maybe Frank needs to stick with it you know I mean with Xavi Siemens I mean you know that the whole thing has been that he's been sort of started out on the left because Frank was sort of saying he wasn't quite ready for the Premier League sort of number 10 defensively maybe ease him in a bit more sort of out wide then he was kind of coming off the bench last three or four games I mean even in that home game against Fulham he didn't start him so maybe you know him playing here was kind of a real sort of signal of intent I think from Frank which is what the Spurs fans have kind of been wanting to see that okay we're at home against a team that we expect to win let's play the the number one creator let's not really worry about his off the ball you know running and whether he defends properly like let's actually go there and try and create chances and score goals and you know they played Archie Gray as well in central midfield it was an attacking lineup 4-2-3-1 keep it simple we think that this team is better than the other team let's go and win the game rather than what we've seen quite a lot I think from Frank and probably too much in the last few weeks which is tweak tweak tweak you know different formation different attacking combination Javi Seaman's on the bench there's a lot of tactical confusion I think he has admitted you know that ultimately the schedule that Spurs have there's no time on the training ground he can't get these messages into the players quickly enough unfortunately which is what he had at Brentford loads and loads of time to kind of design these plans.

45:52I think to some extent he is learning on the job and that's entirely understandable by the way and I think from now on he's got a really good template here, you know, at least at home, again as you say they're playing Slavia Prague tomorrow in the Champions League, another game they should expect to win, play the same team play the same system, get some continuity and get some confidence going. He said to me, Thomas said to me, that he saw this coming in training that he says it's clicking so it's all set up now to be beautiful for the rest of the campaign isn't it? Thanks, Alistair. I appreciate what you've done this weekend.

46:24The service you've given to Tottenham supporters is a truly, truly wonderful thing. But they do have to follow it up and they will be under pressure to do so in that Champions League game. Tom, you'll be following that game. You can read Tom's report on the Times website. Newcastle hoping to follow up their win against Burnley against Bayer Leverkusen in the Champions League. And Chelsea, inconsistency again. A 0-0 draw with Bournemouth, but they're all hoping to bounce back against Atalanta. Let's finish with the other game from Sunday. Gregor, did you get as much buzz and joy from Brighton 1, West Ham 1 as Tom did from Fallon Against Palace?

46:56Definitely not for the first hour for several reasons One, it was pissing with rain but anyone who's been to the Amex as all of us know that you're not covered It rains on your laptop You're not covered in the press box That doesn't feel very Brighton, does it? All the love they get from journalists Massive oversight They all love Brighton What a club Terrible roof They lay out these bin bags over the Bloomin' desk as well as like a token gesture to try and kitchen roll so you can keep your seat dry. Glamour of the job ladies and gentlemen. So anyway that wasn't great and the first hour was awful but they went like Nuno was scowling in the first half, I genuinely think he hates a few of his players honestly.

47:36Name them who, guess. I can't but there's moments where he's turning around and just like muttering or shouting things to his staff and like what is he doing and so I reckon he gave him a rocket at half time and then the second half they came out and they were a lot better a lot more purposeful and snapping into tackles and the goal was great Bowne's goal was like it was an error by Brighton Van Hecker tried to head it back kind of cutely to dunk I think and miscued it and Wilson was in laid it but when he laid it into the box for Bowen it was going wide and it looked over a hit and Caddy Ogle was right beside Bowen it's like he scored from a tackle yeah slight tackle goal but it was totally meant and it was like really sort of instinctive great finish and then it would have been his first clean sheet under Nuno they were holding out holding out and the goal was controversial too for a number of reasons and Nuno was gutted afterwards and I felt a bit sorry for them actually I thought I mean the whole argument by the Premier League I think or PGMOL is that it didn't lead the handball didn't lead directly to the goal but it's like seconds before the keeper saved the first one it was cut back to Rutter and he put it in again like I don't know how you can say that wasn't leading to the goal so a little bit hard done by West Ham but West Ham are improving there's no doubt I was going to say they're in the relegation zone as I say good point for Leeds they're showing some fight do we still think West Ham have got enough to get out of it a few weeks ago we were talking about West Ham and Forrest showing improvements but they've not necessarily pulled away Leeds on 15 points in 16th place Fulham who everyone keeps telling me they're not in a relegation battle guys they're not in a relegation battle Forest beating at the weekend West Ham in 18th then Burnley a couple of points behind in 19th and Wolves obviously play Manchester United tonight West Ham's showing enough or is it these kind of results that they really need to kind of get the three points over the line they're definitely sure enough but whether it's like in across 90 minutes there's another question like I say the first half they were sloppy having said that Brighton plays such a high line that any time Paqueta or Somerville or Bowen or actually Fernandes got on the ball they looked a threat and they probably had the best chances in the first half but they were sloppy they were like just some like not following track and runners or like sloppy passes kicking out of play things like that so as I say I think Nuno is looking at his team and thinking god we need some upgrades we need some serious upgrades and that you know Nuno is the reason why you think there's hope now because they played they had 35 % possession it was almost a kind of perfect Nuno away performance and it just came unstuck Just very quickly on Brighton in seventh Fabian Herzler still amazing took over last summer young manager youngest in the league oh he looks so young you're all going in interviewing oh he's younger than me you're so young he's still there still doing brilliantly in seventh but I think under the radar of it too very under the radar we barely mentioned them he brought up 50 games last month and I don't know if it surprised me but it was probably you guys that he had a better record than De Serby really?

50:41that does surprise me actually I'm surprised everyone loved the Zerbe he played such exciting football he was crackers though he made it into Europe like the fact is because he finished 8th last season and didn't make it to Europe it's like that's still their second best finish in the Premier League era and yeah like I think there's the fans haven't quite taken to him in the same way it's not it's not the same level of excitement and you know they're great at doing the press and I think all the stats back up they're brilliant at kind of winning the ball back high up the pitch there are a lot of games last season you feel they didn't managed to quite go over the line and now they've flipped it on their head and they've won so many points from losing positions this season.

51:18I don't know. There's something, they're not quite taken to him in the same way, but there's no doubt he's done a great job. Yeah, he's doing a brilliant job. They need a cut run, Brian, I think. You know, look at these sort of teams, you know, the sort of, what do we call them? The kind of, you know, the fashion teams, in the middle. The party zone. Let's call it the party zone. the party zone, but they sort of, they need it to go off, you know, and it can't just be a sort of like a cocktail party it has to actually like happen at the end with something a rager a massive rager turn up the music kitchen party at 2am is what you need like this is why like Palace you know they're having a great time because they won a trophy like Brighton it's all very well sort of always finishing between 6th and 10th but ultimately you know you need a bit of adrenaline you know and I think they could really do with going far in one of those trips Europe was that for them you know up to a point you know they're playing Marseille some amazing nights on these trips and stuff but from where they came from too but ultimately Tom's right yeah there comes after so long they want to take at that next step and that is probably a trophy yeah footballs, class and kitchen ragers you've got it all on Monday's episode of the game podcast we'll leave it there Tom Allnut and Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you for joining me Gregor should we do an EFL show this week?

52:20yeah yeah why not we'll be back with an EFL show and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday see you then