Shocks, goals and managers under pressure

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. The holders knocked out by a team 117 places below them in the pyramid. Stacks of goals, extra time and penalties, and even West Ham won. Who says the FA Cup is boring? Plenty of teams enjoyed their weekend, but it's more misery for Thomas Frank as Tottenham are knocked out by Aston Villa. And Old Trafford, Manchester United were beaten by Brighton, with Michael Carrick the favourite to lead them until the end of the season. How do they salvage their shortest campaign for 111 years? I'm Tom Clarke, and joining me today, we have the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham.

0:41It's Tom Allnut. the reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Now team, as we record this on Monday morning, the big news courtesy of Matt Lawton late on Sunday night is that Michael Carrick is the favourite to be Manchester United manager until the end of the season. Maybe by the time you're listening to this he's already been appointed. Maybe the story's changed completely, but we're not going to start with that because when on earth do you get the chance to start a podcast with some glory from a team in the National League North.

1:12Gregor, Macclesfield beating Crystal Palace on Saturday 2-1. I don't think anyone saw this coming. A fully deserved victory. They were excellent, weren't they? Yeah, great scenes as well. Pitch invasion, players held up on shoulders, all that kind of stuff. Player with a bandage on his head scoring the goal and celebrating on the fans' shoulders. Brilliant. Yeah, like Crystal Palace were really poor, but Macclesfield made it really difficult they did everything that you should do in an FA Cup tie like this they made it really difficult for them or physical that kind of you know it's been mentioned before but that that moment right from kickoff where the ball was played into the corner and Dawson just ran sort of to win the header but actually headed the defender like it was yeah well done this is going to be physical here we go boys that's what to do that is the way to do it that's the way to level it the pitch is a leveler too yeah I thought the pitch was interesting some of the Palace fans Palace players looking at it going what the hell is this looked like they were going to fall over all the time.

2:09Yeah, I played at Moss Rose when they were in the Football League and it used to be either like a dusty, like, you know, pothole ridden thing in the summer, a bog in the winter, and that was a leveller. But this is a different type of leveller when it's a plastic pitch. And it definitely was. It doesn't move the same. The balls don't move the same way. Because actually, I think people often think plastic pitchers, the ball moves quicker, but sometimes it moves slow. You know, sometimes when you have a lot of that sort of rubber stuff that gets all over your living room. Yeah. after you've played six aside.

2:38My missus was like, there's rubber stuff all over the house again. Look, New Hoover and it out. I guess New Hoover as well. Anyway, but it slows up the pitch, right? It makes it really thick if you have too much of it. And actually, when you pass a ball across a pitch, it sometimes just holds up, doesn't it? And I think the Prem team sometimes find it really difficult, that. Yeah. Hamza, you were enjoying John Rooney, the manager of Macclesfield's comments after the game about some of his tactics for the players at half-time in this one. Yeah. He was on Five Live. So I just got to Fulham because I was at Craven Cottage for that match at three o 'clock and I was listening in and in his interview, it was a really good interview actually, but one part of it stuck out to me.

3:11He said at half the time, he said, tie your laces, like do everything, walk to free kicks, slow the game down. And if you look at the ball in playtime, it was much lower, but as in, what do you expect? This is what you're meant to do. And I think they managed the game really well in that respect. And I never feel bad if it's a team punching up, doing that sort of thing. It's when you've got a team that's punching down, right? Should Real Madrid be time-wasting? No, of course not. Macclesfield? Yeah, of course. So yeah, I thought they managed that really well. Absolutely. I'm delighted that they passed the Hamza-Cleatland time-waste test as well.

3:42Gregor, for the FA Cup generally though, we're going to talk about lots of games, but this Macclesfield win, loads of goals across the weekend actually, but particularly on Sunday. Newcastle-Bourmouth was a thriller. You've got Robin Roos, Heroics for Sunderland. Wrexham beating Nottingham Forest on Friday night. I mean, this was a good third round for the kind of standing of the FA Cup in modern football, wasn't it? Yeah, definitely. I mean I watched the Wrexham game on Friday and that was a great game to watch like great spectacle great Udson Odoi scored some great goals to get them back into the game and then Wrexham Wrexham just at home an impossible place to go so hard at the moment and there's a great spirit and energy there a lot of cynicism about Wrexham but it's a great place to watch football and there's been some big cup shocks there recently as well so that was fantastic I really enjoyed Manfield Manfield's performance at Sheffield United Some great goals in that game Louis Reid's goals yeah the volleys and like against his former club actually Hamer's goal as well yeah fantastic took the biscuit that was a great game as you say I was at West Ham I think you think oh this could be the most depressing game in the entire third round this weekend and like the first half was but it came to life and they won and like there was a bit of energy in the stadium at the end so that was a big big game a big moment for West Ham as well and then like you see some moments that are like some decisions or incidents that are like touch and go and there's no VAR and like there was no controversy and everyone just goes, you know what, this is great.

5:04Yeah, no fault. Let's get on with it. Just coming back to Macclesfield quickly and that Palace performance as well. They were dreadful, Crystal Palace, weren't they as well? Not taking anything away from Macclesfield. The gap is huge between the two sides. Macclesfield, fantastic, proper fairytale stuff. But Palace were dreadful in this game, weren't they, Tom? And I mean, slightly worrying for Oliver Glasner that he's had this kind of game. He had the Conference League game where he made changes as well and they didn't quite deliver for him. it's a bit of an uncomfortable blip isn't it for Palace at the moment definitely yeah more than uncomfortable blip you know so it's a humiliation isn't it and I think you know the way Glasner was I mean Tony wrote a good piece I thought today about yeah Tony Cascarino's written on the Times website saying he kind of thinks Glasner's seeming a bit arrogant of late yeah I mean I don't know if arrogant is the word I'd use but I think I don't think this future the uncertainty around him is helping you know and maybe it's no coincidence that Bournemouth have also been on a really similarly bad run you know there aren't many clubs that can kind of perform well when their manager particularly when the manager is the main guy at the club, you don't know if he's going to be here in six months.

6:03That's only something that can last, I think, for so long until you need some clarity. I mean, Glasner changed, didn't he, at half-time and went to a back four and that didn't really work, didn't make it better. I mean, they've obviously got injuries at the moment in Palace. They are struggling and we know their squad is really thin. We know Glasner has been given a difficult hand in that regard. But they're not on a good run. And I do worry a little bit about the second half of the season. We were kind of saying, weren't we, early on, maybe Palace could sort of challenge for the European places and maybe Champions League and what a team this is.

6:31But it's just slightly sort of starting to unravel, isn't it, with the options they have and I think the uncertainty around Glasner and just his body language I think doesn't look particularly right at the moment. I sort of worry about what the second half of the season is going to bring for them. Is he in danger of damaging his reputation? Because we're going to come on to talk about Manchester United and lots of other big clubs. He's constantly, he's one of the managers as you referenced there with Iriola as well who we always link with some of the bigger jobs at bigger clubs with respect to Palace and Bournemouth.

6:56If he has a terrible six months or if they have a terrible six months, does that tarnish his reputation after all the brilliant work he did last season? I mean, it shouldn't, but it will because, you know, whenever big clubs are sort of looking for managers, you'd like to think they have these long spreadsheets and big ideas and they look at all that, but actually, you know, a lot of it is about momentum, isn't it? You know, when Glasner just won the FA Cup, you know, his stock was right up here. If they have a difficult second half of the season, he's not going to be anywhere near as fashionable.

7:20I mean, I think always with Glasner, there have been doubts about the style of play. I think as a character and a personality, he's very compelling you know he comes across really well I think he has that kind of self-belief Tony calls it arrogance I think in a way you can say he's got charisma which for a big club is what you need I do think you know you go back even before Palace and look at how they played at Eintracht for example you know where even that season I remember when they won the Europa League there was a sort of idea with Glasner I remember him saying I read it somewhere he said you know why are we losing all these games in the league because they've really tailed off in the Bundesliga and why are we doing so well in Europe and he said well it's because in Bundesliga we're playing against all these weaker opponents we have the ball all the time in the Europa League we don't have the ball at all and we let them have it and that's how we should play now let's let everyone else have the ball and there is a bit of that you know with Palace as well right where he almost prefers the other team to have the ball we're very good at counter-attacking very vertical you know he talks about in the final third I don't really like possession you know I want us to go fast and go quick and I think that's all fine if you're a Palace manager but I wonder if a bigger club you know we've seen with Frank at Spurs for example whether you can get away with that really Yeah well we'll talk about Thomas Frank in the second half of the show Hamza Greger thoughts on Oliver Glasner and some of the points that both Tom and Tony's made on the website as well I think the one thing is you see how he's been quite punchy in terms of the way he's criticised the club and the way they approached the transfer window in the summer and I think actually in the context of some of the discussions we've been having recently that actually might be more of an alarm bell than anything else as in for these big clubs that have sacked Ruben Hammerin Enzo Moresca and people for not towing the line yeah he says what he thinks he came in and he seemed quite mild-mannered and gentlemanly but he's not been recently I've covered a couple of games where he's been very very critical and in one sense he's been right to be we achieved something historic last season won the FA Cup, qualified for Europe that was the time to invest and we chose not to and we saved actually fundamentally despite everything we're saying here that is the biggest reason why Palace are where they are they can't cope with the schedule and the number of games that European football voice upon them and like you know they've got Nketi out Munoz out Kamada out Dukuri like there's there's been a few others throughout the season like their squad can't cope with that so that's the main reason and I think he's kind of getting frustrated by it because he'd made such huge huge strides and advances to take a backward step in that kind of circumstance is frustrating for him Managers that will have a pop at the board, I think, well, I was speaking to a board member the other day from one of the clubs that sat their managers recently, and they said they were absolutely sure that their process was completely right.

10:05Compartmentalizing the role of the manager and empowering other people around the manager, such as medical staff, sporting director, all that sort of stuff. the issue is that idea comes from the US where you have NFL or NBA teams where you've got managing a GM that will manage the whole team and then you have like an offensive coach all this sort of stuff and that all makes sense the issue is that first of all there's an idea of what a manager is and this is what coaches have historically grown up with they see their role as an executive role where in the same way as like in a presidential system where they make the decision.

10:43They're not like a prime ministerial one where they're first on equals. They assess all the information and go, okay, X player is a risk today but I'm the manager. I'm going to decide to play them because I think we need to win. And the reason they think that is because they are always principally the person under pressure. And this is a dynamic that's key. No manager is ever going to cede power away and willingly take all the criticism for it when it's only their head on the chopping block. So for example, let's take Maresca. He was a bit upset about not being able to, in his view, being able to pick who he wanted to.

11:18If he can't pick who he wants to and performances suffer, then he's under pressure. And then you get to that weird situation where he goes, I'm not happy. And then he goes, why are you not happy? And essentially it's because he couldn't choose who he wanted to. And this dynamic isn't going to change unless managers feel that they are supported enough by the club that if, for example, someone at Enzo Moresca says, OK, I'm not going to play Rhys James for two weeks or Cole Palmer for two weeks, the performances are probably going to suffer. But if he feels that the club's going to say, OK, sure, we don't mind, that's OK, and the media and the fans' perspective won't turn, then they can do that.

11:53But until that point, managers are never going to do that because they realise it's only them that they don't feel that, for example, if a player is handled poorly, that the head of performance is going to face real pressure. or the sporting director if they make a few errors that they're going to be in the pressure. It's always them. And because of that, you've got this weird dynamic and I think boards and clubs that are trying to bring in this sort of management style need to realise that they have to manage the coaches. Take Brighton. Brighton have this structure and when De Zerbe was there, often De Zerbe would say, this club has no ambition or something worse to that effect.

12:32We didn't get who we wanted to. and the club were quite clear in sort of managing him and going, he says this stuff, but we can deal with it. Sacking the manager immediately after something like that is not going to entice the best managers over, and over time anyway, a manager, as their prestige grows and their belief in themselves grows, they want to be more of an executive and that speeds up the process. Look at Arteta. The managers might feel that, but I agree with what Hamza is saying, but I also think that more and more we're seeing fans kind of cottoning on. And actually a lot of the opposition you see this season, for example, is, you know, look at Chelsea.

13:10The dissent from the stands is not towards Maresco particularly, or even Rossigno. It's towards, you know, Bowley and Bluco, right? And say Manchester United. You know, the dissent right now is towards the ownership. I think more and more, as fans are realising that the managers and that, well, they're actually head coaches, you know, have less authority, they're taking it out on the ownership. It's the same at West Ham, of course. it's Sullivan who's getting the hits at the moment everything that I've just said is absolutely fine if they know what they're doing but there's been very little evidence these two clubs in particular we're talking about have been successful in what they're doing you can spend a billion quid and sign all the best young players in Europe but that in itself isn't a strategy and also it's not your strategy if your goal is to win titles so that's where the conflict is I don't know how we got into Chelsea there but like no no we were perfectly slalomed into Hamza's mentioned Brighton and Manchester United he was teeing me up perfectly for us to move on to the second part of this first half of the show I should say Johnny wrote a really good piece in Sunday Times about this topic the future of a manager just about how basically will managers ever be the same and I guess the one counterpoint which Johnny does point out in the piece is you look at the three teams right now in the Premier League who are doing well Aston Villa Unai Emery City, Guardiola and Arsenal, Arteta they are the three clubs who have managers who basically run the show as Hamza said the kind of presidential type role but are they allowed to run the show because they've done a good job rather than it's doing well because they're allowed to run the show earn your stripes and you can run the show type thing and it's desirable Emery's a unique one Emery's a unique one because he was brought in and shaped everything around him from the beginning whereas Arteta for example was initially had a lot of execs around him and gradually has basically taken over isn't he really interesting well as I say we've teed it up by talking about managerial power struggles and a mention of Brighton as well so let's move on and talk about that but a final congratulations to Macclesfield.

15:00Let's hope you get a plum tie in the draw which takes place tonight. Make sure you avoid Burton Albion or Grimsby away. Mac fans, fingers crossed. I do with Macclesfield players singing the change room Adele, Someone Like You, which is not really the kind of song I think in a change room when you've got lads, lads, lads, everyone with arms around each other's shoulders. Someone like you. Can't beat a bit of Adele. Greg, do you ever sing Adele in the dressing room? Absolutely not, Tom. Next question. Anyway, as I said, I've teed it up several times. Now let's talk about the situation at Manchester United, beaten in the FA Cup by a brilliant performance from Brighton.

15:33But as I mentioned at the very top of the show, the latest news on the Times website as we record on Monday morning is that Michael Carrick has emerged as the favourite to become Manchester United's interim head coach until the end of the season. The club are due to make an appointment within the next 48 hours. So as I've already said, by the time you're listening to this, this decision could be announced. Ole Gunnar Solskjaer, who previously managed United for three years, has also been very much in the club's thoughts and further talks with both Carrick and the Norwegian took place over the weekend, Matt Lawton writes, but the Times understands that Carrick, who spent 12 years at Old Trafford as a player and did have a brief spell as caretaker manager in 2021, impressed in the discussions.

16:07He's been out of work since June 2025 after being sacked by Middlesbrough. Where should we start? Michael Carrick, we did briefly discuss this, Greg, on the last show. Shows that maybe Jim Ratcliffe and the Inos team do listen to the game podcast, because on Thursday's show, you were all Carrick over Solskjaer. So clearly, clearly they've listened to us. I'd love to think I'd like to think so You never know With these guys Yeah Look I just My starting point With that is that Carrick has a future Solskjaer doesn't Like That just feels like It's a massive Step back Into the past I know they all are All the options On the table are that Essentially But Carrick has a bright future And it could become Something more Potentially I know that would be Still unlikely But He did well at Middlesbrough And I just feel that he's promising he's a promising coach Solskjaer is like there's no other circumstance in the world that he would be Manchester United manager there wasn't the first time it's just ridiculous so yeah with all the options Carrick was a smart choice but what's the aim that's what I wonder is the aim to appoint someone where you're saying let's give him a chance and maybe he gets the job in the summer no or is the idea let's give someone six months with the best chance of us having a bit of an uplift and getting to the top five because I think actually the second one I think Solskjaer maybe is the better bet for the second one because he comes in just vibes based vibes based we're back to vibes based the fans are on it what he did last time let them play attacking football I don't think the team's good enough for vibes to be enough of a boost for them that's the thing because Solskjaer did do vibes last time but he had a really good squad actually when you go back and look at it like they're real like global superstars in that team yeah you need a good coach and Carrick carries himself well he's got a bit of presence he's got the connection as well and actually probably more of the players know Carrick than Solskjaer we spoke about this before Martin Samuel was talking about this how much does really the people of this generation know much about Solskjaer they've seen his goal in the Champions League final but not much else so that can be talked up too much maybe I think Carrick's a coach and he was on Solskjaer's coaching staff he wasn't going to come in together that was obviously discounted quite early on so for me I think go with the coach Yeah, a long period of time as well as Middlesbrough coach I was speaking to Joe Harston who's one of our young reporters who is a Middlesbrough fan and was saying that his time at Middlesbrough he worked well with young players was credited with starting the careers of players like Hayden Hackney and others played quite progressive football in terms of wanting to attack and play out from the back scored a lot of goals in his first season very highly thought of and it just kind of tailed off when they sold a lot of their best players, Middlesbrough some of their forwards as well so perhaps it is then a more positive thing for Manchester United to go down this route.

18:50But as I say, we'll keep you up to date with the latest on the Times website if you've not already found out by the time you're listening to this show. Let's talk about the match in itself. Whoever gets the job, whether it's Michael Carrick, Ole Gunnar Solskjaer or Darren Fletcher, they've got a hell of a task on their hands, haven't they? When you watch this Brighton game back, they were dreadful. Anyone disagree with me on that? Any bright sparks other than that first five minutes when Diego Dallot perhaps should have scored this switch to the back four? I thought Manchester United looked really, really poor and completely tactically clueless a lot of the time.

19:21Yeah.

19:25There's a lot of clamour for the back four, but as we've discussed before, and as you've just touched on, right, more than the manager, the really important thing is the quality of the players available and specifically the midfielders, and they still haven't got that. So you could change system and some things might improve. You can change manager and some things might improve, but fundamentally the best way to improve your performances on the pitch is to get the best players on the pitch. so I think that more than anything more important than a manager honestly is getting a really really good centre midfielder maybe one or two maybe two but getting in a top midfielder would help solve a lot of their issues in terms of the way that they're played through the way that they can control games the way that they can impose themselves on opposition teams and then support the players around them because you've got lots of good players ahead of the midfield who aren't just getting on the ball enough so resolve that and I think that will be a big step in the right direction irrespective of the manager On that subject of midfield obviously a lot of clamour amongst United fans for Kobi Mainu to play he started this game, tried quite hard but again didn't look, you know, obviously not match fit as well In terms of a midfield placing is he better in a three?

20:34Do they have to play a three-man midfield for Kobi Mainu to thrive? Kobi in a two is a lot to ask of a player that isn't able to cover space as well as you'd like for a player in a double pivot. Especially with the other partner that he has, if it's Agathe or Casemiro, that's not really a dynamic that you want. Or Fernandes, the way that he was used by Amarim was that he would get a license to attack. The interesting thing was that their attacking numbers this season were pretty good. I think last time I checked, they had the third most goals, third most XG, most shots in the league. From a team that was quite bad when Amarim took over, he left them with one that could actually attack.

21:14Not great, but as in they went from a genuinely bad team to an alright team and one that's quite good at scoring goals. And they're missing Ahmad and Brian Boomer, who've been two of their best and most consistent players this season. In terms of this game, are there bright spots? We were talking about the show before we started recording. Benjamin Sesko looking a little bit brighter in the last couple of games. Is that due to the tactics, Gregor, playing a bit more to his strengths, trying to get crosses and balls into the box? Yeah, we spoke about that before. The same in the Burnley game. you just saw like sequences of play that you haven't really seen in Amarim's system a winger getting to well not to the byline but getting down the flank and playing across and he was a sort of first time instinctive finish and this was a good header he's really good in the air too like I think getting crosses in the box is a good idea if it's going to your team so yeah he's like it's a bit of a bright bit of a bright spark but there are not many One player I wanted to ask a question about was Matthias Cunha because I think in this game and the last couple of games that I've seen for Manchester United he looked increasingly lost in my opinion I mean, he was signed to much fanfare alongside Brian Boumo they've gone in different directions in my opinion in this Manchester United team Boumo very much looking like a superstar player one that can take a team like Manchester United forward I'm looking at Cunha and wondering maybe he is a bottom half of the Premier League level player who sometimes produces some brilliance a great free kick or a great goal what do we think about that idea?

22:37That's a little bit harsh I think Harsh? what he is though is a player that requires a lot of a lot of the ball and a lot of possession and to use up a lot of possession we discussed this before but as in when you have Bruno in your team he uses up a lot of the ball when you've got Mbama who takes shots and Cesc would take shots they also use up lots of the ball which means that there's not much left for other players and Cunha as he demonstrated at Wolves where he took a large proportion of their shots especially last season he needs the ball to go through him a lot so try the difficulty that United have at the moment is trying to get a balance with, when Burma's back, him, Sesco, Ancunia, and Fernandes in the team.

23:17And that, I don't think you can get that. And that's something the club have looked at. And to be honest, I think their plan this summer, last summer, sorry, was to sign these guys, sell Fernandes for a big fee, and then use that to reinvest into midfield. And then you go, actually, the plan sort of made sense. but because Fernandes didn't want to go which we found out a few weeks ago that sort of meant that they had to reschedule their plans and then move for a midfielder in the coming summer so that's why they look a little bit worse but I think the plan generally was actually okay I think the way that the scouting team and data team which is nascent at United but quite good work is pretty good I think they should stop listening to people on podcasts at the top level if they are They should let those guys get to work I'm not sure about the manager Anyone worried about Mateus Cunha at Manchester United?

24:12He was really good at Villa When I was at that game just before Christmas You've seen flashes of him I think essentially I don't think he's a bottom half Premier League player I think he's a player Who can take Manchester United Help take Manchester United Back in the Champions League places I don't think he's a player that they'll win the league with Do you think he needs to be the main man though? in a team I don't know it's easy to say that after he certainly was at Wolves and also he was bought with the intention of playing alongside Mbouma as one of the two 10s and that kind of they are the players that a lot of their attacking play would have gone through and that's out the window now and so you know he's not actually got a natural fit in this team that's another another reason for this you know I draw the parallel with Greenwich when Greenwich was at Villa again another player that I say he used up loads of possessions but essentially is the main man yeah we know what you mean you play through yeah yeah yeah and then when you put him into a team where other players want the play to go through them and the manager does as well then they suffer so I think he may be one of those players that needs a lot of play to go through him and the game to be centred around him whether you want to do that with him when you've got Mbema and your team and Cescou I don't know but it's a question They've got 17 games left United I mean for Arsenal that's like two months Yeah They're nearly finished As I mentioned yeah for the first time since 1914-15 season they're only going to play 40 games in a season players will be fresh for the World Cup which is great I guess how many of them are going that's the question but I mean it is remarkable isn't it we're talking about an interim job for Carrick 17 games to get in the Champions League basically that's what it is I mean are they good enough to get in the Champions League regardless of what I think about Mateus Cunha and this squad when they get Ahmad back when they get Brian Bumo back whether it's Michael Carrick or someone else is this Manchester United squad good enough to get in the Champions League they're good enough to get fifth I think this season I don't see them they're not better than the top three clearly and I don't think they're better than Liverpool but that fifth spot I think is still up for grabs you know the way Chelsea are with Rossini who knows big question mark I think that's up for grabs for anyone who can suddenly put together a decent second half of the season yeah I'll go with that I agree I don't think I'd be amazed if they got in fourth definitely not in top three so yeah I think fifth is up for grabs what do you say start the season 7th, 8th best squad yeah it's possible that they could get to fifth they could do it with Solskjaer not Carrick Manchester United fans you always do get in touch with me but please do as well at tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk give me your thoughts on whether it's Michael Carrick or someone else and your thoughts on Mateus Cunha as well it's time for the favourite catchphrase of any presenter of any kind of football show on TV, radio or anywhere Brighton were very good weren't they?

26:52Brighton and they were very good Fabian Hurtzler quietly doing a very good job so much fanfare when he came in no? not doing a good job but it's a funny one again I covered them a few weeks back and he'd just hit the half century of games and he'd won more points than De Zerbe and that was like oh wow so quietly doing a very good job then you're saying yeah but the fans aren't no that's something I was just going to say the fans aren't really they love De Zerbe they don't love him I don't know what that what that dynamic is I'm not entirely sure why I think maybe De Zerbe's football was thrilling like Hurt Sellers is less so it's really dynamic and stuff it's pretty good like I was really enjoyed watching them.

27:32Yeah, but I think they're also another team that are kind of at their most dangerous when the other team's got the ball. De Zerbe were glad to do things and you go, wow. I know. It depends on you. You can only be a possession-dominant team if you've got really good players. I know your criticism of Glasner earlier. I largely agree with it. The question is what can you do when you have the ball? But if you haven't got players that are really good with the ball, you have to be really good without it. I mean, it's less criticism of Glasner. It's more, can that work in a big club? I think it's great to watch.

28:01football, you know, when it's good, it's absolutely brilliant to watch, you know, but it's whether that kind of football, I mean, Conte's football definitely works for the big clubs, whether it can work in the big ones, you know. But I mean, it's still always when you watch them, every time there's a player, to me as well, that you go, oh my god, who's this guy? Yesterday it was Brian Gruda, only 21, signed from Mainz in the summer of 2024 for 25 million, absolutely ran midfield. Hamza, you were talking about Manchester United needing midfielders, I thought he was brilliant in just, you know, ahead of that midfield, but attacking brilliantly.

28:29Gregor Armait, Caddy Oglu at left back starting to come good really is yeah yeah he had a bit of a stop start time with injury and everyone loved him at the Euros yeah with Turkey he's really coming to his own recently and like he's a great threat in attack and then yeah I agree with you I mean both are certain halves Bosca Gali and Coppola I'm not entirely sure where they came from this is my job That genuinely might be their first And only mentions on the podcast this season But they were brilliant Yeah And then they got Pascal Gross back He was running midfield at 34 Yeah, great player I always like a Yari as well Midfield actually I mean he didn't start this one Whenever I watched Brian I did them two or three weeks ago And he's just nice He's nice He's nice He's nice to watch Brian had a period where Obviously their profits were enormous After Kai Seyel and one or two others and I think they took the view that because of profit and sustainability regulations where it's a three year rolling cycle we've got to spend this money now and they really spent it so this is why they invested a lot of money in the last two or three transfer windows and a lot of them are for the future it's always been the two players they signed are the young Greece internationals as well one got injured but the other really flickered from us as well this is why they might have signed them two transfer windows ago but they put them in and they go oh god yeah they've got him there's another midfielder that often gets Kurt around 20 years old Jack Inchilwood and he's always really good I think people don't realise just how young he is but as in at the FA they love him for the 21s he was such a valued player John McDermott spoke really really highly about him and his character and I think he's not that far away from the senior team as well I know a lot of people just think about the more eye-catching players with Brighton I've been guilty of it I love watching Minter for example but Hinchwood always puts in a pretty good level and then in some matches as well he raises it and as a 20 year old he's feisty as well isn't he he really gets stuck in as a 20 year old to do that and for that age and even actually younger when he got on the team to be played left back or right back when you're actually a midfielder and then have to invert but still do the defensive work there's a real trust to do that with a player that age I'll throw another one Diego Gomez I mean he burst Doing the whole squad here No no No but he He scored Those absolute stunners Against Barnsley In the cup And it was like And then he got a place In the team And he's He's shown real promise too So yeah they've got It all comes back To the same conversation too This is like A structure It's just That just The wheels keep turning The head coach is one part of it And Like The fans might not Have really taken to him The same way But he has done a very good job Yeah And leading the line 35 year old captain leader legend Danny Welbeck gotta be one of the most liked people in football history ever isn't he can anyone think of anyone that like literally I can't think of anyone who doesn't like Danny Welbeck in fact if I met someone I'd be like you're weird I'm never speaking to you ever again like John McGinn Saka like in terms of like universal but universally liked footballers James Milner by basically everyone yeah maybe James Milner but his Manchester United fans don't like he's played for everyone that they hate I think but his is like His is like a longevity thing.

31:53I think with Welbeck, you genuinely watch him and when he scores, you're like, ah, that guy. Buzz in for that guy. 11 years since he left United, and they're still applauding him off the pitch. That's extraordinary. That doesn't happen very often. No, absolutely chuffed for Danny Welbeck as well. And just before we wrap up part one, kudos to the football finance expert, Kieran Maguire, for this tweet when he said, first Grimsby Town, then Brighton knocked Manchester United out of the domestic cups. Canton, I was right. The Seagulls do indeed follow the trawlers, which is definitely worth reading out on a podcast.

32:21absolutely fantastic stuff with some big wins this weekend as I mentioned Liam Rossini getting off to a winning start with a 5-1 victory at Charlton Arsenal continuing their impressive season with a 4-1 win at Portsmouth and Manchester City 10-1 against Exeter on Saturday and that is the quiz question to take us into the break how many times has Pep Guardiola's side at City scored five goals or more in a game find out after the break

32:57Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Hamza Khalid Luna, Tom Olnutt and Gregor Robertson with me and they were all stumped by the quiz question at the break. Couldn't believe it when I revealed the answer, which is how many times has Pep Guardiola's side scored five goals or more in a game? It's happened 66 times. Wow. Very good. That's because I asked them all to recreate their shock an oar in the break and they completely fluffed it. But yeah, Pep City have scored five goals in a game 40 times. 40! They've scored 10 and 9 once. They've scored 8 twice, 7, 5 times.

33:33They've scored 6 goals 17 times. Absolutely remarkable stuff. Are you saying Exeter City, you're not special? Is that the message? Exeter City, well done lads, you got a goal back in the end. Like, I'm chuffed for them. But I think even Exeter City fans would not want me to talk about that game any more than I have done. All ready. we were talking about managerial power plays in the first half of the show and it's time for update 931 from our Tottenham Hotspur man in the studio Tom Allnut Thomas Frank where are we at? I've got Tottenham fans who are pals it's a different sigh isn't it? instead of it's we've got we've got lots of Tottenham fans who are listeners who regularly get in touch with me in different ways Christopher who's already been mentioned on the show previously he said we showed some fighting spirit after the final whistle just not during the 90 minutes of this game he's regularly been saying Moresca's gone Amarin's gone why aren't we doing the same as I've mentioned some of our colleagues on the sports desk as well can't believe he's still there but he is and as we understand it will still be there at least for this week maybe who knows yeah I mean I think this was a performance that wasn't a sackable performance right let's say that you know I think losing at home to 2-1 to Villa and they played pretty well in the second half actually started alright as well but they played alright in the second half There was kind of a spirited threat of a comeback, I guess you could say.

34:53Other positives, I thought Xavi Simons probably played his best game for Spurs so far. I thought he was really bright, looked really sharp. I personally think if Frank's got any chance, he needs Xavi Simons to kind of come to the table. Because obviously of all the creative problems he's had. As a number 10? As a number 10, yeah. As a director, to be honest. You know, he needs to be kind of almost the main man in the Spurs team, which we haven't seen in these first few months. I thought Paulinho was good. I love the way Pallini just goes around knocking people over, some sledgehammer tackles, which aren't allowed anymore, but should be allowed.

35:24And they're just great fun to watch. The Football League defender nodding next to us. But overall, listen, Tottenham lost a game at home against a Villa team. They didn't rotate as much as they perhaps could have done, but they still had two or three key players not there. And in the first half, when they were one down and then two down, honestly for 20-30 minutes it felt like end of days kind of stuff it did you know and I feel experienced I've seen lots of end of days I was going to say so I've got a good radar for end of days kind of performances and when you say is it on the pitch or is it in the stands is it the atmosphere is it vibes based as you said in the first half of the show both yeah the players to me for that 30 minutes you know looked broken I thought you know I thought the way the team had no response to going 1-0 down That was the big problem.

36:14And the fact that Villa just basically walked in a second goal. And you're almost kind of beyond that point where there's been red cars, there's been the fans kind of arguing with the players, there's been the players Instagramming the board, and it's all been kind of anger, anger, anger. I felt like when that second goal went in, you just saw fans filing out. It was almost like we just had enough. We're fed up with this. And I actually think the players look like they had enough as well. The counterpoint to that, and it's important to say, is that the second half was much better. And whether the players were playing for Frank or playing in spite of Frank, who knows?

36:46We don't know that. But it was a response. And the fact that they got a goal back, they did actually score a second goal, but it was all out for offside. As I say, I don't think at the full-time whistle you thought, that's the end. But I think it was a little step closer. How has Thomas Frank seemed in recent weeks? Because you go to a lot of the press conferences, you speak to him before and after games. I was watching a clip of him on TV the other day. He's aged about five years in these six months that he's been at Tottenham. It's incredible. Bags under the eyes. Yeah. Looks a bit pale. Looks very pale.

37:15He looks deeply unwell. I agree with that. It's like the other voice. Yeah. Yeah, I mean, it's demeaning to what impressed conferences. He's still positive. And in a way, how can I say this, in a way that annoys Spurs fans, I think. Perhaps they're just looking to be annoyed at this point, you could say that. But I think, when he comes into presses after these matches and he did in this one as well, and he sort of immediately looks at the positive. You know, we played well in the second half. This happened. You know, we can get behind this. The fans got behind us. That's great. I do think there's a, and I don't want to go back to Ange because Ange had a lot of flaws and we went over them in a lot of detail.

37:52But there was one thing that I think Ange did well is that he knew how to speak like the manager of a, let's say, an ambitious club. You know, he would come into a press conference after that and know what the fans were thinking. You know, he would say, we're out of the cup, you know, and that really annoys me. We haven't got any trophies now for the rest of the season. and it's not acceptable to think this is okay. And then maybe like five minutes later, he'd say, we also attack well, like Xavi Simons was better. But he knew the thing to say was not to say in the first two or three sentences, we're building here, you know, the defence is a bit better, by the way.

38:23And in a way, I sympathise with Frank, I do, because I think everything he says is logical. You know, he's building layers in. He wants to work with the defence first. You know, the squad is probably not quite as good as he thinks it is. And I really don't think it is. You know, I think the Spurs squad is way off where they need to be in the top four. there are loads of mitigating factors for Frank but in his messaging and his projection to the players and the fans I don't think he comes across like someone who thinks that this is all not okay it's almost like this is acceptable it's just a sort of step and the massive fear I think that Spurs fans have had ever since the beginning when Frank was appointed was are we just going to be a club now that accepts mediocrity that we just accept being in the middle of the table and we might go for a European place here and there and I think that everything that Frank says and his demeanour in that kind of way almost kind of confirms those fears He's a process coach but you can't sound like I totally agree you can't sound like a process coach you can't sort of you know that can't be the message to the fans like you need to be winning here and now and he's come from a club he's that same team same discussion again everything built around him was set up to succeed and he had to he had to coach the players and make incremental improvements and you won't have the time to do that at Spurs and part of that will be because of the optics and the support he gets from the crowd Every time we have Tom on or I read the Spurs match report it's like some sort of Cormac McCarthy novel just endless suffering everywhere Is that a compliment?

39:55I think so, you sound like a novelist I'd take that part They've just got a soldier on in the road with a trolley and all this stuff happening around them and every now and then they get a can of peaches like yeah we've got but the key thing is I think that like with Manchester United you have to recognise that there has to be some sort of realignment and pain that comes with that and you have to get through it and if you do what United have done and drop and change very regularly that keeps setting you back a bit now I think they should be quite clear that the injuries one thing I'm interested in actually is last season the injuries were an issue as well and a lot of the blame was put with Poster Coglu but there's a similar issue with the injuries this season so perhaps Ange had a bit of a point, maybe he didn't maybe they're just quite unlucky but I think they have to really support the manager properly even if it gets really really bad and say we're going to stick with this project and see it through and give him proper backing and funding and wait for the players to get back and when he's got the players back then we'll judge him because I know Tom's come to smell and I'm going he's so naive that's not right how naive but it sounds very like last year with Andrew I mean it's incredibly familiar where we're saying wait till we get the players back and then we'll see you're all very educated people asking for logic logic doesn't work in football in 2026 as much as Johnny Northcroft wanted it the cannibals are here but Tom just some of those points that Hamza made there is there a chance that that could happen because we keep referencing some of the chopping and changing that's gone on at Manchester United and at Chelsea.

41:33Paratici as well, moving on to Fiorentina. Yeah, I mean... He was a key backer of Frank, right? Well, I mean, the thing is with Spurs is the ownership are very behind Frank, right? And Vinay Ben-Katashim is also very behind Frank. And clearly Vinay has this experience at Arsenal where he's most informed by when he was a chief exec at Arsenal and they went through this with Arteta and he came out the other side and everything was golden and rosy. Arteta did win an FA Cup very early. He did win an FA Cup and also in his first 30 games, he won 17 games Frank has won 11 and I think also you would probably say there were more signposts early on in the kind of Arteta period that you knew what they were trying to do it was still very bumpy Arteta played in the Covid period as well if there were fans there I'm not sure he would have survived that very true good point good point I wrote this in the piece before the weekend the kind of key metrics of Frank why do they bring him in in the first place if we're saying now they need to kind of bring in a whole new squad and make big new signings then why didn't they appoint a manager who would who kind of would do that that the idea of Frank was very much that he was kind of being brought in to develop players you know that they they had good young players in his team that he would make them better how many players in the Spurs squad have got better under Thomas Frank in the last six months it's hard to set Richarlison maybe Van der Ven's been fit you know and that's you know that's about it really you know they've sold Johnson and Johnson was one of the players everyone kind of thought well this guy could really thrive under Frank he's gone first week the window what else was Frank brought in to do you know progressive style of football they said haven't seen it.

43:00Honestly, I haven't seen it. And the other thing was culture. He was meant to be a big kind of culture creator. And I understand, and I think everyone understands these things take time. He's installed paddle courts at Hotspur Way. Great. Over time, these things are going to maybe make a difference. But in this first six months, the culture's got worse. Everyone's at each other's throats. The fans aren't happy. Nobody's happy. It's a very unhappy club. So I take the point that you give him time. And then there's a whole other debate about what do you do if you don't. What are the alternatives?

43:27Clearly with United and Chelsea, you're seeing that there's not an obvious thing mid-season. So maybe you just do because you do. But also, there has to be some reason why you give him time. And if you're thinking, why do we appoint him? Is he achieving those things we thought we would get from him? And if he isn't, then where's the evidence? That's to return to the point we made earlier, though, as in the manager's the only one under pressure here. There are lots of other people involved. And if that manager feels the pressure is uniquely on them, they will act in a way that is short-termist and what Spurs don't need right now is another person that will just like fix a door while the ceiling is like it has fallen in right you want someone that will address all of those issues properly and he needs to feel like he has that support and feels comfortable otherwise he'll start doing those sort of things and then you're back to square one again a lot of sense being spoken on the game podcast will we see some sensible decision making in modern football who knows Tom Olmert will keep you up to date Tottenham fans on The Times website let's move on to another manager who's been under pressure but got a much needed victory Nuno Espirito Santo at West Ham Gregor you were there to see it a West Ham win at home unbelievable scenes yeah 10 games without a win I have to say there weren't that much between West Ham and QPR the team who are 11th 11th in the championship augurs well for next season no the biggest bright spark was Tati Castellanos the new striker getting off the market it's a great header as well like beautifully timed and sort of looked like if you put crosses in the box he knows what he's doing and he's like he's got a better pedigree actually I said in my report it's not a sign in that everyone went oh like yeah maybe maybe he'll score the goals a lot of people went who?

45:11exactly yeah he's got two caps for Argentina he scored 14 goals for Lazio across Serie A and Europa League last season got into double figures for Girona in La Liga a couple of seasons before that Played in the MLS before So yeah he's not a superstar But he was actually bright in the game too He had some decent efforts He links play well Even in the build up for the first goal Both him and Pablo Who's the other centre forward Who came on in this game Another new signing They both used their bodies really well To sort of Jared Bowen played a ball inside From the right flank And they both kind of rolled a defender which showed like actually and also you know a big thing question mark when players arrive from whatever league as I keep banging on about it is can they deal with the physicality I know it's a championship team but big centre-halves they rolled them ball got moved out to Somerville goal Somerville also was a bright spark and he has been He's someone you've been saying for ages if he can actually deliver on his promise that he showed It kind of blew my mind you know he scores a goal and you get on whatever website and you look when he scored his last goal it was October 2024 and then you look for him Oh no, that's his second goal It's his second goal 18 months after moving For more than£25 million from Leeds When he was the best player in the Championship So it hasn't been a good return on the investment He hasn't been selected a lot of the time But I think he's been alright in the last few weeks actually He was decent against Forest There were some moments Where West Ham would turn over the ball in midfield Quite a few moments actually in the first half And he would drive the team forward up the pitch He's quick he's like a driving force when he's at it and you know getting a goal will be good for his confidence and for Castellanos too and for West Ham and for Nuno he smiled afterwards the first question was must be nice to win he was like it's really nice it's like so nice he just kept saying really really nice yeah and a big beaming smile and he thought oh that's nice but you're you're quite rightly pointing out that you know it is against QPR 11th in the championship we shouldn't get too carried away but are there is there a bit of hope for West Ham here because they've not been on this show and generally for the last couple of weeks they've got Tottenham on Saturday the big one El Crapico El Crapico very good El Sacico whatever you want anything and then they've got Sunderland at home then Chelsea away Burnley away I mean does anyone have hope for West Ham so many people have written them off Martin Samuel says they're already relegated anyone got some hope they need to sign defenders I sound like a broken record I realise that apologies listeners but it's true they started by signing two forwards great, that was important, there's a lot of areas they could strengthen but the biggest of all is defence they've conceded, what is it 43 goals now I think I think it's the worst in the league they Mavropanos went off with a neck injury and he was like, a lot of treatment on the pitch went off on a stretcher I don't think we'll see him for a wee while you know, you wouldn't hang your hat on him in the first place Max Killman came back in no one wants to see him at West Ham in the team it's really stark they definitely need defenders so if they sign if they sign a couple of centre-halves I actually think they've got enough going forward to score enough goals to stay up but it's just they need to tighten up especially when Nuno plays right I mean they're not going to score and create their way out of trouble it has to come from a solid base you know look at all his best teams it's come from being well organised hard to break down and then they beat teams on the break you know and if they haven't got that firm foundation they've got no chance yeah good some big games coming up let's move on and talk about Fulham Middlesbrough Hamza you were at this game Fulham one of the form teams in the Premier League continuing that form in the FA Cup and it was all down to Harry Wilson he's got to be one of the form players in the league at the moment hasn't he yeah first of all this was a wicked match oh that's so nice I love it when Hamza enjoys a game I feel so so satisfied like I said there's been a lot of rubbish matches I've watched this season this was not one of them it was a real joy and it was a credit to English football actually the way that both teams attacked throughout the match.

49:18Middlesbrough were better in the first period. They built in a really sort of attacking way. They used Hayden Hackney in a variety of different roles. They played through the right, had cutbacks, really, really nice moves. And because of that, they took a deserved lead. And Marcus Silva's never been knocked out of the FA Cup in the third round. He's a good record, reached the quarterfinals twice in the past three years, and he was not going to let that record go. And on the 55th minute, he sends on Harry Wilson. with Tom Kearney and Raul Jimenez. And Wilson is, at the moment, he's playing a different level of football where he's attempting things that other players wouldn't ordinarily do and it's coming off.

49:59I mean, like, the first goal, he just cuts in, shoots, bang, goal. And it's just so easy for Harry Wilson. It looks so certain, doesn't it? I thought that in the Chelsea game when, yes, they were playing against 10 men for a long time, but he just absolutely ran the show in that game against a lot of world-class players. And then he gets the ball and you just see him, he's orchestrating play now. They're looking to him. And I was actually a bit concerned when Iwobi went to the Africa Cup of Nations that Fulham would struggle without him. And I thought Wilson's playing well. I wasn't sure if he'd be able to do what Iwobi's doing.

50:29And he has, in addition to what he was already doing. So he's orchestrating play and then finishing it. And then you get the goal at the end, the 92nd minute or whatever, which is just a ridiculous flourish. The ball comes across to him and he just sort of impudently he sort of dinks up the outside of his left foot to the back post for an easy tap-in. You're like, this guy's playing out of this world football at the moment. He's playing brilliantly. I was there two, three years ago when he scored that goal in his palace, Joe. Yeah, a beautiful move, yeah. Real technical quality, honestly. Yeah, I mean, he's 28.

50:59He's out of contract in the summer, as Marco Silva keeps pointing out in his press conferences as well. Another manager who's maybe thinking about his future and thinking, if you don't keep Harry Wilson, then I might not stay here much longer. I mean, as you referred to at the start, before we started recording, Gregor, there was talk about him potentially moving on from Fulham in the summer. Yeah, it was close to weeks apparently. People are going to be looking at him surely for a move in the summer, aren't they? Well, yeah, suddenly the dynamic shifted. He was possibly someone they wanted to realise a bit of a return on their investment on in the summer.

51:27And now his form is just ridiculous. And yeah, the power is in his hands. He could run down his contract and see who'd take a punt on him. It could be a punt. Has anyone seen anyone lately in the live games that you're going to that, as Hamza said, you just buzz off by going, wow this guy's in amazing form he's got to be one of the form players in the league hasn't he? anyone seen anyone lately who can keep up with him? we already mentioned I loved watching Carioglu just the way he carries the ball you know he's such a great watch he sort of socks low down and just keeps going and going I mean I love that guy fantastic left back Greg you've seen a lot of West Ham lately so this is a tough question for you there's a guy called John McGinn oh for God's sake bleep that out John McGinn's going to become a swear word I'm serious I think he's been among the best players in the league this year No one thinks you're joking I'm serious No one thinks you're joking I'm serious He was great again At the weekend And Yeah Telemans was also excellent Telemans was being brilliant You know We don't want to talk about John McGinn Then Telemans was Surely talk about Morgan Rodgers as well But anyway yeah No but he's right I wrote a piece about Adam Morton Not so long ago About the way he kind of Progresses the ball Passes the ball And he's someone who's really Like similar Someone who passes against I was at the Arsenal game In that first half You know You get the ball deep And he's under pressure and just release Watkins or Rodgers like just a pass that you didn't see and he's great at that so he's really important for Aston Villa and the way they play We mentioned a couple of teams Tottenham and West Ham that need signings are there any other clubs that you think we're in the middle of the transfer window now being fairly quiet so far anyone that comes to mind that you think they need X they need Y to improve their season to get European football to make sure that they're not getting relegated anyone coming to mind?

53:06Liverpool might want a defender I don't think they'll do it but they probably could do with one given that Bradley's out for the season now. And Gomez is their only right back cover. So hard though for a team like Liverpool to get a player because you don't want to, you know, you can't just kind of, you need to kind of, you talked about the American model, you need almost a trading model, don't you? Where you just, can we just borrow him for like six months? That would be really ideal. And then we'll give you him instead and just swap for six months. That'd be really nice. You've also got, one thing that people don't consider is that you've got like pathways as well.

53:34So like you don't want to buy a player having spent, for example, a number of months in the previous year working with another player and saying we've got a vision for you we want you to play a lot we think that you're going to do this and they pick up an injury and then you buy another play in the same position then that player's going to feel that you negotiated with that you've sort of you've misled them a bit so it's not straightforward and then you also want them to develop as well because when they develop that's better for the team and let's say you're going to sell them you get more value or if you're going to keep them that's even better for the team so yeah it's a little bit more complicated than people assume yeah Tom anyone that brings to mind positions players I mean Spurs need firepower you know if they were to sign one like position if they were only to spend because so much with Tottenham has been about you know stop signing players that are kind of like 7 out of 10 squad players potential spend a lot of money on one player who would you go where would you go left wing I think is the you know position they need most I mean they haven't replaced Son but even you know last couple of years Son was sort of not quite what he was and so they up front they need something they've got Solanke and that's another thing I mean he came off the bench against Villa which is obviously really important he came back for 10 minutes and that's a big thing so you'd think if he's okay then they'd maybe be alright just about in terms of central kind of striker but they need kind of a game changing winger you know I mean that's what they haven't had for so long now I think I mean they tried with Eze for example even Gibbs-White that kind of number 10 position but they could redo someone on the left I mean they were thinking about Savinho weren't they but now he's out injured for two months you know I don't think they're going to go back there so that's the challenge I think for them I think Newcastle really need to defend there Martin Hardy wrote about that in the game today the Bam Burns out Sharr's out Lascelles is out I know Lascelles is a backup but they're down to the bare bones and they've got a ridiculous schedule so I think we'll see Newcastle seeing a defender this month yeah really interesting keep up to date with the latest transfer news on the Times website chaps we'll leave it there Hamza, Khalid, Lunat Tom Allnut Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me and thank you for making all the way through an episode talking about the FA Cup without mentioning the magic word well done indeed listeners thank you very much for joining me as always.

55:37We'll be back on Thursday. We'll see you then.