SPECIAL EDITION: Scotland qualify for the World Cup!!

0:04Hello and welcome to this very special bonus episode of the Game Football Podcast from the Times I repeat, Scotland are going to the World Cup. Steve Clarke's side produced an incredible 4-2 win against Denmark at Hampden Park on a night packed with emotion, stunning goals and last-minute drama. I'm Tom Clarke and I'm joined by the former Scotland Under-21 international and Times writer, Gregor Robertson, and the Scottish football correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Michael Grant. Chaps, that's already far too many words from an Englishman. Michael, you were there. You wrote a brilliant and moving match report on the Times website.

0:44How are you feeling this morning? Oh, yeah, good question. Weary, excited, dazed. I was just saying before we came on earlier, you don't sleep well after these matches, you know? That's certainly the case for writers who are covering it on deadlines, but also I think for fans because there was just so much to take in last night. It was almost overwhelming, Tom. And I don't say that lightly. I mean, I've been going to Scotland games since the mid-80s and covering them since the mid-90s, and there has not been anything like that last night. For various reasons, just you had the momentous circumstances of the occasion and what was at stake and what Scotland could achieve.

1:30You had the kind of typical way of, they had it in their hands, it was away, they had it again, it slipped away. they're eight minutes away from losing an automatic place at the World Cup and then they come back and they win it. And of course, the quality of the goals, these iconic goals just seem to be one after another. So you put all that together and that's a set of circumstances over 90-odd minutes or whatever it was, 99 minutes in the end that you're not going to get again. I mean, those who were lucky enough to be in the stadium last night will never forget that. And it was extraordinary.

2:12And it's the greatest night that Scotland's ever had at Hamden and probably ever, to be honest. What was Hamden like? I mean, it must have been the loudest you've ever heard it, particularly those late two goals. I mean, it was incredible to watch on the telly. So to be there must have been remarkable. Yeah, yeah. Listen, it can be loud. I mean, I think we all know when the fans are on it, it can be allowed it was pandemonium last night and it was just that kind of outpouring of emotion that you get when a supporter has waited a long time for something I mean there's been a couple of Euros recently which ended a long wait to get to any tournament but having not been to World Cup for nearly 30 years, a lot poured out of the fans last night young ones who have never seen this before old ones who thought it might never come again and when the final whistle went, and the final whistle was almost lost, by the way, in the kind of fallout of the McLean goal because that was almost the last kick.

3:09So all you saw was players and staff and substitutes just streaming onto the pitch, running in all different directions. I mean, it was, you know, the sensors were scrambled kind of thing by what you were watching, but it was just brilliant and joyous. And yeah, I mean, Clark used the word magical later on. He said that nobody left even when it went to two each he said nobody left because they could sense they could smell there was maybe magic in there and that was listen that's unusually colourful from Steve Clarke but he was right you know yeah we'll get on to Steve Clarke in a minute Gregor magical joyous some of the words Michael's using there I can see you beaming away back in your house in London I mean you joked about watching this on your own in a bedroom I mean that must have still been absolutely mental you must have been jumping up and jumping for joy punching the walls, all of it.

4:03Yeah, it felt like a pretty good place to be watching it for about 80 minutes of it because it was tough. You know, the kind of wide-eyed wonder of that McTominay goal, just, you know, sense of disbelief. What have I just witnessed? You know, the guy has undergone some transformation in Naples, but I don't think anyone knew he had that in the locker. And then, yeah, we were just kind of far too early kind of hacking the ball clear and just deep down you thought we can't hold on for 87 plus minutes defending like this and then the way we kind of conceded the equaliser with the VAR kind of intervention I thought this is typically Scotland everything seems to be typically Scotland and then yeah the end was just the best the best moment you know Michael said it's the best moment in kind of Hamden's history it's certainly the best moment I've ever witnessed as a fan of Scotland a fan of anyone really most kind of dramatic and there's something different about watching international football and like although I was on my own watching it in my darkened living room I was still as full of joy and beaming as anyone else and you know like I spoke to so many friends and family and stuff afterwards and And everyone's just like, there's that collective sense of pure happiness that international football provides, unlike anything else.

5:35So it was an incredible night, incredible night. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, I was watching it at home. I was watching it on my phone. And when it was 2-2 with like 10 minutes to go, I said to my wife, do you mind if we put this on the telly? Just because there's a tiny chance this might be the best 10 minutes of football you'll ever see. And it turned out I was more than I could ever have expected. but Greg and Michael had the privilege of having the Hampton and Hampton crowd with him. We watching at home had the privilege of Scottish commentary. Let's just make a quick word for them because it was absolutely class.

6:07And I say that as we do this podcast, nothing can touch the Scottish commentary last night, Michael. Whether you've gone back and watched it, absolutely brilliant. All of them screaming shoot when Kenny McLean's on the ball. There was a fantastic moment when they'd been complaining about Denmark wasting time. And then after Kieran Tierney scores, they all start showing. Take your time, boys. Take your time. It's like, absolutely brilliant. I mean, I really hope there's a separate Scottish dedicated channel for the World Cup. I absolutely loved it. But I mean, you guys have summed it up, some of it there.

6:38Like, Michael, what does this mean to Scotland? Because, you know, you had hinted at so much of the pain that you've had to go through waiting since 98. What does this mean to have made a World Cup? Scotland are going to a World Cup. Yeah. Listen, it's enormous. I think probably the ultimate pain was that we weren't qualifying for anything up until Euro 2020. And then there's been back-to-back European championships. So fans, especially in the last one in Germany, because they were able to go, have got the taste for it. But the World Cup is obviously bigger. Funnily enough, Gregor will remember this as well, but back in the day, Scotland used to qualify for World Cups but not European Championships.

7:22and I don't say that lightly. Scotland qualified for five World Cups in a row when I was growing up. They tended never to make it to European Championships, and we were kind of like, who cares about European Championships? Minor trifling competition every couple of years, every four years. But yeah, so there's something within Scottish fans of a certain age that we see ourselves as being worthy of a World Cup, and a World Cup isn't fully credible unless Scotland are there, which is maybe embellishing it a little bit. But it's lovely to be back. And what you'll get, you saw 200 ,000 went to Munich for the opening game of the last European Championship.

8:05I mean, those numbers are staggering. People listening to that for the first time will think, well, he must have his numbers wrong. It was 200 ,000 Scotland fans went to Munich. Now, you're not going to get anything like that going to America, unfortunately, because expense, flights, accommodation, tickets. but you do obviously have a big expat Scottish community out there that people will, that Scotland can tap into in Canada and in America. But it's just excitement, Tom. It's just, listen, it's new. I mean, I don't think, we haven't been to a tournament on another continent since Mexico 86. Yeah.

8:43So, you know, England have occasionally missed tournaments, but it tends to be one, and, you know, one, rather than a run of missing them. And even then, even that's going back in time now. England are very consistent qualifiers. Scotland haven't been. And also there's the economic boost. It'll be good for the pubs and the hospitality trade in Scotland. It'll be good for the economy in general. But right now, it's just the feel-good factor. It's just what it does to morale and the psychological boost. I said to you guys before we started recording, a sunshine in Scotland today. Yesterday it was peeing rain and freezing and today the sun's out.

9:25Excellent. Can't say any better than that. Greg, taking on that same question, what does it mean? What does it mean to you, to your pals? As someone who played the game for Scotland, what does it mean? Yeah, I mean, I wrote about it when we made the Euros the first time and I think I was 13 in the previous time we made your tournament. And it was like, that's 98. And I was at school. And I remember bunking off school because the headmaster held a meeting in the morning and said, because the kickoff time was like early afternoon. He was like, no one's allowed to leave. And that was the most ludicrous idea I'd ever heard of.

10:06And the gates opened at lunchtime. I remember it just flooded out the gates. It was incredible. Everyone compiled back to my house to watch it. So like, as I say, there's nothing like it for that kind of those moments, those kind of communal moments. And to have like my entire adult life without that, and, you know, not just me, anyone of my generation, that's the painful thing for a nation that loves football to the extent of Scotland. So to do the Euros twice, now to make it to the World Cup, which is a bigger thing on scale. It's not just, you know, it's more iconic. It's more exotic. It's more everything.

10:44It's just bigger and better. And to be back part of that is an absolute joy for everyone involved. But as Michael says, the main thing is right now, the feel-good factor, it's like everyone I know basically has been in touch. and, you know, just sharing our happiness. Tom, I was just going to say, I mean, I genuinely, and obviously I'm biased and me and Greg are biased, but I do think a tournament can be enriched by Scotland being there. Listen, I don't necessarily mean on the pitch. We know our limitations and we know that we carried our luck and so on in this campaign, but Scotland is a very proud and traditional and serious football country, you know, And I think a tournament is enhanced by them being there.

11:32The fans are superb. I'm not going to say there's any exceptionalism about that. I mean, there are a lot of countries that have got great fans, great sets of fans, and we've seen that in recent years. But Scotland do as well, and they're travelling in big numbers and they're incredibly colourful and passionate. And that enriches a tournament. And I do think that people will be pleased, neutrals will be pleased, I think, in a lot of cases, that Scotland have made it back. Absolutely, definitely agree with that one. No Scotland, no party, after all, is the saying. Michael, you're going to be going.

12:04Gregor, we need to start the game podcast crowdfunding, don't we? We need to get you there. Not sure whether you'll get that past your partner and your kids, but we need to try and make it happen. I've already started having the conversation. I'm playing the groundwork, though. Play the groundwork. Well, your eldest daughter's four, nearly five. This is a perfect time for Scotland to get to the World Cup. Yeah, I'll play this back. Make sure she gets her first kit and first shirt. Chaps, we're going to take a very, very quick break. We're going to come back. Make sure you stay with us, listeners, because we're going to rank those great goals we saw last night and we're going to talk about the legendary status of Steve Clarke.

12:33We'll see you in just a second.

12:46Welcome back to this very special episode of the Game Football Podcast from The Times, talking all about Scotland's triumphant return to the World Cup. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Michael Grant and Gregor Robertson with me. We're doing this show very quickly. So again, apologies listeners if I sound a little bit like I'm in a fish tank. We're doing this very hurriedly from the Times offices and with the guys around the country. Guys, I wanted to talk about Michael Clark. Well, I do want to talk about those amazing goals, but I think it's a good place for us to finish talking about the goals. Talking about, sorry, Steve Clark.

13:15Where is he now, Michael, in Scottish football history, legacy? Because as you said, guys said in the first half of the show, a country with proud footballing tradition, got amazing players from down the years and indeed amazing managers of course where does Steve Clarke rank now in terms of Scottish footballing history with what he's achieved as manager? Well obviously you know Scottish football history in terms of management and the contribution that Scotland has made to club management has been exceptional and second to none really when you talk about Ferguson and Shankly and Busby and Steen and you know a pretty considerable supporting cast as well but most of them or all of them really were defined by club achievements so where I think Clark comes in now is the most successful Scotland manager we've ever had of the national team last month he reached 72 games which is longer than anybody has ever endured as a Scotland manager and this month he has, or last night in fact he qualified for a third tournament and nobody's ever done that we've had two, Andy Roxburgh got two Craig Brown got two, Clark himself was on two, he's now on three so I think he is the most successful Scotland manager we've ever had he is still a divisive character for a lot of the fans he's not he's never been short of his critics for the style of play there's been a lot of these big games where we haven't delivered and they have been let downs and to be fair and to be blunt, we've been pretty poor at the two tournaments that we've turned up at and qualified for.

14:57But he's got an exceptional record in qualifying games and you saw that last night. So I'm pleased for him because he puts so much personal stock into qualifying for the World Cup. He's been talking about this for a long time. He's always had a bit of a bee in his bonnet that he didn't get to the World Cup as a player. He wasn't included in the squads back then so he thought this was a way to put it right. And I think he felt that the chances slipped away when we lost the playoff to Ukraine last time, which was one of those letdowns I'm talking about. But his critics are quiet today because he's delivered.

15:38He's taken a team probably at the last chance for a lot of these players. You're Andy Robertson, John McGinn, Craig Gordon, these guys, a lot of guys in their 30s, just around the 30 mark. and maybe this was their last chance for a World Cup. And Clarke's got them across the line. I mean, listen, it's been a hell of a... Hear them, scare them. You know the last two games, 11 goals. They've scored six and conceded five against Greece and Denmark over the last week. It's insane. It's not doing anything for my blood pressure, by the way. But it's been thrilling, you know? And Steve Clarke is not a thrilling manager, you know?

16:14His football is pretty conservative and cautious. He's bone dry in terms of his quotes to us. He almost takes pride in it, I think. We get on okay with him, but he doesn't give us much in that sense. But yeah, listen, right now he's beyond criticism because he's delivered. We'll need to do something when we get to America. It's not just a case of qualifying, but that can wait. Right now it's just glorious. Never seen him so emotional either as last night. It was very different. It was kind of even just the joy on his face, but he was embracing the players and saw him say to Roberts just before he hugged Roberts we did it, we did it and yeah you could see it was a huge relief for him and he spoke, he is bone dry but he was a little bit more open I think last night saying things about the way he approached the first 12 to 18 months in the job and it's kind of how he was going to choose to tackle the job really and he decided then it was about accumulating experience and caps around a core of really important players for the nation.

17:20That might sound obvious, but you could have done the whole thing that some managers do or are hired to do, which is change the culture and make them play expansive football, try and make Scotland into a nation. I don't know, like Stephen Kenny experiment with Ireland that failed. No, he saw a way of centering it around a core group of really, really good players playing at the top level and making them more and more experienced. and he also referenced that Ukraine game and said, remember that, remember this feeling, bottle it, and next time, get over the line. He didn't tell him how to get over the line, he said, get over the line, and he did it.

17:58And the other thing, Gregor, that I think has always been a quality that he's had is he's had buy-in from these senior players. Right from the start, they've clearly respected Steve Clarke and they've turned up for him. We used to have squads where you'd get mass call-offs and withdrawals and very dubious sounding injuries and players pulling out and then miraculously available for the clubs at the weekend. That's not been a feature underclack. Now, maybe some things have helped. There's more competitive games now than there are friendlies. You've got guys like Andy Robertson and John McGinn who are passionate Scottish footballers who I think in both their cases are maybe now thinking, I can get 100 caps.

18:41So that's a motivation to keep going. But in general, I think it's been one of the great strengths that Steve Clarke has had, that he's had that buy-in from players and that's to his credit. Yeah, an amazing achievement for Steve Clarke. It's funny, Michael, you're talking about the, sorry, Greg, the emotion he was showing at the end. He managed to not show much emotion when Scott McTominay scored probably one of the greatest overhead kicks scored by any footballer, never mind a Scottish footballer, telling all the players to calm down. I was like, come on, Steve, for God's sake. That is an amazing overhead kick.

19:09His assistant, Stevie Naismith, was like, hearing down the line, he was like the first to congratulate him. What are you doing down there? but he was doing the same he's like fingers to the temples focus it's the third minute don't get carried away it is amazing but let's talk about those goals because I mean as I say McTominay is one of the best overhead kicks ever I mean it evoked Ronaldo for Real Madrid against Juventus which is about as high a grade as you could give Scott McTominay like I've asked you both alongside another Scottish colleague of yours Johnny Northcroft to rank where these goals come McLean Tierney and McTominay with respect to Lauren Shankland, of course.

19:49But the McTominay one, first of all, this goal, nothing sums up better his journey and his footballing story than the fact that he would even try and score this goal, never mind the fact that he would pull it off. Yeah. You know, listen, there's a benefit of hindsight, but I did, and I'm telling you this with a benefit of hindsight, but I had thought, and I said this to my son, that I thought McTominay might do something special in the match. And I actually had a bet on Scotland 1-0 when McTominay had the goal scorer, which was looking excellent after the fourth minute of the match and would have earned me nearly 200 quid.

20:27So, frankly, I'm quite disappointed in all the subsequent goals, no matter the quality of them. I just wanted Clark to park the bus and sit it out. But it was brilliant. McTominay, there's just something about McTominay now that he's got that kind of main character syndrome thing, hasn't he, that you think it would have just been fitting if that had been the winner because it was such an iconic, an immediately iconic goal. As it turns out, you know, once I calm down and get my senses back together, I'm glad that it all went the way it went because it was such a thrilling night and we got more thrilling goals.

21:05But to me, that's the best one. That's the best Scotland goal that I think there ever has been because of the consequences of it and the drama and just the wow factor of the bloody thing. Just also remembering that McTominay was playing a back three in the first Euros we qualified for. Like this journey has not just been, you know, he's had a journey in club football, but he's had a bit of a journey in the national team as well. Like he's just become the go-to guy for goals. And it's just extraordinary what can happen when you leave. It's wrong to call Man Utd a comfort zone, but it was the place that he'd been for his whole career and maybe opinions had already been formed about him and where he should play.

21:47Even if he did play in this more advanced role in his younger years, his way into the team was in a more defensive role and Man United were in a bad position as a club. And he's just been completely liberated by this move and the confidence oozes out of him. He just looks like, I don't know, even with his hairdo now, he looks like some kind of 80s style icon or whatever. Yeah, he looks fantastic. And as much as you talk about main character energy, Michael, which is right, I love that his celebration had the kind of Cristiano Ronaldo swagger, but then you realise that he was mouthing the words, where's my mum?

22:23Yeah, where's my mum? He's looking into the crowd going, where's, oh, there she is. Did you see that? Unbelievable. Gregor, just quickly from you on the other two goals, because I asked you to rank them, and you, like the great bottle job you are, managed to pick both Kieran Tierney and Kenny McLean as joint first as your favourite ever Scottish goals yeah well we we had a chat on the phone this morning didn't we and I thought Kieran Tierney's was like that was the moment that was the moment where everything was turned on its head we were out and then we were through and it was you know that was the decisive moment McLean's was it was a great strike as well it was of course it was yeah the running the running off the right flank to be like I'm going to pick up the ball that you see him do Yeah, and the whole thing about Steve Clark afterwards, being able to laugh about, you know, it was a good decision to put on a left foot at right back, wasn't it?

23:12He's like, probably would have got some stick for that. I was one of them. I was like, this is, you know, he's just trying to pile players onto the pitch. But he said he's one of my main men. Like, you saw why he did it. And it was a great goal. But clearly, McLean's was a more kind of, you know, fantastical goal. That was like, I described it in the wee piece. was like, Kieran Tierney's was the moment where you punch a hole in the ceiling celebrating and Kenny McLean's is the moment you fall to your knees, like, in relief. And like, wow. You know, it was like, there was a different sort of emotional pull for both of these goals to me.

23:47I couldn't say, so in the end, and then I watched the team celebrating, McLean's, in the changing room. Have you seen that footage? Scotland's ex-account, like, whoever the admin has done a great job once again in the aftermath of the victory. And they showed the players celebrating McLean's goal. And the goal kept being played on loop, like in different angles, and they just celebrated it time and time again. And so, you know, you realise actually probably that's the one that'll be quite iconic. You know, it'll be really iconic. Like that kind of captures and confirms the fact that we qualified.

24:23But Tierney's was the game changer. So I couldn't separate them. Sorry. So there you're joined top two. What's your other two, Gregor? Two and three. Best scotch goals ever. well McTominay is two I even said that like of course it's the most beautiful but the context matters so that was number two and then number three has to be Archie Gemmell even though I wasn't born you're kind of brought up realising this is the kind of epitome of like glorious failure plus train spotting immortalised it and the atomic tune and Renton's words although I was I said that I think perhaps it'll be our generation maybe say I haven't felt this good since Kenny McLean scored from the half-wheeling against Denmark I hope so Michael your top three just to finish off I went McTominay 1 and I went McLean 2 and I mean how insane is this that you're talking about the two greatest Scotland goals ever I mean we're making the case for it people make other cases but I think you've got a strong case for seeing goals 1 and 2 coming in the same match a game that even if it had been dreadful with a scrappy winner had enormous significance for the country but instead of talking about two of these great, great goals coming and the Tierney one which doesn't make my top three because I had Archie Guelm lost my third poor old Archie by the way he went into last night the greatest goal of Scotland's history and now he's down to three James McFadden in Paris by the way is worth an honourable mention but I was just going to say the Tierney goal listen there's a million clips doing the rounds and Gregor's right that some of the Scottish official stuff is fantastic but there's a clip of the Tierney goal from behind the goal from the stand and it's an even better hit when you see it from that angle it's going out and it's going past the post or it looks like it is and then it comes back in.

26:26It's a terrific hit. So, yeah, I mean, it's just a really kind of intoxicating night and just mesmerising that there were so many incidents and so much kind of high quality and unforgettable moments in one night. It's just really kind of lost for words about it. It's extraordinary. Yeah, unforgettable night indeed. Michael Grant and Gregor Robertson, we'll leave it there for now. Our listeners, if you've got any views on Scottish greatest goals, do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. We hope you've enjoyed this very special bonus episode all about Scotland's triumph. They are going to the World Cup.

27:04We will be back on Thursday with the regular show when Gregor, I'm sure, will still be talking about Scotland.