SPECIAL EPISODE: Arsenal are Champions and Pep leaves City

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1:14Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Arsenal are Premier League champions and Pep Guardiola is leaving Manchester City. This is a special bonus episode of the game after a huge week in English football. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today in part one, we have Gary Jacob, the football reporter who has covered Arsenal for the Times for many years and has witnessed this season's triumph up close. And in part two, I will be joined by the Times Chief Sports Correspondent Matt Lawton to discuss Pep Guardiola's impending exit from Manchester City. But first, Arsenal.

1:49They've done it. Premier League champions again after a 22-year wait. So many near-misses in recent seasons. But Mikel Arteta's side have claimed the trophy at last, thanks to Manchester City's draw at Bournemouth last night. I was on the Times editing desk last night and the man providing the definitive read into how Arsenal managed to win the title this season was Gary Jacob. Gary joins me now. Gary, lots to get into, lots of details in your brilliant piece that I want to ask you about. But first, this is a huge, huge moment for Arsenal, for the players, for the club, for the fans. And they are deserved winners of this title, aren't they?

2:27Morning, Tom. Astonishing. I think to witness those scenes outside the Emirates, to witness the players at the training ground and then going to the ground and the sheer euphoria on their faces, You can see how much it means to them, but also you can see about the weight of history on their shoulders. You sort of had the whole Wenger years and the trophies early on. And it's been a kind of complete weight around the club all of this time. And even over the last few years and finishing second, you can feel that kind of, you just felt the whole thing lifted last night. And the kind of euphoria coming out in one.

3:02Some of the pictures, obviously, are coming out are amazing. as a and sacker outside the stadium you know down and going to school this morning um and they are deserve winners they've been the best team this season they've been they've been ups and downs they may you know they may divide people because they may not always play the the the best style and obviously they've relied on set pieces at times but overall they've been the best team they've had the best squad and they've addressed the things in previous years that that were issues look at last season, the squad issues, the disciplinary record, they've come out with that excellent this season.

3:38They've ticked all the boxes. And so you have to kind of give them credit for what they've achieved. Yeah, definitely. I mean, my next question was going to be about Mikel Arteta and how huge this was for him. But I think you've probably summed it up nicely there that it's been huge for everyone, hasn't it? You know, you've got Bakayo Saka in these celebrations last night, you know, with Myles Lewis Skelly. I love that video where Lewis Skelly's holding a bottle of champagne and they're both going, oh, they said we were the bottlers. Now we're holding the bottle. You know, look, we've done it.

4:06It's more than Arteta, isn't it? But it is huge for him, isn't it? Because he's had so many near misses. So many near misses, so many questions asked of him about whether he was a winner. He was, in fact, asked about the bottle, the Manchester City fan who had the bottle, the Arsenal bottle and pouring water in his mouth. And he was asked about it and he said he didn't look at it, but I'm sure he did. and all those type of small little things probably got to them you know it was one a few weeks ago with the Bournemouth fans charting second again oh leo leo leo when they won 2-1 and I think for Arteta it's got you look at the overall picture and I think people don't realize sort of state of the club it was declining under Wenger they were a little bit slow to kind of move him on Emery had quite a difficult task when he came in and when Arteta came in you know the dress room was slightly poisonous there were there were characters there who who weren't right for the club on on big money the club itself and the staff weren't really um motivated by working there um he himself kind of got consulted in to kind of ask people about their views of the club and it was generally negative so it was a slow rebuilding and obviously then when a few months and covid hit and they made cuts so all of these things you saw that really was at the bottom and he and he's rebuilt it over that period of time and he is obviously as we know he's one who who rely likes a lot of small details whether it's the olive tree or a dog but he likes all these small details because he wants to feel people are connected with the club and with each other and i think overall he's he's done a fantastic job yeah absolutely absolutely no we'll come back to some of those details in a second as well but you know so many little moments throughout the season that are detailed in this piece that I've mentioned that you've written but just I think we're touching on a little bit of the character that they've shown in recent weeks in particular and you know I have to give you praise here Gary I remember you sat in the game podcast studio with me and Gregor and I think it was Pete Rutzler talking after that Manchester City defeat and you said no I still think Arsenal will win this title and there weren't many people at that point who thought they would you know Manchester City players on the pitch afterwards Erling Haaland with his cheeky grin at the camera and things.

6:21But, you know, Declan Rice, that great clip, which will now be basically immortalised in Arsenal fan history. It's not done yet. This kind of mini season they've had since Manchester City game is remarkable, isn't it? And you beat Newcastle, draw in Atletico Madrid, beat Fulham comfortably and impressively, beat Atletico Madrid, that pivotal win at West Ham, obviously with the VAR controversy, and then beat Burnley on Monday night. That is a different Arsenal to the one we've seen before, isn't it? And that speaks to the things you've just outlined with Arteta and these big players that they finally delivered.

6:55Correct. And you've mentioned the big player there, Declan Rice. I mean, he's the one who's dragged the dressing room. He dragged the dressing room a few months ago when they had the poor results against Forest and Wolves. And he dragged them after the Man City game. I think there were two moments probably for me. The AFL final where they just didn't turn up. They struggled technically because City had a certain pressing style and Arsenal weren't technically good enough to play through them. And then the game at the Etihad where Arteta played a more technical team and they played much, much better, but they lost.

7:30And those to me were the two turning points because Arteta then in the running thought, OK, I can play a bit more technical players. And he played Lewis Skelly. And I think it kind of changed. he became a little bit less cautious in that period. They weren't always amazing in every game, West Ham, they weren't that free-flowing. But I think those were the two turning points. And like you say, Declan turned into Martin Odegaard and saying, it's not over yet. And I think as well, the fans came away from that game not totally disgruntled. I think they were disgruntled after the ALF final because they just were so poor.

8:07And they were probably disgruntled after Bournemouth and in both those two games, Mikel never looked to change it when you could see it going wrong. And I think they came away from the Etihad thinking, okay, we lost, but we actually played quite well. And, you know, if we can win the next five, City have got a difficult run. We can do this. And people forget, City were still behind Arsenal when they beat Arsenal, but it was a few days later when I think they beat Burnley from memory. Then they went top and I think they beat Burnley only 1-0 at the time. it was have city got enough goals against Burnley if it is going to go down to goal difference and and you've got to give Arsenal credit because like you say that they they dug in they've got the mentality and they could have broken and if they broke and you wonder what would have happened could some of the players of what would have happened this summer and they've been in terms of that the tag would have would have been there even more yeah you know there was a dice there been some dicey moments in the last five games nervy against Wolves nervy against Forest but Arteta called it.

9:09He said, it's a mini league. We've got to come top of the mini league. And he's done it. Yeah, absolutely. Delivering huge characters as well. You mentioned the Louis Skelly involvement in terms of that tactical change and playing some more technical players. And Declan Rice, what a huge character. He's been a brilliant signing. But there's one other player I want to mention, Bakayo Saka. We've talked about it on the pod with some of our colleagues as well. What a transformative figure he is for this team. You know, he's only played 45 minutes sometimes, but he just lifts the whole place. and in terms of Arsenal getting this trophy and delivering, I don't think, even if there are some listeners to this podcast who aren't Arsenal fans who are maybe a little bit begrudging of the style or anything, I can't imagine there's a single football fan in this country who begrudges Bukayo Saka being a Premier League champion.

9:52I am certainly so delighted for him because he has been there for this whole project, hasn't he, Gary? You know, Mark Mickal, he was in Arteta's first team, I think, first squad, maybe on the bench as a teenager. And now he's here. The star boy has got his Premier League title. Absolutely. I mean, I think the one memory I have to show what people think about him was that soon after Euros, when he missed the penalty, there was a pre-season friendly against Tottenham. And the Tottenham fans, the section, they clapped him and he went across and he clapped them back. And it just showed that he's so well respected in the game in general as a human being.

10:29And also the way he kind of represents the club and the way he leads his life on and off the pitch. and I mean on the pitch he's fantastic, he makes a difference to the team, he dovetails with Ben White, he can create, he can score goals, he's always a threat, he lifts the crowd, I mean the Arsenal crowd really lifts to him and off the field he epitomised what Arsenal always were as a club which was kind of we do things the right way, we represent the club in the correct manner, we act properly and with dignity and with humility and he has all those kind of attributes as a human being. Yeah, absolutely.

11:10Let's talk about some of the moments earlier in the season because we've talked about that mini league that they've won and done so brilliantly in terms of character. In your piece, you talk about coaches that I'm going to come on to in a second, but in terms of moments on the pitch, matches and things that you outline in your big long read that's on the Times website now, what are the ones that immediately spring to mind? I think Newcastle away. I think we all look at that and think they lost at Anfield where he was quite, Mikel was quite defensive. Similarly against City where they got a late equaliser as they put it through to Martinelli.

11:43And then he goes to Newcastle, changes it, and actually played really, really well, but were 1-0 down. And then the second half, they got two goals and turned it around. And I think that was probably the turning point because the handbrake came off in that game and they won. And I think it would have been difficult after that game if he'd lost. and Mikel references that game about the narrative because Liverpool started the season well and people were saying, oh, so Hans started the season well with all their buys and he references that game. I think obviously as well, and you might well have been in the office that night, Wolves away, Tom.

12:22Yeah, yeah. The way they're kicking the ball away, wasting time, game management. You think this is Wolves, this is the bottom club, what's going on here? Man United at home shortly before. They played poorly, playing for corners to try and equalise, did and then lost. And, you know, there were boos at the end. I mean, it was only a few months ago that there was a section booing after that game. Then obviously Downwind's goal against Everton. I think every Arsenal fan this season will probably remember that. The whole stadium was on their feet as he's running forward. And then the Bournemouth game was kind of another low point.

12:58And then probably, I think ultimately, really, I think that the two is probably the West Ham game because the VAR was so late in the injury time, because Mikel in the past had often talked about referees and VAR and because the decision split fans, I think, and because it was that mini run of the five games, I think everyone will look back on that game as probably being the pivotal game in the season, really, that tilted it, really. and even against Burnley on Monday they didn't play particularly well but I suppose they got the job done. I suppose when people kind of try to compare them with the Invincibles when you look at the Invincibles I think they also had 7-1-0 victories in that season.

13:42It wasn't always free-flowing. Arsenal had 8-1-0 victories this season so I think Paps has kind of rose-tinted glasses sometimes about teams but the standout game that I would say I really enjoyed this season was Arsenal losing at Villa. I thought it was for the neutrals, it was really a fantastic game. Villa won it at the end, but it really was a good game to watch. You outlined there quite a few setbacks that I think maybe people forget. So I want to come back to that theme in a second. But another great strand of your brilliant piece on the Times website now that maybe some neutrals and even Arsenal fans maybe haven't quite fully appreciated is the importance of a signing that Arsenal made and the coaching staff.

14:23They obviously made big signings on the playing field and so much has been discussed, particularly about Victor Jokeres. But it's Gabriel Ainzay, a former Manchester United defender, who has played a big part in this success. Tell us about the role that he's had and why Mikel Arteta brought him into his coaching team. I think he, you know, Roy Keane, who's autobiography, calls him a nasty and then a swerver. And I think he'd been brought in to work with the defence primarily, but also then to be that little bit of an edge and to give the team a little bit more. You know, the players haven't known what they're going to get from him.

14:57There's one day where he can be their best friend. You've seen sort of clips of him messing around with him in training. And the other, he can be a totally different type of character. And there's a clip of him pushing Gabriel at one point. and Gabriel seemed to kind of react and it all kind of goes away in sort of a friendly little thing. But I think he's given them that little bit of a kind of, I won't say nastiness, but a little bit of an edge to kind of get the job done. And certainly in recent weeks, I think anyone who watched Jocher Rez for half the season would probably say he can't hold the ball up for a£60 million striker.

15:36But Hines has been working at him with him on improving the way he holds up the ball and that's probably looking at the Atletico game the the tie it's certainly he's he's definitely improved that side of his games and so you've got to give him credit for that and also I think the coaching staff at a club are always very important because they need to not only for Adams on the pitch but they also need to kind of banter there needs to be that kind of relationship with the players you know because the manager is the one who obviously can be off can often be the the one who's always ticking them off always doing this the other coaching staff have to sometimes play that role of being good cop bad cop and so you've got people like Heinzer who can kind of play that sort of role it's that way of kind of know listening to what the players sort of maybe gripes on whatever and channeling them back in a softer way and equally putting messages and in another way to the players from above and I think people like Heinzer have been there he he's been at big clubs he's played for argentina he's worked with bielsa um um luis enrique so he's worked as well with top managers and i think that that's been a very important addition to the to the coaching staff and i would imagine there will be a probably maybe another sort of slight change of summer maybe to the coaching staff and maybe they'll kind of try and get a little bit more of that and that kind of the extra camaraderie because mikhail's all about that camaraderie the idea that you can kind of bounce off each other and the coaching stuff and then that the players bounce off each other yeah it just feels like listening to you Gary that a lot of the things that have maybe just gone slightly awry in recent seasons when they've just fallen short have come together you know yeah a lot of neutral fans and other fans kind of slightly mock some of Mikel Arteta's little gimmicks that he does maybe around the training pitch some of his lines in press conferences but he's obviously got brilliant set piece coach he's now got ain't saying and before there was said of the players, they don't quite have the character.

17:35Now you've got Declan Rice turning to his teammates and saying, it's not done. It's not done. But Kai Osaka being a leader. Is that the sense that this season actually has been built out of those near misses rather than that it's kind of been, you know, something that they're scared of? They've actually grown and learnt and this season's success is as much about, not just this season, but those near misses of the past. Yeah, I think for the players who experienced those for sure and sort of Odegaard has referenced that. I think when you look at the Arsenal squad, there weren't enough of them who were winners.

18:08You know, people like Tim O'Meara won in Holland and obviously Joche Reyes won in Portugal. But they were relatively small things. They obviously got players in the Spain squad, but they had players in the front squad who didn't kind of win a medal. And I think they needed to kind of, enough of them had to kind of win something. think they had a medal in their hand and feel like they've got a medal in their hand and i think that yeah probably i think when the arsehole fans look at it a few years ago probably the star was was a lot more attacking and they scored lots of goals and everyone enjoyed it but they didn't get over the line i think and they didn't get over a line two years ago on the last day city did it and then last season they kind of went slightly backwards and i think there was a bit of a rethink in over the summer and and i think like you referenced declan he he is uh he gabriel martin are kind of and bakaya pivotal figures in there and in kind of rallying the the the dressing room and but michael often sort of says he doesn't necessarily like look back on those kind of failures because i think he's the type of guy who always tends to look forward rather than kind of he doesn't necessarily use them as fuel he kind of he prefers to kind of look forward and look for changes you can make rather than kind of wallowing in in the past yeah well let's let's finish by looking to the future then rather than looking at the past and you know arsenal fans listening to this will be hoping this is just the start that this is not just oh we've won one trophy we can say the 22 year wait is over this is just the start not just with the coming weeks of celebrations and then of course that huge champions league final that you'll be at and covering for the times as well they are in a great position now Arsenal aren't they as a club as a team so many things we've not even mentioned on this show you know they've got one of the best goalkeepers in Europe in David Raya one of the best defences as Gregor Robertson always points out on this show it will always give you a chance Gabriel, Saliba, Timber, Calafiore fantastic performances from them this season how hopeful can Arsenal fans be Gary I guess listening to this as your final words not just maybe about that Champions League final but about the summer and beyond Mikel Arteta wants this to be the start of a dynasty, doesn't he?

20:21Absolutely. And I think there are a few things. One is that now they've kind of won something. I think that way goes off the shoulders. The Champions League final is a little bit of a free hit. No one's expecting them to beat PSG. So they can go there with a slight free hit without any pressure. And hopefully they perform. If they win it, everyone will be brilliant. If they don't win it, people will still say it's been a fantastic season and what he's done. and it's kind of where do we go from here how do we do the rebuild and that you know they've really been thinking about the rebuild uh in terms of changing changing the squad obviously Arteta will probably sign a contract this summer then you've kind of got a change in the type of squad improving in certain areas always looking for the kind of the the extra bits as a club themselves they're making a lot more money than they did in the past um and that's going to kind of grow and so all of the all the ingredients that are there for them and obviously the most important one perhaps is that Pep's going to be standing down and so there's now going to be a which team is going to now dominate for the next three or four years is there going to be a team that could dominate is it going to be Arsenal are they going to be able to take advantage of probably what's going to happen at City because it's not going to be easy for that transition immediately it's not going to suddenly click we're not sure what liverpool will come back with next year so that or united so there's a little window now for arteta and can he take advantage and imagine he in his discussions with the club about signing a contract this this will be what he'll be saying so okay you know i want to now dominate even more what you know what can we do what can what monies can be available who can i buy last summer was very much about squad fillers and the type of money they spent but are they going to look for a game changer this summer are they going to be willing to spend 80 90 million on someone like morgan rogers are they going to be willing to spend a serious money on another player and also for the arsenal fans you look at the way in recent weeks they've taken to lewis skelly be back in the team it's important for them that their skelly downwind sacker are also part of the future because there's a kind of link into the pitch so everything's rosy for them yeah when they sit down this summer and it's kind of work out where they want to be it's what can we do over the next five years can we dominate for the next five years can we dominate the Champions League absolutely Gary pointing out and teeing us up perfectly for part two with a couple of mentions of Pep Guardiola there but plenty of reasons for Arsenal fans to be celebrating and joyous in their own right they are Premier League champions as I've mentioned a couple of times on this show Gary Jacob has not only been the man to witness it all this season he has also written the definitive piece on how Arsenal did it loads more details in there on the work of Gabriel Ainzay and Mikel Arteta and those key moments throughout the season make sure you search Gary's name and Arsenal and you'll find that piece coming up either on your search bar or on the Times website now Gary thank you very much for joining me I'll let you go and get a bit of sleep you've got a bit more excitement to come a bit more excitement to come with that Champions League final we'll speak to you very soon Gary Jacob from the Times Thanks Tom Gary Jacob there loads of detail on Arsenal's Premier League triumph and as I mentioned teeing us up perfectly for part two of this game podcast special where we'll be talking to Matt Lawton about Pep Guardiola's impending exit from Manchester City, we'll be back just after this quick break

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25:11Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. This is a bonus episode in a huge week in English football. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined now by the Times' chief sports correspondent Matt Lawton to talk about Pep Guardiola and his impending departure from Manchester City. As ever, Matt, a big story on the Times website. Had you involved? This was a huge moment on Monday night, the story breaking that Pep was indeed going to leave. Just kind of sum up for us and listeners, you know, where we're at. We're recording this on Wednesday morning now. Just how big a moment this is.

25:47Oh, it's, yeah, I've been doing this job for over 30 years and it's as seismic as any we've seen, really. It's as big as Sir Alex Ferguson retiring. It's, you know, it's an overused phrase that's been repeated on numerous occasions across the media in the last few days, but it's the end of an era. It's been an extraordinary decade. He's won 20 trophies. He has changed the English game. His influence is, you know, incomparable. Yeah, absolutely massive. And in terms of it breaking now, we have alluded to it on this podcast, you know, you, Paul Hurst, Martin Ziegler, everyone has kind of written about this murmuring in the background that this might be Pep's final season at Manchester City.

26:33just tell the listeners a little bit more about those murmurings and how what challenge it is as a journalist and as a reporter to try and get these stories confirmed and how maybe Pep Guardiola's status and his you know stature in the game maybe kind of has made us all a little bit cautious about being sure that this is definitely done yeah it's look I think the mere fact that within minutes hours less than a day we've seen you know our own Paul Hurst's summary of Guardiola's career across 3 000 words and two pages of the times was ready to go and other other Manchester correspondents they've all had these pieces written and ready to go because everyone has believed for some time that this is this was going to be his final season the difficulty as journalists um and in a way you know the responsibility that journalists have to uh operate with is is the fact that that Manchester City just will not discuss it will not confirm it you know even now it's my understanding that they have a plan in place and their plan is as I believe is that they will announce it on Monday the whole point you know we saw we saw this week that they have this parade on Monday, but in addition to this parade on Monday, they have this after party, as they've called it, at the co-op, which is this fantastic new music venue that sits adjacent to the Etihad Stadium, that there's an after party and there's tickets available for£12.

28:10It's obvious that that is the farewell moment, that they have created this event at Manchester City to say goodbye to Pep Guardiola, but they will not be deviated away from their plan, which was that they won't discuss it until after Sunday. Now, the fact that they lost to Bournemouth last night could mean that he's prepared to talk about it on Friday, he might talk about it on Sunday. But certainly before the game yesterday, it was my understanding that Pep Guardiola would not respond to any questions about this and the club would not confirm that he was leaving because they didn't want to create any distraction away from trying to win the Premier League title.

28:53Now they've lost it. As I say, that might change. Their attitude towards that silence might change. But we'll have to see because, as I say, they've had a plan in place. And I don't think they really want to get into it until after the season's finished. And I think we definitely need to say for listeners who may be Manchester City fans who are listening to this, hoping that you might give them a crumb of hope that Pep Guardiola might do, you know, Leonardo DiCaprio in Wolf of Wall Street. I'm not leaving. I'm not leaving. I've changed my mind. This is a done deal. You know, we're going to talk about the plan that they've got for replacements and stuff.

29:30There is no hope for Manchester City fans thinking that Pep Guardiola might change his mind. He is definitely leaving the club. Yes, yes. It would be, you know, unless he does walk out onto the stage at the co-op on Monday and does exactly that. It does a Leonardo DiCaprio performance. Yeah, no, he's going. Yeah, it was challenging to get any form of confirmation on Monday. Yeah, he's going. He's going. And, you know, stranger things have happened, you know, and say it's slightly different, but Sir Alex Ferguson had announced his retirement in 2001 and then changed his mind in 2002 when he discovered that the squad was being handed to Svenja or Eriksson.

30:15So, you know, people can change their minds and you never know. If there's one sort of crumb of hope, I guess it would be that is he really going to leave when Arsenal have won the title? Will he not come back and wait one more time? But no, everything we're hearing is that he is going and this special event on Monday night will be his farewell. Yeah, could you imagine? I mean, this season just keeps getting more bonkers. Pep Guardiola walking out on stage to a packed co-op arena in Manchester and saying, no, I'm not off. But listen, the plan is there in place. And as you say, Paul Hurst has written a brilliant piece on the Times website about Guardiola's tenure at City.

30:51In terms of this plan that's in place, of course, big football clubs, big organisations in any walk of life have to plan succession. And Enzo Morescu, we believe the former Chelsea man, is in line to take over from Guardiola. you've written a story on the Times website today about some of the difficulties that City might face in terms of Chelsea's approach to that and some of the you know intricacies of the dealings of his departure from Chelsea and then taking over at City but just tell the listeners a little bit more about the plan from that side because we've mentioned the plan for Guardiola's departure the big farewell party trying to keep it under wraps but they've also had to put in place this succession and it's our understanding is it right that Enzo Morescu has kind of been the chosen one for a while now.

31:32Yeah, the fact of the matter is when Maresca left in January, left Chelsea in January, the story that was widely reported was that there had been this clash with the Chelsea hierarchy. And part of the reason that they clashed is because he had sought an improved contract based on the fact that he'd had this approach from Manchester City. It was a story that wasn't denied by either club or indeed Maresca or his people. It has been a given really since then that Maresca is the man that was being lined up to succeed Pep, which was another reason why all these pieces about Pep's departure have already been written because everyone expected, you know, the story that broke on Monday night, everyone's expected it for months and everyone's expected Maresca to be the successor.

32:26People have been talking within football about it being a done deal for some time and the City involvement was as we understand it back in January one of the catalysts for them saying well off you go then so yeah it's been it's been a done deal for months. And then just on the story that you and Peter Rutzler have written on the Times website today City though could be subject of a legal claim from Chelsea seeking some kind of compensation because of the nature of his departure and him then going in at City. Just tell the listeners a little bit more about that. Yes. Now, this could be something that is challenged by Manchester City and I did speak to Manchester City yesterday about this and they were sort of, you know, it's nothing to do with us kind of attitude, which is understandable because we know, we've all been around football long enough to know that it may not always be direct contact between the two parties.

33:25There may be intermediaries involved. You know, these people aren't stupid. They do know the rules. Chelsea feel quite aggrieved, understandably, that their season was derailed by Maresca's departure. You know, OK, he had started to drop points. I think they'd only won one game in seven games prior to his departure. But they had been flying high. They'd won the Club World Cup. They were second in the league prior to that slight dip in form. And it's gone horribly wrong for them ever since. Rossellor didn't work. They've now got Alonso, but they're looking at their season thinking that, you know, they started it as world champions and had great sort of hopes for challenging for titles this season.

34:12And it all went completely wrong. And it may be that they do indeed, that, you know, as we understand it, there is an appetite at Chelsea that if Mureska is unveiled in the coming days and weeks, that they will launch a legal claim and say, well, hang on a minute, that's our manager. He was our manager. We want compensation because we believe that this thing was agreed months ago when he was still under our employment. So we'll see how that plays out. We'll see if it is something that involves Chelsea having to go to the Premier League and calling for an investigation and making a formal complaint or whether it's just something that the two clubs sought out.

34:51But again, it's very hard to get any clarity from City on that because they won't even confirm at the moment that Pep's leaving. Yeah, really challenging. But Matt, we'll keep you up to date with all the latest goings on that story. Matt, it's almost strange for me not to mention another thing that has been hanging over Manchester City and the Premier League for so long, which is these 115 charges that are laid against the club. You know, cynics, maybe Manchester United fans would want me to ask you, well, hang on a minute, is Pep going because he knows something's coming? Is there any sense that we might get any news on those charges as well?

35:27Because obviously this is a seismic moment for Manchester City as a club, the departure of the great Pep Guardiola. But I'm not wrong and those fans are not wrong to point out that, hang on a minute, we're still waiting for that as well, aren't we? I think Martin Samuel makes a great point on our pages. Pep Guardiola, like the rest of us, doesn't know when these things are coming, when this verdict from this tribunal is coming. And the fact of the matter is, he chose to stay on a year when they could have come at any time in the last year. You know, I went on holiday 13 months ago, Easter last year, and I took my laptop because I was convinced it was going to break during that Easter break.

36:13and I don't think I'm telling tales out of school here. As I understand it, you know, senior figures at City who were also taking Easter breaks were literally booked on a flight every day back to Manchester from whichever destination they were on holiday because the club were fearful that it was going to break over Easter 2025. Right. It is now May 2026. now I you know I now think the likelihood is this this this is going to break in the next few weeks I can see myself being on the wrong side of the Atlantic at the World Cup when it comes and it will be a massive distraction for a few days and we'll have to drop everything and then get back to the football in the US we've been saying that I've literally honestly Tom for the last 13 months I've taken my laptop on every family holiday yeah because I've just been totally paranoid that that's going to be the time that this thing breaks.

37:11And while it's not going to be just me that it falls on, you know, we've got Martin Xavier and other reporters that will be on this story. It's just, it will be all hands on deck when it happens. But I think Martin's point, Martin Samuel's point today is that it's a bit unfair to say that Pep's going just before this breaks because he chose to stay for this season and it could have broken at any point in the last year. and he would have been there to face the music as it is, it's going to break after Pep has gone and that's just probably a fortunate situation for him, but not one that he's constructed in any way.

37:51That's just his good luck. Yeah, it's about the only thing missing from this season, I think, Matt, the 115 charges with the crazy nature of how the football season has played out. But as you mentioned there, Matt, Martin Ziegler and Martin Samuel will be giving you the latest news and reaction whenever that story does break on the Times website. Matt, I want to come back to finish on Pep. You've been in this industry for a long time. You covered Sir Alex Ferguson's reign in Manchester when he was at Manchester United. You've seen the rise of Jose Mourinho and other huge figures. Watching Pep Guardiola, what do you think his legacy is going to be in our game, in the Premier League, in English football?

38:29Oh, I think it'll be absolutely huge. I think, you know, I'm not a Terry Venables tactical genius, but I think what Pep has done is he's elevated the entertainment levels of football in this country. you know I watched those great Ferguson teams you know I covered the treble I was a Manchester correspondent when Manchester United won the treble and and they were brilliant and they were the entertainers the ultimate entertainers the way they attacked the way they played the game Giggs and Beckham on the flanks York and Cole up front you know they were they were a brilliant team to watch and the way they just kept going kept attacking and that was the nature of their of their victory in Barcelona.

39:18But, you know, I covered those two Champions League finals when Guardiola faced Ferguson in Rome and then at Wembley. And yes, look, I always have Harry Redknapp's words in the back of my head in an interview I once did with him where he just said, Matt, stop talking about tactics. It's about the players. And of course, Guardiola had a Barcelona team that had Xavi, Iniesta and Busquets in midfield, Messi up front, and then lots of other very, very good players around them. But they played a style of football that, you know, I was at the Football Writers' Dinner last night and Markham Carrick gave a very eloquent speech about Bruno Fernandes.

40:02But I just remember, you know, Carrick being made to look very ordinary by the way, you know, he was chasing shadows at Wembley that night. and just by the way that Guardiola's team's played the game. And I just think, as I say, he's elevated. He's elevated not just the entertainment, but the way the game is played. You know, 20 trophies in 10 years, it speaks for itself, but he was just as prolific at Barcelona. I think he won six trophies in one calendar year, in one year at Barcelona. You know, extraordinary. I think if he has one slight regret, it's that he only won the Champions League one.

40:42but as Ferguson discovered as well it's incredibly hard to win the Champions League and he was very fortunate let's be honest on both occasions to win the ones he did you know John Terry doesn't slip he doesn't win he doesn't win in 2008 and and and were it not for that incredible comeback in the dying minutes he doesn't win in 99 they totally deserve to win in 99 they were the best team in Europe that season um but but and they were massively hindered by the fact that Keane and Scholes were injured, were suspended. It's such a hard competition to win. And in that decade, just to win it once, I'm sure that will be the one regret that Guardiola has.

41:23But my word, you know, the football that his teams have played and the fact that he's regenerated. I think Ferguson's great achievement was always regenerating, was creating new teams. And Guardiola has done that every bit as impressively. a phenomenal footballing legacy for Pep Guardiola in the Premier League with Manchester City as Matt has already mentioned you can read Paul Hurst's brilliant long read on the Times website now picking out some of the amazing achievements and brilliant moments of Guardiola's time at City Matt we'll leave it there thank you very much for joining us you'll be back with us on the game podcast for a special World Cup preview show meeting the team who are going to be in the England camp you've got you, Johnny Northcroft and Hamza so we look forward to that thanks for joining us now and we'll speak to you next week Cheers Tom Now, I mentioned this huge week in football for this special show, but we haven't even covered Southampton being kicked out of the Championship Player Final.

42:18That's a developing story on the Times website now. And we've got Aston Villa in the Europa League Final tonight. But thankfully, we'll be back tomorrow for Thursday's show to cover all that and loads more. So we'll see you then.

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