Spurs and Forest sack the boss - will it work?

0:04Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. On today's show we'll be discussing all the fallout from a brutal 24 hours for Premier League managers. Thomas Frank and Sean Dyche were sacked by Tottenham Hotspur and Nottingham Forest respectively as both clubs slipped deeper into relegation troubles. We'll be asking if they deserve more time, who might replace them and what comes next for both clubs. Also on the show we'll be discussing the Times exclusive story which revealed that Thomas Tuchel is set to extend his contract as England manager beyond the World Cup and through to the Euros in 2028.

0:36Plus, we'll be running the rule over the Race for Europe and the relegation battle after a full slate of midweek fixtures. I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me in the studio today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea and Aston Villa striker and Times columnist, Tony Cascarino, and joining us down the line we have the Times' London-based football reporter with a focus on Spurs, Tom Alnott. Guys, good to have you. Gregor? Not been a quiet week, has it? No, never a quiet week, mate. Never quite Crazy Tom we'll come to you first dull sessions and bored players Frank was always wrong fit for adrenaline club like Spurs that's the kind of the subheading on your piece in the Times today you'll be pleased maybe that the boos are over after you know that was the soundtrack to your season so far isn't it what have you made this decision was it inevitable for you I think so Gregor you know I think the club were desperate to give Thomas Frank as much time as possible.

1:38They really wanted to sort of appear like serious, calm, measured owners. That was, you know, everything we heard in the last few months was that they wanted to back Thomas Frank and that they felt that the kind of the early bumps in the road were kind of expected almost, you know, with the squad, the signings, lack of leadership, and let's not forget all the upheaval at Spurs off the pitch. You know, Daniel Levy going, 13 heads of departments changing. You know, there are lots of mitigating factors and I think it's fair to say the club were very aware of that but equally performances have been really poor for a long time clearly the connection with the fans between Frank and the core supporters at the stadium but also the away fans as well as just not been there for a long time and I think ultimately probably what the trigger was for the for the ownership to be honest was that you know quite clearly Spurs are now very much in a relegation battle you know I think when it was sort of nine points, 10 points, you know, three or four weeks ago, it was kind of possible to make the argument, okay, you know, this is teething problems and we still think it's going to turn around and Frank had a lot of data which he liked to present to say that the performance it had were improving but ultimately, it got to the point where you couldn't really see where the next win was coming from, you know, even at home against, you know, and Spurs have got some pretty kind fixtures at home to come but it was the feeling in the ground, the feeling in the team looked like a team that was lost, if I'm honest and none of those matches that were coming up, they didn't look like they were going to win them.

3:02So I think they had to act before they got dragged into the bottom three. I mean, the atmosphere at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium has been pretty toxic for a while now, but did it kind of ramp up another level after the defeat to Newcastle Tuesday night? You're asking me to get out my boo-o-meter again, aren't you? Yeah, do it. Where was the needle? I mean, it was pretty high, I'd say. I'd put it on the Richter scale, sort of 4.8 out of 5 on Tuesday night. I mean, the boos were clearly there. I mean, that's just sort of standard, really. Boos at halftime, boos at full time. I guess the kind of the factors that really you sort of look for at Spurs to think that it's unusual, the kind of where it's directed specifically at Frank.

3:43And I think that's been the case now for a long time. And that's sort of worth kind of pointing out because actually earlier in the season, perhaps you remember when the fans were sort of booing Vicario and the players were sort of getting in the net quite a lot from the Spurs supporters. But actually in recent weeks, the fans have sort of pointedly been applauding the players. at that full time and booing Frank, you know, booing when he walks out, booing when he's in the centre circle, booing when he goes down the tunnel, singing you're getting sacked in the morning, singing Pochettino's name.

4:11It's been really clear, you know, and Vinay Van Kateshin was in the stands on Tuesday night. It's been really clear who the fans think the problem has been. And I guess, you know, when you think about this decision, that does feel like I've been sort of playing in my mind with the kind of comparison with Man Utd clearly and the uplift they've had since Carrick. And I do think that United sort of had, you know, four or five quite obvious boxes that Carrick could quite quickly tick, you know, put players in the right positions, play four at the back, et cetera, et cetera. I don't think there are that many, so many obvious kind of changes to make instantly at Spurs.

4:45You know, there are clear problems in terms of the injuries and the team. But the one thing you think that maybe will just turn around instantly is I think the fans will get behind the new manager, whoever that is, even if it's an interim. I think there'll just be a feeling at the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium of kind of relief, if you like, of an uplift that maybe the team will start to play freer, play more attacking football again, and that might just be enough to kind of pull them away from the relegation zone. Okay. Martin, your column in the Times today, the headline says, Frank wasn't the right man, but he had an unplayable hand.

5:20Yeah. Tell us a bit more about that. Well, the unplayable hand was what I wrote about on January the 6th, and I said that he will go because the board want to be liked. They've now got a new board of directors as such. They've got new owners, new people driving the ownership and they want to be liked. From the very start when they got rid of Daniel Levy on that day, more wins, more often and this sort of briefing, ridiculous briefing really as if Daniel Levy was in some way going rogue for 20 years and wasn't running the club as the club were just desperate almost to spend money and Daniel kept stopping them.

6:03He's preposterous. But you could tell that they wanted to be popular. The results aren't making them popular. The stadium doesn't make them popular. They've got one easy win. The easiest win of Tottenham's season is sack the manager and that will make the fans happy if you get rid of the manager. so that was all they had left to do it was David Plea who said to me many many years ago if the fans chan't sack the manager they think about sacking the manager if the fans chan't sack the ball they definitely sack the manager and that was Totten so it's quite a dangerous place to go I mean not necessarily Pochettino because he walks in there with love of the common people and that would be a great move for the board because it would make them popular and that seems to be what they want.

6:56That would be fine, but it's quite a dangerous place for other managers to go because if the board are just going to do whatever they think the fans want them to do, then you've got no chance because there's nothing more volatile than fan opinion because it goes from one week to the next in terms of who's popular and who's not. Cass, why do you think the fans turned against him so, seemed to turn against him so easily? I mean, clearly results are the biggest factor, but there seemed to be something more in it than that. Yeah, I mean, the things I felt, I've been a couple of times this year and I felt that players have got a lot to own up here on as well because there was too many of this Van Der Ven, not shaking his hand, Jed Spence doing the same.

7:46You've had criticism from others, Romero. You've had Vicario when he's done a terrible pass out from the back. He's waving his arms. And you look at Porro. You just have so many. Richarlison. I said on radio about two months ago, if you said to me, who's the worst group of players I'd want to manage in the Premier League? I'll just throw out go Spurs. Now, I'm sure they've got some great characters in there as well. But from the outside, I look at the group. And this is one of the big issues. when you go to a bigger club, people will question whether you're fit enough or as the weight of the shirt, you know, is it taking its toll on you?

8:25Thomas Frank has gone there where he was at a football club where every player would run through a brick wall for him. Okay? Run through a brick wall. This lot wouldn't run through a paper bag. They wouldn't. I just don't. And I'm not giving him an easy out here because quite clearly when you're reading and as Tom had written in his piece this morning that, you know, training sessions were boring, long. Me and you, Gregor, have been with managers that training sessions on a Friday and you're sitting there with Graham Taylor and you're like, or say, sitting there out on the pitch and it's freezing cold and doing an hour and a half on a...

8:57But it worked. You know, the set piece would work on the Saturday and whether it was conceding a goal or not conceding a goal, whether it was scoring a goal, that's part and parcel football. I'm sorry, but you're not meant to have these fantastic sessions every day that you love. You can, you've got to have that. But I think Thomas, as a manager, did fail on a lot of fronts. And I just... When I look back, and it's easy to say, because people have become flavour of the month. He became flavour of the month. He got the job. Okay? Now, after not so long a time, there were some results along the way.

9:35Earlier in the season, the Chelsea home defeat and the way they played. And Tuesday night was a perfect example. after 15 well 16 minutes Tottenham at home had conceded eight corners after 16 minutes now they defended them by the way very well which was you know not the case of last season but these are sort of things that were wild fans they don't feel like they're they're watching a team that okay the Tottenham way of attacking teams and and I just I think I think Thomas eventually got really really lost and and the way he handled romario you can't let players he's captain or not just speak out about what he thinks is wrong with the club particularly not tony particularly not if you're saying we only had 11 players available for whatever the match was man city or whatever and then what the man does is get himself sent off so now you've got 10 players available for that match so thanks very much for that one mate and he's now not available until the middle of March he's not in any cup competitions they've got nothing to take you know they're not playing Wickham Wanderers or anything like that you know so right now it's only league matches they've got so you see Romero again on March 15th I think it is he's out of the North London derby he's out of whoever the new manager is he's out of his first three games and you just look at that and think well that's not a captain that's not a leader you know you've got to take some responsibility there.

11:07Go on, Tom. I mean, I was going to say, I mean, to be fair, I mean, I think the club and I think Frank, you know, identified that problem. I mean, they tried to sign Colin Gallagher. I mean, they signed Colin Gallagher, obviously, in January. They wanted to sign Andy Robertson. They very much have diagnosed the fact that this squad needs better characters, better leaders. The other flip side of that, I think, is that we can ask, does Thomas Frank kind of have that big club energy about him as a manager? You know, does he have that kind of aura and that kind of authority that you need, I think, to maybe bring players like Romero into line.

11:41You know, I mean, part of the thing here is that Frank was appointed because of his record at Brentford of creating a culture, you know, so it seems to me slightly sort of hypocritical then after seven or eight months to say, I can't deal with this because the players are, you know, acting up in the dressing room. That was his job. You know, his job was to come in and to promote the kind of ethos that he created at Brentford. so I mean I mean you know you hear stories at Spurs and people speak very highly of Frank as a person none of us would be surprised about that but they say you know in the first couple of weeks he'd come up to me and say I want you to tell me three things you think about me as a manager good things three things and three bad things as well I'll come back to you in a week and you and I want to know everything about what you think about me because he's that kind of guy he's promoting that kind of sense of equality that sense of sense of togetherness but do you think Antonio Conte does that?

12:29Do you think Jose Mourinho does that? You know, it makes me think like, was Frank always one of those managers who just sort of belongs, unfortunately, to sort of a place like Brentford, a middle-class kind of team where that sort of thing goes down very well? Ultimately, a big club like Spurs, when you're dealing with players like Romero, where you're dealing with players like Xavi Simons, you have to show them the way. You know, you have to have the kind of leadership qualities, I think, to have a slightly firmer hand. And I think that was part of it as well. Well, Tom, I'd add to that. Me and Martin were talking off air about this.

12:58And Glasner has spoken in the paper today about having no leaders. And he's lost, obviously, Mark Gay, who went to Man City. But there's a general theme, isn't there, in the game. A number of clubs don't seem, or the managers, doesn't seem to think he's got the leaders required at that club. And Tottenham is one of them. Because I can't understand how Thomas Frank, apart from it being a smaller club, but still every... I don't remember any Brentford player openly speaking out about the manager or tactics or, you know, just generally, is the training boring? I've never heard one word of that up until today.

13:34Well, and also, I mean, you know, we look at the best managers. We look at arguably manager of the season, Unai Emery. Spends hours, you know, going over video analysis session, hours on structure and shape. You know what I mean? If it's going well, then everyone says you're a genius, right? And if you're not, then they say the training sessions are boring. That's the fundamental part of it. But I think also linked to that idea of Frank's kind of his personality, you can't ignore the fact that it's almost like a demonstration of that in their performances on the pitch. You know, that they were always reacting to the other team, you know, always kind of preparing for the opponents.

14:06And that's fine. You know, there are some teams that Spurs have to play against, you know, and they have to do that, of course. But if they're playing at home against Burnley, home against Wolves, you know, these kind of games, Spurs were watching. I mean, Spurs fans are watching the team and they didn't have the ball, you know, for the first half. And they're sort of thinking, why are we playing in a style that looks like we're kind of trying to adapt to the opposition? And part of the problem with that, by the way, with Frank, one thing you hear is that he found it incredibly frustrating, the lack of time he had in the training ground.

14:32You know, the kind of the special operations that he loved to kind of devise at Brentford, where he'd be playing against Man City and playing against Arsenal and come up with a brilliant tactical plan where he'd change the shape, change the system. Just didn't have time to do that at Tottenham. with the Champions League commitments, with the Cup games. It was all about recovery, all about travel. And ultimately, that's probably where it lends itself to having a plan A. This is our plan. This is what we do, no matter who we're playing against. But you don't. You don't have time. You don't have time if you're in a league club because you're in the Champions League.

15:00It's part of the step up. And it's eight matches. There's eight Champions League matches and you win them. And you don't get knocked out of the League Cup early if you're smart. And you don't get knocked out of the FA Cup early if you're smart. and so you've never got enough time you've never got enough time I mean without a doubt part of the problem with Thomas Frank is he came from a culture where they're outmatched most weeks Brentford not actually in terms of what their results have been because they're a match for a lot of teams but they're outmatched in terms of the quality of the players so a lot of what he did at Brentford was looking at the opposition right what what can we do to impact them a lot of tottenham you you you've got to make the weather yourself it's not about reacting necessarily to what the opposition did and that's what tottenham looked like this season as well it looked as if it was too much there was too much attention paid to how do we stop them how do you know it was too reactive and and it wasn't proactive there's Postacoglu and there's Thomas Frank and there was surely something in the middle well that's where we must go next Tom what are you hearing where Tottenham likely to turn next another interim another big club with an interim manager until they can wait for Pochettino in the summer is that the likeliest outcome I was just going to say on and it always felt like Frank was kind of an overcorrection it's that thing you see so often you go from a manager who basically refused to prepare for the opposition to a manager who basically does nothing but and Martin's absolutely right you know there is a middle ground there i mean i think the problem tottenham have right is if they were kind of floating about in the middle of the table they could put in an interim manager like they have done you know in the last two or three seasons and say okay like the results will be mixed but doesn't really matter we wait until the summer what they have to do now is they try and make two appointments all in one aren't they they're trying to get one guy right now who can keep them up who basically need he needs to get the points and they also want to appoint a guy you know who's going to take them forward for the next three or four years so can they find the kind the guy in the middle of the Venn diagram who does both.

17:04For example, I mean, we know that longer term targets like Pochettino, Iraiola, De Zerbi will probably want to take over in the summer. The only one of those three who's available right now after leaving Marseille is De Zerbi. I keep hearing his name, but he was the pick of Fabio Paratici, the sporting director who left at the earlier this month. So I mean, are they still going to go back to that guy who was recommended by the previous sporting director? Don't know. In terms of interim appointments, if you can't get someone who's kind of a longer term pick, it's obviously a much riskier play. You might go with Johnny Heitinger, for example, who's kind of the man in position.

17:42Talk of someone like Robbie Keane, but does Robbie Keane want to give up a good job at Ferencvaros where they're doing really well to come and do a short-term job at Spurs? It's difficult. And as I say, it's about balancing, isn't it, the risk? Because they can't just kind of float around for a few weeks and wait for Pochettino in the summer. They have to get points now. In the results business, you see. The problem now is they're not in the interim business. Manchester United can have an interim. I know that's not Carrick's title, but a lot of people are looking at him thinking, oh, it's just this interim appointment.

18:18Well, Manchester United can have that because they're trying to get in the Champions League. You're finishing top five if you get into Europe or whatever. Nothing can go disastrously wrong. at Manchester United. It can go wrong. Don't get me. You know, it can definitely go wrong. It can't go disastrously wrong. It can go disastrously wrong at Tottenham. They could get relegated. If they were to get relegated, it's disastrous. I mean, it is absolutely, you know, for a club that three years ago, four years ago, had pretensions to be in a Super League. I mean, a bit of a Super League of one as it is now, but pretensions to be in a Super League to end up in the championship.

19:01I mean, it's unthinkable that that could happen. You know, the club was built, the infrastructure was to be in that, wasn't it? Yeah. The stadium. Absolutely. That's what he did. They didn't get in it by what they'd won. They got in it because they were clubbing. The training ground was magnificent. The ground is incredible. Absolutely. Well, fascinating to see where Tottenham turn next and another club looking for a new manager, looking for their fourth manager. now of the season. A record. A record fourth. If it's full-time, it's a record. Certainly in the Premier League, no one's ever had four full-time managers in one season before.

19:40You were checking earlier this morning. I checked Barnett. One team, unsurprisingly, in the Championship as well. Barnett had it in 2017-18, I want to say, in League Two. And Watford, no one will be surprised to know, had four managers in 37 days once in the championship, although one stepped down due to ill health. But, you know, you could argue managing Watford will do that to you. But yeah, so Watford managed to get rid of four managers in 37 days. Well, Sean Dyche lasted 114 days. Ange Postacoglu before him, 39 days. No, no, 23 days of this season. Watford actually could have got through 12 managers in that time if they'd have kept going at that rate.

20:24Is there something wrong with the game? I mean, seriously. You know, we talk about, I always say, I don't want too much regulation, but I do feel like there should be some sort of system in place where you go, you're allowed to sack once in one season. I just hate this idea of twos and threes and now we're getting to four. What, are we going to get into one day like subs were and we're going to have seven managers in a season? I think we're going back to the question you asked, where did the threes, the game's gone, come from? We really are in the game's gone stage here. Is there a point of saying to clubs, Premier League, you can make one sack in from a manager?

21:03You can certainly make that rule, but it's a difficult one, isn't it? Because you've got to let clubs, or you've got to try to let clubs run their own businesses, make their own mistakes. You know, you've got to have that freedom. Well, okay, you can't sack players, Martin, unless they obviously don't say it's seriously wrong at the club. But a player signs a contract. Players, managers, they're both different. The contract of a player to a manager is different. A manager can walk out of a football club as long as someone pays the fee that, you know, as a judge... Tony, I'm not... I just don't get where we go from here.

21:39I'm not disagreeing with you as such. I'm just thinking of, well, why isn't there this rule? And that's the only reason I can presume that you won't get the clubs to vote for it because the clubs will always want to run the own business and sack who they want. And if they need to sack four managers or three managers in one season. We will do. We'll probably will do it. I'll just say, back to Sean Dyche. Let's see how to show Sean Dyche. Ian Whittle reported in the Times that Evangelos Maranakis, the Forest owner, acted after canvassing the players in the wake of Forest goal withdrawal with Wolves on Wednesday night, not for the first time.

22:12And he's now in talks with the former Wolves boss, Vitor Pereira. Cass, just focusing on isolation on Sean Dyche. I mean, he started well. He got seven wins from his first 12 games. He stabilised the club. we took them out of the relegation zone, looked like they were going to climb the table and then two wins in the last 10 league games plus an exit to Wrexham and FA Cup really changed the mood very quickly. I mean, what do you make of this? Well, I would have said after watching the game on Friday night at Leeds that that didn't look like a foolish performance. They were really poor. Leeds ripped them apart.

22:44And I think the owners straight away got in his head, right, I'm going to make a change. And if it's any indifferent performance after that, and look, you can look at the numbers last night. I mean, they've had 35 shots last night, not converted one. The way Sean speaks, you can tell that, you know, it's no surprise to him what's happened. He had a way of playing and he always has done. His teams are always difficult to play against and they always offer a threat. Look, Chris Wood was magnificent for them last year. They didn't really fly. He would have loved to have had Chris Wood this year. How long has he been out now?

23:24Four months? Most of the season. Yeah, four months, five months. So he's obviously had an effect of losing the type of centre-forward he would have wanted. But also defensively, they've become frail. So it's strange how it's panned out. But it's not been a run that's been that desperate. You know, we've seen other teams, like obviously the Wolves is an example of how dreadful a run they've had and other teams. So it's a weird one how it's panned out. I'm I'm surprised they've done it still I still think that Sean would have had as good chance as anybody of keeping them out of their championship it's football it's like we said earlier that's kind of the question Martin I mean there's you know there's often been this joke you know who better to sign to hire than Sean Dyche and they've just got rid of the guy that they hired to they've tried everything well they say they've tried everything they've tried everything apart from actually keeping the manager but they you know if you think of the three managers that they've had now they're very sort of distinctive you know ang postocoglu to sean dyche is is some some leap it really is and it doesn't greatly suggest um coherence in terms of the strategy you can't really see uh oh this is our vision well where's the vision from postocoglu to sean dyche that doesn't make any sense there's no vision there is there there's just a reaction to circumstances is Pariah one can only presume what they want from Pariah what he brought to Wolves at the start at the start his first game against Spurs we were there weren't we he also worked for Olympiacos which is Maranacos' other club but you think that's what they want they want this lift because they can feel West Ham come in West Ham look a much better team now post transfer window post letting Nuno have one of his own coaching staff as part of his team.

25:20They look a much better team now. So they're in real danger. Plus they've got the complications of European football as well, which teams around them haven't necessarily got. West Ham certainly haven't got. I can see why they're worried. It's not one of those where you go, oh, you just walk over a cliff ledge, be my guest. I can see why they're worried. I just can't see where you get I mean three managers in a season statistically you tend to go down there's been a couple that stayed up I think Portsmouth managed to stay up and one other managed to stay up but three managers in a season you tend to go down four I don't know maybe four is the magic number maybe that's what you need to do maybe we're not sacking enough managers maybe if you've got four in through the season you know it brings a new meaning the manager of the month award, doesn't it, really?

26:16Well, it wasn't Dice that in January. Was he on the final panel? And he's gone. What about the broader sort of landscape before us, though? I mean, there's now three managers being booed. Other teams certainly have been booed in one season. And in the same season, Evangelos Maranakis, the guy who's creating all this turmoil, has had his name sung. Like, it's a strange dynamic. Yeah, but there was one big reason for that, isn't there? The club have come out of the championship, spent money, like Mike has said, but they've come out of the championship after being in there for an eternity, it felt.

26:49So they see him as, yeah, he hires, he fires. He does what he wants. Yeah, and we've been on this journey with him. It's rock and roll in some ways. Might have a dangerous, catastrophic ending, though. If they went down, I think you might see an air of change at Forest, because it is just, I don't get it. To me, that's not, you know, The first thing you would want in some degree is stability at a football club, for heaven's sake. Come on. But what you say about the fans, and that is a really dangerous road to go down. It goes back to us talking about Tottenham earlier. In the piece I wrote about Tottenham, I quoted a situation at Sheffield United in 2008 when Kevin McCabe sacked Brian Robson.

27:33And he issued this statement saying, what a wonderful job Brian Robson had been doing. and it was such a shame that the fans had made it impossible, you know, that they couldn't see what a great job and what great things for Sheffield United he was doing and Brian Kidd was doing. And I remember thinking and writing at the time, well, why didn't you keep him then? It's up to you to be bold then and keep him. Because the other thing that has happened here, you've got two groups of fans that now think, if we shout loud enough, we can get rid of the manager. That's the dangerous thing at Nottingham Forest now.

28:12If they've booed one manager and he's got the bullet, and they've booed a second manager and he's got the bullet, booed a third manager and he's got the bullet, well, we can all see where it ends with the fourth manager, really. And it's with the fans thinking, if they don't like it, they can get rid of this guy as well. And the irony is with Sean Dyche, when everyone's saying he's one of our own and all of that, Sean Dyche was a Nottingham Forest man I mean you know I don't count anymore he was genuinely a Nottingham Forest man he wasn't good enough to actually make his career at Nottingham Forest but he was a Nottingham Forest man he was coming home ostensibly you look at the league on the Premier League you could probably go how many fan bases are happy with their manager we were talking about it's hilarious it's hardly any it's bizarre like you know there must be three quarters of the league with their fans exactly and not happy get him out yeah well you get booed in now this is a new thing I got booed in at Chelsea when I joined as a player yeah there you go people used to get booed out people used to get booed out now they get booed in Gary Mixon got booed in hadn't kicked the ball yet I did that I scored on my debut honestly I got booed in at Crystal Palace at home and they announced my name and all the Chelsea fans were booed I haven't even kicked the ball yet but it's it is this it's a ridiculous situation really when you think about it that you know Nuno it was there seemed to be political differences and what happened with Ange you can tell with the results that it was but this one there was a sign of progress here you know it evaporated but that could be funnily enough because this constant churn of players that you've got at Nottingham Forest does make it hard to get a sense of balance There might be some players there who everyone thinks are better than they are.

30:06£100 million for Elliot Anderson at the moment. You know, he seems right, Elliot Anderson. He seems a good player. He doesn't seem like£100 million to me at the moment because if you've got a£100 million player in your team, you're not getting the Nottingham Forest results because Matt Letizia, you know, was the equivalent of a£100 million player in his day. Kept Southampton up. you know, Declan Weiss kept West Ham up. You look at the trouble West Ham have got themselves into since Declan Weiss has gone. Declan Weiss was a£100 million player. You know, there's some players there that, you know, look as if their influence, shall we say, has been overstated.

30:48Well, Forrest, three points above West Ham in the drop zone. We'll have a closer look at the relegation zone in the second half of the show, and we'll also talk about Thomas Tuchel's extension to his contract, it seems, in the future. We'll be back after the break.

31:14Welcome back to the Game Podcast from the Times. I'm Gregor Robertson with Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino. Tom Olnett has had to leave us. He's got lots to work on in this Spurs story and who might be the next manager in line. Football moves fast in terms of the Thomas Tuchel story as well. Well, since we've been on the air, the Times story on the website has been updated to say that Thomas Tuchel has signed the New Deal to stay as the England head coach until 2028. The German is understood to be excited by the prospect of leading England beyond this summer's World Cup and towards the opportunity of a home European Championships finals in 2028.

31:48Martin, what do you make of it? Clearly, you've had a clear opinion about Thomas Tuchel's appointment in the first place because he's not English. Yeah, absolutely. but what do you make of this decision based on the potential uncertainty there could have been going into a World Cup when there's so many big jobs coming available and what that might have done to disrupt England's sort of preparations for the World Cup? Well, I think it shows that Mark Bullingham is more scared of not having an idea on his head than he is of England failing at the World Cup because, I mean, we have done this before.

32:22We did it with Fabio, gave him a new contract before the 2010 World Cup. Ericsson we were fritting to it because we thought he was going to leave and go to Chelsea Is that not potentially unsettling before a major tournament? Yeah it is and you know they've made mistakes in the past I mean Terry Venables in 96 wanted a new contract and they wouldn't give him a new contract and they wouldn't give him a contract extension and they said well you haven't won a competitive game for us yeah and so we want to see how you go in the tournament and Terry Turnham said I'd go to do auditions and and that was the end of that and and he also pointed out to them that the bloke that they got to replace him he wouldn't have won a game in a competitive tournament for them either which was absolutely true which is Glenn Hoddle so look it's a very difficult it's a very difficult thing but it we have moved rather a long way away from this is a man to win us the World Cup.

33:26This is what he is here for. He is going to win. Because at the moment, Thomas Tuchel has beaten, the best team he's beaten is ranked number 39 in the world. Hasn't beaten a team inside the top 39 yet. We've played one team inside the top 39, Senegal, they beat us 3-1. So, look, he's done a great job in the qualifying and if that's what they want to do, everyone knows what I think about a country like England nicking someone from someone else's process and system it's meant to be the best of yours against the best of theirs but I've said it I've talked to one blue in the face all we've got to do is beat Albania and everyone wants to wave their flag and no one wants to actually be at all interested in things like process and what international football is meant to be about so I'll leave that one but we haven't actually played anyone yet and I think we've got a good team and there's been progress despite what you're saying it's true there's been progress but you know there's been progress but we did get to the European Championship final our last manager his last game was the European Championship final so there's been progress but there's been nothing like that I've got some quotes from Tuchel here I'm very happy and proud to extend my time with England it's no secret to anyone that I've loved every minute so far of working with my players and coaches and I cannot wait to lead the team to the World Cup.

34:55It's an incredible opportunity and we're going to do our very best to make the country proud. He also said, I did not hesitate when asked to continue in this dream job. Euro 2020 will be a very special tournament and as a coach, there's nothing more you want than to compete with the very best on the biggest possible stage. Like the FA will view this as a coup really because as I say, this is going to be, it looks like it's going to be a pretty frenzied sort of managerial market in the coming months. maybe Real Madrid some big clubs in the Premier League and Thomas Tuchel is a coach of big you know enormous stature and he'll be linked with a lot of jobs so do you see the logic despite what Martin's saying there well we hasn't history taught us enough over the past of you know like if you don't make a decision say they don't make a decision it gets the end of the World Cup and he's won it and then suddenly Real Madrid say he's our next manager that wouldn't matter so much if they won it yeah okay yeah I know do you know what I mean but I think it's, look, one thing I would say on this is that if you look at the numbers of managers that go to World Cups or European Championships, there's like nearly two-thirds of them lose their job after the tournament.

36:01You know, and that's including this one. You know, there's 48 teams. I'm pretty sure more than half won't have a job afterwards. And I am a person that thinks, you know, just play, do the tournament. And if it goes really well, offer them the crown jewels to stay on. if they really believe that he's the man to get, you know, like France did in 98 and then went on to 2000 World Cup, sorry, the Euros and won that. You know, if they think they've got that type of manager, I get it. I mean, it's the teams that are there are under the same problems. You know, Ancelotti is a top manager in club football, even higher than Thomas Tuchel.

36:44He's got Brazil. if he doesn't win the tournament he's gone I guarantee you that Brazil will change their manager so if you're looking at England and England haven't got the same history as what Brazil have got in World Cups so it's a really weird set of circumstances maybe they're just thinking look, stability a lot of the players are happy with him I'm sure because players would have their say that they're delighted and they really feel they've grown as a team and they feel ultra positive about going into this World Cup in the States and that might have you know the FA might look at it and go hey this is a really good vibe at the moment we want to continue this with Thomas but that can change in one tournament well you can keep up with the latest in that story on the Times website Thomas Tuchel was at the London Stadium on Tuesday possibly to be running the eye over Kobe Meno maybe Luke Shaw maybe Harry Maguire I was at this game so close for West Ham Martin so close to a precious three points Benjamin Sesko's 96th minute equaliser.

37:46No, I was there. You were there as well, okay. Tough one to take for West Ham. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it was. It was, it was. But they're getting better. There was a point after the 3-0 against Wolves last month where he just looked at that and thought, well, we'll be lucky if we're not bottom. I mean, Rob Edwards might turn this around for Wolves and get a few points in the second half of the season. and you could not see where West Ham's next win was going to come from. And then they played Queen's Park Rangers. I think it's always interesting with the FA Cup because so many people talk it down or whatever.

38:25It wasn't the greatest performance by any stretch of the imagination. West Ham versus Queen's Park Rangers needed extra time to beat QPR. But they beat QPR. And since then, it's amazing what one win can do even if it's against Queen's Park Rangers. is it five of the last six they've won an old comp yeah yeah yeah it's yeah is there an argument on that Gregor is there a bit of an argument of you know you can't carry a player I don't think in the Premier League you know a player yeah you look at sometimes the effects but it's not only him not playing but there was a clear indication to me watching the game that there was a massive driving energy in the forward areas when I'm watching Somerville, not play as a left winger, but come more inside.

39:12He's more direct. And he's facing the goal a lot more often. And his goals in, and Bowen will do it all day long. And, and, you know, they've just, it felt like a different energy in Western. What also makes a difference, Kaz, is that, if you're Thomas Suchek, and you, you know, you're struggling your legs, you know, he, you know, he was never the fastest guy. And now, you know, he's, he's advancing in his career. his legs are gone you can really do without your playmaker keep passing the opposition so that you're constantly out of position having to try and get back or whatever if you haven't got the legs and Pacquiao gave the ball away an awful lot an awful lot and every now and then there'd be a pass that nobody else could hit without a doubt by him but West Ham look a lot more balanced now they really do Fernandes and you know I think it matters that Nuno's got one of his backroom staff in there.

40:09I mentioned it earlier. I think that makes a big difference. West Ham have improved a lot since then. Well, they're going to make a... Look, I'm not saying they'll stay up, but they could make a fight. But let's talk about that. Because it's... I mean, the reason Forrest and Spurs have rolled the dice is because of the René Sons of West Ham. They're now actually... If they'd held on to beat Manchester United, they would have equaled the record for the best points tally by an 18th place side at this stage of a 38-game campaign. Right, OK. As it is, it's still 24, but it's the best since 2019-20.

40:40So we could actually be looking at quite a high tally. For a number of years, it's been really low. It's dipped, it's continued to fall. West Ham think they'll need, West Ham think they could need as many as 40 points to stay up. Okay, so in that context, you've got Leeds obviously came back and fought back and they've been excellent recently to get a draw against Chelsea. Look at the state of Forest and Spurs. What's your predictions? I know, I'm sorry, Tom's not here. I'm in the chair I've got to ask you what's your predictions? Well my prediction is always you know the bottom three will go down usually but look I've got a punch of chance now West Ham you know because look it's very easy well what's your prediction but we don't know who Tottenham's manager is we don't know who Nottingham Forest's manager is you don't know what the hell's going to happen at those two clubs Forest's next manager could be a genius could get an amazing is in bounds could first next manager could be a complete bust you've got no idea you've got no idea what's going to happen at Tottenham could be Deserby you know could be I don't know Deserby with a magic roundabout I mean it's you've got no idea what is going to you know the only thing that you do know is there's no transfer window anymore so whatever you've got you're stuck with which means Tottenham are stuck with this injury problem that they've got West Ham are stuck with a squad that's got weaknesses in certain areas.

42:10There's not a prolific goal scorer in the team. But there's definitely improvement. Well, there's an energy at West Ham. And that has happened to Leeds as well. You can see it watching Leeds. You know, they may be, OK, just again, they've got, well, they're on 30 now, aren't they, points? But you watch Leeds and there's an energy. And that's the energy that Sunderland have had during the season. And West Ham have got it now. Now, I can remember, Martin will know better than me on this, because was it the Tevis time when West Ham stayed up, when they went on an amazing run? Yeah, they did. They won at Old Trafford in the running.

42:43No, they won at Old Trafford on the last day of the season. A long time, Zamora, wasn't it Zamora that particular time? Yeah, it was. I remember that West Ham team. They were doomed. They were gone. And then suddenly, towards the end of the season, they found that energy. Because if you lose it, and Forrest have lost that energy, it was quite evident on Friday night, as we talked about earlier, against Leeds. if you lose your energy and Spurs haven't had much of it all season to be fair and the stadium was fine the other night it was good the stadium was good you see and that makes that makes a big deal and one of the things you look at and you do really wonder that it was such a disappointment not to get over the line at the end you think has that knocked the stuffing out of everybody is that does it now dip because they've but then they're playing Burton Albion on Saturday morning now if they can beat Burton Albion and let's be fair they should be out of the beat but now well then you're back to winning again and then it's Bournemouth I think next or whatever You're talking about teams picking up energy Brighton have won 1-13 Lost Aston Villa Palace obviously in a rut 2-0 up Jorgen Strand-Larsen scored his first two goals for the club and then Burnley struck three times in seven minutes and got a surprise win there How far up are we going?

43:54Do you think they could be dragged into it? Well Brighton's I mean I don't think any of us would have envisaged that Brighton would have gone on such a disastrous run because I don't get how Minter's not in the team. Because when I've watched him and watched him and how direct he can be, Matoma's gone a little bit off the boil. Danny Welbeck has not got the goals he got in the early part of the season. It feels like a lot hasn't gone right at Brighton for some bizarre reason. I can't believe that they would go down. I still think it's too much. No, nor can I. But they're always, you know, I can remember when I wrote a number of years back that Brighton will go down in the next five years or whatever.

44:35It could be that Brighton will go down. And which, you know, at the time they were absolutely flying. But the one group of people that didn't dispute it at all were Brighton, the Brighton executive or whatever, because they always knew where they were, that they were a selling club, that, you know, so you're vulnerable to... A bad window. A bad window, a bad window, a bad run of injuries. And a bad window and a bad run of injuries, and you're writing it. And they knew that. And, you know, there was no malice in what I was writing. I was just trying to point out the reality of life outside of it.

45:16And that's why it's such an achievement what Spurs have managed to do this season. Because, really, I mean, to be able to take a club with that sort of stadium and squad and resources and turn them into relegation candidates, I mean, that really does take some doing. I mean, you've got to be special. You know, you can't just be, you know, you're just a normal, you know, us three, you know, could take Tottenham and, you know, probably get them comfortably mid-table or whatever. I mean, so to do this, this is a hell of an achievement. Well done. If you were to nail your colours to the mast tone, what's your three then to go down?

45:52Well, I said West Ham at the start of the season. I thought they would go. I do see an energy gives them a chance but that's still got that gap they've still got that gap and that is you know and that can change you go on not winning in two or three games over the next and you could find yourself seven points nine points behind and that's a massive danger for West Ham they're going to have to get European for me still sort of European form to stay up without a doubt and I've seen a lot of good things but I would still say they're definitely for me in the bottom three if they lose anything. If they lose any of that energy that I've mentioned about, they'll go.

46:33Just onto Manchester United now in this game as well. I mean, you know, they've almost talked about kind of, you know, reacquainting themselves with so many traditions about the way the club played and stuff. I was disappointed with you at United. They were poor. First half, first half, it's one of those where you're watching it and you're thinking, I don't want to tempt fight. I can't tempt fight. I don't want to tempt fight and turn around to the person next to me and go, Manchester United have done absolutely sod all here, haven't they? Because as soon as you say that, you know, top right hand corner.

47:02So I didn't say anything, but the first half I was so disappointed with the United. There's a good game plan by Nunori, it was kind of compact with a counter punch. But they still seem to suddenly have reacquainted themselves with going to the very end and finding a goal. You think about Cunha's 87th minute winner against Arsenal, you think about Sesco's winner against Fulham, I think that was into injury time and this one in 96 minutes where does that come from Tom? Sorry I was going to say they had a little bit of that if you remember under Ten Hag Ten Hag's team you know one everyone you know because it wasn't like a Ferguson type thing where it was when it was Fergie it was Manchester United they're exceptional can they score they always score when it was Ten Hag it was always what a lucky sod he is can you believe they've just scored in the last minute again jeez but anyway I've always had this thing Gregor that I always count how many bodies teams get in box in the 18 yard box I always count them so if I see a team and their goal ratio is good and I'll immediately turn to someone and say they've got five players in the 18 yard box and that's what Manchester United by the end of the game started to get more numbers in the 18 yard box you saw Casemiro getting on the end of a cross nearly scored you know and joining Fernandes joining in there so I think if you ever want to look at goals and regular, the worst teams that don't get goals is when you see the ball go in and there's a striker on his own up against two or maybe three defenders and you're thinking, what chance has he got to score?

48:33You know, and I just think bodies getting into areas that makes other defenders think about who to pick up, where to go to Gregor, you're a fullback you would know sometimes where certain players you'd go, he's making a run, I've got to go with him but with that, there might be a midfielder running in behind him so you've got to get and they by the end of the game certainly in the second half they were way better but by the end of the game the numbers and you'd expect it anyway because they were losing the game but bodies getting in the 18 yard box gives you a chance of scoring if you don't get them you score way less goals they nearly scored about a minute before didn't they they had a chance it was just wide at the far post it was the header yeah when you read when you read match reports you can always tell the part of the game in match reports I'm not talking about your match report I'm not but you can always tell the part of the game having done the job yourself where everyone's writing everyone's writing and no one's actually because because it's those sort of go when it was like Manchester United did very little in the second half and you're thinking no no they nearly won the game like two or three times although West Ham had three breaks as well and I bet a lot of people missed that the one with Sculls the one where Sculls tries to put Callum Wilson in he's offside he should have just gone on his own but that's inexperienced as a kid but he should have just gone on his own even if you run it into the corner just go on your own he had a turbo in him at Callum Wilson didn't he yeah turbo to get ahead took the parachute off absolutely but you know but you could tell because in that last five minutes United you know were throwing the kitchen sink at just finally the other end of the table win for Manchester City against Fulham 3-0 applies a bit of pressure on Arsenal before they travelled to Brentford on Thursday night but the European place I mean Villa ground out a win Manchester United found a way to get a point Chelsea oh my god Cole Palmer's miss do you think he's picked his jaw up from the floor yet I've never seen a player just kind of look so stunned and shocked by a miss I think that whole stadium was could not believe I mean look if you're watching it I mean I try to think of my worst miss I'd ever done there's a fury there but But even to that standard, it's literally underneath the goal, isn't it?

50:52Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's so hard to miss. Yeah, absolutely. And a win for Liverpool at Sunderland, ground that one out. What do we make of the race for the top four or five, as it may be as well now? I mean, you've got Liverpool in 42 points in sixth, Chelsea two points ahead of them, United a point ahead of that. Still a five-point gap to Villa. How do we see that shaping up? They're going to be a big team disappointed. Well, we're on 12 games left, aren't we now? so 12 games left there's still 36 points available Liverpool have been a strange one they're in and out of form during games sometimes I'm not quite sure what they're going to be by the end of the season then you look Man Utd certainly Man Utd certainly form has been a real uplift to them Chelsea are probably the side I would say that I've never ever seen a team that so often never feels like it's a 70-plus minute side.

51:49They feel like for a moment in games, they're brilliant. They can just turn it on, and then suddenly the game can get lost from them. They've done that a lot. Aren't they the next ones after? I mean, West Ham have given up more points from winning positions than any team in the Premier League. I think it's 20 points. But the next one after that is Chelsea, which is... So you look at West Ham being top of that, and you're thinking, yeah, well, you can exceed that because they're right down the bottom. yeah they're bottom end but to have given up that many points from winning positions and still be where Chelsea are shows you the potential of Chelsea but shows you that it's not being realised they're not seeing games out that they should see out and you know I can't see that that won't cost them dearly if that is the theme and that carries on there's no way they can finish 4-4-5 I tell you what I didn't think did the new manager any favours either I know it seems so totally trivial but you guys have both played that first touch on the touchline, I didn't think that does him any favours because the minute it goes wrong, you know what players are like, the minute it goes wrong.

52:58It's not when you're winning. When you're winning, it's fine. It's all a laugh and a joke and it's a meme or whatever it is. But the minute it starts to go wrong, that's when players are like,

53:13just at home, if you're listening at home everyone's falling about laughing at the moment because they know I might well Liam Ressignor takes his Chelsea team back to his former club Hull City what you know just underlines the rapid rise of that man's career well he did a really good job and didn't deserve to get the sack at all did a really good job he didn't he really did I'm not I haven't got anything thanks Liam Ressignor he did a really good job Premier League takes a break for the FA Cup fourth round this weekend Aston Villa Newcastle another big game Liverpool Brighton Salford City travel to Manchester City again again again again but now I'll be in host West Ham so we'll be back on Monday to discuss all of that and more hope to see you then