Spurs or Forest to go down? And what will Arsenal win?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Igor Tudor is Tottenham's interim manager until the end of the season and Vito Pereira is back in the Premier League of the game football.

0:30we'll look ahead to a couple of big midweek games, including Arsenal's trip to Wolves. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist, Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in London with a particular focus on Arsenal. It's Gary Jacob and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson is here as usual. What a week, Alison. The last time we were on this podcast, me and you, there was Thomas Frank was still Tottenham manager. Frank out, Dyche gone. New deal for Thomas Tuchel snuck in there as well. Greg, I only took a couple of days off.

1:00It's all madness. Absolute madness. Left me to deal with it all. Yeah, I know. And deal with Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino as well. That's hard enough. So lots to update us on and lots to catch up on over the weekend as well. Let's start with Tottenham and their new interim manager, Igor Tudor, in. Alison, first, your reaction to their decision about getting rid of dear Thomas Frank. Dear Thomas Frank. Yeah. I don't know whether to ask at the end or get it out of the way early. But it was the subject of your Sunday Times column saying that he should now, despite a disastrous period as Tottenham manager, be the most sought after manager in football.

1:37Is that right? Well, first of all, I would like to point out that I was commissioned. I don't write the headlines. I was commissioned to write it. I was commissioned to write it. I didn't volunteer it. No, but you are chief. Like some obsessive. You are chief executive of the Thomas Frank fan club. That's all we should say. But I was commissioned to write it. Yes. I was asked to write it and I wrote it. And my main point, which I think is incredibly valid and insightful, is that the main objections to Thomas or worries when Thomas Frank was first appointed Spurs manager were that he'd had it cushy at Brentford.

2:13It was a well-run club, a relatively small club where he was given time at the start and then time to grow into the job. And he didn't have the spotlight on him. You could go on a run of defeats at Brentford and no one's going to start screaming at you. It was a quiet place. And would he cope with the spotlight of a huge demanding club like Spurs? And the second thing people said was, well, you know, it's Spurs and they're in the Champions League. And he's got no experience of Europe. What will he do? And my repost to both those things is, well, first of all, they're fourth in the Champions League ladder.

2:48he's delivered in Europe some very entertaining football notably two games against PSG but everyone likes to conveniently forget about those because they don't fit the narrative if he wasn't big enough for Spurs my second point why he's now what should be one of the most sought out after managers in the world is all the things that people said he didn't have experience of he now has experience of he now knows how that's the Thomas Frank fan club Yeah, yeah. Clawed at me from the wings. Running around outside, they heard Alison Rudd. She's doing it. She's talking about Thomas Frank. We must listen.

3:24There weren't many out there. If anyone's listening, there were about one person out there. Just running up and down. Just want to put it out there. Sorry, Alison. And it was my sister. And it was her daughter. He now knows what it's like to be at a big, demanding, some could say, entitled club where you're given no time at all, where once a narrative develops everything, it sucks the life out of you as a manager and defines everything you do. Whereas if you still go through his career, none of the things that people accused him of are actually true. He isn't one-dimensional and he isn't overly pragmatic.

4:03When he started out in Denmark, he was famous for tiki-taka football, for example. And some people joked about how progressive he was and how there was no long ball football when there should be. So it's like people just seize on a narrative. Anyway, I think he will have learned so much from really quite an appalling experience in North London that it will make him a more rounded, interesting, go-to coach from now on. Perfect. Time for him to get a new job. I'm surprised he didn't get the Nottingham Forest job. I mean, in terms of Igor Tudor coming in, Gary, with the Tottenham situation. He wants a retort on Thomas Frank.

4:36No, I was just going to say, I think, yeah, I probably have a slightly different view of Thomas Frank. But also I think his next job, a bit like Graham Potter, is important. because, you know, Graham Potter went to Chelsea, then went to West Ham, and now he's in Sweden. So I think where Thomas Frank goes next and how he does is quite important to how he's then viewed going forward. I think that despite everything Dalton said is true, you'll have learned a lot from it. I don't know if that will do anything to alter the perception, which is more important. But the perception was very spurs-led. It may not be fair, but it's still the perception.

5:12It was very much about, we don't want to watch this football. And they didn't buy into him from the beginning, so they were always looking for reasons to have a go. So, I mean, obviously I joked about, oh, I'm surprised he didn't get the Nottingham Forest job, but do you think he's capable of getting a job in the middle bracket in the Premier League? Because I assume your point about perception means you're saying you won't get another crack at a big job. No, it won't be a big job. It won't be... Look, he was interviewed for the Man United job. And Chelsea. Yeah. so that's gone I think I think he might be in the conversation for I'm looking at the league Palace job coming up this summer maybe something like that yeah but it would be like a middle bracket job and I'm not even sure all of them would go for him either because it's I think that that sort of the association that Alison alluded to there about is associated with Brentford and just being like a really important part in a bigger kind of construct there is going to be an association that he has to shake off like because you look at the way Keith Andrews has stepped into into the role at Brentford and done brilliantly that as a perception it's going to be hard to shift and he's like I think you'll get the chance to do it but there'll only be one chance The one thing you'll say is at Brentford he had the system above and it was quite stable the people above Tottenham last summer was very unstable so wherever he goes next perhaps he wants to pick somewhere where it's a bit of stability.

6:40Everyone wants that though. I mean, Green Potter wanted that and then he turned down jobs and then they stopped coming and then West Ham came. Well, he completely lost his mind by taking West Ham because it was a wrong job for him at that point for his career. It was a wrong job, you know. And I think for, maybe for Thomas Frank, he needs to have somewhere where he has that sort of, he has the sporting director who's been there, he has the modules behind him and then he just goes in that system where it's already there and he can do what he wants, but it's a bit of stability. I mean... Tough to find in football these days.

7:10If you look at Tottenham last summer, there was unprecedented change. Two people, obviously Lee moved off the board, Donna Cullen moved off, and then issues with the sporting directors. He's gone into quite a messy environment, and I don't think there's ever been a messy environment like that in 20 years, I suppose. In terms of that messy environment, then bringing in the appointment of Igor Tudor as an interim coach to the end of the season, what do we make of that going forward? Because a lot of people are saying, Gary, like, well, you know, fine, and we want to sack Thomas Frank, the atmosphere is toxic, etc.

7:39But is this really the plan when we're struggling down the bottom of the table and we've got Champions League? My understanding is there was not a plan B. There was no plan? There was no plan B. Right. And this was Joe Lewis's and the Lewis family's decision, not Vinay's and Lang's decision. Vinay was brought into the club as commercial. Lang was brought in as a secondary sporting director below Fabio. Those two people have been promoted above, and they're sort of, you could argue, slightly overpromoted. and now the club is slightly rudderous to the top. So this just feels like a reaction and probably Paratici, although he doesn't work there anymore, who would know Igor and he'd work for Spurs in January.

8:19And I think he was certainly probably keen to get Roberto De Zerbi in a few weeks ago. And that's probably still perhaps somewhere in the background. And obviously he's new Igor from that. That's probably come from him. But does anyone really know if it's going to work or not? Not really. It is a gamble isn't it? It's a gamble. The only thing you would say is that, Gregor being a player, if you change the coach to the player just suddenly play for him because it's not the previous man. What about that idea Gregor? Just by changing the atmosphere a bit? Well yeah that's always part of the logic.

8:51The atmosphere becomes so toxic that you want to release the valve and take all that negative energy out of the stadium at least for a short while and you'll get a bit of a chance to try and make it all look better. Every appointment's a gamble to some extent. I hear people say he's clearly a Serie A man. Most of his career has been firefighting. A short season man as well. Galatasaray 10 months, Udinese 6 weeks, rehired by Udinese again then another 7 months. Assistant manager Juventus, Verona 1 season, one season at Marseille three months at Lazio seven months at Juventus he's a perfect interim manager he never lasts longer than a year it's ideal well yeah the Juventus and Lazio in particular he was appointed in March in both of those clubs and their remit was really to make sure they qualified for Europe and I think he won he lost one of 11 at Juve and got five wins and one defeat from nine at Lazio did that Udinese twice a bit of a kind of David Moyes at West Ham vibe he got the job to steer them to safety and then they didn't appoint him and then they brought him back again the next year to steer them to safety again.

10:04So he has got this in his background and that's part of the logic. But then obviously Serie A is very different to the Premier League. There's a different rhythm, different energy and physicality as I keep banging on about. But who are the people, who are the experienced Premier League managers that are going to come in on a job, a contract at the end of the season at a club like Tottenham? I don't see them. I was joking before we came on it's the guys off the Uber Eats adverts it's not going to be Big Sam it's not going to be Tony Poulos or Alan Bardi who are these people? maybe it should be Ruben Aaron because Igor likes 3-4-3 these are two hot takes today 3-4-3 if you want a manager who likes 3-4-3 bring him on who's got Premier League experience in terms of the long term plan then if we think Igor Tudor is Nicola who's a listener got in touch I think it's almost impossible for any manager to succeed at Tottenham until they scratch the Mauricio Pochettino itch once more, get him back and determine whether he really is a brilliant coach or one who was just looking after a brilliant squad that included a world-class striker in Harry Kane.

11:09I mean, where do you see them going in the summer, Gary? I think if the relationship was between Pochettino and Levy, we don't know whether that relationship exists between Joe Lewis and Pochettino in the same way. And there's some suggestion that it doesn't. So there's no guarantee that Pochettino will be back. in that sense. Also, Pochettino has often talked to him in the past about not wanting a project. He wanted something a bit more ready-made now that he's slightly older. That's not Spurs. And it could be easy for them to give it to him and say, okay, there you go. And if it goes wrong, say, well, that's what you wanted.

11:42But then where do they go after that? So where do they go? You mentioned Deserby there. Roberto would be keen, but probably someone like that, if he's going to take it now, if he were to take it now, he would have wanted it like longer but much longer in the season but they looked at Roberto before under the previous ownership and he kind of burnt his bridges when he had a touchline spat when he was at Brighton against Stellini it's obviously a different Spurs ownership now so a different Spurs board now so whether they would kind of still consider him and then after that you know there'll be a lot of options this summer because of the World Cup manager Nagelsmann's going to come up I mean obviously they're not going to get Angelotti but there are going to be a lot of managers who are in the area Spurs will be down the beckon order in most of them I'm afraid It's another project isn't it that's the thing it's not a ready fixed job it's someone who's got to go in there clean the squad up, get the players they want what money is available now some months ago the owners put money in and everyone thought well that's for players but my reading of it probably was to pay for bills from the past players not going forward so what money is available are they going to have people like Van der Ven wanting to go?

12:57Is Romero going to go? Up front, Ricarlison and Solanke, you know, and the injuries in the squad, full stops, have not really improved those over two years. On the Pochettino thing, I think there's probably a middle ground there. I think, yeah, maybe, rightly or wrongly, there is a niche to be scratched there because it does seem as though a lot of Spurs fans just want that sort of, I don't know, the good vibes and good energy back. That would be a crowd pleaser, isn't Martin Samuels? written about quite frequently. So there's that. But I also think football's changed since Mauricio Pochettino was last a success in the Premier League.

13:30And I think actually, although in time he started to make progress at Chelsea, it wasn't a success. And I think his stock's fallen. I think, you know, when you think about when he came, he arrived with Southampton, the big thing about Southampton was like the remarkable energy and running power and intensity. That's football now. That's football across the board. He's lost that. that was his kind of calling card he was a BLZ star whatever you want to call him so I don't know whether he is going to be as successful a head coach for for Spurs or anyone else in the future but there is still a niche to be scratched in does he have the hunger?

14:09does he still have the hunger? because it's a big job isn't it? it's a big job he had the hunger in 2014 where he said does he have the hunger? and what happens if the World Cup is a disaster for him in the USA? what happens if they lose three games if people still want him? but I agree there's a section of Spurs fans who would still who would want him back and have got this rose tinted image of what it's like I mean you covered him I'll sing his name you know you remember what he was like you covered him well yeah he's very I mean I mean it used to be just in international football you'd get yo-yo appointments where whoever you appointed had to be the absolute polar opposite of who you had before but now it's in every club they're just they just want so Pochettino is incredibly avuncular and very good at giving young players the chance and nurturing them through and the relationships he formed with the players, you know, he just clearly loved them.

15:02Whereas Thomas Frank didn't get time to forge that relationship and probably thought, who the flipping heck have I got anyway? They made life quite difficult for him, actually, especially Romero. And so you kind of think it's just a yearning for the past, I agree. It's a yearning for what used to be in the great days of Sonnen, Kane. Kane and Dembele and Alderbar, Eldon, Rotonga. It's a bloody good spot. But it's also about the personality of the club and the relationship of the manager to the players. And, well, that's the yearning for. But, of course, he'll have very little, he'll have no connection.

15:39If he came back, he'd have no connection with what exists at Spurs now. And there's a lot of relatively mature players as well as young players. I mean, he could get the younger players to develop. And I suppose that's what Spurs fans are hoping for. But it's based mainly on, let's go for someone completely. And that's why De Zerbe has been in the conversation, because he's very, very different to Thomas Frank. But if De Zerbe can fall out with a very well-run club, what the hell is he going to be like at a not very well-run club? He also just fell out with Marseille, really, too. He also fell out with Brighton.

16:14He wants something better, so that would be quite tricky. he wanted more money and Brighton didn't want to buy into Bloom's model if we buy young and we sell on I think also you know Spurs fans also forget Poch's ending at the club wasn't particularly great he sort of slightly downed tools after the Champions League final he didn't get the players he wanted at some and he didn't turn the cycle and it was quite you know a horrible autumn period when he went and even and also that yeah so I don't know whether they whether they should go back and whether they should actually just take a clean break and just move to somewhere i mean someone like kieran mckenna probably would have been interesting to daniel levy who was like the best young manager out there and mckenna out of 14 years at spurs and someone like that probably would have been interesting to him also he'd been on chelsea's radar united's radar so if levy had been now i could have seemed to say well why don't we just have a look at this guy and get him in and have a chat yeah the bets are off now because the board is different and none of us know what Joe Lewis' appointment will be.

17:17We could guess what Daniel Leiby might have done. We can't guess what Joe Lewis will do. And as much as a club will say it's a VNI decision, I do not believe that. It's funny, though, how many clubs in the Premier League that you're seeing managerial appointments. And for want of a better word, ordinary circumstances, they would never get these jobs. The managerial head coach market is in such a state of flux. I think it is going to be a pretty fascinating summer, actually. after the World Cup you know there are a lot of high profile managers which wasn't the case in the past they're now in international football and you know yes Thomas Tuchel signed a new contract but still we'll see what happens after the World Cup and then there's other big managers Gary said Areola Glasner there's a lot of managers up grabs this summer yeah absolutely well we're talking about the summer but just to bring it back to this season then and Igor Tudor and the task that he's got you know Arsenal at home first game North London Derby then Fulham, Palace, Liverpool, Forest.

18:13I mean, he's got a real job on his hands, hasn't he? Like, this is the thing. If it starts badly, they're all of a sudden going, Christ, we're in a relegation battle here. I mean, what do we think about the rest of the season for Tudor and Tottenham now?

18:27Stun silence. Sunday's a free hit for him, isn't it? Is it though? I don't think it is. I don't think it is. It's a free hit as in if they play well, Well, the atmosphere's good and they lose 2-1. If they're Tonk 6-0, it's not a free hit. But are they likely to be Tonk 6-0? I think they're very likely to be Tonk 6-0. I don't know if they get six goals this season. Yes, that's true. Six pieces, maybe. Yeah, potentially. But I mean, Gregor, what's Tottenham for the rest of the season? We're talking about that North London derby, difference of opinion on how to approach that game. But lose that. Fulham, always a tricky game away from home.

19:03Palace and Liverpool, if he doesn't get a good start, they're in the relegation battle, aren't they? they very well might be if they lose at the weekend like they really will be drawn into it and you know the anxiety levels will really spike and the pressure will really rise on him immediately and like I also think you know the Champions League is another thing too you know that's before the Forest game like again it's just remarkable again Forest as well we're going to come on to them but third manager because Nuno didn't actually manage although he got them into the Europa League third manager managing them in Europe this season Spurs have got a second manager managing them in the Champions League knockout stages it's you know be funny if you had the same rules with managers that you have with players where you can't do it for so many clubs in a competition so that when you sack a manager you're like no no you're going to have to go on your own in Europe you can't have that many managers it's too many it's cheating but the struggles at home almost render that kind of secondary now you know they're into the knockout stages of the Champions League and that almost doesn't matter that's such a weird scenario very very strange indeed before we move on to talk about Forrest just one final question from a listener Alison Chris got in touch after reading your column and listening to the show and just asked would you take Thomas Frank at Liverpool then if he's so good?

20:19Yeah I would Yeah there you go Chris I think you knew the answer to that question but I asked it for you anyway Gregor you mentioned Nottingham Forrest there they've got that big game with Tottenham in a few weeks time Vitor Pereira is the man tasked with keeping them up in the Premier League and also that Europa League run As you mentioned, Gregor, the fourth manager of the season, as Bill Edgar writes on the Times website. Today, Forrest are the first top-flight club since the league's formation in 1888 to have four permanent managers in one season. The record for any division is Leighton Orient's five in 2016-17.

20:52This really is not in the Forrest this season. Gregor, you've said it all along about Evangelos Maranakis and him being completely crackers. I don't even think you would have predicted four managers in a season when they made it to the Europa League, would you? No, no I mean although when you saw how Combustible it all was At the start of the season And that's just That's the turning point That's the juncture It wasn't The decision between Edu and Nuno And I don't think Edu Will last beyond the summer So it's going to be An extraordinary waste Of wasted opportunity Extraordinary waste of money And Like for what?

21:31He kind of For the first time in his entire tenure as owner of Nottingham Forest, there was a bit of tranquility. He'd got things in order. Ross Wilson and his recruitment team were doing some really crafty, smart signings and good deals. They weren't going wild in the transfer market, but it was a success and they had a great season. And there's always just this desire and burning energy to take the next step, make Forest a big club, hire him, sign him. And Edu was part of that vision and it's been a disaster. and like that's not all on Edu and it's not actually all on Maranakis like Nuno clearly like played his own part in that the breakdown of that relationship but that's just absolutely thrown a grenade in their season and everything that's followed from then has been a disaster so like ultimately yeah it comes back to Maranakis and like we said it on Thursday and Martin wrote about it the weekend it's just such a a bizarre situation where you've had the crowd at the city is so easy and quick so quick and easy to turn on the manager and even the players at some point and boo them and yet sing the name of the manager's Maranakis and say that he does what he wants like this is the result if he does what he wants so like maybe there'll finally be a bit of a sort of realisation about you know yeah his money and his sort of drive and his energy has taken for us this far but it's it's always on a precipice I think with the nightingon forest.

23:02He's going to run out of managers he's worked with in the past, Yes, that's always the line, isn't it? He worked with him previously at Olympiacos or whatever. So he's linked with Marco Silva in the summer now because he's worked with him previously. Yeah, he's not got many options, as you say, on that front. Gary, you were agreeing with Gregor on the Edu point. And obviously we talked about with Tottenham as well, an instability and uncertainty at boardroom level. We don't know. This is becoming even more common, isn't it? And this is part of the reason we're seeing so many managerial changes as well.

23:30Well, I think the assumption we thought with Eddie was that he was going to do all of the clubs, not just Forrest. And he seems to have kind of signed players. Obviously, Douglas Luiz was the kind of clincher which annoyed Nuno. But he just seems to have kind of done the buys for there. And we thought he would have had a bigger role and perhaps not got so involved in Forrest. And that might have not caused the friction. But obviously, his buys haven't worked out, really, have they, generally? Yeah, I mean, there were a few. Amari Hutchinson was one and he wasn't even registered in Europe. the kid turns up signed for 35 million I think and a good player as well and the manager doesn't put him in the European squad he's like he's since been interviewed about it and it's like I didn't know what was going on so all the kind of collateral damage to it as well the manager's all different style now I mean how do the players now actually go and react to Vita Pereira going in there knowing that his style is completely different to Sean Dyches completely different to Nuno's that's a total moot point I mean we thought that oh they've just gone from Nuno to Ange well that was a bit of a step change and then they've gone back to Deitch and you go oh is there some logic to that because he's kind of got parallels between him and Nuno and then they've gone to Pereira and like Pereira's probably got some similarities to them but they didn't work for Deitch it's irrelevant the players actually probably need to take a bit of responsibility now as well because the squad that they have ain't doing it and like I have sympathy for them because of the chaos around them and as I said earlier in the season I think you'll come to a point now in the summer where there'll be players who have got a good value will say I want out I don't want to be part of this anymore because yeah it was great when we were overachieving and we got into Europe and Morgan Gibbs White gave that interview and he was like yeah I'm really happy to stay standing inside the big man if he's got anything about him and ambition he'll say I want to leave now because you're not going to fulfil your ambitions with Nottingham Forest yeah in terms of Forest is kind of next games to come and Pereira obviously he kind of did this job exact job at Wolves didn't he in terms of quick uptick in form and kept them in the league they've got Fenerbahce away and home in the Europa League with Liverpool at home sandwiched between one of Pereira's former teams but he left Olympiacos for Fenerbahce there you go after six months well he should definitely win that one then then they've got Brighton Manchester City they're actually made for each other too I think he's had 15 jobs Maranac has now been rifled through 10 managers at Forest and the number at Olympiacos is eye-watering.

25:57So like, two peas in a pod. Perfect fit. Like Igor Tudor for six months at Tottenham, it's ideal. Why do we think, no, but a serious point, given everything we've said, why do managers continue to go to Forest? Is it purely ego and money? Because he shouldn't get the job in the first place. That's the point I made earlier. In ordinary circumstances, in sane circumstances, he doesn't get the Forest job. you know Wolves was even like he looked at CV he's another one who never lasted more than a year in a job and like had a few big clubs but in smaller leagues like I think it's such a wild more than anything it's a kind of it underlines the chaos at the clubs that they're having to go for these managers now I don't think they should be Premier League managers we probably can't put this in but maybe a certain agent has kind of held a little bit of sway in this one that's possible too yeah potentially I often do don't they but just finally on these two clubs that we're talking about so we've got Tottenham with Igor Tudor and they're in 16th place at the minute Vitor Pereira and Nottingham Forest they're in 17th at the minute 29 and 27 points respectively who would we be most worried about for the rest of the season out of Tottenham and Nottingham Forest Forest why?

27:11for the reasons I said I think like the chaos will take its toll on the club and yeah you can look again you can look at the past and say oh you know it beat our came in at Wolves got off to a really good start you know points then pints made it a really happy atmosphere doesn't mean it's going to happen at Forest there's been a lot more kind of water under the bridge and yeah I like I'm just also a bit they're really struggling for goals yeah that's that's a big issue so you'd go Forest Forest as well yeah anyways Tottenham have got quality in the squad if they pull their socks up they've got enough to get them out of it albeit they've also got a lot of injuries and then we'll see obviously what happens now Thomas is gone yeah Alison well clearly Spurs but this season has been utterly bonkers and I think the full stop on an utterly bonkers season is a big club going down isn't it could well be we will see if your fans of Nottingham Forest are you saying Tottenham are a big club very good Gary yeah if your fans of either Tottenham or Nottingham Forest get in touch with me your views on the rest of the season how it might pan out tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk we're going to take a quick break now we're going to come back in just a second but a quiz question from Bill Edgar's column Sean Dice has now been manager at both Watford and Nottingham Forest but since 2011 what is the combined number of managers to have been at both of those clubs find out after the break 25 isn't it 23 did he not give some like not even close the number of those

28:54Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robertson with me. They all had very good guesses at the quiz question. Not even close. The answer, twins 2011, Watford and Nottingham Forest combined have had 40 managers, 40. 23 at Watford, 18 at Nottingham Forest. And as Bill Edgar wrote, Nottingham Forest's appointment of Vito Pereira means that you could fill every upstairs seat of a London double-decker bus, brackets, a route master, with permanent managers of Forrest and Watford since 2011. 40 men for 40 seats.

29:29Absolutely remarkable stuff. Good gems from Bill Edgar in his piece on the Times website. Now, back to the FA Cup action. And as we're talking about teams near the bottom of the table, let's mention a great win for League One side Mansfield at relegation threat. And Burnley, Gregor, proof maybe this game, as we'll come on and talk about Burton and West Ham, that actually the gap these days, as we've said before, in cup games isn't as big as it used to be. I wasn't all that surprised about Mansfield beating Burnley, I must say. Yeah, maybe. I mean, the thing is that Mansfield under Nigel Clough, you know, are going to be right up for it.

30:00I think they made six changes. They made a number of changes. That's been a theme of it, like, of the weekend. Even the teams lower down the legs are making changes. I don't know whether that necessarily always weakens the sides. I mean the game I was at the Leeds Birmingham game it didn't there was still everyone you knew and they were both strong teams anyway Nigel Clough's record is just incredible in cup competitions you go back through it remember the goalless draw with Man United in 2008 when he was at Burton took Sheffield United to the FA Cup semi-final in 2014 the next year he took them to the League Cup semi-final against Spurs lost 3-2 that was a wild game and in this I think it's the first time since 1975 Man City would have gone this far and he just always takes the cup really seriously and manages to get his team right up for it.

30:47So yeah, you looked at it and you thought this is a good chance of just beating Sheffield United in the round before, 4-3. And Louis Reid with his set pieces, his free kicks and he's produced another absolute beauty in the 18th minute to get the winner. So yeah, brilliant for Manfield. Absolutely, I'll be hoping for a good draw later on Monday. Gary, I mentioned there, Burton giving West Ham a bit of a scare but Somerville getting the Premier League side through in extra time, he's showing some good form of late which is going to be key, isn't it? Bringing in that relegation battle that we've talked about.

31:15He's finally delivering on the kind of promise he showed when they signed him. Six goals in seven games. And compare that to last season when he got one goal and two assists. So it's quite remarkable. It looks like he's got confidence. I think for last season, he was cutting it off the left and the ball was going over the bar. This time it's going in. He got a fortunate goal a few weeks ago against Tottenham with a deflection. But the goal on the weekend was very good. And he showed in the form that he showed in Leeds where he got, I think it was 19 goals and was their player of the year. And obviously they signed him thinking he was going to be someone like Jarrah Bowen again and maybe could make the step up.

31:52He hasn't looked like he could make the step up so far, but until the last sort of six weeks. I think one of the reasons is he obviously wants to try to get to the Holland squad for the World Cup. So he's obviously sort of thinking. And you saw a little bit of noise in January about him being linked. Obviously people around him are thinking, well, if West Ham go down, you need to kind of find your next move now so well there's a kind of bigger picture going on here it was the FA Cup against QPR that really catalyzed his run of form as well he was playing quite well and covered quite a few West Ham games recently he was playing well before that but or started to play well but I think he scored in that game against QPR when they went through after extra time and he just kept scoring so like actually that ended West Ham's miserable run too I think they were without a win in 10 games and so the cup you know everyone it's another part of it even you think honestly I was at that game we were all like QPR I think have the worst record in like English football history in third round games or something there was a ridiculous stat and I was like this is going to be really very West Ham to go out against QPR and they took extra time and they laboured through it but they got the win and just that lifted the mood remember Nuno saying everything will be better this week we won we won a match everything will be better in training this week and like the proof has been in the pudding afterwards nothing lifts the miserable mood I have a West Ham I'm sorry Greg half a cloud yeah absolutely another team near the bottom of the table and obviously struggling massively Wolves just getting past Grimsby on a very muddy pitch was that always what it was like playing at Grimsby Gregor in your playing days once or twice Tom once or twice you're watching it thinking grow up everyone that actually might have been muddier than any game I played there but yeah you could be battered by the elements there I loved watching the mud over this weekend.

33:41I mean, I know there weren't many shocks and a lot of the football wasn't. I actually enjoyed it, actually, the whole thing. But I just loved people coming, you're standing up, splattered all over, the whole kit splattered in mud. Bring back mud. The game you were at. I thought the energy levels of Birmingham. Brilliant. I thought, because, you know, the general rule of cup games is if it goes to extra time, the Premier League team will always win because the lower division team doesn't have the fitness levels. They haven't got the money or the staff to make those players. And they're all a bit heavier, you know?

34:12It's just the way it works out. That's the stereotype, yeah. Yeah, but you think, oh, no, muddy, muddy pitch. They're all running on treacle. And they were still pelting away deep into extra time. And just as fit. And muddy. Oh, it was lovely. Bring back mud. Absolutely fantastic. How many seasons have they been in the Premier League, Griggle? I mean there's a chance they want another five months Gary that's what they want there's a chance yeah I mean like that's the aim and Birmingham have struggled really to sort of keep pace with the club's you know stated goal which has been we want to be in the Premier League next season for most of the season the performances haven't quite matched up with that but they were on a really good run I think they lost like 1-11 or something before this game and they're 10th but like that's nothing in the Championship it's ridiculous the league I think there's six points down between 6th and 16th in the championship now.

35:11So they're in the race this season and you see that they really went hard and big in the transfer market in January. They've got a chance they could be there next season and we discussed it earlier. When they get there, they're already on a par with mid-table Premier League teams in terms of revenue. We strip out the TV money. And then they've got the new stadium which everyone has seen. It's in the pipeline. One thing, it's slightly, more than disrupted them, but their chairman Tom Wagner suffered a stroke recently you know get well soon to him I met him and interviewed him last year he's a force of nature and that's that kind of has knocked the wind out of the sails a little bit but I understand he's recovering well he's just been his energy his drive his mastery of everything to do with English football in such a short space of time and his ambition has taken Birmingham this far and yeah, they'll get to the Premier League soon.

36:07It could be next season. But if it's not, then I wouldn't bet against it being the season after that. At some point, though, they have to decide they're going to practice penalties. Do not think. They keep losing penalty shooters. Yeah, potentially, yeah. Absolutely. That's the one short step, I would say. But we'll be discussing the championship promotion race in a little bit more detail on the EFL show with me and Gregor later this week. But just quickly on Leeds, Gregor, so confident are they of Premier League survival that Daniel Tharker wants a cup run as well. I mean, it is looking good for Leeds, isn't it?

36:36there'll be Leeds fans listening to this going shut up Tom, stop it, we don't want to talk about it but with everything we've talked about with Forrest and as much as West Ham have improved slightly they're still struggling, even Tottenham as we've said it's looking good for Leeds this season Yeah very much so I mean, they've got a six point cushion I think, they don't look they don't look like they're going to get drawn in at the moment They're on 30 in 15th just Brighton ahead of them they made some changes, both teams made six changes in this but Leeds made changes and Daniel Fart said afterwards that like if it kind of it took away some of their physicality and they were bullied basically in the first half and Birmingham were brilliant like as Alison said they were brilliant throughout you kind of even at the end you thought I'm not sure how Leeds got through this game but they did get through and Fart was saying like you also need to say when there was a block to be made or a challenge last we were always there like we found a way to win and they did and yeah he was looking beyond and I think it's 23 years since they made it to the quarterfinal.

37:35He was also joking that the one thing, he was asked can you dream? And he was like the one thing I dream of is a home draw. They've had since the turn of the century, 79 % of their ties have been away. It's by far the most in English football. So he's like, I want a packed Ellen Road, that'll give us a chance. And he's right. A way to Mansfield coming right up the road. For Daniel Fark, I would say. Mansfield fans wouldn't mind that one. there's a good summary of some of the talking points from the FA Cup but one we have saved until last. Gary there were two ways of me going into this show with you know the regulars on Monday I could have gone down the Thomas Frank route and we did with Alison the other option would have been the VAR route with Mr get rid of it Gregor Robertson Gregor we're a bit worried about this the backlash has become we love VAR apparently now few bad decisions offside goals being allowed a few players looking not to see red lots of managers having their say this weekend Eddie Howe saying I'm so torn because the game is better without VAR in terms of excitement and the spectacle for supporters and us when we're living a moment live, but it does get accurate results.

38:43Arna Slott saying, in general, I enjoy watching football without VAR because if you score, then it's a goal, but it does help. Pep Guardiola saying, sometimes before I thought it was better and sometimes I think VAR helps us to have more of a fair game, to be honest, I don't know. Thanks, Pep, for coming from that one. Are you worried? At least there's some nuance there. Are you worried? A lot of other takes that have been like, so one dimensional just kind of look proof we need VAR like an offside or you know VAR would have corrected that have we got collective amnesia here do not remember that like they're still having we're still having this debate on a weekly basis with VAR and that do we remember like okay they got our offside wrong do we remember Joe Willick's forehead for Newcastle against Spurs last week no one liked that either like you're still you're still not getting offsides that we feel are right with VAR.

39:35So there has to be some nuance. Yes, of course, the handball was the one howler. Absolute howler. There's no defending that. Well, there is. There is in the context of this conversation is that VAR calls that howler by its existence. Tell us more, Alison. I think you're referring to your tweets, which went a little bit viral at the weekend when you said this FA Cup tie is not proof we need VAR, but evidence of how VAR has messed with officials' heads. If BAR had never existed, that mistake would never have happened because Premier League referees are so now contained in this vacuum of whatever they do will be highlighted, exacerbated, spotlight on because of replays and replays and having to go sometimes to the microphone and telling the crowd, on review, that they don't see what, you know.

40:26Such distinction. Yeah, why are they all nodding? On review. more referees 79 % it's a bit like willing to take responsibility that's what it is but I think I genuinely think it messes with their ability to be authoritative and trust in their own eyes it used to be it used to be you just had to give what you saw and hope that people were grown up about the fact that yeah the odd the odd nuance mistake would happen and that could happen to anybody because you can't see every element of a pitch. But if you if you've constantly got a computer and replays over your shoulder, it's like having a little deity above your head telling you, you know, you have no free will.

41:13It's really hard, I think, to act like a normal human being trained in a job when you've got you've got the replay option always there, either as a comfort blanket or to contest your decision it's a really hard thing to get your head around and I just think in that moment the referee froze because his day-to-day job in the Premier League is that it doesn't matter if you really saw what he thought he saw because someone will be there to say in his ear you got that wrong and to step away from that I think just briefly just for the cup rounds is very very difficult it does not mean we need VAR it means we should never have had it and you said as well there were a couple of good responses to your post on social media, including one that talked about the referees.

41:59We should have referees who don't use VAR to referee the game. That makes perfect sense to me because of what I've just explained. So as in referees who work from the Football League, right. EFL referees who don't have VAR every week. You should see something. Are we really seriously thinking we're just going to get referees from like who are not deemed the best in the country? You can watch us on YouTube, by the way, listeners now at Timesport, but Gregor Robertson's got a look on his face where he looks like he's about to walk out of the studio and be like, I'm done, I'm done with all this. He's going to join the Thomas Frank people outside.

42:31The fan club running around outside. This thing, as it might be right, and a lot of people have made this point, and it might be right. I don't think we can actually know for a fact whether that's right or wrong. It might just be a brain freeze moment. It may be a moment where he was looking at some movement in the box or whatever was going on and he didn't see it. Whatever. It was a howler. It happens. But the howler still happened with VAR. as I said last week VAR gives you another opportunity to make howlers that's what happens we see it on a weekly basis and actually when I panned out and you look at watch the highlights of all the games this weekend I saw some really good decisions I saw Cody Gakpo score a goal that was offside marginally It wasn't though?

43:11Behave Alison I didn't mind I didn't mind I really didn't mind I move on no drama over it Oh that's good that's a plus Josh Madger scored two for West Brom that were marginally offside they were right they called it offside like the linesmen the assistants are good that's the thing and even Tammy Abrahams yeah he was a couple of yards I could deal with that there was no one marking him the ball was dinked over it might have been easier if he'd been hanging a yard back he wouldn't have had to pause his run to chest it and get the like we've just got to accept it there's no right or wrong answer there's no there's no easy way to like correct everything all the time and you'll always have mistakes but with VAR we're just giving ourselves an opportunity to make more of them.

43:57Do you think they carry mistakes throughout the game so if they make a mistake it's on their mind and that's natural but then in that case if it all corrects their mistake then in their mind they're clear. So they're not carrying it through. It's not baggage. Maybe but then you can, oh come on Gary we'll just go down another wormhole there then when they get sent over to the monitor and they're like well somebody's telling me I should be looking at this probably it means I've got to make the decision there's a whole sorts of dynamics in the minds going on here but take Dinius tackle as well everyone's good that's a VAR era like VAR generated anger moment because I think if we watch that in real time and the referee sees it you think oh it's on the borderline but it could be a yellow if he gives either way a yellow or a red fine but now in the VAR era you watch it slow down frame by frame and you see he's stud making contact with his shin you go I made a mistake there imagine if we had VAR he would have corrected that like it's not true before you get to there's no right there's no right decision to that Potts was sent off rightly Potts was right yeah that was a bad challenge he went through his standing leg like the referee got it right in the moment I don't think he got that wrong it could have been a yellow it wasn't a cruncher he flicked although when he pulled his socks down it was a massive scar quite high up in his leg yeah but it didn't it wasn't his whole foot planted on his shin it was just like he caught him and it was bad it was nasty but at full speed a bit like Diego Dallos from Man United at full speed you look at it and you go but you don't go that's a shocker an instant red card in the VAR era you go okay we better look at that forensically and yeah okay let's look how high his leg is look at that frozen image of his stud planted against his shin red card is the game better for that not for me no it won't be the last time we talk about VAR and just before you get really upset just a word from Josh who's a listener Gregor who got in touch who said Tom I'm emailing you at half time I'm a Newcastle fan watching the Villa game you could argue Dean you might have seen red and their goal might have been ruled out if VAR were in play but honestly I couldn't care less even if a few decisions aren't going our way it's just refreshing to watch some football without VAR so there you go thank you and you also see if you look in Spain you look in Italy like look around this is happening everywhere Barcelona did an 8 minute check for an offside that was a joke, that was nothing in a game last week.

46:25Serie A, some of the stuff that managers are coming out with about this saying, well, managers need to come together and have a voice together. They're outraged. Like, it's not just us. So Gregor Robertson, Banragan, rumbles on to get rid of VAR. Will he manage to succeed? He needs to borrow the first bus. Yeah, with all the managers on top. Yeah, absolutely. Let's finish with a chat about the Premier League leaders, Arsenal. they needed just 27 minutes to beat Wigan 4-0 Gary you were there you're the man who covers Arsenal 4 all the time so it's great to have you with us we're going to have a bit of a Q &A session I think on the league leaders and for the rest of their season let's start with this game in particular Eber Eche Eze was the subject of your rapport headline the summer signing pulling the strings after 16 games of frustration we are coming up to the North London derby of course which was a great moment for him earlier in the season but since then it has been a struggle for a man that is an incredibly talented player but maybe we haven't seen all of his ability at Arsenal.

47:20What do you make of his season at Arsenal so far and then his performance in this game? I think it's been mixed. I think you'd say there have been some really good moments and a lot of games have passed him by. I think when you go to a big club, and Dick and Rice had it when he went from West Hampton, you have to almost relearn football. And he's learning Arteta's system. And Arteta's system is completely different to Palace's system and the way they play, but also the freedom he had at Palace and what he could do and the mistakes he could make and he was the creative player that everyone looked at and it didn't really matter.

47:54Arsenal was a much more constrained system and he probably hasn't got the licence to make those mistakes. He made the mistake against Villa away and then he's not seen for a couple of games on the left wing. So I think it's a bit of a mixed bag. Equally, he hasn't always taken his opportunities. Arsenal have slightly changed recently to 4-2-3-1 and had him as a number 10 and sometimes he's not been in that 10-row. He's drifted. I mean, Alison, you were there against Brentford, weren't you? And he was hooked at half-time. Well, he just disappears. Yeah. And I think that is... Do you think that he disappears in Arteta's system?

48:28No, I think he's always been a player who disappeared, but because at Palace, he would be the one player you could rely upon to, in a tight game, create that moment of a through ball that was just heavenly and got you the win. You were forgiven for it. But throughout his whole career, I've thought both things at the same time. I've thought, what vision he has. But I've also thought, why have I not seen him for 70 minutes? Interesting. So coming back to this game, Gary, we did see that in this game. I mean, he had space in this game to play the passes and he dropped deep and played some really good two passes and two really good assists.

49:02You'd play quite well against Wigan, wouldn't you? Aye, aye, aye. Not having that. That is a straight red. No VAR. No VAR. I'm not having that. That's a boot for the League One and a boot for Northern people. It's a struggling League One team who have got their eyes on avoiding relegation and they're playing at the Emirates. Wow. It's going to be easy, isn't it? Straight red. Relatively easy. We're going to have to get her on the EFL show before the end of the season, aren't we? Relatively easy. I think there's a question about him that he's probably better with space than when out space isn't he, is he?

49:33And when an Arsenal play with a way, they're playing against low blocks but they also squeeze up and he's also playing tight spaces and tight spaces that someone like Odegaard. So then there's a question about that and where the best player position for him is and how you integrate him and what he needs to do more. And I don't think they've kind of really solved that this season. But potentially maybe a player that we'll see the best of in an Arsenal show next season after a full year with Arteta. And Palace fans will say he was always a springtime player at Palace where he always started to kind of in spring get his goals, get his assists.

50:10So whether that now sort of sets him up. Might be the perfect catalyst for this. So I think when people talk about that Tottenham game, remember Tottenham have conceded a lot of goals from outside the box and shots and goals this season from outside the box. So that game kind of fitted into what he was doing in that. So let's see maybe this weekend. Let's see after that. But he might get a run because Odegaard's, there's a doubt. I've seen Marino's out. So there might be a bit of a doubt. I mean, interesting yesterday, he played Saka in midfield because of the change. And I thought that was an interesting move.

50:37It's like with Havertz now injured for about another month and Havertz was looking really good and actually they were looking much more fluid as a team, not relying on the boring set pieces. Now, Havertz's engine. Saka then played there. Can he now play there and be the creative player? Yeah, and also take him out of a position where a lot of teams know, as much as he's an incredible talent, they know what you're getting with Saka on that right wing. So try and change it up. Do you think that is a problem for Mikel Arteta as they head into this crunch period now of getting some more fluidity and more goals out of his attacking line-up?

51:11But is that what some, you touched on it there in this game. Is that what we're going to start seeing now? Because there was this brief period where Jesus is back, Giocares has started to score some goals, Havertz is back. And you go, I've got all three of them, three different options. Now without Havertz for a little while. I think Havertz's absence is quite key now, really. He'll miss Spurs. I mean, he should be back for the Chambers League games next month. I think they've got Brighton at the end of the month. So that was quite good. So it's whether someone else, because when he's not there, it felt a little bit stodgy.

51:43You probably saw the other day that there can be a bit stodgy in that midfield. It's all a bit samey and there's no one to play the pass and then they kind of go around the circles and rely on the set pieces. Is that down to the opposition as well, though? Because they face a lot of low blocks, don't they, this season? People say that, and there is a little bit of that. But then when Havertz played in that little run against Sunderland and against Leeds, in Sunderland they scored three goals and none were set pieces. and he had the vision to play the passes because he's intelligent enough to find on the place, on the pitch, where to go and what angle of pass.

52:17And so I don't think they have anyone else as intelligent to do that. Odegaard at times can do it, but probably doesn't do it enough. Declan is a different type of player. Zubomendi's a different type of player. So they don't really have it. Also, I mean, perhaps as well with Saka maybe dropping inside is that Nani's been playing better. Maduweke's been playing. you know, he's a player who can be inconsistent, as in Chelsea, but actually his form in the last few weeks has been really good. So that's allowed, maybe allows Mikel to say, okay, well, not only you go right, and Saki, you can go inside and we can do something a little bit different.

52:54You know, I was just going to say that. I think Madureki, every time I watch Arsenal play, I think he's, like, recently, he's been one of the best players. And just something different, like real energy directness dynamism like you know he did it against Leeds he was on fire against Leeds and just kept knocking it down the lane against Wigan and as Alison said relatively you know was her opponent but really? I've got an awful thing to say outrageous but he's just got that direct energy you know that he gets the ball and he wants to go at them Saka's still like is you know he'll cut inside he'll play they'll try and get combinations he's a one man attacking sort of weapon and that's the point of difference I think for Arsenal which could be quite valuable on the weeks ahead Yeah we often don't really talk about games on Thursday nights because of the way we do this podcast but Alison you were there at the Brentford draw and that's when the kind of conversation starts the lead is down to four points it's still a lead guys you're still leading by four points with 12 games to go in terms of that performance and what you think it maybe says about Arsenal we're going into this period they're going to face a low block against Wolves on Wednesday night then they've got North London derby with an Igor Tudor-inspired Tottenham, bringing in some of the things you saw against Brentford, would you have worries if you were an Arsenal fan?

54:10If I was an Arsenal fan, yes, I would, but that would be my predisposition, wouldn't it? To be worried. But genuinely, I'm a huge fan of what Brentford have done since they've been in the Premier League. I think their fairy tale story has been overlooked because they've just never been in danger, actually. It remains a remarkable story how successful they've been. They've suddenly become a stalwart of the Premier League and they'd never been in it before. It's incredible. They were astonishingly good. I mean, the first half was boring. Second half, amazing football. And as Brentford grew in confidence and created more and more chances and played with absolute freedom, which is what you want from a football match, isn't it?

54:56Arsenal, what was worrying from an Arsenal perspective was they didn't retort with that, we're going to win the title, we're very special. They allowed themselves to be intimidated. They just didn't grasp the challenge ahead of them. I found them quite, almost like relieved to get a draw. You know, that's not the personality you want from a team challenging for the title at all. But I don't think many teams are going to be quite as free with the play as Brentford were yeah I mean for all the reasons you just gave there Brentford away is one of the hardest games in the Premier League now like for all the all the reasons Alison said we'd you know from the start of the season we've known about Keith Andrews sort of seemed to turn the dial a bit on the sort of physicality and the power and all that kind of stuff but now they've found a way and he said it he actually said it when I interviewed Emile in the season he said it from the start of the season I want us to improve and sort of evolve with the ball as well and now we're seeing that.

55:58So they've got both weapons. And yeah, he's done an incredible job. Yeah. Incredible job. Can I ask you, Alison, because Declan and Arthur came out and said that we've got to shut out the noise. Do you think they are hearing the noise from people sort of saying, City are coming for you and your mentality, blah, blah, blah? This was another irony, actually, because I find the Arsenal away fans don't exhibit any of that nervousness at all. So if you're playing in the vacuum of that game at the GTX Community Stadium, if you're an Arsenal player, all you can hear is the support that you're going to win the league.

56:38It's at the Emirates you get that. Nerves. The gasps of, oh, you know, and then slowly people lose, you know, there's an exhale and you think, oh, it's gone, it's gone, we're going to lose the title. And you can palpably, viscerally feel it at that stadium when the fans start worrying. So that's the problem they have. They might not read the media or listen to radio phone-ins, but you can't escape playing your home games and knowing that if there's a setback, the fans start getting jittery. But that was the irony of this game because I've found Arsenal Away From Home to be more compelling sometimes than, I know the record is great, in terms of the vibe of shutting out the noise.

57:18That noise isn't external, it's internal. because the fans are part of the club. Gary, then finally to you, how does Mikel Arteta manage that? Because in lots of ways, they're in an amazing position. They're four points clear in the league. They're still in all three cup competitions. They've got a final against Manchester City. They dominated the Champions League. This is an amazing season for Arsenal. I think they're going to do exactly what he's done throughout this season, just the same type of football, the same type of ways of managing the games. I mean, the style has now become a lot more functional.

57:49We were probably saying calculated, whether it's playing for corners, whether it's using corners whether it's using set pieces and I think it's just going to be the same grinding over to the end of the line I think when they look back on this season you won't see many games where you go I really want to go and watch that game again last season there was maybe a 5-1 of a man city there aren't so many there's maybe Spurs, maybe Bayern there's moments but there's not these Aston Villa where it was a very good game which they lost dominant performances yeah, dominant performances where everyone it's three months of the season with the really important games to come so that's to get your point so far but I think the real important stuff starts now so final question then four trophies up for grabs how many do Arsenal finish with at the end of the season?

58:35Gregor? two Alison? which two? doesn't matter just pick one Gary? I think two two I'm going to which two then? there you go I think they might win the Champions League and and one of the domestic one of the three others not the league well he's going to win the league no it's a treble Gary Gary's got no treble so Champions League and the League Cup for Gary and not the League Champions League and the League I'm going to go for there we go that's the double every Arsenal fan wants go on Gregor what are your two FA Cup and League Cup no I would say League and League Cup League and League Cup Alison what's your one trophy I think I know what it's going to be.

59:19No, it's just that they were so beautiful against Bayern I'm going to go for the Champions League because that's the best they've played when I've seen them live. Champions League it is. There we go. Well, Arsenal fans get in. And what about the league? Are they just going to fall away or? There'll be a point in it, Gary. A point in it. One point in it. There we go. Are you Tom? Thanks, Greg. Very kind of you. I'm going to say two as well. I think they will win the Premier League and the Carabao Cup. There you go. I think the Champions League is definitely up for grabs for them and any of the British teams this year, isn't it?

59:50But I think it will probably depend in the Champions League where the league situation is. You know, if they do have the great run now and maybe get into like seven, eight, nine clear again, then I think maybe the Champions League comes into contention. And the funny thing about the Champions League is that strange rule this year, isn't it? Where they're going to have home games, second leg games, all the way to the semi-final. That could be key as well. Which could be quite key. Yeah, absolutely. That's not working their favour. Yeah, there you go, Arsenal fans. No need to worry at all. Trophy's coming your way.

1:00:16We'll leave it there. Gary Jacob, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me me and Gregor will be back with an EFL show this week and we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday we'll see you then