The real Roy Keane and should heading be banned

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0:56Tom's Jose Mourinho to steal the show right at the very end. Honestly, what a showman. On today's show, we'll discuss the bonkers game in Benfica, Newcastle's draw against PSG and five English teams heading straight through to the round of 16. We'll also hear about the real Roy Keane, ask what more can be done to protect players from the effects of heading the ball, and look ahead to the weekend's action and the end of the transfer window. I'm Tom Clark, and joining me today, we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea and Marseille striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson.

1:30It's here, as usual. Right, forget the English teams. Sod them. Sod the lot of them. Let's start with Benfica 4, Real Madrid 2. A wonderfully crackers game. Heading 3-2 it was, heading into added time. Real realised they need an equaliser. Get two men sent off, basically out of fury and rage, really. And then Benfica's keeper, Anatoly Trubin. scores in the 98th minute to put them in the playoffs and goal difference. Jose Mourinho raving on the touchline like it's 2004 all over again, celebrating with a ball boy. This was just absolutely class to swatch, wasn't it, Greg? Magnificent, yeah. And like, you know, we can think, should we be pointing out, you know, highlighting Jose in this?

2:15But he pointed to the goalkeeper to go up. He's done it before. He did it against Porto, I think. And he also pointed to outfield players and said, you stay back, which is fantastic. He's nine men. Yeah, he's nine men. And the fact that he'd made all the subs as well to try and shut up shop. Because he thought three-two was enough. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And then he was like, I can't make any more subs. So, you know, what are we going to do? Then they got the free kick. And you see him pointing up. And that's what a header. Great delivery. Great delivery. Header. It was an absolute cracking header, wasn't it?

2:43Brilliant. Do you know what's so incredible in that moment is? Because afterwards, Jose admitted, he said, a couple of few weeks back, the keeper went up and just missed and nearly scored. Yeah, against Porter. And that's in his mind. That particular, you think, with all what's going on around you, he's had the second to think, get him up there as quick as he can because he's likely, like he did a few weeks back, although he didn't score, to get on the end of something. Yeah, it was great, wasn't it? That interview afterwards, he was like, oh yeah, I said to Real Madrid, I said to Dean Housen, I know you're lucky to only lose 4-2.

3:11It could have been more, but we knew he could score. We knew the big guy can score. And he just listens, like absolutely Jose Mourinho, box office. But he also, you could tell he wanted the occasion as well. I was trying to follow it all chaotically on the editing floor. He wanted a big Madrid as well. He did, yeah. He wanted a big Madrid. The player who I thought looked really bright, Prestiani, I think, had a brilliant effort saved by Courtois in the first half, tips it onto the bar and they pan to Jose on the touchline and he's just grinning. You can see he's going, yes, this is it. Rain, chaos, atmosphere.

3:42Absolutely fantastic. Also, so many storylines in this. Pavlidis, who missed a penalty against Juventus a week ago, I don't know whether you saw that, he slipped and basically skewed a penalty wide. steps up and takes a penalty and scores in this one. Absolutely fantastic. I don't know whether you saw as well, there's clips doing the rounds this morning of the Portuguese TV channel, a news channel who at the time were interviewing a priest talking about destruction that happened with the storms in the last 24 hours. And they were apparently talking about the relationship between God and bad weather and having this quite serious debate.

4:20And just in the background, you just said, go and look it up it's absolutely brilliant they all like jump in the air and the presenter has to be till the priest be like Benfica has scored Benfica has scored do you want a similar story to that yeah okay we're travelling down with a police escort with a Republic of Ireland team down into Dublin and we approach this roundabout we've got the outbuckers they're on they're in front of us and as we're going down an ambulance siren comes onto the roundabout and the policeman goes stop like that with the siren of the ambulance and Jack Charles laughing and look how important you all are someone's dying and they're letting us throw and we're all laughing because it was like that moment of stopping the ambulance and let the team go afterwards you feel like they can't be doing that surely but it was that moment of like you know what you're talking about on the TV football trials above all but I mean it did slightly did it save did it make this kind of format because this is this kind of confected drama that you've talked about and railed against before Gregor isn't it but it could happen in the old format if you know what I mean it could happen it could happen although it's slightly less likely yeah but teams will win in the last minute won't they yeah definitely but I think with the amount that was needed you know we were all in the office as I say you know you've got all the sub editors in there the pages on we're all looking at the table as I think it was sporting Lisbon who go up knock Man City down you're then the City players Paul Hurst was at the City game and had filed his copy talking about it being a serene night for Manchester City he rang me and said I need to change my intro it's not serene anymore they're all stood on the pitch with like looking at things going what's happened what's going on you know so it changed I'd say that does with all the factors Real Madrid going being suddenly shouting you need to equalise you need to equalise it does it does make all the difference doesn't it it does but all the world over we are the Benfica thing was wonderfully dramatic because they've nicked into 24th place they were out of the tournament having been pretty crap let's be honest even that sentence in itself is odd though, it's wonderfully dramatic because they nicked 24th place Man City were never out of the tournament you know the serenity that Paul is talking about is the difference between playing Bayer Leverkusen home and away or Monaco home and away I mean Newcastle have fallen short and I think they're what are they Monaco or Carabag Carabag I think yeah so it's not really great drama that Man City might have to play two games against Carabag say if they've fallen out of it it's delayed Jeopardy but then also for most clubs it's not even real Jeopardy no so it's like a mirage of Jeopardy yeah exactly and it's been delayed so that you know a mirage of Jeopardy Marge of Jeopardy?

7:17I don't know. Is that your debut album? OK. That sounds like the difficult third album, that one. Marge of Jeopardy. Let's look at, I don't think Marseille would see it like that because Marseille have gone two back-to-back 3-0s. And gone out. And gone out. You know, their 3-0 home defeat to Liverpool and then backing it up against Bruce last night, it was like, wow. No, no, no, you're right. And we shouldn't all, we are guilty of looking at it through an English prism. As you highlighted, Sporting there, they just beat PSG, They scored a 94th minute winner against Athletic to Athletic Bilbao, as you say, jump into the top eight Bodo Glimt beat City and then beat Atletico last night To jump into the qualifying round I'd even say Celtic last year After just years of Champions League failure and misery Found a way into the qualifying round And then gave Bayern a decent run for it It was extended So you think outside the big storyline is English dominance of this Champions League phase so far but also outside of that the new format as much as I'm the new format as much as I'm sort of I've been a critic of it it does make life more exciting and you know there's more possibilities for other clubs Yeah it is in the terminology as well isn't it as you say Martin I was kind of working on the back page of the paper and doing these kind of write-offs that you have to do first time the editors generally write in the office and you're trying to work out the terminology Newcastle out no they're not out they're not out they've just got to play they've just got to play how do you sum up Real Madrid have pain in the arse extra game Newcastle Newcastle inconvenienced Newcastle inconvenienced mildly in February yeah they're going to have to travel to Azerbaijan in February or Monaco it's not quite a snappy back page headline is it so are you just to come round welcome to heck that could be it welcome to heck exactly are you are you coming round on the format because as I say No I just think it is nuanced like football like the action rises above almost anything that's another example of this it'll do it again in the World Cup it does it everything you think is getting you know that is very true just very quick I saw a fellow journalist tweet exactly that last night that he said this proves that whatever these organisations FIFA, UEFA try and do with the game the actual football will always bail them out in the end there might come a point there might come a point where that's not true and that will be a dangerous moment like a moment where for example a Super League is reality and you just see these teams playing over and over and also we just discussed earlier like this was a great spectacle for us watching at home and watching the goals show rather than watching I watched the PSG Newcastle game and it wasn't great Newcastle battled it was like they were a bit unfortunate PSG were below par so after it I'm thinking I've probably picked the wrong game maybe I should watch the goals show which is actually watching people watch football and seeing the highlights.

10:14So it turns it into a TV spectacle too and that's like another thing that this format has done. It was the first time that I haven't picked. I started off, I picked the Chelsea game because I thought, right, Napoli have got to win this. So I've got to try and win this. So this is a good game because they could be out. I didn't go with PSG Newcastle because I'm thinking whatever happens here, they're both through. And all we're actually arguing about is whether they have to play in February or not so I'll go with the Chelsea game I went with it for about five minutes and you could see stuff happening elsewhere and I'm thinking and I'm now messaging with one of my lads who's a Chelsea fan and he went why aren't you watching the goal show dad and so I went no you're right I should be watching he said you've got to be across more than just Chelsea I said yeah I know and so I went over to the goal show and never went back see for me that's not a good thing I don't think that's a good thing like look he was watching Chelsea by the way I was watching Chelsea I watched Chelsea Napoli but switching between Liverpool as well versus Garibay because you see the goal comes up on your screen doesn't it?

11:16So you know the goal elsewhere you can literally change channel and you'll get the replay of the goal It's an extension of football being consumed in clips and snapshots usually on your phone and stuff that's what it is so like instead of consuming a full game you know there's so many there's so many other delicious possibilities elsewhere that you're drawn to watching something that's not actually football. And the goal show in itself is really frustrating because they go now we go to Arsenal and there's a bloke standing over a penalty and you're thinking well show us what's happened to get this penalty or whatever you know because when it went back to Chelsea Napoli they're saying oh that's a definite handball and everything and I'm thinking well I haven't actually seen the handball and then of course when you see the handball you go football traitors football traitors you fancy going celebrity traitors turn yeah those are quite a good prize ball I think you'd be pretty good on it I think you could be a good traitor.

12:10Anyway, we've strained way off topic here. Let's go back to talk about some of the English teams. But if you've got views on the Champions League format or on the way we consume football these days, whether it's the goal show or whether you can still watch 90 minutes of football like Gregor, the purist, get in touch with me. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. Just wanted to quickly whiz through some of it. And we start with Newcastle PSG, Gregor, because as like you, I'm fortunate enough when I'm in the office to be able to watch two things at once. Like you, both things can be true. I can watch two things at once.

12:35You can't, Tom. That's not true. You can. No, you can't. You can watch one and then flip your eyes to the other one. You can't watch them both. Only the very best. I tried to remember I had this argument with Alison Rudd that I watched four matches at once, once. So let's just, don't test me, all right? Anyway. No, yours is right. Yours is true. Yeah. I'll tell you for a while, because there's young poker players who can play six tables at once. There you go. See? Yeah, they go from one to the next or two. No. Anyway. Newcastle, PSG. Newcastle, PSG. I did think Newcastle, from what I saw, Gregor, did look at least very brave, tactically very astute in this game against a very good side, Vettinia again.

13:09Every time I watch that guy, the way he sells Lewis Hall for the goal. Yeah, it's lovely. Poor guy. That's going to be gifed up and clipped up for the rest of Lewis Hall's career. As good as he was, I thought he looked good when I saw him. Newcastle a little unlucky in this game or I was speaking to Martin Hardy afterwards who wrote the report for the Times. He said a draw probably about a fair result. Yeah. I mean, it looked like it was going to be a long old night from the start. I mean, again, let's not really talk about it. It was a nonsense handball that they got a penalty at the start. Ridiculous.

13:35You can handball it onto someone else and your bit isn't handball less said about that the better yeah anyway Nick Pope saved it but PSG had all the momentum then they scored and you thought Lewis Miley you're thinking this kid's what has he just left his team's mind he's a midfielder playing at right back during an injury crisis and he's coming up against Bradley Barkal and there was a moment in the first half like in early on where he skinned him early and he got back and he made it he kind of rectified it made you know brilliant recovery run and then in the next one Barkle got the pass And he just Flicked it over His head And his hair Off the line I thought this was Going to be a Torturous night But he was brilliant He was absolutely Outstanding And like There were a lot Of performances Like that Like Newcastle They kind of hung in For large periods And then even Towards the end They looked like They might be the team To get the winner And Harvey Barnes Came on And Gordon came on Made a big difference And Barnes missed A good chance At the end So yeah Draw probably was fair And you know as things were changing around about PSG were like looking like they were going to be qualifying and then I think you could tell that the message was conveyed and they upped it a gear you always felt they had another gear and I feel they will have that when it gets to the money stage well that's what I did actually last year yeah so all that being said like I think given all the kind of circumstances for Newcastle injuries and everything it was a good performance yeah really really was I thought the kind of Lewis Miley analogy there kind of slightly summed up the whole team because there were moments you were watching it and they were making quite brave passing, playing it out from the back, and you were watching it going, oh my God, oh no, they're going to lose it in concede.

15:12But actually, it generally got out really, really well. So a good performance from Eddie Howe and his team. Tottenham, Tottenham. Maybe this is the slight farce and error in the format because Tottenham are the fourth best team in Europe, aren't they? Do you know what? It was so interesting. If you look at the table, the finish of the tables, Eintracht and Fakf have conceded 21 goals, which really, apart from Kyrat, who were the bottom, who conceded six against Liverpool. They were the worst defensively, Frankfurt. So Tottenham were in a real group of games which they could get victories. I think they played, I think their wins are four of the six bottom teams.

15:50Tottenham's full fixtures are Villarreal win, Bodo draw, Monaco draw, Copenhagen win, PSG lose, Slavia Prague win, Dortmund win, Frankfurt win. Yeah, there's a few there, yeah. So there's four in the bottom six, I think. and the two draws are team... There's none in the top eight. There's none in the top eight. There's two draws against teams in 21st and 23rd place or whatever. So what we're saying is Thomas Frank's managed to get them finishing fourth and they should have won it. They should have finished top. But it was always... Did you not think... I think I wrote this. From the very start, you looked at the fixtures and went, well, Tottenham have won the pools here.

16:28I mean, Tottenham really have got the most straightforward fixture list of any of the English teams. and to be fair to Thomas Frank you can't knock it that's what he's made it look like in terms of Thomas Frank then obviously we've discussed it so much on the podcast this season it's a massive talking point in the league as well they are through to the round of 16 he's got until March before that fixture comes around he kind of has to get until then doesn't he regardless of what happens in the league or is that naive? well you'd think so Greg is looking at me like I'm an idiot no I mean it's easy to say that until you're sitting in the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium and you hear Naboo's ringing out again after, I don't know, they've got City and United coming up next, haven't they?

17:07City this weekend, yeah. They've got a tough old run of fixtures, that's for certain. So he's going to need to bring some of this for him into the Premier League. But they were going to beat City, didn't they? I mean, they've got this incredible run against City. Yeah, they won away there this year. Yeah, but they've got a very good record against City, I think. There were things he seemed really happy about afterwards. The first is like, clearly another clean sheet. And then also, Colomolani Simons and Odeber he was quite he seemed very happy about the fact that they looked like they were offering something more in an attacking sense Solanke's big as well isn't he well absolutely coming back into the team do you rate him too well I think he's necessary because for me he's far more accomplished than Charleston necessary is one of the worst compliments in football Tony Cascarino former top striker what do you think of Dominic Solanke it's necessary look if you take the young Dominic Solanke who clearly hadn't matured like he did until he got to Bournemouth and the amount of goals he got there, then he takes that to Tottenham as an injury.

18:05If you take him forward and come him back like he has, there's a lot of running power in Tottenham. And I think that's the one plus I've seen. Have you watched the game last night? Tottenham create a lot of chances by pressing. Yeah. You know, getting the ball back off of Eintracht Frankfurt, who are probably the perfect team for Spurs to play, like Liverpool fans. Like they were, Liverpool. Yeah, absolutely. They want to overplay everywhere. but Tottenham hounded them, got in their faces, made it difficult and if they can do that week in, week out that makes a massive difference to a team. As we were saying about their run of fixtures they've got Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle and Arsenal so whilst they sound difficult maybe it's well suited to Thomas Frank and this team we'll see if we can turn it around we'll be discussing them I'm sure on Monday's show.

18:48Let's talk about Chelsea. Martins you said you were following this game. I was watching it as well. I watched it. Yeah, third game as well. A bit lucky, Tone, do we think, in this one? It didn't play well in the first half. There's a talking point in this game. I'm not sure Pedro Neto is going to be happy with being dragged at half-time. Because he weren't happy when he was playing during the game. Well, he started the season well. He looked really good. He's one of the best players. Without a doubt, Neto's a handful. But the way he was put into the team, it looked like he didn't like it. The role he had to play, which was wide right, but more like a win back, but didn't cover back very well defensively.

19:25and he's got the drag at half-time. But Neto's a big player for Chelsea. So I straight away thought, yeah, you've won the game in a certain way and Rosinha has got another victory. But I did think straight away, I'm not sure how Pedro Neto's going to be because the wide areas at Chelsea, we're seeing Canaccio winning out of the team. We're seeing Estéval winning out of the team. We're seeing Neto being taken off at half-time. The wide areas is quite difficult for a Chelsea player. We haven't seen the best of a number of players that they've brought in in their positions. I was very interested as well, three centre-halves on the bench and Rhys James at centre-half.

20:01Chattabar came on. Yeah, he came on in the second half. The Rhys James one is a weird one because he's played a lot more football this season, hasn't he? Maybe more than we thought in recent times when he mentions constant references to his injuries whenever we bring him up. But he's played in midfield, he's played right-back, he's played centre-back. He's England's right-back now, again. You think regardless? Oh yeah, I think he's England's right-back now. Even if he plays the rest of the season as centre-back. court as the defensive midfielder for Chelsea. I think he's Thomas Tuchel's right back and he's played very well in midfield as well.

20:31So to see him at centre-half when you've got three centre-halves on the bench, one, if you were one of those centre-halves, you'd be thinking, this might not work out as we thought. But two, I just think there'll be certain things that Veciniar does that will take some getting used to with Neto and with different other players. and he was talking after the game about, you know, why it was very handy not to have the two matches in February because he'll have more time to work with the players and get them used to some of the things that we're trying to do. Ironically, he said he'd run them too.

21:09Yeah, run them, yeah. Some of these guys want a break, but he's going to run them during that break. Yeah, yeah. That'll be popular with them as well. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, well, I just wanted to finish by wrapping up a few of the other games, mainly to mention a stat. Manchester City first, as I said, Paul Hurst reporting in the Times, that it was largely serene for them against Galatasaray, a comfortable victory, a very comfortable victory for Liverpool. Just quickly on Mo Salah's tone, scoring, celebrating, arms out wide, all is forgiven for the rest of the season. Oh, there's a long way to go for Mo on what's happened this season, without a doubt.

21:40You don't think? He's come back, he's done OK, but no more than that. It's certainly nowhere near Mo Salah we've seen so much in every year. Now, everybody has a downturn in their performances, but Mo's have been really I think against Bournemouth when they lost first 15 minutes he looked really sharp and as the game wore on he got poorer and Liverpool lovely flick from Sir Boslow as well very clever I thought really nice but Mo's still got a lot of Liverpool fans who really believe he's a long way short of what we know he's capable of and he's going to have to find that in the second half of the season because give Arnie Slott his due he's brought him back from the African Nations and gone straight back into the team and a lot of managers wouldn't have done that you do wonder as well with him whether there's a bit of what we said a few weeks ago Gregor where you just kind of the Africa Cup of Nations was a good kind of gap go over there we'll all just forget about this big kind of argument that you've had we come back and we just pretend what argument what mixed zone quotes were we talking about he's come back and it's like nothing's ever happened it's worked out perfectly for them yeah it would be interesting as well to see Florian Wurz and Ekotike as well both taken off perhaps wondering starting to see that kind of new Liverpool era The stat I wanted to mention was from Tom Ede, who's an Arsenal fan, but who also works at Opta, who are the statisticians who work with us.

22:56He tweeted about the Arsenal's victory against the Kyra. Kai Havertz is the first Arsenal player to score against an opponent whose first three letters are the same as the first three letters of the first name since Lee Dixon against Leeds in 1996. How do you get that info? Yeah, I mean, there's some of these stats that you just think. Even if you wanted to try and disprove it, you're thinking, come on, scored against a Tambridge. And my first three initials. It's a good effort. It's a good effort. Do I score against Greece? No, sorry. It's a good effort. But it's so wonderful, isn't it? What a wonderfully pointless stat.

23:41Marseille, Henny. Marseille, yeah. Bill Edgar would have been applauded. Exactly. We'll mention Bill Edgar in just a second. but just to recap on the Champions League and I know it's very early days but Arsenal finishing top of the table a brilliant performance from them 100 % record by Munich just behind them anyone catch your eye or are we going to go into kind of too early to say PSG the good reminder from last year Real Madrid extra games do Arsenal go into the knockouts as favourites? they have to don't they? yeah I mean if you win the Champions League goal difference at 19 one every game yeah absolutely I just thought it was very interesting I saw a few of the headlines oh Kai Havertz is now back and ready to lead the line I'm thinking yeah I read that about Gabriel Jesus last week against Inter Milan and then he played against Manchester United and didn't get a kick so and Kai Havertz was the problem yeah exactly I'm not quite sure Arsenal have got in any of their three strikers a truly prolific goal scorer in the way that you know Harland's out on his own but even some of the other like Buemo and people I'm not sure they've got a truly prolific goalscorer but they are favourites I mean there are caveats to that like as I just said PSG you feel they have another gear Bayern like are ticking along and there's a lot of there's a lot of you know the conversation about the English dominance a part of that conversation is that when it gets to springtime the team seem like there seems to be like a fatigue because playing in the Premier League is harder than these major clubs playing in their own domestic leagues they can rest players they can you know they can beat them beat opposition with relative ease you can't do that in the Premier League Anthony Gordon was really interested this week actually speaking about the difference he was asked about the difference between playing in the Premier League and the Champions League and he almost sounded like he preferred the Champions League he's like the Premier League's becoming uber physical I was like you're right there Anthony it's like a bit of a game of basketball transitions set pieces long throws Champions League teams want to play he said, it's a bit like old football, it's like football used to be, so that is kind of backing up what we already sort of had suspicions of, that English teams often get to the tail end of the competition and they're a bit goosed.

26:04The one advantage that we've got as a collective this season is they've also changed the rules, once again, surprise, surprise, to benefit the rich and the elite. So how you finish in this table affects whether you play at home or not. So Arsenal play their cards right. They get the advantage of playing at home second for the rest of the tournament now. And that can only be taken away by the team that knocks you out. They then inherit your advantage. it's all coming up Arsenal in that respect you know winning the league is all coming up Arsenal see I would probably say for Arsenal is that to beat them twice over two legs because they've been so good away from home as well you know it's not like they're at the Emirates and you know they're going to beat everybody or seemingly so far until what happened last weekend but they're a very good two-legged team that's what they look like to me to some extent Arsenal's biggest threat is Arsenal like it's themselves like we've seen we've seen them have a wobble it's not a major wobble but they had a bit of a wobble and it's like how are they going to respond to that now because if they if they have that wobble domestically confidence isn't going to be you know soaring in the Champions League either so Arsenal keeping their own momentum and you know utilising the depth of their squad and you know almost seeing it through in the Premier League will help them in the Champions League too The other thing the only thing with Arsenal is you wonder like say that goal that they scored i think it was again was united um last sunday where you know it was another set piece and it was absolute carnage and you looked at that and you're thinking well this is impossible to referee because by the looks of it if you look at that six yard box there there's four fouls committed by arsenal players there's four fouls committed by manchester united players where do you where do you start with that everyone is just basically wrestling each other and it's complete carnage and the ball goes in the net and you almost define the referee to try and give something out of that because it makes no sense as a football match because there are so many fouls being committed by both sets.

28:22In Europe, I'm not sure you get away with that. Then you've got to score in open play and they're not big on scoring in open play and that's where they came unstuck. Apart from at home against Kairat and the various other teams. And that's where they came unstuck against PSG last year we were going Arsenal Arsenal look really good Arsenal look really good and then PSG scored you know a couple of goals against them and Arsenal in the end couldn't get it going from open play see that argument was made on international football that you know when you get to the elite teams you won't get away with decisions because referees in international football were way more likely to blow the whistle if you lifted your arm and you jumped against a defender straight away foul you know there's one of the problems we faced with Ireland.

29:06So there is an argument that the Champions League is a little bit reffed slightly different. I also think decisions are, I mean, they've always had an impact in the game, but not like they do now. There's way more decisions that you can go, you're gone. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, it's interesting you say about the fouls. People have cracked how to defend against Arsenal. They just do what Mateus Cunha did and just shove them off the pitch. Did you see that from the Man United game? Absolutely fantastic. I think it's Ben White and two players and Cunha just pushes them off the pitch into the side net.

29:35Because it's carnage, you can't really give it. You can't give that as a penalty because there's so much coming the other way. It's like, you tell me, where's the first foul committed in this? Yeah, absolutely. Well, Arsenal fans, if you think you are favourites for the Champions League or if you'd rather focus on the Premier League, get in touch with your views on the rest of your season. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. It's time for a little break. We've mentioned Bill Edgar and some wacky stats. He's back with his weekly quiz. so here's a question from it to take us into the break. It's Liverpool v Newcastle this weekend, but who scored a hat-trick for both of these teams against arguably their greatest rivals for Newcastle against Sunderland on New Year's Day in 1985 and for Liverpool against Manchester United in September 1990?

30:19Find out after the break.

30:46We'll see you next time.

30:50That's our commitment to you. Find the right furniture for you and your team at National Business Furniture. Visit nbf.com and use promo code POD10 to save 10 % now.

31:09Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson, Tony Cascarino and Martin Samuel, The man who loves a quiz. Loves a quiz. Straight in with the answer to the question, which was, he's going to make up a different answer now. It was Peter Beardsley. Peter Beardsley. Excellent. Wonderful stuff. Yeah, you can take part in Bill Edgar's quiz every week on the Times website. That's just one of the questions from it. Now, I wanted to start the second half of the show looking at two stories of recent weeks and how we've covered these topics.

31:41We're going to discuss the real Roy Keane and the person that we know behind the film shortly but first I wanted to talk about heading and football. This week we've obviously had Hayley McQueen who's called for professional footballers to have a brain scan before the start of every season after a coroner ruled that heading the ball was a likely factor in her father Gordon developing dementia. Martin Ziegler has been reporting on this for the Times website. The Sky Sports presenter McQueen said that the Premier League and Championship clubs could afford to pay for the scans which could spot any potential brain injuries early and that a fund could be set up to cover the costs in the lower leagues.

32:18She said there's, I think there's an epidemic at the moment. She was speaking on Kate Borset's show on Times Radio. We've got two men in the studio who quite literally got paid to head a football quite a lot of the time and was a big part of both of your games, I'd say. One of you trying to head it into there and one of you trying to head it as far away from it as possible. Just before, and we're also going to bring in, Gregor, your excellent feature from a few weeks ago on this exact topic, but just generally your views as former pros about this kind of situation that we found in the game in the last few years, the increasing focus on links between dementia and football and heading the ball?

32:53Yeah, I think it's going to be a major issue for football going forward. Like part of the, as I will come on to, part of the issue with this is it's a hugely complex area of research and actually not a great deal is known about actually definitively linking heading the ball to brain disease. There's big signs now and evidence is growing but it's still not definitive. That's a big part of it. And then there's a question about the way that football responds and cares for families who are caring for relatives. And ultimately then the question is about how you protect footballers from this in the future?

33:39And that's a big old question. Yeah. Tony, obviously, as I said, a huge part of your game, you're literally known for being a great header of the ball. As you've retired and your post-career life has taken hold, do you think about this a lot? Do you reflect on it? Does it scare you in any way? Yeah, more so probably about 10 years ago when I started to listen and hear what certain people were saying. Look, if you take it to America, where the NFL ended up paying a billion dollars to the ex-players and the process started in 1995 and didn't get a conclusion to 2013. So it took the best part of nearly 20 years and they paid a billion dollars out, which sounds an incredible amount of money, but when you dissect it all, it's actually very little to the ex-players.

34:27So we've been kicking this can down the road for a long time and I'm not sure how much is absolutely spot on information. Is that a fair point, Gregor? Because I think there's a lot of misconceptions. William Stewart, I spoke to probably a decade ago, and Dawn Astor, who's Jeff Astor's daughter. There's loads of theories of why. I mean, I was, you know, William Stewart actually said, look, because most people will say to us, yeah, when you played, the ball was heavier and wetter and it makes no difference at all. Well, yeah, because the argument is the quicker the ball, well, the velocity of a new ball now travels quicker and it doesn't need incredible impact to cause death of cells in your brain.

35:12So there's lots of issues around it and how much quicker... What are you losing? If you're taking it a percentage where people generally get dementia anyway, Alzheimer's, dementia, women and men, but what ages they get out. And footballers are quite clearly getting it earlier. So obviously brain cell death is happening and the link is obviously through football. So it's a really murky area. It's hugely complex because even then, as Tony's saying, this is a disease that's very prevalent in the general population. It's teasing out what other sort of factors like lifestyle, genetics, age, as Tony said, teasing out what is an effect from football, playing football, and then even actually what it is when you're playing football.

36:01so whether it's the heading of the ball, whether it's concussions you get from getting an elbow in the head, whether it's a whole host of factors. Johnny Owen, the boxer, Johnny Owen dies because his skull wasn't the same thickness as the average person's. That was the reason that when his head hit the canvas it had a more devastating effect on him than it might do other boxers who've been used. he's not the first boxer to be knocked cold and he's not the first boxer to take punishment but he had a different as you say genetic makeup his skull was was thinner in certain places than most people's so that made him vulnerable and that wasn't spotted so certainly if you're talking about brain scans for every player that is something that could without a doubt Can I just say one thing on that, Martin, is that a brain scan every year, it's a very slow process.

37:02You know, for lots of people like myself, I retired at 38 and I never really thought about any of this till I got to my late 40s and early 50s. And everyone is quite different. I've known people who have edited the ball all their life, like me, and have not had the consequences of what someone who, Gordon Cowens is not well at the moment. And it's well known that Gordon's not been well. Gordon never really headed the ball. So there's all these counter arguments. I don't know if the solution is every year. No, no. I totally understand that Hayley McQueen and her family are grieving and this has been a dramatic experience for them.

37:48I'm not sure what that would do. because the piece I wrote last week, a couple of weeks ago, was taking part in a study that's happening in central London, Advanced Brain Clinic. It's funded by the FA for players between 30 and 55 and then anyone older than that, the PFA Fund. So also I should say this is available now for anyone over the age of 30 who's played for three or more years as a footballer. You can go and get a proper assessment. If you have any concerns, or if you just want to take part in the study, because what's really interesting about it is all the data that's banked. So I had brain scans, I had my bloods taken, I did a raft of questionnaires and cognitive health assessments.

38:34Some of it was mind-bending stuff. And all of that is stored, and I go back again in two years, and they hope on an ongoing basis. And a big part of the problem with this is actually they don't know what they're looking for. so it's almost like Tony raised the NFL there there's work going on in Boston in America that's been groundbreaking stuff because the CTE which is the it's slightly different to dementia because there has been it's been proven now that that is just the result of being repeatedly hit in the head so other dementias it could be because you're a big drinker, it could be because of all the things I said before, genetics, lifestyle age ct is because of blows to the head that is a fact but you can't diagnose ct or you can't uh you know definitively say someone has ct until they're dead you can only do post-mortem so it's hugely difficult and you know people are like uh gordon mcqueen like jeff assell they donated their their brains yeah donated their brains to research and they've been found to have ct posthumously so that's really important because what they're doing there is studying the tissue looking for biomarkers and then they'll go back what what the difficulty has been historically is you're looking at the outcome and then trying to go back through their life and find out where this when this started to occur and why now with you know because the studies like the one i'm doing and others you have data already and if in 20 years time or if there's a discovery made in Boston or wherever and it illuminates something in the data that they've raised they've found in me and other players that's where you make a breakthrough and you can start to treat it so it's hugely hugely complex I will just come back to your tests in just a second I should have just said as well the Premier League and the EFL didn't respond directly to Hayley McQueen's comments but they did point out that all players undergo regular baseline tests for the sport concussion assessment tool which helps to detect and monitor concussions so that was the kind of direct response to some of the comments that were made tony you wanted to i just wanted to make um one point because when did you go gregor for your test you how long ago october and november i went i think okay and you're also aged now greg without 42 42 see i think i should have a test of being someone 20 years on from gregor because of the difference in that because it's such a slow process you know that obviously I would be far more likely to have an issue than Gregor at 42 because there are cases in rugby where rugby players who have had it way younger Geoff Vassel died at 59 a few years after his diagnosis Dean Windass was diagnosed last year at 55 stage 2 dementia so it does happen but Tony's right it's a a disease that's mainly diagnosed over the age of 65.

41:36Just very quickly, Tony, obviously we all read Gregor's excellent piece that we can keep talking about. Did you read it and think, I'm going to get that done, or did it make you a bit scared? Yeah, it did. But then I've got it both sides of my family. Again, going back to genetics, you look at your mum and your dad, and we just generally, I mean, loads of people have this sort of conversation about, I've had this with my sister, and my sister goes, we've got no chance. You know, our mum and dad had it. and then if you compound it with playing football and you know that that has accelerated to some degree, I'm still not quite sure on the percentages.

42:09It's quite mixed, isn't it? Well, I mean, a previous study said that you're five times more likely to develop Alzheimer's disease, four times more likely to suffer from motor neurones disease, and twice as likely to develop Parkinson's disease. So in the round, you're three and a half times more likely to develop dementia. And also, the longer your career was, the position you played will also change that if you're a goalkeeper your risk is far lower so that does point to evidence of heading and for one final thing, the people who are doing the study that I took part in they're possibly taking part in a really fascinating study into heading which is the mouth guards that are being used in rugby now they measure impact there's possibly going to be a trial in football which will measure the impact to heading so that could provide some really fascinating insights I just think that I've written this in the past I do think that it is possible that it could be 30 years time 40 years time 50 years time we look back at heading and think how is this ever allowed how is this ever allowed in the way that some sports some other sports have changed and they've brought in regulation and rules and you look back at you know the most obvious one you know bare knuckle boxing and and you look back and i think how the hell did no one work out that you should have some padding on your gloves you you shouldn't just be out of hit with bare knuckles and so things change and you look at that and and you look back to to what was allowed i think jesus that was barbaric and i've said to people but i think it could happen with heading i think you know if you came back 50 years from now, however long from now, you could maybe look at a sport in which you're not allowed to head the ball.

44:03Not without it bouncing first. No, I've said this to friends. I've even spoke to people like yourself. And I've said, if I get to 80, I don't think heading will be in the game. I've said that. So you think within 20 years? I think within 20 years because everything's accelerating so quickly on this. if it becomes liable and someone's going to have to pay then the game is going to have to change I'd take a different view personally I think possibly there will be changes to the way the game's played it's already happening children under age 11 aren't allowed to head the ball there's a limit to the number of times you can head the ball in training how that's placed is very challenging that's true of Premier League teams there's a set number of times they're supposed to be able to head the ball now so you read the ball badly then?

44:56what I would say is the test the trial that I just mentioned there which involves a sensor and others like technology will play a part in this if that shows that head in the ball from a 50 yard goal kick is dangerous or damaging then you could tweak the laws to say you can't kick it 50 yards from a goal kick you could do things that will change the regulations a little bit so I think there will be an outcry if heading's banned from football. Oh, it's a different sport. Yeah, I think it would be damaging for the game. And I think that if... Also, you hear a lot of people who... No, I've ever spoke the heads of the ball.

45:33No, but you hear a lot of people who say, I headed the ball 70 ,000 times in my career, whatever. 65 ,000 of them were in training, probably. So that's a big part of it. Cut that out, you're halfway there. And then you make tweaks to the laws to make it safer. But it becomes a different game. It will become a different game. I'm absolutely convinced of that. Just finally on that, because I'm sure listeners would be interested. Obviously, you can read your piece, which is headline, did heading the ball for 15 years damage my brain. I went to test it. What was the kind of conclusions, if you don't mind sharing?

46:06Obviously, you can say, no, bugger off, go and read the piece if you want. No, I mean, like I said at the start, you know, into my 40s, I've got a one-year-old daughter who's, you know, I'm sleep-deprived as a result. I find my memory ailing a little bit. And so there was just a small part of me thinking, could this be? Because you see every few months a player. Yeah. It's every few months a player. There's someone in the news heading, you know, it leads to dementia or whatever. I think suddenly I'm sort of thinking, I'm no different to that. So why couldn't it be? So that was part of the reason.

46:39But another reason was because of the study. And I think it looks really interesting and important. I was fine. like there was no evidence of anything either in my test in like my scans, bloods, anything like that but as I said they actually don't really know what they're looking for so there could be a moment down the line where it's really useful where like there's a discovery and someone says actually there's signs of this developing now you know I think that would be good for me and for any other former footballer yeah absolutely really fascinating but if it continues to do it you can always go and work for FIFA very good point martin you can go and read gregor's piece on the times website search for his name and that headline that i just mentioned a few moments ago i wanted to talk about other content that we've had on the times website around a different subject within the game one of the more famous incidents of the last 20 years let's say on more sorry uh the film saipan that has come out about roy keen and mick mccarthy and the world cup tony and martin you've both written about this um Tony I'm going to start with you your piece uh having gone to the premiere to watch the film uh was headlined new film mythologizes Roy Keane and Mick McCarthy I knew and I wanted to kind of focus on the slight Roy Keane part of this as well particularly because he's such a big figure in the modern game well he was in the film and he's a huge figure in the film but what did you think about the film with in comparison with the person that you knew from playing days with island well i i the first thing that struck me was that how professional they made roy be in the film and he wasn't you know in 94 you know we went out a lot in world cup in the usa and roy was there all the time and and okay he had his battles in his life over drink and that's been he's been he's admitted that himself and the challenges but also the how unprofessional that roy had been in his that he didn't touch on as an assistant manager.

48:31There was many fallouts with players, whether it was Jonathan Walters, Aidan McGeady, Stephen Ward. There was a number of them, and also happened as a manager of fallouts. So this ultra-professional, which was, I just felt... Is it fair to say, though, that that's who Roy Keane was at that moment in time? Yeah, that's a fair... I'd agree with that, Gregor, yeah. You've had his injuries. Roy came into our squad, and he was quieter. there was a lot of characters. This was earlier in the... Early on. This is like, yeah, the Jack Charlton 92 and onwards. And the moment we all started retiring and Roy become a bigger player and the stature of what he was at Manchester United and also, look, I know quite a lot of players who play for Man United.

49:16So who had already spoke about Roy at Man U and he had a side pan himself at Manchester United, didn't he? He didn't have one side pan, he had two because of the way that Manchester United fell apart and the way he was dismissed. It was exactly the same, you know. And there was a lot of stories that I knew weren't 100 % true, as in the way that Roy insulted Mick. And I always knew that Mick and him were always, they weren't loggerheads. Mick always tried to appease Roy because he had to. He was his best player. It was very divided in Ireland, but you probably, you know, there were people who understood how difficult a job it was for Mick and I was one of them because Roy could be difficult and could make it awkward for you.

50:01And there wasn't much love there. That was quite clear. But depicting Mick as a weak manager or, you know, just someone who just appeased everybody or especially Roy, I thought was wrong and harsh on Mick. Mick was a tough lad. He could look after himself. And he, you know, I spoke to quite a number of players last week who I played with who were in 2002. who, like Noel Quinn said, you know, depicted as, you know, walking around with a bottle all the time. He said, we went out one night in Saipan, and it was a darts night. He said, and Roy came along that night. So he said, this making out, it was like a Beano trip.

50:35He said, we drunk way more in 94, which we did, you know, and went out together. So it was a bit of a mixed feeling of how much is true about what Roy, Roy could be difficult. You know, the bit around the swimming pool, where you see Roy and a player comes up to him and just chats and Stephen Reid comes up and they'll have a swing. And he'll go on then, go and have a swing. Get out of my way, really. Roy was like that, generally. I said in the piece that one day on my head beach, walking along and I'm just talking about Manchester United, and said, how's it going? I don't know who's talking to me on a Monday morning.

51:15I can't remember who. When I go in the dressing room, I can't remember who's talking to me and who's okay with me. I sort of get reminded when I get in the dressing room. Because he regularly had these breakdowns with players, whether it was Michael, Pallister, Sheridan and others. That was Roy. So without me having a real bias, I felt Mick was a bit unfairly treated. And I think Martin alluded in his piece a similar thing of how Mick was depicting. Yeah, I thought that. I mean, Mick comes across at some times. You're looking at it and thinking, well, this is how it is. Because he's played by Steve Coogan.

51:48You're looking at it and thinking, well this is Alan Partridge he's not playing Mick McCarthy I've known Mick McCarthy since he was at Man City and this is not this is not the Mick McCarthy that I know not Fiona either by the way his wife and I just I just thought that certain things about the dynamic you know Steve Coogan is is smaller than you know than Roy Keane in the film Mick McCarthy is smaller than Roy Keane so he's he's a young fella sort of towering over him and he's sort of shrinking into himself. You know, Mick McCarthy is taller than Roy Keane. In real life, Mick McCarthy is taller than Roy Keane.

52:266 '1", 6 '2". Yeah, and you just look to all of these little things. What the film is about is the sort of Irishness of it and the Irishness. So the final confrontation between the two men is all about Irishness and stuff. And when you talk to people who were there, Kevin Kilbane wrote a piece in the Irish Times and he said, apart from referring to Ireland as my country, Roy Keane said to him, you shouldn't be manager of my country. There's no, there's all the stuff about the English and if the English had walked out of that Irish dressing room, they're left with 12 players for the World Cup. There was 11 English players, 11 English-born players.

53:11So the idea of Mick McCarthy as Ireland manager isn't, you know, it's not as irrational as it seems. And by the sounds of it, and Tony would know the various people who were there, the final rant between the two, you know, between the two men, it wasn't all about Englishness and everything like that. It was one throwaway line. In the way, by the way, if someone drives straight into the back of you and you get out and the fella's got glasses, somebody might turn around and say, you're stupid, four-eyed, whatever. Actually, the fact that the person's got glasses isn't the real problem. The real problem is they've just driven straight in the back of your car.

53:54You know, people pick on stuff when they're annoyed. Yeah. Do you know what I mean? And that's what it sounded. It didn't sound, you know, when you talk to people who were there for that final confrontation, it didn't sound as if that was the overarching problem. We know what the final words were, don't you? Well, it says Mick. Mick says, look, either I go or you go. and I ain't going nowhere. And then Roy leaves. That was what I was told by a number of players. That was the final words between the two. Yeah, fascinating insights. You might hear Tony Cascarino's phone buzzing in the background.

54:24I think it's Roy Keane. It might be mine. It might be mine, actually. I have received a call from Roy. It's a message from Joe Hand. He's our deputy sports editor. He's upstairs, you know. Far less interesting than Roy Keane. But a fascinating subject and a fascinating insight into the real Roy Keane. I just wanted to quickly finish with a whiz through of the weekend's action. We've got some really big games. Hey, Martin, West Ham signing players, winning games. The great escape is on. Oh, mate, look, don't get me started. I mean, it's... No, I won't then. We'll leave it with you. It will be...

54:58Chelsea away, this is perfect. What I would say is I didn't notice any great problem at the London Stadium on Saturday when West Ham were winning 3-1. I do think, you know, with a lot of these teams, oh, they've got problems with the stadium and they hate the ball and they hate this one and they hate that one. Once you start winning football matches, you know, everyone lightens up a little bit and they go, oh, OK, it's all right. But you've been very, I would say confident is the wrong word, but you've been saying that West Ham are doomed for a while. Yes. Still think they've got a chance now or still think they do?

55:28They've got a chance. Of course they've got a chance, but... A glimmer of hope in his eye, listeners, you can see it. No, no, no, no, no. But I do think that it's going to be very, very tough because, funnily enough, West Ham beats Sunderland but then of course Nottingham Forest won and Leeds got a point at Everton it's fascinating down the bottom isn't it really the problem is that when you're that far behind you need other teams to do you a favour as well well Leeds at home against Arsenal this weekend Tottenham Manchester City Manchester United Michael Carrick this is the real test he's had the two big games now they've got Fulham at home Harry Wilson and Fulham that's the real test we'll be reporting it all on the Times website this west ham chelsea we got west ham proper west ham chelsea sofa yeah um it's the martin samuel family derby because yeah it is because we've got my missus and my oldest lad who are both chelsea me and my two other boys are west ham so we and everyone is everyone is why did your one son go for chelsea i've asked this question yeah is it complex yeah well because Because his mum is very persuasive and because we absolutely sold, at that time, we sold all of our players to Chelsea.

56:45So, you know, Frank Lampard, Glenn Johnson, Joe Cole, everyone went to Chelsea. So she's in his ear all the time going, come over to Chelsea, come over to Chelsea. Got all the West Ham players anyway. He's probably had a happier life as a result. Yeah, exactly. Not at the moment, you know, he's raging every two minutes at the moment in the last couple of years. but yeah we're three to ahead I should have pitched this earlier to producer Neil the game podcast live with the Samuel family for Chelsea it's a very underrated place to watch the football the sofa you know there was a Sports Illustrated did a piece underrated overrated one of their famous issues and they went all different aspects of sport who's the most overrated tennis player I think the big headline was they said Steffi Graf was the most overrated tennis player that there's ever been.

57:39But one of the sections was the most overrated place to watch the match and the most underrated place to watch the match. And the most overrated place to watch the match was in the ground. And the most underrated place to watch the match was on the sofa. And there were days when you agree with that because we couldn't all scream at the television. You couldn't all shout and holler if you were one of the two stadiums because two of you or three of you you'll get your head kicked in. You know, because you'd all be sitting in a low with two support. So the sofa is the perfect safe spot to watch the old version.

58:12Or if you're watching the Gold Shark and see Gregor seething in the background. Well, whether you're watching the games this weekend from your sofa or in the ground, I hope you enjoy yourselves. We'll leave it there. Tony Cascarino, Gregor Robinson and Martin Samuel, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

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