This is how Arsenal can beat PSG?

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0:36Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Arsenal are into the Champions League final for only the second time in their history, but they will have to beat holders Paris Saint-Germain if they are to win this prestigious competition. On today's show, we'll discuss two intriguing semi-final second legs, reflect on Manchester City's crazy 3-3 draw with Everton, discuss another dismal defeat for Chelsea and much, much more as we gear up for another decisive weekend in the Premier League. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior correspondent for The Times and The Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former Gillingham, Aston Villa and Chelsea striker Tony Cascarino and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is alongside me.

1:16As usual, team, how are we? Good, good, really good. Tone, how do you feel about that? I threw in some other teams into your show today. You went Gillingham rather than Millwall, just keep you on your toes. Yeah, well, they all started for me, Gillian. Exactly. And it was the longest club I ever played. Exactly, there you go. Well, in terms of the night. And the most goals I ever scored. Most goals ever scored, exactly. And the most losses I had. Yeah, exactly. Covers all ground. So, yeah, that's a perfect way to start the show, I'd say. Let's start with Arsenal. What a week for Arsenal. Mikel Arteta.

1:45All Arsenal fans will be desperate to tune into this show, I'm sure. Martin, I'm going to start with you. You were at the game on Tuesday night. You wrote a brilliant match report, kind of summed up everyone's feelings, I think, and probably all Arsenal fans still feeling. It's on. Arsenal's most successful season ever is still on. The double is still very much on. We're going to talk about what happened on Monday night, of course, and we'll talk about the Premier League in the second half of the show. They're into a Champions League final for only the second time, and fully deserved, I thought.

2:11And fully deserved, yeah. They were the best team over the two leagues, I thought. I thought they were very good. I think they've been very good since the Man City, including the Man City defeat, in fact. which is strange to have a defeat as a turning point. But I think since then, I think their performance that game was better than the result would suggest. They got hit by Man City, they're big rivals. Everyone said, oh, this is it, they've blown the title. But actually they played very well that day. Since then, I've been impressed. It was a solid result in Madrid for them. And that was a great performance.

2:46And the place was buzzing. And there was, you know, usually you go to the Emirates and these sort of situations and it's torturous. Everyone's like, you know, everyone's stressed beyond all belief or whatever. But there was this real emotion about the place and a real uplift and this sense that, you know, they were on the verge of something big and that they had the confidence to do it. Now, whether that comes in part from the fact that Man City messed up against Everton. Yes, maybe. be. There's a little bit of that. Maybe if Man City have beaten Everton 3-0, it would still be in the balance a little bit more in people's minds.

3:28But it was a fantastic place to be on Tuesday. It's really interesting, isn't it? You think about that positivity, guys. Martin talking about being in the Emirates and having that feeling. We talk so often about emotion with Arsenal and Mikel Arteta and his players and things. And a lot of suggestions that maybe that is slightly their downfall but it doesn't seem to be now does it it is quite unique and remarkable to they had that moment draw with Wolves defeat against Bournemouth and everyone starts including us start going oh gosh it's happening again to have turned it back around Gregor obviously they've not won anything yet but to have turned it back around is pretty remarkable it is yeah it's been a transformation in the space of a fortnight I mean you've got to think that the City defeat was the fourth in six games yeah and they lost three in their previous 49 this season so it was like they were on the verge of like the old bottling was coming out again and are they going to collapse at the kind of at the end of the final stages I think that when they beat Newcastle 1-0 after that too it was like a weight was lifted it was like okay they're still life in us they're still life in us and then the Atletico first leg was like nip and tuck weren't much in it they worked hard they were gritty they matched Atletico the 3-0 against since the 3-0 win against Fulham I think it's a lot of it's been about individuals I think the return of Saka from injury Myles Lewis-Galey sort of coming in from Siberia was just like an instinctive move by Arteta Calafiore at left back yeah Trossard has found real form again after a bit of a dent and then Giochrez has got rewards for all his hard work and perseverance and I think Declan Rice spoke about it afterwards he said we've just found rotations again and a bit of freedom Even Ben White and Saka as well down the right inside.

5:16Two players who've played together a lot and know each other really well, as much as people might talk about Ben White's defensively. Gregor, you brought up a lot of themes there and individuals that I want to come back to in detail. But Tony, just your general view on Arsenal, as I said, some of the points that the guys have made there. Well, you've left me nothing to talk about. You'll always find something, Tony. You'll always find something. I thought the Fulham game was a big victory because they were three-nil up, so really by half-time, wasn't it? Three-nil up. And then can make changes to that 3-0 team that we're winning.

5:46And within that, there was real solid performances. It wasn't unbelievable like we saw with PSG Bayern performances where we were literally waxing lyrical about how great some of them were. But real solid ones. Jokeres is an interesting one. Because as a centre forward and you're being isolated, he's led the line brilliantly well. And one of the main guys I've always said that I try to replicate in some way because he was a terrific player but led the line brilliantly was Alan Smith at Arsenal. He was one of them that he could bring people into the game. He wasn't Van Persie, he wasn't Henry, but he was, that's where the Jokeres role has become really interesting.

6:26I was looking at centre forwards in the last few days about who have been pivotal to teams that are really good but have not been really great themselves. If you go back to France win the World Cup with Fivash, you know, that type of player. Baros with Liverpool when they won the Champions League in 2005. Olivier Giroud made a bit of a career out of it He was another one No, another one that You know And I feel like he falls into that role Yeah Where he just does a real solid job And I don't know if he Have they been working But he looks half a yard quicker I don't know if that's from the confidence I think part of us Having a bit more space to run into As well in some of these games Like a lot of the time A lot of the season His biggest challenge has been Finding space Being in congested areas Like just around the edge of the box And he's not really that He's a hold-up player he's not a link-up player and so he's looked out of place for so long and as I say it's a big imagine the noise that Arsenal have had to block out this season it's been extraordinary all the players have referenced that we just block out the noise imagine what he's had to put up with he needs some heavy duty here defenders to block out and he's still going to be hearing about it in his first season at Arsenal and so to get this kind of flourish is great credit to him I still have to say I've watched this game and I'm still not sure is the answer even in the medium term going forward he works so hard some of these runs are really intelligent but there's moments where he's on the ball and you think he's miles off do you think you talk about the answer there the question then you're talking about him being the wrong answer to is Arsenal a goal scorer and an Arsenal player could it be that we just refit the question then and therefore he does become the answer that at this point in this stage of the season in these games you need an outlet and Saka's suddenly back so you can play and Trossard's in form so you've suddenly got the guys playing just behind you who can get the goals.

8:14The question becomes different. Last season, the question was, Arsenal need a goal scorer to score 20 goals, which, by the way, he's got. He's got 21 goals this season. I mean, is that not part of it that we need to just refit how we think of him in order to appreciate him a bit more? Look, there will be no refit of anything if they win the Champions League and the Premier League or even one of those competitions. Like, it will have been... He's called hero for life. He was a win-now signing and that's what he's done. And that's what they've done. But all I'm saying is you cannot be at Arsenal number nine and your sole responsibility is making other players look good.

8:49Not even in a Mikel Arteta team? No, I don't think so. I don't think in the long term. I think, as I say, he made some really intelligent runs. He worked so hard. He wrestled. He's not had that much success against a lot of Premier League defenders this season. We have to say that. But he was brilliant at wrestling and battling and winning and fouls and stuff. But there were some moments that even then Jardini, In the start of the second half, there was a bouncing ball and he was holding the defender off. And he had a chance to bring it down, he just let it bounce again and kept wrestling. Bring it down and bring something to play.

9:22Obsessed with the wrestling. His physicality is his main strength. And when he gets the ball to his feet, sometimes he just looks out of place. Yeah, I would add in, only because it's purely the amount of centre forwards I've had this conversation with, that when you start scoring and getting belief in your game, that even having the fans on your side, because, you know, I found my struggles when I didn't place a well, people question you, and then you don't deliver as often as you should do. Then there's the pressure, which is all the norm for everybody in a side. But once you start getting the fans on their side, you know, the fans have been really good to him.

9:56They want him to do well. Do you remember when, you know, Shevchenko was at Chelsea and Torres went to Chelsea? Fans are willing to centre forward on because they know that he's a great player in there. And I think he's had that effect on him. He's just finding a bit more. Martin, you thought you were impressed with him on Tuesday? I was. I was very impressed. I've been impressed with him a few times lately. I'm just reminded a little bit of, I can remember when Bobby Firmino went to Liverpool. And again, he wasn't scoring goals. And I remember talking to someone at Liverpool and going, yeah, but you've got to look at his numbers.

10:35And the numbers they were talking about was that he was closing down the opposition even more than Suarez. And Suarez was exceptional, worked exceptionally hard. And they were going, look, look at Firmino's numbers. Look at how many times we get the ball from him, from this press, from this and this and this. Now, Gheokwiz, I thought for the first goal, I thought it was fabulous playing, the way that he took it slightly wider. So the goalkeeper now has got to either commit himself and be completely out of position or he's got to start to go home. I thought he was good. I agree. Look, if they win the Champions League or if they win the Premier League, and most certainly if they win both of them, you can't argue against the guy they brought as a centre forward.

11:23if they end up doing exactly what they brought him in to do. Now, are there better centre forwards out there? Yeah, there probably are. If they had Erling Haaland up front, for instance, maybe if they had Dembele up front, I don't know. But yeah, there are better centre forwards out there. But he's doing what they wanted him to do. It's a fascinating narrative. And if they get a penalty, there's nobody. takes a binding penalty you'd rather take you know there's no one in football at the moment you'd rather take in English football it was Cole Palmer and now Cole Palmer I've seen him miss a couple in the last year or so this guy hasn't missed for 17 something like that 14, 17 the one thing you say again this is to give him credit you look through his career and he's been doubted all the way he was doubted at Brighton there was no avenue to the first team went on loan to Coventry he was actually down to Coventry when they signed bought him for a million people were looking at him like ADV Vash Mark Robbins long term assistant was like are we sure about this you know this is a big chunk of our budget and he went yeah I'm sure signed him after time developed and found his feet and scored a bag full of goals went to sport and he's obviously been on fire but like he's clearly got like a laser focus on getting better every day he speak to like apparently he's a nightmare to work with like if you're a coach in training he's always moaning he's always like doesn't want to come off the training ground he hate if you've if he's got a drill that doesn't doesn't like accentuate what he's good at he hates it you know he just wants to be running into space and shooting like so if he's if there's a chance for him to make his arsenal career a success he'll do everything he can and like i would give him great credit for doing so yeah i'm just not sure he's Arsenal's long-term future.

13:20Cult figure, Arsenal hero. I'm telling you, it'll happen one day. Let's bring in some of the other players. We've talked a lot about Jokoraz there, and understandably so. It's a fascinating storyline of this season. Bukayo Saka. I mean, has there ever been an instantaneous vibe lift from a player being back? I mean, there's a reason they call him Starboy, isn't there? He's only playing 45 minutes, and the whole place is like, chest out, like, yes, we're back. I mean, and the goal as well. I thought for the goal, Tony, I wanted to ask you about this because his movement for the goal. He's thinking quicker.

13:50He's going, I'm... His reaction is like a forward shot. Jocker hasn't moved away and he's like, someone needs to be in there. Yeah, yeah. And he was right there. Go on, Tony. See, I was on radio a couple of weeks ago talking and I couldn't understand the reaction to Saka. I was like, everyone keeps saying he's not had a good season. Arsenal fans were phoning in and I talked to a fan and they went, oh, he's been... Well, OK, there's one thing being not as good as last year. And there's another thing being not very good at all this year. And I thought that's grossly unfair. I thought he started the season really well, got a number of goals early on.

14:23He's had a bit of a dip and he's obviously been carrying an injury throughout the season. I couldn't get the narrative of Saka's not quite as good this year. And I was so delighted for him because he's a real threat and he's always wanting the ball. Whatever you say about Saka, he always will take it. He's left foot in a second and his right foot in a second. He'll go either way. and that ability to deliver. And his numbers are still good. It also changes how the opposition approach our... And his relationship with Ben White and whoever's there. These final games, just him being in the team sheet, I think, as well.

14:56Yeah, ultimate example of someone who lifts all boats around them. He's got a big smile on his face all the time. And you're right about Ben White. There was a great pass in the first half where he just knew each other. He just checked and went in behind the full-back and Ben White said a perfectly weighted ball in behind. like you know Timber's been really good this season but you do you sort of just the last couple of weeks you're just remembering how good they were together as a year yeah so a few of those things are just coming together at this time sometimes it's like this comes from nowhere like as I say when you put when you put Lewis Skelly in when like even though even they're changing up the set pieces it just smacks to me of a manager in Arteta who's looked around after that run and like we need to change something what can we change and it's worked so like He deserves huge credit as well.

15:42Yeah, absolutely. It's working. And when it happens, when it all comes together like that, everything you do is right as well. So everything about Arteta that people saw as, oh, it's negative, he's too nervous, he's too this, he's too that. Too much on the touchline. Too much on the touchline or whatever. Now it looks fantastic because he's got this enormous energy. The crowd have got this enormous energy. and the team were winning. So suddenly it all looks as if that's all joined up. And I've got to admit, the one thing I do like about Arte and about, I think Guardiola is similar and a few of the modern managers.

16:24When he scores, it looks like it actually means something. He celebrates like you should do. Arsenal score, which is what they've been working all week, every single day you go into work, that's what you're actually working to achieve is a goal. And they score and it looks like it. It looks like he goes nuts. This is what we've been working for all week. I will always relate to that much more than I will relate to Rafa Benitez sitting there with his legs crossed, making a little note. I always looked at that and thought, if that was me on the touchline, I would that looks far more like an act than Alan Pardew's dance in the FA Cup you know they've just gone 1-0 up in the FA Cup final you know he's done a silly dance that seems a lot more natural to me than sitting there yeah making notes making notes about the left back when you've yeah about something that happened 10 minutes ago when you've just gone 1-0 up in a cup final yeah scoring a goal is the biggest elation you'll ever get Absolutely.

17:38Yeah. We can cut this out if you want, what I'm going to say now. I think I know what you're going to say. Go on. What am I going to say then? No, go on. Go on. I'm not going to say it twice. Scoring a goal is... People used to associate it with sex, didn't they? Yeah. Well, I always consider it more like... It's a great relief.

17:59Sorry. To you guys. It's a new guy. No. That is exactly what I knew you were going to say. because he's told me that story at least five times in 10 years that I've worked with Tony Kessler. Moving on. They definitely enjoyed it though, didn't they? Definitely enjoyed it. And one player that everyone I think has been enjoying all season. We're talking about Rice coming back, we're talking about Jocheres finding form, Declan Rice. Oh, here we go. I mean, Germany at Langs has got there. Good news me. I mean, it is remarkable, isn't it? Martin, you wrote about him recently in your Monday Morning Online column about him kind of assuming this role that has been so often given to Rodri in recent years.

18:36He is the pinnacle of the midfield general, Declan Rice now. I mean, the energy levels are ludicrous. I hope he's got some left for England in the World Cup, by the way, is the only thing. But let's just focus on this for now. Is he your player of the season, Martin, would you say? Yeah. I mean, if Arsenal win, it's a strange thing, player of the season, because if Man City were to win the league, or Man City could potentially do the treble, if something like that happened it would be really quite difficult to pick a Manchester City player that was the footballer of the year because it's This is what we're talking about with Monday Alison was making this point and that's why we kind of kind of as a group came back to Bruno Fernandes but I then had a lot of listeners get in touch saying Raya, Rice, Gabriel understandably so so that's why it's kind of coming back to you on Arsenal I saw Rice and Gabriel and I would say Declan Rice.

19:34I just think his improvement as a player, his influence on matches, the dead ball deliveries that got them off to this flyer at the start of the season. And now you just see, look, the way that, the point I was making on Monday was the way that, I mean, Lewis Skelly had a great game against Fulham and everyone was, you know, was lording Lewis Skelly. but you've got to look at the guy alongside him. So this teenager can come into the team, very, very gifted teenager, but he has never played that, although that's his position in age group football, he's never played it in the senior side. He's been there left back.

20:15So he's come in and you've got to think there's a guy alongside him that will be talking him through it and working with him all the way through. We've all seen it in the way that Mark Noble did at West Ham with Declan Weiss. When Declan Weiss first came in the team, he was next to Mark Noble. It made a huge difference. He said about that. Yeah, absolutely. About Noble's influence. I want to bring in PSG and Bayern now, and I'm going to do so by just quickly mentioning some of the refereeing decisions in both of these games, because I thought it was interesting, Martin, you referred to it in your Arsenal match report, that the referees seem to be kind of letting a few more things slide.

20:49There was a little bit less scrutiny and forensic nick-picking over some of the tackles. You seem to be refereed by a different set of rules to the first. Exactly. I mean you know I also found it quite funny it was Daniel Siebert in the Arsenal game and I was wondering as well about very strong gesticulations and I was wondering about how that plays a part in VAR because if you've done that you don't want to overturn it do you? You look a bit stupid You might go and be like why? Yeah You went a bit strong on that one No no I can't go back now I went for the big I went for the big But I mean They were fortunate with that one I was going to say They were They definitely were because The Gabriel one Yeah Yeah yeah You know you watch a few replays and I didn't see a foul really.

21:28Those two players kind of jump into a half, like a challenge that was never going to be a full challenge. It was like a half block, half tackle. Ball bounced loose and he gave the foul before there was a clear penalty. And so, and the ref could have gone and, you know, there was this sort of misconception that because he gave the foul he could have gone if he'd been asked, if he'd been advised to go to the monitor and check it. So they got away with that one but they deserved to win. And then bringing in the handballs and the incidents that we saw in Bayern Munich PSG because they were a big part of that game, a very tight game of course, 1-0 Gregor you've talked so often Antonio all of us have about this handball law like this didn't seem to conform to kind of what were our expectations of handball as Martin's just said but we can't have it both ways can we we can't slag off the handball all the time you can have it both ways that's literally your catchphrase both things can be true I don't think any of us would want Nuno Mendes we don't want Nuno Mendes to be sent off for that handball either and we don't want a penalty given for that handball either although it was like it was pretty blatant but you know so that as long as we can realise that that's okay yes there have been slightly there have been sort of like divergences away from the only thing is that you then hope that into the final this is maybe continued and you don't then get a final that is decided by some bloke stood looking at a screen for 20 minutes and going I think he's just touched him actually the referee Pinheiro he refereed the and he let a lot go in that too he's refereed that like it was 1972 I'm on for it I'm on for it people are like going leg breaking tackles the one on the one by Anderson on Oli Watkins could have snapped his leg in half and the referee it's almost as if they've gone look this is between two English teams it's not like normal football you know they're going to do stuff that you know everyone will get arrested if they did it in Portugal just leave them to it but just leave them to it as long as no one's dead it's probably not a foul.

23:27Right. And that is it. It is just, we play this different set of rules to the rest of Europe, really. I mean, when it's in our football, and that's the bizarre thing because it's such a cosmopolitan game. It's not like there's 11 Englishmen against 11 Englishmen. There's all these people and they come into our game and someone goes to them, oh, by the way, it's not the same rules as you'd be used to. We just kick lumps out of each other and referee go it's just the one. Fingers crossed decisions like tight calls from referees aren't a big part of the final but let's bring in PSG beating Bayern and I think Tony this was another example of the other side of PSG which lauded them so much for their brilliance going forward but as we've said a couple of times in this competition I think after the Liverpool second leg at Anfield as well they're brilliant defensively as well.

24:15Yeah and that was ultimately the difference because if you look at the Bayern back four and how much trouble they got in during the game PSG especially with Marquinhos Paka and, you know, just really... Could have been more than 1-0, do we think, then? Well, it could have been. Yeah, it could have been. I mean, look, when I look at Marquinhos, when I look at you sometimes to talk about experience, someone who knows their job, who knows where to be, will just stop an attack. And it looks quite simple. That's just good defending. And he'd done it numerous times. I mean, the goal that Luis Diaz got against him the week before, and there was some, and I included, looked at him and thought, cool, Marquinhos, never seen him being beaten by that.

24:50But then it was an unbelievable Brilliant bit of play Have you given him a chance to defend I talked about Marquinhos About a year ago Saying If Chelsea need an experienced guy Which they clearly didn't want to look at At the experience side of it Marquinhos would be the guy Because he's 31 He's 32 Very soon But boy did he defend And he leads And he's not the biggest No You look at him And you just think He just knows what to do Let's just Remember you know You're saying this is a reminder That PSG can defend people were losing their minds after the first time. Absolutely. Where's the defending?

25:23They can't defend the goals. Brilliant goals as well. They were brilliant goals. They can defend. They don't defend in quite the state. This was a bit more sort of orthodox. They were a bit more behind the ball than they normally are. But they didn't just sit back. Always. They'd never have a Bayern player who could just take their time on the ball. There was always someone going to press them in an instant. And that was like to the very last minute. There was a moment like getting into injury time. and it's like it was a weird one the ball was kind of the camera was kind of focused on midfield and all you saw was Vitinha just head down Rutt came in took shot from the right and just ran back he was just running back in a straight line because he realised there was a space like right in the last moment and they're all like again Kvartic-Gellia just the way he works defensively as well I mean you saw him in the first half some of his buccaneering Rutt Well he got left out the other side of the game my God all of them he got left out a certain period of the season with PSG because he wasn't doing that quite as well and he's come back from that and played really I thought Mendes handed Alise as well really well because he got a real hard time in that game and having Ruiz in the team too that kind of he was played a bit more to the left than normal because usually his IRM and he obviously plays in there and he would have Hakimi he would give him a bit more cover and then that was where the goal came from it was a great move that first time pass down the line beautiful Alise maybe feeling the pressure of too much hype from Gregor Roberts and Tony I think he's been listening to this podcast but Tony mentioned Chelsea there and like we're halfway through the first half or whenever it was and I've got a text from one of my lads and one of the Chelsea fans saying we need Marquinhos to do a Thiago Silva for us for the next three or four years and you're thinking yeah that is absolutely what Chelsea need they need somebody not sure about how Marquinhos would feel about joining a team that finishes 10th but anyway we're going to talk a bit about Chelsea in the second half of the show go on mate it's absolutely that type that sort of player that player with that experience.

27:18Street-wise. That goal that they concede to Bayern Munich is the first goal they've conceded away from home in six matches. Yeah, yeah. And we can argue about the strength of League One and all of this sort of stuff, but that's not a bad one. It's not as if League One hasn't got any players. Yeah. And there'll be European matches in that as well. They're not mugs. Yeah. They're really not mugs. So, I mean, this is the question that's kind of hanging over already. Arsenal got any chance in this one? I mean, that's a silly way of phrasing the question, but, I mean, PSG are looking pretty imperious.

27:55Yeah, I would... Look, anyone who can defend has always got a chance, and we all know that the Arsenal back line is really good. I do think I'd have an issue with Cavasquilla up against Ben White. I think Ben White would have to be... Arte actually try and smuggle Timber on the pitch as well, shouldn't he? So, he'd play Timber as the defensive, and then, you know, be like American football, tag him in and out. I mean, you can't just go because PSG are that good. In a one-off game, it's all cliched stuff, but you have got a chance. If Arsenal, I don't fancy the PSG goalkeeper at all. I don't think that Savinoff is a particularly great goalkeeper.

28:27And Arsenal are good at set pieces. They'll get balls into certain areas. I think Jokic will give Marquinhos a bit more of an issue than, say, because Kane dropped off a lot last night. And you saw Musiala get forward in positions. But Musiala was off his game and didn't really cause any problems to the PSG back line, which I think Arsenal will do. They will cause them a bit more problems. There's not a single Bayern Munich defender that will get in Arsenal's team. Yeah. I mean, this is the way I look at it. There's not a single Bayern Munich defender will get in Arsenal's team. Declan Rice will walk into Bayern Munich's team.

29:05I think Zubimendi will probably get in there as well. And Zubimendi can't get into Arsenal's team at the moment because of Louis Skelly. So I think Arsenal's defensive unit is much stronger than Bayern Munich's. Now, their attacking unit versus Paris Saint-Germain, anyone's attacking unit versus Paris Saint-Germain, could come up short. But defensively, if you had to back any team in that competition to nullify PSG, you'd probably back Arsenal. With Saliba and Gabriel on the pitch together Arsenal haven't conceded a goal from open play in the Champions League since April 2024. That's a good start.

29:52That's a good start. That's a year. And they've only conceded six goals in 14 games in the Champions League. You can argue about the opposition, some of those. But that's the thing. When you look at these two teams, they match up like what's their biggest strengths and it's going to be a great kind of contrast. Yeah. and I know it's stating obvious but Arsenal set place they've got a huge physical advantage over this team when they've got Vitinha and Neves in midfield and Marquinhos is a great defender he's not a big defender so they'll have a chance from set place but I think this PSG team are on the verge of becoming one of the greats so it's going to be a tough night you were just on the brink of giving Arsenal fans some hope there and then you just took it away there with a bit of PSG when you look at PSG I mean that's the When you look at the, so nobody had won, nobody had retained the Champions League, had they, till Zidane's Real Madrid.

30:48But you look at that Real Madrid team, they didn't always win their own domestic league and things like that. They had this very, very special relationship with that competition, and they always have done this, an obsession at the club. And so that was really interesting that they had this incredible run of like three seasons. three years on the turn. Whereas you look at PSG, because Real Madrid did three years on the turn and you could make the case, were they actually the best team in Europe? It was the Real Madrid find a way to win. Yeah, find a way to win. Whereas this PSG team, you're looking at it thinking, well, if they retain it, they won it as the best team in Europe.

31:32They will retain it, everyone, and regard them as the best team in Europe. There is a chance for this to be a sort of dynasty that is even even beyond that Real Madrid one because they you know they will find it as you say finding ways to get through we can argue that with PSG because their group stage stuff is never that good I tell you but the second part of it go on Tony I was just going to add in like we saw some incredible wing play didn't we over the last two weeks we were you know watching the way that Bayern from Elyssia to sort of you know Diaz but I thought one that came out for me out of all of them McCabe Esquilio was incredible.

32:08I thought Dewey as well. For a young player. That's the thing. He's got so many. Anything they get on the break and he's got even half a chance. Some people would run down a dark alley. He just gets half a yard to get a shot off and it's a good shot. They keep on making a great save. Kinnick was all over him. He was just like, get off. Get off. And that's going to be the massive issue for us. Absolutely. Plenty of time to preview the Champions League final. Congratulations, though, to Arsenal fans. Plenty more still to come in this show as well. but it's time for a break. So a question coming up from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz.

32:40What's happened when Arsenal and West Ham faced each other in the London Stadium that had not occurred in any top flight match over the past 40 years? Find out after the break.

33:01We have launched Operation Epic Fury. Stop being a proper country. When everyone says they're right Who do you believe? None of us knew the depth of that relationship If the lines are blurred Can you read between them? The depth of the relationship When the story breaks Who brings perspective? The mistake I made If you want to understand the issues that define our times It starts with listening Times Radio On your smart speaker, on digital radio Or the Times Radio app

33:38Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson with me. Team effort on this one, they got the answer to the quiz question, which was what did happen in last season's league meeting at the London Stadium between West Ham and Arsenal that had not occurred in the previous 40 years? We had seven players score in the first half, 5-2 at half-time. Bit of a classic, that one. Martin, you won't be hoping that that's the score this weekend, but we're going to talk about the Premier League in just a second.

34:07Before we move on, though, make sure you check out the Times website to two brilliant interviews with big names from the game. Owen Slott, our chief sports writer, has spoken to Frank Lampard about Coventry's brilliant season getting promoted to the Premier League. And Johnny Northcroft, our colleague who regularly appears on the show, of course, has spoken to Jamie Vardy about how his career has not finished just yet. Loads more still on the Times website besides that as well. Gregor, it's time. We didn't do it on Monday because there was a big game. But it's time. Cue the bagpipes, Neil, for this update on the Scottish Premiership that listeners have been demanding, quite rightly, all season.

34:43Take it away. Hearts are three games away from their first title in 66 years. Remarkable stuff. And it's looking more and more likely. Two on win against Rangers on Monday. Lauren Shanklin scoring against them again. Brilliant. Great finish. Brilliant finish, yeah. So they've got a three-point lead with three games to go. and a superior goal difference of five over Celtic who are second. Rangers are out of it now. They have three horse races now down to two. And Hearts visit Motherwell this weekend when Celtic play against Rangers in the Old Firm Derby. So realistically, if Rangers beat Celtic, Hearts have got one hand on their trophy.

35:24If not, as I say, Hearts visit Motherwell then they host Falkirk, then they play Celtic on the final day. so if they go into the game on the final day with the same advantage you know what could you see what could you see part of me wants it to be done part of me wants like a Celtic guard of honour for them I know that's tough for you to hear but like that would be more fitting because I think I've watched like I think a lot of fans have kind of engaged with this increasingly as the season's gone on and in recent weeks you just watch them and Hearts they play brilliantly and they we talked about it in the first half show found a way to win they keep coming back keep coming back Rangers took the lead in this one and you're going oh oh no oh no yeah they were poor in the first half but they really responded that they have got you know there was a big flag in the and say time castle saying believe keep believing and like they do yeah there's no like no real slain of nerves there's you know even if they play poorly they respond and yeah I mean it would be brilliant if it went to the final day and both teams had a chance of winning the league.

36:26That's brilliant for the neutral, but I'm sure Harts fans would much prefer to get it. Get it done and start the party early. Brilliant stuff in the Scottish football. You can keep up to date with it all from Michael Grant on the Times website. Of course, before we move on to talk about some mad games in the Premier League, Martin, I wanted to mention your column this week as well. Talking about things that are finished, done, dusted, walls relegated to the Premier League which has been confirmed for a while. We've known it for even longer. Your column this week talking about Rob Edwards, you know, he embraced the impossible job and he deserves some patience, not the vitriol that he seems to be receiving.

37:02Yeah, yeah, yeah. It was about more than Rob Edwards in many ways. It was just about this, the way that now, you know, if you look at what did anyone expect from Rob Edwards? And it's the fact that you can't you can't fail anymore you can't um be anything less than less less than brilliant in many ways you know if you lose everyone gets booed if you know fans were calling him oh i'll use it in the paper we can use on there you know he's getting called a you know you don't know what you're doing and all of this sort of stuff and you're thinking the guy took over they had two points from 11 matches nobody had ever stayed up with as the few as two points from 11 matches ever so and they played well at times and they played to to keep them up just to just to get them to where tottenham are now he would have had to hit the same form that brentford have been in all season and brentford could get into the champions league you look at this and I think, well, people's expectations now are so overblown in many ways.

38:15You're just harking back to a time, looking back to a time when Tottenham were relegated in 1976, 77. I don't know if I said this on him before I said it in the column. They get relegated. The fans invade the pitch. The big banner that they're holding in the middle of the pitch isn't sack the board or sack the manager or let's burn the stadium down or whatever. It's, we'll be back. It was a completely different time. It was a sort of defiant message. It was a positive message or whatever. Whereas now, that club is on, just at the thought of relegation, by the way, is on its third manager of the season, Nottingham Forest, on their fourth manager of the season.

38:56And this is where we are now. And the manager that got Tottenham relegated or was in charge when Tottenham were relegated did actually leave the club in 1984. seven years later, having won the FA Cup twice, having won the UEFA Cup, having lost the final of the League Cup. I mean, Tottenham, apart from Arsenal, Arsenal have retained the FA Cup twice in the Premier League era. The last team to do it is Tottenham under Keith Berkinshaw. It's not that easy to retain the FA Cup. It's an expansive cup competition. Very interesting. So, yeah. Yeah, Rob Edwards, I think, is getting a raw deal. Yeah, it makes me think of Johnny Northcross wish for 2026, can everyone just calm down a little bit?

39:43But I'm definitely not going to be calm about this next segment because we're going to talk about Monday night's absolute thriller, Everton. What a game. What a game. I am unashamed to say there's been lots of references to my terrible parenting as a new dad on this show already this season. Desperately trying to get my little baby daughter to sleep. Got my phone pinging from my mates going, wow, bloody hell, there's another goal. I'm like, what's going on over there? Couldn't believe it. Could barely even pay any attention to trying to get my daughter to sleep because of this game. It was so exciting.

40:14Brilliant from Everton, we have to say, to start with. Tony, we were discussing before we came on air, you thought it was really interesting to see David Moyes go at Per Guardiola, maybe for the first time in his managerial career. Yeah, I'm always saying, Tom, that I've always felt David Moyes has been quite conservative. And don't get me wrong, there's been a lot of managers that have been when they faced Man City. but I thought when he was at West Ham and likewise at Everton always been very careful of the approach he takes against City and rightly so you have to give him huge respect but he got to a stage it felt like half time came in and it was like we've got to test these we've got to give these a problem something to think about and the attitude from the immediately from the kick off in the second half was having a go getting players getting NGI forward into areas and okay finishing wasn't as good but just generally a much more braver approach.

41:06And I don't know if there's a bit of a reaction. And sometimes people get this idea of cloning or just an idea of going, do you know what? We watched PSG take on and we saw Bayern and we're like, team's having a go. Let's just have a go. We're in a certain position at the table. We're not in any trouble. Let's have a go at these just to see how they handled it. They probably should have won. I was about to say, Tom, they should have won the game. and I don't think I've seen Mark Gray being as poor in a game he's a terrific footballer and that's why he's ended up at City but boy did he get himself in trouble in that game a few times I've got to say I don't want that moment for any footballer but at least for Mark Gray that back pass and just the look of any footballer you definitely don't want it to not short, it made me think of you every time in your story don't hit this short every single time Gregor coming back to City then again thinking of things you've said throughout this season was this game and maybe Tony talking about David Moyes' approach a reminder that this pep team just isn't quite the pep team of old if there are chinks in the armour that you can kind of expose and get at I mean yeah but look I said a week before that that I thought City were going to win the league so it's they're making us all look like fools really aren't they I mean I suppose like Gahey that kind of one aberration Kusunov even for the I think and then build up to the corner that they score from after that you just realise that they're not like they've not been in this situation before they've not got over the line everyone talks that was my main thing about City everyone says they're serial winners they're not this team is not a team of serial winners there's a few of them are and a lot of them are on the bench or injured or whatever but this team is not a serial winner why has Bernardo Silva been so important in recent weeks and you know gets their captains out of hand and plays in but it can't be every night and like Doku was obviously the one who was the really important figure in this and what a raucous end that was extraordinary stuff yeah like you just thought they'd completely collapsed and that look that kind of haunted look of Pep Guardiola on the touchline that you see sometimes it's rare but when you see it it's real he was there just couldn't believe what was happening and Doku made you know got them something just flipped the kind of the narrative or the hopometer just a little bit up and you know give them something.

43:28Erling Haaland's goal as well. Absolutely brilliant. The pass. Yeah, everything about it. Like just kind of easily forgotten in the midst of it all because it's the kind of 3-2, oh, they're just back in it type goal. In terms of narrative, you kind of forget. And just the finish as well. Just bang, bang. Like, let's get the ball back in this. Remarkable stuff. Martin, this game, where do you stand? Tony praising Everton, Gregor looking at City there, slightly because I asked him to, but where are you looking at it? in this game? Is it David Moyes? Can't help himself, just has to be a part of the big Premier League story.

44:01I think it just shows, I think it shows that this, having the points on the board, it will always be the advantage. And the week before when, you know, when people were saying, oh, it's advantage City now and everything. The minute that Arsenal went six points clear, it doesn't matter that City have got two games in hand. All the pressure is now on City. as it is now to the end of the season. It's all on City because they're training. You've got to get it back. And in many ways, you want Arsenal to see it out because they've been the frontrunners for, what is it now, a three-season? They've been three or four seasons?

44:48The last four, say, certainly. I mean, Liverpool were obviously last year. But in their battles with Manchester City, Arsenal have been the front runners, they've been reined in, they've been reined in. You know, front runners are great, that's why people like Paul O 'Ragliffe, you know, because there's something very noble about, you know, hitting the front and saying to everyone, right, you know, try and catch me, try and catch me. And, you know, the other athletes often did with Paul O 'Ragliffe, which was always, it was always like soul destroying when you're looking at it thinking, oh no.

45:25Here they go Here they go It's happening again And so there's There's a part of you That just would Would like to see Arsenal Get over the line I'm not one of those That shares this Great amusement That they're going to Blow it again I was on RTE In Ireland And one of the guests Was Sonia Sullivan The great Irish runner Yeah And she said that In her head Because she would She couldn't go in front Because in her head Once she was in front All she would think about Is being caught And if she got caught Yeah Yeah yeah She'd just fall apart. And now that's an individual. But you do get that sense sometimes with teams.

45:58You look around at your colleagues and you just feel that something's going away from us. But that's why it is to bring it back to Arsenal then. That's why this is, if they, nothing won yet, but if they were to win the Premier League, and even, this would be a remarkable, very short turnaround. But from where we were two weeks ago, as I say, Gregor, you referenced it. I'm not doing this to make any kind of mockery, but you were firmly in the no Arsenal, Arsenal, Arsenal, Arsenal, Arsenal. And then even you were kind of in recent weeks, oh, it's City, it's City. And it is just so fascinating, isn't it, that they've managed to kind of turn it around.

46:35And as you say, Martin, you wonder whether things like their performance against Fulham was in City's minds as well going into this game as well. Not just points on the board, but maybe looking at that going, God, they're playing well. You know, they've got the win against Newcastle. They're in good position against Atletico. and they've just blown Fulham away, God, they're going to push us all the way. Tiger Woods, you know, that's how Tiger Woods did it. Tiger Woods, across the first three days, I mean, the statistic about Tiger Woods never winning a major golf tournament, that he wasn't either outright leader or I think there's just one or maybe two where he was joint leader on the last day.

47:13But everything was done from the front. Everything was done in the first three days. And right, now, now catch me. because if you're trying to catch him, you can't afford a mistake. You can't afford to stick it in the drink because you're four shots behind him already. And I always admired that sort of... There's a great honesty about Funt. I mean, there really is. And, you know, Jose Marino's team's always did it that way as well. They always did it that way. Do we see any more twists then? We're getting carried away the other way now. We've still got three games left. City have got one on Saturday.

47:46City have got one on Saturday. yeah they're on a Sunday so there's not one on Sunday yeah West Ham against Arsenal on Sunday so you've got Brentford that's the game the West Ham game I think the Everton game crystallised how important the West Ham game is for Arsenal that's their game that's their big game now like Burnley at home Palace away after possibly a few days after a conference league look I think if they beat West Ham they'll win it yeah I think that's a given I think I think likewise now. I mean, they have been the frontrunners, Martin said. You mentioned Man City earlier about talking about how it can change you, the performance that Arsenal had against City away.

48:29Well, you could make that case for Leeds because they did exactly the same thing. They lost their Leeds. They were being smashed at half-time. They turned it around. Everton turned it around against City as well. So there's a number of teams who have turned it around against City. I mean, Chelsea have got, you know, they've played City recently and they got beat 3-0, but they haven't been able to do a thing. No. But generally, do you know what I mean? My point, you can use City as a reference point of how you're going to be from here on in. Which is not City of old. You mentioned Chelsea there, Tony.

48:59That was another fairly significant result on Monday that obviously got overshadowed, but Chelsea absolutely steamrolled by nothing for his second team. That's got to be the worst Chelsea result or worst Chelsea performance of the season. Which is quite a list. Well, there's a lot of reasons for it, isn't there? our strong Forest or how many players they left in the case absolutely because you looked at that and thought right okay they've they've they've won and they've got to the FA Cup final beaten the Leeds have got to the FA Cup final right so that should be a fillet now here we go Liam Rossini has left if Liam Rossini was perceived by the players to be the problem he has now left and then you look at the Nottingham Forest team and think no Anderson no Gibbs White no Chris Wood so it's happy days and we can build on this.

49:46And I've never, I haven't seen Chelsea that bad all season. They've been pretty bad. But I haven't seen that. Do you think that was worse than Brighton? I think that was worse than Brighton because they just, there was just no interest, was there? I mean, you've got players there that look like they're going through, they're doing that thing where they're fouling players, they're fouling opponents as a way of covering the fact that, They're failing opponents to look like they're trying. Because if they'd actually done the job, they would have covered the opponent in the first place, but haven't got there, so they've done something stupid.

50:22It was, Gwennett Zaka used to do that at Arsenal. He used to drive me up the water. He's a different player at Sunderburg. Arsenal sometimes, you'd see him and you'd think, no, if you'd have done that properly, you'd have made the tackle. You didn't have to fail the guy. You've kicked him up in the air because you can't be bothered to actually get there and do him properly. And there was a few like that with Chelsea We've got Cucurella. There was a couple like that with Cucurella. You're thinking, no, mate, you've got the speed. You've got the intelligence. I've seen you play. You're a good footballer.

50:50You could have got there. Instead, you've done something silly. You look like you're trying. I've always hated the phrase of the players are on the beach. Always hated it. One manager has said, my players ain't on the beach. He said, they've been that bad. He said, they can't even be bothered to walk to the beach. They're around a swimming pool. Yeah. Right? And I always remember that in the head because I've always defended players. They don't. Me and Gregor have played. Did you really say, Gregor, that we've been in teams that have thrown in the towel or on the beach? Your colleagues would have a go, wouldn't you?

51:20But that Chelsea team, look, as Martin was alluding to, I don't think I've seen Chelsea as bad for that long time. With all what you've just said, you think that's the first time that you can't defend a player like that? How could you defend their performance in the team? You're watching it and you're thinking it lacks everything. I still see that no player goes out on the pitch and doesn't want to try or doesn't actually try I still think it just comes down there's now a rotting culture at the club There's a void as well isn't there Yeah, everything just feels like uneasy and there's a bit of a malaise now and I think probably a few of them are thinking how do I get out of here It's a big big problem for Chelsea as a club and as a project because I don't know how you arrest that Anyone worried about Cole Palmer in the World Cup?

52:11I am. Well, his performance for me was a bit... You know when you just take too many touches all the time? You keep getting the ball and you keep twisting and going one way and twisting and going the other and never really having any end product. His strength is that he had end product. That he could see that pass quickly and he could do it. At the moment, he's hanging onto the ball way too long. But Cole Palmer's part of what we've just alluded to. There's about 10 to 12 or probably 10 to 15 problems at Chelsea. You could talk from Kaiseido's performances and the drop-off, the centre-off issue and many other positions in the team that you'd go, which one do we address first?

52:47Because there's a really big one there. Can you remember when Kaiseido was considered, you know, comparable to Declan Rice or whatever? And you just think, well, he's either exhausted or there's something. Because he signed a new contract. So it's not as if he's one of those guys that's looking to get out the door or whatever. Where's this common theme, by the way, of you're playing your worst football and you get a new contract? Phil Foden at City's just signed a new contract. I'm not saying Phil Foden's not a terrific player, but he's been a sub for City. It's because we're an asset. Yeah, exactly.

53:22I get that, Gregor, but isn't there a conversation if you used to knock on a door and they'd say, well, when you're playing well, we'll give you a new deal. But it's funny with City, isn't it? Because everything at City, everything that happens, you can sort of look at through the prism of Pep Guardiola staying or going or whatever. So you look at Phil Foden signing a new contract and you think, right, so what does this mean? Does this mean that they're trying to secure him because they know Pep Guardiola's going and they've said to him, look, we're going to get another manager in, you might get more of a chance next season or whatever?

54:00Or is this, you know, Pep loves Phil Foden and he said, no I'm going to be here and I want that guy here I think it means that they still don't know they're simply trying to sign as many people you can stay anyone else want to definitely stay anyone else definitely want to be here Gregor we just want to quickly mention Nottingham Forest and what a job Vitor Pereira has done with their form you're going to Villa Park tonight for the second leg of the Europa League clash with Aston Villa we talked about it on Monday's show you know Villa so often seen as favourites for this competition but actually you might be listening to this listeners by the time that Villa of Windy won the game but Forrest can be confident tonight Forrest are the team in the better form which just seems a strange thing to say considering Villa have all but secured their Champions League place for next season and Forrest just about now secured their place in the Premier League but have been in a relegation battle all season and even more so when you think that everyone looked at the team sheet that Vitor Pereira named here and thought what are you doing Villa did the same against Spurs and we saw the result of that and the kind of toxicity inside Villa Park during the game and afterwards he thought Mike you're not safe yet but you know a big part of his job actually has been keeping the players who are not playing as happy as the players who are and that seems to be something that Sean Dyche certainly didn't manage to achieve because it has been a big part for a season when you're playing you've got you know the bread and butter of the Premier League when you were you couldn't get any points and you're in a relegation battle and your first European excursion for three decades you know balancing that was tough Beto Pereira has found kind of the right balance at just the right time He took on risks leaving a load of players at Chelsea That's a brave decision They were only three points above West Ham Especially given what we'd seen as Gregor mentioned with Villa and some of the teams resting players you can read Gregor's match report from the big game in the Europa League tonight on the Times website I just wanted to finish by talking about relegation.

56:03We've talked about narratives and things flip-flopping back and forth very quickly. All of a sudden on Monday's show, Martin and Tony, we were talking about Tottenham are safe, Tottenham are back. Brilliant stuff. Martin, you slightly alluded to it already with West Ham's performance at Brentford. Tony, I'll come to you first. Relegation, we're talking about the title, back and forth. Who do you think's the favourites? How are you looking at relegation now? West Ham have got this big game against Arsenal, Tottenham hosting Leeds on Monday night. Well, it was very weird watching Spurs at Villa Park and thinking, wow.

56:33Yeah. The energy was just extraordinary. Everybody was battling and just making it as difficult as they could and Villa were off. They weren't. And they've been a little bit like that, Villa. They look like they get very leggy very quickly because he's using so many players in European football. But it's a massive... With West Ham losing, that result... You know, they played before West Ham against Leeds on... Was it Friday night or Saturday? Spurs. Spurs is Monday night Monday night sorry it's hard but if they win that game you sort of much go well that's really it really makes it impossible for West Ham unless West Ham literally win all their games yeah yeah Martin you know what I think I know you've thought it for a long time but you have I've never for one second thought that West Ham were getting out of it I've always thought you must have thought for one second no no no no no I've always looked at the fixtures looked at how it falls for Tottenham and look, when they had Igor Tudor, I'm not sure this would have turned around, but once they got to Zerbian and you looked at the fixtures, you're thinking, no, this is...

57:41West Ham, it wasn't too late in terms of when they brought Nuno in, but then there's three months before they can bring in new players in. You've got to remember, at one stage... Even then, they didn't bring many in. No, it was Cullen Wilson and Nicholas Falkirk with two centre forwards and things like this. And so I don't think Nuno has done a bad job at all. Mavipanas suddenly looks like a defender. Di Zarsi was nobody's idea of a good defender at Chelsea or an Aston Villa. It looks like he's better than all of them at Chelsea. Yeah, it looks like you're walking to the Chelsea team against Di Zarsi.

58:18So I think Nuno's done a decent job. I just think that it was Dice Willow to Reddance from the very very start Greg I think they'll give Arsenal a good game yeah I wouldn't write them off like these they something in the air conditioning through this system I don't think they were that bad against Brentford no they hit the woodwork four times their goals were bad and I've said I said it on Monday's show Malik Jouf is not good enough defensively and you just realise that there's no solution for him. You're just praying that he's going to be good enough on the day for the next three games. And like, there's not many of them anymore.

59:01De Sasse came in, made a huge difference. Mavre Panos has been transformed. Jofre's that modern fullback thing, isn't he? Where he's actually... He can put the great cross in for Bowen at the back post, but then he can't do the defensive side. So I'm not... He's that modern fullback. I accept all of that. But the only... If you look back since January, the only other... I was at the Villa game where they lost 2-0 and they were brutal in that game but they've been rare and they responded they played well against Leeds in the FA Cup after that then they beat Wolves 4-0 the Palace game was dodgy they found something against Everton this was a bad day but actually not that bad and I think like if Arsenal turn up there I think after a big exertion thinking that they're going to roll them over I think they'll get us a prize There you go Martin a bit of hope from Greg Robertson I've got a bit more good news for you as well even if you do go down Samuel Clark Derby next season in the Champions League that's a great comfort let me game podcast stay out of Lincoln yeah absolutely mate I'll go 2018 2018 2018 2019 actually good in by the way that's a much better imp than the last one I should say I let Martin Samuel choose the Lincoln shirt that I'm wearing that's a much better imp much more impressed the docile one the gaunest looking docile we can even get you a shirt if West Ham go that'd be really fun wouldn't it you can check out my Lincoln shirt on the Times YouTube channel at Times Sport, but we'll leave it there for now.

1:00:22Tony Cascarino, Martin Samuel and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday to talk about that big weekend in the Premier League. We'll see you then.