TIMES EXCLUSIVE: FIFA - Football for sale

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1:16Hello and welcome to The Game, football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. This is a special bonus episode to bring you some huge exclusive news on the Times website about FIFA and Gianni Infantino. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined by our chief sports reporter, Martin Ziegler. He is the man who revealed the news of the proposed Super League and he has stunned the football world once again. Martin, it's a huge story on the Times website. I wanted to start and keep it as simple as possible. So I'm going to play a bit of devil's advocate here and ask you a few quick fire questions. So what is the story and what is being proposed that you've revealed on the Times website today?

1:56Yeah, it's fairly simple. FIFA, Johnny Infantino has a plan to sell off probably about 30 % of the World Cup to private investors. So setting up a new company, 30 % of it owned by private investors, and the rest of it either owned by FIFA, about 51%, and the rest owned by the member associations who could also sell off their stakes. So it's basically the world's greatest football tournament now potentially being co-owned by private investment funds from the US because the man who is leading the investment is Joshua Kushner, the brother of Donald Trump's son-in-law, Jared Kushner. Wow. So the World Cup is for sale, Martin.

2:47The World Cup is for sale. Is that right? Effectively, that's what's happening. The World Cup is for sale, as the Times headline says. I mean, FIFA, as I understand it, have put out a statement. Why are they saying that they want to do this? What is their reasoning behind this quite striking move? So they've said they want to build on the commercial success of the 2026 World Cup and deliver more money for the 211 member associations who make up FIFA. So they would all get a big chunk of extra cash, either from the private investment coming in or from their own stake if they wanted to sell it. And they've actually, you know, they've said, you know, they're already going to increase the amount of money over the next cycle from$8 million to$20 million per National Association.

3:38That's going to get even more. Cycle after cycle will go increase more and more and more. That's what they said. So the money's going to come from somewhere. It's absolutely staggering. There's so much to unpick from this. Some people will be looking at it and going, well, FIFA, it's World Cup, it's football. Loads of people make money from football. But this is slightly different, isn't it? When it's FIFA, there's supposed to be a global body. How do they make money from football at the moment? How do they pay for the activities that they put on and all the lavish spending that they make? How do they make their money at the moment?

4:09Well, all the money basically comes from the Men's World Cup. So TV money, sponsorship, tickets, hospitality. So the revenue for the last cycle, including the 2026 World Cup,$15 million. And just about all of that comes down to the Men's World Cup, the vast majority. So that is the thing that drives everything. now i suppose the question is if you have private investors calling the shots because you know if you're spending say that they invest five billion dollars to fifa they don't just want a return on their money they they want to call the shots a bit don't they so are they going to say we want to have more world cups more often yeah bigger world cups we've we know that this the 64 team proposal is going to be discussed.

4:58The Cub World Cup, is that going to be played in November in Saudi Arabia, for example, this new Cub tournament? What effect would that have on the domestic leagues? I mean, the potential for problems are endless. But Martin, I mean, there is a case here we need to outline. There is a bigger issue here. FIFA is a not-for-profit organisation, is it not? It's not a commercial entity. Is that a key factor here that Infantino is trying to change that there is a sense that where people be looking at this and going can they sell anything is that's what's happening here in creating this opportunity fifa makes profits but the profit it makes all goes and reinvested in the game all gets split up amongst the member associations right so if you're johnny infantino and you want to be elected then the way to get elected is to promised more money to the national associations so that's that's one factor which is why he has always since he was elected 10 years ago he's really tried to everything he can to increase fifa's income you know he talked about a biennial world cup before uh he tried another private investment in 2017 with the new club world cup and a global nations league that failed so this is a sort of been a constant preoccupation of his i mean it's interesting to know what is in it for johnny infantino himself yeah now to say this hasn't been discussed about you know who would lead this new fifa company um or enterprise once he finishes his his final term of office in 2031 some people think he would like that position himself as the commissioner of this new enterprise because look to see what does the NFL commissioner, what does he get paid?

6:46$64 million a year. That's 10 times more than Johnny Infantino gets paid at the minute. Now, there are a lot of people saying, what is life for Johnny Infantino going to be without FIFA? Because he has become basically totally, FIFA is his life, and can you envisage what it would be after him? Now, lots of people think this would be the perfect exit strategy for him running this company, earning far more than he does at the minute and also still having a sort of decisive influence in World Cups. How could he potentially achieve this then? Because you talk about the money that is made and it going into the member nations and member countries and things.

7:32How would he get them on side with this idea of creating a business and selling off shares to private investors? How does he get the countries of the world who compete in the World Cup and compete for the World Cup? How does he get them on side? Well, because say you're one of the smaller nations in the South Pacific or somewhere like that, you get a share worth$20 million, which you can sell if you reach this proposal. That's probably five times what your annual income is at the minute. Right. Or even more, perhaps. and if you you know if you get this money and without you know questions asked about how you spend it you just get this massive chunk of money how many people are going to say no to that um i sort of phrase it as you know it's christmas voting for turkeys so the smaller nations are being could be promised 20 million pounds and so you're saying that actually it's being geared so there's an actual interest for these for lots of the nations probably to vote for such a measure yeah so the mechanism by which everyone has a stake all the 211 members have as a stake separate to fifa within this new enterprise which they can sell i think is just a mechanism to try and get it voted through i can't because you know the member associations are fifa so fifa's going to have 21 so they're going to have that why are they going to have their extra this extra money that they can sell for themselves, or this extra stake, I should say, which they can sell for themselves.

9:02The only reason I can see is to try and get it across the line. So there's a scenario in which they've sold part of it and then the member nations start selling parts of it, their parts of it as well. Yes, that's right. So FIFA has a controlling interest, always 51%, say. 30 % goes to private investors and then 19 % goes to the national associations. contributions split up 211 ways which i think works out at about 20 million dollars as an estimate remarkable so which they would be at liberty to sell um to to other private investors or keep and retain but um you know you'd imagine a lot of them think this is a this is a once in a lifetime payday so yeah let's vote for it to take the ultimate devil's advocate view on any footballing podcast on this topic.

9:52If I were to ask you, FIFA might be saying, what's the problem here? We're going to generate more money for the game. We're going to generate more money for the World Cup. What's the issue here? Why do you think football fans should be upset about this?

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11:02Well, because the issue here is if you're going to have private investors wanting what they want is a return on their investment and more money. So are they going to be putting pressure on FIFA to say we want bigger tournaments? we want more world cups we want them every two years we want the club world cup to be 48 teams we want that to be every year you know we want you know we it's conflicts of interest everywhere yeah remarkable stuff i mean let's let's give the listeners that's about as much devil's advocate i want to play to be honest in terms of giving fifa's side of these things because i mean my reaction was just absolutely staggered by this story once again let's give the listeners a little bit more detail on your news story before we maybe get into a little bit of reaction you mentioned some factors there about the club world cup and about the some of the people involved just tell us some of the facts that maybe we've not covered in our little q a so far yeah so i mean we know that johnny fatino has had um place links with donald trump so i think you know that the fact that we've now got somebody who is not far removed from the trump administration i mean he's not directly connected joshua kushner but jared kushner certainly is his brother and this is a guy who is a billionaire.

12:16He's spotted potential in things like Instagram and Spotify, invested in them at an early stage and has made a killing. And looks like he's the man who's going to be putting the money up front for this too if it goes ahead. And he's got the bank JP Morgan. He's advising FIFA on this as well and looking for other investors. So it's big business, it really is. Yeah, just tell us a little bit about some of the reaction from both some of the people you spoke to in building up this story and also UEFA, I believe, have also made a statement as well. But there was quite a telling line from senior figures in football that's in your story with quite a good catchy line that I thought kind of said it all for about what fans were thinking about this.

13:00yeah i mean so when i was like speaking to people around football in senior positions who aren't part of this um plan asking if they'd heard of it i mean some of them were very alarmed by it um said it one of them said it would be like a i think a nuclear explosion in football is how one of them put it another one said it was unacceptable because you'd have a position where that potentially the leader of this new enterprise would be in a much more powerful position than the FIFA president themselves. And so those were two sort of significant reactions. Then UEFA actually put out a statement in response to the Times article saying that this crosses a line that football's governing institutions should never cross.

13:49It says, UEFA takes it extremely serious. The sole and governance of football are not assets to trade, especially with zero transparency as to who gains financially none of us are the owners of football it is not fifas to sell well i couldn't have said it better myself and i'm gonna go for a quick break now martin i just want to get your further reaction and give us a little bit of context on how how big we think this story might become in the coming days stick with us listeners we'll be back just after this welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and sunday times i'm tom clark and this is a special bonus episode of the game podcast bringing you some huge exclusive news on the times website i'm joined by our chief sports reporter martin ziegler on plans for the world cup to be put up for sale by fifa and gianni infantino martin just before that break we had some reaction from uefa what fifa said themselves after this story came out what statement have they put out well they've basically um just about confirmed everything they they i mean they've said they've confirmed that uh josh kushner is the proposed lead investor they've confirmed that this is an idea that has been looked at and studied and that they've said the reasons are because they want to build on the commercial success of the World Cup and that this has been passed on to member associations who will have the final sign-off.

15:23So they've basically confirmed it all. I mean, they have made it clear that Jared Kushner, the brother of Joshua Kushner, who is Donald Trump's son-in-law, that he's not investing himself directly. But apart from that, they've basically confirmed it's all happening. Yeah, remarkable stuff. and also a sign of how well-placed Martin Ziegler is to bring you the biggest news. Martin, I want to get a bit of reaction. Alison Rudd, our colleague and senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist, has done a brilliant piece of commentary on the Times website, which is headlined, Enough is enough. It's time to stand up to FIFA and protect the game we love.

16:02Very passionate battle cry from Ali there. But is there a way in which this doesn't happen? You know, I alluded to the Super League story before, the one that you broke that kind of sent shockwaves through football. You had fans from clubs up and down the country protesting that. How does this not happen, though? We've outlined, you know, the member nations that get 20 million. Is there a world in which this doesn't happen? Yeah, I still think there's a lot of people who Infantino would have to get on side. I mean, I know there's people within FIFA itself who are alarmed by this and within the administration.

16:38Say UEFA against it. I imagine a lot of North America and Central America might be alarmed by this and perhaps countries in the Caribbean. They're not they're not you wouldn't say they're in Infantino's pocket at all. I think he knows that Africa would probably vote with him. I think he knows that parts of Asia would vote with him and South America. But so I think it's finally balanced, actually. Yeah, it could be. Really interesting. I mean, and just just your reaction generally, I just wanted to ask one question after this before we wrap it up. But what was just your reaction generally? You know, as a news reporter, you're so stuck in the details, making sure everything's correct.

17:14But your reaction as a football fan, as a sports fan, and as a man who's worked in the industry for such a long time? Well, I just think if you're the governing body of the game, whether you're at a national level like the English FA, European level like UEFA, or international level like FIFA, once you bring in private investors and sell off your competitions, you are in a very sticky place. Yeah, yeah, that's certainly the unpleasant thing for me. And as I say, that top line at the start, that headline, the World Cup for sale, just certainly doesn't feel right. Martin, I just wanted to finish by asking you about the initial reaction that we've seen.

17:55We're recording this in the evening after the story came out in the afternoon. So early days yet, you've already been on Times Radio talking about the story, doing this podcast now. As I mentioned, you're the man who broke the Super League story. Does this feel to you comparable? Does it feel bigger? What is the kind of reaction that you've seen on social media? Such a good barometer these days, isn't it? For when you put a story out there, you can immediately feel the reaction. What does it feel like in the early hours after this story's gone live? I think it's certainly the biggest story I've broken since the European Super League.

18:29perhaps hasn't got the sort of political um clout that that immediately had where you know you had the prime minister getting involved and threatening to you know drop a legislative bomb on the european super league to stop it happening not quite sure that they can do that i mean i would imagine andy burnham the sort of person he is and the football fan he is would be absolutely horrified by this but there's probably not much he can do about it so i think in terms of the reaction it's close to and the sort of you know the uproar and social media and the general reaction is is close to to the the super league one but um it's probably not quite there yet not quite there yet not quite there yet by the time listeners are checking out this podcast it might well be there loads more reaction to come in the coming days and hours to this huge story and loads more to come from martin ziegler on the times website of course but we'll wrap it up there for now for this immediate reaction special bonus episode of the game martin thank you so much for joining me to run us through that story and give your reaction thank you too for listening we'll be back on thursday with more reaction to this story and plenty more news from the football world too we'll see you then

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