TRANSFER LATEST - and who is better Rogers or Anderson?

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0:37Hello and welcome to The Game, a football podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. So, the World Cup is over. What have we missed back in the Premier League? The record fee for an English player has been broken not once, but twice. Aston Villa are losing big names at an alarming rate. Tottenham are splashing cash at an alarming rate. And the champions seem to not be signing anyone at all. Fulham have hired the former Real Madrid manager and Oliver Glasner, fresh from a two-year spell at Crystal Palace, during which time he complained endlessly about the club hierarchy, has chosen as his next club, Nottingham Forest.

1:12Make sense of that. We will certainly try. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Arsenal, it's Gary Jacob, and the former footballer who played for Chelsea, Aston Villa and Marseille, Tony Cascarino is with us too. Hello, everybody. We're back. Lovely long break. Nice holiday. Ready for the pre-season. Really relaxed and refreshed, aren't we, Tony? Well, weeks since we were in this studio chatting about the World Cup, isn't it? Weeks. Tom, this time of year, if you played in the World Cup and obviously players have gone really deep in it, they're sort of on their holidays now.

1:51This is the worst time and the hardest training. All the players didn't go to the World Cup. Yeah. You're full on. As in, so you're back with... We've been back a couple of weeks and you're right into the deep training of our graph for the coming season. That's kind of how I feel now, to be honest. But it's well worth it and I'm delighted to be here with all of you. Because there is, as my intro says, loads to discuss. Loads of things we deliberately ignored, isn't there, Alison? I mean, Morgan Rodgers, Aston Villa to Chelsea, £117 million. Elliot Anderson, Nottingham Forest to Manchester City, 116 million quid.

2:28Absolutely remarkable stuff. Alison, your thoughts on, just tears off with some quick thoughts on both those transfers, just to get us going. Well, they set the tone, I think, for how we view the clubs involved. So I remember sat in this very studio being asked by you, Tom, who do Arsenal need to kick on next season? And I think I wasn't alone in saying Morgan Rodgers. And I think you agreed with me. Yes, I think a lot of people did, a lot of Arsenal fans as well. There were lots of speculation and discussions, and I'm sure Gary will know just how serious it got with Arsenal's interest in Morgan Rodgers.

3:02But I think if you'd been asked to put money on where will he go, a lot of people would have said, people in the know would have said, I think he's probably going to go to Arsenal. But they were worried about where the deal was constructed, the size of it. They seemed still slightly obsessed with overpaying for players. and out of nowhere in come Chelsea we'll have him we'll pay we'll pay what you want 10th place Chelsea indeed Chelsea without any European competition but with a sexy new manager if I was a Chelsea fan I would suggest the signing of Morgan Rodgers helps to imply that they're going to be playing three at the back maybe 3-4-3 with Morgan Rodgers and Cole Palmer behind Jao Pedro perhaps interesting maybe I mean to attract a player who could have had Europe not having Europe could have had Europe an existing club or his new club another club he's gone for a club without a new European competition so there's something going on with how Chelsea are packaging what they're about this coming season and I think I think you have to conclude Chelsea having ended the season in a not so brilliant place might be a force be reckoned with this campaign.

4:15Tony I'll come to you on Chelsea in a second but that does tee us up perfectly to ask Gary Jacob about a piece that you wrote on the website about this exact transfer and Alison talking about Arsenal maybe missing a trick with Morgan Rodgers that is kind of what happened where do you want to start on this I'd say the first thing is this is an analogy Andre Berto goes down the nightclub and he starts chatting to maybe Alison yeah then he chats to another girl oh hang on is this going to be I'm not pretty enough no okay be a dangerous start gary that one but go on then he goes to another girl yeah and he goes around the nightclub and he starts flirting with them and yeah they all think they're going to go home with him and he's chatting a bit more but then he asks his friend can you speak to her because i'm not so sure i don't know i don't know whether she really likes me and he's he's going around the club doing this with everyone yeah and he's still dithering and someone else comes in and buys, goes across to the table, chats to her, buy some drinks, and they're off.

5:17And he's still dithering. And that is the situation they're in because for months they've been dithering with a lot of these players about do they want to go for them. They're trying to use agents to try to do the deal rather than just picking up the phone and doing the deal. Really? And if you're taking that approach, then that person who sat in the seat is going, well, do you really want me or don't you want me? So you're saying Arsenal could have had Morgan Rodgers? Could have had him weeks ago for 100 million, done and dusted. Really? So that's one thing, is that do you really want him? And does the player really believe that you want him?

5:52And if the player really believes you want him and you lock him down, like they did with Declan Rice a few years ago, then when Man City come in late, as they did for Declan Rice, he goes, no, no, sorry, I'm going to Arsenal. So it doesn't matter what they do. So even if Man City's tried to change the deal with West Ham and go, oh, no, we'll offer you more, as Man United did with Bale, offered more than Real Madrid did. And Bale said, no, no, I'm going to Real Madrid. So it's irrelevant. Even if Tottenham tried to deliver that deal and even if Villa tried to deliver it, he goes, no, no, sorry, I'm going to Arsenal.

6:20You can do what you want to do. I only want to go there. But they didn't do that. So unless you get that person locked down and that's been, you know, you're sold out, don't you? Yeah, I've been there. If you've been there. Not that level, but... If you're a player in the dressing room, you say, sorry, I'm only going to this club. So they haven't locked the players. Is this a bigger win for Chelsea or a bigger loss for Arsenal? I mean, because Ayersen's right in her answer, isn't she? Everyone was going, Arsenal, Morgan Rodgers, that's a great signing. It's a statement for the champions. Mikel wanted him.

6:49The manager wanted him. I mean, it sounds like we're stungled across a massive cock-up. I think they would say they didn't want to pay the price. They only had a certain level to go to. It was 80, they might have gone to 100. And then I guess you've then, I suspect then, start of last week, Chelsea didn't think he was going to go there, because they've only just more than a year. They assumed he's going to Arsenal. Now I suspect, I don't know this, but my suspicion will be that Villa then sort of call up Chelsea and go, look, they're messing us around here. Got another 17 million in you. Are you interested?

7:21Oh yeah, we are interested. And then they go, oh, by the way, we still like going at you. Then you can argue about whether they are linked deals and not linked deals. Yeah, which we might do in a bit. Which you might do, and they might say they're not. Well, they will say they're not. So then you kind of think it's just got a mess here. And the thing is, it's not the only player Arsenal's had messed up with. I mean, you know, as we wrote the other day, they met Jeremy Munger. Yeah. Five million quid there for Leicester. Leicester want ten plus a little bit more. They're sort of dithing around.

7:50Man City come and go, right, okay, there we go. Done, dusted, off we go. And if you're Munger or you're Rodgers or I don't know in their specific cases, or if you're the girl in the nightclub, you want to feel really loved that you're only going to go home with that one person and you're not going to go anywhere else. And that's what Arsenal needed to have done this summer with the ones they really wanted and so they won't go anywhere else. Champagne cocktail does it for me. I don't mind. Champagne cocktail. More of a bag of chips kind of going on ourselves. Anyway, a really, really punchy start to this catch-up episode.

8:22Loads and loads to discuss already. Only started with Chelsea and Morgan Rodgers and Aston Villa. We're already into Arsenal. Tony, just general thoughts. Ali and Gary have made some fantastic observations about this transfer. Your thoughts both maybe from a Chelsea win but also an Arsenal loss side? Well, I mean, look, Gary's alluded there to going to£100 million. But, you know, initially, wasn't it£80 million, Gary? That was the starting place. It ended up£116 million. So there's a... £117 million. £117 million. There's a, what,£32 million difference. It's crazy. Crazy money difference. It's not like, oh, it was£80 million and he's gone for£85 million with another club.

8:56It's leapt to£117 million. But even with Arsenal, Gary was saying Arsenal would have paid£100 million. Maybe we would have gone some of the add-ons, yeah. So you think he's... Well, I guess that's a good question. Do you think that's too... Chelsea have overpaid for Morgan Rodgers, would you say? Yeah, but in the history of transfers and record fees, there's always been an overpayment to get them. And Gary's just alluded, they wanted him. Yeah. And they really wanted him. I guess that's a good question. I mean, I'm not saying that Arsenal don't want him, but obviously Chelsea wanted him more than Arsenal.

9:24I mean, the money is absolutely obscene, of course, and we'll come on to some of these fees in a second, but 100 million for a kind of top english player of a certain age feels like is that par these days i mean it's madness isn't it it must be par because i i did not even blink it didn't even occur to me that's a lot of money it felt quite natural so obviously you like champagne cocktails though that's so clearly over the seasons i'm inbuilt with an expectation that the next transfer window will see big money and i've become immune to it being startling we saw it last year tom We saw this carry on last year, didn't we, with Liverpool?

10:01You know, with Izak. You know, that sort of fee. And then, obviously, they had Verts as well. You know, we saw these extraordinary fees coming, but it's the norm now. But in the market then, in this acceptance of that being a big feat, is£117 million for Morgan Rodgers a good deal, or is it quite a lot of money? It's probably a little bit toppy. A bit toppy. It's toppy. But the market's been moved, hasn't it, this summer, by Fernandes, by Tonali. and the market has just shifted again this summer. And, you know, Arsenal were in for both of those, but didn't want to pay the agent fee or the fee that was attached to those deals.

10:36What do we think about Arsenal's point of view then of standing their ground on these? Because I look at it from a kind of narrative perspective and, you know, the stance of we're the champions. And I'm kind of thinking, you go out and sign, say if they were sat here now with Tonali and Rodgers for what, 200 million, it might have cost them just less than. You're going, God, Arsenal. Wow. Wow. They've got nice Antoinale. They've got Rodgers and Saka. We did that with Liverpool last season, didn't we? We thought, wow, isn't that clever? You've won the title. You're not resting on your laurels. You realise this is the moment to really show that you're intending to be strong for the next five years.

11:15You're going big. And then they spent a lot of money on two players, which I can't say flops, but I'm going to say flops. I mean, relative to their cost were flops. And so if you're Arsenal, you're looking at that. Eke TK injured, of course. But yes, I tell you, in a quick assessment. I'm not including Eke TK. I'm not including Vietz and Izaak are the ones that cost a lot of money. And Izaak wasn't match fit because he'd gone on strike. And then he got injured. And Vietz struggled to adapt to the Premier League. And a lot was expected. And this is what happens. The player isn't in charge of how much he's valued.

11:53but it's as though you've had a Cinderella fairy sort of sprinkle dust on you or you cost that much therefore you've got to really really sparkle you've got to be extra special and they weren't and so you can I have some sympathy for Arsenal thinking well we don't want to do a Liverpool where we spend big big money on a player who who might not actually end up looking more than a 75 million player if that's a bargain but you know what I mean I think when they like look started looking at Declan, the price was probably 80, it went to 100 and they were like, hmm, you know, it started going up. And one thing that Josh Cronky said, that's when he just sit down there last season, he said, if we're going to spend this money, it was about, say, 100 million, it was about a quarter of their revenue at that point, probably.

12:40Yeah, I want to understand he's not just a good footballer, he's more than, and if you meet Declan, you know he's far more than just a very good footballer. And so I think that was the light bulb moment for josh okay right i can sanction it and probably if you're asking you you're asking those questions now it's about the player the character and all that and you're asking those bigger questions about do we want do we want to spend this and they will probably say we don't want to also they'll probably say the players are too toppy um but then there's another part of question we can't quite answer yet and we won't answer till september so are they actually sealing the deal for the players or not we don't know that because a lot of the a lot of this is about actually getting the deal done.

13:19You know, it's not just about paying their money. It's actually locking the player, making sure everything's in place, you get the deal done. Yeah. And as you said, I'm being mischievous in the middle of July talking about, oh, Arsenal have cocked up the transfer window. There's a long, long time to go. We could be at the start of the season and they've signed a couple of people for 60, 70 million. You're going, oh, no, this was much better business. I think the thing, you know, we all watch the Champions League final, you could see the difference in terms of the way PSG put the ball around and also the Carabao final the way Man City could play through them.

13:46And Arsenal really do need more technical players and more elite players, you can see, to kind of close that gap. You could win the league with the type of signers they made last year, but you can't maybe win more than that. And I think, you know, those type of players, if you look at the deals they did last summer, they were players like Noni, no one else probably wanted him. Eze, maybe Spurs, but they could easily persuade him. Supermendy's already done. They were deals that basically weren't difficult to do. you know now they're having to do deals which are much more difficult to do and so they're we won't know tocember can they actually do they've got other options that sorry sorry no have they got have they got all their options well they they were talking to barcola but i don't know it seems like he'll probably go to louisport it seems um that no for certain and obviously their main one they really want to go is valvarez but they need alvarez wants to go to barcelona and they need to wait for that barcelona to to almost effectively drop away before they don't want to fight with barcelona knowing that they would lose basically yeah athletic coaches don't want to sell to barcelona so they need to get a position where barcelona just not in the race but there is a world that arsenal end up with julian alvarez instead of morgan roger and there's a world where they end up with alvarez maybe on the left or in the center maybe jojarez goes the other way and they're getting bruno and everyone's smiling and everyone's happy and but the other thing is that also probably didn't bank on getting another center which they now suddenly need because of Saliva's injury.

15:12I want to come back to that, Tony. I just want to make, Gary, did you know if Arsenal had a whiff that Chelsea were closer than on this deal as well? Or did that come out the blue? No, and it was really late. Literally within 72 hours they did that deal, middle of last week. I just wondered on that because sometimes, I mean, I always remember the Keane one when he went for a record fee and he went to Manchester United, Blackburn. It was agreed, wasn't it? Yeah, it was agreed. Everything was done. and Kenny Douglas turned on Keane on it because of that type of deal that Keane decided to go to Man United very late on.

15:45And there's one last time with Eze, Tottenham thought he was, you know, Tottenham were ready to kind of announce, not announce Eze, but do Eze, blah, blah, blah. Little do they know, as soon as Havis got injury, Tim Lewis, as he was there, was calling Steve Parrish to do the deal behind everyone's backs. No one even in the agency camp knew, all done that, and then it was then presented. So we've done that deal because they just didn't want it to leak. Just very quickly, as we've ended up talking about Arsenal, just to wrap that up, you think they will now need to go for a centre-back because of William Saliba's injury?

16:13A right-sided centre-back who can probably put that right-back because they've got all these injuries on the right and they just need a bit of... Arsenal fans will be absolutely chuffed, especially if you can do a long throw as well. What about Chelsea then? We started talking about Chelsea and Morgan Rodgers. Alison, you suggested Chelsea might be quite good. Tony, thoughts on your former club? Cole Palmer on one side, Morgan Rodgers on the other. Yeah, he's the same forward line. I mean, you've also got Neto in there as well that could compete with Colpun. Is he being linked with a move away?

16:41Well, yeah, I'm sure there's going to be more ins and outs at Chelsea. But it's a, I mean, look, Pedro had a great season last year. He's got a lot of good goals and he's still relatively very young. So you'd like to think he'd improve again. Yeah, it's a lot of good things. I just think Chelsea have to have, and it's been so many times been mentioned by many different people. If you don't add experience to that team, I still think they're going to, because everything is about potential at Chelsea. And some of them have been there, people like Enzo Fernandes, no one knows his future. But Caicedo's been there a couple of seasons now.

17:14So there's lots of good things there for them to have a really exciting season. What do we think about Enzo Fernandes and whether he ought to stay at Chelsea, given he angled for a move to Real Madrid and the whole Argentina thing at the World Cup? Do you think he's going to be welcomed back with Open? Players always welcome back other players. They don't I mean more Are you going to boo Alexis McAllister? He was just as bad No Anyway we've done enough We did enough Argentina bashing On Monday's show I've already got I've already got the half of Argentina I don't want to revisit that But Do you feel Enzo Fernandes Has a future at Chelsea?

17:50Well he seems to be doing His utmost To not have one Would that be fair? Well that's But yeah Do you not think When you then see Morgan Rodgers coming in And Jab I mean Jabby Alonso Must be a big You know draw for a lot of these players as well you think oh we're heading in the right direction even without europe um well i i don't think he'll stay there a long time willie enzo fernandez i think you could see him doing another season it's possible i could be wrong but gary yeah i think you know the type the sn is not for sale but and then the type of price moved to probably 120 plus now because of what's gone on before yeah and that how many clubs in the world have got that type of money that's the other you know everyone talks about less than a handful less than a handful yeah.

18:32They're very good at sales though aren't they Chelsea? I mentioned both the records for English players being broken we've not even mentioned Elliot Anderson yet other than in my intro does that mean less of a shock at this one? More kind of oh yeah Elliot Anderson to Manchester City 116 million. Does that all make sense? I mean look you can't not admire him as a player. I mean winning the ball back you only have to look at his data on everything it's great. Yeah. You know, probably the best around at winning the ball back. We're looking at Rodri and what happens with Rodri at Man City because, I mean, he ended up having an amazing World Cup.

19:10Yeah. But they went in early for him, didn't they? They saw him as their number one target, Elliot Anderson. Do we see it as a comparable move to Declan Rice, to Arsenal? Do we think in a couple of years we'll all be going, oh my God, Elliot Anderson, in the way that we talk about Declan Rice? I think that's really possible. And I think part of the reason for the price for Elliot Anderson is if you were to monitor words written about Elliot Anderson towards the end of the domestic season and going into the World Cup and during the World Cup, he was the most positively written about, spoken about, broadcast about player that there was in the Premier League.

19:49He was seen as someone who was blossoming in front of our eyes, getting more mature with every game, more influential with every game and going about it in a very understated English sort of way. You know, he had a sort of tub-thumping performance without thumping the tub, if you see what I mean. You can see why managers really want that, that sort of steady character, always playing the correct pass. Not always the most scintillating, but you don't always want that from your midfielder. You want someone who can control that midfield and not show off in there. so he would be sort of understatedly brilliant so you could almost see during that period his price tag just going up another 10 million the emphasis on midfielders is there Tom yeah many clubs Fernandez Antoinale big signings for Spurs in midfield midfield is seemingly very important to a lot of clubs not that it's never not been but definitely the Garnaccio deal I mean what would you say Garnaccio's worth Tony well it's a loan deal So it's all so different, Gary.

20:56I mean, Garnaccio, I don't feel has found a home. And I don't know if he's wanted to find that home. Because he didn't really want it at Manchester United. And he clearly didn't want it at Chelsea very quickly. And he's going to a club with a manager that with Gourgo, he knows his football. He's a guy that really knows his stuff around football. And he's gone, well, I'll take him. I'll take him in three years. But it's like a loan, which is an additional obligation where, by account, the obligation is relatively easy to kind of trigger. And the fee is more than they paid for him last summer. So does that kind of make any sense?

21:31Do we think there's a good player in there? Yeah, but I don't know how much he wants to... I can imagine him being, and I hope he proves me wrong, just a player that moves a lot and ends up playing for seven clubs and he's never quite settled anywhere. But you've seen moments of brilliance. He was in and out of the Chelsea team quite quick. Established himself, got into the side, then got left out quite quick. And that seems to be the common theme so far. I will come back to Aston Villa, but I just wanted to finish because I was interested in listening to you talk about Elliot Anderson. Got these two huge transfers.

22:03Which of the two will be more successful long-term? Morgan Rodgers,£170 million to Chelsea. Elliot Anderson,£116 million to Manchester City. Depends entirely on the manager, I would say. Pick one, Alison. Well, I think Alonso is the better manager than Maresca, so I think it will be the Chelsea player. Interesting. Morgan Rodgers over Elliot Anderson, despite really rating the transfer of Elliot Anderson. I do, I do. But you've asked me to... I agree with you. I think it's fascinating. I think Morgan Rodgers could be a huge, huge hit for Chelsea. Tony? I'd go Elliot Anderson because I think what he, when he left Newcastle, went at Forest, his improvement year in, year out.

22:43But again, it's a tough one to call because they're both great players in their own right. You know, watching, obviously, Morgan Rodgers on the left side for Villa and do that job brilliantly, well and get a lot of goals from that position was great. I just think there's a bit more of a player from all positions more than just one with Elliot Anderson. Does Elliot Anderson have his best mate at Man City? Morgan Rodgers has his best mate at Chelsea. Much easier with Morgan Rodgers because we know who his best mate is. My best mate was Andy Townsend when I joined Chelsea he didn't help me to. Gary just finally from you I'll go Tony with Elliot Anderson.

23:20Two for Elliot Anderson, two for Morgan Rodgers. Beautiful weight to round up. I've got loads and loads to get through so I wanted to move on to talk about Aston Villa. Gary talked about Garnaccio coming in as well. We've got Johan Manzambi, 20 years old. Giao Gomez in midfield. Yuri Tielemans has left. Morgan Rodgers has left. It's quite a striking thing for the club. Dino probably on the way as well. Win the Europa League, get in the Champions League. Right, the keeper. Lose a load of top players. Bring in some young players. Could go. Martinez has been, last year was rumoured to go. So, you know, Villa had a great season and it just shows you all these big clubs that you can have great seasons and loads of change.

23:58They're so struggling with financial fair play, aren't they? It's almost sad to watch that the rules don't allow, and it seems to be really counterintuitive, the rules as they stand do not allow a club like Aston Villa to play great football, achieve greatness, as you say, qualify for the Champions League and they're sort of pushed, pushed back in their place by the rules. Oh, you can't go for it now. You can't spend money now and try and dominate the Champions League. No, no, no. You've got to try and balance your books first. So it just stops clubs of that size really blossoming, I think. Martin, Samuel, is that you?

24:36No. He'll be delighted that you're pushing that same point, Alison. Gary? I think she, you know, Alison mentioned the financial, sort of the position they're in and obviously with UEFA and things, I think people will probably look at their deals and wonder whether they're effectively doing a number of these deals to make sure. They're balancing the books. Yeah. And I think people will look at the guy Natchez and Rodgers and ask whether they are linked. Now, the clubs will say they're not linked and there's this new rule about 45 days and there'll be an argument about whether the loan is a loan or it's effectively going to definitely become a permanent and it'll be all about the semantics of that and that that will probably play out at some point down the line yeah really interesting because i remember a few years ago you remember you remember the june financial deadline all these sort of kids moving including elliot anderson yeah yeah yeah so and they all swap deals in the premier league could do nothing about it so there's obviously some clubs who have got relationships that that deals can happen a lot easier do we think the garnacho one could be parvy elliot ends up playing like two three games and then just sat there for a whole season.

25:44It's a 10-game trigger, isn't it? It's quite a minimum. Sancho and Garnaccio have done the same transfers, haven't they? They're both United, Chelsea, Villa, and sat there going, Tom, it's going to come down to how they play at the very start of their time. So if Garnaccio has a stinker in the first five games, Villa ain't playing him. And the manager's going, well, I'm not so sure. I mean, that's exactly what happened with Elliot and Harvey Elliot, where you just felt very early on he's not going to get ball and he's not going to play enough football. Yeah. One exciting thing for Aston Villa fans though, Johan Manzambi, 20 years old from Switzerland, absolutely loved watching him at the World Cup.

26:24Platic chaotic dribbling. You're like, oh my God, he's lost it. Oh my God, he's still got it. Absolutely fantastic. I think he could fit right in in the Premier League. Loads more still to come in part two. Mentioning the World Cup there, if you are a new listener who joined us, we are here twice a week talking about the Premier League, the Champions League and transfers and everything in between. Also, me and Gregor Robertson do our fortnightly show about the Football League as well. So make sure you stay with us. You will not miss a thing. As mentioned on Monday's show, we do also do a quiz question to take us into the break.

26:53Nice and easy one. Or is it to take us into today's break? We've been talking so much about Chelsea. Currently, as we stand, how many players do Chelsea have listed on their official club website who play in forward areas? Find out after the break.

27:20Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I'm joined today by Gary Jacob, Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd. Tony and Gary squabbling like naughty schoolboys about who got the correct answer. Actually, neither of them, but they were both kind of close. Tony, you said... Twelve. Twelve Chelsea. players listed as forward areas on their website. Gary, you said 15. Alison went with the rather ambitious 21, but she might have just been being a little cheeky monkey, as she always is. The answer is 13. 13, including Alejandro Garnaccio. Only four midfielders on the Chelsea website.

27:56They have got 13 forwards, though. Just keep on in there. And loads and loads of more transfers to talk about in this second half of the show. But I wanted to talk about some news from Monday, for very, very sad news about the passing of Kevin Keegan, the former England manager, and Liverpool and Newcastle great, who died on Monday, aged 75, just after we'd finished recording Monday's show. And later that day, Tony, I spoke to you for a lovely piece on the Times website, one of many lovely tributes to Keegan, about what a hero he was for you, growing up both in terms of being a young lad supporting Liverpool and then also being as a pro who kind of had a similar career rise to him up through the ranks.

28:35Yeah. It was a very strange day, Tom, because when you phoned me, I hadn't heard the news and I was driving. I was sat with my boy somewhere. And after we finished having the chat, I had loads of messages on my phone from people who weren't Liverpool fans. It was like, Keegan, that's so sad because he had that effect on a lot of people. I mean I'd luckily met him once done a gig with him and I felt at edge because he was my original first hero before Kenny Keegan was one of the reasons like the Beatles and Shankly why I love Liverpool so I was intrigued by Liverpool as a city and also the people that were that pedestal connection that real connection with Liverpool and of course Keegan because when he went from Scumfroop if you looked at his numbers as a player They weren't particularly high.

29:25And there's some things I didn't, only speaking to Mark Lawrenson about Keegan when he first turned up. Oh, sorry, Phil Thompson mentioned it on radio as well, that he turned up as a midfielder and eventually played in a friendly and scored goals as a player. And they realised that he'd got something. And he was, to me, the player that played lower league football, that all of us who played lower league football went through the system. He always felt he gave you a chance because if Kevin Keegan could do it, A bit like Ian Rush when he was at Chester and went through the system to get to Liverpool.

29:57And there's something always with Kevin, you know, with the superstar stuff, when he was, you know, seeing him battle on a bike and, you know, just running, doing the dips and he'd be, you know, a bit like, who was the judo guy? Brian Jacks, who used to, he was synonymous with that show, Superstars. Keegan was the same. So, yeah, I think he inspired and also he really did, as much as anybody I've ever seen. and I didn't know Kevin personally but if there's anyone wore their heart on their sleeve more than Kevin I'd like them to meet them because you know some of the things he did along the way same in his management as well wasn't it that's why we got those moments about we'd love it if we beat them that's why he quits as England manager straight after this is a guy who's just pure emotion and heart and effort in everything yeah well my friend one of my friends phoned me midweek straight after and he said that he'd written a letter to Kevin when he was at Fulham and in second division I was coming towards the end of my career to say to, you should have a look at Cascarino.

30:55And I was out in France at the time. I'd come to me and my contract. And he sent a letter back to my friend and my friends kept that letter. So I'm going tonight to pick it up, the letter, because I want you to read it. You want to read why Kevin Keegan said that? No. Obviously, he didn't take that option out. But he thanked him for the letter. And I think, how many people would actually do that? Yeah. You know, we see the letter and then go, I'll tell you what, because he must have received, if not thousands hundreds of thousands of letters over the years and I just think that typified you know and I'm sure Alison as well you know was part of the reason of Liverpool I know you're mad on Steve Ioway Steve Ioway wrote to me when I wrote to him so do you know what I mean maybe it's that Liverpool thing at the time as well that people just them players acted like that you know really old school pros very classy lovely tributes on the Times website from Martin Samuel Martin Hardy and Tony Cascarino make sure you search for them by just searching Kevin Keegan and any of those journalist names you will find them let's talk about one of Kevin Keegan's former clubs Liverpool um interesting talking about all those deals that have been done already this summer obviously big move from Liverpool in getting Andoni Iraiola um into the club what do we make of where Liverpool are at at the moment I just wanted to read a few lines from an interview with Iraiola that is heading onto the Times website now as we're recording this so you'll be able to read it later.

32:17He talks about coaches being important in terms of trying to maximise the potential of every player and try to create an environment to perform better. We are the assistants. They are the main heroes. Is that talk of a Liverpool manager, Alison? Oh, I like that a lot. Do you? Yes, I do. The beaming grin that just spread across her face. Go and check out on YouTube any listeners at Timescorp. That's going to make a little mime. A little meme, yeah. A little meme. No, I hadn't heard that, as it's you, isn't it? No, well, I was lucky enough to interview Andoni, and he is genuinely not an ego. What he puts into, he's just very, very, very hardworking and loves football and has a very clear identity of what he wants his team to do and how he wants them to play, which is all I personally ever want from a manager, actually, is that clarity of thought, but a humility also.

33:16And he knows there'll be a lot of Liverpool fans thinking, well, you know, Bournemouth, well, is that sexy enough a leap for us? But all great managers start somewhere before they become the great managers. And I think he's been absolutely brilliant in not trying to say, I'm the big I am here. You may have misunderstood how wonderful I am. He's just being completely honest and saying, I'm here to do a job and I'm only as good as this club will allow me to be because it's a great club with a great history. And I am here to facilitate and make sure you are entertained and that we win things. And that's just a beautiful mindset to start the season off.

33:59I mean, whether he's going to, whether that attitude means, the only downside to that attitude is that maybe Liverpool don't spend his needs as big as they might. Because he's saying, I'll make who we've got great and I'll make them work harder. And I believe in who we've got. I mean, I probably suspect for Liverpool to be a success, they need to strengthen more than they have so far. Although if you've signed someone called Jeremy Jackett, I mean, the world's okay, isn't it? But there does seem to be a need to bolster the defence further, I would suggest, because we are still a little bit lopsided.

34:38But yeah, absolutely love that attitude. Interesting final paragraph as well in the interview from Ian Whittle on the Times website. He's talking about a former manager who worked with Iriola, Ernesto Valverde, and asked about the qualities. And he said, I think it was his common sense that I liked the most. He never made problems bigger than they were. He always understood the players. He was very firm with the things he believed in, but how he treated the players, both those who were playing and those weren't, I liked it a lot. All nice and very simple, isn't it? But what about when you're playing three games a week and you've got the cop expecting you to win at least two trophies?

35:07But how do you know that he can't do that? I'm not saying he can't. Before you hosted the game podcast, people were saying, how can, how can? People still say it now. How can Tom edit and host? I mean, it's a doubling of his workload. And look at you, staying up all night. Yeah, I know. I won't have a breakdown any minute, but other than that, Tony, thoughts? Well, you know I was adamantly... You were a big fan, yeah. And me and Alison had a chat one day walking out and I remember you saying to me, why are you so adamant on him getting a job? Because I knew something more than anybody else. I didn't.

35:41I just looked at him and thought, he's just what Liverpool have to have. That character that downplays a lot, but doesn't ever come over with the ego of thinking I'm here. And I just love that about him. And I thought, if anyone deserved the Liverpool job, it was in. Because Bournemouth were phenomenal. I went to a number of games last year watching Bournemouth. I came away, especially after Crystal Palace. I think I phoned in and said the best 60 minutes I've seen in football was Bournemouth at Crystal Palace. They battered them. That was the 3-3. They ended up 3-3. They were 2-0 up and they conceded some goals.

36:19And Palace were really good in the last 20 minutes. But I remember thinking the way they played was so dynamic. And Liverpool got a taste of that in the opening game of last season when Bournemouth went and played there and lost 4-2. But that caused Liverpool all sorts of problems. And I think his team will be a style that Liverpool have always associated with is that they're going to go after you. Liverpool are going to go after you. And that's why Liverpool fans like Klopp. It's why Fergie was so popular at Old Trafford because they went everywhere. Man City have done this and Chelsea have done this where they go after anybody in their own backyard.

36:52And he will do that. He will definitely have a style that will try to win. And look, there's never a guarantee on anything in life. But what I would say, if you want a clue as to how it might go, so there would have been people saying, well, of course Bournemouth were quite good because they had Antoine Semenya who was pulling up trees for them. the minute after Semenyo left mid-season to go to City Bournemouth went unbeaten is that not a sign of a manager who can get the best from what he's got it wasn't just him was it it was that whole defence last year which then lost as well and he coped with all of that at the start of last season and people forget he started off quite poorly at Bournemouth he had a sort of was it nine games without a win but he probably needs a left winger and some defenders doesn't he yes and a left winger which they're obviously talking to a few, Balcona, and they try to get them one day.

37:48And I suppose what happens with Gapko, does he stay? But they definitely need some defenders. I mean, who would you get given? Who would you get given? The Virgil's not that young anymore either. So who would you, do they need to? Would you prioritise a left winger over a defender, to Gary's point? Attack, attack, attack. Well, I think he can juggle what we've got in attack. we are quite well blessed in attack. I know Salah's gone. They've got Victor Munoz to bolster that. I feel that there was something fragile about Liverpool's defence last season and more than Jeremy Jackett we need. I mean, I'm glad Joe Gomez hasn't gone yet.

38:35Have you heard any rumours? No. Because we all want to see him score a Liverpool goal. But you were sort of vulnerable to the same ball all our time, weren't they? Yeah. They were vulnerable to the same ball all the time. Yeah, yeah. You sort of think I've got to... One standout feature for me is that the reason why Salah left, I, look, the club would have known whether he was taking the job. He was a manager that said he was going to be leaving at the end of the season quite early. And I can't prove it, but I would imagine there would have been some conversation about... No, surely not. No. But, you know, that talk of certain players and Salah would have have been one of them.

39:11You know, because he announced quite early towards the end of the season that he was leaving the football club. And so all these problems would have been looked at. And he would have obviously had a call on what do we do? You know, what do you think we should do? They want to ask his opinion. Yeah. Because why wouldn't you? If he's going to be a new manager, they're going to be... We never knew about Klopp, apparently, from November till when he came out. Was it February? Something like that. When he announced he was leaving. So four months of that time where no one knew what was... that could be the next thing down the line when Klopp left.

39:42Very interesting. I imagine we'll be getting more from Liverpool in the coming weeks, but you can read that interview with their new manager, Andoni Iraiola, on the Times website. Now, let's talk about Manchester United, and then I'm going to talk about Tottenham and all their summer spending they've made so far. But I want to bring United in, because kind of similar to Liverpool, flying a little bit under the radar, not making as bigger moves, but they've actually made my favourite transfer of the summer so far. Yuri Tillemans. Yeah. 29, 35 million experienced, proven brilliant player, plays in different positions fantastic, in this age of we've all got to sign 29, 25 year olds or 22 year olds for loads of money and not quite sure whether they're good enough and listen, Manchester United have done that I think with Andre Santos from Chelsea by the way but I was honestly chuntering to my brother about it on the phone, no one signs 29 year olds anymore when you know you're going to get at least three good years out of them probably more, along come Manchester United with a very savvy transfer.

40:37Anyone disagree? You agree? Not at all. Very good, very good transfer. And I don't think he plays like a 29-year-old. No. He was brilliant in the World Cup. He was brilliant in the World Cup. And I still feel he's on a trajectory of improving, actually. I think they've bought someone who isn't about to dip. I think he's someone who's about to become better. I think he's got, I think you're right, I think he's got three good seasons in him. Yeah. He's also a player that I think the other players they've signed, you know, Bumo, Cunha, Fernandes, will look and go, oh, yeah, that's good. I'm glad he's in the team alongside us.

41:08And a player that maybe Kobi Mainu can learn from. What do we think about the Santos transfer, though? Because I've seen him play quite a few times. And I'm like, oh, he's good at running around. But I don't know. I'm not quite sure. Fully convinced. What else? There's a few colleagues on the desk who are Chelsea fans who think he's got real potential. But is this another case? That's the common theme. Yeah, potential. Yeah, there's huge potential there. I mean, it's a strange one because he played not a lot of football last year. But then you had Caicedo, Enzo Fernandes. he's not going to get a lot of game time.

41:37I found it quite interesting that he was saying 29. And I think Van Persie went from Arsenal at 29. I think Berbatov went from Tottenham at 29. Well, that's what I was thinking of. And showing him at 31-32. Ferguson just went, he'll make us do better this season. Let's just, you know, don't worry about sell-ons and all that kind of stuff. Well, there is the short-term solution as well. I mean, even at 29, but there are them. It's like you shouldn't ignore potential. You shouldn't ignore proven. and if their proven is at 29 and you've got, like you said, three years, there's still a lot of play in that player to get game time and make an improvement on a side.

42:13But they clearly as well don't want to overspend because they had the conversations with Fernandes as well and obviously the deal was too rich for them. They decided they didn't want to do it. So they've obviously also got their own financial model they're working to. And Chelsea have been this advert, haven't they? All season, an advert for how not to run a football club. So don't bank on youth, youth, youth. You need to mix. You need to mix up. You need some year. You need some mid-20s and you need some older players as well. So it's almost like, why wouldn't you sign Tillemans? For the money, the only thing is he probably doesn't have the legs and he needs someone alongside him to do the legs.

42:49Well, that was why I was going to ask. That's what I think. That's probably why I signed Santos. So Santos does he's running for him. Yeah, I think, yeah. It might be if Tillemans goes to another club, he struggles because he doesn't have the person alongside him. So I guess someone else is going to... Awesome. See, Tom, there's one big thing here. If you look at photos of football clubs of every year, if you go from last year to the year before, the year before, the photos are so different every year. Family players have come and gone. So even if you sign a 29-year-old, it's very unlikely he'll do three years there anyway.

43:17So I've never quite got the idea of saying, he's a good player and he's still a really good player and he'll do a great job for us. It's interesting that no one even knew about the release clause. It had not been mentioned at all. That and Dinier, suddenly there's release clauses in it. It's like, you know, I guess United were tipped off. But it's interesting that other clubs didn't know about it and thought, God, that's quite a good price,£35 million. It's a brilliant price. Brilliant price. Did he go as a free? I think he went to free to presumably... From Leicester. Yeah, so he would have had the opportunity to leave that in.

43:48It's just a great deal. No, absolutely. Juriti will be wearing the captain's armband for Manchester United next season at some point, won't he? When, you know, Bruno's not in there, Paris Maguire, you know. He definitely will. He's a brilliant, brilliant signing. absolutely fascinated by the idea i'm bringing this up because i have mooted it on the podcast before marcus rashford back at mantras united it's going to happen isn't it it's going to happen mickey steve holland hello marcus mate come on back in no we've forgotten about that reuben bloke in you come son manchester hero back can play through the middle can play off the left it's going to happen well that's interesting isn't it so marcus rashford became tainted by reuben to glamour him by publicly saying they're not training, these players, the group of players were not training properly because he was beloved and then he became tainted.

44:34So do they welcome him back or not? Because I've heard United fans saying, oh, no, we don't want Rashford back. But I think there are equally enough fans as ever these days with football fans. There's some sensible ones and some less sensible ones maybe on social media. But I think, I think a lot of Manchester United fans would look at it and go, well, people keep talking about United needing to sign someone who can play off the left. Well, why don't we just keep the bloke that we've got that we're paying an awful lot of money and wages to rather than shipping out on loan again? Why don't we keep this guy rather than spending 70 million, 80 million on the 22-year-old?

45:04It's a coin flip for me, I'm not sure. Yeah. Because I think it'll be decided whether in the first two months of the season, if they do decide to keep him and he plays and if he doesn't play well, it will turn really quickly because there'll be fans that say, I told you so. There you go, I'm telling you. It's a close call. In the Champions League, Bruno Fernandes goes off to a round of applause, passes the captain's armband to Yuri Tielemans as Marcus Rashford scores a hat-trick. I'm telling you now. There you go. Clip that up, producer Jonathan. I mean, we don't know what he wants to do. Yeah.

45:34He may not want to stay. And I think there are other clubs who want left-wingers, aren't there? You know, around Europe. There's so much money though, and then there's that price that there's got to be met. But there's always, you know, there's always percentages of the deals and loan you can pay on the wages and, you know. But there is a narrative arc, isn't there? See, Alison's more in the narrative arc category. It's compelling that he does go back. Yeah. And makes a success. Yeah, Gary, don't come in with your realities about drafts. Don't forget the narrative arc. That's what's important when it comes to the game podcast.

46:03I should remember that expression, narrative arc. It's all about the narrative arc. It's not about the realities of the fans. They're a club that could easily have done the deal in some way. Yeah. So they've obviously fooled about it hard and thought, well, yeah, but it only can happen in a certain way, and that comes down to finance. But they've also opted for the long run. And then they go out and spend a load of money on somebody else. Who is younger and they believe we're better at the long run, which is what we discussed at the time. But Marcus is what, 28? Yeah. 28, maybe nearly 29? We just talked about 29-year-olds.

46:34We can say he's an old man finish now. No, I'm not saying he's an old man. No, he's at that. 28. 28. So, honestly, it's one of them. It's a coin flip whether it works or doesn't. I just think if you're another club who are looking at him, you might think$3.50 a week, they're going to have to do a deal at some stage, It's like the Aubameyang one. We'll just sit on our hands a bit longer and get a deal. When you want too much money, Ozil, you want too much money, you end up going to stand in the club. You're not playing enough. Interesting. Well, listen, Manchester United fans or fans of any club always do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk.

47:05Gary, we've mentioned it. We've mentioned midfielders. Let's talk about Tottenham Hotspur. Remarkable stuff, isn't it? Absolutely crackers. Finish 17th. Just avoid relegation to the Championship and just walk into the summer and go, Sandro Tonali will have him. Mateus Fernandes, no, don't go to Arsenal or Man United. Come on, son, come over here. Van Hecker, you could come in as well. Amazing. Remarkable summer. Gary, tell us more about it. Yeah. How have they managed to pull this off? Money. Is this Tottenham finally spending the money they have never been spending before? But they've got a lot of sales out.

47:42They're going to have to tell them. Romero's going to go. You think? Berger will go. Spence will probably go. Charleston might go... Jed Spence? Cult hero Jed Spence? England World cult hero Jed Spence? Yeah, that's the one. But not deserving hero. So they've spent some money that they are going to recoup in the future. Are they paying the wages? They're paying very big wages. Turn on these on very big wages. So this is Tottenham finally doing what they didn't do with Ezra. I think there's another thing going on. They were looking for a sporting director they were going to get someone from Germany.

48:19It didn't happen. And I think De Zerbe is, you know, he's just kept them up. He's basically saved them a lot of money and a lot of aggravation. And I think he's effectively put his arms out like that and go, right, okay, I'm a child of the transfers. In some sense, obviously there's your own lane there. And he's like, well, I want these players. And they've actually gone and done the deal. And I think had they not done those deals down the line, he is a manager, you know, we've seen it before in the press conference. Ah, well, you know, I wanted that player, but the club didn't get him for me.

48:48He's got a perfect stage to do it on a press conference if it all goes wrong later down the line. And I think you leave it his power quite nicely this summer. Tonali wasn't a cheap deal, as well as the agent fee, as well as the wages. But Tottenham fans can expect some players to go. But they still need a left wing out and they still need a forward. But yeah, there's definitely a load to go. Romero will be good. And Vicario will go. So there's a load to go out. So at the end of it, they might end up sort of, and maybe Archie Gray, who knows whether he's going to stay. Well, he's just trying. I think Archie Gray is quite a good player.

49:24Well, he was their best player up until the Zerbi Cup. And Bergvall. It's quite interesting, isn't it, to go from an approach of, they were very much in the camp of signing good young players with potential, and now they've gone, nah, nah. But hands on, Bergvall and Archie Gray were the two players that the fans could latch onto as a beacon of hope in a dreadful season. It seems really ironic to sell them. Yeah, but it goes back to the nightclub. You know, maybe I shouldn't know. Yeah, that's the reason it's not being. You know, the Zerbi's gone in and he's found someone he thinks is more attractive.

49:54And now they go, well, hold on, what about me? And they go, you know, you're not going to play. I'm off, you know. So I agree with you. I think Borgo's a really good player and I think the fans do really like him. Well, can I just... Also, Spurs have been quite clever with some of the deals this summer. They've got matching... I think their policy this summer is matching rights. So all these ones that are going from Spurs, they've all got partly sell-ons, but match-em-rights. So Spurs are obviously trying to, okay, fine, we'll sell him. But if the player turns out good and he's going to go somewhere else, at least we've got an opportunity to buy.

50:23So that's, sorry, in the players they're selling? In the players they're selling, opportunities to buy them back. So if they sell Archie Gray or Bergvall somewhere. My guess is they will have a match-em-right deal in there, which says, okay, we can match that fee and we will buy that player back. If, you know, down the line. Down the line. Down the line. Okay, interesting. So one of the comments he made about Archie Gray was that he wasn't convinced because he couldn't have a fixed position. He hadn't established himself in that one position. And he's clearly gone for way more experience in midfield.

50:51I think that's so short-sighted. If you think you're a decent manager, you've got a player. They're good signings, though. If you've got a player the fans liked and everyone around this table agrees has huge potential. And you're letting him go because he hasn't got a fixed position. The reason he hasn't got a fixed position is because he was managed by managers who didn't do the job properly. Arguably, you'd think that if you're the new manager. So you come in and you say... That's not Thomas, was it? But they've not let him go yet. Purely from the new manager's perspective, this player is beloved by the fans, has potential.

51:27I will find him the right position. But they've not let him go yet. They've not let him go yet. And they've made two great signings. This is exciting times. I think he will go. I think it goes back to his end of period at Brighton, when Tony Blue's got a model, which is youngsters, polished soul, and older players, and De Zerbe's like, no, no, I want to get more experienced players. It's not working. He goes, and I think that's what he wants at Spurs, isn't he? He wanted that at Marseille as well. Yeah, at Marseille as well. He wants experience. He trusts experience more than potential. That doesn't mean he ignores it, but that's sort of his mindset.

52:01And I suppose they would argue Fernandes that there's a potential to sell him on in future. He's only a young, is it 21, 22? 22. So they'd probably argue with him they can sell on to an Ali slightly different. The 20s, Ali's what, 26? But I think it's a very exciting time to be a Tottenham fan. Let's finish by talking about two managerial appointments. Arbeloa in at Fulham. Glasner in at Nottingham Forest. Big Oli Glasner, get me in the Champions League. Get me to a big club. I'm sick of the hierarchy. Steve Parrish doesn't give me what we want. oh, I'm going to go to Nottingham Forest and Evangelos.

52:33It's a different kettle of dysfunction though, isn't it? Yes. Because, I mean... A different kettle of dysfunction. Yeah, go on, bring this one round. Glasner was frustrated by players being sold from under his feet, not being told what plans were. He perceived the club to be quite narrow in focus and just happy to stay up and not really building on their FA Cup triumph. It was the lack of ambition he felt was institutionalised at the club. And so he's gone to a club where you can't accuse them of any of those things. They have other levels of dysfunction. That's fair. The kettle kind of works.

53:16Yeah, I'm understanding it. But they have masses of ambition and will throw cash at players. And in the short term, at least, back a manager in the transfer market. Whether they tell, Forrest, tell Glasner what they're planning to do next week and tell the truth is another question. But he's gone for a very different vibe. And all managers have the ego which thinks that they're the ones that can tame the owner. If Gregor Robertson hears you, you can't. You can't. You can't. You can't. But you believe that as the manager, don't you? What are you not to bother when you see your paycheck? Are we worried about either of these appointments, though?

53:57Arbol, interesting though, going at Fulham after Marco Silva is quite the job. That's a huge job. But if he can attract some... It's a great job, isn't it? Fulham's a lovely job. It's a lovely job. But if he can bring in some Real Madrid cast-offs, they'll still be good players, won't they? Because Fulham need to sign. If he can bring them in and add a little magic dust to a club that is very well run, albeit quietly run, and I think he has something to prove as a manager because it didn't go well at Real Madrid. I don't think it's a disaster waiting to happen. I think we have to be open-minded about that one.

54:36So if I ask a question between, you asked one earlier, what do we think of Elliot Anderson? Who was the other one, midfielder who went? Rodgers. Rodgers, Morgan Rodgers. I was to say, who was to last the longest out of Abelora? That was exactly the question I was going to ask. I was like, you're doing it. Because it's a really hard, I mean, I don't think Glasner will last as long. No. Because of the owner. The owner is just, it could be today's okay, tomorrow it isn't. Yeah. That's as dramatic as that. They got through four last season, didn't they? Yeah, I think Glasner was interesting in Palace because he always gave the impression he had a very high level of integrity and he was very principled in how he wanted things done.

55:16He's a socialist. And he really gave you that strife. And I really admired that when he came across. but then obviously going to Forest you think well this doesn't really tie with your with how you work at Palace and so it'd be interesting to see how he deals like if the owners just say well you're getting that player or you're doing this and what and how he kind of match it can he can he kind of untangle that or does he just kind of go with it and I think he's a very good coach you know but he has a very he has a very certain set system doesn't he which yeah maybe that will work for us but I think like Tony he goes first and is he even would he be bothered maybe because his payoff is going to be quite maybe that's all you worry about when you go to Forest what's my payoff going to be because you know you're going to get sacked it's like one of us after the show maybe me what's that payoff Tom your nightclub analogy yeah you've sacked me I'm just glad I was out of that one nightclub won't go is that an email from each other there'll be plenty more good football analysis and quirky analogies next week.

56:18But as I mentioned, if you are a new listener to the Game Podcast from the World Cup, make sure you stick with us. We are back every Monday and Thursday throughout the season and we've got that EFL Extra show as well. So we hope to see you next week. But for now, thank you very much to Gary Jacob, Tony Cascarino and Alison Rudd for joining me. Thank you too for listening. See you very soon.