Transfer latest and will Chelsea be World Champions?

0:00Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech Podcast wherever you get your podcasts. who says Halloween only lasts one day with Wayfair one night of Halloween becomes a whole season at home from larger than life yard decor and moody lighting to festive accents for every room in the house Wayfair has what you need to make Halloween feel like magic all in one place because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night they're made all season long shop Halloween decor Now at Wayfair.com.

0:49Way fair, every style, every home.

1:19latest transfer news too. I'm Tom Clark and joining me from America we have the football reporter who covers Chelsea for the Times and Sunday Times it's Pete Rutzler. Morning Pete. Good morning Tom. Got you out of bed to do this? Alive and alert, that's what we like. See how long that lasts. Excellent stuff. Well we're here we're here at the end of the Club World Cup the much discussed, the much despised the much loved Club World Cup and Chelsea are there. Chelsea are in the final. Let's start with them. We do want to talk about PSG and that brilliant win against Real Madrid. But Chelsea, some people will maybe say the route to the final has not been the most difficult, but this is a big achievement for Enzo Maresca, isn't it?

2:03Yeah, there goes without saying the route to the final has been kind, not least because obviously they've finished runner-up in the group stage and have ended up on the quote-unquote easier side of the draw. But no, you're right. Like, it's when you take in sort of the totality of the year, you know, it is almost a year, well, it's around about a year since Mareska was appointed and it was a pre-season in America and dealing with everything that happened back then, to come away at this point and go top four finish, first trophy of the Clear Lake topo of the era, and then also reach the Club World Cup final.

2:39And in essence, yes, you know, winning it would be great. and I think that would be quite the quite the fillet for Chelsea but they've kind of done what they needed to do here you know business-wise they picked up about eight more than 80 million pounds in in cash just from from from reaching this point in the competition and the final I don't think conveys as much I think it's only about seven and a half million pounds more so in that sense they've kind of done a really good job and what they needed to do taking advantage of being out here. Obviously, there will be consequences for playing a season this long.

3:16I think we're on 63 or 64 games for Chelsea this season now. The players are going to get a three-week break. That leaves about two weeks for them to come back and prepare for the opening day of the season. So that will be interesting to follow. But now, and considering what was in front of them, yeah, it has been a good 12 months with ups and downs, but it certainly has been. That little sigh laughter that you heard there, listeners, from Pete Ruxler, when he mentioned those Chelsea players getting a three-week break was his way of saying to me, Tom, I would quite like a three-week break as well.

3:51Pete, I hear you. I can't tell you whether it's a yes or no. Three days, maybe, but three weeks we'll have to see. Let's discuss it after we finish recording. Chelsea's getting here with a 2-0 win against Fluminense. João Pedro, straight in the goals. Straight doing is, I'm not going to celebrate in front of my former team, which I'm not sure I'm on board with when there's that big a gap. between when you last played for them and things like that. But a great start to his Chelsea career. What did you make of his performance? Yeah, he's had a really fast start, a huge impact. We were able to speak to him a little bit.

4:24And he sort of, the curious thing was obviously the season ended with Brighton, end of May. He's gone off on holidays, gone back to Brazil with his family, spending a bit of time on the beach in Rio. and yet is still able to turn up at this mid-season tournament, a mid-summer tournament that he wouldn't have expected to initially and has made a really fast and very sharp impact. That's the thing that's been so impressive about him is his sharpness. He made his debut from the bench against Palmeiras. actually changed the momentum of the game a little bit. It was just starting to swing a little bit more and he provided a boost in the final third.

5:13He and Nani Madaweke, actually, and we'll talk a bit more about Madaweke later, looked like he wasn't going to waste any time, really. And then, obviously, his first start came against Fluminense. Fluminense, of course, being the club that began his career and as you said, he didn't celebrate when he scored his goals. But wow, he certainly made a quick comeback with two fantastic finishes. First from the edge of the box. I think I saw a statistic that said he hadn't scored from outside the box at all for Brighton. So he quickly chalked that one off with the first goal curled into the far corner.

5:52And the second one was great. I love a goal that smashes the underside of the crossbar and bounces down into the net. but he's really made an impact and I think it has even surprised Maresca a little bit just because of the fact that he has been away he did speak about saying look I had a personal trainer with me I was working really hard and imagine I get the phone call from Chelsea and I hadn't been able to start quickly it would have been a bit much more difficult and then you consider the fact that they've also got Liam De Lappe obviously Nicholas Jackson is now certainly in a tricky position I think he's gone from no competition to serious competition.

6:32And I think for Pedro, he kind of had to make this kind of impact. And, you know, he's seen as a versatile striker. That's why they signed him. He can play in different roles. He's slightly different in that he likes to link play a lot more. He likes to receive the ball with his back to goal, drop into midfield a bit more, which just gives Chelsea more variety in their forward options. But yeah, he's made a terrific start and has made a really strong case to start the final. Yeah, his signing was something that you previewed when talking to me and Gregor before about Liam De Lappe and Jackson.

7:04And you said, look, there might be another forward coming. They've got a really strong forward line, haven't they? Now, as you say, we're going to talk about Madueke's potential departure. But I mean, are we looking at João Pedro, Nicolas Jackson and Liam De Lappe all now competing for a front place, leading the line with the likes of Neto and Nkunku either side of them or do you see it that Pedro can operate to the side of Jackson you know how are you looking at it yeah so that's going to be very interesting you know Mureska says he sees him as someone who can play in all of his forward positions so I mean Mureska is pretty consistent with the way he plays so it always ends up with sort of a five across the front which is you know one wide left you'll have the central striker the two sort of behind him one will always be Parma that's normally been Parma and Enzo Fernandez and then on the right it was either Pedro Neto or non-imadaweke obviously that would change you've also got esteval william coming in um we talked to you know we previewed him with the game against palmeras he looked fantastic um he's going to take a bit more time to adapt i'm sure and i'm sure chelsea aren't going to just chuck him straight in and see if he sinks or swims it's going to be quite a change for him he's not been outside of brazil before but you know the the expectations around him and his talent are huge so you factor him in, you factor Pedro Neto, you factor in you've still got obviously Palmer De Lapp, Jackson, Pedro the dynamic between those three will be interesting so the degree to which Pedro is used not as a central striker and someone who plays off a forward will be interesting and that will probably dictate a fair bit of the minutes but you look at how Pedro has played in the two games we've seen him as a nine, he's looked really good if you're going to say what his best position is it may well be bringing those other players into play like I said before I think it gives Mureska variety I think Jackson and De Lapp kind of similar players in terms of where they can hold players up run the channels De Lapp's looked really good as well he was suspended for the semi-final so we kind of just sort of put that to one side oh Jao Pedro the new toy has been brilliant and they've also got another new toy and he's been really good too so um the real question is about jackson and where that leaves him i mean jackson we've i think i'm a big jackson fan because i can see the what he adds to the team particularly off the ball uh in possession his movement the way he can bring palmer into play the big issue is is his finishing and the key question now is how does he react to this competition and I asked Moresca this and he said look he's been okay but then we saw him come off the bench against Palmaris and there was a chance really late on the game's basically won he bursts into the box on the left side and then he's got Palmer Square it's not the easiest pass because there is a defender in the way but he just slashes at the shot and we've seen that so many times where it's just kind of that lack of composure that lack of cutting edge which actually is you know was a key reason why Chelsea kind of stumbled a little bit in the middle part of last season.

10:13Just that lack of cutting edge and ability to finish the chances they were creating. So Jackson's going to need to be able to deal with this competition. He's going to have to respond to it. Otherwise, he won't play. And Chelsea have the options to know that if someone isn't firing, they are struggling, they can take them out of the team and suddenly they'll have options. And I mean, that's such a difference to last season. I mean, at the end of January last season on deadline day, they lost Mark Gouy, the young striker who's probably going to go out on loan now. And they lost Jackson to injury for three months.

10:45They had no centre forward and they were playing Pedro Neto there. Now we're looking at a situation where they've got three good forwards all competing potentially for the same place. That really does change the dynamic. Yeah, Chelsea and Enzo Moresca heading firmly towards the cliche of good problems to have. We'll come back and talk about Chelsea and their prospects for the season ahead after the final. Pete, I wanted to talk about PSG. a 4-0 win against Real Madrid in the other semi-final continuing the blistering form that saw them win the Champions League just tell us a little bit more about that game was it as dominant as it sounded from having followed all the reports and reading Martin Samuel on the Times website?

11:26Oh yeah, this was a complete dismantling of Real Madrid it was passing of a guard, whatever you want to call it this was a real statement of PSG's authority now within the game. It was almost, this was kind of the crowning moment anyway. You know, Chelsea could win on Sunday, but I don't think people are going to turn around and say that Chelsea are the best team in the world. I think that's firmly PSG's accolade. And they, do you know what? The first five minutes, maybe not five minutes, that's quite a long time. The first few minutes, it looked like, oh, this could be quite an interesting game because you had a couple of forays from Real Madrid.

12:07I think Mbappe had a run, Vinicius Jr. had a run, PSG zipped up the other end and had a good opportunity. And then they made two catastrophic mistakes in defence, Asensio first and then Rudiger. And it just completely killed the game. Not in a sense of, oh, the competition's gone, but it just made it impossible for Real Madrid. It just reinforced almost the levels difference. Now, obviously, Real Madrid are in a new era. Xavi Alonso has just come in. Luis Enrique came out afterwards and said, look, you can't read too much into this. You can't overanalyze this because we've been doing this for two years and they've been doing it for a couple of weeks.

12:49It's going to take a lot of time. But the contrast between the two was so, so stark, mainly off the ball. You know, PSG are the best team off the ball in the world. I don't think there's any doubt about that. The way they oppress are super, super aggressive. And it was just the fact that you then had Vinicius Jr. and Mbappe at the other end of the pitch, just not committing in the same way, not able to commit in the same way. It's one thing to do the running. It's another thing to do it well, to block the passing lanes, to know the right movements, the right shape to be in, to shift a team where you want them to be.

13:24Is that the same thing as what many people made of Luis Enrique with Mbappe and the crossover with PSG? and this idea that Real Madrid are still a little bit stuck with the Galatico image of where maybe the players just don't have as much buy-in. You know, you talk about that thing of PSG being the best off-the-ball team in the world, which I completely agree with. But when you then put in the level of talent that they've got, that's quite a claim, isn't it, to say these guys are working harder than anyone else. And that actually maybe that's the challenge that Alonso has at Real Madrid, that he's now got to kind of do an Enrique with a load of players that maybe haven't expected to do that before?

14:03Yeah, yeah, yeah, you're right. I mean, it's one hell of a challenge for Xavi Alonso and that's been Luis Enrique's greatest achievement at PSG. You know, he set out to do that at his appointment, set out to build a team after a period of hyper-individualism that was probably unmatched in European football. You had obviously Messi, Neymar Suarez. Sorry, not Suarez. Gosh, that's thrown back to their trouble. I blame the tiredness on that and Mbappe

14:35players who you don't really want more than one on their own and to be honest even in the modern game I don't think you can be that kind of calibre of player now and not contribute so much at least to a certain degree off the ball he's built a team that's kind of devoid of that kind of ego at PSG Real Madrid is ego which makes the challenge all the more difficult I think. Luis Enrique has been able to become the star of PSG after a period of indulging players as stars and that leads to player power in the dressing room that was no secret, it was the thing that all of his predecessors had struggled with.

15:16The big changes they made have allowed him to basically take control and build a team that's actually going to play as a collective. for Alonso that's going to be really really difficult I was thinking about this with Mbappe because I watched quite a bit of him I watched obviously Mbappe last season with Luis Enrique and it's not like he wasn't pressing but that's my other point there's also the point of knowing how to do it well and I don't think he's had the best sort of schooling for that certainly in the last half decade or so he doesn't do it well it's not just him I thought Vinicius Jr. a terrible game it was interesting just hearing the Spanish media's reaction within the press box and what they were seeing from their team obviously we can't oversell it too much from the game because of the heat which is obviously a factor and it did change the dynamic but for Alonso to instill the way he wants to play what we saw at Baya Leverkusen that sort of high intensity style both on and off the ball that is going to be a real challenge and if he's going to he'll have to try and seize control of things because it is such an important tenant of the game.

16:27And with Mbappe under Luis Enrique, he was, he, obviously he scored more than 40 goals. He had a phenomenal season individually, but it felt like the team were always that little bit flawed. And it never felt that, you know, this is all Mbappe's doing. And Pisture really wanted to keep him. You know, those kinds of goals are hard to replace. But I don't, I don't know if you've seen, and it hasn't, I don't think it's been broadcast in the UK, but it's, there's a fantastic documentary of Luis Enrique first season at PSG and there's the scene where he sits down with Mbappe and he just compares him he brings up Michael Jordan in sort of post-match analysis and says if you want to be you know as a forward you're a god but I need you to be unbelievable the world's best off the ball and he sort of hammers him for it and it's an interesting clip because that's kind of the main talking point of him in the modern game now and that was a really relevant topic coming out of that game it's how do you then have someone like Mbappe and make him play in that way and be as be effective in that way which is the which is the key point and it's not just him I mean I'm talking about Mbappe because that was the story of the game first time he played PSG there's an ongoing legal dispute with his former club over unpaid salary like it's it's it's it was a real dynamic to it but it's it's the whole team you've got big characters in there it's not just not just him he's finished junior but i mean the two of them play in the same position ostensibly so that's that's always been a problem so yeah it's going to be fascinating to see how alonso changes things he said there would be changes after the game and um and the degree to which he does that and whether that involves personnel as much as it involves style yeah big challenges ahead for jabby alonso just before we take a quick break back to that challenge for enzo maresca pete a lot of people will be looking at this and going fine yeah don't read too much into it but come on PSG have smashed Real Madrid 4-0 Chelsea have had the easiest route to the final this is a completely one-sided mismatch have Chelsea got a chance uh so I think a few people go well you know it's 90 minutes anything can happen in the game it's going to be hot again it's three o 'clock out here um so it's not going to be easy I don't think they do I think they would give a better showing than Real Madrid were able to.

18:45I think they're a much more cohesive, a bit more resilient team, actually. They've had plenty of clean sheets in the second half of the season. A lot of 1-0 wins. I think they've had seven. They are capable of making things very difficult for Real Madrid. The key thing is that Moises Caicedo looks like he's OK. He went off with an ankle injury in the semi-final. They absolutely need him available. Lavia's already picked up a muscle injury and we haven't seen him train. but you need Caicedo just to deal with PSG's midfield free who are probably the best in the world and the balance they have, the dominance of the ball run through Petrinha, it's him, Fabian Ruiz and Joao Neves you've got to have your best defensive midfielder and Caicedo is arguably one of, if not the best at that in the world so that will make it more competitive I think the challenge will be dealing with PSG in transition You know, Chelsea do leave spaces.

19:39Will they allow Douay and Barca or Kibaric Scalia or Dembele, whoever plays, the space to really hurt them? And if they do, then the game could run away from them quite quickly. But if they are able to keep it tight, then you could even see it going the distance. So it's not completely as one side as you'd think, but as a lot of these things, like with the Real Madrid game, game state matters. If they fall behind early, it's going to be a very, very long afternoon. Yeah, a very measured answer from Pete Rutzler doing his best impression of Gregor Robertson there. We will get more from Pete on the latest football transfers, but it's time for a quick break.

20:18It's time to test Pete's historical football knowledge when I ask, who am I talking about? When I say a former footballer who played as a striker for AC Milan, Marseille, Manchester City, Monaco, Paris Saint-Germain and had a brief loan spell at Chelsea in the year 2000. Find out after the break.

20:44Hi, I'm Katie Prescott from the Times Tech Podcast. AI is already changing business and medicine, but could it also change the way we look after our own health? In a special episode in Paid Partnership with Vitality, we look at how AI, wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

21:23feel like magic all in one place. Because the best Halloween memories aren't made in just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Here's a tip for you. There's a podcast out there with fans waiting to be your next customer. They tune in every week. They trust the host. And that host wants to talk about brands like yours in their own words to their audience. The problem is, you just haven't been introduced yet. We're Acast, where that introduction happens. As the world's largest podcast marketplace, we let you browse shows, see who's listening, and book host-read sponsorships or run your own ads all from one platform.

22:10Transparent pricing, real-time data, complete control. Start advertising on podcasts by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

22:26Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Pete Rutzler with me in with the answer to the quiz question. Took a little bit of time, might have given you a little clue, but the answer was... It was George Weyer. It wasn't that long. George Weyer. No, listen, they get so shirty, don't they, when I suggest that they might not know the onions about football. It wasn't that long. It wasn't. I promise. Answered really quickly. We did. We know, we know, we know. We did brilliantly, Pete. You've done excellently. Almost as bad as Gregor Robertson for wanting a league table of the quiz question answers.

22:59Anyway, let's get back into... He'd absolutely crush it, wouldn't he? Because he's got the appearance record as well. Exactly. He's got the appearance record. He's a cheat. But, you know, these top-level athletes, they never lose it. They never lose it. Let's talk about transfers. You mentioned him in the first half of the show talking about Chelsea. Noni Madueke, the Chelsea forward, on his way to Arsenal, it seems. Tell us about this transfer. but a lot, I mean, so much has been made about Arsenal's transfer dealings or lack of, a lot of their fans and commentators like Martin Samuel just saying, why can't we sign a striker?

23:29And then in comes Mikel Arteta and the guys with a signing of a, well, forward who can play across the front line and all this kind of stuff. It's very Mikel Arteta, isn't it? Very, yeah. I mean, there's been a bit of a meltdown over this transfer, hasn't there, in some parts of the Arsenal fan base from what I see, which has been interesting. and I think what you're saying there, the idea that they need a centre-forward, they are trying to sign Victor Diokeres, they are talking to Sporting, that looks like it will progress. So they may go get one, but yeah, there's this perception that they're overspending on Madaweke and maybe it's not the position they need.

24:09I mean, Madaweke, I actually think, was probably probably Chelsea's most consistent it wasn't consistent this was the issue but in the context of his teammates consistent at being able to beat a man 1v1 which is very important to the way Maresca wanted his team to play and would do so regularly and you knew exactly what you'd get from him and he would deliver it I think part of the problem was that he I think he would have better numbers if he was providing to players who could take their chances better. So I think Nicholas Jackson is guilty of quite a few misses last season in that sense. Chelsea's conversion rate wasn't particularly great.

24:51They missed a lot of... I mean, I think they create... Only Liverpool, I think, created more... Better quality chances than Chelsea did last season but obviously didn't fully reflect in the league table, you know, scrambling to get into the Champions League by the close of the season. So, Madoeke for me was one of Chelsea's better performers. He was certainly one of their most important players. certainly for Maresca so it wasn't I was sort of surprised the thing you have to remember of course is that Chelsea are bringing in Esteval Willian who plays where Madaweke played most of his games which was off the right I think Arsenal sort of want a winger from the left and Madaweke can play there but he is a left footed player so he'd like to cut in onto his left so he was never a player that was untouchable this summer.

25:43In fact, I think there's only a couple that you'd describe as that. Caicedo, Parma, probably Enzo Fernandes now. So once that interest sort of materialised, the move makes sense. And of course, Chelsea do need to sell because as part of their UEFA settlement agreement, they need to have a positive transfer balance in order to add new players for the Champions League next season. So this helps them out a lot, particularly a£52 million fee, which is a£20 million profit on what they bought him for from PSV Eindhoven three years ago. So for a Chelsea perspective, it works. I think, but I don't agree necessarily that, you know, this is a waste of money for Arsenal or anything like that.

26:30There is a very talented player in there who will fit exactly the style that Arteta will want, will bring some competition to those wide areas. which may take the reliance off Saka, for instance. Yeah, absolutely. Well, that's one point, isn't it, that so often we make about Saka having to play basically every minute of every game that he's ever fit. But also, Maduweke's quick, right? He's got real pace. Am I right? Yeah, he's quick. Yeah, yeah. Yeah, and I think that's something that Arsenal's front line can be lacking sometimes. When people double-mark Saka, or I just feel like Nani Maduweke, well, fine, he's not the Victor Gokyrez that Arsenal fans want.

27:05But if they get him and Nani Maduweke, that is a significant improvement on their forward line going into the new season. Yeah, I think the thing that made him stand out is that Chelsea were starting to face a lot of low blocks during the season. And in order to break them down, you need people just capable of beating someone one-on-one consistently all the time. Just so you make those overloads, you actually create something, you actually get into the final third and you have a threat. He was one of those players able to do that. And I think for Arsenal, that's a big thing, particularly for the kind of opponents they come up against.

27:38The respect other teams that show them, you want someone capable of unlocking a defence in that way. He will stand someone up and beat them. There was always a sort of contrast with Sancho where he could do that, but didn't have, as you said, the speed, the pace to get away necessarily, or wouldn't quite have that burst to just get that half yard to deliver as consistently as Madaweko does. not everything's been perfect with Maddoway at Chelsea, I don't know if you remember but there was last April he had that tussle with Jackson and Palmer over a penalty, I think early in the season, I think it was before he scored his hat-trick against Wolves, it was a brilliant performance he had that tweet disparaging the city of Wolverhampton but he was also dropped by Mareska for his training level in December he was dropped again but that was described as a technical decision so there will be some element of managing him well I think from Mikel Arteta but we certainly saw a player who felt like he was on an upward curve and I don't think you'd find, yes there was a sort of divisiveness amongst Chelsea fans maybe because he hasn't scored as many goals as he could or get as many assists but as I said before I think his numbers would be better if the team were collectively scoring and being as more as effective as they had been at the start of the season towards the end but I expect he'll surprise a few Arsenal fans and I think they'll enjoy having someone that they know can come into the team and you know what you're going to get and you know that they will give the opposition fullback a really hard time and that's what Maduweke will bring.

29:10Yeah Arsenal fans if you've got views get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Pete just a few more to rattle through before you go I know you've got to get over to preparations for Chelsea's big final. Tom Allnott reporting on the Times website about Morgan Gibbs-White Tottenham closing in on the Nottingham Forest midfielder after activating a release clause, I saw this one and was like, wow, this would be an absolutely class signing for Tottenham. If only they hadn't just signed Mohamed Koudis from West Ham as well. Explain this to me, Pete. Am I wrong? You don't need both, lads. Come on.

29:43Just being greedy. I think you're wrong. They both get in your team, do they? Both get in a starting XI together side by side? The great thing about Mohamed Koudis is he can play anywhere across the front line. Genuinely, an incredibly versatile footballer a fantastic talent I was slightly surprised and maybe this is because Maduweke's skill set is so much based on 1v1 play that Arsenal didn't consider him for instance because he does play from wide areas and he can go past people as well so you can easily I think he could easily play in wide roles as we saw him do for West Ham he could play through the middle if they need him to they've also got Champions League football they want to be competitive in that I think obviously Gibbs White is much more of a central player so I yeah I don't see there being too much of an issue there I think I think the both are fantastic signings and it follows that trend I know Johnny Northcross written about this but of clubs deciding right we need to buy within the league and it is a case of and it is in a way it's a little surprising that clubs don't all do this but it's just about reducing risk isn't it you know what you're going to get these players know the league they know how it works they know the language the culture everything it just makes adaptation quicker and to pick up two of last season's best performers certainly best players at other clubs I think that's quite the fillet for Spurs yeah definitely their squad suddenly looks pretty pretty impressive and Kudus I particularly like Gives White we know what what he brings into it he's a really talented player um to get him for 60 million with a release clause it's that's that's really it's slightly unexpected really and i think it's a bit of a disaster for forest obviously losing antony langer to newcastle and um i mean to come out of the end of last season and suddenly have your front line pillaged like this is uh yeah it's quite brutal for them so it'll be interesting to see how they respond um but for thomas frank you know these are the kind of signings you want.

31:53You want that kind of backing, say, look, we're getting right behind you here. You'd imagine under his watch as well that he'll get the best out of them. So there's so much variation to the Spurs attack. Yeah, because they completed the signing of Tell as well, of course. They've still got Maddison and Solanke and Kulicevsky. I mean, I don't want to get carried away Tottenham fans, but it's starting to look pretty good, isn't it? But it was also essential, wasn't it? You know, when you think about Son Hung Min's season last year, his influence obviously still I know it was a long time ago now but they're still adapting post Harry Kane it you needed players that and options that can sort of fill those numbers and certainly by by bringing players of the caliber of Kudis and Gibbs White you can certainly do that in the aggregate yeah absolutely just one final one to mention Jordan Henderson on his way to Brentford the 35 year old England midfielder lots of links with moves after leaving Ajax this summer.

32:50Pete, what do you make of this one? This one strikes me as this kind of morphing from Jordan Henderson from footballer into just hype man. I don't know whether, you know, I just don't necessarily see the idea that he's going to necessarily improve Brentford's midfield, maybe with Christian Norgard going to Arsenal, he's a good signing in that sense, but it strikes me a little bit more like, oh, with Keith Andrews, an inexperienced manager at the helm, let's get in someone who's going to be great in amongst the dressing room. What do you think? Well I think there's certainly an element of that.

33:19I think Andrews has always been regarded as quite a strong character in his own right so I think he'll be okay in that sense. I think where it helps is the loss of Norgard and I think you know I grew up nearby to Brentford and I've got quite a few friends who are Brentford supporters and I think the loss of Norgard you know as much as you know there's Umbermo and there's Wisser, Norgard's the one that's sort of hit a bit harder because he has been such an important player for such a long time. He has been their captain. He has led them. You've got to replace that. And I think Brentford have looked at their squad and gone, right, we need someone who can lead us.

33:58And obviously from Henderson's perspective, it's about playing in the Premier League as regularly and consistently as he can, head of the World Cup. He'll bring that leadership. There's no doubt about that. That was one of his best strengths and that will certainly help Andrews for sure and actually it does make a little bit of sense whether he can play at the level at this point we'll need to see he's had a few years away and coming back into the Premier League can be a little overwhelming with the intensity but you know that was Henderson's one of his strongest characteristics wasn't it and that's built on who he is as a person in terms of his drive and willingness to push the team on and Even if he doesn't play a load of minutes, I'm sure that they'll benefit from that in other ways too.

34:40Yeah, absolutely. Paul Joyce reporting about that on the Times website. You can read more transfer news on the Times website from the likes of Paul, Pete, Gary, Jacob, Charlotte, Dunker and loads of our other top reporters. Now, Pete, thank you very much for joining me on this show to preview the Club World Cup final. Thank you to everyone who's listened as well. Make sure you check out Pete and Martin Samuel's coverage of that Club World Cup final on the Times website. We'll be back next week to recap the tournament and that final against PSG. And we'll be back with Izzy Christensen to talk about the women's Euros.

35:10We'll see you then.

35:32wearables and everyday health data could help shift healthcare from treating illness to preventing it. Listen to the Times Tech podcast wherever you get your podcasts.

36:02just one night. They're made all season long. Shop Halloween decor now at Wayfair.com. That's W-A-Y-F-A-I-R dot com. Wayfair, every style, every home.