Tuchel needs to forget 'England DNA' and just coach

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1:55Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. On today's show, we are talking England and our old friend English football's DNA. An even older friend, the club versus country debate and Tommy Tuchel's tactics. Will he seek to control or continue to embrace the chaos? Plus, Jurgen Klopp and Zinedine Zidane join the cast of Big Beast Managers in international football. and what have we learned after five games in the Premier League? I'm Greg Robertson alongside the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel, the former Chelsea and Ireland striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino and the Times columnist and feature writer James Geerbrandt.

2:37Guys, good to have you. Did that feel like a bit of a retro, a throwback? England DNA. England DNA. The club versus country debate. We definitely thought that had gone, didn't we? Yeah, exactly. Yeah, club versus country. England DNA, you know. Well, it's not even our fault to be bringing it up because Thomas Tuchel, he's been talking about it after his latest squad announcement. Perhaps it's understandable. We're only two months after the World Cup and he announces his squad and has the press conference. It's another opportunity to see how he reflects upon that kind of capitulation against Argentina, the disappointment in the way it ended.

3:13And you kind of leaned into some of his responses for a column you wrote this week, Martin. Yeah. The headline of which was Can't coach? Are we paying Thomas Tuchel five million a year just for vibes? Yeah. Explain. Well, he said about, he was asked about coaching the players to keep the ball and possession and things feasible. And he sort of replied, oh, you know, should I do that or can I coach? I don't know. I have to think about it. Coach is coach. It's as simple as that. There's a great saying in boxing, fighters fight. And coach is coach, it sounds very, very simple. I don't hold with this, I never have held with this, that you can't coach an international team because managers through history have done that.

3:55Al-Francí did it to win the 1966 World Cup. He coached a way of playing that didn't have wingers and that evolved through the tournament. Terry Vendor certainly coached because he had players bringing the ball out the back. A guy, Tony Adams, was bringing the ball out the back for England long before he was bringing out the ball at the back for Arsenal. That happened under Arsene Wenger. He's succeeded by Glenn Hoddle. Glenn Hoddle plays three at the back with a group of players that don't all play three at the back, a lot of them play in back fours. Venables could alternate with a back three as well.

4:27Southgate alternated between back three and back four with players that didn't necessarily play in a back three. Fabio Capello literally got hold of people in training, stopped the training, got hold of someone by their shoulders and moved them to where he thought they should be. That's coaching. So there was a long line of England managers that believed you could coach in an international break, none of whom had the time that Tuchel's got with his players. I mean, I think he's got them for about 15 days this time. Had them for 50 days in the summer. I mean, if you're saying you can't coach players in 50 days with them, well, then that negates every new manager and pre-season and everything like that.

5:07It's not true. It's not true. Not talk about coaching basic technique, because if you're in the England team, one would hope you have the basic technique. But all of these players that we're talking about, they say they can't keep the ball and they can't get possession. Play for possession-based football teams. I don't get it. I don't understand it. Yes, you can. Yes, you can coach. Here's coaching. Messi. Why didn't they put two on Messi? Just as a matter of interest, I mean, the other nine, you're not really worried about. There's a goalkeeper and there's nine others and there's one guy that's going to kill you.

5:44Why don't you put, why didn't England at any stage in that, why don't they put a guy in the supply line and then a guy on Messi? Cass, I don't have an answer to that, so can you try for me? No, I was going to say, you can add in that, you can compare it, you can go, well, have someone on the edge of the box waiting for Enzo Fernandes to get a shot, which you clearly did four times in a row. Was it four or five quarters in a row? Exactly the same scenario. Now, can I just say something on DNA, right? So if the DNA is that they're not capable of doing it, OK, is it your DNA that you're... We're talking about control here.

6:18We should make that explicit. Anthony Gordon, in fairness, as there's a piece in the Times today, essentially he's saying that we don't have it in us. We don't have it in us to control a game. But he's wrong. So you think he's wrong. It's wrong, Gregor. You can't get into a Barcelona team if you can't control the game. England have the players. If you're talking about Elliot Anderson, you're talking about Declan Rice. But they don't play that way for the clubs. What do you mean they don't play that way? They don't play like Roger. But they have done. They maybe could, but they don't. Declan Rice has played that role.

6:47He's played many different positions in midfield. Elliot Anderson can play the defensive role as well. I mean, the DNA of... When you go down that road, is Thomas Tuchel's DNA then that he's going to go ultra-defensive in a game where clearly you were winning and then suddenly, by your tactics, he's made England worse. His argument was to try and literally go, let them try and break us through, break through our lines and create chances. I would say it's one of the worst tactical experiences I've had as a footballer. I'm watching it like us all, and we're all saying the same thing. If they concede, they're beaten.

7:25It's so obvious. You knew it was so obvious. I think we all agree about that. I suppose the follow-on is the conversation is what England should do next. So he's even said, I'll maybe read about a bit of his press conference here because it was pretty interesting. He's asked, has anyone ever, has a team ever won a tournament embracing chaos? He said, I'm not sure, I don't know. I'm just wrestling with myself because even if you control matches in the Premier League, how many English players are there in these teams really trying to control matches? Is this in our DNA? Do we really value control?

7:57Is this something that makes us feel good in a match? Is this something that can come easily to us? There's many things that happen in football. You have a whole list of things you need to get right, OK? There's some things that are more important. You come down the list, right? There is the real obvious issues which you have to adjust to as a coach. And as Martin was talking about, I had many different coaches. I had Don Howe as a coach. You know, Jack Charlton was very basic, old school, but knew what he actually wanted for his team. And many, many others. Glenn Hoddle was my coach at Chelsea.

8:26So we've had these great coaches who can, you know, see problems and change to stop the opposition. That's why sometimes you see half-time, you go in and you go, they're going to be a different animal. Because you know the coach is going to change things around. There was a game in the championship on Saturday, West Ham Millwall. Nuno changed two players straight away and had a completely different outcome in the second half. That's championship football. I just don't agree with you. James, what do you think about that? So many things. First of all, I think Thomas Tuchel, he definitely can coach.

9:00And when Martin was talking about sort of limited timeframes, you know, 15 days, 50 days, I was thinking that was one of the most remarkable things about Tuchel's spell at Chelsea. He inherited a team that had been conceding lots of goals, had, you know, four days with them. I think their first match was a game against Wolves and it was a nil-nil draw. Nil-nil draw, wasn't it? And from that point onwards, I forget the exact statistic, but something like in their first 50 games in Premier League and Champions League, they conceded something like 35 goals. An absolutely extraordinary feat and you'd have to say a feat of coaching.

9:38So I think whatever he might be saying and wrestling with, I don't actually... He's come back to this several times. He's talking about something deeper. Yeah, I don't actually think that he doesn't think that he can coach this team. But James, I made exactly that point in the column. I made exactly that point. I said what he won in six months at Chelsea, the teams that he beat on the way to the final, the fact that he beat Manchester City in the final, the fact that he beat Manchester City in the FA Cup semi-final that season. Real Madrid as well, wasn't it? He can definitely coach. Real Madrid, Atletico Madrid and Porto on the way to the final.

10:12He can definitely coach. And I think this is an abdication of responsibility by talking about these vague things like DNA and all of this because it's like, no, mate, it's£5 million a year. For£5 million a year, what the FA must have thought they were getting was a coach, was a guy that would do that last little bit that they thought Gareth Southgate was short of, which is that fine-tuning, which is the coach's job. I think there can be a successful England way that isn't just an attempt to play with a Spanish-style level of control. But I think there's a big difference between playing with a Spanish-style level of control, playing in that very composed, ball-dominant way, what we've seen from England at the end of basically the semi-final against Argentina, but also in the end of all the previous knockout games where they've come unstuck, is basically not being able to play effective football at all.

11:15Not being able to hold the ball, string passes together, create chances. There's a stat that if you look at after the periods of time, after the Croatia equaliser in the 2018 World Cup semi-final, after the Italy equaliser in the Euro 2020 final, after the France winning goal in 2022, after Spain's winning goal in 2024, and after England's, after Anthony Gordon's goal this year. And if you add up all those periods of time, it's sort of something like 160 minutes. And in that time, England have created less than 0.2 expected goals. Just haven't been able to find an effective way of playing at all when it really matters.

12:00So I think whether you play with 35 % possession and you sort of have a lot of quick transitions or whether you play with 45 % possession and you play a lot of long balls and crosses, or whether you want to try and play like Spain and have 60 % possession, you have to find an effective way of playing. Holding the ball, stringing passes together, creating chances. I need to say this because, did anyone see Hunsula speaking after the Arsenal game? What he commented on about how he dismantled Arsenal. He openly talks about the DNA of winning the first header, winning the first throwing, winning the first corner.

12:37He talks all about that, how that's what he felt he had to get right against Arsenal. So there's completely two opposite ends of the spectrum there, isn't there? Of coaching. I always think you have to be very adaptable as a coach. You've got to see all the main problems, what are the biggest issues, and the smaller ones can be left for another day. And we're getting so caught up in DNA. You can, as a coach, you can have 20 things going on in a game that you might be concerned about. Absolutely. There was another interesting stat in Johnny Northcroft's piece from that press conference. which he starred with in his piece, England.

13:12England 90, Spain 0. That's minutes trailing at the World Cup. So, you know, it's probably easier to be in control when you're never behind. The game state matters. England were spent a long time trailing in games and looking pretty desperate to do something about it. Well, there has been a lot of revisionism about the World Cup and how wonderful how progress was through it. It's a fabulous performance in Mexico because I do think with that Mexico game, there's a difference if you were in the stadium and you could see what was so wonderful about that performance. So I totally get that. But a lot of the other games, it is a half against Croatia.

13:53It's not a 90 minutes against Croatia. That was probably the peak. Yeah. Other games, what you were looking at and thinking, we could lose it. We could get beat it. We could get knocked out by DR Congo. You know, even Panama wasn't that, you know, by the end, Panama, if you look at it, you can tell that Tuchel was worried by that stage. He's got to be because he leaves Harry Kane in the team. You would have thought there would have been a plan to leave Harry Kane out against Panama and rest him or whatever. You know, we played the team. So there was a bit of revisionism about it. One of the things that England did in that World Cup and that Tuchel was very big on was athleticism.

14:38And it's a very interesting thing that when England get a foreign coach, often what the foreign coach wants to do is sort of sell us English football back to us. That was what Sven liked. You know, Sven was a military 4-4-2 guy. Fabio picks Kevin Davis at one stage. When an England manager gets the job, suddenly we expect him to turn into Pep Guardiola and Gareth Southgate gets castigated for not being sophisticated enough. English football has got this perception on the continent that this is what it's about, that it's very physical, it's very athletic, it's quite direct. And that's the English football that a lot of the foreign coaches have grown up with.

15:20And so that's the English football that they think is the identity of our team. And I'm not sure that's true. now because what has happened with Premier League academies and how good they are now and the Premier League itself and if you're an England player in one of those elite teams in the Premier League you have got to be very very good technically. I think we're capable of more. Yeah is there a right or wrong answer to this that's the kind of thing it seems to be a very binary debate like do we try and play like Spain or do I say we? Crikey that's a slip of the tongue Oh, absolutely. You'll never be allowed back now, mate, I tell you.

16:00They'll stop you at the border. I've done it as well. I've done it as well. They'll stop you at the border. Or, and this is what Thomas Tuchel's laid out in very black and white terms, he's wrestling with the kind of route forward should be now, James. The Premier League, whilst Premier League football is very technical and players are comfortable in possession and all the rest of it, I still think there's a difference between the sort of general nature of Premier League football than the sort of Spanish style that we're talking about. I think there's, especially at the moment when the tactical Overton window, if you like, seems to be shifting back towards a little bit towards possession not being so important and a bit more of an emphasis on athleticism, physical size and stuff like that.

16:46I think that the reason Spain are so good, they have so much success with their style of football is that it's second nature to them. It's how the, you know, when you're under pressure or when you're really fatigued or, you know, that's kind of, that's when it really matters. And that's often when you're kind of, I think, deepest instincts or the style of play that is most natural, most instinctive to you, kind of you fall back on it. And that's why they play that way because it's ingrained in them. I still think that probably, I think the idea of moving towards an English style that has some of the elements of what we see in the Premier League and what the players play week in, week out, that feels to me like a more promising idea than just trying to play like Spain.

17:36Quick one. It's a really obvious one, right? England are really not a bad place, that's for sure. OK? Think about Brazil, where they are. Think about Germany, where they are. Think about Netherlands, where they are. Think about Italy, where they are. These are four incredible nations of football that are having to battle, you know, finding the right coach. And I'm sure we're talking about other coaches of international teams along the way, Gregor. But that, to me, is a lot of countries fighting to try and find the right way. Just finally then, yeah, we'll talk about, you know, Jurgen Klopp and Zimedin Zidane in particular in the second half.

18:07Obviously, England play Spain in the Nations League on Saturday, then the Czech Republic, Croatia away, Czechs again in this mammoth three weeks. international break. What about the pull-outs? This club versus country thing that's reared its head again. Obviously, five players, Cole Palmer, Declan Rice, Marcus Rashford, Kobe Meno, Tino Livramento, have pulled out after the squad announcement. Does this matter? Is this a thing, Martin? I think it matters. Yeah, I think it matters. Gareth Southgate got to the stage where people were talking about looking forward to coming to England. almost as if it was a safe place as such, you know, that you could go away with England and it was a good atmosphere, there was a good mood in the camp and stuff like that.

18:54And if you were going through a difficult time with your club, it would be a good couple of weeks to have. Whereas there was a perception before, I mean, I can remember Harry Redknapp saying it, of players coming to him when he was top of the manager and saying, get me out. Could you get me out of England? and just give him a call and get me out of the squad. It's slightly troubling. The phrase load management is slightly troubling because that's a great catch-all, that is. Load management is, you know, you don't even have to have a specific injury anymore. You've just got a lot of heavy laundry or something like that.

19:32I don't know quite what that is. Heavy laundry. But, you know, but you can see, is that look, Cobby Mane didn't play a minute in the World Cup. If he's feeling not 100%, you know, and it would be pushing himself, you can see him thinking... What's the point? What's the point? Cole Palmer last year without a doubt played injured. If he's looking at that and thinking, well, I played injured all last year and at the end, what he got me was dropped from the England team. What am I running the risk of this again? Because I'm going to get no thanks for it as such. And I'm not saying you deserve thanks, but you can say, well, I'll tell you what I'll do.

20:10I'll give myself the best chance of being the best version of myself for Chelsea. And if I'm the best version of myself for Chelsea, he's going to have to pick me. I can understand that. Marcus Rashford, I thought, wouldn't join up with England. I saw the Fulham game. I was watching the Fulham game. I was watching it on the sofa. Turn around and misses. I went, there's no way he joins up with England. Could you just see the way he was moving when he came off? Tino Leverimento is injured. Declan Rice is the big surprise because Declan Rice played in the tournament with this normal hamstring problem that was definitely causing him trouble.

20:46I was amazed that he had started the season and played for Arsenal. I was really surprised that happened. He definitely needs a rest, without a doubt. I was a little bit surprised with that. You can read negatives into it, but I can't say that I've got any proof. but you do look at that and think it's not great. I think a few people wrote, Joycey wrote for us. It's not a good look. It's not the greatest look. Do you agree, Cass? Any concern about this? Obviously, as Martin just pointed out, you've taken each case in individual isolation and you can see explanations for it, but five in one go is not ideal immediately after World Cup.

21:27Most of them, I would say, I totally agree, they've definitely got an issue physically. There are some players in squads that won't turn up with a twisted sock. Basically, nothing wrong with them. Okay? There are. And England have had that problem years gone by, by the way. The number of players that didn't want to go along. It's not just this generation. So, as a manager, you have a quite easy one. I mean, I remember this being said to me. And obviously by the great man, Jack. He just said, because I was struggling about it, so Jack, I'm sure I've come over. And he went, okay. He said, got to give Quinn here a chance then, haven't I?

22:04straight away they think oh right okay you know what I mean that's how he would do things he would always think there's another option for him to maybe select someone else and it's interesting but that I mean that is 100 % it isn't it I mean that's that's the other side of the coin I mean I've written a lot about there's too much football and the kind of the risk of injury that players run so I'm not going to hammer players for dropping out of the squad but if you're Cole Palmer for example and I think this this has become even more the case now that the international windows are organised in the way that they are.

22:38You know, this isn't just two games that you're missing. This is four games against quite... Well, it's six in seven weeks, James, isn't it? Against quite good opposition. So this is quite a reason of, you know, if you look at all the games England are going to play between now and the announcement of the Euro 2028 squad, four games is quite a significant percentage of that. And it's games against top opposition, which, as we know, the qualifying games are not going to be. So if you're caught, and with Tuchel as well, the Serbia game in the last qualifying cycle was one that he seemed to, there was that game where England played Serbia, played really well, they won 5-0, and it formed a lot of Tuchel's ideas about his squad, about the vibe, about who he wanted, and other players found it quite hard to get back in and displace players like, you know, Dan Byrne and all the rest of them who had kind of so impressed him in that match.

23:29Maduweke had a great... Maduweke, exactly. So to follow on from that That makes this This is still a really important It did But I just want to make one point about The Serbia game Bellingham did replace Morgan Rodgers And if Saka's fit He plays instead of Maduaki But James is also right It did form the debate Right up until the World Cup Absolutely it did But at the same time So if you're Cole Palmer You're sitting there going There could come a moment In which It doesn't matter whether I was there Against the Czech Republic What matters is What I'm doing And that I'm clearly The best in my position If he gets 30 goals plus assists this season, then that's the kind of...

24:06Do you know what I mean? And so he is, I would imagine, backing himself to, if I stay fit for Chelsea, because Tuchel talked about numbers. Oh, his numbers are this, his numbers are that. If you're Cole Palmer, then you might be looking at that and thinking, right, well, if my numbers are up there, he's got to notice me. When Tuchel did his list, all his awards run into one. What's the one where the managers do all their lists? That's not the Ballon d 'Or, is it? Is it FIFA? The FIFA best. Yeah, FIFA best one. If you look at not this last one, but the one before, Cole Palmer's Thomas Tuchel's number three.

24:40Is he? Yeah, one, two, three. The third one's Cole Palmer. Well, Cole Palmer doesn't get the opportunity to claim that list even higher in this international break, but still a very important one for Thomas Tuchel and for England. We'll be back after the break to discuss the start to life for France and Germany under Zinedine Zidane and Jürgen Klopp. And we'll be discussing what we've learned from the first five games of the Premier League. See you then.

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28:05Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and James Geerbrandt. On to some of the big beasts in the international scene. You've got Xavi Hernandez with the Netherlands. You've got Roberto Mancini coming back to manage Italy. As Ian Hawkey actually wrote in a very interesting column in the Times, he even got Patrick Vieira who's taking charge of Senegal. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But the two fascinating ones, I think, James, are Jurgen Klopp and Zinedine Zidane taking charge of Germany and France. So it's kind of felt preordained for a long, long time.

28:43Paul Joyce was out in Germany at Jürgen Klopp's press conference, wrote an excellent piece on the Times website. Jürgen Klopp loves playing the hero. Germany need him to work magic again is the headline. Give us a bit of an idea about the environment he's walking into. As Cass said in the first half of the show, it's been a very difficult period for Germany. And Jürgen Klopp is walking in with everyone, hoping and believing he can be the hero. The landscape for, if you're looking at Klopp compared to Zidane, the talent at Zidane's disposal, the depth of talent and, you know, of the sort of rump of really world-class players and then the depth of talent beyond that is very different to what Klopp has with Germany.

29:25I'm not saying they don't have good players because they do, but it's quite thin, I think. And obviously the... They're in a bit of a sort of identity crisis as well. Bit of an identity crisis as well. Can he change that? That feeling? I mean, I think you have to say if anyone can, Klopp can. I mean, he's a one-off, isn't he? He just has that ability to come in and just completely change the feeling around. The feeling and the kind of even the national mood in this case. whilst allied to also be a very good coach at the football stuff. Cass, do you think Germany have got the players? Well, first point, they got knocked out by Paraguay.

30:11They scored a perfectly good goal in that particular game, which was disallowed. I would add that German football has been suffering for quite a number of years, as James said. I did the game, I worked on the game in 22 when Japan beat them and I was shocked at the lack of intensity in a German team. and Jurgen Klopp gives that in spades. That's what he does. He's got a 40-man squad, so they obviously have got quite a number of players. 16 uncapped players, he's got. Yeah, well, Kevin Shard is in, isn't he, from Brentford? And I think he'll suit the way Klopp would want to play because of his pace, his directness.

30:46I think you'll see a very club theme within the German football now. And I think it will be based on something that's been sorely missing from German football is the intensity of their play. That's been the biggest miss of anything. They've always had players. And there's always been this kind of... Zinedine Zidane's fascinating too. Oh, absolutely. The most. Three-time Champions League winner with Real Madrid. But that's his only job. It's like, you know, he's working with his galaxy of stars. And to some extent, he is again. So, like, will this be an opportunity to gauge how good he is as a manager or not?

31:19It's a very different job, isn't it? I mean, international management is a very... It is so different to club management because you've got so much more time. You've got so much more downtime, what Renewal's always used to call thinking time. And you've got an awful lot of preparation time and thinking, how are we going to play this? I mean, you look at, say, Thomas Tuchel, how long he's had to think about Spain and to think exactly, you know, withdrawals notwithstanding. So it's interesting with Zidane because Zidane's only experience is of that very intense, nothing more intense than Real Madrid, that very, very intense sort of club management job and then to suddenly come into this is only actually your second job in management.

32:05It will be very interesting to see how he handles it. I totally agree with your point. When you look at the players that he's got and you look at the France team in the World Cup, I know they came unstuck against Spain. Spain absolutely outplayed them on that day. When you looked at them at first and that almost 4-4 line-up that they had. It's fabulous to watch. Him trying to harness it. That's one of the most exciting things about this international break is seeing what Zidane actually does with that. And, as alluded to, continue this trend of big beasts moving into the international game. Carlo Ancelotti with Brazil, of course, didn't go as successfully as he might have hoped in the World Cup.

32:52Pep Guardiola was courted by both Italy and the Netherlands ultimately turned them down but wouldn't be that much of a surprise to see him making that step at some point in the near future In terms of international management Pep can't manage his own country can he? No, it's unlikely because it's Spain and he doesn't actually want to be part of Spain so whatever Pep Guardiola if Pep Guardiola seeks something in international management it will have to be with another country. It can't be with Spain. James, you wrote a column a few months back, kind of, it's actually outlining what this is doing to club management and the kind of, the era of the caretaker or the kind of, the club man.

33:35What do you think the reason for this trend is? I think probably a lot of different things. I do think club management is just relentless. That is why Klopp certainly, that was what Klopp said. He was simply worn out, wrung out by the day-to-day pressures of club management. And I don't think he would have dived back into, I'm not sure any club could have persuaded him to dive back into club management. I think the change of rhythm as much as anything else is why he was amenable to taking the Germany job. I also think that international football, for all that it's kind of often bemoaned. bemoaned and I think particularly in England we seem to have this attitude of oh god the international break is upon us again.

34:20International football I think has its appeals and I think the central among those is you know the opportunity to win something really big. I still think the World Cup and the European Championship are prizes that you know really resonate and if you're a kind of really capture the imagination, the opportunity to win one of those tournaments. OK, well, it'll be fascinating to see how they start. Germany take on the Netherlands tonight and France take on Turkey. Let's turn our attention to the Premier League. And get some hot takes from you guys after five games. I know that's what you love more than anything.

34:57Yeah, absolutely. You in particular. What, if anything, has surprised you most after five games? Could be anything, a team, a player, a tactic, good or bad? That Tottenham are bottom of the league. That is a surprise. You know, I'm not saying I thought they'd be top of the league, but I didn't think they'd be bottom of the league. Manchester United, to a lesser extent, but I thought they might make a better fist of it. So they're both surprises. You've got to say, you know, a whole city up there. You know, the three promoted teams, you know, a couple of them have got points totals. It's taken predecessors until beyond Christmas to get, you know.

35:35So that's a surprise as well. It looks like a good league. What I'd love to see is Brentford and Brighton maintain this. You wrote a column about that earlier this week. It's an opportunity this season. It's an opportunity. I've written that before. And sometimes it's borne out when I was writing about Villa and everything. But Brentford and Brighton, you look at it, Chelsea haven't got it together. I mean, you know, they're missing Caicedo, they're missing a couple of defenders, Palestri, and I can see Chelsea coming good later in the campaign. Manchester United have been very disappointing. Tottenham have been disastrous, really, I mean, given the outlay.

36:26So if you're Brentford and you're Brighton, and they're working off two things. They're working off, one, that they're extremely well-won clubs and their recruitment has been outstanding. But also they're working as well from a continuity, a consistency and a continuity. And there's a lot of clubs that haven't got that, whether they've changed the manager or whether they're just in the state of flux and upheaval. And you look at what Chelsea did by solving Manchester City's problem and creating one of their own with Fernandes. So, yeah, so that's the third. and I'm not saying it's a surprise because they're good.

37:02It would surprise me the longer it goes, but it's what I'd like to see more than anything else. Cass, what surprised you most so far? There's lots of stuff that Martin has talked about. I'd add in Brighton and Brentford. Extraordinary because I've been to Brentford twice this year. They dismantled teams. They did it to Tottenham. They did it to Chelsea. Two big spenders. And I kept thinking, is it time now that Brighton and Brentford could win something? You know, League Cup, FA Cup, you know, that opportunity for Brighton in Europe. Could they win? I'm sure they've probably won the favourites in the European Conference, isn't it?

37:42They're in Brighton. But anyway, European football. Man City being topped with being so poor defensively surprised me. They've been really poor. Giving goals away, you know, every week it feels like they're, look, they're top of the league. so five wins I think Liverpool this stage last year didn't have five wins had they? Five wins yeah and we saw that from there and Liverpool were leaking goals and getting away with games last year it feels like they literally mirror what Liverpool were last year where if it that's what Liverpool can be champions because that's what champions do if they're behind they're saying well it's not when you're conceding goals on a regular basis because teams know and who would be the other big surprise for me I think Everton look really solid as a side.

38:28You know, obviously Hull and what was, you know, they're exciting times for clubs like that. But generally, I was taken back by City being top of the league and thinking, that's exactly what Liverpool did last year, but league loads of goals as well. I have to, I would say Chelsea having conceded more goals than anyone else. That's just surprised me as someone who tipped them to be very good this season. Obviously, they still might be under Xabi Alonso. But I thought, I suppose I imagined Alonso kind of quelling the sort of chaos around. Can I ask you a question there, James? Just on that, right?

39:03You would have seen Bayer Leverkusen under Alonso a lot, yeah? Okay. Now, they went unbeaten for a year. Now, I couldn't even fathom that happening at Chelsea. You know, obviously, they've been beaten already. But, you know, for that coach, and we talked about coaching at the start, who's looking at his team and thinking, well, this is nothing like Leverkusen was like. Clearly, it's going to be a long project for him. I still think that he's got a good chance of being successful in the long term. But, yeah, look, I wouldn't have predicted them to have conceded more goals than any other team in the league at this stage.

39:37Which summer transfer already looks like a brilliant move for you, Martin? Fernandes cost an awful lot of money, but it served two purposes. It solved a bit of a problem. It solved a lot of a problem for Manchester City. And it created one at Chelsea. So in terms of, I think I'd describe it as a six-pointer, as a transfer, because that's exactly what it was. If you're Manchester City, not only have you solved your own problem, it's cost you a lot of money, but not only have you solved your own problem, you've knocked one of your rivals out as well. And the weekend that Manchester City went top of the league, three points clear at the top of the league, for Chelsea to end up with a midfield of Barco and Henderson.

40:20Exactly. there that is a cock up of significant proportions that really is so despite its expense there's much better value there's much better value at Brighton much better value at Brentford there's I mean phenomenal value at home I mean just incredible he's had the good run in Fernandes oh absolutely but this one in terms of impact on the title race potentially and the impact it's had on Chelsea that's a very significant transfer to me. I can only think of the bad ones. Go on, give me some bad ones then. Well, no, just that Tonali's been a huge disappointment for me. A new midfield completely.

41:02If you go Fernandes, Tonali, obviously, and they've played Ben Sancor, I know he's been there before, but it's that midfield. Tonali's numbers were never great. So, OK, data is one thing, and then there's what you see with your eyes. And what I saw was there was so much interchange play between the midfielders at Spurs that the forwards really were getting the ball a little bit too late instead of the urgency to see a pass and go your way. Send someone away. And other people, wide men struggled at Spurs. So I think since Tonali's got there, I've been hugely disappointed when I watched him. You can see he's a real footballer in there.

41:37But a£100 million player? Out of all the£100 million players, I don't see anywhere close to that. I think 60 would have been tops and yet Spurs have gone right over the top. I think Jacquet for Liverpool has been really impressive. Yeah, he's a good chap. He looks like a great centre-back in the making for me. There's, I think, something like seven players in the current France squad, by the way, who came through the academy at Rennes. Right. Really outstanding academy, doing some great, great work. And he looks like a... Yeah, I think you can't help but be impressed by the way that he has just, you know, taken to Premier League football.

42:18So naturally, looks like, already looks like such a good partner for Van Dijk. Looks very composed, reads the game very well. Yeah, look, he's very young. It's a very exposing position, centre-back at a top club. I'm sure his journey is not going to just be a linear, maybe it will be, but I imagine that he will have, you know, bad days ahead. But he does seem to be a really top, top young centre-back. OK, last one. To what extent has Arsenal's 3-0 defeat at Brighton, coupled with City's perfect start, weakened your belief that the champions will retain the title? Because I think we all picked Arsenal as our title winners at the start.

42:58Well, I was a little bit, just a little bit unsure with Arsenal, if only because of how exhausted, how wiped out some of their players looked coming out of the World Cup. But it was all the big guys. It was Gabriel and, well, William Saliba got injured and Rice and Saka. and you're thinking it's going to be hard if those guys are as exhausted as they look at the moment. Having said that, once they started, you're thinking, yeah, they're all right. Saka looks good and Rice is starting and it's all fine. Well, with Tony on Man City's defence, you do wonder whether they're... It's like Newcastle.

43:36Newcastle had poor numbers in terms of the chances they were creating in terms of the amount of shots they were letting go by. And so eventually them getting well-stuffed at Leeds a couple of weeks ago isn't the biggest surprise because that was going to happen sooner or later if somebody took the chances that Newcastle were allowing and Newcastle didn't get the goals because they weren't creating enough chances. Someone was going to give them a going over. You do wonder with Manchester City whether that's to come. if you keep shipping goals free against Sunderland there might be a reckoning down the line but it looks very early on to be a two-horse race doesn't it whoever finishes ahead of Manchester City and Arsenal look like they're going to win the league reverse forecast when I saw Arsenal get beat it wasn't just getting beaten it was literally taken apart and that was a hard thing to say none of us could even envisage that at all OK?

44:40And then I started to think about my own career and defeats I'd had at a 3-0, like, Portugal away, playing for Ireland and all this. And sometimes you come off the pitch and it's like, it's just, you know, that's happened. That's a one-off type of performance. I don't think we'll see that again from Arsenal. Their history tells you all over the last two years that this team is pretty consistent and not consistent goals. So we have to look at it that way, I feel. I still think Arsenal are the most stable-seeming team. I would be surprised, despite the 3-0 scoreline, if we get to the end of the season and Arsenal don't have the best defensive record.

45:18But I do think that this is not a team that is going to score loads of goals and really blow you away on a lot of days. Ever since Leicester, all the Premier League champions between Leicester and Arsenal last season scored at least 80 goals. In some cases, a lot more. And Arsenal last season, I think, scored 71, which shows you you can be the champions only scoring 70-odd goals. But I also think you make life harder for yourselves, obviously, you know. And I just, I look at Arsenal's front four, and then you look at the Man City front four, Haaland, Cherki, Smenyo and you just think there's a lot more kind of firepower to use a sort of kind of cliched word in Man City's front four.

46:11Okay, still ages until the Premier League returns. Not you then, you're not having to go. You predicted Arsenal. No, I'm in this chair today, Tony. I've had enough hot takes already, Gerald. Yeah, ages until the Premier League returns but we'll be back on Monday to review England versus Spain and all the best of the rest of the international football. Hope to see you then.

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