United dismal, Liverpool dynamic and Villa dreaming

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1:07Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Unbeaten runs ended and rivals defeated. Hype justified and hype quelled. Managers on the way out and managers under pressure. Oh, and Arsenal are scoring from set pieces again. It was a massive weekend of action and incidents in the Premier League. On today's show we'll discuss all of that and loads more. And joining me, Tom Clark, we have the football reporter and Times columnist James Geerbrandt. The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Arsenal, it's Gary Jacob. And the former footballer turned journalist Grego Robertson is with me.

1:44As usual, team, you will notice slightly more poetic and nonsensical intro than normal there from me because it's all still up in the air, listeners and viewers, at time of recording. It's about half past 11 on Monday morning. And as of now, Michael Carrick is still the Manchester United manager for now. How long that will last, we will see. You can get the latest on the Times website from Paul Hurst and the rest of the United team, of course. But notwithstanding, let's get your reaction to another, quite frankly, dismal performance from Manchester United. At home, losing 3-0 against Bournemouth.

2:19We'll come on to some deserved praise for Bournemouth in just a second. But Gregor, I was on the editing floor again, as I was for that Como performance. I don't really know what to say about the performance from those players for Michael Carrick. We'll get on to some of the scenes at the end from the Old Trafford faithful, but just the disastrous, disastrous display, particularly of defending. Yeah, I mean, after the five-minute monologue on Friday, dropping Bruno Fernandes, he needed a response. Actually, he expected a response. And this is what he got. It was extraordinary. And you're right, like the goals, the goals were a shambles.

2:58Ryan totally unmarked at the back post to fire in the first. Lenny Oro slipping kind of calamitously for the second. Even Senny Lamins, who you feel is like one player who's managed to avoid the vortex at Old Trafford for so long, has started to show signs of like getting subbed into it. And he was in no man's land, I thought, for a simple ball over the top. You could say that he criticised the defending too, but he just gifted them the goal when he slid out and then kind of half pulled out of the challenge. And it could be more. Aiden Heaven looked like a nervous wreck and gifted an opportunity.

3:33Lissandra Martinez came on and almost fell over as Ryan Breeze passed him. Harry Maguire was kind of making balls-ups as well. It was pretty calamitous. Yeah, I don't know. The scene at the end was extraordinary. because it feels like the only man that United fans are not sick of is Michael Carrick. They're sick of everyone else at the football club. And like Michael Carrick, they could probably feel it's time for him to go. I haven't said all that because they need to do something, but they know it's not as fun. Proof as ever that this is a story that's changing all the time and the problem that we actually have with doing a podcast, but Paul Hurst writing on the Times website, just as of now, the Manchester United board is holding talks at Carrington regarding the future of Michael Carrick, Omar Barada and Jason Wilcox there.

4:24We'll bring up those two figures later on. Carrick is not at the training ground today. He and the players are on a day off. But Bruno Fernandes is at the training ground for a potential treatment on a niggling injury. I wonder if he'll pop in for a word with Barada and Wilcox. But coming back to it then, Gary, James, your reaction to some of Gregor's points and your reaction to this performance. James, I'll start with you. I think one of the big problems United have got, and it is a difficult, really difficult situation they find themselves in trying to turn the ship around. No football club can ever really have a complete full reset.

5:00You can never sort of say, right, having a blank slate, we're completely starting over with a brand new squad. You have to sort of, you know, you can sort of move on five or six players each summer who you think of a... Yeah. and bring in and and the players that you sort of keep are the players you think have the biggest chance of being part of a successful Manchester United side down the road in the future the problem is that while this is going on those players who you see as maybe being the cornerstones of a good team in the future are being tainted in a very real way by what's happening and I think Lenny Jouro is such a good example.

5:39Lenny Jouro was as good a defender in Ligue 1 as William Saliba and Jeremy Jacquet. If, as we assume, Michael Carrick gets sacked, Lenny Jouro will be on his fourth Manchester United manager. He is 20 years old. Eric Ten Hag played him as a centre-back in a back four. Ruben Amarin played him as the right-sided centre-back in a back three. Michael Carrick yesterday has started playing him as the right back in a back four. Maybe whoever comes in is going to put him back as a centre back in a back four. Like, you know, how is a young player supposed to develop without any sort of, you know, that's what makes it so hard trying to turn the ship around is that you just have such an absence.

6:28And it was a word that Carrick actually used. He said the biggest thing we need is consistency. And I actually think that's right. I think the absolute biggest things that they need and really have lacked, they desperately need, you know, maybe Karek's time is up and he's not the man to provide it, but they desperately need consistency, clarity. Obviously, they need some kind of, they need a reset that is as much cultural as tactical as well. They've tried that. Yeah, they've tried so many. But it's a fascinating example, James, isn't it? With Lenny Oro. Really, really interesting. I was one in isolation.

7:07But, you know, he was a player who linked with Real Madrid at the time. And this is an example, widely considered, I think, amongst the United fan base as a good player, as a good thing. And one of those signings that United made that sort of seemed like, ooh, that's a really good signing. That's the sort of signing they so rarely make. Yeah. What a good player for the future. So many great points made already. Gary, I wanted to just ask you, you've been in this game a long time. Have you ever seen anything like that reaction at the end with a manager? No, no. Where a manager is so clearly on the brink.

7:36But, I mean, there were so many great... Social media has so many evils, but it does at least sometimes show some great examples of fans cheering Michael Carrick's name. And as soon as he hit the tunnel, it flicked. Boo for the players. Remarkable. As Gregor said, the fans have got everything, but disdain for everyone from the ownership downwards and the players, but not Michael Carrick. albeit he's not going to probably keep his job because he's a legend to them, he's played for them. But it reminded me of the performance a bit being the end of Willis Boas at Tottenham many years ago. He lost 5-0 to Liverpool and you look at the end of Emery at Arsenal, it feels like there's a kind of just the result and the players just don't start to play for him.

8:22And you feel that once you see that, I know people will say that you can't say that, but you don't lose 3-0 at home and could have been 5-0 at home if the players are playing for you. in my view. And Gregor was in the dressing room and he would know that. You know, when players sense that someone's changing and something's going to change, the player's mentality changes, doesn't it? It's very difficult to turn it back once the players think there's going to be a change. Yeah, but they also have a track record with this. I know there have been some changes, but this is not the first manager that's been the case with.

8:54It's astonishing. I keep, you know, admitting the errors in my own ways here. I thought that there was possibly signs of a season of stability here after what happened last season. The thing James highlighted, consistency, maybe a bit of stability under Michael Carrick. Yeah, I thought they'd finally approach that. I didn't think they were going to do anything outlandish or extraordinary in the transfer market because we know the reasons why they can't do it. They don't really have the money to spend it all in one go. But they didn't get the left back, which they needed. They got outbid by Tottenham for a midfield player.

9:26When's the last time that Man United get outbid by Tottenham of the way the deal, that shouldn't happen, you're Man United. And so when you zoom out, you think the ownership's the problem, they've got the debt issue, they've got the pass transfers the issue, they've got all the cooks above on the recruitment side, how many cooks have they got there? And you think, how is it going to work? I mean, Arsenal had the same problem many years ago, they had Edu and Mislinsta and they had Raul, and they had all these people, and it doesn't work. Even like, obviously, Jason Wilcox was getting it tight from the fans in the stand in very pointed terms.

10:05I have sympathy for him. He's totally unqualified to be the director of football at Manchester United. He's a guy who joined Man City as an academy coach in 2012, became the academy director in 2017. he spent one season as sporting director at Southampton in the championship in 23-24 and then got the technical director job at Manchester United you could question that but he was brought in as a part of the change where Dan Ashworth was above him Dan Ashworth realised he wasn't going to have the job he thought in his hands left he was assumed to his responsibilities Dave Brailsford remember him?

10:48he's gone and now he's director of football he should not be director of football at a club of Manchester United's stature and he's only signed eight players so he's getting it in the neck now because he needs someone to point a finger at same with Omar Barada and you can say that all the decisions that are coming from them have failed but in the grand scheme of things they are not the reason that Manchester United are in the state they're in So then is your scenario appointing someone above them or are their jobs at risk do you think? As well as Michael Carrick's you know we talked about Jim Ratcliffe and his whims and whimsy to change make changes Just go up the scale so Jim Ratcliffe is making the Glazers look like they knew what they were doing like it's you can just keep going up until you get to the Glazers at the top and ultimately that is the reason that they are the reason Manchester United are in this state because every decision that's followed ultimately leads back to them But as much as Manchester United fans probably would a lot of those people can't actually just be sacked like that.

11:50Michael Carrick can be, of course, and Jason Wilcox and Omar Barada could be. Do you think there's a scenario in which all three of them are at risk of their jobs, or do you think it's only Michael Carrick? How expensive would that be? Yeah. They're all about cost-cutting. And you've got Verveille too. Yes, true. That's why I said there's so many cooks there. It just needs one person's clear identity rather than kind of... Dan Ashworth was that man. Yeah. Dan Ashworth was that man, and he had a track record of, if not building a culture of success and positivity. And it's not only the sporting directors and the technical directors of the cooks, the manager also has the say.

12:28People think, okay, we've got this European structure. That's nonsense. The managers have a big say as well, even if they're called head coach in this country. So you then have that person. So it just gets a very messy situation. And to Gary's point, what's now being reported is that certain of the managerial candidates out there have different backers among the United hierarchy. So, you know, you're hearing that like Eddie Howe is Wilcox's man. You know, Christoph Vival wants to bring in Julian Nagelsmann and Marcus Kruscher as the sporting director. And that's not how the best clubs work. The best clubs have a belief and an alignment on what sort of football team they want to be, you know, beyond just a kind of nebulous idea that we play attacking football and we have lots of young players.

13:19What does it actually look like? But they have, you know, a clear vision of what sort of football team they want to be. and from there they then ask well you know which manager would fit with that at the moment they sort of seem to be because they're in such a position of desperation they're sort of hostage to oh you know you know to come in and you know and sort of set the tone basically or we want Eddie Howe to come in and sort of mid-season again it's always mid-season as well as it's always October it's a doomsake but there were some big players in the last season saying if we could find a bigger manager, let's change.

13:58There were some big former Man Utd players saying that. It would have been a gamble for them. I mean, it's easy in hindsight to people go, we shouldn't have done Carrick, but he got them in the Champions League and people weren't saying that in the last season. The Michael Carrick era, as much as I've been touting my sympathy for Michael Carrick, the era that it's been is probably the most, before this season, the most successful of the Radcliffe reign. James, give us your start. Michael Carrick in his first 25 games has still won more points in his first 25 Premier League games than either Jurgen Klopp at Liverpool or Mikel Arteta at Arsenal.

14:33Wow. Eric has got 46 in his 50. Yeah. And the Arteta and Klopp both had 42. And look, I'm not saying that Michael Carrick should definitely keep his job, but I do think there's a point to be made, which is that the other thing I was going to say is that the Man City game, where they lost 4-0 to Everton in Pep's first season, That was game number 32 for Pep in all competitions. Yesterday was game 29 for Carrick. Point is, you know, those are the three kind of most successful, enviable managerial tenders of the last decade. And they all started somewhat slowly. So, OK, maybe Carrick is not the man.

15:12But whoever it is, you know, there's going to be pain. it's going to take time to kind of wrest control of this listing ship and it's not going to it's not going to be easy and it's not going to be quick but the question actually is can anyone wrest control of this sinking ship I'm at this stage where I'm not sure because when you come to the point about who should replace them you are starting to think why on earth would you take this job well I've got bad news for you Gregor because that is undoubtedly my next question as fascinating a point as James makes about Michael Carrick's position and how actually short a time it's been for him in charge in comparison with some of the other great managers and the long tenures that were successful.

15:55It is at the point where now that is everyone's talking about it. James has mentioned some of the names there. If and when Michael Carrick loses his Manchester United job, who would be your number one candidate for the United hierarchy to be thinking about? I think Blue Sky thinking it's Unai Emery, but I don't think he'd touch it with a barge pole and I don't blame him. there may be a flicker of you know I don't know should I should I take this as an opportunity it's still Manchester United but if you think about the structure he has around him that he's created and built at Aston Villa to go into this madhouse would be mad so of the kind of realistic names I would say Eddie Howe because I still think he's a brilliant coach and I think I don't think it would do Manchester United any harm to have someone who for whom this is a really good opportunity as opposed to someone who's come in and it's almost like they're doing your favour or like I need to drag you up to my standard Eddie Howe is not that guy he's someone who I think could take them potentially on a journey but even he would struggle at the moment without a lot of changes above him to do anything Gerry?

17:01Yeah I think we were speaking about it before I think we all go I'm not really sure but Eddie Howe probably on the paper is probably the best but I say it's not quite as simple as people think okay we'll go for him because above you've got all this structure of the technical directors, etc. Each manager is going to want someone involved in their coaching staff. Conte likes a very big coaching staff. Eddie Howell wants certain people at the club. And all managers have people involved in their deals, whether it like it or not. And that is then going to cause even more friction going in there with the higher-ups.

17:39It's not going to be a case of just, okay, I'll just accept what you've got. So that's going to be another layer of complexity that comes into it. I think Emery's a good point, but I think Emery may be tainted by what he had at Arsenal, following Wenger, and he had a right old mess there, and he couldn't cope with the mess that he had. He did okay in the first season, but the second season once, he couldn't turn around. Also, his one sort of chink in his armour is, does he have the capacity to be that sort of leading figure of a club of the stature of Manchester United? because that's a big part of the job and he doesn't really have to fulfil that in the same way.

18:15He couldn't do it at Arsenal. No, he couldn't. And he couldn't handle the egos at Arsenal and he couldn't handle the mess at Arsenal. And obviously he's a lot more mature now, but like you say, he's got this big structure around him which he's built and he's at a level where he's kingmaker, isn't he, really, his own club, helped by certain agents, but he's kingmaker. If you're going to Man United, you're not going to be the kingmaker and he's going to be another... I think that, you know... Really interesting. James? Howe, I think, is the strongest candidate. I think Emery, I mean, yes, I completely agree.

18:49Emery is an exceptional manager. I do think communication is important in this role in particular. And so that's maybe why I would lean towards Eddie Howe. I don't think they want, I think what United really crave is, A, stability, and obviously they want to win a league title and they want to contend in the Champions League. Those are the three things that haven't happened. I don't really think Conte as much appeals. I was going to say, Conte, Nagelsmann, you mentioned, Gregor, you're shaking your head. Conte doesn't. So the things that you want are league title, Champions League contention, long-term stability.

19:31Nothing in Conte's record suggests that he's going to give you either two or three. That's a massive gamble on him being able to deliver. The team tells you he's not going to deliver one. Who would you go for? After James' stat, I want Michael Carrick to keep his stat. Honestly. Who would you go for? I mean, I was more in the kind of Conte mould, but you've all slightly persuaded me that that's the wrong choice. It's difficult to do with Conte when Spurs admit he likes a big coaching staff and he likes his people. So you immediately get that. And then he goes, I don't need transfers. But then he does want transfers and he wants some more experienced players.

20:05and then he wants this player. And he did it very well in the first season at Spurs because he got them into the Champions League. First summer they went off to Asia, worked them really hard. But then it was moaning because he got a few players and he didn't get the ones he really wanted and suddenly then the moan start, they all fall apart. The doom cycle continues. And like James says, it's like the history is repeated. Napoli, at Chelsea, at Tottenham. He's a brilliant coach, but then he's also a different system, isn't he? Generally, he's back to the three at the back system. I think the other thing about Eddie Howe compared to Nagelsmann, he knows the league.

20:40You know, Nagelsmann's going to be a bit of a gamble, isn't it? He's never played here, he's never managed here. That is a big gamble for someone in their state. And okay, he's had the big club in Bayern, but it's a big task, isn't it? Bayern is a well-run ship. It's a ship, you know. And he didn't really even succeed there. No, and he didn't. And the Germany record wasn't amazing either, was it? Nagelsmann has lost his shine a bit. Yes. He's still a really interesting name in the coaching world. I still think as a pure coach, he has huge ability. But yeah, he has undoubtedly kind of lost his shine over the last two jobs.

21:21The Germany job obviously didn't end well. And that brought up also the end of the Germany job, brought up a lot of issues around communication, dealings with the media again things you know that would be very exposed at United the one person who's not been mentioned I don't think we need to go for him was Pochettino at some point was looking to come back to the Premier League that's what everyone thought was the saviour for Manchester United he's not been mentioned at all I mean I don't think he's the right person for the challenge but he was looking to come back yeah Gregor just found out Conte as well I mean there's sort of this kind of narrative in some places about you know if United don't go for him it's like shows a lack of bravery to kind of almost take on the challenge of having the guy who's going to push their standards and stuff.

22:02But come on, imagine. I think you're setting yourself up for a fall for many reasons, not least the standard of the team at the moment, but also just the conflict that could be down the road that would be extraordinary. Well, you remember what you said about Tottenham on the day with his last game against Southampton, and he would say that about Man United when he walks in. Yeah, really interesting. Listeners do get in touch with me, tom.clarkatthetimes.co.uk. So who are you going for, Tom? I'm sticking with Carrick. I told you, James' stat has convinced me. Honestly, we might not be in charge by the time you're listening to this, but James' stat has persuaded me.

22:34More time and more patience needed. But you get in touch with me, Manchester United fans. Let me know what next for your club. Now, before we move on from that game at Old Trafford, we must give some deserved praise to Bournemouth on the cover of the game supplement this morning. We've called them the giant killers after that win at Manchester United and beating AC Milan in the Europa League. Gregor, you were there for that win in the Europa League and perhaps maybe the biggest compliment we can pay to Bournemouth about these two wins is that it's not even remotely surprising. Yeah, that's for a team that just won the first Premier League game of the season against Sunderland.

23:12But there's now four wins in a row in all competitions. I think signs that have started. There were signs earlier on in the season too that Marco Rose was going to be a good fit. Weren't getting the results performances perhaps deserved. but yeah the AC Milan game was pretty extraordinary I mean I didn't quite a lot of people were making out afterwards that this was a kind of a landmark day that Bournemouth little Bournemouth vanquishing AC Milan seven times European Cup winner it was a mad game Milan were down to 10 men and two goals down within half an hour moment of madness from Mike Magnon so that skewed the game but even before that point their intensity all the things that we know Bournemouth are so good at they really dominated AC Milan and they did the same to Man Utd they love going to Old Trafford I think it's they've won 3-0 three times in the last four another was that madcap four-all draw last season towards the final days of Ruben Amrum who they were singing the vitality Ruben is happening again and he smiled about it he did he takes it well doesn't he Ruben Amrum on the touchline in the rain watching his side get beaten.

24:24Ryan for Bournemouth, another talent, only 20. He has got all the makings of a real future superstar, hasn't he? He has, yeah. Yeah, and it's been a quite start to the season, like a fairly slow start to the season for him. But yeah, his pace and his power and that kind of ability to drive inside onto his left foot from the right. Like, having said that, like Marcus Tavernier is someone who, like he's, I don't know, he's not in the conversation for like some of the Premier League's most effective and impressive and inconsistent forwards. Yeah, but he is. He is. He's got, I think he's got five goals this season.

24:59He's got a wonderful left foot. His delivery into the box against DC Milan as well for Evan Nielsen's header from which they got the penalty. When he cuts in on his left too, his deliveries are just a joy to watch. So Clivert kind of stepping up. Evan Nielsen's having a really good start to the season. Some real talent in forward areas. and yeah, as you say, we've known this about one with one of the three Bs for quite some time. Yeah, James Hill impressing at the back as well. Let's move on to talk about another manager under pressure, though, Crystal Palace boss Pierre Sarge. They were beaten at home against Newcastle.

25:38James, you were there for this one. Just give us a broad outline of this game. Newcastle deserved winners for you. Worries for Palace, fair? I mean, certainly worries for Palace are fair. This was a very strange game, which had one completely decisive period, which was the 15 minutes after halftime where Palace were, you know, in that 15 minutes, Newcastle were great, scored two really well-worked goals, had another goal disallowed. Palace obviously were, you know, pretty bad in this, that 15-minute period. The rest of the game, actually, Palace played really well. They dominated the first half.

26:16They also finished the game quite strongly, albeit without really sort of threatening to get back into it. So, yeah, and Pierre Sarge said afterwards, you know, we sort of, we missed 15 minutes in this game. You know, we just had 15 minutes where we had a lack of everything. Quite a damning line, that from a manager, I'd say. Not great. Not brilliant. I feel sorry for Pierre Sarge. he is a manager who I think really deserved his shot at a Premier League job two great jobs at Lyon and Lens last season where Lens actually had the they finished second in Ligue 1 and they had the second best defensive record whereas Palace now have the worst at the moment I think he's been dealt a very tough hand if you look at Palace's eight most used players in the Premier League last season Lacroix and Munoz have both gone and Dean Henderson, Mateta and Ismail Assar none of them have been able to stay fit for him this season so of those eight you're just looking at Wharton, Mitchell and Chris Richards the team is just not nearly as good as it you know last season the back three they started but last season was Richards, Lacroix and Marguerite and now it's Richards, De Sazze and Canvo.

27:37It's not as good. So I feel he's been dealt a bit of a tough hand, but he is certainly under big pressure now. He desperately, desperately needs a result. Yeah, Gary, what's your reading of the situation at Crystal Palace, given James' analysis of this game? I think if you zoom out a bit, the problem started the previous summer when they won the FA Cup and Glasner wants to... Kick on. Kick on, basically. And he doesn't get... The way the Palace deal, they like to deal late in the window to get deals on price, etc. And he doesn't get what he wants. And then he starts the season already complaining.

28:20Okay, he does very well when he's a conference league. But he's been their best manager in recent history. If you leave aside what Roy did. Yeah. And he's won two Cups. And if you get him on board and you've got the transfers and he agrees and everyone's happy and that's a happy ship, you really start to kick on. But it really feels like there's been a bit of a few sliding doors moments at Palace and they've obviously haven't been able to agree things with him. Maybe he wanted too much. In January, they went the other way. He pushed for players. You remember he was like threatening to leave and whatever.

28:54And then he wanted players and he signs up Brennan Johnson. They signed Australian Larson. Well, anyone who's seen the way Johnson's played over the past year is not really. And even Larson, they've ever played for. So, you know, it feels like their past two windows of recruitment is not good enough. This summer, they wanted faster centre-backs. They missed out on two of them, one who failed on medical, and they ended up with De Sasse, who's not particularly fast. He did well at West Ham, but he's not fast. So he doesn't play in Sarge's system because Sarge wants a fast centre-back. That said, Sarge hasn't adapted either.

29:25He needs to adapt to what he's got, you know. I think with the Munoz one, I think he was got to the age where they thought they think, well, let's get the money from now. So where would you say, so Palace 17th at the minute, seven points, two wins from eight. The amount of goals they're conceding, like James said, is just too much. So where would you put him then? Because we've talked about the team in 16th, Manchester United with Michael Carrick, as it stands, still the manager. Pierre Sarge, still the manager. Where is he at on the scales? Palace have already... Under real threat. He's not quite like, you know, when the ball was there after three games Palace made, was it three or four games, they sort of say, okay, we've got to go, but Palace were already starting to look at managers in the first international break.

30:04Right. So they clearly already had doubts. Steve Parrish gives an interview and it wasn't exactly a ringing endorsement of the manager. So as soon as you see those sort of things, it's almost they already accept inside that they've maybe either made a mistake or this is not going to work. And now what they've got come out, Fulham, Tottenham, Hoffenheim, Liverpool before the international break and Coventry after it. So, you know, would you make a change in the international break and give someone Coventry? And who is it? Have you got any intel on that? They've had talks about Deich and about McKenna.

30:37They've obviously had flirt with McKenna in the past. They flirted with Deich in the past. I don't know if the fans would overly warm to Sean Deich coming in. I don't think they would. I think McKenna would be an interesting thing, but his record at Ipswich wasn't amazing when they came up. And is he going to do first season? You know, coming in the middle of the season, it's not an easy task. Definitely. And one of the, obviously, they're looking for investment in the club. So the three American owners, separate to Steve Parrish, they're going to want someone who makes sure they stay up this year.

31:09Another potential. What would you go for? Torth. What would you do? Michael Carrick. Is it Michael Carrick again? So when he gets sacked, he comes down here? Michael Carrick. I feel sorry for PSI, as James does. And I think, again, it's not a good scenario for any manager going into this club. That's how I look at it. These scenarios before, maybe Palace you'd have gone in, as James outlined very well there. How old is Roy? Any manager. Goodness me, they wouldn't want Roy Hudson back, would they? And I agree with you from the Palace fans I know. I'm not sure they'd be that enthused about Sean Dyche.

31:41James, just very quickly before we move on. Newcastle, you mentioned a good 15-minute spell. Madhaisi Eisler, a new manager to the Premier League. We're talking about Pierre Sarge and things. Another manager who's had doubts cast about his suitability and things. Big win for him. This signs for you in this one that he will be okay? I think certainly this is a really, really big, big win. And I think so far he's doing a really good job. I mean, talk about Sarge having a tough hand, you know. Yeah, yeah. A Gaisler, you know, if anything, an even more difficult situation to come into. losing Tonali, Gamarais, Gordon in the summer and having obviously a big rebuild with lots of young players.

32:23Well, that was interesting. He very pointedly referred during his press conference to having selected Fabian Scher and Joelinton because they were old, basically. Right, interesting. He sort of said, you know, with age comes experience and with experience comes leadership. And he said, you know, he said our young team was shaking a bit after obviously had some really bad results including the 4-1 against Coventry it's early days isn't it but I think he's doing a good job you know having walked into a really difficult situation Newcastle up to 8th Europe beckons it just shows how early it is in the season just before we go to a break I wanted to commend all the Sunderland and Leeds fans who made the journey to the Stadium of Light and stuck at it for what was the worst game of the season so far.

33:14Maybe the weather played a part, but there was swirling hustle and bustle. Jadon Bogle probably lucky not to get sent off in this one, but a 0-0 draw playing out there. A draw as well, Nottingham Forest quietly in the background. Oliver Glasner talking about Crystal Palace, wondering about potential pressure on him. One-all with Ipswich and Hull responding to Kit Shepard last week, suggesting that maybe they're on the way down. One-all draw with Brentford, a good result for them. Let's go to a break, but loads more still to come. in the second half. A quiz question to take us there. Nice and easy, I think, this one.

33:46Erling Haaland is the Premier League's top scorer with nine goals. Who is second with six? Find out after the break.

34:02People are disappearing again. Just like before. Nocturne. Streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October Liev Schreiber Walter has a way of getting to people and when he does, they don't come back Stephen Graham The world is full of dark places Zasi Beetz How's he getting messages out? He's locked under six feet of concrete She's still alive I'm a fighter Nocturne Streaming on Apple TV on the 30th of October Subscription required At PwC, we optimize the systems that put your data to work so you can scale your AI from proof of concept to competitive edge and accelerate your tech evolution so you can redefine what's possible.

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35:40Welcome back to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got James Geerbrandt, Gary Jacob and Gregor Robertson with me. Gregor Robertson, back on form. Might have given him an easy one to let him get back into the swing of things with the quiz. Question, the second top scorer in the Premier League with six is Gregor. Alexander Isak. Alexander Isak. You said Michael Carrick. very very good Gary Jacob with all the insights on the movers and shakers and all the gags on this week's show as well I wanted to ask Liverpool getting a big win an impressive win against title challengers Brighton from a few weeks ago a lot of listeners thinking we slightly overhyped Brighton in last week's show and perhaps proving so in this defeat at Anfield a 2-0 win for Liverpool a 2-0 win also for Tottenham at Stamford Bridge I wanted to pose the question to the three of you which win was bigger or more impressive or more important Tottenham's win at Stamford Bridge or Liverpool's win at Anfield Gregor kick us off I think it's got to be Tottenham's quite so just considering where they've where they've been this is a kind of bit of a statement win and I think a deserved win and there was kind of and I think as De Zerby said the best performance of his time as Tottenham manager so for all those reasons I think it it probably is it was a huge disappointment to lose James Madison hopefully not for too long because he's as De Zervi said he makes my job as a coach much easier but they were moving the ball with a lot more pace and purpose I thought and that's kind of the kind of fundamental I always think about when I think about De Zervi's teams at their best there's a lot of talk about the way he tries to beat the press and they're building out from the back but that only works if they're moving the ball really quickly and they did in this game it wasn't laboured at all as it has been in some others and there's other people as well who think Spurs have been playing well for most of the season and not getting the results they deserve I'll report a tumult not being one of them yeah I mean I was at the Forest game early in the season and they didn't play well in that game at all so yeah big win for them look it was a big win for Liverpool too because we didn't overhype Brighton Brighton like I think the goals changed the game in that in that match by Ayari Mr.

37:59Sitter earlier on it could have been a bit of a different game and there wasn't much in it afterwards but there's starting to be signs with Liverpool maybe there's starting to be signs with Liverpool and Iriola with the intensity I think maybe with one of those goals Araujo pressing really high he did a really interesting interview by the way with Paul Joyce do go and check it out on the Times website but starting to see some signs that there is relationships coming together on the pitch Florian Wurtz involved Isak as well Isak's in the goals. Yeah. I mean, I saw them last week at Brentford and I thought actually Brentford played sliced through very easily.

38:33And the red card really changed that game. And up front, they weren't doing enough of the hard work. But they created chances. And there were signs that Verth was going to, you know, he created the equaliser. And there were signs in that game. But I thought that up front, they played well yesterday. And they did a lot of the basics that Iriola would want from his team. And Barclay as well. And we're talking about players that cost them£100 million. so you really would hope that they would come good but there's been so much talk around it not quite fitting and not quite getting together. I felt like that was a significant win.

39:04But I mean, James, of those two performances, of those two victories, significances, points you wanted to raise, anything you wanted to jump off the back of? I mean, I also am in the camp of thinking Tottenham have played pretty well actually at times this season. It sort of feels like, you know, in every game they've sort of had a really good, you know, 30 or 40 or 45 minutes and not quite made it pay. So I think what was impressive was that they, you know, missed maybe the odd half chance or two in that game against Chelsea, but hung in the game. And yeah, I think Liverpool, they both seem to be building well.

39:44Liverpool, you know, you look at that back four and you think, right now things can change, but you look at that back four and you think, yeah, wow, they've, you know, Araujo and Jacquet, they've nailed those signings and suddenly you're sort of feeling it's a pretty good unit actually I wanted to talk about one thing as well just briefly, the Matthias Tell goal for Tottenham, we and everyone else in the media is really brushing over that one it was an absolutely brilliant goal from a player who I would have said where did that come from? an absolutely fantastic finish and run and strike and every single thing about it and perhaps a sign that De Zerbe is working with these players than they are if Matthias Tell is producing that kind of a moment.

40:24Although he's always really honest afterwards saying like, you know, Matthias Tell's a player who needs to learn football but he's a big talent and he's always the same. There's been a few instances this season where he said that and he's not the only player saying that about him. He says that about Savinho or Savio or whatever you call it. Yeah. I think he's probably right. Like, he's somebody you need to see far more consistency from but he has, he's quick, he's, you know, He's got good feet and I think he could have more impact on games. That's ultimately what De Zerbe wants to see from him.

41:00Just looking at him, I think there's two positions, centre forward and goalkeeper. To me, those are the two that they didn't strengthen in the summer. For Spurs. I think that could be the difference for them actually. Maybe in January they look at it. Speaking about top goalkeepers as well, Chelsea, Mike Pender's bigged up in terms of stepping into Emi Martinez's shoes. who's a bit of a disaster, and Cole Palmer completely losing his head. Just a bad afternoon? Tottenham frustrating them or any signs of a bit of a worry for Chelsea? It feels like they make two steps forward, two steps back. Everyone starts saying they could be title contenders.

41:36Then they have a result like this. Where are we at? Yeah, like everyone is desperate to put Chelsea in the title contenders group. I don't think they are. I don't think they will be. I think there are still holes in their team midfield, central midfield whoever's playing alongside Caicedo there's no guarantee about who that is and whether they're good enough and goalkeeper we've talked about the goalkeeper for a long time and even if it's Emi Martinez when he's back from fitness I'd still say a goalkeeper so there are holes in their team the Palmer thing who knows he's had a bit of a moment of madness he lost his head a bit because Fernandes scooped the ball back quite carnally and denied him a chance of breaking through.

42:20And then the second one was a bit late. You don't want to see more of this because the whole conversation last season was about them being young and having no discipline. So I think Alonso will be keen to nip that in the bud. Yeah, definitely. But a big win for Spurs, as well as mentioning that Araujo interview. Also a shout out for his Phil Jones moment. Wonderful to see a man who's really loving life at Liverpool as well. a special shout out from me to the Brighton and Liverpool kit combinations. Just all blue against all red. Just absolutely wonderful to see in this day and age of away kits at home and third kits and things.

42:56Just two home kits. Pure and simple. Absolutely lovely. Lovely to see. I do love kits and it's the simple things in life sometimes. A quick mention for another side with a big victory. Fulham beating Coventry a 1-0 win thanks to a goal from Oscar Bob. If you haven't seen it, do search on social media for the Fulham goal as viewed from the Fulham away end because there's a wonderful moment of the Fulham fans videoing Oscar Bob in the area and a Fulham fan can be heard, why isn't he going to the byline? What's he doing? Seconds before, Oscar Bob drops the shoulder brilliantly and bangs the ball into the back of there.

43:35A wonderful sign that all of us fans sometimes... And the fan did what? Eh? What did the fan then do? I think the fan said, fair play. That's why he's a footballer. A little round of applause, but a big win for Alvaro Arbaloa. Gregor, it's time. It's time. Are you ready for this? You've been waiting for it. I'm just keen to know whether it's going to start with Tom, you were right or not. That's what I want to see. No, it's not. No, for God's sake. Because we are going to talk about Aston Villa beating Manchester City at Villa Park on Saturday. Gregor, you were there. Want to get on board the Villa hype train?

44:12Yeah. Yeah, I think so. So, I mean, the thing that struck me was how remarkable it is that a team with, I think, five new signs in the starting XI, that had lost six of the starting XI from the Europa League final, already looks like Unai Emery has had his grip on them for, like, I don't know, a year. We're talking about elite-level coaches, and you just see it every time you watch Aston Villa play. you see Unai Emery's fingerprints on the team and you still see them playing this incisive football through the centre of the pitch that four years into his tenure no one can get to grips with. It's extraordinary.

44:54And so many of the signings, a big part of this rebuild is obviously going to rest on how quickly the signings acclimatise. And that's not just in Emery's system, that's as young men in young football. There's guys who, like Alisson, I think he's 20, and Zambi's 21 and Bai's 18 like some young guys Nicholas Jackson obviously came with a little bit of suspicion about the transfer fee at 65 million he scored 7 goals in 11 games he looks like a perfect replacement for Ollie Watkins because of the way he can hear into that sort of inside left channel and get onto the passes that someone like McGinn or Manzabi who's at the top of the box midfield can play through Suzuki at the back is like I did another string to the bow because I honestly think we could one day speak about him in the same breath as Emerson at City with a range of passing with his feet yeah sorry Edison and it's just extraordinary how quickly it's all come together but it's not just those new signings is it it's also the players like Victor Lindelof at the back a player signed from obscurity and ridicule at Manchester United who now looks like a very good level 7, 8 out of 10 Premier League central defender Ross Barkley who I joked about last week but who is having an impact this season most football fans will be forgiven of thinking if Ross Barkley had stopped playing Premier League football but he's in there we always joke about how much I bang on about John McGinn too but genuinely you have to add John McGinn into that too he's evergreen he's still a guy who's popping up and he just knows how to take Emery's vision and put it on the pitch and you sometimes see him directing other people he finds there was one move in the first half where Suzuki had it and they're taking real chances at City pressing them high and he found Bubakar Kamara who again took a chance to turn like on the edge of his own box and fire it into him again in this little inner pocket space and he turned and played in Nicholas Jackson so it's like three passes and probably three seconds and Jackson's here and through and it needed a foul from Guy to pull him back that is Aston Villa that is like elite level coaching as players who have improved under a manager who has an incredible track record of players improving.

47:14So suddenly, like from this kind of... Even Emery writing in the Matchday programme was saying this season could go one way or another. I'm proud of the players so far, but it could go one way or another. Right now, it looks like it's going to go in a good direction for them and maybe the best is yet to come. Yeah. James, just thinking about your point you made about Pierre Sarge, which was a very good one about the hand he had been dealt with, all the players change. You could easily level that at Aston Villa and Unai Emery with all the changes that's gone on. It is just a sign of an absolutely top-level coach who is in, when we think about some of the points we made about Manchester United, complete control of what's happening at a football club, isn't it, that is able to implement this on the pitch so well.

47:54Yeah, I mean, I have nothing to add really beyond admiration for Unai Emery as to lose six of the starters in the Europa League final. 300 million quid worth. I mean, look, I think they've made good signings as well. Like, I think Manzambi is brilliant. I think Nicholas Jackson is really good. But, yeah, I mean, you can't really do anything but take your hat off to Unai Emery. He is an exceptional, exceptional manager. Cash is another one that, you know, he shackled Jeremy Docky. He's another one who's like a stalwart, but who keeps rising to the demands, the levels and the demands that Unai Emery puts on people.

48:35but then just to your point about everything around them you know like Monchi was the guy who was the transfer guru above him he left Roberto Alabi comes in he's someone that Emery knows really well as well he helped choose him so like there's a synergy from top to bottom and that's because Aston Villa when they hired him felt we can put the club in this guy's hands that's never going to happen at Manchester United so if you're a Manchester United fan listening to this getting excited and thinking oh if we get Emery it wouldn't work yeah interesting I wanted to ask you quickly about Mark Grahi another mistake in this game someone that I've seen maybe a couple of times in this game and also for England as well looking like he's having a bit of a kind of World Cup hangover a hugely talented player was brilliant after he made that January move to City was a big part of their kind of rise up the table to push Arsenal all the way last season but what do you think about is this just a blip does he look distracted is he tired what would you say I don't know the reasons but he definitely looks like he's off it I mean he was culpable against Sipswich last week they won that game.

49:36You're right, the Spain game, he had a howler. There's been a few. There's been a few actually other moments in games that he's going to got away with. And this one wasn't the best pass in the world by Ruben Dias, but it's one that a player, a Man City defender should control. And he kind of, I don't know, kind of bubbled off his knee and gave, I think it was McGinn the chance to, he was pressing to play in Jackson and Jackson finished clinically. So he's having a tough time. He was brought he's done this before it's like a technical decision but he's having a tough time there's no question Gary I wanted to talk to you about Arsenal you were there not only for the 2-0 win against Everton but you were also in Munich for the entertaining draw with Bayern after that game we had a few Arsenal fans get in touch saying that I'd breezed too quickly over what was a very good performance so we are going to come back to it now but firstly on Everton that game set pieces again ole ole it was a hard watch was it?

50:33it was a hard watch. I think compared to Bayern, you know, it's back to a team physical, low block, going to make it difficult. What Arteta did, well, obviously they scored through a set piece, first one in 13 games, extraordinarily strappy. They had you had 10 corners in the first half, which is astonishing. And they weren't playing for corners. Sometimes last season they were actually playing for corners. But they weren't playing for them, they just sort of came naturally. And they all looked dangerous. They were A, the deliveries, but also in the rain and the wind, it was so difficult when the balls were going.

51:03And even Raya were struggling on Saturday. But what Arteta did on Saturday is he had his midfield rotating a lot and he had Skelly rotating a lot. So Skelly would sometimes pop into midfield. When Mourinho was playing in front of the puck, he would sometimes go a lot more forward than you'd expect him as a defensive midfield player. And the idea was effectively to pull Everton out of position so they didn't know where any of the players were going to be at any point. And Arteta said after the game that he wanted players to rotate to effectively not allow Everton to get to 50, 60 minutes, nil-nil.

51:34And they've got the early goal, which made the difference. And it was a hard watch, but then a year ago, there were some hard watches in Orton as well. Well, the opponents make it a hard watch, don't they? Absolutely, yeah. For the way they have to defend against Arsenal. In total contrast to the Bayern game, which Bayern are going and attack. And it was like, everyone who watched the Arsenal Bayern game was a wonderful game to watch because it was like ping pong. Yeah. and you think actually Arsenal are capable of doing both those things which actually is a good sign right that they can go toe to toe with Bayern and then find ways to win which they have done I think they were a little bit loose in Bayern the one thing is when the game opened up they were a little bit loose in Bayern and Bayern created quite a few chances on the counter against Everton probably they just had one chance which is Dewsbury Hall's header wide so I think you know I think they can do both but I think there are parts of their game game they kind of need to just shore up on.

52:27On the corners and set pieces have they been consciously trying to focus on other areas of the game there you talk about player movement we talked so much at the start of the season we all watched that charity shield game everyone was raving about this Arsenal 2.0 Gregor last week you said after Forrest this is still going to be Mikel Arteta's way. I think he wanted more midfield fluidity which he's got but they still struggle when teams sit back and say try and break us down but they don't have that type of player they don't have a type of Dennis Bergkamp they don't have a left winger who can maybe just jink through they don't have those type of players so they're asking people to kind of break through low box which they have that's not natural and he's built a team of physical players for the Premier League and they haven't got those intricate type of players they haven't got a Bernardo Silva that's who would kind of play little one twos and suddenly get away that's you know he tried to sign those two players in the summer and he didn't do it Martin Odegaard the big kind of renaissance of Martin Odegaard that myself and Alison Rudd were excited about after the World Cup he's played very well that has continued has it?

53:32continued playing really well dominating games driving for midfield popping up in different positions and his continuation of his form from Norway in the summer the one player I think going on to Gregor from Villa who's really performed so well is Conta he's kind of settled in remarkably quickly. One of the best signings of the summer, isn't it? I mean, absolutely. You know, I think at the time... £50 million? Yeah, something like that. Yeah, and I think Arsenal were like, we're not sure we want to pay 60 when Villa wanted 60 and kind of got to there. But he's so calm on the ball and he's slotted in for a guy to be alongside Gabriel and to effectively fill the shoes of Saliba.

54:09He's done so well and, you know, it'd be interesting to think what happens when Saliba's back or he'll take a bit of time, what they do in time. Now, being Arsenal will probably get injuries and it kind of won't really, you know. But it's an interesting question what happens in time. You'd have to keep him in position, don't you, Gregor? Given the form. Konzo could go to right back. Yeah. I could definitely see that. Konzo right back, Calafiore left back. That's going to be the most like, that's the best back four. You've effectively got the two main title contenders playing four centre backs in the back four.

54:39You had City at the weekend playing Kusunov and Guardiola. I mean, I know Guardiola has now sort of become a kind of left back, sort of hybrid type player. I struggle to categorise Ricardo Calafiore as the centre-half anymore. It is. Because the guy plays like, did you see where he was when Gabriel scored a goal? He's like, he's like in sort of inside right number 10 spot like in the box. He's just, he goes anywhere. Yeah. Calafiore is one of my favourite players in the Premier League because he's just like... He has the build of a centre-half, let's be honest. Like I often thought if you watch him defensively, he might struggle against really like nippy small wingers and stuff.

55:14But, you know, I don't know, he doesn't. And then he rules. He's very unique as a player. He does struggle sometimes. People get by him and he's caught out of position. Either he's too far up the field or there was a goal against Man City a couple of years where someone turned him. I think that he, defensively, at left back, he's not as good as him. It's a different challenge. It's a different challenge. If you want to kind of grind out a result, he'd probably play him. But if you want someone who's a little bit different and like James says, when you say he pops up and he could pick up on the right wing and you think, you know, how the hell has he got there?

55:49James, why do you love him so much? He's just so, he's just such an interesting player to watch. I just like, I don't, I love, I think he has incredible instincts. I mean, maybe someone will tell me actually, you know, it's all like cooked up in with Mikel Arteta and he tells him to do all these, but I just think, no, I just think he has amazing instincts. He seems to play like quite spontaneously. he's obviously he's very clever he contributes an awful lot in the in the final third like in a very like real way he's like amazing the number of like you know important goals and assists that he you know has come up with I just think he's a really really interesting and as Gary said sort of somewhat unique player there's moments where like even if a centre-half gets the ball he's not just stepped in he's like stepped into the number 10 as an inside position so it's like you can either fire it into him in there or if they go wide then he's making that underlaping run in between the centre half and the opposition centre half and full back and like City do that as well particularly when Gavardio is playing Gavardio in fact he had a good chance at the weekend Gavardio often makes that run in between if the ball's played out to City's winger he makes the run in between the full back and centre half and he gets it into his path and he'll get a shot off he scored goals like that and he had one at the weekend where Suzuki had to stand tall and push it over the bar.

57:14So it's like, it's an interesting sort of tactical development. It's not like, you know, football is used to always just well, well, and overlaps. It's that underlaping one as well. I guess what I'm getting at is it's like, I think we all feel it's like, it's a quite regimented game at the moment. It sort of seems to be, you know, that seems to be more the direction that things are going in. And I think like, he plays with a genuine sense of adventure, which I really, I really enjoy. The long hair helps, doesn't it? Yeah, it helps. Kind of buccaneering down the hair flowing. He's a good looking lad.

57:45But being Arteta, there's still a little bit of structure behind it. He would not allow him just to do anything. Ricardo, come here. Yeah, that's just not Mikel Arteta. There has to be some sort of structure to the chaos. But it is chaos because, you know, Mikel likes, he's used the word chaos. Really, likes to disrupt things. Just very quickly, Gary, what did we all make of Mikel Arteta's comments about, you know, managers, technical areas and things? It was, for me, slightly unfortunate from a manager who, just read the room, Mikel. Don't make people not like you any more than maybe they already do.

58:19Talking about keeping tabs on people. I'm pretty sure Daniel Farker got a yellow card at Arsenal a few weeks back. Like, come on, Mikel, for goodness sake. I thought he's been a bit flippant and sarcastic. You think it was a bit more jokey than people took it? Some of my peers at the other newspapers think it was kind of very typical Arteta to kind of be slightly passive-aggressive with that type of comment. I thought we'd been a bit sarcastic and flippant. Come on, Nick. You've won the title now, son. You don't need to do this. You're a big man. You're the big team. You're taking on Bayern Munich, going toe-to-toe.

58:50You don't need to be talking about watching videos back of other managers leaving technical boxes, for goodness sake. What a waste of time. Deary me, indeed. We're talking on this show about managers we feel sorry for. I have sympathy for David Moyes. I was chatting to Tony Cascarino about Everton yesterday, and you look at their squad and think, how on earth is he doing it this season? And that is a squad that is threadbare. Only one striker in Tiano Barry. Gary, struggles? I thought, yeah, okay at the back, maybe okay, but up front, it's just there's nothing there. And the moment point, he had nothing on the bench, unfortunately.

59:21So they couldn't even make... Just got that one striker. Yeah, so there was no possibilities to change it at all. And actually, I thought Pickford came out and was very critical of the referee. And in fact, that was... Yeah, I thought the referee had quite a poor game yesterday. Yeah, well, we'll see what Everton can do. maybe in the January transfer window, but a long way to go until then. We've got the Ballon d 'Or tonight as well. Quick winner from all of you. Go on. Snap, snap, snap vote, James. Kane. Kane. You. Me? You go first. You want me to win the Ballon d 'Or? Michael Carrick. Michael Carrick.

59:54Michael Carrick. No, I think Lamine Jamal will win. I want Harry Kane to win, but I think Lamine will win. I fear that. It should be Kane. It should be Kane. So it should be Kane. Everyone's got to remember for that 11-month period, I think it's from like there's a date in August to a date in July it's Kane Gary I think it'll be your mum but I think it should be Kane not only for his goals but for the fact that he carries himself so well as a person as a player as a leader as a human being and there's never anything bad about Harry Kane yeah last week in Bayern he came out and he did the media he did three sets of media speaking to three German media English media another English media and he didn't quibble at all he just did his duties and we've all been there in a mix zone where you stand there and players walk by but Harry Kane and he did it at Spurs years ago when I'd cover him he walks through and he's prepared to just I know give him the Ballon d 'Or that is Gregor's barometer for the Ballon d 'Or that shows his respect that he's got for people that he appreciates he has to kind of say what he needs to say he always fronted up the defeats and he always fronts up with England they'll be saying in future years the 2026 Ballon d 'Or Jamal lost it in the mix zone there's an idea a classy player and a classy bloke Harry Kane we'll see Johnny Northcroft reporting for the Times from the Ballon d 'Or ceremony you can get the latest on the Times website later this evening thank you very much to Gregor Robertson Gary Jacob and James Gearbrand for joining me on today's show thank you too for listening we'll be back with an EFL Extra show tomorrow and the regular show on Thursday we'll see you then

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