United's Carrick bounce exposes Arsenal’s nerve

0:06Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. It's not happening again, is it, Arsenal fans? The gap at the top is down to four points after Mikel Arteta's side lose 3-2 at home to Manchester United. Should the leaders be worried and can United fans start dreaming of Champions League football after a second big win under Michael Carrick? On today's show, we'll also discuss the chasing pack, a City, Villa and Chelsea all win, but Liverpool's unbeaten run comes to an end. We'll look at the relegation scrap and hear about two English strikers who are thriving, one in the Bundesliga and one in League Two.

0:40I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the football reporter and tactical analyst Hamza Khalid Lunat and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here. As usual, team loads and loads to get stuck into and I want to make time to talk about those excellent features that I mentioned at the end. So let's dive straight into the Emirates. Arsenal 2, Manchester United 3. Gregor, you were there and you started your match report with two questions, which is a massive mistake because you know what I'm going to do now.

1:09Gregor Robertson writes on the Times website now are Manchester United back then question mark are Arsenal feeling the heat again question mark Gregor Robertson answer your own question Bill part of that is because I went on to say we've been here before both clubs have been here before part of that is because he then spent a thousand words dancing around the subject and not answering either question listeners that's the job so are Manchester United back I feel like this is a I'm getting deja vu yes like Whether it's sustainable or not, again, there are bigger questions about whether Michael Carrick would be the man long term.

1:46But they really have been transformed in the last week. Remarkably so. And there were so many open goals. The first was obviously getting rid of Ruben Amram's system, his idea, his big idea. The second was playing players in their best positions, like Bruno is number 10, giving Kobe Mino a place back in the team. but then there have been a few things like playing Emblemo through the middle and playing Dorgun in a more advanced position that have been master strokes he also had the benefit of players coming back from AFCON Harry Maguire coming back from fitness Martinez getting back to fitness so there's been something else for a fortune as well but I said to you on the way up here on the left I would not be surprised and people might laugh at me now if Manu finished second there's no one laughing in here no I'm not laughing I'm not laughing I'm not laughing Because you know what it's like?

2:37You know what it's like? Klaxon for analogy. Yeah. It's like you go and visit your great aunt. Yeah, obviously. I knew it was going to be like that. Or equivalent. And she's got 11 cats, but she keeps them indoors. She keeps them indoors and she claims they're happier being indoors. Yeah. And they're all pouring at the window. The house stinks to high heaven because of the litter trays overrunning. And then you go, you go, and you open, you open the door. And they go out and they suddenly become normal felines, doing what normal felines do, burying their own poop in the soil, playing with each other, climbing trees and being happy.

3:16And that is exactly what Michael Carrick has done. If you could see Tom's face, listeners. Well, you can go to YouTube to check out my Facebook to do that analogy. Even by your standards, Alison, that was a cacker. That's definitely left field. But it's true. It is true. There's a lot of truth in that. Thank you, Gregor. What, in the cats thing? in the analogy in the feeling of like liberation freedom absolutely there's a simplicity to it and it's not all about it wasn't a complicated analogy Tom come on it was obvious a bit tired there is there's just a simplicity to it everyone is playing in the position and the role that they feel most comfortable and like that's just giving people giving them a lot of freedom like they feel like they know that they've got to defend as a team and they've got to attack as a team you have to say in the first half an hour they were completely suffocated and smothered by Arsenal they couldn't really keep any concerted possession they didn't look panicky in those moments and they did try to but Arsenal were really good but at the same time Arsenal were really good in terms of winning the ball back high quite impressive but when they did it they really couldn't find any openings the only way they looked like they were going to score was via a set play and you have to give Manchester United credit for that and I would argue even after they went and lead two and ahead Arsenal just huffed and puffed he kept throwing crosses into the box I thought Lamins was impressive clearly he wasn't for the goal that was like a bit of a mistake he got caught but again it was a set piece a really scruffy goal Arsenal scored two really scruffy goals Manchester United scored two absolute worldies yeah absolute worldies and Abumo's composure was also notable yeah although it was a gift it was a gift but how many times have you seen those gifts squandered because the players yeah just very quickly on Mainu back in midfield and also Lissandro Martinez in defence as well he looks like whenever he plays and plays well whatever the system in previous managers as well he seems to be quite important to Manchester United and their success to just come back to the point about finishing second though does that is that because of this kind of the way the season's panning out as much as they're looking really good they've got 15 matches left as Carrick said 15 kind of straight shootouts to get the Champions League whilst the others around them competing for the Champions League got lots of other competitions yes that's a big part they're 8 points behind those two teams Manchester City and Villa I don't trust Manchester City in the way I used to and I think Aston Villa it would be extraordinary what they're doing is extraordinary largely because they really don't have the same strength and depth as some of the teams around them and like you know they've got Europa League action FA Cup game against Newcastle they've I just don't see it being sustainable and Manchester United as you say have got 15 games and like there's a wave of momentum behind them now and it could all come crashing down but the feeling I have is that none of the top three are looking really that impressive like Villa were great at the weekend we have to say but they had a stumble before that Arsenal failed to capitalise Manchester City had a stumble Arsenal failed to capitalise now Arsenal look like they're really feeling the heat this is like the third or fourth season in a row that they've had a slump in the December January time and I still think they'll win the league by some distance the best team in the country and it's actually really quite peculiar that they're feeling this anxiety this level of anxiety but I can't see who's going to catch them I don't think Man United are going to catch them but I think they could get second I'll come on to Arsenal in a second because you just brought up some points that I wanted to raise but Hamza on Gregor's points about United looking so much better and United fans understandably quite pleased and excited in this change in form Barry who's a United fan has been in touch saying see Tom what all this nonsense about players needing time to adjust to different formations and not having the right players to fit in.

7:02I'm not getting carried away, but I'm just looking forward to the next game now because everything's positive. Again, it's not just Carrick though. He's got a great coaching team behind him who seem to have created a confidence and belief in the players. To that point, both from Barry and also Gregor's points, what have you made of the United under Carrick as much as it's very early days in two games? To Barry's point, absolutely. I completely get that. Looking forward to a match every week means a lot more than, oh my god I'm going to sit down and watch my team and I know they're going to struggle.

7:32That just changes the whole dynamic of your weekend. It's a big thing and it really is great to be able to feel that. I think Gregor was very smart in asking those two questions at the start because essentially we don't know and we shouldn't be unafraid of saying we don't know how this will pan out for either Arsenal or United. They've looked really good in the match against City and they looked good yesterday against Arsenal. One of the problems that they've encountered this season a bit is what they do when teams challenge them to be a bit more proactive with the ball. Against City and Arsenal, that's not really the question.

8:04So we'll see how that plays out. We also saw some signs of gentle improvement in the attacking side and Amarim. That's been built upon now. Just very quickly on that, I was thinking of you whenever Manchester United or any big team take shots when you've said in this podcast before, shoot, guys, take a shot. Both Cunha and Dorgou having shots from distance. Dog is obviously an absolute screamer but Cunha's he felt he kind of knew exactly what he was doing bending it around Gabriel and making me look a bit stupid from a few weeks ago when I said he was in bad form but that's also a positive isn't it that getting attacking players on the pitch in positions and them taking chances Yeah and that's sort of a consequence of how they were playing in this match as well so the Cunha chance comes after Arsenal have the ball and they break forward there's a second ball situation then they're onto it really quickly I think they work it from left to right It was Meno and Fernandes Again Those players being In the areas of the pitch That they feel most comfortable And having that bit of Composure To take that extra beat And play the little Risky pass The little 1-2s That opened up that space There was a cluster Of Arsenal players And they just worked Brandi's two can Extra touch and turned away And played a little 1-2 with Maino And Maino played it Into Into Cunha And like that Those little moments Of quality as well I can't really Remember seeing Manchester United Doing that much for months and months and months and no they are and the flip side you look at Arsenal what did they do wrong and I remember watching it live and I thought is Gabrielle out a bit slow and the thing is that's unfair because I think Rice slips 10 metres on the other side and then the ball comes across quickly Gabrielle just tries to get out maybe he could win a little bit faster but you just have to hold your hands up in that situation and go Kuni has taken it really really well so yeah to Barry absolutely enjoy it as in looking forward to your matches is a big thing it's really good that you feel that way I don't know, but I think Greg has made a good point as well about where they may finish and it really is up in the air because last season, the point at which Liverpool had wrapped up the league I think they dropped points in nine matches I saw Andrew Beasley, a good stats man say this, and Arsenal have already dropped points on eight occasions this season if we thought last season's points total was low, it's going to be lower this season which opens up all sorts of possibilities for who can then get in between I think it's a brave shout but actually at face value it's a brave one but I think most United fans would be delighted at the top four and you're saying there's a chance they might finish second but I don't disagree with you if you can pick up you can have a run they're now six unbeaten which is the first time they've done that since like 2023 I think if you can have a run you've got a good chance if anything Solskjaer won 10 of his first 11 games or something stupid like that it's not beyond the realms it's not it is football is so much I say this all the time, football is so much about psychology.

10:52It's the most important thing in all sport and it's completely transformed in the space of 10 days. Yeah, absolutely. Positive times ahead for Manchester United. But let's come to that second question that Gregor Robertson posed in his match report. Arsenal feeling the heat again. Alison, I wanted to ask you about the fans' reaction after this game. Alex, who's an Arsenal fan who was at the game, has been in touch saying, Tom, I can't believe that Arsenal fans were booing the team top of the table. It was embarrassing. this was always going to be a tricky game despite how bad United have been in recent years they've been a bogey team add on top of that Carrick's recent bounce was this defeat self-inflicted largely did we look out of ideas yes however the stadium was edgy the chants were sporadic a large number of boos at full time shows a complete lack of clarity and perspective there are still four points clear at the top top of the Champions League group phase still in two other cups how Arsenal will respond will dictate if we become champions but they need the fans more than ever to get over the line It is remarkable, isn't it?

11:48Well, I've been saying it. I've been saying it for I don't know how many years, that the atmosphere there is very peculiar. It's as though, I don't know, I can't believe there's this collective lack of intelligence about it. If you're in the mix for the cup or the league, you've got a fixture, every fixture poses difficulties. And what's the point of turning up? Is the point of turning up to watch that for it to be processional and for you to sit back and enjoy the team that you love and you think are well constructed and well managed to entertain you? That's part of it. But a large element of turning up is to be part of the experience.

12:33And that's what makes football different to going to the theatre. Unless it's a panto. If you go to the theatre, you're not allowed to shout out to Oedipus. Oi! You've got to sit back and let the actors take the stage. In football, you're part of the show. You make the atmosphere. We've seen it in... We'll probably come on to the other clubs where the atmosphere has an impact. But I've been doing this job for 32 years, and I have sat in stadiums and seen wonderful things happen, and the fans are part of that wonderful thing. So your club might go behind, and the way the fans react to that, it can either make the players feel, oh we're going to lose this or it makes them think well that's just a tiny setback we've got this we've got this guys and they keep going and they're lifted and it's oh it's like it's almost like you can see it like there's a sort of green mist going around the stadium it's the doubt and it's settling the pores of it are settling on the players and it permeates into their skin and their soul that they think why are they doubting us what's wrong what's gone wrong you Gregor you were nodding along and shaking your head in combination of the things Alex Alison's spoken about this a lot this was the one time where I really actually you know Alison popped into my head I was saying she's right she's actually right it was pretty remarkable there weren't a volley of boos at the end but there were enough to be audible and that in itself isn't actually the main issue it's the atmosphere during the game it's I don't know there's like even when they equalised there was like a frenzy about and Arteta was you saw him like getting the crowd saying come on we're going for the winner and they just completely lost their heads in terms of you still need to be able to shut up a little bit and have some degree of caution and actually that is probably at the root cause of the entire issue, Arteta's relationship between caution and risk and I think even in that first half an hour, there was no real creativity, they were relying on a moment of magic from Saka and they got one actually when he kind of smuggled that little dinked past between Casemiro and Dorgu I think it was to set up what was a scruffy goal but that was a moment of inspiration but without that kind of moment of inspiration we're back at that situation where you're looking at Arsenal and not really knowing where the goals are coming from if it's not a set play you say that about the goals I saw the stat of Bukayo Saka no goals in his last 13 games in all competitions Jokeres no goals in the last 11 Premier League games not including penalties Martinelli none in the last 13 Premier League games Madueke none in the last 25 five, Trossard's got one in the last 11 Premier League games.

15:10And the top goal scorers are Joachrez and Trossard with five. Hold on, Aaron Goulds. Yeah, Aaron Goulds. Bill Eggers statting his piece today saying that there's no team that's ever won the league without having a player in double figures and I think going back to Sunderland in the early 1900s clearly Arsenal have got another striker in the form of a set of pieces in Nikolaus Jova but we've been here before haven't we there's another part of this sort of whole deja vu they're just like again suddenly getting slightly clunky there was that period earlier in the season where Ezi really stepped into the team and he was when Odegaard was out and it was like and we're having the whole conversation was Arsenal used to be an existential crisis when Odegaard was injured or when Saka was injured but now they've got all these players who can step in and you know everyone's back fit now really and there still seems to be a creative deficit and that points to structures and coaching and the team it's not individuals so I think that's where combined with the fact that they've not won the league in 22 years but it's Arsenal and Arteta's approach particularly in big games against fellow challengers big six and whatnot that I think there's a slight unease about I think Greg is right I think a lot of frustration comes from an idea of what Arsenal could be if they played up to their potential I do wonder sometimes when watching them I mean this happened against Liverpool and then yesterday the periods where Arsenal had the ball and Saka was on the wing and Timber was inside him.

16:38Now that's a normal sort of structure. You create your 3-2-5, you try and rotate it in the box. But you do wonder, what's the point of having the most dangerous guy farthest away from goal while the fullback is in the box? And against Liverpool, I remember seeing Cody Gakpo tracking him. I was like, oh, that's a bit weird that Gakpo's so deep. But it was still Saka on the wing. So you're thinking, well, there's no real threat there to Liverpool in that situation. Then yesterday, again, when Saka went to the left wing and Madweker was on the right, you saw Timber on the inside and you thought, we need a goal here.

17:08And obviously Manchester United are making it very difficult and the space is on the outside. And I think Arteta looks at that and goes, OK, they're not giving us any space to play in infield, so we'll use that space up wide and we'll cross. If we don't get goals from that, we'll try and get cutbacks. If we don't get those, we'll get corners. Great. But you could try and attack the middle. It's very difficult, right? It's much easier to do the other thing and it makes logical sense to try and exploit that as best as possible. But you could also try and attack the middle. you could try and put Saka inside and if you've got Saka inside then maybe he can dribble past someone and then he can get in the box and then stuff might happen if it's Timber there he's very good he's really good but he's not as good as Saka otherwise he would be the left wing or right wing or right and crossing when Havertz isn't a team almost feels like a waste of time they threw cross after crossing at the box in the second half and if it's not a set piece when you bring your centre-halves up there's no one to worry Giochere's had that chance it was a good delivery I can't remember if we put it in on the left I think maybe it's Hinkha I'm not sure anyway and he was challenging Martinez and you looked at it and you thought and he was claiming for a corner he shouldered it it's brutal I remember doing the piece about Giocarez a preview when he arrived he's awful in the air his goal scoring record if you look back at Sporting I hadn't even Coventry he hardly scored any goals with his head and he's the target man number nine they signed and even like the goal that came the first goal it was like Dorgu it was a mistake by Dorgu really that allowed Saka the opportunity so they keep throwing cross into the box and there's no one to attack it.

18:35I remember the Wolves match. I think the 29 crosses when he was on the field. I don't think he attacked one. Gabriel Jesus came on for the last five minutes and he attacked one immediately and they got a goal. It was an own goal. You saw him make that move and then the Wolves defender, I can't remember who it was, went to play it and because of that, they scored his movement on the attacking crosses. Do we see Havertz coming straight back in then? They've got to manage him because he's not on the bench now. Jaycee's obviously had a really good, and we should remember Arsenal had a really good win at Inter Milan in midweek Jesus came in scored two goals looked lively looked like the Jesus of old this was his first he was given a start his first Premier League start in a year he was poor there were some really like loose touches loose passes that didn't work but as I say Gioca is up against Martinez like I like Martinez and I wrote a piece when he signed saying it doesn't matter about his height but he should do better when that cross comes in and he's above him and he can't even get his head on it.

19:36The other factor is fatigue as well. You mentioned that Arsenal are in four competitions. There is a cumulative effect of this. We've seen it with other teams that try to compete on three or four fronts. Actually, when City won the treble, they actually managed it quite well. You didn't see the effects of it that much. But even though they've got really big squads, when you have injuries and players are out, other players are then pushed into red zone. They're overworked. They're a bit tired. You have players like Havertz who need careful management. Jesus also needs careful management. And you've got lots of games and then the Champions League and then the League Cup semifinal, second leg.

20:08There's a lot of football and it puts a lot of strain on the players. And it's very hard to deal with that. And over the season, it accumulates and then you end up with performances potentially in the final sort of 10 matches where everyone's just completely cooked. I do. But to that point, I do feel that Marteta's rotated really well. Sometimes I'll see halfway through a game that I'm not at, you're dipping in and out of games, when you don't really notice, oh, you think Odegaard's not there, but they're playing as elegantly. He's able to, you know, Saka's having a rest. I think rotation-wise, he is doing it well enough to have success, maybe not outright success, but go a long way in all those competitions.

20:53It's an amazingly well-constructed big squad. all of that yeah Reis Odegaard rested midweek they came back in like it's all so so strange really you laid it out at the start there where they are like Pep Guardiola last week was saying they're the best team in the world it's hard to argue well it's yeah it's Alex who's a listener who said look we're still four points clear we're top of the Champions League table we're in the two other cup competitions and Hamza's right that comes with its own downsides of fatigue and things but then as Alisson said they've got the best squad in the league to manage it so it then begs the question are they still going to win the title?

21:27There should be title favourites but given they have someone like Saka the weird thing is that he's not scoring right? Yeah. Get him scoring it's pretty straightforward in my opinion. Yeah. Still favourites for you? Yeah. Still will win it? Yes. Alison? Well I'm not I'm going to have to back myself and say if the fans carry on behaving like this they won't. Who does instead then? Because you've got City behind them Aston Villa behind them both four points behind them but as Greg I said don't quite trust this City team Aston Villa have been fantastic but have they got squad and experience to challenge them?

21:57Who can do it? Well, now that Mark Gay's gone to City, you kind of think their problems are solved, aren't they? No. Might be. There we go. No, says Kudlin. That's the definitive Arsenal fans. Good news for you. We still think you're title favourites, but Arsenal fans and Manchester United fans after that thrilling game. Lots of points discussed there. Do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. Let's look at Bournemouth-Liverpool, the big match on Saturday evening. Another thriller. Hamza, you were there for this one. Liverpool, you know, It's been a good unbeaten run. Good, I don't know about that.

22:29I was just going to say, was it good or is it papered over some cracks that we showed that were still here? Defensively, still real problems. It wasn't good until the second half of the Arsenal match where they were actually good. And then they were good against Marseille. But until that point, there wasn't much to like about Liverpool's performances. What Slott had tried to do was, because they were leaking so many goals and shots, he tried to make the game a bit more low event. so we'll take fewer shots but you'll take even fewer we'll make it so then it became quite difficult to watch and that for the fans was quite difficult as well because it was boring and naff and I think until yesterday they hadn't won the previous four matches and then with yesterday's match that's five goals in five games that's really rubbish especially when you've got the attacking talent so like Salah came back yeah you have this the Van Dijk era I think the ball might have caught up on the win but nonetheless you should have cleared it you have this total team brain fade that in the aftermath of that goal Gomez gets injured, goes off the pitch he tries to come back on then he realises he can't so Endo is on the bench and there's seven minutes between the goal going in the first one and the second and in that period Liverpool play with ten men Did Slott answer that?

23:39Was he asked about that? He said that he was shouting at the players he said he was screaming at the players to put it out and initially Liverpool had the ball they had the opportunity to and then for the last two minutes leading up to the goal I think Bournemouth had the ball But as in, you can make a foul, right? And there were weird decisions where two of the guys up top were pressing, even though they had 10 men. And eventually Bournemouth really nicely worked it into that space where Gravenberg was covering for Gomez slash Endo, and they scored a nice goal. But yeah, it was bonkers, that seven minutes.

24:09And until then, they'd actually played all right. They constructed a nice approach play, limited what Bournemouth had, and then they were tunneled down on the back foot. And then they just didn't have any ideas how to score. and funnily enough after complaining about set pieces all season slop that is not me and you a little bit quite a bit sometimes if you looked at me in the press box I was just sat there emotionless with both goals going in just more set pieces in fact I think 45 % of goals yes over the weekend were set pieces but you're not bothered about it I am bothered about it but as in yes Liverpool score two set pieces they get to 2-2 and you think okay this is the moment to push on and then Bournemouth you're better yeah yeah So they had the momentum and then just rubbish.

24:52And yeah, the goal at the end was a total mess because it came from a long throw and a missed clearance and then a little melee in the box. But that looked really bad from Liverpool. And what's most concerning of all, you can understand, they can see the set piece. You can't fix that immediately when that's been a problem all season. Defensive errors, that's been a problem all season. But to be able to attack, that's something Liverpool have done for the past decade really well. They could always rely on that. And even when they were playing badly earlier this season, they could still score goals yes they they just didn't look like they could they had one shot inside the the width of the goal and that was Van Dijk's header from the from the corner last season when they played Bournemouth they had eight in that spot what do you think that is then is it a lack of consistency with who he's playing lack of consistency in the system because he obviously tried a lot of different formations and styles to try and get different players in is it just the ultimate sign of a team in transition what do you think that is all of the above all of the above all of the above yeah the rotating different players in and out because they're not fully fit factors in like Ekotike had to be rested because his load was high you've also got the rotation in the match of like so Sobber's lie goes to right back that doesn't really help your structure but what I found really striking throughout the match was Liverpool had loads of ball they're going to the final third and then it's just sort of okay what can Florian or Mo or Jeremy Frimpong do they had an idea up to that point and then nothing after yeah they had an idea of how to attack but no plan and the idea was give the ball to these guys and they'll try and do something beyond that you just had loads of players static there's a match earlier this season where Gravenberg scored from a cutback and you've got something similar as well Frim Pong's out on the right he beats a man and then the team goes oh alright we can do something now and he crosses and I think Gravenberg and McAllister almost run for the same ball while Curtis Jones is around two metres behind them so they're all in the same space whereas last season you could see the rehearsed rotations and the attacking structure and it looked like a really well-engineered machine.

26:50The unit would be so effective in the final third. Now it just looks like, let's give the ball to Berts, see what he can do and we'll play off that or give the ball to Salah. This does not look like an attack that's good. And if you look at their expected goals per shot, the quality of chance that they make now is really poor. Their average over the past six matches is 0.09. The average in the league this season is 10.114, I think. So they're below average. they should not be below average given they've got Salah Seca TK all these guys right you should be able to make good quality chances taking them as a different thing but you should be able to get them in the first place we've talked about Manchester United in 4th obviously Liverpool behind them now in 6th Chelsea as well in 5th after a good win at Palace inspired by Esteval as Pete Rutzler was writing in the Times this weekend what do we think about that kind of this chasing pack then is it going to come down to massive inconsistencies in their season really who can put a run together because just behind them in 7th you've got Fulham nothing sums up better this kind of chaotic and mad season we've been sat in this studio before and I've been talking about should we be worried about Fulham, Alison definitely not as long as Harry Wilson's in the team what do we think about this kind of chasing pack then Chelsea, Liverpool and as I say even Fulham just leading that group in the middle table well you won't you won't find a Fulham fan anywhere in the world who thinks they're going to finish top fourth what are they two points two points off four they are four points off four oh four okay still not very many is it I mean what I'd say to that is this is the first season I can remember where more than one team quite a few teams are being damned for being entertaining and scoring from outside the box so people say well Villa can't possibly win the title because they rely too much on beautiful goals from outside the box and they're freaky but at what point do you accept because Hamza was saying why don't teams shoot more that's what Villa are doing they're shooting Shoot smarter.

28:45That's a key thing, right? Not shoot from anywhere, shoot smarter. But at what point? We're nearly in February and everyone's dissing. And it's the same with Fulham. A lot of their points have come from rather beautiful 90 plus something winners. And you think, well, that's not sustainable. But we're nearly in February. I mean, there's an element of logic against the heart, I know. But if you're consistently pulling it off, why does it have to stop? You can't be lucky through a season. It's not luck. I think that's reductive too. I think because if you look at Buendia's goal yesterday, the way that was worked was not luck.

29:24You get in a player who's really good at shooting from distance in a position to shoot from distance. And they do that quite often with Morgan Rodgers. Now they've got Buendia in the team, they can do it too. They have their wingers who come inside. And a lot of teams try and create triangles. Villa almost try and create a little box in the middle of the pitch and work it around you can't defend that a back four is not going to step out full backs aren't going to come in and center half step out to mark all those players even in midfield can't all close that space enough and Villa just knocked it around in a little square that gave Wendy the ball in space time to take a touch look up decide where he was going and bang it in the top corner clearly it's not going to happen every week but they do this a lot they get their players who are good at shooting from distance in positions to do it the question always is that's not lucky that's all I'm saying I was talking about luck more generally not specifically shots as in you can be lucky over a season and that's often how a team may finish in the top four or whatever right but the real question is when you take a shot from that location where like Wendia did could you if you worked the ball and let's say you took a pass or an extra pass or an extra two, three, four, five passes could you have got a better shot and that's what managers are asking their players to think about.

30:42If you shoot from here, you end this possession. Could you get it into a better position? And if you can, shouldn't we? You have to make that calculation every time, right? If you see the ball sit up and you go, actually, if I can take the shot on now, I think it's a good chance. Do it, right? But if you're shooting from an area and you know that you've got a teammate who's ready to overlap around the fullback or you've got a guy inside or you think in three passes time, I could put Watkins into the box around the penalty spot. You've got to think as a player and be smart and go, I should do that.

31:13We should do that as a team. And yeah, when you make that pass, there's then the potential for, as in when I say that pass, I mean in three passes time, you can get it to Watkins. There's a potential for the next player to mess up a pass or the player after him to mess up a pass or maybe Watkins to miscontrol it or not even get it shut off. All that sort of stuff is in consideration, right? But you've got to play those odds and that's what I think smart managers will be telling their players. If you think this is the best opportunity in the possession that you have now to shoot, take it, right?

31:40But be smart. Don't just ruin it when you've got Watkins on your inside or Rodgers around the outside or whatever. That's the real question. Some players, they are footballers because they're very, very good at shooting and they're very accurate. And that's part of football. That's part of football. They're called strikers. Or they're called Harry Wilson, by the way, who seems to be in the absolute form of his life since the start of November. Only Erling Haaland with 12 as a hand in more Premier League goals than Fulham's Harry Wilson. 11 goal involvements in 14 appearances, 7 goals and 4 assists.

32:11Almost like he's playing for a new contract, some might say. But anyway, he is in brilliant form. Just to wrap up this kind of section, looking at those teams in the middle, we've talked up the top four. As I said, Chelsea in fifth, Liverpool sixth, then Fulham in seventh, Brentford losing this weekend, they're still in eighth, Newcastle losing, Sunderland losing this weekend, they're in ninth and tenth. Everton have got a game against Leeds tonight, Brighton beaten as well. Bournemouth showing that we shouldn't have been worried about them in 13th. Anyone got any picks for fifth and sixth? For fifth and sixth.

32:40It's absolutely impossible. It really is. And I like, it's really lovely that it is impossible. Yeah, which is wonderful, isn't it? The impossible question, who will finish fifth and sixth? It looks every bit like the six teams in the top six positions now will be the six, yeah. I mean, you expect Newcastle to improve at some point. The teams that have threatened throughout the season, it was Bournemouth at one point, it was Palace briefly, it was Brighton. I don't think any of them are going to be consistent enough so yeah it'll be the big six the new big six Villa instead of Tottenham after the break we'll discuss the battle at the bottom and whether Tottenham actually should be involved in that but it was a big win for Nottingham Forest so they are the subject of a little quiz question to take us into the break Morgan Gibbs-White has assisted 28 goals in the Premier League for Nottingham Forest since his debut in August 2022 only four players have more in the English top flight name them, find out who they are after the break

33:40Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson and Hamza Khalid Lunak with me it was a team effort on the quiz Alison Rudd immediately said I don't understand the question and then helped get the answers which were Mohamed Salah, Bruno Fernandes Bukayo Saka and Kevin De Bruyne all with more assists than Morgan Gibbs-Weitz, 28 in the Premier League Have a breakdown for how many? Yeah, I do have a breakdown, Hamza Mo Salah got 44 since August 2022 Bruno Fernandes next with 35 Saka with 33 and Kevin De Bruyne with 31 There you go, top 5 quiz for you this week in the pub maybe, or just with your friends Make sure you explain it right though because Alison will be upset that you didn't explain it properly Just before we continue, it's a chance for me to remind you all to check out our new home on YouTube Times Sport has its own channel as part of the Times YouTube channel.

34:33If you search at Times Sport and YouTube, you'll find us. Here we are. Give everyone a wave. Look, there you are. Here we are on YouTube. That only works if you're on YouTube. This week, we're in a slightly less glamorous studio because our rugby podcast, The Rook, are starting their Six Nations coverage. So make sure you check them out too. Let's have a look at the battle at the bottom of the table. As I mentioned there, we start with our weekly mention of Tottenham and Thomas Frank. We should have a little kind of bell or a klaxon or maybe like a warning sign. panic panic panic 2-2 draw at Burnley thanks only to a late equaliser for them after a good win against Borussia Dortmund in the Champions League and you have to remember Tottenham are still currently in the automatic Champions League qualification places for the round of 16 but they are worryingly near the bottom of the table Gregor do we think if they'd lost this he'd be out?

35:22good god another tough question from me there definitely no he would have been not definite because they need someone to fill these shoes who Johnny Heitinger Ryan Mason sorry I'm taking the mickey oh yeah I've cracked that joke already I think every non-Totland fan has cracked the Ryan Mason joke so far this season yeah no Alec I don't think necessarily they'll get a point and we're getting close to it where it's too toxic and like we are getting quite close to it the way fans chant in some ironic and acerbic things most games but I still think they do need to have someone lined up I don't think Johnny Hiting is the one he's someone that I think Frank helped select as well the recruit and he had a pretty underwhelming spell at Ajax he's not going to be it certainly wouldn't be long term and if he's not going to be long term as I say it has to be he has to be Frank has to be undermining the team as opposed to hindering the team's like potential and future not just like they have to have someone ready to step in and improve the team and I don't see who that is yeah in really interesting Tottenham.

36:2814th on 28 points, just below them on goal difference. Crystal Palace for 28 points after a defeat against Chelsea. Good wins for Nottingham Forest and West Ham. Is the relegation scrap back on? Leeds have got Everton tonight. Paul Joyce will be reporting on that for the Times. Is the relegation battle back on? I think the significant moment in the relegation battle came at Tottenham Hotspur Stadium when Somerville scored and ran and embraced his manager, Nuno. And in that moment, I felt, it's going to click now. He's clearly built a relationship with the players. There was a distance there at the start where you felt like he was trying to work them out and also thinking, wow, they're not very good.

37:12And there wasn't, you just felt, oh, is he going to take too long to sort out this team? And by the time he has, it'll be too late. But in that moment, and they played really well upbeat football against Spurs. I know it's Dr. Tottenham and everyone does, but they did and they've continued it on. We all know the London Stadium can be an awful place, but they kept the atmosphere going. I think there is some belief. Nuno's smiling. The players look like they're enjoying it. He's talking about creating patterns and understandings and you can see it. You can see it. I mean, I don't think it's going to be straightforward, but I can see West Ham escaping the drop now and I wouldn't have said that two weeks ago.

37:58No, I don't think anyone said it two weeks ago. Everyone's kind of had them down. I'm sure Martin Samuel will probably still say they were down, Gregor, on Thursday's show. But what do you think to that idea that West Ham two wins on the spin starting to look like Nuno's cracked it and that the players are caught in? Yeah, I wouldn't say he's cracked it. I think there's been a big improvement. I think just having more, the two additional options up front in Castellanos and Pablo just allows Bowen to be a winger again and be creative and still chipping goals but they were so reliant on him and Somerville's emergence has been the main positive for them even when they were playing badly he's been playing well for a while now actually I was at the Forest game that they lost and that felt like the ceiling was falling in that day he was good he's good at actually when those moments which is important in a Nuno team where they turn over possession they attack quickly and somebody to carry the ball up the pitch he's that guy but he's also someone who's getting on the end of crosses now and being a goal threat so big positives Fernandes as well great goal and just as Tom Olnett wrote in the game today of all the problems at West Ham midfield was the biggest and has been for a long time just no legs no energy and he's brought that and a bit of sort of attacking purpose too Who do they catch though?

39:15Because Forrest ahead of them were having a bad run and then won two and drawn one in the last three Leeds as I keep saying we don't know how they'll get on against Everton tonight. Anyone worried about Palace? Well, yeah. In 3-4, Sol, Mark Gwey, Glasner. They are not. Palace, they are not the ingredients you need to avoid disaster. Everyone knows the manager's best case scenario, he stays the rest of the season, might not do that. But it's hanging over you, isn't it? It never works well when the manager says, And they've got conference league games as well. Oh, well, and that I think is the crux.

39:48Someone was asking me about this. I think that's the crux of it, is that you deliver what you think is Europa League football and it's taken away from you from the courts and partly from mistakes made by the club. Then you suddenly got Conference League football and all those Thursday night and you haven't got the squad for it. You're not given the squad for it, which therefore undermines the good work you've been doing in the league. I can see why the coaching staff, Glasner in particular, are thinking, what the heck's going on? and that can't create a good environment for the players who are left and you see Gey on the telly on the telly smiling it's just heartbreaking it's kind of the same question with Frank and Tottenham it's like when do you get to the point where he's a part of the problem not the solution or like a solution is more likely to be found elsewhere and that is our live question now with Oliver Glasner in Palace because he was asked after the game is this are the players feeding off this sort of negative energy and uncertainty and you're leaving at the end of the season and yada yada and he said no he would say no and they've Glasner and Parrish have supposedly patched things up and said we have a positive end to the season we've not seen any of it and said that on the pitch yet so you have to see that evidence sooner or they'll get dragged into it and then there's a question about whether they need to make a change yeah potentially a big couple of days in the end of the January transfer window for Crystal Palace and the rest of their season but Palace fans get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk if you're worried about how this season might pan out.

41:17It's some kind of Shakespearean tragedy, isn't it, Alison? You have to go from FA Cup to relegation contenders with all your stars leaving and your manager on the way out. Very, very difficult indeed. Now, time to hear about two brilliant pieces of journalism on the Times website over the weekend. Two strikers, both thriving, both very different stories. In a second, we'll speak to Hamza about his visit to Germany to watch this bloke called Harry Kane. But first, Alison, you visited Bromley to speak to their star striker, Michael Cheek. He used to work in call centres. He's had a massive journeyman career, but he's now 34 and he's chasing promotion to League One.

41:51Yeah, I really enjoyed this so much. I talk about being... I didn't have, maybe I did, have a preconceived idea of what a team playing in League Two for the first time in their history would. They got promoted last year and it's their second season and they're top of the division and it's a big surprise. So I think I expected something slightly amateurish or tin pot maybe, I don't know. And your first look is, oh, maybe this will be because there's a field with horses in it and chickens often escape and you can find a goat on the training pitch. Not enough goats in the Premier League, I always say that.

42:31You think, well, this is an aberration. And then you walk through the door, you go in to the offices via the club shop, which again speaks to, oh, maybe it's not, quite ready to have visitors. And then suddenly I pop to the loo, the ladies' loo. My God, it's really posh. Right? And it's got like gold bricks in it. I didn't see this comment. Probably the nicest loo I've been to in any football stadium. I can't believe you didn't intro on that. Yeah, I was going to say. What about Michael Cheek? I've got a whole interview here with the bloke. There's no mention of the gold-plated ladies' loo, probably.

43:08And then you go through the admin offices which are big and everyone's very busy and there's lots of really interesting information on the walls. They're plotting. Yeah. Okay, I'll get to Michael Cheek. Yeah. And then Michael Cheek walks in looking lovely in a sort of lavender training top. Yeah, very nice. And he's the nicest, nicest, nicest guy you'll ever meet. Really lovely. Six years, he's been making a commute from two hours. He's two hours in from wherever he lives. Yeah, Coldchester. It's a two-hour drive some days. Wow. And he's finally decided he's going to move to five minutes down the road.

43:44And he's playing the way he's playing, joint top scorer now. When he doesn't have to commute, he's probably going to run away with it, isn't he? Yeah. And it's just so heartening to speak to somebody who clearly had talent but didn't love the game very much. So Port Vale signed him as a teenager, a young teenager. But he said he just wanted to be with his mates. He didn't really fancy it. And then when he got back into football, a mate said he was going to travel to Australia. He thought, well, I won't bother with football. I'll go to Australia for a year and just hang around, get odd jobs, help build a highway.

44:17Came back, worked as a barista in a furniture. Really weirdly, you think when someone says they work as a barista, you imagine them in a Café Nero or something. But he was in the corner of a furniture shop. It wasn't even a very nice cafe. That is like if you could make up a journeyman striker's previous job, isn't it? He was a barista in a furniture shop. and then he spent a long time as a part-time footballer so he had a job working 6am to 2pm in a call centre dealing with breakdown and recovery so I said go on tell me a funny story about that he really didn't want to remember his life there it was so like oh it was awful but it was quite funny he did get a call from a guy who was walking his dog by driving his car with the lead through the window and he ended up in a ditch so he needed helping out anyway he was very very happy to finally Taggart and Redbridge offered him a full time contract that went slightly wrong he got his first don't own the injury there then he went to Ebsfleet who had some financial difficulties and then he went to Bromley and he will say well he did say to me because he when they got promoted he won player's player and the player of the season and even though Bromley finished 11th he could expect the best player to be from one of the top teams and he said I think people just like my story because I'm not very good I'm not the best player I think I just like my story which is probably true because he was a nobody and then at 33 and now at 34 he is the man to watch he's so reliable yeah it's amazing he says the thing he does well is his his anticipation and movement he knows where the ball's going to be which is obviously worth a lot yeah it's not quite Jamie Vardy is it Gregor but Stanway Rovers Haybridge Swiss Chelmford City Braintree Town Dagenham and Redbridge Ebsleet City and then Bromley where he scored over 100 goals in more than 250 games.

46:06It's a fantastic thing, the idea that he might make it to League One and, as Alison said, move house, finally commit, finally commit. At the start of next season, he'll be 35. It's a wonderful story. Yeah, I mean, just reaching the Football League for the first time in your early 30s is extraordinary in yourself. But then to get Player of the Year and to be, obviously, easily good enough for it and to score loads and loads of goals, it's great to hear a bit more about his backstory. and like those teams there are a lot of players like that who play in non-league high level in non-league and it's like it might be part time or semi-pro and like training a few times a week or whatever and you get good money like Ebb's Fleet were a really ambitious club Dagenham Redbridge have been in the league and were ambitious so there would probably be a possibility of getting but and this never happened and so for it to finally happen and to have gone this well it must be it was nice to hear that there's no kind of regrets it didn't sound like it anyway there's no regrets that this didn't happen for him earlier in his career or earlier in his life and he looks like he's really enjoying it now also crucial Alisson as well they won 2-1 against promotion rival Swindon ensuring that the good luck charm of an Alisson Rudd interview continues I was a bit worried we were going to jinx him before you went down there let's talk about another striker slightly more famous than Michael Cheek Harry Kane Hamza you went out to Germany to watch the Bayern Munich striker and I'm going to ask a question at the start of your piece as well we started the show with Greg as intro asking a question in the The start of your excellently detailed analysis about Harry Kane goes like this.

47:34How does he do it? He's been scoring goals for years, yet one question continues to baffle. How can the most dangerous man in European football always be in space? Tell us. Yeah, you guys sent me to just go and watch him, see what was interesting. And that was the sort of thing that occurred to me. I was like, this guy, you sit down and you're just trying to watch him. And he's walking around and then he gets a shot off. You're like, that's a good chance. that's not a good chance how does this always happen? and there's two constituent parts here how does he find space in the box and how does he find space in deeper areas and they're actually linked but I asked Harry and he said he gave a really detailed explanation he said early on in matches he will drop really really deep and see if the opposition defender follows him if they follow him great right that means they're man marking and that means there's loads of space for Luis Diaz or Michael Alise to then run into if they're not following great hey, I'm in space, I'm free, I can combine.

48:31So in the first match against Leipzig, you saw him just, in the first minute, literally drop over to the left-back sort of space. No one was there. And he said, okay, great. And then he started playing these combination passes. He was their spare man in midfield and started playing these amazing line-splitting passes, putting Elise and Diaz through. And they probably should have scored a few goals, but he's got loads of assists because of that. Yeah, and then when he's deep as well, he plays these passes, often switches out like gorgeous, flat ones, driven ones, all these sorts. And then what he'll do, as soon as there's attention elsewhere, he'll just set off in the blind side.

49:03And this is how you always find space, right? So there'll be a player that's marking him. They'll see him on the ball. He'll knock it out wide and they'll go, oh, ball's over there, attention there, whatever. And then Kane just goes. He moves into the box. The ball comes in, bang, goal. And there's a lovely goal that he scored in the Leipzig match where you actually see all this sort of stuff come together, all the little bits through the first 56 minutes where he asks for a specific type of pass from Luis Diaz, who gets it wrong initially in the 17th minute. And he says, actually, I'd like it lofted over the top.

49:33You note that down here. So he's actually motioning him to chip the ball. Yeah, he says, I want you to chip the ball next time. Diaz goes, sorry, boss, I'll do it. And then you get to the 57th minute and Kane has been targeting this back post zone all game, always being there. And there's loads of crosses that come in that are blocked, intercepted, cleared, but he's always there for it. So you could tell he's attacking this space. He's just waiting for that moment. and the ball eventually comes in from Alise, it's a lobbed one over the top. The defender slips, he makes a mistake. But Kane is there and he capitalises it and he scores.

50:03And if you just look at that goal, you go, oh, crossing the box, defender makes a mistake, Kane scores, pretty straightforward. But if you watched him for all the period leading up to that, you go, actually, he's been thinking about attacking precisely that space the whole time. And then there's all sorts of things that go into it, the timing and which you discussed as well, the way the team works, which Vince and company he gave amazing detail on how they're meant to create space for him and how he has one rule for them. He said, you can do all these magic tricks, right? Go deep, whatever, but there's one rule.

50:31You've got to finish in the box. And that's his rule to all his players. And I thought Vincent was actually very humble as well in the way that he spoke because he said, we did all this stuff at Burnley, but it didn't work. It's the players, right? He said, it's that same stuff at Burnley. We didn't score 70 goals in 18 matches. It's the players. So this is about how they interpret what we tell them. We give them little cues, but they make the decisions on the pitch. and with Harry he rarely ever makes a wrong one the only wrong sort of thing that he did was he hit his second penalty of the match against Union Saint-Gioire against a crossbar so he should have got a hat trick he only got two but still three goals in two matches and 83 and 82 matches for Bayern is pretty good going pretty good I was listening to you there thinking actually this is a terrible idea we've sent Hamza and he spotted Harry Kane's trick in the year of the World Cup this is a disaster but what you're actually saying is that it doesn't matter you either follow him and that won't help if you leave him that won't help either mind you there's a whole pundits who have read this Hamza because so many times do you hear people say we need Harry Kane in the box we need him we need him to occupy defenders we need him to in between the sticks like but there's method to it as he says I might have jinxed him because I get to Bournemouth and I've been on the train and there's bad signals so I arrive people are like oh I read your Harry piece you jinxed him I was like you what the loss at Augsburg I was like what he did the scores I was like what so maybe I have jinxed him maybe it's a decoy maybe he read the piece as well and was like damn it, this guy's outed me.

51:52Right, I need to bluff some people here. But the key thing is that if they wrap up the league, which they look like they were going to do until they lost out, they probably still will. Maybe he can be rested a bit and then just focus on the Champions League, which means that he'll be fresh for the World Cup. But yeah, it's like, so what he does really well is, so when the ball goes to one side and he's on the opposite side of the pitch, if you're a defender, you've got like, it's like footballing simultaneous equations, right? Because you're trying to watch the ball on one side and you're trying to keep an eye on Harry Kane, who's behind you and there's also 20 other people on the field that are interacting and moving at the same time.

52:28It's really, really complex, right? But what Harry Kane does is he adds like a quantum physics question in. And what I mean by this is when you see him, when he's observable, he's there. You think you've got an eye on him. But as soon as you lose sight of him, and this was happening when I'm watching from the stand, right? I'd watch for three minutes at a time. Nothing much is going on. Something interesting would happen 40 yards away with the ball. Your eye's drawn there. And then you go, oh, I'm watching Harry Kane. You go, where's he gone? As soon as you lose him, right, that's when he moves.

52:58He makes those movements when something exciting is happening elsewhere. And that's in combination with the timing and the movement and where the ball is and how the team plays. That's why he's so hard to track. And it's that relentlessness to always attack those spaces and then give all those little cues about exactly how he wants it, where he wants it, that make him so effective. Yeah, it was a brilliant piece, really detailed, absolutely fascinating. Make sure you search Hamza's name and Harry Kane on the Times website. You'll be able to find it and have a read. A jam-packed show, we'll have to leave it there.

53:25Alison Rudd and Hamza Khalid Luna and Gregor Robinson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back with the regular show on Thursday. We'll see you then.