VAR and Chelsea drop the ball

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times to entertaining League Cup semi-finals, but it's errors from players and officials making the headlines again. On today's show, we'll discuss victories for Manchester City and Arsenal, look at some early worrying signs for Liam Rossini at Chelsea and ask how can we improve this refereeing system? We'll also discuss this weekend's Manchester derby as Michael Carrick is confirmed as a United head coach with former England No. 2 Steve Holland as part of his coaching staff and we'll discuss our favourite rivalries across the country and loads, loads more besides.

0:37I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the former striker and Times columnist Tony Cascarino, and the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here. As usual, chaps, loads and loads to talk about. Let's get straight into it. We talk about Chelsea 2, Arsenal 3. Just going to read a little section of Pete Rutzler's report on the Times website because it gives us a good grounding, I think, and a good summary. He wrote that Arsenal were the much better team at Stamford Bridge, intends off the ball and potent on it.

1:05For Rosinha, his first outing here was never likely to be as serene as his debut in the Chelsea dugout at the Valley against Charlton. There were moments of frailty and angst caused by his team's attempts to play out from goal kicks, though there were some positives too, not least the introduction of Alejandro Garnaccio to change the game and the response to falling behind. We were discussing this before the show, chaps. I mean, Chelsea have lost, but Arsenal could have won by four or five, couldn't they, in this one? Gregor, who comes out of this game happier, do you think, before we get into some of the incidents that we saw?

1:36It's a difficult one. Arsenal have to. And, you know, you listen to Mikel Arteta afterwards and he struck a positive tone. He was saying, you've got to remember, they've got a lot of good players. They put in some subs in the second half. Esteval was really, really dangerous. There were people that had to shackle. So, like, they've gone to Stamford Bridge. They've won the game. They should be happy. But clearly, there was a period in that second half when they were 3-1 up and it looked like they had a few chances to make it 4. and you thought this could get embarrassing. And then just the balance of that shifted again.

2:10And it's obviously a narrower margin of victory to go into the second leg. So Arsenal still have to be the happier of the teams. Chelsea and Liam Rossini will probably be a mixture of relief that it didn't get embarrassing and happy that they're still in the tie. But Arsenal still have to be happier. Martin, from a Chelsea point of view, what did you make of this? Players missing, Rhys James, Cole Palmer, missing from this game, but we believe available for the weekend. Quite interesting from the dynamics of some of the things we talked about with Enzo Maresco's departure that Liam Rossini is already having this kind of topic around player selection.

2:45It struck me like a team that had been picked by the medical department because for the manager to come out and say, Rhys James can't play tonight, he can play on Saturday. Cole Palmer can't play tonight, he can play on Saturday. Malagusto can't play tonight, he can play on Saturday.

3:05I've never heard a manager speak like that. I've never heard a manager give what is basically a medical bulletin. So that sounded as if it came from somebody else, not from Liam O'Senia. And I don't want to see players running to the ground or playing while they're badly injured or whatever, But there has always been an understanding that it's the manager's call, ultimately. And, you know, to some extent, the player. The player can always say, no, I can't play. But I don't believe, I can't see that Cole Palmer doesn't want to play in that match. And I would throw this to both Gregor and Tony, who played professionally.

3:53to what extent do you play when you're 70 % fit 80 % fit or whatever if it's a big game like that it's the manager's first home game it's against a major rival and it's a League Cup semi-final I've witnessed it quite a few times in my career I'd go back to my final game for Chelsea 94 Cup final Mark Steen wasn't even 50 % fit and he played he hadn't played for 8 weeks he'd played the week before and had three quarters of the game and scored, but all the lads knew he couldn't train all week, then started the game in the final. I've played at 70%. Some would argue all the time. But, yeah, no, you do.

4:37I think there was a badge of honour as well at a certain time that if you could play, you know, it was on you. You know, you'd say, how many times, Gregor, in your early days of your career, managed to come up and say, how are you going? Yeah, I'm fine. I'm fine yeah I'm ready to go and you're not really you can get through early parts of the game tablets yeah which as Martin alluded to comes with its own problems because you don't want to run these players into the ground Rhys James and Cole Palmer have had injuries but I think Martin makes the point that this is a big game Rossin your first home game it strikes an odd tone doesn't it Greg?

5:10yeah when we spoke about this earlier if it was up to me and probably up to the manager you would say play let's play our best team in this game and then you've got Brentford at the weekend and like, Brentford in really good form, it's a Premier League, still is viewed as more important, but it's a semi-final, London Derby, first game at home, it's important for a senior as well, so, there is that, but like, there's no escaping the fact that football is changing, like, the influence of medical staff, has grown enormously, and like, sports scientists, I've got friends who work at football clubs, and, they are coaches, and they're kind of getting pretty stunned, at the extent to which how much they are allowed to train the players is influenced by people who aren't coaches.

5:55You know, they maybe want to do a bit of extra shooting at the end of a session and someone will come up and say, no, no, he's done this, that and that this week. That's it. You can't do any more. As in the medical staff reading it off a chart based on everything they've done and saying they can't do any more training. That's it. They're done. And like, you know, clearly what club you're at will determine how much that voice is listened to. But a lot of clubs now, that voice is very much listened to. So, you know, This is possibly the next extension of it. It's like, it's actually influencing, you know, it has been influencing team selection, but it's influencing even maybe how long players can play in a match.

6:30Things like that. There's a story this week, wasn't there, that Maresca, that there was a member of the medical staff stationed on the Chelsea bench in, you know, the last months or whatever weeks under Maresca, whose job it was to basically just remind him he can only play 60 minutes you look at that and think well this is really interesting because I think there's a story I've told on here before about Paul Gascoigne starting the FA Cup semi-final with Tottenham against Arsenal when all of the advice was he was only going to last about 20-25 minutes and put him on at the end and Toe Venable started him and said we think we've got 25 minutes when it falls in that and he won it in 10 but then he actually stays on and plays now it's a balance isn't it it's a balance because ultimately a lot of studies have been done now and it's not actually the volume of football that players are playing it's the intensity of it and the workload is getting ridiculous we come on and do this podcast there's never a midweek without games every day of the week it's incredible so you do want to see the players protected but it's about that balance finding that right balance and it feels like possibly at Chelsea the balance is is actually becoming an issue for the coaching staff.

7:48Yeah, see, isn't it an issue? You could also add in, that's the same sort of example with recruitment, that they will look at recruitment and loads of people are deciding on this player. And it's the same in the medical team. There's so many people involved at football clubs now, I know, in every level. So, you know, years gone by, we would have been frowned upon, wouldn't we? If someone said, ah, he's not fit today, or we can only do our favor, the manager might look at you and say, well no just get on and do it and we'll pull you off when we're going to pull you off you know that was the attitude I'm not saying that was right but we would all take ourselves a bit deeper and a bit further because you had to when I first started playing football there was one sub and a goalkeeper you know and that was it so we've got all these people available on the sidelines where literally the game is being interrupted all the time I wonder why we've got so many injuries because the injuries have gone up even though they're saying they're protecting injuries have gone up but isn't it like statistics you record more of the statistics now so you're recording more injuries so you're saying I'm a bit injured so you were talking about you and Gregor's day playing with injury those injuries that you'd have had you might have racked up oh Cascarino's out for two weeks he's got a little knock actually you'd have played through that and not missed it and then those stats don't go down I played through injuries I played with a really bad right knee for about three months I remember thinking I weren't doing myself any favours but the manager was like I could tell, I mean, you'll remember David Webb from his Chelsea game.

9:17Oh, yeah, David Webb. David Webb was tough as old boots. I mean, Webb, he was like, look, I came back from international duty. I had six stitches in my knee. And he went, I'm playing you and Mick Hartford up front away from home on Sunday. And I went, I've got stitches in my knee. He went, it's fine. If it opens up, you can have them stitched up again, can't you? I mean, you imagine that today. I played, yeah. And my stitches opened up. So I had it redone. I mean, that's a really extreme version. Yeah, that's extreme. But to come back to your point, Martin, for Liam Rossini to be already kind of talking about this in his second game, that's the key.

9:54This is my extrapolation of it. He hasn't said, I've been told I can't pick these players, but he has spoken in a way that I've never heard a manager speak before, where, you know, he's as good as read out a medical bulletin. He's as good as read out a, this is what I've been told. If Rhys James and Cole Palmer and Malagusko, to a lesser extent, then play against Brentford and both all play really well and everyone, then part of you go, well, great, but also... It's a vice. My point is, it's a vice, isn't it? This is the interesting thing. You wouldn't want to read or indeed work for a newspaper that was run completely by the legal department.

10:39As much as we love and thank the legal department for all that wonderful work. As much as we love the legal department and they've saved us many times. Thank you, ladies and gentlemen. But, but, this is not a dig at the legal department. What it means is that every editor will reserve the right to sometimes say, no, we should publish. We should publish. We accept your advice on this, but I feel we should publish. I feel we've got this story over the line and we should publish. If you then get sued and it then costs you a lot of money and the legal department can turn around and say, we told you, that doesn't reflect well on the editor.

11:19The whole point is a newspaper is about that. It's a relationship and it's to do with advice. It is this, look, the legal advice is you haven't quite got this. You need to take this line out. You can't say that. You know, and you just look at it. Not that you want Liam a senior to start running people in the ground and causing worse problems or whatever, but I just looked at that last night and thinking, your job's going to be very, very hard, mate, if all you've got to keep doing is fronting up for decisions that are made by everybody else, whether that's the recruitment department, whether that's the medical department.

11:58It comes back to our discussion over the last couple of weeks about control being taken away from the manager who's supposed to have the ultimate final say on things, as you said with signings. to front it up and then being the person who has to front up about it one of the things he did front up about was Robert Sanchez in the goal for two of those absolute howlers that cost Chelsea two goals Gregor you've talked about Chelsea keepers before they've obviously been playing Jorgensen and then Sanchez comes in for this one Rossini is saying I take the blame for this one fronting up again for something else that's nothing to do with him nothing to do with him the goalkeeper issue is a real problem position for Chelsea isn't it it has been for a long time it's amazing they've signed all these players and never signed a number one still, I mean yeah come on I know at this stage I'm sounding like a broken record but it is extraordinary that after the amount of money they've spent that's through goalkeeper and they still don't really have a proper striker I don't think they do, he signed Liam De Lappe as an opportunistic sort of release clause age potential yeah but if you've spent close to one and a half billion quid But is he the...

13:06Yeah, it blows my mind. But he has been better this season, but he's still got this in his locker. And there's no chance that they would win the league with Robert Sanchez. Yeah, did make some good saves at the end, having made two absolute howlers. Do you remember I'd done a piece a few weeks back about talking about goalkeepers and having an effect on who wins the Premier League? And that, to me, is a typical example. Now, he might say it's on him, but the next team selection, he might not be starting. Because you hear this a lot. What's on him? What he was talking about there was the things he was asking him to do with the ball at his feet, I think.

13:38But that wasn't the issue. Of course it wasn't. The second one, he's missed the cross completely. Flapped it here. And even if he'd have connected with it, what would that actually have done? That ball could have gone anywhere. They're two howlers, aren't they? And then there's this whole conversation about Jokeres, and this was a big night for him. It was like, he benefited from a howler. He was in the right place. Come on. He was standing behind a cross that should never have got to him. so it's like you know yeah I mean Liam Rossini was trying to protect him but I don't think he'll be able to protect him forever who are the best goalkeepers in the Premier League yeah who are the best after David Ryan I mean Donnarum has come in and made a difference to City without a doubt I would I don't know for the fellow at Sunderland Robin Roofs at Sunderland had a very excellent season I mean Alisson Wimfit still a terrific goalkeeper for Liverpool Martin Azat Villa yeah he's again he's another one that's done particularly well it's not Kepa no he came and flapped as well and then was shouting and mourning and expecting for the goal to be shot.

14:35Yeah, oh, absolutely. Goalkeepers are screwing minds more than any position on the pitch. Of course, yeah. And that's one of the hazards of being a keeper is that, you know, watching last night, the first thing you'll read on your messages or you're chatting to other players, keeper. But it's been the keeper for 18 months, and yet he's played far better than he did last year, this stage last year, up until last night. But the bottom line is, it's like if you're a striker and you ain't been scoring goals, then suddenly you have two great opportunities. You miss them both. He's had a good season.

15:07Sanchez has had a good season by his standards in previous seasons. He hasn't had necessarily a good season by the standards of, say, Alisson or Ederson in his prime for Manchester City. You're not at that level. What you're at is, well, last year it looked calamitous and the year before it looked calamitous and this year, it doesn't look calamitous. He's been fairly solid. But that last night was, you know, the tie should be over. Two games in and already plenty of issues for Liam Rossini. Just a quick question on Arsenal. Thinking about this game, Greg, you mentioned Jokeres getting a goal there.

15:48A lovely finish from Zubomendi, those quick feet in the box. What a brilliant goal. Are they playing at their level yet? As in at the highest, highest level? Because we talk about teams kicking in late in the season. and I was just wondering they've been excellent in lots of periods this season defensively fantastic Gregor as you keep talking about but do you think they've really really shown yet what they're capable of or do we think they've got another level to go to I think part of the way that they kind of play and the way that they've played this season means that they often don't have to a set piece might open the game change the dynamic of the game for them and then they've got the capacity to defend that lead there are also periods in this game last night where it just looked far too comfortable and easy for them.

16:32I didn't think they... I thought they were in another gear. I thought they were in another gear. But that's what I mean. I agree with you, but I've wondered that a lot of times. Are we going to see it? I'd love to see it. Do you know what I mean? You'll see it in the biggest games. You'll see it when they come under real pressure. We're getting towards the final few furlongs of the season and can they see it through? You'll see it in the Champions League knockout phases. We're going to see it. You're probably right. I think just the way the team plays and how efficient they are and how great they are defensively and how great they are at set pieces what was it 24 goals or something it sounded ridiculous incredible they're a smart team seven more than anyone else in Europe like it changes that changes everything so yeah I agree with you they haven't really had to a lot of time they're a smart team I think I was at the game against Liverpool last Thursday and they started the game really well and they faded and quite you know Liverpool in the second half were the better team but they're a smart team they would have lost that game if you were taking about 18 months ago I think they've gradually got better in many different ways and as we talked about there or mentioned about how easy and comfortable it was that's a sign of a really good side and I think there is more to come from them and once they get confidence as in knowing that this team are going to be successful which I think they will be and that means winning either the Premier League or the Champions League they are such a comfortable team and I think a lot of teams are going to get frustrated playing Arsenal because there is more to come.

18:00Declan Weiss has had his go. Their back four is just such a safety net for them. You look at them last night. If you go back four Chelsea... It's like a back eight, isn't it? You can replay any of them. All of them work hard. They don't carry anybody. Even players who you might go, Trossard I think is an absolute... He reminds me of when Wilton, the job he'd done when he was with Arsenal when they were absolutely super... He was never the main player but Trossard's influence on the game. He's tenacious. He's annoying. and he gets goals. He's just a very clever player. I think they've got a really smart team as well.

18:31When things ain't going their way, they keep going. They're a far better team than the ones that have fell away in recent years. Oh, yeah. I would agree with that. More. I think the next level is if Gokic ever really fires as a striker or if someone fires as a striker. If Havertz came on last night, if they go back to Havertz, as a striker and he scores more goals or something like that and then that would take them to another level Exciting times for Arsenal fans lots more to come from them let's move on and talk about Newcastle 0 Manchester City 2 a good performance from City in this one very exciting attacking threat Antoine Semenyo settling immediately but we have to talk about VAR we love Antoine Semenyo we did our love him last week we absolutely love him we have to talk about VAR the latest story from Martin Ziegler on the Times website as I'm reading on Thursday morning the offside technology failed because too many players were around the ball.

19:31PGMOL confirmed semi-automated offside system could not be used to rule on disallowed Antoine Semenyo goal which contributed to a delay of 5 minutes and 40 seconds. Another VAR fast Martin. Yeah I mean look if it took you 5 minutes and 40 seconds there really should be a cut off. There really should be a cut off of which you go umpire's call or something like, you know, the equivalent of, the football equivalent of umpire's call where, right, we can't decide this in two minutes. We'll stick with the on-field decision. Can I, you've started a really, you've started a really... You don't like that.

20:08No, no, I just, you know, what really, really annoys me now about this whole conversation is people trying to find solutions for a system that will never work. Well, before we come on to that, because I am going to ask for solutions in a minute, but I wanted to start because I feel like it's important when you're having a debate around VAR to kind of set your stall out and be like, where are you at? If you were offered the chance to get rid of VAR completely, I'd be. You would do. Yeah? I'd be. Tony? Well, I... I wanted technology to come in. I never envisaged it would be what it has become. And for the first time, I think probably forever, after the Man City game, when Semenya's goal was disallowed, I went to bed.

20:48Yeah. I was like, I literally went to bed, I can't watch it. That's it, it just got me. So you get rid of it as well. Martin, if you're giving the chance to get rid of it. No, I wouldn't get rid of it. I would get rid of it in its present form. Right. I've got a shadow of a doubt. I would get rid of it in its present form. Which leads us nicely onto the idea of keeping it and changing it because you just started there talking about a time issue, which is a lot of people's contention, I think, is how long it takes. So you would be bringing in, what, a timer to fix it? Someone who goes, you've got...

21:15Well, I would say if it's two minutes, if you haven't made the decision in two minutes, it's unpassed call. So it's referees call. Whatever the referee gave, we'll go with that in two minutes and that's it. That's number one. From the very start, I always...

21:35The goal that was used to justify all of VAR was the absolute perfect storm goal that was made for VAR, which is Thierry Henry's handball that knocked Ireland out of the World Cup. because everything about it was perfect for VAR. It was clear and obvious. You could decide it. The first time you looked at it, you went, oh, it's handball. And the referee couldn't see it. And the referee couldn't see it and the play had stopped. So there was no restart issue. There was no, oh, we've got to wind this back. The play's gone on. It's four minutes later. And, you know, nothing like that. It was absolutely perfect.

22:16and everyone was treating it as if, right, this will solve everything. And I can remember writing column after column going, no, no, no, no, no, this is a perfect goal. Football isn't like this and football isn't like it. And football's about marginal calls and the fact that, you know, you get four people in a room talking about a goal, you get six opinions, you know. And this is the worst of all possible worlds because we've given this illusion that we're going to solve everything and it's as bad. Yeah. It's as bad. You're looking at that one the other night. I defy anyone to say with any certainty whatsoever whether that was onside or not.

23:01I can't see how you can possibly call it. So it's a goal. Even Semenyo walking off the pitch, which you never get from players. He had the camera near him because he'd obviously had a great debut and he just let down and went, the other one should have counted as well, by the way. and you're like don't disagree with you mate but also you'd never get a player doing that Greg I assume from your reactions to some of the things Martin said and from your answer to my question earlier the most definitive answer you've ever given maybe on the game podcast that you have no solutions to VAR two things can be right yeah no there's no both things can't be true with VAR tone just one thing get rid of it yeah there's no solution no I don't think there is a solution I can totally see this right of view I think whatever solution people whatever solutions are being posed are put forward will just create a whole new world of unforeseen circumstances.

23:49Like the 60 second idea. There are so many goals I can think back to where there were like four incidents that had to be considered and analysed in the build up to the goal. You can't do that in 60 seconds. So if you want to have the technology you've got to allow them to actually do it properly. But nobody wants them to do it properly if it's going to take six minutes. So you're in a no one situation. There's also an interesting thing isn't there this weekend with this decision coming after an FA Cup weekend when we don't have VAR. And every fan probably in the ground experiencing what I get to when I go to Lincoln games with like no VAR.

24:22And it's just absolutely fantastic. And I would just say very quickly, sorry, I was in the office late on for the Liverpool-Barnsley game and there was an amazing moment. I've forgotten the referee's name, apologies, but there was Barnsley player running through. So Bosley was behind him and he went down. Hoorahan was going crazy on the Barnsley bench. And you're thinking, oh God, is this one going to be one you want VAR? Because the score was quite close at that time. watch the replay no foul great referee decision and he was right there he was right there watching it and you're going turns out they can do it turns out turns out they can no no a big thing that struck me this season is how good actually in particular assistant referees are linesmen at getting off sides like we're going to we're probably come on to the thing that you know Martin Rock recently about Wenger's offside law the daylight law Cairns come out and said you know it would create a whole world of new problems like I thought semi-automated off-sides would help because it just removes a layer of human error and uncertainty and all the pissing about drawing lines on a screen It's in a bad mood ladies and gentlemen But then it failed because there are too many people around it So that's another issue But my biggest thing now is the ripple effect It's like we're asking people to look into the future or to say definitively because you have to say it definitively whether Erling Haaland's grappling with and being grappled by Malik Theor affected Theor's ability to clear the ball off the line.

25:52He wouldn't have been there if Erling Haaland wasn't there. It's a nonsense. The whole concept is a nonsense. Would he have affected his ability to clear it? Of course, but he's only there because Haaland's there in the first place. It's stupid. like the only way I can see that being like a sensible law is if say Semenyu got a flick and it was literally the ball was bobbling into the net like bobbling into the corner really slowly and Haaland came from an offside position and blocked off the aw like really clearly and like Clos making an action to try and clear off the line oh no you blocked him come from offside position fair enough that's like that's not fair ultimately this should all be about fairness again but no one in the ground no one watching it live no one saw an offside or a foul and VAR the presence of VAR is taking the goal away it's like a stain on the game now and then they've come out and said ah yes it couldn't work because there were so many people around the ball it was impossible to judge you go well so why did you disallow the goal so I'm sitting there with my 10 year old son and your PJ's on ready to go watching the game and he says to me, he goes, he says to me, Daddy, why is that goal disallowed?

27:11I don't know, son. I haven't got a clue. Don't know why. I can't think of a reason. And you see the grappling of Haaland involved and you also see a foul in the 18-yard box and no one's ever mentioned happening as the incident. Look, common sense has to come into football of some level. And I'm not even a fan of a clock time because I just feel, well, that'll get messed up. You know, it'll be, like Gregor said, there's a number of incidents to look at. You'll just get lost in the time thing. You've got 10 seconds and there's a foul on the other side. Quick, quick, quick. I think it was so obvious in a common sense way that you have to give it.

27:53No other reason is because if you're looking for things, you know, where's the game going to end up? If we continue in this vein, the game in 10 years time will be even worse than it is now because we'll be literally looking at VAR for everything in every detail throw-ins and corners corners are coming in aren't they they're going to trial they're going to trial corners and and you look at it and you think right you can't have a six minute alone whether something's a corner or not you would have to set a time limit on a corner you would have to say right okay so what did it take everyone to That's the other reason why it'll never work, because there's never an end point.

28:32There's never an end point. If the technology's available to give you an answer, or you think it's going to give you an answer, you want it available. Everyone wants it perfect. It's not meant to be perfect. The other thing... Sorry, Gregor. Sometimes sport is about how you overcome adversity. And the adversity does include, every now and then, a decision that goes against you. It's not right, it's not fair. I'm not saying any of that is right and fair, but part of sport is how you overcome that. When England had that goal disallowed against West Germany... A Lampard goal. A Lampard goal. They didn't have to concede four goals in that game.

29:15That was something that they just did because they weren't good enough. What you could have done is overcome adversity and then come back in the second. They didn't follow that they had to lose the game 4-1. Sorry, I will let the guys... no no no Gregor was just desperate just another thing is that there was obviously a similar incident happened 24 hours later with an Arsenal Chelsea game with Mark Gouy on the line and then you hear the commentator saying he's facing the other way like he's facing the other way because he's not he's he's concentrating on marking right but the other thing is clearly in the 24 hours there's been a conversation or a directive by the GGM got that wrong to say we don't want this infinitesimal detailed analysis of the decision, you've got to come to it quicker but it keeps happening you say right, ok that's the directive now and then the referees or the VARs go down a rabbit hole because they're trying to go by the letter of the law and then you get another directive or Howard Webb comes on mic'd up and says this is not what we're asking for, what we're asking the referees to do is, you keep asking them to do these things and then they keep going back to the letter of the law and it takes five minutes.

30:29It's just a cycle. It keeps going on and on. You don't think there's any way... Look, it's not football... You know, you just literally... Everything's going to be right. You know, it's never going to happen. So we're all conscious that mistakes are going to happen in games. And I look at it and I just think, I just want a bit of common sense in the game. Because the game suffers. It's not you talking about football. You're talking about that. that it's, you know, we're talking about a level of football that we see now, the physicality, it's the highest levels, et cetera, et cetera. Is it, you know, you talked about going to bed last night, Gregor, you used to call it a stain on the game.

31:04Are we all saying the game is worse for viewing from an entertainment point of view? Let's put it like this. If before the game started, yeah, there was a picture on a screen and it was somebody at Stockley Park with a great big pair of scissors and they said, now we're going to begin the game with a ceremonial severing of the link between this ground and Stockley Park and just cut straight through the wire, the entire place would cheer. Yeah. Everyone in the stadium would cheer like it was a goal. Right, that's it. So I think that tells you whether it's better or worse. Just the final thing on the Thierry-Henri point, because that is the one that he's always referred back to.

31:41You don't think there's any world in which there's like a, you know, Thierry's law where it's like, you've tinned it, mate. It's a quick thing. But that's what it was meant to be. That's how it started. That's what they said it was going to be. But we can't row back to that. we don't think there's a world in which that can work I'd love that to be it I remember Johnny saying that we had this debate three years ago once we were sitting here and we're still having the same debate I think he said it was Paddy Barkley who first said that to him he said all you need is a guy sitting on a chair with a TV screen and going with the ability to pick up the phone if there's an absolute howler or the fourth official who's got a screen going you've really messed up you've cocked that one this is what you need to vote back that's all it needed but we'll never be able to have that because if you have the technology everyone wants everything to be correct and like for me the fundamental point is the howler like Thierry Henry like being able to correct that I don't think it's worth it for the goals like Josh Kings that was disallowed at Chelsea or this one the goals like to correct that it's not worth it to have this goals that should have been allowed that are being taken away because of VAR that balance it's not worth it and when you see and the ridiculous thing is that now you've got all of these you know tiny tiny margins and tiny decisions and every now and then there'll be one like the T-A-R-E-O we won that doesn't actually go over a term where you're thinking if you think back to the cup final and thinking Henderson and outside the area and handball and all of that and you're looking at that thinking oh that is absolutely what VR was there for that is absolutely what it was there for even the way they record the errors now I laugh at that too there's another story this week that they've increased the errors have increased by 30 % this season 13 mistakes and it was 10 this point last season season on season but they're in decline they say they're in decline but a lot of them are still subjective I know who's deciding this there's a thing called the KMI panel key match incident panel it's got three former players or coaches and a representative from the Premier League and a PGMO I'm sorry like I still hear Howard Webb coming on Mic'd up And saying things I disagree with And I'm not just I'm not saying I'm right All the time It's subjective There's no right answer So the way even That they log it And they sell it By saying We're getting a lot of You know A lot of right decisions We're hardly making Any interventions Like even that In itself is flawed My least favourite word Example Right Because you can give An example of anything That's crazy I love your least favourite Words There's so many of us It's because it's like You can give an example Of anything in life you think of any discussion you could go oh well what about that one then oh yeah absolutely what you get is this terrible precedent thing where they make some diabolical decision and then they go oh yes but we can't do this because that set a precedent yeah but it set a precedent that was completely wrong and false and stupid we've got to be able to U-turn on that you know absolutely stacked with views as ever we could have done a whole show on VAR once we get going listeners do get in touch with me there's volumes of books and essays in VAR let me tell you I might have to be the one who writes I was going to say you should write it what do you think VAR will be like because it's going to stay what's it going to be like in 2030 2035 well that was kind of my question because it's not going we all want to get rid of it but you know I also hate that start point why can't we say it's time to bin it why can't we you start the campaign mate come on I've seen more and more people I've been like saying that for quite a while now you never start a campaign you can't win old newspaper adage that's the defeatist attitude Mare I've seen people like tweeting things or like people who are really behind it now just say I'm sick of this even like you know people who are like quite you know normally quite progressive in their views about football or whatever say I've had enough I'm done why can't it be done did they go to bed why not did they go to bed actually I know why because Gianni Infantino or whatever I mean we're not talking much about the game but like I mean I think would you think even Newcastle fans would be agreeing with this they've obviously lost the game well they're delighted it was chalked off but deep down if it was their team they'd be absolutely human I know people who support West Ham who are looking at the only upside of getting relegated this season is well we'll play in the championship and we won a VAR I'm telling you it's class when you go to a game you don't have to worry about it you're not scoring a goal and thinking oh wait the only thing is the only problem the only problem is all the leagues that haven't got it I'm thinking about say the WSL and stuff like that are going bananas and demanding it because the mistakes are being made and then they can see that the same level of mistakes are not being made in the Premier League.

36:28Just look at Scotland, by the way. Yeah, yeah, yeah. They were doing that and now they're thinking, what have we done? Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. No, fair enough. Yeah, fair enough. I mean, absolutely packed with views. As I say, listeners, do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk. If there's any of you out there who, A, want to keep VAR, B, have got a good idea as to how we fix it, or C, want to get behind the Gregor Robertson campaign, get rid of VAR in football. You're going to hear more about that, I'm sure, on the rest of the season. A quick word, I mentioned Barnsley in there. A quick word for Barnsley.

36:57Excellent performance in defeat at Liverpool on Monday and a shout out for Rays Clary, the Barnsley winger, already scored from halfway line this season and took on everyone at Anfield. Big future for the 21-year-old. I absolutely loved watching him on Monday night. Time for a quick break. After the break, we'll be discussing the Manchester Derby. So, a little quiz question. New head coach Michael Carrick was a 93rd minute substitute as United beat City 4-3 at Old Trafford in 2009 but who kept him out of the United team in central midfield and scored twice in a memorable victory? Find out after the break.

37:40Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Gregor Robertson pumped up from his VAR debate straight in with the answer to the quiz question, which was? Darren Fletcher. Darren Fletcher, the Scotland Union working its magic. Plenty of discussion already around Michael Carrick being named as the Manchester United head coach on Monday's show, but it was confirmed the former midfielder placed in charge to the end of the season and something we didn't see coming necessarily. We'll lead Steve Holland, Gareth Southgate's former number two with England, joining his backroom team.

38:14Martin, you discussed the Manchester United situation with Johnny on last Thursday's show. We obviously now know it's Carrick. Very interesting, as we were discussing when planning this show, that he's not got interim in his title. He's called head coach till the end of the season. He's got 17 games to get Champions League, Europa League football. He's got Steve Holland in there. What do you make of how United have played this and where they've ended up with going into the Manchester derby? Yeah, well, look, if you keep having, I mean how many interims have they had now is he third fourth fifth or whatever they've had a lot I mean in recent times it's not a good look it's not a good look because it means you keep losing your manager halfway through the season so that's not impressive having said this if it is a way that Carrick could get the job he's got the job permanently at the moment but if you know a longer contract, if he could become the Manchester United manager with a contract for two or three years, well then I'd be in favour of that.

39:21And if they thought he was the man for the job and if the results suggest he's the man for the job, I don't necessarily see why they would have to then change the manager. In the summer, all the talk of, oh, they're good because they'll wait until after the World Cup, maybe Tuchel will be available, maybe Pochettino will be available. Well, that seems far too late to be bringing a manager in. So I think it's a great chance for Carrick as long as they're willing to take him seriously. Yeah, yeah. Well, as you say, Paul Hurst reporting on the Times website that we understand that United are keeping an open mind, which kind of speaks to your point there regarding who will take over next season, which suggests Carrick could force his way into contention, although big names such as Oliver Glasner, Thomas Tuchel and Roberto De Zerbe are also potentially in the frame.

40:09Tony, your reaction to this situation? As I mentioned, Steve Holland, a little bit of a curveball we didn't see coming, but has had big success in the game as an assistant at various different levels. We'll bring some experience to this. I mean, look, it's great for Michael to have an opportunity. I mean, we always made the argument, didn't we? Whatever really well-known manager dropped down levels, how would he do? And now we've seen in the last week, we've got two lads who are going in from Rosinha at Chelsea and to Michael Carrick who have been given a job that they probably wouldn't have had a chance with.

40:39But make the most of it. He's got to win over the fans, as in the playing style, and show that he can get a lot more than Amrim out of that squad. Whether it's via formations, whether it's by performances of certain individuals, he's got to show that this team are going to be able to play on the front foot and have some resemblance. Because if you take it back, Oli Gunnar-Sholzko got the job initially because of that. He sort of changed the way United, and it was attack, attack, which the United fans wanted to see. Can Michael have his own way and get them into Europe? It's a challenge. Because United lose heavily in revenue if they don't make Champions League football.

41:20And they've invested enough. Or even Europa League. Yeah, Europa League. They finished 15th last season. Look, the bottom line is for Michael Carrick is that it's a fantastic opportunity for him. And I'm sure it's one he will embrace, but he also knows that he's going to need literally Champions League form to get into the top four. Do you think so, even in this season? Yeah, I mean, look, you could get it by default. Arsenal, City, then Villa, Liverpool are looking much better of late, but that fifth spot... Villa's not a certainty either. No. That fifth spot is up for grabs. I think Villa are a much better team than United.

41:55It's not a certainty that they'll finish third comfortably. I think there's a possibility. I think it's Champions League football. If he gets that, I think they'll give him the job. And especially if they play to a manner that is accepted or needed at Old Trafford. Because whatever we say, the best clubs in Europe, whether you're Barcelona, Real Madrid, Bayern Munich, PSG, you look at the leading clubs, they have to play a style of football that is attacking, is not counter, it's not defensive, it's not possession of the ball, it's with effect on the opposition. that's what they're about so he has to show he's capable of getting that within the team yeah just very quickly on Villa as you mentioned our pal Johnny Northcroft he might not be on the podcast but he's got exclusive news stories on the Times website Aston Villa closing in on the signing of Tammy Abraham after beating off rivals to offer a long term contract to an England striker so Villa again potentially adding to their attacking line up in January window as they did last season so it'll be interesting to what effect that has on their performances but coming back to United Gregor and Carrick we've discussed it we discussed it on Monday Tony mentioned it there can he get more out of this squad out of this team than Ruben Amirim did whether he goes for a 4-2-3-1 formation potentially it'd be interesting if he went for a back three I don't think he will but thinking about that stylistically some of the things we talked about on Monday's show Benjamin Sesko looking more dangerous when he's got wide players playing the ball into him giving him opportunity to run onto things have they got a better squad for let's say if it's 4-2-3-1 have they got a better squad for that?

43:27yeah they still have the same problem midfield still not like overly convinced about their defensive options but when you've got Ahmad, Bruno yeah Bruno, Brian Webmo, Cunha all them possibly supporting Sesco or you could put Cunha up front if you had to, got good attacking options there so yeah like I don't know I think the broader pictures also kind of makes it a bit more appealing for Carrick than it was even for Solskjaer. I think when you think back to when Solskjaer was appointed initially on an interim basis, you had Jurgen Klopp, Liverpool and City and their pet coming into their prime.

44:07Like, competing with them at that level. Even when Solskjaer was doing really well, we still had the conversation like, you're still asking Manchester United to compete with these two teams with Ole Gunnar Solskjaer as your manager. You're competing against two of the greatest coaches in modern history. He got them second and said it wasn't good enough, didn't he? which actually you look back and go fair play pretty good actually the landscape's different now like Arsenal are on the rise under Arteta but Liverpool aren't what they were City aren't what they were and the whole league seems like far more wide open so I think actually he comes in although we discussed the other week the squad isn't as strong the league isn't as strong it's not sorry the very top end of the league isn't as strong so there is an opportunity for Michael Carrick and as I mentioned when you were saying who would you take out of the two of them the reason I would have took Carrick was because he has a future you can see him doing well between now and into the season and yeah they'll be looking at what the other options are but if he does really well it's hard not to give him the job you can give him the job and the fans will go let's get behind him there's a possible future in this you couldn't have done that with Solskjaer Martin your reaction to some of the points the guys made there about the squad and the set up and Champions League and all those kind of things if we think that it will go down to the fifth place again for the Premier League, and there was every chance that it could do, then that is not beyond Manchester United at all.

45:34It's going to be hard to get in the top four if we end up in the top four, as we did a couple of years ago, wasn't it? Or two or three years ago was the last time. It was just the top four because getting ahead of Aston Villa, Aston Villa look a better team. And you've got to think that Liverpool will come good. I mean, particularly if they, I don't know what's keeping them, if they could try to get Mark Gwehi in this January transfer window, then that would solve an awful lot of problems there. So that will be difficult. But, as you say, you can get them playing a certain way and you can get them playing more the Manchester United way.

46:15And this is, look, you know, at some clubs, this idea of a way, the West Ham way, you're thinking, you haven't watched them for however many years, there's been a lot of rubbish over at West Ham, supposedly playing the West Ham way. Manchester United have got a way, Manchester United should be on the front foot, even when they were lousy, they were always on the front foot.

46:44And so there's room, there's room for them to make a big impact because you've got quite a, ironically really with Manchester United you're starting quite low I was going to say it's low expectations come fifth and play a bit of football that's not really that didn't used to be the expectation at Manchester United but also very low confidence as well so low expectations, low confidence they're at home against their local rivals who are higher in the table have been there for a long time looking very good at the minute what does he produce? a spirited 4-2 defeat? is that a good thing? have a go?

47:17Solskjaer beat them in his first season. They've won away as well. Absolutely. I was at the game. I got murdered and won away. That was very counter-attacking, wasn't it? Yeah, very back to the wall. So that's what I'm saying, coming back to your point about the way. Does he want to be playing four attackers? Gregor listed them all there. Do we want to be kind of going for it? Man City, you know, I think the Manchester United fans will be in Man City, however it comes. I really don't think Saturday is necessarily the day to be your most cavalier self, shall we say. But, because they'll just take any, and you know, they'll take a point, really, in the current state.

47:57I think you'll see a lot of, you know, a lot similar to what Darren Fletcher, the changes Darren Fletcher made, apart from some changes in personnel, possibly midfield, possibly people coming back from AFCON, more options. I think fundamentally we'll see the same sort of changes. They elicited some positive steps, as we discussed the other day, seeing Cescou getting crosses into the box that he can attack and score goals from. I think that's the kind of thing that Manchester United fans will want to see and probably Carrick will be starting. I mean, it's a hard problem when you play City because as Newcastle found out, if you don't take your chances early on, once they start getting over the ball and keeping it, it's really...

48:38Looking at the game, I think it's really hard for Man United to get the ball. And when they do, how long can they keep it? because that team will get it off you very, very quickly. So it's a challenge. They're still probably the best football team. Arsenal are the best team. But if you're talking about pure football and when they play, they're still probably the best. Yeah, big challenge for Michael Carrick going into this weekend. A big derby, as I say, in Manchester. Just wanted to finish with some of our favourite derbies that you've either watched or played in. Tony, you must have played in some crackers down the years.

49:06What was your favourite? I played PSG Marseille. That was pretty lively. Obviously, north of the border was incredible just because of everything that happened before the game got in the way in some strange way. The Celtic Rangers. The Celtic Rangers was just phenomenal. My first one. You scored against Rangers, didn't you? Yeah, away. That was at Ibrox. We drew 1-1. Yeah, that was an incredible day for me as well. But I'd still put Millwall West Ham in there. Yeah. I played in a couple of games then. I never really saw how toxic it could get, especially as it's not on the 50 ,000 people there that you had at iBox or you had at Celtic Park.

49:48Probably Celtic Rangers just because it was literally from the very first. The build-up to the game, the way the players spoke, can't get beat, having a meeting about whatever we do Monday morning, we can't show our faces in the dressing room or to anyone in the club. Everyone got to keep their head, then someone gets sent off because they haven't kept their head. It was just ferocious. The first one was literally, I mean, Hailey scored two in the one I played, and that was really fiesty. What was the PSG Marseille one like? Just because it was... The hatred. They hate each other, don't they? They hate each other, and I mean, they're 600 kilometres apart, and yet you were well aware that, you know, because Marseille have a lot of fans in Paris, and so a lot of them tried to get tickets to the game, but that was full on.

50:36There was rockets going off everywhere, and things you couldn't get in stadiums in England weren't in the stadium at the party. Sounds like Grimsby-Lincoln, Tom. Yeah, the big one. I'm glad you mentioned it. I'm glad you mentioned it. Best ones you played in or watched? Good ones you like it. I mean, I used to go to watch Old Form Derbies and yeah, there's something unique about them. Been at some crackers too where like, when Van Vossen missed the biggest set I've ever seen and like, oh my God. So what was it, say the biggest hit? What was it, literally in front of goal? I don't know whether it was Gascoigne.

51:11Gascoigne was playing that game too and he was running clean through and he just won a woman with the keeper and he just laid it to the side and he was six yards out, skied over the bar and I've never heard a player be given so much grief for that kind of thing. I think he lost that game too. Anyway, so many good old firm games. They're just seething. Best played in is probably Forest Derby. Because that's still pretty feisty. They're not big fans of each other at all. I got booked after about a minute of coming on in one of those games and lauded like a hero probably did you flatten someone? I think we'd had a man sent off with 10 minutes to go so I came on and I'd only made my debut a few weeks before as well so it was quite a game I'd get chucked in there and it was like a looping ball over my head I think it was Pesca Solido and I just went to volley it and he just nipped in and I just volleyed him so yeah it didn't go down too badly but you know I was like still get sent off You get a badge up on the floor.

52:06Yeah, I was going to say, Nottingham Forest hero instantly. Martin, you've covered the game all over the country, all over the world, in fact. I hate a sports agency versus the Associated Press. I knew you were going to come back with a weird one. You used to get a bit lively, you know. Best one you've seen as a correspondent, though, across the world. I was at an old firm derby. It's all the old firm. You've all gone old firm. When Vatsgrim was playing. And I remember filing my match report and getting to the airport and flying back. It was New Year's Day. God knows why I did it. And I was flying back and I've checked into the office.

52:40Everything okay with the match? They went, yeah, you haven't mentioned the flute. So I said, what flute? So I'm at the one where he plays the flute and nearly causes World War III or whatever. But I haven't seen it. It's down the other side of the ground. I'm still taking my notes. It's over in a flash or whatever, really. everyone else has seen it I'm like you know plus it doesn't mean that much to me I'm not even looking for it I'm not even imagining something like that could happen it means a lot to people

53:16we've already done VAR let's not do that one a lot of people in the stadium noticed I was just thinking oh they're just annoyed because this is what it's like up here I didn't realise what he'd done that was lively I can remember doing the New Camp I remember doing Real Madrid at New Camp very early on in my career we're talking about Lionel Messi time as well no no no John Toschak's the manager of Real Madrid and someone got booked for time wasting when it was in play I've never seen anything like it amazing what were they doing just stood on the ball they just stood on the ball and just went right well come on yeah and he booked him and the other And the other team wouldn't go forward, so he just stabbed with his front end.

54:06The referee went over and booked him. He's thinking, well, you can't do that, mate. It's in play. It's up to them to come to Wallsham. But the whole thing was going nuts. The whole thing was going nuts. I did some of Paul Gascoigne's Lazio versus Roma. They were a little bit lively as well. They're not for the future, they either. Never done a South American one. I've always wanted to. I've always wanted to. I've done, I'll tell you what I did do. I did the Club World Cup final in Rio when Man U, you know, when they expanded it. Vasco, Vasco. And it ends up as Vasco da Gama versus Corinthians.

54:45And it was the most terrible game of a dreadful, dreadful game of football. But before the match, like seeing the Corinthian fans coming in to like the Maracanã area is absolutely terrifying. They'd all been on these coaches for about four or five hours. The ones that still had windows were just like completely steamed up. Nobody had anything on above the waist. They've got pirate flags. The Corinthians flag is like the skull and crossbones. They've got them flying off these coaches or whatever. people out of favelas and stuff like this banging on the wind and I can remember it was me and Ollie Holt and we were just looking at it going oh my god what are we doing here what are we doing here it was I've never seen anything like it but the actual match itself was abysmal it was a terrible game of football they often are but before I've never seen anything like that well let's hope the Manchester Derby is not a terrible game of football we'll be talking about that on Monday show we'll leave it there for now Tony Cascarino Gregor Robertson and Martin Samuel thank you very much for joining me as always if you've got some of your favourite Derby memories or favourite rivalries do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetime.co.uk and we'll discuss them on Monday's show we'll see you then