VAR is finished but City aren't

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times a 93rd minute winner a 98th minute wonder save, and then a VAR fast, which took us well past 100 minutes. It was a thrilling finish to Liverpool 1, Manchester City 2, as Pep Guardiola's side made sure the title race goes on. On today's show, we'll discuss that match, another win for Manchester United, more madness from Christian Romero, ask whether Eddie Howe and Fabian Hertzler should be under pressure, and look at the tight relegation battle too. I'm Tom Clarke, and joining me today, we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist, Alison Rudd, The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Tottenham is Tom Allnut.

0:43And the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is here as usual. Team Monday morning, another magic weekend of football. How are we all feeling? Feeling good. Gregor is not feeling good. He's upset. How do you want to approach this, mate? Because like therapy, do you want to, should we talk about football first or do you want to get it out of the way? Let's talk about revolution. Revolution. Yeah, let's do that. He was intimidating me a bit before the podcast came on. Before we started, he was sort of getting in my grill a bit. He was revved. He's revved, isn't he? I think a tide is turning.

1:11I do. And you think you're going to lead the charge, eh? I'm not saying that. Well, I think there'll be a few of us, to be honest. Yeah. And just to be clear, this revolution is death to VAR. Isn't that the plot of Les Miserables, death to VAR? I think so. Yeah, potentially. I could see Gregor in a musical, actually. Anyway, just to be clear, this is the farce at the end for Anfield. Goal scored. Decision comes back. Denying a goal-scoring opportunity, even though it was a goal, remarkable scenes you can tell Tom we talked about this before we hit record I knew Gregor was really upset because he started tweeting about it never a good sign when Grandad is on the couch at home and getting angry but this does encapsulate your main frustration with it doesn't it that it's taken the game somewhere that it's never it was never meant to be yeah it's funny it's not actually my main takeaway is that like football's capacity for producing like an endless supply of the most polarising incidents and like unimaginable incidents is remarkable.

2:14Like, I don't know how the game, you couldn't have made this up. And like, but it was just a brilliant moment. It was a magnificent moment of the season. It was like, it was hilarious. It was like slapstick stuff. Yeah, yeah. But it was wild and it was thrilling. It's quite symbolic as well, like Haaland running away, Liverpool behind him, you know. And like, those are the moments where, you know, as you're watching, even you're watching at home on TV your heart starts to beat a little bit faster and you're like and then you're getting used now to that being replaced with a sinking feeling in your chest because you know that this monstrosity is going to decimate that moment and like make us talk like this about it instead of what a great end to the game that was like you know we'll probably fleetingly talk about Sabo's life's free kick and like the rest of the stuff you mentioned in the intro there but the first thing we're talking about is VAR and that's a disgrace it is and like for me as I say this moment because it was so unusual and peculiar and like unimaginable it's actually not the most and it followed the letter of the law like the decision did it's not the most egregious sort of incident by any means Would you have been just as cross had the referee made all those decisions as opposed to VAR making those decisions if the referee had decided to send off Sir Boz Lyon give a free kick instead of letting the goal stand Would you have been just as cross?

3:38You wouldn't, would you? No, no. That says a lot as well. So what you're saying is what you love is referees getting also caught up in the moment and maybe making technical mistakes, but everyone knowing it doesn't really matter. Yes. Right. Also, it's for the good of the entertainment, isn't it? I think, you know, Martin Samuel's written about it on the Times website and sums it up well with his final paragraph. So everything was right, except nothing was right. Nothing was wrong, except everything was wrong. and it all went off completely as it should, except everybody wished that it hadn't.

4:08And it sent 60 ,000 people home unhappy, which is the other thing. That's not true, though. I mean, there are people, and we've been talking about this before, there are people who think this was the right decision. I think we all think it's the right decision. People are happy with the decision. There are people who are happy with the decision. I mean, I think it was the right decision, though. I mean, I personally think there are loads of arguments against VAR and it has many, many flaws, but I think one of the weakest arguments is to say that it shouldn't deliver the right decision in the name of entertainment.

4:38Because ultimately, let the game deliver those entertaining moments anyway. We don't need to kind of cancel things or get to the wrong decision to make it more fun. Ultimately, this was a goal. We're talking about goals, which is, you know, if we want the line to be high for where VAR intervenes, in terms of goals, red cards, penalties, this wasn't one of those areas where you think, oh, it's just VAR can't really rule on this because it's too difficult to get to a decision. It was a goal and it's an important thing. Like it might not feel an important thing. But to use Alison's questioning, would you, if the goal had stood, would you have been sat here going, they should have pulled that back.

5:11Would you have been equally as angry as Gregor is about the reverse? So if the ball trickles into the net, we're all going, oh, that's crazy. And then people are saying, oh, it's probably a foul, wasn't it? Ah, but don't matter. You would have been like, no, actually, we should have, I'm quite upset about that. I think if the referee had come to the decision himself, I think I would have been like, yeah, that's annoying. It's a shame. It's not the right, you know, of course you want the climax to the match, but it's the right call. And what are we saying here? We want the game just to be more entertaining, but we don't really care.

5:40I mean, that's a slightly weird precedent to set where you think actually just the rules don't matter. And the most important thing is that the entertainment is the highest point. No, I'm even going further than that. I'm saying that VAR has actually illuminated that the written word and language cannot communicate the spirit of the laws of the game. Like, it's not possible. and I think it's taken VAR for us to realise that it's like the laws of the game can't bear the scrutiny that VAR has given it now but that's not the case in this case though is it because it was a clear foul like I'm not looking at the replay and thinking is that a foul?

6:14I don't know why is VAR getting involved? is it a clear foul? yeah but the outcome everyone, even people who think that that it should have been you know that the referee the VAR and referee did the right thing everyone would accept that the outcome was correct well the outcome was a goal that's the other point he sent off for denying a goal scoring opportunity and it was a goal we know that Haaland that's the amazing bit of the wording of it we know that Haaland was winning the race until he was pulled back we know that Haaland fouled him fouled him after he'd already been fouled but we know that the outcome would have been a goal like barring something ridiculous so like that's all I'm saying I think when you talk about the feel of the game it's about what you feel is right and wrong and that's what Martin's talking about and the right outcome was arrived at without the need for any intervention.

7:00That's the point. And that's so often the case. But this is so ironic because the main, one of the main problems with VAR is you go, it's not, that it's not magic and it goes to a human being or a couple of them and they make a subjective call on lots of issues and you think, well, it's, well, you know, they're reviewing it but why do we agree with them? They seem to have got it wrong or just they're not on the field of play. Why are they asking two random geezers in a booth to do this. Whereas in this instance, this is actually the most non-subjective decision we've had because it's got nothing to do with...

7:39And it still doesn't feel right. So maybe this is a critical... A lot of the discussion has been, you can't go back. We've got VAR now. All we can do is move forward and make it better. It seems to me this is a critical point at which we're saying, maybe this is the minute we decide we just don't want VAR at all. There's also, there was Craig Pawson's face as well. You could see he was like, I hate this. I absolutely hate this. I just want this to finish. Because we were all on the editing floor being like, the game's still happening. How many more minutes is this going to be? You could tell he just was like, oh, this is horrendous.

8:15I just want this to go away. But I have to apply these laws. The weird thing about it is the second foul doesn't happen if it's not the first foul, right? That's the kind of flaw in the thing, is that Harlan doesn't make the second foul if it's not for Sobbertslein pulling him back. So the idea that you sort of penalise both is slightly flawed, isn't it? Because ultimately, if they're both running free, Haaland scores the goal. But you're asking, I mean, I agree with that. That is slightly flawed. But you can't ask the referee to guess. Even if it's more exciting that he guesses, you can't, the rules have to be there, Gregor, don't they?

8:46You can't just say, I want the most exciting thing all the time because there will be incidents where it's the less exciting thing. So you have to apply the rule. But can the referee not be watching that and going, the ball's going in here. they're pulling each other he's pulled his shirt he's pulled his shirt the ball's going in leave it and most importantly Dominic Sabosley was the first one to commit the foul yeah okay but where does that end so for example with Salah's thing with Mark Gahey for example where does that end do you say okay Salah's going to go through there and we know that it takes slots argument Salah scores that goal like nine times out of ten for Liverpool over the last ten years therefore we give Liverpool the goal where do you end that point where the referee's guessing where the projection carries forward we'll give it when the ball is crossed the line and it's in the net but this was the ball we don't know that The ball was going into an open goal, though.

9:28Like with the Salah one, he's got to actually get through, have the shot, score past Donnarumma. This one, the ball, the referee, Paulson is surely watching this going, this is going in. I'm just going to leave it. This is going in. And then he's like, oh God, I forgot about VAR. Oh, crikey. Anyway, but I think, listen, I think we are in a bit of a both things can be true in terms of what Tom and Gregor are saying here. But just coming back to your point about a revolution, you feel like, all jokes aside, you feel like there's a tide turning here. You said it a couple of weeks ago. against VAR.

9:56Yeah, I don't know whether... I'm also getting a bit tired of people saying, we're never going to scrap VR, we're never going to throw it in the bin, even if people say they want that. There comes a point where, what have we done? What have we done to the game? What have we allowed to happen? And we're not actually allowed it to happen. There was no consultation. It just happened. Gianni Infantino got the top job at FIFA and very quickly we had VAR for the World Cup in 2018, I think it was. It just happened so quickly without any sort of... There's been so many unforeseen circumstances, and they are unforeseen, but there was no trial.

10:40It all happened far too quickly. And the damage that's been done, I think, is enormous to the spectacle and to the feeling of the game. And as I say, that feeling in your chest being replaced with a sinking feeling, like a sadness. instead of joy. That's what I get now watching some of these games. And the main things for me are handball, fouls and offside have not only just been complicated enormously, but they've also just multiplied the opportunity for human error to decide all those things. So it's not just about coming to the right decision. It's actually given us more opportunities to make the wrong decision.

11:23and that is bizarre it's absurd like when you when you just look at that on its own and you think what are we actually trying to what's the value of our is to correct howlers and how often have we seen them and how often are they corrected they're not that frequent and this damage has been done at the same time for me it's nowhere near worth it I mean more broadly I mean I 100 % agree with with Gregor more broadly and I you know it's amazing to think what we're now in the seventh season of VAR in the Premier League this is going to be the summer the third World Cup you know and I think in the first year or two everyone was sort of thinking well this is just teething problems it's going to get better I mean arguably it's got worse we'll talk about it forever we'll talk about it forever we'll always be saying this is this is the thing that we need to tweak but just stop it stop talking about tweaking it stop talking about clear and obvious stop talking about time limits stop talking about cricket style challenge systems none of it will work well let's talk about let's talk about some joy in actual football in a minute but just before I put the play out to join Gregor Robertson's you know cultural revolution in football Alison, scrap it or get rid of it.

12:25I've always wanted it gone. I never believed in it as a philosophical concept at the first point of it. You have always been against it. Tom, overall, you were saying you agree with Gregor. Would you keep it or get rid of it? I'd pull it right back. I don't think full abolition, but I think I'd pull it right back. Yeah, listeners, get in touch with me. Tom.Clark at thetimes.co.uk. Let's get back to joy. Let's get back to joy. What was more joyous? Dominic Sabozlai's free kick or Donna Rummur's save and the subsequent impression by Pep Guardiola on the touchline, jumping up with his grin. Both absolutely fantastic.

12:57So Bozlai's free kick is one of the best free kicks I've ever seen, isn't it? Absolutely incredible. It's one of those whether you're in the ground or at home going, bloody hell, how's he done that? And yet you sort of knew he would because he's done it before. And I think that heightens the enjoyment when you know someone's quite likely to do something amazing. The real joy of it, though, was that I thought he's going to bend this in the top corner. I don't know if you saw Joe Hart's analysis on Match Today. he talked about he could have gone round O 'Reilly and into the top corner I was like oh that's what I thought he might do I was like suppose I could score these I didn't think he'd ping it with the outside of his foot round the other way it was like one of those snooker shots where they sort of like you have to put some swazz on the ball to kind of make it go the other way it kind of goes in between things and I mean just to find that snaking path like in the middle through the wall and I know people are talking about the wall but I mean we saw with David Rea that he can go over it so I mean it didn't you know and with that free kick people were talking about maybe it'd be better if Raya didn't have the wall in the way and I mean yeah he's a genius at moving that ball out what a player as well I mean he's having a remarkable season playing out of position most of the time he could make the team of the season in two positions I know you'd like that wouldn't you that would be I think that should happen that would be fun VAR wouldn't let that happen by the way I definitely said that two weeks ago on the podcast but you know it's never mind anyway I always wondered with those free kicks Is it better when the goalkeeper stands still and makes it look like it's completely unstoppable?

14:25Or is it better to have a goalkeeper trying to get there with his hand and can't get it? What's the more lesser effect? Do you think there's a bit of goalkeeping PR to standing still? I think it's slightly performative, actually. The bemusement as if to say, there was nothing I could do about that. Because if you dive, you're like, oh, I went a bit late then. Oh, crap. I should have gone for it. As a keeper, you're like, fair enough. It's like in tennis, isn't it? When someone hits an ace and they don't even bother to try and get it. It's just too good. and they just walk to the other side yeah that adds to it's that kind of you add to it shock yeah did you see did you see the slow-mo of Sir Bozlai's foot post hitting striking yes go straight through his foot no but then his foot does a sort of a wobble like a stream flowing yeah it's like he's got limbs that no one else has got well Donnarumma definitely did show his limbs as well with that save what an amazing save that was a there was also this was also a great match for watching other players reactions to things because you had like the reactions to Subozlai's goal with Van Dijk and everyone going, what, what on earth is going on here?

15:25And then you had the same with Donnarumma with a lot of Liverpool players. Oh, bollocks, how's he got that one? That is so annoying. I mean, we've had a lot of chat about Donnarumma at the start of the season. It's actually been a really good signing for City, hasn't he? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it's not just those moments, like those clutch moments. It's also kind of these command of the box and stuff. When you're throwing, you know, crosses the line in the box, he comes out and punches everything and yeah he has been there was all the talk about what's he going to be like with his feet and it's kind of I don't know something about the way that football's evolved this season's made that less important and he has been huge for them he's a great personality as well you can tell that he's important I don't know that he's that much older necessarily but he acts like he is and he's seen it all and he's really bought into it and when things aren't I mean they've had lots of blips this season City and he's the one that gets them going again he's He's been a good addition in terms of his experience and just his aura on the pitch, I think.

16:22It's a weird one there because he was an opportunity signing. Back in August, he helped PSG win the Champions League and then suddenly Luis Enrique sort of decided, oh, he's not signing a new contract, let's move it on. And suddenly City were like, this is a good opportunity, let's sign him. Otherwise, City wouldn't have him. It's strange to think that a guy who really could be a real protagonist in the title race now and looks like probably the kind of two or three biggest players for City. You know, really only arrived because it kind of just happened. Yeah, absolutely. A massive signing for City.

16:57And Greg, talking about another massive signing for City, Mark Grahi, what a performance from him. As much as Arnie Slott thinks he should have been sent off for pulling back Mo Salah, I think he's a little toppy on that. Anyone? Alison? Orange card? It was not a clear goalscoring opportunity. Thank you very much. There we go. That's all we needed. But Grahi's performance and Kusunov next to him as well, I think look like a potential good future pairing Gregor you've had your doubts about City's defence all season and rightly so but it looks a little bit more Yeah there were a wee wobbly at the start in fairness there were a few hairy moments there was a bit one where I think it was Gay kind of tried to switch across the box and nearly kicked out for a goal kick and I don't know these are still big games for these guys to despite everything you know particularly Gay has done it's a big game it's like probably the marquee game now in the Premier League and but yeah Guardiola just talks about him having a big personality and he has got that hasn't he he just exudes calm and Kusinov's like just an extraordinary athlete I hope he grows because what you know a traumatic start he had to life in a City shirt and it was a bit of a sickener when he got that blow as well from Donnarumma but he wanted to play on you could see that Pep was funny on the touchline with that as well he was going no you're done you're done in his usual non-subtle Pep Guardiola way in terms of the game as well talking about big game players Erling Haaland for 60 minutes you're like Erling Haaland's not in this game and then that assist the like dart run and the flicked header is just a like elite footballer you will not keep me out of the game there is an art surely there must be now a new thing in football that we didn't used to have I don't think not when I was growing up that the art of being not involved and not having many touches but being it's a bit like goalkeepers who only have one save to make maybe it's a bit like that but being an outfield player who is just not involved you're not touching the ball how do you maintain that self-belief that when that moment comes that you're going to get the flick on or you're going to get the goal or you're going to make that contribution and be as sharp as you can be when you're just not involved at all it's and it happens a lot and we'll talk about Goykeres it's someone like him you look at his heat map and his touch map and they're not they're not it's not like they're involved but not not contributing but you can say, oh, well, you know, there's a lot of work going on off the ball and the odd interception and they look, you see them, you visually see them involved in the game, even if they're not getting an assist or a goal.

19:21Players like Harlan, they just look, he just looks like he's lumbering around slightly in a different dimension to everybody else. It's just not working for him. And yet they're so well coached and presumably they talk a lot to their coaching staff about that role of not being involved, of being able to switch it on at the crucial second. Yeah, he's kind of unique in that though, still to the extent to which he does nothing. And then comes to like, there is also some part of it's just like, football's mad again. Like it was a deflected cross into the box that he's just kind of on the move and managed to get it to first.

20:01And was that like a big moment from a big game player? I'm not sure. It was just like a deflected cross into the box and he's a big guy and he flicked it in. I'm not having that. I think Silva's a big game player and a big someone who was like just threw out the game and he made that run he anticipated it I would actually say Silva was more of the big game player in this game I think the skill to move back though to be moving in that direction that's what I meant just the little dark run and then actually to cushion that header with the weight to make sure it's not heavy enough the keeper can get it and have the exact right angle it was like a number 10 playing a reverse three ball but he's doing it in the air I don't think there's many centre-fours in the league who could do that in terms of City overall then And this game, as you say, it was an odd game for a lot.

20:42It was, you know, the periods in the first half where we're going, this is great fun. And then I was actually, this is a bit crap, actually. This is a bit messy and a bit scrappy. Panics in the office as ever when you've pinned everything on a big game and it's nil-nil with 60 minutes. You're like, oh, crikey, how do we sell this one? Thankfully, the end delivered. But are we getting a bit swept up with City still in the title race, 93rd minute, you know, because Liverpool could have won this game. Liverpool were on top for large periods, I thought. What do we think about the overall state of this game and what it says for the rest of the season?

21:09I think it's interesting the way City approach this as well. Semenyo and Nico O 'Reilly, although they're nominally wide players, just drift into all the pockets. And it's like they found a new way of flooding the middle of the pitch now. Obviously, the full-backs off of the wood, they come inside, and you've got Silva, Semenyo, O 'Reilly, Roddy backing it up, Marmoush kind of floats. So they managed to get in lots of situations where it was those little pockets in front of Liverpool's back four, but never really there was one little through ball for Haaland that he didn't was kind of thwarted by Alisson just that final bit they're still not really there's a lot of good playing a lot of sort of you know tippy tappy player in the box but not really managing to find a breakthrough so or to get Haaland into the game that much so like well City looked really good in spells they're still not really that cutting edge I see a lot of the time unless a menu or someone's going to do something like a one off moment and Liverpool Liverpool came back into the game strongly in the second half.

22:11And you're right. They could have won the game. And it also probably should have been 1-0 without a bit of a rush of blood from Alisson for the penalty. It was interesting afterwards, Bernardo Silva wasn't saying that we felt if we lost this one, the title race was done. You know, that he felt the nine points would be too much to claw back. I still think Arsenal are in a really commanding position. But I think you get to this situation in the league where it almost becomes round by round. you know and City won this round you know going away to Liverpool and winning Arsenal winning at home to Sunderland net they won this round and you've got to start City have probably got to win you know three or four more rounds haven't they to basically put the heat really on and I mean this week now they're going home against Fulham on Wednesday they play before Arsenal go away to Brentford and suddenly those little intricacies of the timing of the schedule it all matters you know if they can reduce it to three points and Arsenal have got to go to Brentford and then Arsenal have got to go to Spurs at the weekend just suddenly there's a little bit more friction than there was before Alison Alison I'm not actually convinced.

23:08No, no, no, no. I would not write City off at all. I mean, Pep Guardiola's reaction to suggestions that the title race might be close to being over show that he's got the hunger for it, I think. Six points is nothing, actually, when you're talking about a team that knows how to win it and you're talking about a team that doesn't know how to win it. Well, surely you could call us a team that knows how to win it anymore. City. oh you don't believe in the innate no the innate character of a club no it's the players on the pitch and there's only a few of them left very interesting well let's bring in Arsenal as Tom said yeah 3-0 win against Sunderland fairly straightforward I wanted to just mention Vitor Jokerez criticised by basically every pundit and journalist going so far for his performances this season but 6 goals in the last 8 games that takes him to 13 in 36 in all competitions this season is this just a bit of good rotation now for Arteta now that he's got Havertz and Jesus back as well is Jokic starting to find his feet what do we think this is or am I getting carried away again Gregor's not having it yeah I mean again like I think he's coming on when games are a bit more open perhaps and his first goal was Bryce Crawford it's the kind of one you've seen him hit wide before or loose touch and slipped over and hooked it in you've seen them not go in and the last one was a long bust and run that went forward.

24:36I just think like these sort of things will balance out over the course of a season. He's had a lot of chances like these. A lot of chances in games, really, in a lot of games. I'm still not convinced about him being the guy for the same reason we've just discussed, really, but it's even more sort of striking, his involvement in open play is just almost... I mean, if you look at his league goals, he scored against Leeds, Forrest, Burnley, Everton, Leeds again and Sunderland I mean if you're being generous you could say that Arsenal had problems against these teams that's part of the narrative isn't it like this is what you're saying for they needed someone to put those teams away but you know it's an expensive someone who enjoys playing against teams like that I mean that's his background isn't it playing against the weaker teams championship type of clubs we have a more rugged approach to life potentially in terms of what his past career in terms of also how those games pan out finishing the games like that I know you're saying it's easy to come off the bench of where the game's done it's not easy it's still only 1-0 against Sunderland he's come on and scored two goals and we're all going comfortable 3-0 win for Arsenal at home against Sunderland as Tom says a lot of the last season they might have drawn that one all and be going this is Arsenal's Achilles heel they can't get over the line etc etc it's just a take to say that you finally go out and sign a number 9 and you can be content with the fact that he's going to be the flat track bully who scores in the games that you feel like you should win anyway and maybe not be the guy that actually takes them.

26:06But then is this not the point of Arsenal's squad? As we say, you know, we talk about this a lot, that maybe like team for team, starting 11, other teams can match them, but it's their squad. And so maybe you have Havertz play the leading man in the big games against Tottenham or other teams. It might work out that way. I'm just saying it's totally like, it's just a nonsense if you're seeing it. That was like by design. It might have been, you never know. Oh, I think there will be, if Arsenal win the title, I think there's an academic paper to be written on how they won the title because of Goikarez there you go well they Alison do you know what do you know what Alison's sold I'll have a thousand words for it if Arsenal win the title and why it was all down to Victor Goikarez Arsenal fans get in touch with me with your thoughts on your new striker tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk Aston Villa in third could only draw with Bournemouth slightly thanks to in fact completely thanks to some of the worst defending I've seen in the Premier League in a long time from Luca Dina.

27:03Gregor, I don't think I've ever said this phrase on this podcast because I really don't want to. No one ever likes it. But this was the first time I've ever watched a Premier League game and gone, I could have done better than that. Genuinely outrageous. Have you got any defence from the left-backs union? Explain it to me. How does he kind of be tracking side-on, just get span inside, watch the player go past him and then throw his arms up in the air when they score? Yeah, there's not much defence. I mean, it's all about your angles, right? So he's got to... I know, that's what I'm saying. Explain it to me.

27:32How has this happened? He's either got his angles drastically wrong or he felt that someone was going to be covering on his inside. Like maybe that was a plan before the game. Maybe that was like, as I say, a midfielder shuffles across or whatever. But it just obviously looked like even he turned around and realised there was no one there that that's what his hands were up for. Like, well, there shouldn't be someone covering there. It was awful, yeah. It was really embarrassing. But like, you can actually get your angles just like fractionally wrong and that way and being balanced like that. But I think it would have almost been better if he'd like span and fell over or something.

28:06You know what I mean? Like he just kind of lollops round. It was like a lorry turning. It was absolutely shocking. I'm not having it. Anyway, the other thing to mention from this game, a great performance again from Alex Scott in Bournemouth's midfield. And I wanted to just bring in Everton's win at Fulham because in the game today for the times, both writers at these two games talking about players like Scott, James Garner, Dewsbury Hall, some of these players in midfield who were in the backup camp to go to the World Cup. Gregor, you're shaking your head already before I even asked the question.

28:34Not having any of the three of them on the plane? No. No? No, I really like, in particular, Alex Scott. And Dewsbury Hall have been brilliant. Absolutely outstanding. Great signing. But I think it's too late for them. And particularly, I would add, because of Kobe Mino's re-emergence. So, I think... Ooh, sounds awfully like big club bias there, Gregor. Well, he's also played and he's also been there and done it. he has the caps he's been at a major tournament and he's playing really well so I don't think it's a big club bias I think I think I think Alex Scott could be at that level one day he's obviously in two goals thinking isn't he because he's he's picked him already so he didn't play either did he yeah Meno's more the profile isn't he as well that England are lacking like if I think about those kind of players you mentioned he's more the one in kind of the base where you might think there's a there's more vacancy than the further forward yeah I just think it's an interesting thing we're heading towards this World Cup, we've kind of got this Tuchel situation where we're like, oh, well, Anderson and Rice locked in, blah, blah, blah.

29:34But there's a whole squad to fill. But what about you, Tom? Do you think any of those players could break in behind Kobe Maynou if we're saying Maynou's the next one? I don't think so. I sort of agree with Gregor. I don't, I think it feels too late, you know, I mean, all across the squad, I think the idea that anyone now getting in who hasn't already sort of, you know, made significant contribution on the Tuchel, I just don't, I don't see Tuchel as the kind of coach who is going to think, okay, you played, you know, two, a couple of months of good football and you go straight in. I think he wants people who are really embedded in the kind of the culture and the system.

30:04And I don't see... Could be Meynou hasn't played any football, for goodness sake. Although it looks like he's going to play now 16 games all 90 minutes all the way to the end of the season. Yes, make up for it. I was discussing this with Ian Whittle before he wrote his piece on the Times website this weekend about Meynou. He's going to go to the World Cup, if he goes, as like the perfect level of fitness, isn't he? He's going to have played like half an English football season, played every minute as their team charges towards the top of the table. It's going to be the perfect level of fitness of any player at this World Cup.

30:32Anyway, we'll talk about... You have sole responsibility for pressing in the US. Yeah, exactly. In the last 20 minutes. In the last 20 minutes. And any Bournemouth player won't be in that space because they work so hard. All Bournemouth players will probably be exhausted by the time of the World Cup. As I always say, listeners get in touch with me if you disagree with any of the points the guys have made. As I say, a big win for Everton at Fulham. We're going to talk about Kobe Mane and Manchester United after the break. just before the break. Speaking of England, it was great to see Cole Palmer back in the goals.

30:59Another hat-trick for him. I've got to say, though, I think as much as he scored a hat-trick, two of them penalties, the best thing he did was juggling the ball off the pitch in his big oversized coat in the rain. He just looked like a lad going down to play a knock-about game with his pals. I wanted to complete the full words of the pitch though. That would have been great. I think he could have. Yeah, definitely. Have you ever seen there's an amazing video on England's football team social media account of Phil Foden doing it all the way from the dressing room, training room, to the pitch and they do it on they're filming him and they're going go on Phil do it all the way and the players are walking past him and they're like the cameraman's like do you reckon he can do it and Ferdinand's just like all the way they know what they do in the players there like the idea is that they're sort of you know are just having fun in their own little world but they know the cameras are on them don't they of course they know it's going to be clips up all content performers all the time and Cole Palmer is definitely one of them so great to see him back on the pitch doing what he does best loads more still to talk about in part two we're going to mention Brighton so let's talk briefly about James Milner he didn't play at the weekend but he is closing in on Gareth Barry's Premier League appearance record so a quiz question to take us into the break how many teammates has Milner had in his career find out after the break

32:18welcome back to the game football podcast from the times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson and Tom all up with me. You didn't even get anywhere near the correct answer to this, That was quite close. Well, you two had a guess and then Tom said he didn't care so we ended up with the correct answer being 242. That's how many teammates. To be fair, I was being ridiculed for my answer so I was backing into a corner. You went into your shell of it when producer Neil told you off for your bad maths. That's what it was. Yeah, that's true. I got defensive. Yeah, exactly.

32:46Yeah, full 242 for the rest of the show and here they are. No, I'm joking. but speaking of James Milner listeners make sure you go and read Paul Joyce's excellent piece on the Times website we published it on Friday speaking to those who know Milner best as he heads towards this record of Gareth Barry's it includes exclusive insights from Jürgen Klopp who had this to say just reading this quote he said nothing absolutely nothing would have happened at Liverpool in my time without James Milner that is 100 % true nothing it was an honour that I covered a few yards with Milner on his journey I mean it the honour was mine I don't think the record will happen again he is the last dinosaur to do that some brilliant brilliant insights from all the people that have known Milner throughout his career go and check it out on the Times website now as I say Milner's Brighton side losing 1-0 against Crystal Palace in the weirdest derby in football Tom Allnutt you were there a strange game this one slightly came to life in the second half and a really important win for Crystal Palace we're going to talk about Brighton in a minute but a good a big win for Palace getting this over the line yeah it's a good game as someone who I don't know if I've covered the M23 derby before A23 derby is it A23 because the M23 doesn't actually connect them oh right there's a there's a seasoned pro in terms of football's weirdest derby so it's not a mistake it's just a because I wrote M23 people call it the M23 that's fine I don't need to be right they shouldn't call it the M23 Alison you could be a Times like reader and write in and go excuse me actually Tom you've got this wrong although technically you've just done it on this podcast anyway Tom the football match?

34:15It was a good match. I felt like the atmosphere was good. You know, it was a really, it started well. There wasn't much of a pattern to it, like a lot of derbies. But it was high stakes, wasn't it? In a weird sort of way, because both of these teams are sort of hovering, well, like somewhere between eight and 10 points above the relegation zone. Probably nobody thinks they're actually going to go in the bottom three, but it's that kind of situation where both are looking to just put some extra distance. But more than that, both teams came in, you know, with, I think it was one win in 12 for Brighton now, and Palace were something like nine without a win.

34:45And it really felt basically that whoever won the match was going to feel kind of revitalized and unified and whoever lost the game was going to be sort of booing the manager and feeling like you needed major surgery. And that was sort of what happened at the end because, you know, suddenly Herzler was, you know, there were chants you getting sacked in the morning from the Bryan fans. In the last kind of 10 minutes, they were saying, you don't know what you're doing. When he walked on the pitch, he was being booed. When he walked off the pitch, he was being booed. when Alison said that wherever I go there are boos because I cover spurs regularly and after the match I was saying I felt like I could really write that story you know the language really just came to me perfectly because I've written this so many times we were trying spurs synonyms for booing go on how many have you got well also you've got taunts you know geos in the firing line heckles heckles bit old school we were chatting about this after the game wasn't it Tom and you were like the Tom Ornott boo-ometer must be quite a powerful tool when it comes to match reporting.

35:42You know, you've seen it so much. He's got this rucksack. Yeah, he gets it out. You know, like the kind of measure sound in the stadium. Tom plonks it on the desk next to his laptop and goes, oh, that's pretty impressive actually, Brighton. You definitely get extra points for booing before the final whistle. You know, Spurs fans have booed after about 12 minutes in a game this season. You know, that is, that's really extreme. So Brighton's small fry, actually, is what you're saying. Booing out full time after losing to Palace. Yeah, that's nice. Should they be booing? Yeah, that's the real question.

36:11I mean, I think if you look where Brighton are in the league, you know, they're 13th? 14th. They're 14th, 31 points. So eight above West Ham, obviously in the 18th. So in the relegation place. And I think it's one of those where you look from the outside and you think, well, you know, they're not in danger of getting relegation. They finished eighth last season under Herzler. It's a bad run, but ultimately they're sitting at the lower end of the bracket you would probably expect Brighton to be in. That said, they're not creating chances. They're not scoring goals particularly. They are struggling against teams you'd expect them to beat.

36:46They've only beaten Burnley at home in the last about three or four months. I tend to think sometimes we sort of think these mid-table teams are just sort of grin and bear it. But actually when you're watching underwhelming performances and the results are bad and you're going towards a relegation zone, okay, booing is booing. But I can see why Brighton fans are unhappy. And there really wasn't much in this game for them. You know, Palace scored 61st minutes, Sarr scored. And, you know, the last half an hour, I can't really remember a chance. There was that chance. I forget who was clean through, but Henderson made a decent save.

37:19Yeah, and Glasner was generous enough after the match to kind of say it was one of those games, small margins, and it went our way. But I think Palace with a better side. I just think Brighton have lost a bit of edge in the final third. You know, they've still got good players in midfield. They build the play nicely. But who is actually going to kind of put the ball in the net, create that chance? But Tom is not the player he was a couple of seasons ago before the injury. They're relying on Ruter, Welbeck, a bit in and out. I just think you look at their team and you compare it to the other sides and that kind of area of the table and the attacking resources they have.

37:51I think Brian are looking a bit short at the moment. And I like Herzlom. You know, he has that kind of bravado about him, that self-belief. And in the press conference afterwards, you know, he really came out firing. And, you know, he's only 32. And he said it was the hardest moment of his coaching career so far. And, you know, it's obviously been a fairly short coaching career. But still, I like him. I think he's got something. But the fans, you know, this has been there for a while. I think we said about a month or so ago that the fans aren't quite as invested in Herzl, I don't think, as they were in De Zerbe, for example.

38:20Is this a case of the slightly modern, spoiled football fan? And I'm not just talking about Brighton fans here. This applies to a lot. But, you know, you talked about them finishing eighth last season. Brighton generally often get the catchphrase on this podcast of, oh, well done, Brighton. You know, they've done so well. can they not have a season where they finish 14th or 13th? Is that not allowed anymore? Can you have that? And Herzl then goes again and they maybe sign a better attacking player? Well, it's not tolerated anymore. That's the point really. It should be allowed but it's not tolerated.

38:49Do you think it would be more tolerable if they were playing with more panache? They're a bit flat, aren't they? I mean, do you feel they would have booed if it had been 3-2 and a couple of good saves that denied them an equaliser? Probably not. No, probably not. I think the football itself is a big part of the problem. The results are the results, but I think it's also the way that they're playing at the moment. And to be fair to Brighton, and the previous managers, they have played great football. They have always been a really good team to watch. You go and watch Brighton, you think this is a really clever team.

39:16The way they play, the way they pass, they're always out thinking their opponents. This one looks a bit, they look a bit flat. I agree with that, it's a good word. Part of it, I mean, Johnny wrote the piece at the weekend saying Arnie Schlott's biggest problem was he's not Jurgen Klopp. part of it is that Hürsler is not the Zerbe like he was the football was thrilling stuff and I've said it many times he actually won more points in his first 50 games than the Zerbe but that didn't matter for the fans I also think there's something about the way that Brighton spent that 200 million quid a couple of summers ago like I don't think actually Brighton being lauded rightfully for years and years and years I don't think many of them have been hits and I think there'll be some that have been that may still develop into I think like Mimta is a great player but he's keeping him fit on the pitch and sort of productive has been a bit of a challenge Buter, I'm not sure Wiefer, Grude has just gone on loan Caddy Ugly I like but he obviously had a big injury for the first season that's not been a great success they had so much cash and they had to spend it because of the three year rolling cycle and I'm not sure they've spent it that well but it's hard isn't it it's hard to keep recycling a team we know we've spoken about how brilliant Brighton have been for the last 10 years but how do you keep on finding the next Caicedo the next McAllister eventually like those percentages for signings which are you know you sign one good signing in five whatever that eventually does hit you even if you're Brighton and you've got good scouting and also like the broader point here is that Brighton used to be the only club who sort of did this 10 years ago but now Palace are good at scouting you know Brentford are good at scouting Bournemouth are good at scouting so all those kind of like you know mid-table progressive teams are now also just as clever as Brighton are.

41:01You know, they're fishing in the same market. They also have money to spend. Chelsea are blowing most of them out of the market. Even the big teams now, even the big teams are looking at teenagers, you know, like Brighton used to from South America. You know, so that market is so much harder now to kind of stand out in. I think that's also maybe part of the problem. Is it a bit mean to say, because it's quite tough and there's quite a few, more than you'd like at one time, players playing slightly below par or not fulfilling what they promised to give us. maybe at the end of last season, the start of this season, that Herzler doesn't have the breadth of experience because he is only 32.

41:35Maybe it's fun when you're 32 to come into a team that's been in Europe and breaking records and playing fun football. But when it gets serious, what really has he got to draw upon to steady the ship? I don't know. I'm just asking the question whether... there was a lot made of the fact oh my god he's 31 when he was appointed but maybe that is too young if things are difficult in press conferences and interviews and stuff he comes across well to answer that challenge that idea not particularly to us but I can see him being pretty spiky and like there was no you know in those early sort of weeks and months of his time at Brighton there was like you know that was the whole narrative and the conversation how he's young and younger than some of his players like a lot younger than James Milner but there was no question about him kind of like having the authority and the sort of command of the room and stuff I think it maybe even goes over goes a little bit further I think he's a bit spiky maybe rubs a few people up the wrong way but I think he inherited St.

42:44Paulie when they were in a relegation battle and pulled them clear like he has Alisson's right he's young and he's not been manager for long but he has had some experience of like I think he's got big club energy like I do I know he's 32 but if you forgot about that he has a certain presence about him he has that sort of Bayern Munich thing where he's like I came through Bayern I know what it's like to be a big club and he projects that I don't see the age thing but is he likable? but people say sometimes you talk to people around Bayern they say maybe he's a little bit heavy a bit serious maybe that's that thing where when you're inexperienced you slightly kind of go too hard on certain things and maybe as you get older you learn to be a bit more relaxed and to give a bit more of a lighter touch to the players And in this kind of situation, I think his instinct will be to double down on the work and to do more video analysis when actually sometimes maybe to step back.

43:32Very interesting. Yeah, exactly. Brighton fans get in touch with me. Alison and the other dugout though, Oliver Glasner, your pal, your pastry pal, proving you right with your Sunday Times column. You went before this game. Yes, I did. And said all the fools out there doubting Oli Glasner. And it's a big call because he was on a stinking run. Absolutely stinking run. But he proved you right with this win. and your point being, don't discount him out for any of the big jobs that might be going this summer. I've just been surprised that he is starting to be written. He was, after the FA Cup win, it was like Oliver Glasner, you know, superhuman, amazing, what a coach, fantastic.

44:11The narrative was brilliant. There he was with a squad that cost a fraction of what Man United's squad cost, but he was playing 3-4-3 and making them a delight to watch and Ruben Amarin was doing similar with a much more expensive squad and they're 3-4-3 and didn't suit them. And you kind of think, well, who's the cleverer coach here? Who should be at a big club? And I think he was even linked for that reason to Old Trafford. But because of what's unfolded, demotion to the Conference League, the selling of Eze and Guy and him saying the squad have been abandoned by the hierarchy and announcing that he will not be renewing his contract come the summer, that everyone's flipped and said, oh, well, he won't get a good job now.

44:58Oh, I want to be scared of Oliver Glasner. Oh, he's a bit difficult. Fell out with hierarchies before. I think that's just easy to say without really analysing it. He's not really fallen out with hierarchies. What he's done is been passionate about giving the best possible platform to the squad that he's got. and when he delivers trophies that these in a succession of clubs, Wolfsburg, Frankfurt, Crystal Palace, who do not traditionally win silverware, when he gets it for them, he expects to get something back. He gets some financial backing, some support, some idea of expansion, of building upon glory.

45:36And I don't think that's a bad thing. If I was appointing a manager and I was a relatively board member to a big club, I would like a manager with those values. And so I still and actually the fact that he's probably going to almost certainly avoid getting into a relegation battle with all the things I've just listed. And, you know, Steve Parrish, I don't agree with a lot of what he's done, but he's not a fool. He knows a good manager when he sees one. and the reason they've kept Glasner and they haven't fallen out over that outburst is because he knows of all the options open to Crystal Palace now, the best option is you keep Glasner in situ because he will stop them getting into a relegation battle and, you know, they usually finish 12th, they're probably going to finish 12th.

46:23It's fine. He's a thoroughly nice bloke. When you're in the room with him, you realise, as someone who covers Palace at a distance mostly, you sort of get this thing about Glasner, oh, he's ultra ambitious, he's difficult, he's being, you know, arrogant, and we've had the last two or three months. You get in the room with him in a press conference, you think, this guy's really nice, really sweet, like, lovely sort of manner about him. And you think, like, I mean, he was talking about doing Taco Tuesday with the players this week, you know, and playing, like, games, you know, where they're playing against the kids.

46:51And I was like, this guy's not difficult. He's a lovely bloke. Spot the guy with a couple of kids in the press conference. Tom's like, Taco Tuesday, can we come? I think it's fine to be ambitious. And also, like, the best managers are. look at all the best managers around Europe they're all difficult they all want they all demand things they want stuff from the board and in a way I'm not sure that shows he's not a big club manager I think it probably shows he is another managerial situation I wanted to bring in is Eddie Howe at Newcastle and it's time for the catchphrase of the season well done Keith Andrews and Brentford another amazing win but it's Howe and Newcastle that became the story of this game a really fascinating scenario is I think playing out at Newcastle this season with Eddie Howe and this bizarre season they're having doing okay in the Champions League better than they did last time but he's under pressure with fans booing him questioning whether he's right for the job some quotes coming out of his press conference today just before we came on to record this show saying there's no doubt in my mind that I'm the right man that's why I'm sat here if there was any doubt then I wouldn't be because I wouldn't be because the club's the most important thing I'd never put myself before the club as long as I feel that in my heart and in my spirit then my desire and my motivation levels are as high as they've ever been I'll fight every day to my maximum for this club when man's using the word fight Like, fight.

48:01It's never a great sign, is it, Alison? You've covered millions of press conferences in your time. The tone of that is kind of embattled. And that's not quite what you want when you're managing a big club like Newcastle. The problem is, it's been like that all season. I mean, the blips have been the good news. I mean, they started out with this inability to win away from home and looking really inept away from home. And then when the home form, which is always what's buoyed the club, is because it's got a great atmosphere. St. James' Park when that's not going well as well and you've got the fans turning.

48:36It's a progression from how the season started and so it all began with the Isaac drama and that's not, that was not anything to do with Eddie Howe. It really wasn't. But he's one of those managers who always maybe he's just not political enough. He takes it all on him. He takes everything on him. And another manager might have said, how am I supposed to integrate two new strikers? I didn't know when I was going to get them. And they weren't fitting the model anyway. And they were all a bit last minute. I'm doing my best. But he makes it all about him. And he looks now like a manager who's way down.

49:18That doesn't exude the right energy for the squad at all. But I am slightly surprised that the fans are turning. It's a theme of the show, isn't it? Yeah, but that's what I mean. We talked about Brighton in 14th and I said the question, can Brighton not finish 14th? And that'd be okay. Newcastle in 12th. Yes, they've still got the Champions League and Carabaug, but Newcastle probably can't finish 12th, can they? And Eddie Howe stays in a job. What do we think? It'd be a touch and go. I think he could. I think he could if they were, if they had a successful season in the Champions League and like he panned out and as Alison sort of outlined there, you looked at the context and like I've spent a lot of the season saying you know there's this whole idea that you know they're not equipped to go in all the competitions I kind of feel like the squad should be on paper like when you think that they spent the money on Alanga and Wolt Mada on Bissa like but they've not delivered not really like Wolt Mada scored goals when he first got in the team but he actually Well Martin Hardy wrote this piece didn't he before this game talking about spending all these hundreds of millions of pounds on a load of forwards that just aren't delivering Lange looked like a great fit for them.

50:29I mean, that speed and dynamism and direct sort of energy, that's what Newcastle are. You think that fits well, but it's not really happened for them. And now they're actually, they've suffered a few injuries as well. They didn't have Char, Lovamento, Joe Ellington, even Lewis Miley's been feeling this in the right back, Anthony Gordon, got a hamstring. So when that starts to build up on you as well, then you're in trouble. But I think the reason Hedy Howe's saying this is all me now is that like ultimately as a manager it does come to a point where none of that matters you've got to find a way to get a result and he's not doing it isn't this just a part of this kind of new era though as well I mean it feels like Man Utd finishing 16th last season Spurs finishing 17th Spurs 15th or something in the league this season Newcastle 12th all these kind of clubs that we you know expected to be in the top 8 before if you you know combine the fact that all those middle teams are now better with the fact that any European team now has to play a lot of games and you're basically going up against sides like Fulham and Man United this season who don't have any midweek football, in my opinion, it becomes much less common that you're going to have these big clubs and inverted commas lurking around the middle of the table every so often.

51:41That's just going to happen, isn't it? They're six points behind Liverpool. Yeah. In 12th, yeah. Brighton are eight points behind Liverpool. It's a strange old table. Maybe if they all finish in that middle bracket, they all swap managers. so you either get Europe or if you don't you all swap managers so we could have Glasner to Newcastle Howe to Tottenham Frank to Palace Random draw Yeah That'd be alright I reckon that could work I don't see any reason why that couldn't work but yeah Newcastle fans do get in touch with me tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk Tom you mentioned those two teams there Manchester United and Tottenham and the strange seasons they had last season Tottenham having a difficult season this season but Manchester United Gregor in fourth six points behind Manchester City a couple of weeks ago you said I think this is a bit crazy but Man Utd might finish second doesn't look crazy anymore a fourth win for Michael Carrick the same formation very similar team 2-0 at home at Old Trafford this is the dream for Manchester United fans that they've been missing for so long yeah I mean I watched this game and they they just look like a team that are enjoying themselves again they do it really is as simple as that I would argue it's the biggest contrast mid-season I've ever seen at a club in terms of Really?

52:53The players, the difference in the players. As in after a managerial change? Yeah, yeah. Before and after, just in the demeanour. I suppose the Solskjaer would probably be the main contender. No, I think it's even greater than that. It's palpable. It's like you're watching it and I'm enjoying them being happy. I'm enjoying them being happy. That's how happy they are. They're so happy. They're so happy that that is the reason. But I mean, there is a point as well, Gregor, I mentioned it there, you know, same formation, all the players in the right places. we can't talk about Reuben Amarim again because we always end up doing it but for Michael Carrick to that joy there's also a simplicity to this as well isn't there?

53:31That was clear from the start I mean look you can overplay that a bit too I mean like Luke Shaw's playing like a left winger so there's a lot of times where there's still a balancing off like if Diego Dallot will tuck in or if he goes wide Luke Shaw will tuck in or like they've got ways of balancing off and making sure they've always got protection at the back and Lissandro Martini having him fit as well steps back in then he can play those Diags that really like stretch and play but the main thing for me is just seeing Bruno Fernandes in the number 10 someone like Kobe Mino and actually Casemiro now too who like step forward and link with them or just take that one extra touch or open up the body and play that ball into his feet into those little pockets of space and having players like Cunha and Mbemo ready to sort of react from that just transformed the team they look dangerous now when they have the ball in those middle areas of the pitch and also Kunia and Ahmad when they're running at players as well are a real threat so yeah all of a sudden you can see you look at it and you think it wouldn't take much for it if Harry Maguire was injured again or Martinez was or maybe even Shaw or maybe even one of the midfielders but this team in its place right now yeah I stand by it they could still easily finish second I mean it's good coaching as well I think it's easy to kind of yeah sort of say oh look they're just kind of enjoying themselves and the Amrims thing factor is the main thing here he's gone everyone's just sort of had a weight lifted off them Carrick's just doing the obvious thing anyone could do but I mean remember Fletcher played you know four at the back and they drew away at Burnley and lost at Brighton so I mean you know it wasn't just the change that was it you know I think Carrick's doing some good work I mean the set piece goal was really well worked like you can see the players are they know what they're doing suddenly it's not just a kind of like a go and have fun guys there is a plan there and I think Carrick's doing a really good job yeah a man in the other dugout though Thomas Frank another difficult game for him made more difficult from Cristiano Romero's red card early on it's just nothing can come right for him can it Tom in terms of the performances this season and also Alisson Tom wasn't even there for this one and it still didn't go that well for them but Alisson wasn't there so that's the problem yeah that's true that's true that's where I got it wrong with the match list Newcastle and Arsenal at home then Fulham away Palace home Liverpool away where are we at with Thomas Frank do we think we carry on until they really are in a relegation battle because it's not far away now I think there are two things that will put Frank into the red zone as it were as opposed to the orange zone I think one is the toxicity of the fans which we have seen and I think two home games we'll see it again this week we'll see how that plays out and I think the other thing is the relegations zone getting closer I think those are the two things that could could push him over the edge before the summer I think this was always going to be a difficult run for Spurs City United Newcastle Arsenal there were nine points above the bottom three probably nobody thought that gap was going to get bigger during this period but six points after West Ham have won suddenly feels a lot smaller right and Romero's not helping you know that's the thing isn't it I mean you know he's banned from I think is it four now in the ball games and in a way maybe the team is kind of better off without that noise at the moment without that distraction because it's one thing to kind of call out the board he's not banned from tweeting though no Instagram actually yeah it's one thing to kind of call out the board off the pitch but you know the performances from him this season have been really up and down he's scored some really important goals but and he's your captain as well he's not just the most mouthy on Instagram he's also the captain yeah it's a problem and it's a problem for Frank because you know he's damned if he does and damned if He doesn't, isn't he?

57:12You know, his authority is undermined with every, I think every match that Romero continues to play as captain. But equally, if you stretch Romero the captaincy right now, then you're losing, you know, the backing that you possibly have of one of your best players. And Romero is really respected in the Tottenham dressing room. That's a big problem. You know, the players are behind him and I think it would be a huge risk. Essentially, Romero is more important to Tottenham right now than Frank in a way. He's more powerful than Frank. And that's the problem I think that Frank has with it. Really interesting.

57:41as you say Tottenham in 15th 29 points Leeds as well they're another reason as well I'm sure Tottenham fans wouldn't have said after 25 games we'll have the same number of points as Leeds United near the bottom with all the respect to Leeds because they've been fantastic of late a big win against Nottingham Forest Gregor on Friday night you've been saying for a while Sean Dyche Nottingham Forest no worries no worries at all they're only three points ahead of West Ham now after West Ham beat Burnley little bit nervy they were really bad weren't they yeah yeah no there's a bit of a worry now I mean I think Forrester another team where there's a few areas of the pitch where there's kind of a real drop off and Murillo's injured Morata steps in and he just looks like a doorman or something he can't turn around quick enough for the Premier League Zach Abbott is getting thrown in it right back and he's young and it's like he's a good defender but there's a drop off again from Necco Williams or I9 if he's playing on the left in this game but even more than that they're not really kind of linking up in the way they seem Forrest at their best and actually have done on their diet early in the season going forward as well so like part of it was the goals but it's the you know the goals were terrible from Forrest's point of view one long ball great long ball by Ilya Gruyov and for Bogle for his run but he just ran across the whole defence and no one tracked him good finish and then just a simple you know Calvert-Lewins was a simple crossing in the box as well yeah they're they're in trouble now but the reason they're really in trouble is because West Ham yeah three wins in four and that only defeat was the comeback against by Chelsea at Stamford Bridge I mean it would probably sum up this crazy season wouldn't it if Nuno Espirito Santo as West Ham manager relegated Nottingham Forest would you imagine that at the start of the season if we'd said that's how the season ends with Nuno as West Ham manager sending Sean Dyche's Nottingham Forest down PS Ange Postacoglu had a crack at Nottingham Forest in the middle I would hate to see it but the owner would kind of deserve it yeah they're going to win the Europa League and go down I think now that really would be crackers anyway we'll have plenty more to discuss on Thursday's show but we'll leave it there Alison Rudd, Gregor Robertson and Tom Olmott thank you very much for joining me as I say loads more midweek action in the Premier League and we'll be discussing that on Thursday we'll see you then