Villa, Arsenal and Spygate

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Aston Villa are Europa League champions, ending a 30-year wait for a trophy and 44 years since they won the European Cup. On today's show, we'll discuss a commanding win for Villa and Unai Emery, the manager who loves the Europa League. We'll also talk Spygate and Southampton's expulsion from the Championship playoff final, Get more reaction to Arsenal's title win and Pep Guardiola's exit and look at the final day of the Premier League season. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd, the former Ireland Millwall and Aston Villa striker Tony Cascarino, and the football reporter and data journalist of the year Hamza Khaliq Lunat.

0:47Team, welcome. We're ready, excited. What a week, eh? What a week. Crazy week. Such a busy week. We had to cram in an extra show yesterday because I was like thinking, if we don't do an extra show on Arsenal and Pep Guardiola, poor old Aston Villa are going to get about five minutes at the end of Thursday's show. So thankfully, listeners, in case you missed it, we did an extra show with Gary Jacob and Matt Lawton on Manchester City and Pep Guardiola and Arsenal. That's already in the feed, which means now we can talk about Aston Villa and their brilliant Europa League triumph. Tony, I've come to you, as I mentioned in that intro there, one of your former clubs.

1:21We've talked so much in recent years about Villa being a big club and their aspirations for being right near the top of the Premier League table. But winning this trophy is a huge moment, isn't it? Absolutely, yeah. I mean, it was probably the biggest heartbreak I had at a football club leaving. But I loved it there. The fans were the nicest fans I'd ever played for. Really? It was when you were, like, some of the clubs I played was quite obvious. If you weren't doing well, you'd get pelters. Yeah. But I can always remember, it's like people would say, I'm walking in because you get to the bus, you get to Villa Park.

1:51and as you got off the bus, you'd be like, come on, Tony, keep going. Come on, you're willing, you're on. I've got that all the time. And I used to think, they're so nice, these supporters. I mean, I'm sure people say today they might be a bit different. Well, I mean, I'm sure there's probably some Birmingham fans out there and maybe Wolves and West Brom fans who aren't as happy. But in this quite divisive season in terms of football support and who's won what and how we feel about the modern game, Alison, we can generally all get behind this Aston Villa triumph, can't we? And another Europa League title for Unai Emery.

2:20Yeah, well, see, I mean, there are no teams with Villa in the name left, so I don't know where he goes from here. I was going to say, it's a remarkable fun, isn't it, the Villa Real and Sevilla thing? Villa, Villa, Villa, Villa. I mean, if you look at the comments under the match report in the Times, it's like, you know, I'm a Birmingham fan, but well done, Villa. And I'm a West Bromwich fan, but well done, Villa. So it is true that it's very hard to... reasons why I think we're all invested in a team that waits, it's a big club but has to wait so long for some glory, there's something in that isn't there and the fact that Unai Emery I think is a hugely respected coach and it's very hard to dislike him or find him objectionable in any way at all, there's the fun element of that he's so successful in this competition that when something's going well you want it to keep going well, like you don't want the spell to be broken, of course wins with a team with Villa in the title, it's not going to go wrong this time, is it?

3:12We don't want that to happen either. And also, as the game was about, because it's quite a cagey game to start with, and it seemed to me really obvious the way Villa were going to win it was through beauty. And if a team wins through three very beautiful goals and sets up what could have been a couple of more very beautiful goals. It's just so, it's just arresting. You just sort of, you love them for it. It was just characters as well. Everyone loves John McGinn and he's been with them through the bad times and the good times. I'm trying to think of a reason why a neutral wouldn't have really got behind them.

3:51And normally you watch a game like that and you think Freiburg, you know, this is the biggest moment in their history. Yeah, absolutely. They had their very first ever pitch invasion because they reached the final. This is not a club used to any attention at all. The romantic in me, who normally would go for the underdog. I couldn't. I really like the rest of the world. I wanted Villa and their beautiful football. And it's their season as well. You know, they couldn't score. I just couldn't buy a goal at the start of the season. Yeah, it was remarkable, wasn't it? And you thought they're lacking, you know, they're lacking pace.

4:25They haven't gained pace. What they've done is they've just made, Emery has made the most of what they've got, plus one of the world's greatest set-piece coaches. So it's a lovely package there. Very low spending in the summer. Hardly spent in comparison with the rest of them. But I could give you a team or a fan base that won't be too happy with them winning it. West Ham fans, because when they play Spurs and Spurs turn them over and that Villa team was unrecognisable that day. That's true. From then, they've been unbelievable. Forest, then last night. I actually know a few West Ham fans will be thinking, Exactly that, Tony.

4:59So well done for bringing that up. Hamza, lots of different strands to pull out with this Villa team. As Alison said, they're dips and peaks and troughs with their form this season. But with goals like that, you had the best players delivering on the biggest stage, didn't you? In terms of Watkins, Morgan Rodgers. Emi Wendia is a fantastic story. Martinez playing with a broken finger, we now understand. What caught your eye most? Tiloen's finish was fantastic. And I think it's important to have those moments. Well, it's particularly nice to have those moments as part of your crowning glory because for a club like Villa, and many fans who I know, so my age, slightly older, and a lot that are younger, have just heard of Villa's success.

5:43So it becomes a bit of a pressure on them. They go, oh, well, we know that the team won the European Cup before, won it twice. You have those stories from your grandparents or your parents or your uncles and aunties, whatever. And let me just give an example. So my school used to be in, well, it's in Aston. So we'd go, to get to Tesco, we'd have to walk through Villa Park. Right. And one day they actually had the old European Cup out. So I was walking there with my friend, Villa fan, and he went, whoa, the European Cup. And they were just doing a photo shoot that day. And you could see it in his eyes.

6:17It was the story of everything that he's heard about, right, there in front of him. But he hasn't actually seen that himself. He hasn't had that moment to invest in or bond with. It's just the story that he knows. Now, he and all those people that I know and the guys that went yesterday and are coming back today, they have their own story that they can actually say, I was there for that. I saw that. And it's not just the echoes of someone else's story, of granddad's story or grandma's story. They've now got their own to focus on. And in that game, you then had that beautiful goal by Tielemans, which just gives you that sort of lift.

6:53So those set pieces you're on board with, Hamza? Yeah. They're skilful, right? They certainly are. Compared to just lumping it into the six-yard box where the keeper can't catch it, you've got intelligent movement, you've isolated a specific player, you've cleared out the area, and then you've got a very well-taken corner. And that is... It's also... You couldn't get a Sunday league team recreating that, or a league one team or a league two. You might not get many Premier League teams who could pull it off over and over again. It was so perfect, wasn't it? Everything. You saw the ball dropping to Tillemans and in your mind you went, oh my God, oh my God, this could be great.

7:27Please don't shank it. Please don't blast it over the bar. It was a fantastic, fantastic finish. Tony? Well, to me it was one of the best set pieces I've ever seen. And for a number of reasons. Not it was just a short pass to Morgan Rodgers. It's where Tillemans starts and he obviously has to go all the way around the back. And the ball can't be a ping. It can't be a missile type of pass. It's got to be literally played up like a, you know, just like a lob, some sort of. Yeah, little chipped, like a dink. But it's got so much height on the ball, it gives him time to come round and then meet the ball perfectly.

8:03And it also allows the defenders or the blockers to stop the fibre players getting into position. So the pass by Morgan Rodgers is a deliberate, literally leaving it in the air as long as you can to get round and meet it. And it's all time to perfection. And that's why I thought it was such an extraordinary goal. And I'm not wrong, am I? Hitting a ball like that, dropping out of the air, is very difficult, though. So nine times out of ten, you'd see the ball at a lower trajectory. It would come in a lower with a bit more pace because defenders will probably intercept it. But because of the blocks and the way it's all panned out, it's nearly a perfect set piece that I've ever seen.

8:45Yeah, absolutely. We should just mention as well, in terms of, Alison, and you mentioned the match report that was delivered by Martin Samuel on the Times website, and our dear pal Gregor Robertson as well. You will be stunned to hear, listeners, what the subject of Gregor's piece was on the Times website. John Bloody McGinn. And it is a lovely read about a talisman for Aston Villa. Yeah, you should, honestly, Tony, you should read his intro. Honestly, it sounds like he fancies the bloke. It's quite remarkable, but fully justified as well. So, yeah, Gregor and Martin were there, and they're travelling back today, which is why they're not with us, but you can read their articles on the Times website.

9:15Another great story as well, Emmy Wendia. This is one of the great, I love this story in modern football so much. Signed post-Jack Grealish, given the number 10 shirt. In terms of like modern football and support local heroes, one of the great impossible tasks, you might say. A really difficult start to his Villa career. And now here he is, curling in majestic finishes in a European final, wearing that number 10. It's fantastic to me. And also just such a lovely antidote to this quick, reactive, you know, support. Oh, he's not good enough. Get rid of him. Get the game gone. It's wonderful to see, isn't it, Alison?

9:52Just a lovely antidote to this kind of modern football. He was injured and he said it was tough. I mean, it's tough for every player when you're out for a long period. But they clearly gave him enough love and attention and nurturing while he was there so that when he came back, he was allowed to... He was given that breathing space to find himself on the pitch, I feel. And we've watched him like, it's like watching, you know, a baby signet grow into a beautiful swan. You've watched the first tentative steps. And so almost week on week, you've seen his skill just become more exposed to the world stage.

10:30And I think this is probably the ultimate man of the match performance expression of it. He's so comfortable working with that Villa team. He's clearly really, you know, admired and loved by them. and it does go to show that if you can have a bad injury and it doesn't really work for you to begin with, you can come through it. That must be an inspiration for so many players because there are injuries galore these days where you think, oh, well, the first thing you think of when a player's injured is, oh, will he come back the same? But he's managed it. When he first came from Norwich, he really did struggle and you felt that there was going to be no long-term future for him at Villa Park.

11:08It was an investment that clearly wasn't working. But then that comes down to Unai Emery. Now, how do I work this player into the team? How do I get the best out of him? And last night, again, there was many times where the ball was being put between players and it was to Buendure's feet. And he loves it. That's where he wants it. He wants it in tight situations because that's where he excels. And we were so unlucky, wasn't we, for the chance at the end where it was a great bit of interplay. Lovely move. And he's got his head in his hand because he's Mr. Sitter. But the play leading up. But that's where I feel that he's come on leaps and bounds and getting a goal like he did as well.

11:46Now, when you score a goal like that and he's confident, you have to realize, I think he's 29 now. You know, this isn't a young lad that you hope one day comes good. This was an experienced player when he first came up. Was he 25 when he got to Villa Park? The longer he stayed, but he's been blessed to have a manager that's found a way, had faith in him and given him that opportunity. Yeah. Hamza, in terms of some of these other players that we're talking about, Ollie Watkins has been in very good form coming towards the end of this season and the World Cup, we're going to get that World Cup squad on Friday.

12:19Morgan Rodgers as well has dipped of late again, as he's dipped before that you've talked about. But turning it on in this game, probably another good sign for England in the World Cup that he's still got a little bit left in the tank and that he's ready to deliver on a big stage. Yeah, just the past few games, the Liverpool game in particular, the pair looked really good. Watkins was outstanding in that match. But yeah, just finding that form. I think as well, there was a quote after the Liverpool match where I think Watkins was asked about his reaction to not being included in the England squad.

12:49I'm going to go and prove myself now. And the quality that they're showing has come, well, people always talk about, Martin references a lot actually, especially with Real Madrid. the idea of building into the season and finishing late. And if you're not in a cup competition, it doesn't really matter, right? Yeah. Or you messed up your season. But Villa had the poor start, then grew into the season really strongly, had that brief title tilt, which I think even fans recognise. You can say it, Hamza, it was only me on this podcast saying that they were in the title. It's fine. They were really good in that period.

13:27Then they dropped off a bit, but they secured Champions League football and then built into this last period really well. This is, yeah, I think the credit has to be with Emery and the way that he's managed these players. I mentioned in a previous pod as well the way that he stuck with Rodgers. He said, OK, you've started the season poorly. Other managers might drop you. He said, I'm going to back you through this period. You're going to build your way into form. And he did. And then he had that amazing scoring run and he's backed him again and he's found that run now. Yeah, brilliant, brilliant management.

13:56The Villa is such an... You know, the atmosphere, I've been there a few times, in my career as well as just watching games. The atmosphere of Villa Park is tremendous. Yeah, that's what you guys always say, isn't it? Gregor always talks about it. Well, it's kept its old-fashioned style of stadium, the whole end, and they get... And Villa fans have really embraced the experience of the last few years. They've loved it. And this is a team that's had a battle against financial fair play. Yeah, absolutely. Speaking of Villa fans, a quick word, things I'd never say on... I thought I'd never say on this podcast, a quick word for Prince William.

14:27I really enjoyed his reactions in the crowd you know you get a bit sceptical these days about famous people going and watching teams and thinking ah you're just piggybacking on the end of success but he's a proper fan isn't he he's absolutely mad for it he's also got that little kind of little look you know nudge the little lift in the seat just before the goal goes in I'm like I do that at Lincoln that's brilliant you are a proper proper fan I suspect there's a deal struck about how many times the camera is allowed to go to him you know because I don't think there is Alison if you were a director If you were a director, you'd be on him all the time, wouldn't you?

14:57But they kept it quite limited, I thought. There's a Prince William fan cam idea in there somewhere. You're welcome, Sky Sports. I tell you what he does as well. You know when there's a chance, he gets to the standing up position. You know when you get fans in front of you, like, sit down. He gets in the standing position, as a fan would do, as they're about having a chance on would they score. It's been quite funny because you just wouldn't expect someone of that acting the way he is. Just absolutely mad for it. As ever on these kind of discussions, talk will turn, because I'm going to turn it that way, to what next for Aston Villa?

15:33They've had success before. They've been one of these clubs in the last few years where, you know, the Champions League, they had that brilliant run, but then faltered right at the end in terms of qualification. Had this tournament now. Went into the season, everyone's saying, Unai Emery and Villa will win the Europa League. And they have done, and it's brilliant. Champions League now next season. it's a different playing field in the Premier League, I feel, that we're heading towards, not wanting to do season previews just yet. And we're going to talk about Pep Guardiola and Mikel Arteta. But what next?

16:03Can they make that leap to be title contenders so that I don't look silly when I'm suggesting that they might be? Well, he talked to the structure afterwards in the game of, you know, adding 10 ,000 seats to Villa Park, generating a bit more revenue, being successful on the pitch, making Champions League regular. The best thing they can do is keep him, get him tied down to a long contract. I don't think there's another job for him. I think he's the perfect man for Aston Villa. And I don't think he'd get as much power at other football clubs as he gets at Villa because quite clearly the club have bought into him.

16:35Yeah. And I think it's all about keeping him and let him have the opportunity of just building on what he's already got. There's going to be so much change amongst the higher echelons of clubs. Is this what I mean? That there's a little gap there. That's what I mean, quietly. I was thinking about... Go in the outside lane and overtake a few, maybe. Experienced, longest-serving managers. And also, I suspect, while it's absolutely lovely to have won five Europa League, I think he'd like to go one step better. In some weird way, if he looks back on his career, he might think, why couldn't I just make that step to the Champions League?

17:11And I think it's set up for him. I mean, the financial fair play is obviously a problem, but he's so adept at navigating cup competitions. I think he could just, maybe that's the route to success for Villa is in the Champions League, not the league because he's, I think he wants it. Yeah. Hamza, in terms of the players that they've got, you know, you've talked about this kind of strain of squad depth that Villa are probably going to have to contend with now, next season as well, as well as this season and some of those peaks and troughs. It's important that as well as Tony quite rightly saying they keep Unai Emery in these days for a long time, players like Morgan Rodgers, for example, Gary Jacob mentioned it on the Arsenal show that Arsenal might be interested in him in the summer.

17:49They need to keep this core group of talent, don't they? Interesting. One of my mates is a Villa fan. We were discussing Morgan Rodgers when we were watching the semi-final together and he said if a big bid came in for him, he'd actually, we'd take that and we'd use that to reinvest in the squad. And I think what Alison mentioned about financial fair play, that's probably the way that Villa may need to think about it, thinking about how do you raise those revenues and then give yourself level footing with the bigger clubs in the league. And that's how you get your sustained success. As Trenny mentioned, you increase your stadium size.

18:25Arsenal, actually, as Martin Ziegler wrote yesterday morning, have got their highest ever club revenues, one of the highest ever. You do that, that gives you the platform. So one success can then give you the platform if you spend well and you use that commercial income that you get from it to reinvest and then move the club up. It's not a quick process, so you can't just go, okay, we're now title contenders. You've got to work at it for four or five years, which is why it makes sense to stick with Emery, stick with that project, maybe think about which players you can monetise. It doesn't sound nice, right?

18:59You've got players that have just won the first European trophy since the Super Cup. But that's a real question. How do you turn one success into several? You go, okay, we're going to have to be a little bit cutthroat here. And like Alison said as well, trying to get equal footing with the Premier League teams in the league is really difficult, right? But what English teams have is an advantage over most other teams in Europe with that squad quality, with the finances. So targeting the Champions League, seeing if they can take that PSG match and just turn the dial up slightly and turn that into a victory, as I did last season, that I think is a question.

19:39It's difficult, but I think that there is a path there. But it's one to... I think it's an exciting time for Aston Villa. And there will be some tough decisions. Players like Oli Watkins have been a great servant for the club, done brilliantly for them. But they're going to have to find someone. As much as everyone talks about Kane with England, Villa are going to have to one day replace... What's Oli now, 31? He's such a clever player. There was one thing that struck me as well, Unai Emery. Now, Lindelof, in the team and playing the role he did, it was like, well, not many of us saw that coming, did we?

20:14Yeah. You know, he seems to have that sense of what he needs at certain times. Gets a lot out of players. I had a great moment with Victor Lindelof early in the season when I was talking with my mates about what a great signing he was and he immediately scored a known goal. So they've never let me live that down. So thank you very much for bringing up that. That's really being savvy streetwise of what a manager knows more than us about what a player's capable of doing. And Oli Watkins paid tribute to Lindelof afterwards. He said it was down to him. So the players are buying into these changes that the manager makes.

20:45It's fantastic. Thanks, guys, making sure I don't look like a complete idiot in front of my friends. The European allocation, if Villa finish VIF in the Premier League with the final game this weekend, means we'll get six teams in the Champions League next season. Honestly, I have no idea how I'm going to do the match list. It's a terrifying thought. But we're going to talk about some of the ramifications in the second half of the show when we look to the final games of the weekend. I mentioned it, so I will just read it to you. He's not here with us, Gregor Robinson, so I'm going to read you his intro on John McGinn because I think he would want it documented on the game podcast.

21:14It goes like this, and I'm not going to do it in the Scottish accent. No one deserves this moment more. The man they call Super John McGinn has been Aston Villa's most important player of the past decade, perhaps longer. And while Unai Emery has been the architect of this success, no one better represents the Spaniards' coaching and culture building than the Scotsman, who has spearheaded Villa's rise from the second tier to the Europa League winners in Istanbul. What a moment for the 31-year-old who has been there since the dark days in the Championship, but on Wednesday night followed in the footsteps of Denis Mortimer, Villa's skipper, when the West Midlands Club won the European Cup in 1982 in hoisting aloft a European trophy.

21:50And you know what? He would have written that intro if McGinn had gone off after five minutes. Maybe. I find it hard to disagree with you on that one, but it is a lovely piece from Gregor Robinson. He's like a stalker. He's a big fan. No, the misery film. He's a big fan. He's a big fan, definitely. Well, he could change. Gregor could change his first name to John, then he becomes John Robertson. Yeah, and then he would be another legend as well. Yeah, absolutely. Villa fans, I should say, finally. Tony Castorino saying it's an exciting time for you. Do get in touch with me, tom.clark at thetimes.co.uk.

22:21Hamza there talking about Morgan Rodgers' future. Tony talking about Unai Emery. Tell me how it feels to be a Villa fan. right now Alison we talked about the changing shape of the Premier League we've got a changing shape in that we've got new title winners Arsenal crowned this week as I mentioned already we've already done a special show with Gary Jacob on how they did it but Alison I wanted to ask you about Mikel Arteta he's a man that has fascinated all of us and I would say you in particular because we got you to write the piece about the journey that he's been on because you were there at his very first press conferences unveiling as Arsenal manager and you've written an excellent piece on the Times website Right.

22:57This is... Tell me how you feel. I feel relieved for Mikel Arteta that he has this Premier League title now. You know, I'm so delighted for him, just as a human being, that he has this. Because this has been a long journey with a lot of doubts along the way, hasn't it? No, you can palpably tell the sheer effort he's put into the job. He doesn't even try and look relaxed. There's a tension around him. Even when Arsenal have won and he occasionally will smile in a press conference if they've had a nice victory. There's still a tautness to his forearms and his jaw. There's been a tension there. And the way I viewed him has been informed by that very first unveiling.

23:43I've never been to one quite as in-depth as that. We were there, the press were there for hours and hours and hours. And he was just relentlessly saying, I know this is a tough job and I want the culture here to change. and I'm going to drop blood, I'm going to bleed for this club, it's going to be everything for me. He accepted all possible criticism, he was too young for it. He was the youngest manager in the league in 2019 when he came in. People thought we've had much younger since, but at the time he was still quite young. Yeah. And he was relatively inexperienced. Was it an emotional appointment because of his history with the club?

24:21Why was he considered the man? And yet you got the impression that the board were going to invest in him in the long term. And he was so humbled by that faith that he was going to give everything. So lots of journalists have written pieces about how he never switches off. He gets up at 5 a.m. He is as into the job as he could be. And probably the most significant thing is you might think. over that period he might have relaxed into it but he never he never he never did it was as though all he wanted was to bring the premier league title to the club and those three successive coming seconds has what do they do to you as a person they they can they rock your stability your belief your faith in yourself do the people around you start thinking well you know second again.

25:14Or do you take, you have to have such strength of character to think second is really good. We're really close. There are reasons, different reasons. Not all of them are in our control as to why we came second. If I'm second, I can make it to first place. And I agree with you, Tom. It's like, it's a relief for everybody to see him finally do it because whatever you think of him, whatever you think of some of the tactics that Arsenal have employed this season, whether you think they've got lucky with decisions, you cannot say he has not worked as hard as any manager has ever worked to win the title.

25:53Yeah, Tony? Yeah, I mean, I was saying to Alison and that before the show that I was at the Sheffield United game just before he got the job and they'd lost 1-0 out to Sheffield at Bramall Lane. Right. And I was there and I looked at the team that night. And you had Aubameyang down the middle. They had Pepe on one side and Saka. Guendouzi, Xhaka in midfield. David Luiz in defence. Leno in goal. And I watched and they were awful. So this is just before Arteta gets the job. And they were really poor. And I came away thinking, this is one tough job with the team they've got. And from where he started from, and I know he spent lots of money.

26:34Everybody spends lots of money if they can. that he had to real build. And then there's the reset at the football club that he had to do as well. Because remember when he got Aubameyang and he was desperate to get him to sign a new deal? Yeah. But that didn't last too long. He then realised he'd made a mistake. We got a lot out of Aubameyang on the pitch, didn't we? In a very brief but simple way. But when it ended, it ended badly. It also ended badly with Ozil. As Alisson put in a piece about COVID and him not taking a percentage of his wages, a cut on his wages. You know, things like, you're not buying into what everybody else is doing at the football club.

27:07You're the highest paid player. You know, so he's had to deal with things. And the coming second, I've just felt that he's really earned the right to win the league. And, look, I'm simplifying it, but it's just hard work. It was way more complicated than that. He seems like he thought about everything. Some didn't work, some did. But at the end of the day, he's got the club and a team that are in the Champions League final as well. Yeah. I mean, if they win this, you know, if they go in and beat Paris, because they are the underdogs. Absolutely. But, you know, they're not a big underdog. No. They're just not the favourite to me.

27:47Well, as Gary Jacobs said, speaking to me yesterday, it almost suits them perfectly now. You know, they've won the title. It is a great season now, regardless. It's done. And now they've got a kind of... Gary described it as a free hit. that might be a little bit simplistic, but you kind of agree with him. It kind of is a little bit. PSG are the holders. Yeah, I agree. Everyone talks about PSG, the start of a dynasty in Europe. Arsenal can kind of just go play however the hell they want. Imagine them going to that final having just screwed up in the league somehow. They don't play anybody at Crystal Palace in the final game.

28:18Everyone's got a rest. He won't play any of them that are going to play in the final, that's for sure. But then Crystal Palace won't play anyone either. Maybe they're both of them, but he's definitely not playing anybody because he's going to say, recover, enjoy that night, recover. We now focus. Yeah, you guys mentioned that, you know, kind of illustrating the journey that they've been on, some of the kind of players and characters that they had in the dressing room previously. I just wanted to finish with players and characters that they have in the dressing room now, because Gary and I talked about the coaching staff, the journey this season, picked out key moments, but we didn't really mention the players because we have talked about the players a lot.

28:50But who would be the key person in the Arsenal team for you this season? There are so many, obviously. you could easily list three or four who could be joint top. But if I was forcing you to pick one key player, who would it be? Hamza, I'll start with you. Well, Alison voted for him in her FWA pick for play of the season. I would go David Raya. I think there's a number of matches this season where he has made saves that are utterly remarkable. I've spoken before about what I think separates the very best players from the rest. And one of those qualities is decisiveness. the ability to do key things in key moments.

29:27And I mean, the West Ham game is the best example of that. There's a one-on-one and every single Arsenal fan's heart is in their mouth. The whole, everyone in the ground is just sort of... And David Raya is the cool guy and he makes a save and he makes it look simple. But he keeps him in that game and he gives him that ability to then get their goal. And then, so when Callum Wilson scores later on, it's only for an equaliser. and then it's disallowed. But that save gave Arsenal the platform to go on and win. And you can go through countless matches this season. There's only one game where I think there's been a serious error and that was against Wolves, a mix-up with Gabriel.

30:08But otherwise, he's been flawless and you see him making the key difference for his match, in my opinion, more than anyone else in that team. Yeah, Alice and Tony, we need to go through a break very quickly. But just who would you pick if you had to pick one Arsenal player? Well, I'd have Gabriel in there. but them three I would be happy with any of the choices but them three most definitely so Rice would be the other one would you say Gabriel Rice and Raya but I think Gabriel has also done a lot of things we're talking about and he's been a captain like Tony Adams was to Arsenal because he's always the one that's you know giving lifting the team and fighting for everything and doing some of the ugly things in the game that need to be done I would probably add Gabriel in there so just a bit different I'd go with Gabriel To add to Hamza's excellent exposition of Rea, also Rea is the manager's eyes and ears on the pitch.

30:58He often runs to the dugout to have a little chat. He often acts as a sweeper-keeper when his distribution is good. He's not just a shot-stopper. Everything about him is so perfect. And I genuinely think if he was not the keeper, they would not have won the title. Can I just add one little thing on this? It just shows the importance now of goalkeeping coaches because the goalkeeping coach was at Brentford with Rea and went to Arsenal. and then obviously they've made a big call in bringing, letting Ramsdale go and going, he's going to be our number one. Although he never said, I haven't got a number one.

31:29He clearly bloody looked at it. And that's proved to be absolutely an amazing decision. Loads of great reactions as well to Arsenal's triumph on the internet. But one of my favourites was the Arsenal fan who tweeted, we now need to get a dog called One as well as Win, which I thought was one of the nicest things. Please make that happen, Mikel Arteta, for next season. it's time to take a quick break but we'll be back with loads more in the second half of the show a little quiz question from Bill Edgar Brentford's Igor Thiago will almost certainly end this season as the Premier League's second highest scorer having hit 22 goals but in what category is Thiago top in the Premier League this season with 72?

32:06Find out after the break

32:22Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clarke and I've got Alison Rudd, Hamza Khalid Luna and Tony Cascarino with me. A little bit tricky, this quiz question. Today from Bill Edgar, Igor Thiago is top for fouls committed. 72 of them. Hamza, even you as the stats man, we're quite surprised by that. That's why Bill's a stats guru. Yeah, he snuck that one past you. It's time to move on to one. I mean, this story proves that this is the most mad season in football. I think it is one of the most extraordinary stories I've ever worked on in football journalism, and it's in this most extraordinary season.

32:58Spygate. Spygate in football. Southampton kicked out of the Championship playoff final after spying on Middlesbrough and admitting to doing so for other opponents during the Championship season. We're joined now by the Times' chief sports reporter and the sports news reporter of the year, Martin Ziegler. Martin, hello. Hi, everybody. Good to be with you. Yeah, lovely stuff. A wonderful fiver side screen we've got on YouTube now. Go and check it out. Look at that. Fantastic stuff. Martin, this story has developed so much over the past few days. You've been on top of it for the Times and on the website.

33:30Just give us a little summary of how it actually broke on Tuesday, I think it was, if I'm getting my days right, when I was in the office as well. And just the kind of magnitude of this decision. Because we were all waiting, weren't we? You were waiting for the call, I was in the office, and we're all going, no, it won't kick them out. Surely, surely not. Just take us back to that moment and that day, first of all. Yeah, so when it first happened, I think actually the first sort of public mention of this actually came on X, Twitter, by a Middlesbrough fan who tweeted that a spy had from Southampton had been ejected from the training ground.

34:06And then a couple of hours later, there was a story that was broken by the Daily Mail and then swiftly followed up by The Times, of course. And then it emerged that Middlesbrough made a formal complaint to the EFL. And then it all started getting very serious indeed. So although there were some sort of, you know, on the face of it, you know, some sort of slightly amusing elements to it, you know, somebody hiding behind a tree doing a runner, it all seems a bit sort of... It's a bit slapstick, isn't it? It's a bit comedic at times. Yeah, a bit Keystone Cops. Yeah, yeah. A bit Keystone Cops, exactly.

34:49But, you know, it soon became apparent that the EFL were treating this very seriously. And I think specifically because they'd toughened up their rules after the Leeds United Derby incident in 2019. So Leeds were, they were only fined£200 ,000. But there was a sort of grey area. There was no specific rule. And the EFL actually brought one in, that you cannot watch a rival club's training session within 72 hours of a game. And obviously this was within 72 hours of a game. And then it also emerged that there was evidence that Southampton had done this previously. So I think once that became clear, then I think it looked absolutely sort of nailed on, that if proven it was going to be a sporting sanction.

35:35And it just, whether that, for me, I wasn't sure if that would be exclusion from the playoffs or a point deduction for next season. As it turned out, it was both. Yeah. I mean, as you say there in that final answer, this is quite a move from the EFL, isn't it? I don't think... I certainly didn't see this coming. So many people have been saying, what will they go for? And I was thinking, big fine, maybe points deduction for next season, as you say. This is quite the stance from the EFL. Yeah, I think it's because you can always sort of break it down as that you treat the playoffs as a separate competition.

36:08Right. And that's a mini competition in itself. So what happened at Middlesbrough, that related to the playoffs. And then what then emerged and happened with Ipswich Town and Oxford United, that was for the championship separately. So I think that's why there are those two separate sanctions. Yeah. But I think it's the integrity of the competition. And you look back at Canada women's team at the Paris Olympics, they were docked six points. I mean, you know, that was basically they handed two defeats in their group of three matches by FIFA. And so that obviously that shows how seriously authorities are now taking this.

36:50And I think once it's in the rule book, the EFL thought that if you're spying and not just as a one off, but consistently, then that really hits the integrity of the competition. and it's cheating. If you don't take these stiff sanctions, what's the point in having the rules? Yeah, I mean, so where are we at now, Martin? We're recording this show on Thursday. We've got the final itself on Saturday. In terms of all the other things that have come out since, some of the stories that you've been writing, Martin Hardy, our colleague, and Matt Lawton as well, of course, this isn't done, is it, in terms of Southampton have appealed, that appeal has failed.

37:28Where are we at now and what do you think might come next? So the FA have announced this morning they're launching their own investigation. That will focus on individuals. If they commissioned the spying, took part in it, had knowledge of it, any of those things could lead to charges, individual charges and potentially lengthy bans. I mentioned the Canada Women's team. The head coach of that, Bev Priestman, English woman, and she was banned for a year by FIFA for her part in that. So we can, I think, I can't, things like that length, that length of sanction could happen here too. Southampton, I think, will also probably take their own action.

38:12And I think there's all reports that the Southampton owner, Dragon Solach, is heading to the club, very concerned about what's happened. Obviously, it's cost them potentially£200 million by missing out on the Premier League. And I think there'll be no surprise if there's club disciplinary action as well there. Yeah, there's loads more still to come on this story. I'm sure Martin will let you go because you're going to have to keep up to date with it and get the listeners and readers up to date on the Times website. Thank you very much for joining us, Martin Ziegler. Thanks all. Well, guys, I mean, as I said in my intro there, and Martin's summing up the kind of specifics and the nitty gritty as he always does so well, but this is crackers, isn't it?

38:55absolutely crackers. Firstly, can I get your reactions, just kind of snap reactions to the announcement? Because, I mean, as I said, I was in the office on Tuesday and planning ahead for all the ramifications of what was happening in the Premier League, dealing with the fallout of Pep Guardiola, and I was speaking to Martin and Martin Hardy, and I was going, there's no way. They're not going to kick them out. They're not going to kick them out. Popped up to the canteen to heat my tea up, came back down. Paddy, who was my colleague on the desk, went, they're out. I was like, who? What? Who's out?

39:21Southampton. They've kicked them out. I couldn't believe it. Were you shocked? And do you think it's the right thought? I was shocked, but on reflection, I don't see how it could have been anything else. When I did my day behind the scenes at Bournemouth, which is very nice, access all areas at a Premier League football club, it's really nice of them, and I enjoyed myself enormously, but they did not want me to go 72 hours before. They didn't want me to witness their preparation for their next Premier League game. They wanted me to go on a day where they were looking back at what had happened at the weekend and how they were absorbing the information from that and learning the lessons from what had just happened.

40:01They did not want even a member of the press who might have promised not to mention any set pieces you might have seen or whatever. Clubs take it very seriously how they're preparing for their next game. And it's, you know, it's marginal gains. If people know what you're going to be doing to prepare against you, there's a lot you can do with that. And given that, what was it, there's no point just fining a club. How does that help the team that's been wronged, Middlesbrough? It doesn't help Middlesbrough at all. So whilst I admit to being very shocked and feeling enormous sympathy for the Southampton fans, I don't see what the alternative was.

40:44Well, it's amazing sometimes when it happened with Bielsa and the lead team, it was trivialised, wasn't it? Yeah. It was like, oh, well, this is done, and so what? Well, and as Martin said in his answer there, there is the other side of it where it is slightly farcical and comical. And, you know, you had Sky Sports and people doing very good, actually, like Amdram of how it all played out and how this young intern, you know, then ran through the golf club and stuff. So it's kind of farcical. Actually, it was really serious. Farcical, but this is very serious, as also Martin Ziegler said. There's 200 million quid on the line.

41:14Yeah, and as Alison, you know, talked about just there, you know, we're looking at a club that has done something wrong, OK? But it wasn't just the one thing. We learnt very quickly that there were two other clubs in Oxford and Ipswich were involved in the similar thing. So now you've got a real problem. Yeah. And to give an example of what Alison was talking about, marginal gains. Yeah. The Villa goal last night was a perfect example of, if you know they're going to do that free kick, you stop it. The corner, you mean? Yeah, sorry, yeah, the corner. The corner, Rodgers, obviously Tillemans finishing it off.

41:48You could never do that if the team know, by the way, they do this free kick, they take a short corner, Rodgers will get it and he'll basically cross it across the edge of the box and Tillemans will make a run all the way around the back and come onto it. Someone will be there. So you could make a point of, maybe it's exaggerating, but you could go, well, that might have got Freiburg the European trophy. Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Hamza? Yeah, since spying is a real consideration for managers. So let's take any club that plays in Europe. Typically, they prefer to do their match day minus one training session at home and then fly and then do their press conference and do the media activities.

42:30They usually have the ability, if they want to, to train at that ground, at the stadium where they're going to play. But most teams actually turn it down because the managers are quite paranoid about that thing. And it's the same with national teams as well. you'll notice at the World Cup, they will do the exact same thing, even though these are neutral venues. When I covered the England's 21 team, Lee Carsley, again, he was a bit sort of wary about these specific things. I don't really like, and managers generally don't really like doing their match prep at a neutral venue because they're worried that there might be cameras there and that their stuff might get leaked.

43:05So this is a genuine consideration that they have, just because it's a dude standing adjacent to a tree rather than behind it, funnily enough, with an iPhone doesn't make it any smaller of a crime. I do sympathise somewhat slightly with Southampton in that they did not know what the punishment was going to be, right? If, for example, you steal a Mars bar and to take a real-life example, and you lose your hands for it, they get chopped off. Oh, I probably wouldn't have stolen the Mars bar. Even if it was£1.80, as I saw the other day, which is an outrageous price from Asma. If it was just, oh, you're just going to be told off and kicked out of Tesco or whatever, you can't come back.

43:43Yeah, you might risk it. That's why deterrence exists, right? So you understand what it is and, to some extent, what level of risk you're going to take. So I understand that I have a bit of sympathy there that Saddam didn't realise that this could be such a severe punishment, but that in no way excuses, knowing that they are breaking the laws as set out by the EFL to do something they're not allowed to do. Yeah, but Southampton weren't inviting opposition scouts in to watch their own training, were they? They were fully aware that they didn't want their training. Open training for the media ahead of key games, especially in Europe, used to be able to glean something from open training.

44:20That went a long time ago. Now you can't. They either do nothing at all in open training or they actually throw in a few red herrings. Everyone knows it matters. Mikkel's quite good with this because he will actually not have the players that are doubted. Yeah, as in not involved for the open session and then the actual session, they'll come along. I was going to say, we used to go to international football. We'd go, or in European games, we'd go to, obviously, sometimes the pitch we're playing on. We'd do a training session. We would practise free kicks that we weren't going to do. Really? Because the eyes were all on us while we were training.

44:55Just doing dummy free kick routine. The day before the game, we would basically be doing exactly that. Just had you hitting 25-yard free kicks over the bar. I was on the free kicks. They got Cascarino on the free kicks. They're barely Cascarino on corners. They've really mixed it up. By the way, there is just another side to it that's going to run and going to be really interesting is all the bonuses and all what... And people might not be interested in all that. As in for Southampton players and contracts, yeah. Marseille, I was there when we got promoted, but we got demoted at the same time, and we was promised all our bonuses.

45:27And they honoured. They honoured everything because a new consortium came in that sort of honour everything in agreement with the players. Now, this is where the Southampton players who have division or Premier League bonuses put in and goals and all the sort of things that come up. And legally, they can make a point because the players wouldn't have known all of this. Well, that's the story that Matt Lawton has written on the Times website, of course, that Southampton players might be seeking that kind of legal advice. Oh, I think they definitely will be. It's a story that's going to run and run.

45:53I mean, the other side of things is, there's anyone, a few people suggesting and fans going, well, the hole should just go straight up. There shouldn't be a final. Middlesbrough were beaten Hull should just go straight Middlesbrough weren't beaten fairly were they? That's the point So you think that's fine I mean I do have some sympathy for Hull in all of this I mean it's absolutely madness Their story in the Championship is one of the great stories of the season and it's been completely overshadowed and now they face a Middlesbrough team they're probably more preferable to face than Southampton because who knows what Southampton might have been spotting Just in case you're thinking if you are a Middlesbrough fan or even a Hull fan thinking when the hell are you going to talk about the final Me and Gregor Robertson will be back with an EFL Extra show to preview all three playoff finals.

46:32That'll be out tomorrow. So just wait for it. I promise. And we'll just talk about football. I might let Gregor talk about Spygate a little bit because it is one of the amazing stories. I also think as well, do we think part of it is the fact that in football we can use Spygate? Spygate is just such a great journalistic phrase, isn't it? You just absolutely love it. You know, even on the sports desk, we've been going, God, the news desk are absolutely mad for this Southampton story. And I was like, it's because they've got Spygate in the headlight. The biggest scandal since Kim Philby, I guess.

46:57Yeah, it's absolutely remarkable. And as I said at the top, one of another extraordinary chapter in this amazing season. Another one of those, Pep Guardiola is leaving Manchester City. Again, I've already mentioned it. If you've not listened, I did a special show with Matt Lawton discussing it and how it happened and what it might mean. But guys, just your reaction. I was thinking about this in the last couple of days as he heads into what will be his final game as City manager. Amazing decade. And I was thinking, Alison, you alluded to it earlier as well about this next season. Michael Carrick, we believe, will be Manchester United manager.

47:29Enzo Moresco, we believe, will be Manchester City manager. Xabi Alonso will be at Chelsea. Arne Slott, who will he be at Liverpool? We've got Mikel Arteta and Unai Emery now looking like the experienced men, you know, the leading figures. Are City instantly less terrifying to opposition teams and opposition fans now that Pep is leaving? Definitely. Yeah. He's such a huge... That's the best way of saying it, isn't it? It's the cult. The cult of Guardiola. They've got this great squad. and we talked about it in recent weeks with, oh, he wouldn't leave this squad, would he? They've added Semenyo.

48:00Dock, who suddenly looks like one of the best wingers in the world at the minute. Erling Haaland. They've added Gueye at the back. Kusinov looks brilliant. No Guardiola. And you just suddenly don't immediately go City are going to win everything. Tony Hamza, what do you think? I wouldn't go that far. I actually think... I mean, look, I'm still not guaranteed Mareska's going to get the job. Yeah. Right? OK, everyone's talking. And that happens so often in football. that we all say it's a definite and someone else gets it. But again, going back to the Klopp when he left, I'm sure City knew for a long time that he was leaving the football club.

48:35You know, this news just doesn't break out suddenly. And the owners, he's had such a great relationship with them quite clearly that he would have said, and they would have known, he would have wanted to give them time to find a replacement. That's how I see it. That's the obvious answer to me. City have got so many great players, Tom. I really have. Do you think they'll be... Will they win it? Well, it's a coin flip. I was just thinking about, like, and I know he's not been there as long, but there are comparisons to be made in terms of impact and significance with Sir Alex Ferguson. Yeah, but the team is much younger, Tom.

49:09The team is much younger. They've already started building. You don't think, even though, you know, when Ferguson left, Jamie Carragher talked about, you know, Sir Alex Ferguson winning them, like, five, ten points just by being him and, you know, his influence on the touchline and within the game itself. Hamza, what do you think? That's probably around the value of what an elite manager brings, around five, ten points. Yeah, I think I agree with Alisson. As a fan, you see Pep Guardi on the touchline. It's the same as when you see Messi or Ronaldo. Whoa, there is greatness here. When he walks into the press conference room, you notice it's a little bit quieter than when someone else walks in.

49:52Whereas if a normal manager walks in, Everyone's quiet and respectful, but if Pep walks in, it's silent, right? Pep is here. Everyone sit down, listen. And that level of respect and reverence will be gone, yeah. And Enzim Morescu is clearly a very good manager if he gets a job. But yeah, you lose that. But interestingly as well, I think the order and tactical style that Pep represented, he's always been at the cutting edge until probably around a year ago. He has been quite uniquely, he has both been the best and someone on the edge and defining new philosophies. However, I think that's probably not been true over the last year or so.

50:36And I think it's really interesting that you're going to have new managers now that are going to try and take football tactics in a new direction. And we don't know which way it's going to go, but it's no longer going to be Pep's project anymore. So it's a good point to end, I think. Yeah, really, really. Is it mad? That's the final story. If you think that Pep leaving, that would have been, because of the craziness of the last week. It's not even the final story, Tom. We've got the relegation battle in the Premier League going down to the final day between West Ham and Tottenham. I've not even worked that in yet.

51:04I just find it like... We're getting an England World Cup squad tomorrow. We've got to fit them both in in eight minutes. Yeah, OK, but Tom, there would have been a time where you would have got... If we'd known Pep was going, we'd have been... It's Pep. It's all Pep. And, you know, and suddenly we've done other stories. I'm not saying it... But it just shows you the craziness of football and the week we've ended up at. It really is remarkable. And as I say, Tuesday night, I was there and barely even, I was, by full time, I was like, thank God that Chelsea won. And I mean that in no disrespect to Tottenham fans because I was like, we don't want any more big stories now.

51:36Just push this one to the final day, eh? Let's go to the final day. Tottenham fans, I'm really sorry, but that's just a little bit of professional insight there. But it does go to the final day. Tottenham and West Ham, both at home. Alison, you are going to be there at Tottenham. Yes. Gregor Robertson is going to be at West Ham, Leeds. It does come down to West Ham, doesn't it? And the question probably is, do we think they can summon a performance from somewhere? Because we've talked so much with Aston Villa in particular about peaks and troughs of form. West Ham had this good little run where they get out of the relegation zone and have followed it with a dreadful run.

52:12Does anyone see them getting something at home, all the pressure? Yeah, I was at the West Ham Arsenal game. and they were very unfortunate not to get a draw from that. You know, the champions elect. They battled and they have spirit. They have a lot of the things that Spurs do not have, which is why I think if you were to say, who would you want to survive? I would err on the side of the team that has more team spirit in it. And I think... Tottenham have shown a lot of team spirit lately. I know you're upset about them not showing team spirit previously in the season. You weren't at the bridge.

52:46They definitely have. Well, we'll come to that in a second. But do you think West Ham can win? Because West Ham need to win. West Ham have to win. Do we think West Ham can win? Definitely think they can win. Taps? Well, first thing, there's a few places you get a lot of money for if you go higher up the league. And Leeds are in that position. I think they can get two or three spots going up, which is worth about£7 million. Yeah, if Leeds win, they could go up three places. Yeah, exactly. So it's good money. Also, I just feel that Daniel Farker's team have, like they did in the last game, where they kept going to the end, I think he's trying to achieve the highest points to them.

53:21You know, keep it going. They've got one more game. So it's not a given that West Ham, you expect three points. I think it's actually a really good game. And you also say the same thing about Tottenham as well, facing David Moyes and Everton. They're in the similar position in that mid-table. Good couple of million quid on the line for finishing higher in the table. Hamza, how do you see it playing out? I think there's nine possible eventualities and the only one that works in West Ham's favour is that they win and Spurs lose if Spurs draw or win. It's unlikely. Yeah, we all know that. Why do you think, seriously though, why is it unlikely that a team at home who have proven that they've got over a really terrible spell, they've got their best players who are fit, they have shown that they can summon something pretty decent football against a Leeds team that will be competent.

54:15But you can't... I'm sorry, I don't think players rise to the challenge of possible relegation in the same way as possibly moving up the table a little bit. I think there'll be much more give it everything from the West Ham players. I think that's the same as Spurs though, right? Spurs just need a draw. The Spurs have not... West Ham, to me, West Ham have shown at home, at a place that's often been historically rubbish, they've shown they can get it together. Spurs have not at home shown they can get it together. I think it's slightly miraculous to assume that suddenly on the last day of the season that stadium is going to be rocking and positive.

54:54No, I think it will be. No, but if they suffer an early setback, I think it'll become very, very nervy. I think it still will be because I think as well they can see the tantalising prospect of just surviving and then what Roberto De Zerbi could deliver for them. That's the difference, I think, with Igor Tudor where it would have been just desperately hanging on to anything. I think you've seen progress with Tottenham in a very short space of time. And on that Tuesday, you know, they nearly got an equaliser against Chelsea. I thought they played pretty well in patches in that Chelsea game. Tony, you disagree?

55:23I was there, Tom, and I was working. And I said on air, I said, if Tottenham play like they have tonight, they'll get beat by Everton. You really think? Because I thought for large periods, they kept having this habit of getting in great positions, getting the ball advanced forward, and then suddenly turning and going out and going backwards. I did it way too often. And I mean, of course they've got to be better than they were at Chelsea. There were moments, I think, where I'd agree with you, Tom, is that the last final 15 minutes, once they got an equaliser, they looked more likely. Which is belief, and that's kind of what I think we were like.

55:57But before that, I was just like, wow. Isn't it amazing how sometimes fate ends up? Because David Moyes, who was the Messiah, is now, obviously he's had success with West Ham, is now could be the one that could do them such a big favour by beating Spurs. A lot of West Ham fans making that point. It's two ways, though, doesn't it? It's like, I won you your first European trophy and then you got rid of me. So I'm going to send you down. Or I will also save you. Is that a pick a team? Pick a name? Who goes down? I think West Ham will go. I said it at the start of the season. Hamza. I think so too, but I'd quite like them to say it.

56:38Alison? I've said Spurs for so long, I'm not going to change it now. I think it'll just be West Ham. Finally, as well, as I mentioned, we are getting the England World Cup squad tomorrow. You can follow all the latest on the Times website. We've got some brilliant content prepared for when we find out who Thomas Tuchel is picking. Just finally, guys, who's the one person that you really hope to see in? I've got kind of two. Harry Maguire has been my long kind of campaign on this show, but my more recent campaign has been Morgan Gibbs-White, Sorry. And Johnny Northcroft has written an excellent piece speaking to the Nottingham Forest midfielder.

57:08I think he could be such a game changer, even if it's just off the bench for England. He'd be the one I really hope to see in the squad. Hamza, if there's one name or a couple of names that you really hope to see in... I'll give two. I'll give Watkins and Welbeck because the squad needs goals. Yeah. They also need vibes as well, don't they? I'd love to see Danny Welbeck at a World Cup. Tony? Don't know. Don't know. No, I can see it for why. I mean, look... You don't know about Danny Welbeck? No, I... No, I obviously like Will Barrett. I think he's a great player who would fit into the idea of being a great player, if called upon anyway, with his attitude.

57:41But what about those forwards? Oli Watkins in for a while. Oli Watkins, to me, would be not just because of the week he had. I just think he's a great forward, like he was in Qatar for when Harry Kane came off. But he didn't make the final squads and he had an injury. But when there was talk that he might not get in, I was like, I'm not sure about that one leaving Oli out. I couldn't see it. So I would hope that he does make it. Definitely have Watkins in. Alison, final word for you? Garner and Bowen, because they're both, they've both had very, in difficult circumstances, more so for Bowen. Their consistency, I mean, they are, I would argue, two of the most consistent England players through the league.

58:21And I love their attitude. And I think they won't be first team choice, but I think to have players like that, that you can call upon and know exactly what they'll do. That's so important. Yeah, two really interesting shouts there. As I mentioned, we will have the latest for you on the Times website as well. We'll hopefully deliver you a special episode of the game podcast on the England squad. And as I mentioned earlier, me and Gregor will be back with an EFL extra show as well to preview the playoff finals, but we'll leave it there for now. Tony Cascarino, Hamza Khalid Luna and Alison Rudd. Thank you very much for joining me.

58:52Thank you too for listening. We'll hope to have you back for those extra shows very soon. We'll see you then. Thank you.