Was Premier League power exposed?

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1:30England star saying farewell to international football and look ahead to the weekend's action. I'm Tom Clark and joining me today we have the chief correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the football correspondent for the Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is with me as usual. Right team, loads and loads of big results, loads of talking points. But I thought I wanted to help me actually kind of structure this show because I can't work out what the most significant result was from this midweek Champions League set of matches.

1:58so Johnny just give us your short take on what your most significant result was you thought out of these six games Yeah the quick answer is Manchester City losing quite heavily in Real Madrid and you know puncturing their chances in the tournament and I suppose the connoisseur's choice would be Arsenal struggling to get a draw against the sixth place side in the Bundesliga Yeah I think that's good. Martin your most significant result you were obviously at two games Yeah I was at two games neither of them with the most really no I don't think so but you'd go Real City yeah I mean Chelsea I was at Chelsea who got beat by PSG which it wasn't a shock even though they beat PSG 3-0 in the summer Newcastle did very very well against Barcelona but City City going down as they did against Real Madrid is significant I think ok Gregor that's his Spurs I mean even by Spurs Spurs standards themselves in Madrid.

2:575-2 in the end, it wasn't too bad. Oh, wow game. Can't wait to talk about that, Tom. Yes, there is. I mean, I think there's a good case for that, even on a goalkeeping level. I think, taking your choice of connoisseur's choice, Johnny, I think there's a case for saying Liverpool losing in Galatasaray again for the second time this season. You know, looking at Arnie Slott and his position at the club, under some kind of mad pressure, despite being the Premier League holders, they keep looking at chances and competitions and going, well, if they win this, if they win this, if they do well in this.

3:24they've got Manchester City in the FA Cup and now they've got a difficult second leg against Galatasaray with an advantage that would be my slight connoisseur's choice I'd say I've very much been puzzled by the anti-Arnie Slott thing all season but I think his critics would say that the problem with Liverpool at the moment is that yeah all these problems were inherited created by the events of the summer and the squad churn and all that kind of stuff but he's not been making a particularly good fist he didn't create the problems but he's not doing a very good job at solving them and what Galatasaray away seemed to show defeat for a second time was that the dial isn't really moving at Liverpool that's where I started to get worried for Arnie Slott that I don't blame him for where he is but at some point he's got to start fixing these problems and Liverpool are stuck I'm completely with you I'm not for a minute suggesting that I think he should go I think he did an amazing job last season but it's these moments that you need to kind of get the bandwagon going in the other direction don't you Anyway, so it's two votes for City-Real.

4:25So I think we should start there because I think it also allows me to ask the question around English football's dominance of European competitions and how brilliant the Premier League is. Because you've got to say that after facing each other in the league stage and City looking completely comfortable, Real Madrid being kind of pulled apart by Benfica various times in the previous leg, does any results sum up the kind of nonsense of this competition and what it's become than Real Madrid turning it on in the Bernabeu against Manchester City? I mean, in lots of ways, you were kind of stunned by this result, but then you had to check yourself and go, hang on, this is Real Madrid in the Champions League, guys.

5:00It's become a competition that starts in March. Yeah. Unfortunately, it starts in September, but it's actually a competition now that starts in March. It's the age of sport as content, isn't it? Yeah. And we'll see that the summer's well cut, where we'll just play a lot of games in order to eliminate what a small fraction of the team. Yeah, yeah, yeah, absolutely. I haven't said that we still like all of us me included I said it just a few weeks ago it would be a minor miracle if Real Madrid won the Champions League and like you have to check yourself again because they have you know yes Real Madrid have been like this in the past and they've really turned on at this time of the year but they've never been as bad as they were in recent weeks in recent and without Mbappe and Bellingham as well and everything like that it was amazing or is it the city are genuinely not the city we keep putting this on City they're going to come good, they're going to do this they're going to go on one of those runs and then you see them and you think maybe they're not, maybe they're not maybe they're just not quite where they were before, certainly defensively Is there questions for Pep Guardiola to answer as well on this one, he made a tactical tweak he's famed for his tactical tweaks in big games in Europe that seem to cause City more problems than they do help him.

6:15Yeah, we've seen this before it's a cliche he overthinks but you know a lot of cliches are rooted in truth and it was one of those nights where to leave just two in midfield and two ageing players in midfield maybe he was surprised by the midfield Arboluchos for Real Madrid which was full of legs and he had plenty of numbers in there but City were overrun in that area and it was because Pep wanted to go for the jugular he sensed City could win and maybe he got carried away with City's favourites tag and to put Savino, Semenyo and Doku on the pitch with Haaland who doesn't really take part in the play ahead of them that just left City so overloaded at the top and weak in the middle and then as Martin says defensively it didn't seem to work either so yeah Pep's selection and the general approach to the game which was very gung-ho, it was very much we're going to go and win here very poor time management was at play but I think also just City they are as Martin said they're not they're not stable they're up and down there's glimpses of Old City but there's not the mechanical consistency of the Old City a stunning performance as well from Federico Valverde not just scoring a hat-trick but absolutely dominating the game what a performance and what a player what's our favourite goal of these three?

7:36the first one for me the third? still the first one for me I love a big the touch in the third is just sublime and Gehi almost walking out of the stadium isn't he? that was the moment as well where you like what we're just talking about there it's not been the same city I mean you saw Nico Raleigh was done taken out of the game for the first he actually was done by although he scored against Real Madrid earlier this season at the Bernabeu he was done by Rodrigo for a goal there too so like he's had a great season brilliant but this is Real Madrid in the Bernabeu you're seeing it and Gehi has not played Champions League football Kusunov was asked to mark to finish his junior you've only got Ruben Diaz left out of a back a back four really that you think it's not a city back pool there's a level isn't there there's a level and there's experience at that level and players once it gets to that that very you know the best players just step up just right this is the Champions League it's like this is the World Cup it's like when you saw say George Harge or someone like that at a World Cup and then you saw him for his club you know getting another manager the sack because he wasn't you know he'd been bought and he was doing nothing and then Romania would turn up at a World Cup and Haas, you would just arrive and he would just arrive as a different player because it was a World Cup.

8:50I think I've mentioned this before, but Sergio Ramos's mantra, what he used to tell coaches was, I'll be ready in April. And that's Real Madrid for you, isn't it? Yeah. In terms of Pep then, just in a broader sense, we mentioned it with Arnie Slott there in terms of how coaches are seen and things. Pep, we don't know what the future holds for Pep at City. one Champions League win of course in a brilliant treble winning season but if we're now saying there's a big chance of going out of this tie 10 seasons has he underachieved at City in the Champions League? Maybe in the Champions League I'm loathe to judge managers purely by Champions League because it is a cup competition and you could say the same of Alex Ferguson and nobody unless they're completely insane would argue he underachieved at Manchester United but he won two and there's a similarity between him and Pep because both incredibly positive minded coaches who went into European games with that kind of like front foot I'm just going to go and do my thing and win here and it's not always that type of game that you need to play in Europe.

9:58Took Alex a long time didn't it? Took Alex a long time that Manchester United kept getting their clock cleaned in Europe by people that you wouldn't expect and even after winning it the first time they still get knocked out by Leverkusen I think in 2002 semi-final 2001 or 2002 it was when it was at Hampton and that was all going to be you know his destiny oh yeah Porto Monaco I think Monaco did in one year didn't they won all up at Old Trafford scored after six minutes Trezeguet I think it was yeah Trezeguet scored and they got a 0-0 draw because I can remember they got a 0-0 draw out there and everyone's like oh that's smart as hell.

10:40And I remember Arsene Wiener on the Friday going, no, no, always not a good result. He said, oh, one of the coaches got to do a score. So that all comes back then to the idea that actually historically and currently this has always been a tough competition. But we're talking about other teams maybe bringing PSG against Chelsea because Gregor, you mentioned it there, all of us going into the City Real tie, we're going City of favourites. I think I even talked about PSG Chelsea. Our Chelsea have got a chance in this game. PSG haven't quite shown what they're at this season. have we been a little bit arrogant about the Premier League dominance or is this just a one game blip where are we at with it?

11:12I don't think we've been arrogant I think you can misconstrue what the argument is the argument is that the Premier League as a league is much stronger than any other league in Europe and that's still true that's a fact really what you're seeing now is you're coming up against the Premier League team's coming up against super clubs elite clubs in Europe not the very best in various leagues so you're talking about PSG, Barca, Real Atletico Inter are out but Inter are somewhere from Italy are in crisis a little bit Bayern even Galatasaray they spend huge money on wages there's a reason they're drawing all these stars to that league and like spending a lot of money so that's what we're up against now I don't think there's been arrogance and it's still the truth you look at revenues you look at the TV deals you look at the players that are signed you look at the wages again the Premier League just look at the global appeal the Premier League is the strongest but now at this stage of the competition they're coming up against strongest individual clubs in the rest of the continent.

12:13Yeah I think the Premier League is the strongest league but the question is why is it the strongest league and look it's an athletes league these days it's a league of intensity physicality I'm not going to bore on about set pieces but we know what a big part they play it's not a league of subtlety and skill it's not a league of I think any vintage teams I've just done this any of the top teams at the moment will remember as being great exponents of the game it's not a league of guile it's not a league that's got all the best players in it as Valverde and Dembele showed us so I think we've got to be it's a league that because of money and physicality reigns supreme but Florian Verts comes to Liverpool and struggles to settle and everyone shows how brilliant the Premier League is no it shows how physical the Premier League is, shows how quick the Premier League is that's not the same as being the league where the best football's played all the time I said Bayer Leverkusen was a significant result because you saw the team that's probably going to win the Premier League struggle against a side that isn't necessarily going to get into the top four in Germany next year, it doesn't mean that Bayer Leverkusen would then challenge for the Premier League title but you saw Arsenal grinding away in their kind of typical Arsenal fashion and not making a great impression on fairly mediocre oppositions.

13:43I think we've got to be careful what we're looking at this year in the Premier League. And I was almost pleased at these results because I think the league's gone down something of a wrong path. I think there's too much hype around it. I don't know. What do you think the wrong path is in terms of stylistically or an over-focus on physicality. Super intense. Yeah, super intense, super structured, super pleased with itself. And yeah, there was an arrogance about, arrogance, maybe overestimation of all those English performances. You know, two teams changing their first choice goalkeeper for a Champions League time.

14:23Yeah, definitely. You know, the teams going to, you know, City, Chelsea going toe-to-toe with the European champions in their own patch. Nobody was into game management. And to speak to Martin's point, we used to see this from the Manchester Uniteds and other top English sides in a previous era. And then there was an era where the English teams really learned how to play in Europe. But it's almost sort of, I think the Premier League bubble, which consumes everyone's thoughts, has almost made people forget that this is a different concept. One kind of point I would say to that, is there a vintage team in the whole of Europe?

14:57Good point, yeah. PSG, PSG, PSG have been. last season were absolutely world class but they were also very physical they were so direct they were so dynamic they were fast they weren't the same I know what you're saying the physicality in the Premier League is different but I think the style thing as well is like you know look at Barcelona and Real Madrid they're not wowing you I mean one player wowed you one player wowed us they're not a team that wowed you they're diminished from historically Newcastle were the better team on Tuesday I was at the Newcastle game they were the better team Chelsea are a basket case and they went toe-to-toe with PSG.

15:33You know, not by much. Oh, yeah, Chelsea are a basket case. I tell you what, with that, all I would say with that, Chelsea are never in front at any stage in that game. They're always chasing PSG. But Newcastle, the other night, I know it was carnage has been the last 10 minutes, as it always is whenever I go to a football match. But 1-0 to Newcastle, you'd have gone, yeah, that's fair. It wasn't, you know, they weren't robbed. but it wasn't it shouldn't have been 3-0 it wasn't like they hit the bar four times or anything like that but they shaded it on the night and Lewis Hall was very very good against Jamal and there was a lot of positives I wouldn't put a Dina on them in the Nou Camp by the way But what were Newcastle doing in the last minute they were trying to score another goal Absolutely That's what I mean there's a lack of game management and thought and guile Where does that come down do you think is that not just a bit of experience as well like for Newcastle specifically Yeah maybe but I think it comes from playing in this 100 mile an hour competition every weekend.

16:32You think you've got to go, keep going up and down, up and down, up and down. And we also, look, there's a lot of, you know, some of that is incredibly positive. The very fact that people are going, oh, Man City are probably out of it and Tottenham are probably out of it. When you look at that Tottenham performance against that Leicester Go Madrid and you're thinking, I wouldn't have found something to come back from 5-2 against Luton Town at the point of time. I'm going to bring Tottenham in in a second. This is not about Tottenham. But what is incredible with English football is this idea that we never know when we've beaten.

17:16I was at Inter Milan the night that Tottenham went 3-0 down, 4-0 down, 4-0 down and had the goalkeeper sent off and came out in the second half and tried to win the game. And nearly did win the game. I mean, they got back to 4-3 and if the game goes on five minutes longer, they would have scored a fourth. And if it goes on ten minutes longer, they beat Inter Milan 5-4. And you could see, Inter Milan didn't know what was going on. It was like, no, no, no, no, you don't understand. This is meant to be over. We shake hands in the tunnel and we don't beat you 8-0 and, you know, you behave yourself.

17:56that would be what would happen in Italy having 11 10 nutcases who actually thought they were winning it was completely off the radar for it and that's what you get with English football but it produces exactly this sort of daftness that John is talking about there's individual cases to look at you can extrapolate a lot in the bigger picture without thinking about Spurs are an absolute basket case, Chelsea their project has spent 1.5 billion and they've not got a goalkeeper. They're in Liverpool, we don't know why, but are in a shadow of what they're from ourselves last season. These are six clubs, Greg.

18:36That's not a small sample size. That's our six big clubs. There's individual cases and a lot of them have drastic mismanagement. That's not the league's fault. That's the club's fault. No, but that's my point. I mean, if six individual clubs have mismanaged themselves and that's a third of the league and they're meant to be the best clubs, and ergo the league's not as good as we think it is. But Barcelona had a financial madhouse as well. And they're still going to go through. Real Madrid had half the team missing and they're going to go through. That's my point. Also, the point that Michel Platini said about English football and he was talking about the national team about Lions in winter and they turn up in the spring.

19:22There is a bit of that about English football as well because if you look at the way our clubs came through the group stages when you're playing in September, October, November when everyone's at peak fitness and they've had the pre-season and everything they just dominated in Europe and that was that the results were there we nearly nearly got six of the eight which is just ridiculous just remarkable I mean the only one who fell out of it It was Newcastle and they won their knockout game. Was it on aggregate 10-1 or something like that? Nine or eight? Yeah, anyway. But then now we're in March.

20:07Now everyone's been banging their head against a brick wall for six months or whatever. And teams look knackered. Just to be absolutely clear here, I'm not saying the Premier League's awful. I think what we've seen in the Premier League in recent years, we've talked about it on here enough, has been this incredible work by the middle of clubs, this rise in standards across the board. But I think it's an era where the top teams just don't stand comparison with the vintage teams. Drop any Pep Guardiola team of Man City from 2017 to 2024 into this league and it wins it. Drop any of Klopp's Liverpool teams, apart from maybe the first season.

20:47All the way back to Wenger and Fergie? Yeah, drop them in, they win. or maybe they don't because maybe they can't do the track and field competition that they have to enter it's like it's like an era of mismanagement like Spurs Spurs should should get whacked they should be relegated if they've run this badly Man United shouldn't be in the Champions League if they've been run as badly as they have Chelsea should get whacked if they spend one and a half billion and don't you know on up and coming next you know what might be so like that's the way it should be, but it's like that's kind of been a fog that's covered most of the top of the league.

21:26You look at Chelsea and the defence is sort of shambolic in parts, and you think right, if they'd have actually just stuck with what they had there and developed that and tried to work with that, and this is not just this current regime, it resumes. Tino Di Fomento is their right pack, Lewis Hall's their left back Mark Gwyney's their centre half you could probably do something like that you know you might be able to build something like that as a starting position England yeah absolutely you look at the goalkeepers I mean they've signed 25 ,000 players but the goalkeeper signings are Philip Jorgensen Robert Sanchez Gabriel Slalina they're afterthoughts Mike Penn does their afterthoughts yeah I mean we'll come back I want to come back to Chelsea you know they've got a specialist goalkeeping recruitment have they?

22:21it's the bloke who was in goal for Middlesbrough when Roberto Di Matteo scored after 26-7 seconds against them Job might be at risk I would say, I want to come back to PSG Chelsea in a bit more detail but we've obviously gone very broad brush and big picture thinking as we often do on the Thursday episode of the Game Podcast but just on a few specifics, Arsenal Bayer Leverkusen, firstly kick-off routine of the year from Bayer Leverkusen in the second half, absolutely loved it, nearly scored a goal from it, but the penalty is a massive dive, isn't it? Just to check. It's an absolutely stonking dive.

22:53Total dive. Absolute travesty. But then the next follow-up on Arsenal, they will get through in the second round? Yes. In the next leg? Yeah. You'd think so. And then Liverpool-Galatasseri, that's the one... Should get through. Should get through at Anfield. Pit of pressure on Arnislot, probably. So both of those... Should do, but not sure. That would be certain, yeah. Nothing's certain with Liverpool at most. If they don't, that's the biggest alarm bell so far. If they don't. Yeah. And that's when the pressure to my point about this being a significant result, might come back. City, Real, done.

23:24Can't see it. Turn around. Can't see it. Can't see it. But then Newcastle, Martin, huge applaud. It's well played, but you're going to get turned over in the Nou Camp. You'd think so. You'd think so. I mean, one of the things, it was a penalty in the last kick of the game. It was a penalty. There's no doubt about that. But you play everything with Barcelona. You know, I said it in the match report. You play everything. You play their reputation and the legend and their status and it's Barcelona and these are superstars or whatever. So there were just things going on in the game where, you know, a foul by Barcelona is, you know, a free kick.

24:03But then the same foul by a Newcastle player, there's a yellow card. And you're thinking, no, the Barcelona guy did that. five minutes already. He'd be suspended for the second leg if you'd have booked him for that. But that's, you know, there's a lot of that around those two Spanish clubs, I think, in particular. There's a lot of that. It's not that the referees go, you know, it's not that the referees are crooked or anything like that. It's just that these are huge clubs. These are huge players. These are huge names. It comes with a sort of intimidation factor. Eddie Howe deserves a lot of credit for his bravery in this game.

24:42and I thought in the PSG game as well. And I mean, thinking about his season as a whole in this mad season of mad narratives and things, the idea that some Newcastle fans are questioning his position at the club is crackers, isn't it? Yeah, crackers, yeah. Crackers, I think, is the official... I think crackers is the medical definition of questioning Eddie Howe at Newcastle and what he's done for them there. Because the other thing is, they haven't been able to operate as they would have been able to operate because of all the financial rules and stuff. so you know he's not working with what everyone thinks he's working with if you know what I mean yeah absolutely there's plenty more to come we're going to get stuck into Tottenham Atletico Madrid in a bit more detail and look ahead to the Premier League weekend action as well but it's time for a quick break so let's do a question from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz we're veering quickly away from the Champions League action Crystal Palace against Leeds is one of the matches this weekend so the question is who scored the only goal when Crystal Palace beat Sheffield United in the 1997 second tier playoff final, and then in each of the next three seasons finished in the top five in the Premier League with Leeds.

25:45Find out after the break.

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28:00David Hopkins? David Hopkins. You almost forgot it then, didn't you? We'd been chatting so much in the break. But yeah, David Hopkins. Fiendishly difficult questions from Bill Edgar's weekly quiz. You can take part on the Times website. Now, want to pick up our debate that we had in the first half of the show and go back to Chelsea PSG, Martin, and just ask specifically about Liam Rossini. I've been bigging him up on the show, just like his vibe, but like his energy on the touchline. Bit more positive in press conferences than Enzo Moresca. Gives you a few more lines, which as an editor is pretty helpful.

28:26Was this a mistake, though, in this game, in terms of managing the closing stages? but also coming back to a point you've all made already about goalkeepers. He's been swapping his goalkeepers. Jorgensen's come in, Sanchez. And you looked at this game and went, even as much as we think Sanchez maybe isn't the one, he would have been a better choice. What did you make of how this game panned out as you were in the stadium? There's two things with football. It's always the end justifies the means or doesn't justify the means as similar as that. So if you bring La Vie on to show the game up and you end up shipping two extra goals, that really hasn't worked.

29:05I don't know what Liam Delatt was meant to bring, that forward line that Joel Pedro wasn't bringing. I would have thought if you were PSG, you'd have been very happy to see both Cole Palmer and Joel Pedro go off. So that didn't work. The goalkeeper thing, he appears to have made a decision. It does trouble me when to hear a manager say, I will treat the goalkeeper like any other position in the team and I will just pick on a match-by-match basis because goalkeeper fundamentally isn't like any other position in the team because they can handle the bloody ball. So it is a completely unique position in the team and it requires confidence and understanding and all of these things are not really best served if you don't know who the guy is, whether he's going to be in goal the next Saturday.

30:04Yeah. The basic problem, I would say, with Jorgensen and Sanchez is that they can't play football. As in with their feet. With their feet. Right. And that's difficult if you have decided to play in such a way where they see more of the ball than people who can play football. I mean, I don't understand why you keep giving the ball to the worst footballer in the team. It will be like if Brendan McCullen said, what we're going to do, we're going to put our worst batsman in first. And we, you know, we kept going, you know, naught for two, basically. Not that we don't do that anyway. Yeah, I was going to say, wouldn't put it faster than most of the time.

30:45No, that's the way they claim. Wouldn't put it faster than most of the time. But, you know, no one would say, oh, this works. But for some reason, not just Chelsea, so many clubs where they make the guy that can't pass the guy that is the most vulnerable as a footballer they make him sick of the ball Johnny I was watching Real Madrid but I had it on on a laptop would I be right in thinking that there was a point where is it Fofana actually has a go at Jorgensen saying why do you keep trying to play out isn't it isn't it Fernandes who does it I think it's Fernandes after the goal that to be strange to your point of you're telling your team to play out, you'd think but the team themselves are going to the goalkeeper, just kick it away there's a real disconnect there and it shows the guy that's trying to play out either is doing it at the wrong times or isn't it for purpose I'd say this season, broadly speaking, this has actually not been as big a thing as it was in seasons gone by we talked about going longer what's the point of doing this and banging your head against a brick wall, Rosinia has actually upped it, like Maresca did it but they do it more now under Rosinha and actually I'd slightly disagree I actually think Eamon Sanchez broadly speaking are actually quite good at it but they still have clangers in them and the second point you make about them seeing too much of the ball is part of that reason I mean they do see an extraordinary amount in the ball and that one where he's trying to pull it onto his left foot and kind of clip it for the goal and try to clip it in you could just about say the pass was on but like it wasn't when he finally attempted it so the whole logic of it for me is it's gone too far and it's certainly gone too far for Chelsea So if Pep brings Rodri and Bernardo back to start taking those kick-offs a few weeks ago and we all go wow what a great thinker and you know he's realised that when you're playing out you should actually have your best football I was like why are we letting the goalkeepers do it I'm like Mate it sounds a very harsh thing to say they can't play football but what they're being asked to do they can't play football in a way that Edison could for example a passer of the ball the point is those guys are so rare one of the reasons like Robin Roof at Sunderland is going to be sought after because he's outstanding at it and he's still a great goalkeeper but these guys are rare and particularly as we said Chelsea's goalkeeper signings have been an afterthought so like why you're building your whole philosophy around a system that you've massively neglected a key component of.

33:19We want to come on to Gregor's most significant result. Sorry, I was just about to say, Pat Nevin said to me a number of years ago, maybe before Edison really came onto the scene, and I said to him, any goalkeeper that you think could have played as an outfield player or whatever, all of these guys are now on the ball all the time. And he said the only one was Manuel Neuer. He said, he thought Manuel Neuer could have played outfield. He fancied himself every now and again, didn't he? He'd come running to the hard way. Martin, just finally on this game then, we talked about it with Real Madrid.

33:51PSG talked about them being in first gear a lot in this competition so far. They finally upped the levels in terms of particularly at the end of this game, Kravitz-Galia with those goals just kind of going cutthroat. Do they look like a bit more in this game like the team that won it last season? Or do you think there's still frailties there? There's frailties. the two goals Chelsea score shows you what they actually surrendered in that last 15 minutes because I'm not saying PSG are there for the taking but they make mistakes they make mistakes Barcola the space that he left Gusto in for Chelsea's first goal was ludicrous it was a quarter of the pitch before he was a quarter of the pitch away before Barcola woke up to what was going on for the second goal there's a cross field pass that gets cut out by Neto that starts the Chelsea move so they're both mistakes that you look at and go right if they'd have come to Stanford Bridge if they'd have come to Stanford Bridge in touch and by in touch I mean one goal in it you know that fourth goal which is one of the goals of the season you could score that you could still score that PSG win 3-2 and you still get them to Stanford Bridge and go right okay they make a couple of ricks we're in here keep it tight we're still in this but don't concede three goals in the last 15 minutes because then you're dead it happened to Aston Villa there last season if you remember I was just going to say Aston Villa there was that titanic effort in the second leg Concer had a header it was like no one must did it so they give you chances but they're always going to score so good luck yeah absolutely well let's get on to get on to Gregor's most significant result of the midweek matches Atletico Madrid 5 Tottenham 2 we're speaking about goalkeepers obviously with Chelsea in terms of mistakes Antonin Kinski the only story in town rather actually from this one I mean how did we feel about the choice to take him off first of all Gregor?

35:51I've been slightly I don't know slightly slightly different view of it than it seems to be the case anyway there seems to be a lot of outrage about it football's a brutal game he's made he could we have envisaged him playing for the rest of this match and not have another rick his head was completely gone i don't think there's anything wrong with him bringing him off like it's brutal but football is a brutal sport like yes he could have maybe shook his hand and again i'm not quite as outraged as some people about that i think he's he's in the middle of he's got other things on his mind he's trying to rearrange his team you would hope he gave him a hug or whatever in the dressing room and certainly and a lot of players supported him.

36:30But I think it's kind of the chaos at Spurs just now and the sort of general perception of Tudor. It was just like another stick to beat him with. Like, I understand it to an extent, but I don't blame him for taking him off. His head was gone, and he still, after 17 minutes, like, you still have a lot of this tie left. And yes, you're three down, but, you know, you want to do something to change it. And that was the clearest change. Johnny? I think this is where the soft skills of management come in, where Gregor's right, he had to come off in football terms. My question would be putting him in, or rather putting him in, and putting him in in a state where he clearly wasn't mentally prepared.

37:11part of a coach's job is to understand the players and then to affect the players mentality going into matches to motivate them, to give them confidence and Tudor since the moment he's walked through the door at Spurs just has struck you as a very disconnected and quite sort of cold character, yeah it appears Spurs have gone, have fallen for the old fallacy that when you're struggling what the players really need is someone to shout at them you know it's like would you shout at a group of crying children would that would that make them stop crying probably not wouldn't make them any less sad anyway even if they stopped crying so it's that sort of like yeah get get get a brutal sergeant major in well this is the result you know he's he's he doesn't seem to connect with his players he keeps changing his team and i think he's exposed a young goalkeeper um and yeah had had to take him off but his subsequent reaction has kind of magnified the problem.

38:13He's passing through. He's passing through, you see. Once those first few results go against them, he's passing through. This is Ego Tudor, sorry. This is Tudor, yeah. So it shows in many ways the fallacy of the sort of interim manager role or whatever where you've got someone who is not... The long-term future of Tottenham's reserve goalkeeper is not an issue that's going to concern and Igor Tudor beyond the next two months, even if then. And so it's a very fashionable thing, into a manager of this. Oh, this gives us a chance to think. Oh, we must need to. These guys need less time to think because thinking, if this is where thinking's got them, they need to stop thinking and do something else.

39:01Maybe start to take up dominoes or golf or something like that. You wonder where thinking will take them next. That's a good point. You know, I was, when I went out to Paris, I was with Glenn Hoddle for a while. He said, and it's interesting, you know, that manager, he said, in the end, you don't know what to do for the best. He said, because, you know, you might be thinking, I realise that Glenn was never regarded as the greatest man manager. But he said, you're almost thinking, I need to take him out of this to protect him. He said, you know, it's not necessarily a cool thing to have done. He said, because, you know, do you keep him out there?

39:45Do you take him off? Just get him out. Which is great. Which is great. They get beat 8-0 and he's at fault for seven of them or something like that. Do you know what I mean? You would never recover. Just back to Tudor then, Johnny. Obviously, the huge game this weekend going to Liverpool and before this second leg. And then we've talked about it with Gregor on the Monday show. they've got Nottingham Forest in a big relegation clash. I mean, so much conversation around Igor Tudor and you've kind of touched on it with your answers. At least until then. Yeah, well, I mean, he's doing the press conference, we believe, on Friday.

40:16We've had that information from Tottenham. Tom Alnott will be there reporting for the Times. But where do we see this going for Tottenham? And I'm asking you, Johnny and Martin, because we've had this debate on the Monday show quite a lot. Look, I'm not sure why he is here in the first place and I'm not sure why he's still going to be there against Liverpool. Spurs haven't explained it. They haven't communicated their thought process as clubs do. They just make these decisions and tell everyone to live with them. I was sort of awed appointing somebody, appointing an interim when you're in the last 16 of the Champions League with a fairly winnable tie and you can get in the quarter.

40:53What's that saying in the squad? All that European stuff doesn't matter. I mean, it is an opportunity. that in itself was odd if it's all about Premier League survival I mean being honest changing the manager is probably going to you would have got rid of him after this game well I wouldn't have appointed him because I think he's entirely the wrong profile but if you ask me now I think it's not working I remember Steve Parrish at Crystal Palace getting rid of De Boer after three games and it was brutal but it was also an admission of a mistake which I admired Steve for sometimes you've just got to admit you've made a bad mistake just like Tudor taking Kinski out they need to take Tudor out The timing of it to throw him into that game at Let's Go Madrid away I thought was remarkable I mean when Steve McClellan did that with Scott Carson and the thing is and it's probably true with this decision as well there were so many opportunities to make that change McLaren had so many opportunities to make that change he had people around him like Ray Clements Venables was his assistant Terry Venables was his assistant who were saying who weren't sure about Paul Robinson even though Paul Robinson had been Terry's goalkeeper at Leeds wasn't sure about Paul Robinson and they're playing against Israel and they're playing against Andor and he's got people saying we need to change and Steve doesn't do it Steve doesn't do it and it carries on and in the end he makes a mistake against Russia Russia and then Robinson makes a mistake and then Steve changes it and he changes it for a game that is make or break for England qualifying for the European Championship from Scott Carson in I think we had tractor mayhem or something like that at Wembley on the it was brilliant it was another good old days good old days of FA incompetence we had tracks of mayhem and then the torrential rain and stuff like that picture was like a proud fool Gieser making you know playing his first game and you know if he makes a mistake we go out I miss that England I miss that England it was an incredible England to cover I think you're bringing your Scottishness into that rather than your kind of professional situation because if you're not going to win the World Cup you might just have won my complete fools of yourself that's a debate for another day but just coming back to Tottenham and this confidence then you had Mickey van der Ven talking after this game I mean he looks an absolute shadow of the player he was last season Gregor he's supposed to be went into this season oh he's a brilliant player if they can keep him fit are they going to play the two guys that knocked each other barmy yeah well they might not be able to it might be a concussion protocol I mean what would that say if suddenly they played those two guys but then broadening it out with that confidence and going into then the Premier League this weekend not just Tottenham with their big game all the other teams around them West Ham have got a tough game but they're at home against Manchester City um how big is confidence in the psychology of this because Nuno seems to have got West Ham playing we'll talk about them in more detail in a second Forrest have changed managers so many times you don't know who's confident or what but the actually the European sort of question is quite important it could be ahead of that because that game against Forrest is huge like absolutely huge and they've got the second leg on Wednesday in North London like we don't know who's in charge but also what do they do like how do they approach it Forrest have got the second leg against Michelin on the Thursday in Denmark like you know there is a dynamic here where they are going to have to prioritise one or the other really I don't think you can you're going to go into both of these games with your strongest team so like you're right you're just throwing in the bin like European Champions League or for Forrest's case the first European football in 30 years you're just likely going to throw it in the bin to try and survive in the Premier League so the next couple of weeks are going to be fascinating but Tudor, he was brought in to elicit some positivity and I would say with these guys he simplifies things and he's trashed their confidence even further and he's massively complicated things Tom Olnott tweeted just a quick summary of his time positions yeah Pelinha's been in defence Gallagher's been right midfield subbed and dropped Xavi's been left midfield subbed and dropped Archie Gray's played left back for the first time this season Pedro Porras played right of a back three for the first time in his Spurs career played three at the back four at the back three at the back put in Kinski lost four games boom off you go and on top of that how's Vicario feeling like we're worried about Kinski but what has he just said to Vicario he said you're not really very good I'm going to put this kid in oh I need you again looking at the relegation battle in more broad terms as well Johnny how do you see it going obviously not being on the show for a couple of weeks so much changes, we've got West Ham winning in the FA Cup as well, scoring five brilliant penalties by the way we'll come on to that in just a second, how are you seeing it playing out in the next couple of weeks?

46:03It's so weird because it feels like there's actually a lot of form teams now it feels like Wolves are certainly a form team probably are out of it I'm still not ruling Wolves out, I said it on Monday show it would be the maddest thing to happen in a mad season if Wolves pulled that off but anyway sorry Johnny but if no it feels West Ham are kind of becoming a bit of a forum team kind of getting there and Forrest better than they were so yeah I mean Spurs are Spurs are in such massive massive trouble I don't see them at the moment winning a game any game that they need to win do you know I mean when the pressure's on when the pressure's on they've got enough good players that they they might turn up and you know get a 2-1 against Crystal Palace or something like that of course they could well they didn't well they didn't as I said that they actually didn't do that no no yeah okay Bournemouth yeah yeah Liverpool no I don't know they've got good players of course they've got good players but as a team I don't see them winning head-to-heads against Forest and West Ham at this moment in time unless they change something.

47:09And also, the suggestion is that the international break, if there is to be a change, if they press the panic button again, it will be in the international break. But that leaves Tudor in charge for Nottingham Forest. And if there's ever a game where that stadium needs to have some feeling of, you know, positivity or uplift or whatever, It's when they play Nottingham first. Who's Tottenham's most important player? We're talking so much about the manager. Who's the player that could define it for them? Solanke? Van der Ven? Is there a player? Xavi Simmonds? Simmonds? I don't know. Connor Gallagher finally turns up.

47:52At the moment, no, no. Archie Gray looks the best player they've got, to be fair, every time I see him play. They need to win matches. I think they've gone down. Yeah, you said that a couple of weeks ago, didn't you? Yeah. I think, like, you know, I can't... Is that as much about the other teams as well as them? as much about just to look about if they get a thinking it'll be dangerous I can't see who they turn to next too people keep talking about Harry Redknapp he's 79 yeah he's a chelter and they don't yeah and they don't actually I was broadly going in the jungle innit I was thinking when Man United think we're going to have an old club legend they've got a few people that they've managed to turn to and actually a few that they didn't turn to who were in the frame who's Spurs got?

48:32Glenn Hoddle I don't know Ryan Mason Stephen Everson what's he doing Ryan Mason Ryan Mason yeah I'm just listing I know he keeps trending but that says a lot I think that says something too there's nowhere for them to turn I can't see where they turn somebody might you know they should turn the page I think but I don't know what that page is it's this Pochettino obsession as well you see which they can't turn to now no they can't turn to him at the moment but it's this Pochettino obsession which all comes from something I've been banging on about about this ball that wants to be like you know from the very first moment when they sack Daniel Levy and try to sort of make out even on road for the last 10 years and with the budget and stuff like that and i really want to spend a load of money more wins more often it was all this sort of populist bandwagon you know and poch plays right into that yeah yeah but what it leaves you with this season is just a succession of patches yeah you know like we'll put a sticking plaster on this and hope that works out well it's gone well beyond that now just speaking very quickly about confidence West Ham winning their FA Cup tie against Brentford, scoring five penalties.

49:39Mavropanos sticking one in the top corner makes me think no professional footballer at Premier League level should ever miss a penalty ever again. I can honestly say the reaction in my household to Mavropanos stepping up to take the fifth penalty. The only thing I can compare it to is being in the press box when England played... Colombia, Eric Dye. And Eric Dye walked forward. and everyone just went oh for God what are we doing what are we doing they both stick it in the bottom corner and the top corner so obviously people are seeing training sessions that we are not seeing and fair play but it says a lot about what Nuno's done doesn't it that in this game pegged back FA Cup taking it seriously talking about throwing competitions in the bin but it wasn't a feeling that as you say that they were just No no I'm saying they're not they're really in this game took it seriously won the penalty shoot out like West Ham are starting to look West Ham only only the two Manchester clubs Chelsea and Arsenal have won have collected more points in the last eight games Wow I think one of the important things I think has happened at West Ham and it's it's an old thing I mentioned it in the column the other day it's an old thing Nuno talked about um we bought with players and i had to go straight i had to that's what the phrase he used had to go straight into the team well that was because the squad was so weak yeah so slow and it was just well that's what used to happen you bought you bought a player because he was better than what you had and you put him in the team whereas now what happens is you buy a player maybe for 150 million quid or something like that and you go our tactics are so sophisticated that what this bloke needs to do is sit on the bench for six weeks working out you know if he can work out why everyone keeps kicking it up in the air from from kickoff and just giving the ball back to the opposition he's a better man than i am but sit there and watch what we do whereas that was old school that was the sort of stuff that harry redknapp used to do when when there was no transfer a window where suddenly the season would start, the team would be rubbish and in October Harry would go, right, what sorts this out?

52:05We buy a striker and a centre-half and they went straight into the team. Johnny, Greg has gone for Tottenham a couple of times, he said it several times on this show in terms of making a call Martin, you've obviously got the kind of fan interest so it's a bit unfair to ask you and you've said West Ham a lot of times. I've said look while you're in the bottom three, I would always go with the bottom three goes down. I'm going Spurs, yeah. You're going Spurs. You think Spurs, really? I'm worried about Forrest. I think I'd be worried if I was a Forrest fan. I can't see what that thing is, but something could change, and it probably has to change, to give Spurs a fighting chance.

52:36At the moment, as the land lies just now, they're the worst team out of all of these teams. Leeds have had a bit of a blip, but they've got the easiest run in the entire Premier League. They've got loads of home games against Burnley, Wolves and Brighton. Wolves have got a fabulous run in as well. I'm backing Wolves, I'm telling you. I'm still believing. So is your three, Tom? I'm being slightly silly about Wolves but I think Forrest could struggle as well it's the same thing about European football Maranakis wants that European football the temptation has got to be there as well in the Europa League to look at these games and go we should win this, hang on English dominance as well English teams should win the Conference League we should be in the final four of the Europa League that potential, that chance Morgan Gims, Wyatt, Elliot Anderson they've got good players but have they got a striker who's scoring in the way that Chris Wood did?

53:24No They're on four managers. Yeah, and they're on their fourth manager. We've never seen anyone. Pereira's done it before, and they've played well recently. They've played well against Liverpool, but lost. There's something about Forrest that just... Goals are an issue. That actually, I think Tottenham will get a win and then a draw, and what changes it, I don't know. But I see a narrative of Nuno relegating Forrest at the end of the season, which is just absolutely... Forrest's last four games are Chelsea, Newcastle, Man United and Bournemouth. Tough. Tough. Anyway, it's all fascinating, all to play for.

53:52if you've got views on the relegation battle or on the Champions League do get in touch with me tom.clark at the time.co.uk I wanted to finish talking about Kyle Walker who has announced his retirement from international football and he did so via the medium of an interview with Johnny Northcroft Johnny tell us about that chat with Kyle Walker a brilliant career for England and been such a stalwart through such a period of success as well Yeah I mean one of the fundamentals of the last decade for England 15 year international career, 96 caps team of the tournament in the last two years only player from any country to be in that played in two different positions as well in those tournaments he's had an incredible career 19 trophies or something but he's telling me he didn't win a trophy until he was 27 and I think the thing that has always come through about Kyle and was reinforced by speaking to him is what a kind of fighter's mentality he's got how he sees himself, saw himself still as a bit of an underdog someone dismissed from Sheffield United signed for Spurs but then ended up going on loan to Aston Villa he was telling me his first England squad there was this really weird sensation because there were lots of Spurs players in the squad and he was a Spurs player but he didn't really know any of them because he spent his entire time at QPR and Villa on loan you know famously Guardiola comes into the city and sort of says well that Kyle Walker guy can't handle my tactics sort of thing and he ends up being his captain at one point sad about retiring and you know the other thing that came through loud and clear was how intensely he feels about England how difficult he found that decision even though from the outside you might say well you haven't been in the squad for you know most of the season all the season but that's not how he would see it you know he's somebody always driven by I can prove people wrong I can do this and part of him had been thinking most of the season I can still get back in but he wanted to call time as he said for his own mental clarity to draw a line under it maybe to give the rest a chance to move on I didn't really know this but he described this thing that when you're on the long list as a player and the long list I think Tuchel's shortened the long list but it's still 40 odd players you're kind of in a...

56:18So the players know that he knows that he's on a long list? So the way you know you're on a long list is you get a text saying make yourself available or make sure you're available for these international games. A summer record, isn't it? Yeah, yeah, yeah. But as Kyle was saying you don't actually know until two hours before the squad comes out when you get another text to say you're in or not. So you're kind of sitting there with this torture thinking am I, am I? Even if you haven't been for a while you're still part of you thinking you might be. You've got your family going so what are we doing in an international break are we going to Dubai or not that hotel's booked for Christ's sake I'm not going to Dubai no no no no alright so Abbasok in Kyle's case so I hadn't really thought of that aspect but you know for his own sanity and clarity I think he's made this decision as well but you know ask the question if there's an injury crisis and England's right backs are very good but all of them have had their issues Rhys James and Trent and Liveramento So would you play?

57:20And he said, of course. Do we think a little bit underappreciated Kyle Walker and his career? When you talk about that idea that how he started out and how he was viewed by Pep Guardiola ends up being an absolute lock for a manager known for making changes all the time and for England as well. Guaranteed, Kyle Walker. Kyle Walker's in. Kyle Walker's in for England. And also for Manchester City through a lot of their biggest and best success under Guardiola. A little bit underappreciated? I think so. I think so. I think back to the 22 World Cup when he arrives having had groin surgery five weeks before.

57:56It's supposed to take him 12 weeks to come back. He gets back in five weeks. Misses England's first two games. Gets back in the team. And then they're playing France. And we're all writing about, oh my God, Kylian Mbappe versus Kyle Walker. Kylian Mbappe's this, that and that. And what an incredible World Cup Mbappe had. But that was the one game where he didn't get a sniff because Walker's got he's got that boxer's mentality that no one's going to beat me and I don't think the rest of us shared that belief in him that he had himself City sees value now as well when he used to just put him up against Vinicius Junior and go you look after him they don't have that person anymore they tried to make a cushion off he's a good athlete but he's you know he's not quite the same I don't think he was underappreciated by his managers necessarily when Gareth Southgate thought he was the best right back in the world said it numerous occasions Best right back in the world.

58:48And that's why he brought him back. There was never a question in Southgate's mind that if Karl Walker was in any way ready for that, because England knew they were on the collision course with France in the quarterfinals. And it was absolutely in Gareth's mind that if Karl Walker's anywhere near ready, he plays because of Camille and Bappé. Best England right back you've seen, Johnny and Martin and Gregor. I would say. I think so, yeah. I would say. I didn't see Ray Wilson and didn't see much of Phil Neal but I think yeah Gary Neville had a great career but I think Kyle shades it as a player yeah absolutely but really as an athlete I mean as an athlete I mean he I think that's one of the reasons why he's slightly underappreciated some people maybe think you just rely too much on your raw pace and your athleticism and you know you get a player like you juxtapose him with Trent Alexander-Arnold for example and you see he's a player you would say he's classy he's never that player but that doesn't mean he wasn't the most effective footballer in that position and he was.

59:48He's one of the most effective I've ever seen. Yeah, it was a brilliant interview you can read it on the Times website now, just shirts for Johnny's name and Kyle Walker, we'll leave it there. Johnny Northcroft, Greg Oaks and Ann Martin Samuel, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening, we'll be back with the regular show on Monday. We'll see you then.

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