Wastes of money, most versatile player and who's lost their swagger?

0:04Hello and welcome to the game football podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Arsenal's lead at the top of the Premier League is back to six points and it's all thanks to Tottenham and Dominic Solanke as he inspires a comeback against Manchester City. Manchester United kept their winning run going under Michael Carrick but in controversial circumstances as Fulham manager Marco Silva labels the refereeing decisions horrendous. And on today's show we'll also discuss impressive victories for Brentford, Chelsea, Liverpool and much, much more. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today for a packed, packed show We have the senior sports writer and Sunday Times columnist Alison Rudd.

0:40The football reporter who covers clubs in the south of England with a focus on Chelsea is Peter Rutzler. And the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson is with me. As usual, team, there's absolutely loads to get stuck into. It's deadline day. Pete's phone's on the table. It's going all the time. I'm from the airplane, mate. Yeah, yeah, yeah. You need to keep checking. You need to keep checking. We can have live reaction in the studio. But before we get into all the refereeing decisions, managerial pressure, title ramifications, let's just take a moment, shall we, to start on a high and talk about a brilliant goal by Dominic Solanke.

1:14A cross behind him, the flicked leg, ball dropping into the corner of the net, just over Donnarumma after he got a hand on it. Magical stuff, Alison. You were there to watch it. Wasn't it wonderful? Yeah, I know. Real time, you think, what did he do there? What did he actually do there? and then like the rest of the stadium because they have massive screens in the Tottenham Hotspur Stadium the biggest in the world and they played it again and again and it was I'm not sure I can't remember ever being in a stadium and this happening they show the girl and everyone goes ooh and then they show it again they go ah it's like that scene in Toy Story when they go there's the claw it's like it's amazing it's like it's like all they wanted basically was stop the football let's just keep this on repeat let's just show this again and again and again and it felt like such a significant moment because it was a thing of beauty which is what Spurs fans crave and think they have a god given right to have every five minutes but it was extreme beauty it was also vindication for a manager who's been bigging up his striker and saying how important it was to have him close to full fitness, he's not fully fit, match fit yet but when he's there, what a bonus that will be for a team that are beleaguered and struggling for forwards to get goals.

2:35And of course, it equalised in a game where you thought if Spurs lose this, we're going to get back again into the whole Thomas Frank debate. So in every respect, aesthetics, timing, everything about it was perfect. But I honestly, tell me if you've been in a stage where this has happened, but for the whole crowd just to keep staring at the screen going, oh, it was quite remarkable. That's much nicer than what we did in the office yesterday. It was kind of everyone doing a Gary Neville impression. Oh my God! And then there's the panic, initial panic. You're like, oh my God, I hope it's not a Rodri touch that's actually sent it in the direction of goal.

3:13You're like watching the replays being like, no, no, he definitely did do that. He definitely meant it. Absolutely fantastic. Ever managed that in your career, Gregor? I think we know the answer to that. You ever try? Ever try? Probably. And him made his own goal with a back heel? No, he never scored. I've never scored a known goal. Oh, yes, that's true. Never scored a known goal. That's from one of the facts, isn't it? Consummate pro. But the game overall, this was a big moment for Thomas Frank. I did a scorpion kick, actually. Oh, did you? For the paper, before your time, Tom. Christ, what, before I was born or before my time at the paper?

3:41Before your time at the paper. Right, OK, fine. Well done. With Arsene Wenger coaching me. It must dig it out, actually. You did it deliberately. We had time with Arsene Wenger. Or you were trained. You were like, I'm going to do a scorpion kick for Arsene Wenger. Was this before or after Giroud scored one? Before. Oh, wow. Yeah, yeah, yeah. So before Solanke, before Giroud, there was Alison Rudd. It just annoys me you always go to Gregor. You know, I played football. Come on then, tell us about your scorpion kicking. Well, it bloody hurt. Right, so you were trying to do a scorpion kick. Yeah, I was trying to do the goalkeeper version.

4:14Oh, right. See, that's different. It's not different, though, is it? It's still a scorpion. And for some reason, Arsene Wenger said, yes, I'll teach her how to do that. I don't really know why he agreed to it There's no teaching is it? Does Officer know how to do one of them? He does, he does It's about technique isn't it But he didn't care It's a strong memory Because he didn't care how painful it was Because if you don't do it every week It's going to hurt using muscles you don't normally use So I was going oh this hurts He was just like I don't give a This got weird It always happens with this show I'm like let's just buzz off Dominic Salenke and then we're somehow talking about I liked Salenke's first goal what the foul?

5:00it's not a foul I really liked it because of the strength a lot of players would have once he got that opportunity on his left foot they would have shot and Kusunov would have tackled him but he took another step and completely bounced Kusunov away and then cut inside that was brilliant centre forward play Pep Guardiola and Rodri both saying it's a foul It's not for me. Roderick could have been sent off. It's not for me. Gay did kind of almost everything he could because he's facing his own goal. He got a leg in between the striker and the ball. He's not controlling it, is he? So he's placed his foot there.

5:34No, the ball still is to be poked and he did it. I think he does make contact with the ball as well. I don't know why it's not an own goal. That's the other thing. It is an own goal, isn't it? If there was a touch from Slaggy, I didn't see it. It's almost like a goal for a reward for effort. And he's like made the ball move that way. So you're like, ah, you can have it, why not? But this was, we're talking about moments now, but also this was a bonkers game. Oh God, absolutely. Absolutely bonkers. Manchester City on top in the first half. Tottenham looking like the Tottenham that we've seen a lot this season.

6:08Out of ideas. Bissouma making mistakes. You're looking at his formation and thinking, Thomas Frank, what have you done? Second half, we've got Tottenham fans in the office going, they've taken Romero off. Christ, it's Paulinho and Dragosin in the centre half. And they draw 2-2. City got completely lost all over the place. Pep's lobbing on stars left, right and centre and none of it works. It was crazy. Well, a bit of a theme of today's show might be first half versus second half performances and whether managers are geniuses for what they do at half-time or whether they're stupid for not doing what they did for the second period and the first period in the first place.

6:44But Spurs look really uncomfortable with three at the back. Dragerson hadn't started a game for over a year. And it showed. And Palinja, love him, but he's not a centre-back. And they didn't look comfortable as a team. They didn't look like they believed in the system. They looked cowed by the fact there were 11 players injured. They had that vibe about them. And City were like, for the first 45 minutes, City were like the best version of City you've ever seen. they were utterly relaxed they glided everywhere all over the pitch of course of course they did and in a with hindsight you think well what a mistake for not punishing them further I mean there was a couple of good saves but in fact one absolutely amazing save from Turkey but it should have been three maybe four but it was so one-sided and yet and then the weird thing happened because some people were guessing prior to kick-off that Frank would play a back four and have Archie Gray at right back that's going to look really flimsy isn't it but in fact he did that in the second half and it looked really good he played all season there for Leeds he's a good right back it looked good he looked comfortable and I think that gave a message to the rest of the team.

8:16Oh, actually, we're a bit mismatched and patchwork, but let's go for it. And it was just a complete and utter flip. And it's really like chicken and egg. So what came first? The players doing something exciting and positive and the fans getting behind them or the fans getting behind them and the players doing something exciting and positive. It was really hard to judge because the atmosphere changed every three seconds. Sounds like both things can be true. Well, it went from good support to groans to boos to good support to complete silence, utter silence. To complete ecstasy and we're going to win this game.

8:59First powers are caught in this forever cycle of more analysis of the atmosphere in the stadium than the football. The performance in that second half, Gregor, it was remarkable to watch, wasn't it? Alison was in the stadium describing it there. we were watching it on telly the way they came back into the game started being more physical I thought Xavi Siemens as well grew into the game and even when he got that yellow card I think for fouling someone there was just a bit of like come on! There was a bit of energy to it That's all it is It comes back to the old Roy Keane line again it's easy to do that at 2-0 down you've nothing to lose it kind of throws the shackles off until it threatens to get embarrassing there is nothing to lose so yeah it's great and Spurs responded but I don't ever give a team that much credit for performing at 2-0 down I give them credit for actually you know enacting a comeback or coming back to win but for playing well and showing energy and stuff I don't give a team that much credit for that at 2-0 down I think you're right I think Siemens is the biggest kind of positive we're so quick to judge players aren't we when they arrive and everywhere I could speak about it earlier I spoke to Ferdi Carioglu interview and he said he was injured last season and the first thing he said was it gave me a chance to get in the gym because he said the biggest difference between the Premier League and everyone keeps talking about is the physicality and he looks like he's kind of got up to speed with that now and there's no doubt in his technique and his ability so he's a big positive Solanke that's just like transformed Siemens is playing well and Solanke can lead the line that transforms Spurs attack and just quickly on City they used to just keep the ball like when they had the lead they'd just keep the ball you couldn't get it back from them they just don't do that anymore there's none of that sort of aura that sense of superiority it's just gone I was just going to say it's not probably a coincidence that we're seeing the best of maybe Florian Verts recently Xavi Siemens as well both come from the Bundesliga similar positions just a case of getting up to speed I think that's always been the sense that it was just trying to get to a level where they can compete but you're right on City.

11:12I was just thinking back to the crazy Fulham game, which they won, but they do seem to have this bizarre flaw. So messy. Yeah, really untidy. Just that ability to hold games, control them. It's almost like, whereas before, that sort of relaxed demeanour would lead to total iron grip control. Instead, it just becomes so relaxed, they sort of lie down a bit. And they're making all these changes and, you know, Bernardo's coming off, Rodri's coming off before he got sent off. I think that was the kind of vibe I got yesterday, as you mentioned there, Pete, but they're throwing on Phil Foden, all these great players, and it just doesn't look like it gets any better.

11:48It gets worse, if anything. As I said, we had some Tottenham fans in the office who were all nervously going, oh, we're going to lose this 3-2, we're going to lose this 3-2, and actually, they didn't really look like scoring city. They were lobbing the ball into the box and things, but not in a city way. They came close twice. But not in a city way of where you're like... You talk about, like, if you take off who came off there, and Bernardo Silva and Rodri, look at the team it's almost entirely new in the last 12 months like Ait Nuri left back Gehi Kusunov Nunez he's a little bit older Donnarummo Cherki Nico O 'Reilly's just come into the team he's playing in midfield Semenyo like okay I've got early hand up front still but that's an entirely new team they don't have the same like swagger they don't have the same sense of superiority they don't have the same character they lost their personality they had like just such certainty about who they were and their sort of dominance that was them for such a long time that was the Man City era it's not as certain anymore and that's why from 12 months ago a rebuild is not straightforward it's not just there's 500 million boom, these players either have to develop that or you have to actually get more hits than misses because they're not all going to be those big you know, Sergio Aguero, Vincent Kompany Kevin De Bruyne they don't come along every like every time you spend 50, 60 million.

13:11So it's not a quick fix for Man City, I don't think. Yeah, and it's also a part of the reason Martin Samuel writing on the Times website this morning that Arsenal have got nothing to worry about when you watch games like this. The title really should be theirs. They're the only team and people that could worry about it when you watch this game because you're like, City just, if they keep playing like this, they're not going to string enough wins together, are they, to kind of really challenge them at the top of the table? No, I think it will still peak and trough I think they'll go on over the festive period we were saying they look good again Pep looks full of energy but that's what I mean you just don't trust them in the same way I think there will be ups and downs and that won't be enough for them to come close and as I said I think there's a good chance you might finish second Slightly different as well isn't it because he has sort of lent into the physicality of the Premier League if you look at the profiles of players that have come in even just looking at the team now after you've done a rumour in goal and then you've got Kusanov There is a slightly different profile that doesn't maybe allow the same control that we're used to as City.

14:11Semenyo as well as a winger, he's not a technical winger. Brilliant with his feet, don't get me wrong, but it is a different feel to City. So maybe there's an element of trying to tame the chaos a little bit. And if you lean into it, it's quite difficult. Yeah, absolutely. Thinking about City in this rebuild not being easy then and linking it to Arsenal, comfortable win for them at Leeds. And as I say, six points clear at the top now. this might be the third different title winner in consecutive seasons. Are we heading into an Arsenal era of dominance? Or do we think we might get more seasons like this where it's a bit more chaotic, a bit more changing?

14:46I think we can just look and sound stupid for foretelling eras of dominance because we thought Liverpool were having an era of dominance and football surprises you. You could spend£450 million and end up like they are now. So I wouldn't want to be bold enough to predict that for Arsenal. I'd say that Man City will continue to invest until their case is resolved. That's a big still out there. Absolutely. And what happens post-Pep Guardiola is really interesting too. What effect that has. Aston Villa are still trying to take that next step, the next step in fighting against financial rules. Man United, every year we say Man United can't be this bad again.

15:31And they are. although then something crazy happens and they look like they're better again. So yeah, it's hard to predict. All you can say is Arsenal are head and shoulder as the best team. This is sort of the Arsenal era in a way, isn't it? I know they finished second in the last couple of seasons but they are the most consistent team over the last few years. They don't have the trophies to show for it. Maybe they'll get one this year but I suppose you're kind of right although it's kind of hypothetical, isn't it? Which is what Liam Rossini said to me the other day when I tried to ask him about Cole Palmer.

15:59He said, you're asking hypotheticals. it's kind of the job sometimes absolutely, well you mentioned Manchester United there Gregor, let's bring in United and another win for Michael Carrick third on the spin, another game with great goals and some controversy I want to start with the controversy, Marco Silva labelling those decisions particularly around Manchester United's first goal as horrendous, I've got to say it was one of those where when the penalty was initially given, everyone in the office went that's not a penalty, he definitely won the ball but then what do you make Gregor about the decision to then bring it back for the free kick for the initial shirt pull.

16:33Marco Silva suggesting that they're kind of just making it up as they go along, maybe to make themselves not look so stupid for giving the decision in the first place. Well, yeah, there have been a couple of cases where you think this weekend, where you think this is literally what VAR was not supposed to do, re-referring the game. But when you hear that the referee apparently gave the penalty for the shirt pull, which he thought was into the box, then that changes the whole outcome, like the avenues down which the referee can go and take in the next decision. It's not a case of, OK, he thought he fouled him with his foot.

17:11I'm wrong about that. We'll take it back to the shirt pull for a beat free kick. It's changing the shirt pull decision from inside the box to outside the box. And that provides a way for the decision to be correct, even if you don't like it, which clearly Fulham didn't. Also, also distracts one of the fact that they have to defend the free kick, which is also a key part of it. But I kind of also have, obviously, a couple of Fulham, I do have sympathy for them. They've had more goals ruled out than anyone else. I thought he'd be more upset with the Chiquese offside, I think, for the goal. Yeah, which again, in years gone by, would not have been offside.

17:43But also because you think back to the Florian Verts one at Craven Cottage, where we had this three-minute delay and then it was given and the line was, well, there's five centimetres of tolerance. there wasn't 5cm of tolerance there so I mean there's a lot of unhappiness at Fulham they're going to have to release the audio of the VAR discussion it's further down the rabbit hole no but I think Marcus has a very good point and also it's not this is not you're not allowed to give a decision that's just a free kick decision because of VAR it's against what VAR was brought in for I can understand completely why he's livid it should have been a goal kick or a corner it should not have been a free kick free kicks have nothing to do with VAR well by the laws of the game and the sort of directors of VAR this was correct but you have to take John Brooks and what happened at Stotley Bar at their word that he was given the penalty for the shirt pool and not the not the tackle that's the important sort of point to make but I just hate that we're having these conversations all the time and that sorry no no we have to have it we have to have it because it's it's a nonsense and every weekend every weekend you have you just have you're just going oh god the Villa ones this weekend which was 19 seconds and that was the same phase and I think he's correct it's just why does that why does that take so long well it's also you've looked and you're watching and going that's out but then even in the game this morning Peter Walton's saying well if you can't definitely be sure it's out you're re-refereeing a situation that happened quite a long way back that no one called at the time I just don't like the fact that you're allowed to cancel or chop off a goal for something that happened 19 seconds ago I just don't like whatever the eventuality I think that's bad for the game I've said it before I think for me the benefits of VAR are like no way outweigh the damage it's doing to the game.

19:51Now we're on YouTube consistently. I think you need a T-shirt, don't you? At VAR out. Just wear it all the time. It can be part of your kind of subtle campaign. There used to be quite rare people saying that. I think there's more and more people now who are coming over to that. There's definitely an implementation thing. The gripe I have with it is the way that it's applied a lens to a rulebook that's designed to be grey. It's intrinsically grey. There are so many subjective aspects to the laws of the game. Handball, for instance. Handball were in a total mess over and a lot of that is to do with VAR when in reality, if you're a referee, you should be able to assess when you're there, the circumstances for Handball.

20:26Have they given themselves a mess for advantage? Yeah, I mean, you know, Nico Williams really, you know, 50-50, that was Handball or not. You're possibly thinking that VAR affected his reaction. He was going to start going down like he'd had his head or something and he went, actually, this is a waste of time. A very poetic description of VAR, that one, isn't it, from Peter Rutzler. The other day we had a mirage of jeopardy and then we had, you know, putting a lens on a rule book that's meant to be black and white is actually great, lovely stuff. But it's true. It's very nice of them. Enjoy listening to a Times podcast, can't you?

20:55I still think there is a place for it. No, there's not. There are some extremely, like, terrible mistakes that, actually, I'm talking about Fulham's, Josh King's one's come into mind, which was fine until VAR gets involved. But, like, percentage-wise, it clearly improves the number of correct decisions. No, I have a problem with that, too, because it's all decided by a key match incident panel, and a lot of them are subjective, but then it goes down in the sort of analysis of history as this many decisions were right or like corrected by VAR. Yeah, well, I don't disagree with that because that goes back to my previous point that it's all subjective anyway.

21:31But there are moments. No, no, no, hang on. The VAR came in because to stop, you know, horrendous mistakes, right? But there are very few horrendous mistakes and there are a hell of a lot of marginal decisions that if you're watching a football match where there is no VAR, everyone moves on very fast really quickly as a human your brain adapts to it perfectly and you realise life is sweeter I think we should give humans more credit I think we should say that the linesmen and the assistant referees are actually really good at their job, the referees broadly speaking are good at their jobs and actually I think now you could give fans the benefit of the doubt and say if we took it away they would be able to accept it Premier League fans in the modern day era on YouTube.

22:18I think you could, if you just... Being angry about stuff, no chance. Surely not. Park social media. This is a disgrace, get it out of there. Park social media, you can shout into the window all you want, but the fans at the stadium... We do it every week, twice a week. Fans at the stadium, and actually, when everyone just accepts it, fans more generally, I think, would accept that VAR... Fans in the ground would. You're never changing the digital aspect. With VAR, without VAR, you're going to get your siloed conspiracies. But it's actually amplified by VAR. it's not as if every VAR decision everyone goes oh thank goodness for VAR we've got it right now people will analyse it again my favourite thing about working with football journalists is how they always never want to speak about VAR but are very very good at it absolutely that's a key thing of being a football journalist let's come back to the football then because I think the other reason why Marco Silva and Fulham fans would be rightly angry about this game is that they played brilliantly they were excellent they're bloody good Fulham aren't they more shots more corners got to be one of the most underrated teams in the Premier League and underrated coach as well.

23:13Yeah, absolutely fantastic. Is he underrated? I think most people... In terms of the conversations we have... Not on this podcast he's underrated because we have Alison Rudd here with us who's part, you know, as well as being... But if you take the general conversation... Marco Silva, thank you. General football conversations, we always talk about Alba Glasner, Tiriola, Thomas Frank. Silva doesn't get that mention. No, I agree. That's probably because he has been at different Premier League clubs before and it's just sort of accepted and they haven't had those marquee moments. Yeah, I agree. But he's done a good job.

23:40I think he's definitely underrated. You think he's perfectly rated, do you, for where he is? Talks too much about referees. Eighth? I'm still not entirely sure how good he is, yeah. Fulham are eighth? What do you mean? That's how good they are. Yeah, I think Fulham are really good and they've been good to watch. But I think you do have to remember, I think he's learned, he's sort of learned how to operate in the Premier League. It took him a while, which is fair enough. But Hull and Everton wasn't a bed of roses. He took Fulham in the champ. more admiration for that. He took a fool in the championship, we should remember, and brought them up to get another shot in the Premier League.

24:15And I think he's far too feisty in front of the camera and stuff. And I think if we're talking about getting a big job, it would just be like... Well, that's a different question because I would agree with that. I think that's probably one of the things that would hold him back is the communication side of it. Well, as an editor on a busy Sunday, thank you for being feisty, Marco, because it gave us a good storyline to talk about. Manchester United, though, another win. A win in Fergie time, maybe not fully convincing. in this game but there's lots to like about the Michael Carrick era Bruno Fernandes looking that brilliant number 10 again Kobe Mainu third game on the spin Casemiro's even playing well even though he said he's going to leave Sesco with a great finish when he comes off the bench Mateus Cunha making me look like an idiot for slagging him off a couple of weeks ago with another great goal it might not be completely convincing Gregor but it's good fun Casemiro a bit like Xavi Siemens but except he's taken three years to get to grips with the physicality of the Premier League no he was good first season then he disappeared and now he's came back No, he's been really good, hasn't he?

25:10I mean, there's a few reasons for that. He's not got vast open space around him. He's got Kobe Mino beside him. And he's just got a bit more of a balanced-looking team around him. But yeah, there's been a lot of positives about Man United. The biggest one is just the atmosphere change. The joy at the end. It just seeps out of every pore of every person, every player, every blade of grass. It is phenomenal. You can accept all this stuff. and Carrick pointed out after the match that Fulham were a really good team and everyone spoke about this after beating City and Arsenal that this is the real test now teams that will sit back you've got to be the main he was like Fulham aren't that team that was not the challenge and we made the players fully aware of that United were sitting back quite a lot in this game but Old Trafford can accept that the other team can have periods of a match or you can even be second best for large periods of the match if you still show the intent and you still show the drive and the intensity and the will to go and find a winner in the 90-whateverth minute.

26:13It's also as well the joy, it helps encourage the players to do joyous things. Because Bruno Fernandes rolling that dummy in the 95th minute to create, that's outrageously good and also outrageously brave. Because I think if it was Calvin Bassi who just nicks the ball, then 3-2 doesn't happen. And just having Fernandes in that position to do those things is quite simple, isn't it, really? But Man United fans must be looking at it and thinking Ruben Amorim was like a bad dream. Because you just look at it and you're like, well, this all makes sense. Martinez, Maguire, you've got Dallow, Luke Shaw, two midfielders, Bruno up there, attackers.

26:49Brilliant, this all makes sense. I think that's probably the biggest criticism of Amorim. Aside from all the tactical stuff, which I didn't necessarily agree with, but in terms of atmosphere and just sucking the soul out of the place, that's what happens if there is that constant negative reinforcement about the team because it's a confidence game like Dorgu is such a good example I know he's injured but amazing when he scores that goal against Newcastle the transformation from this sort of timid could he be alright left back to this guy's unbelievably good you know but that's that's the difference and then you get Fernandes who's doing that in those areas Fernandes I'm sure will be fine anyway and probably would consider doing it any time but that's a mood shift and whether that's sustainable you know we get carried away with you know sort of the Man United train oh my god here we go that's the catchphrase can't get carried away but that in the short term that for me anyway is such a massive but with this uncertainty of the season they've got to be looking good for the Champions League yeah but hang on hang on we were all at fault because we're all part of this there were times when Amarin would say things like it's the worst Man United team ever and people like us would say well you know he's right isn't he and so yeah but we can say he's right he doesn't have to say No, no, exactly.

28:02But the thing is, of all the people, there's one person in the world you don't want saying that. It is the manager. That's all you have to do as the manager of Man United, is go in and that's the bit you ignore. I think we did point out that it may not be constructive for the manager to be saying that, like when Amram said it. Yeah, there are so many examples of them too. It became remarkable. That's the point. The fact is, he said, you can feel anxiety every time he touches the ball. Like, what do you think that does to a player? Yeah. When your manager's saying that. and you're not even in the team.

28:32Anyway, we said we didn't want to talk about VAR. Now we're punting Reuben Amorim about six weeks after he's left. How long can we keep going about Amorim? Probably for the rest of the season if Manchester United keep climbing the table under Michael Carrick playing 4-2-3-1 and looking really good. What's the stat? Three games on the trot for Carrick when he's barely got out of bed and Amorim took him for 12 months or something. But they're in fourth, 41 points, five points behind Aston Villa who were beaten at home by Brentford. A brilliant Brentford performance. down to 10 men 7th Keith Andrews manager of the season it's obviously Arteta if they win the league but it's got a case hasn't it a huge case amazing amazing story Alison you talk about moments when we said things that turned out to be nonsense we all were casting doubt over Keith Andrews at the start of the season this was amazing no I hold my hand up I just didn't think Thomas Frank going and his closest coaching staff going as well and his best players and his best players and knowing that Andrews was not first choice Andrews in stark contrast to Amram exuded positivity throughout and from the very first press conference which I was at the cam with him sitting there and talking about how good the team are and actually not knowing how good they could be things like that you're like come on mate you still just lost all your goals your captain this is remarkable and the balls of Brentford to do it but that probably does transmit to the players I interviewed him and I said the players probably had a bit of a surely they must have had doubts as well about you like you were the set piece coach and he's like yeah they probably did but then it's up to me to be good and show them that It's probably why they then can keep a clean sheet against Aston Villa with 10 men for so long because you were watching that game and Villa were just you know Morgan Rodgers blessing was getting the ball every two minutes and going I'm going to shoot because I'm Morgan Rodgers and I score great goals all the time that doesn't quite work like that all the time Morgan but it was an absolutely amazing performance from Brentford to keep that clean sheet.

30:31No, Villa really hurt by injuries, aren't they? Midfield, no McGinn. Yeah, I hate to admit it, Gregor did say this a few weeks ago when I was getting very excited about Aston Villa, he was like, a few injuries, they might be in trouble. Yeah, the one, all you needed to know about Villa's slim chances of challenging for the title was the shot of McGinn with his walking stick, his crutch in the stand, he thought, no, they're not going to do it. And Tielemans now too, I mean, that's, like Luis obviously I think is a good sign in but it showed that they had to chuck him straight in and Leon Bailey who came back and Abraham like all of them are straight into the team Watkins is out even Inanna was only fitting up for the bench and he's had injuries so particularly midfield and Bubba Kamara they've just been decimated so it's it's going to be tough for them yeah we'll see whether they might throw in a few panic signings at the end of deadline day wanted to talk about some signings as well and link it to the Crystal Palace 1 Nottingham Forest won Jean-Philippe Mateta potentially we think on the way to AC Milan you'll probably be listening to this and know whether he has gone to AC Milan but deal in the balance as it stands but Jorgen Strand-Larsen we think very close to completing a move to Crystal Palace one goal and one assist 50 million quid interesting one isn't it?

31:44It's one of those it's one of those ones where you go oh my god he's had a good season and then it's just that's the basis I suppose I mean I kind of feel the same about Mateta joining AC Milan like yeah you know Tony always says he's the most improved player you've ever seen but he still had that big period before he improved and he sort of slipped back into that this season a little bit so yeah that's another head-scratcher for me like I hope he does well but but Strand Larson potential he's shown glimpses at Wolves you know this is also an interesting one he could have gone for even more money in the summer Newcastle we believe we're looking at him and things like going for around 45 to 50 million pounds now to Crystal Palace interestingly because you're stepping into a massive unknown with Palace.

32:26Obviously, Glasner's going, but just the way this squad looks now, I mean, it's so, so different. You don't, yeah, to commit, it makes it very difficult. Recruitment becomes very, very difficult if you don't know what the coach will be. Yeah. Who the coach will be, sorry. I think it's probably like a slight jump up for him, isn't it, to go from a team that are almost certainly basically relegated to a team that might get relegated if the bad run keeps going, but probably won't. So at least he'll be in the Premier League next season, even though he probably doesn't, he doesn't know who his manager is.

32:53he doesn't know who his teammates will be and doesn't know how good they'll be. Maybe it's just going to have another Wolves next season. Who knows? Hopefully not for Palace fans. Just another reminder that, you know, for players who don't kick up a fuss and, you know, push through the move they want so he could have been joining a Champions League team in the summer, he's now looking at teams battling relegation.

33:14Again, I don't have any problem with people trying to take some agency over their career because, like, it's entirely out of his hands where he's ending up now. Wolves losing their star striker and beaten at home by Bournemouth another goal for junior Kruppi 8 in 21 appearances for the 19-year-old midfielder Pete Orme are certainly going to be talking about Chelsea buying him in the summer and the way things are going it's a remarkable I mean Bournemouth just do this over and over again don't they it's incredible yeah it was at Lorient wasn't he which is also owned by Bill Foley's Black Knight group I remember when they signed it was last January that they signed him and then loaned him back I think it was quite late that they did it and those conversations about them signing him were very much, this kid is really, really good.

33:58Yeah, they were, weren't they? And he's proven it much quicker probably than maybe they even expected, but he's just a fantastic finisher. He's a real clinical poacher with fantastic technique in front of goal. And he's doing it without very many minutes. No, that's it, isn't it? It's astonishing. He comes on. He's been coming on as a sub in often very difficult circumstances when they're behind. and he just pulls something out of thin air. It's astonishing. All of the fans adore him. Yeah, well, let's hope he stays there for at least until the summer. No panic deadline day moves for him in January.

34:32We're going to take a quick break. We'll talk about the rest of Saturday's games when we come back, but I've got a little quiz question for you to take us in to the break. Aged 27 years and 17 days, Arsenal midfielder Declan Rice became the fifth youngest player to reach 300 Premier League appearances. Can you name the other four? Find out after the break.

35:02Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Peter Rutzler, Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson with me. I'm delighted to say, maybe for the first time in quiz question history, that you all chimed in there. The team effort to give me the answers to the question. the four other players after Declan Rice who are the youngest players to reach 300 Premier League appearances we've got Wayne Rooney James Milner Gareth Barry and Raheem Sterling so there's one for when you're in the pub this week listeners let's talk about Chelsea West Ham Alison you said in the first half of the show that maybe the theme for this Monday's episode of the game podcast is the games of two halves nothing embodies that more than Chelsea 3 West Ham 2 Pete I've got a friend of mine who's a West Ham fan so we're always kind of chatting in the group trying to either support or make digs and things about our own teams and things like that.

35:512-0 West Ham, all the lads are flying in, going, the Hammers, the great escape's on. My poor mate was like, you ruined it, you jinxed us. But this game was crackers, wasn't it? Yeah, yeah, very much. Tale of two halves, definitely. I mean, Chelsea were so bad in the first half, like, it was abysmal. Was it more Chelsea bad than West Ham good? No, I think it was a combination of both, to be fair. the way Aaron Wan-Bissaka it's interesting with West Ham because they've lost Lucas Paquitar who's gone to Flamengo he's not played in the last four games and in the last four games some of their key players have looked terrific like Crescensio Somerville has really stepped up he's scored three and three Matias Fernandes was fantastic in midfield playing against Moises Caicedo and Enzo Fernandes granted they still look a bit jaded to me I think there's a few in the Chelsea squad who really don't look that sharp at the moment he was running the show I mean the pass he plays for the second goal, I think.

36:46Yeah, Fernandes drops deep, plays the pass to Bowen and Wan-Bissaka then underlaps and great finish from Somerville. These players have suddenly stepped up and it just felt like, oh, they look a bit more confident now. This looks a bit more like a Nuno Espirito Santo team. There's more to them. The flip side was that Chelsea couldn't be that bad in the second half. I mean, their left side was just completely overrun. And yes, that was Bowen and Wan-Bissaka, but Garnaccio had a terrible game really really poor the ball would be shuffled out to him on the left hand side and it was almost like Fernandes was like do I have to keep playing him the ball because it's just either going to get lost or it's coming back to me he was done twice not tracking Mambisaka there was a real lack of intensity and I've picked on Garnaccio it wasn't just him Batis Shille had another poor game I mean both of them were hauled off at half time at least Ruben Amaran got that right about Garnaccio he didn't get much else right but at least he was right about Garnaccio So, I mean, and then, you know, Rosinha then makes three changes, makes three changes at halftime, brings on Marco Correa, Jao Pedro and Wesley Fofana.

37:49And all three of them have a huge impact on the team. And it reinforces one of the criticisms about Chelsea's flaws, which is that there is a group of players at Chelsea that if you take quite a few of them out at the same time, they really struggle. And I put Fernandes and Caicedo into that. So run me through that exact group then. So then you've got Marco Correa, you've got Wesley Fofana. I put Trevor Chalabra in there. He did start this game. Rhys James? Rhys James, definitely. Gio Pedro increasingly. He's looked a lot better actually since Rosinia's come in, playing with the intensity that we saw at the Club World Cup because he was brilliant in Naples.

38:27And then again, came on, put himself about in a way that Liam De Lappe really didn't. He's clearly struggling. Didn't really have much of an impact in this game. Cole Palmer starting and playing the full game? How are we looking on fitness, freshness? He's just not sharp. He's just not near the Cole Palmer that we'd seen before. He's a doppelganger, isn't he? It almost feels like that to an extent. Does it look like he's playing within himself, like a fear of an injury? Obviously there's been so much about his fitness and injuries and things. It feels more like sharpness, which is understandable, given he's had hardly any football at all this season, and the football he has had has been with pain.

39:10He's had this groin issue. We're still not completely sure that he's over it. Liam Rossini said after the Napoli game, he's fully fit, so we'll see him on Saturday. But you are seeing Palmer playing within himself at the moment. So it is very much a wait and see. So why do you think Rosina started with the players he started then? Rotation. Do you think it was his choice or do you think he was told he could play? We know that they're very strict in terms of player minutes. So he was told to start with that team, do you think? Doctors picking the team again. I think you've also got to balance the fact that they're playing Arsenal on Tuesday night and they've got in a semi-final that they want to try and overturn.

39:55I think the nature I think the choice of players who he's left out I think he could have done it slightly differently because in midweek the back line he played against Napoli was really makeshift it was very experimental he played just one recognised centre-back in Trevor Chalaba put Rhys James next to him and it was rubbish but that was another game again where he needed to call on substitution when he had to change the game as Alison alluded to is you're like you either make yourself look good for being proactive or you make yourself look stupid for not picking the right team in the first place Or he's got permission to make the changes he needs to make if it goes wrong, if he's picking the team that he's told to pick in terms of fitness and rotation.

40:33But there is also a necessity to do this because this is a team that hasn't had a pre-season. So, I mean, they have a squad of players and they should be using them. And I think that's a pretty fair point. It's not a good squad. That's the big thing when you spend at one and a half billion. You're still playing Benoit Badia-Sheely. He was just bad. So, like, and I've said it again, I'm talking like a broken record, Trevor Child, I think he's been great, but again, they tried to flog him. They tried to get the money for him. He's been their most consistent defender, hasn't he, basically? He might go to the World Cup, but they tried to flog him because he's worth a lot of money.

41:12Pure profit. Pure profit, yeah. They're selling Tyreek George for the same reason, I reckon. He's probably not that much different to a lot of the players that have come and gone in recent, last couple of games. Well, that's because I don't think And the impact that Gittins and Garnaccio would say that they would have made more of an impact than George had. I mean, George has still got a long way to go in terms of his development. And when will Gittins learn? Unless he wears his mittens, he's not very good. It's true, actually. If you actually analyse the games he's played with Mittens. He went off injured in this game.

41:40And Gittins without Mittens. I'm genuinely going to make you write that piece, please. Gittins with Mittens gives defence his kittens. Thank you very much. You've got to laugh at our producer Neil for that one. and that is a big, big moment on the game podcast. So where are we going with Liam Rossini? Who knows, Tom? No, where are we going with Rossini? They've got six wins out of seven. He needed a good start. I mean, the fixtures have not been too difficult. I think Napoli midweek was really important. I think the nature of this game can also be important. It's still hard to judge because of the way the performance has been mixed.

42:16I mean, we talked about Brentford earlier. Brentford came to Stamford Bridge and should have won that game. They were the better team, really good on the ball, which really impressed me about Brentford in a way that I hadn't been before. Just not clinical enough. And Chelsea's quality told and they took their chances when they came. So we have, performance-wise, it hasn't been a lot, but he's not like he's had a lot of time to actually change very much. He's had games every three days. So style of play is probably pretty similar to Maresca. I think there are things he'd like to change. but he's got he had to start quickly because of how disillusioned the mood has been at Stanford Bridge and you still got a sense of that you know half time the crowd was pretty loud booze and understandably and he came out and said I would have booed us as well yeah so it's it's one of those way it's the start's brilliant he's doing really well but it just takes a couple of results it just feels like it's one of those that's on and it's sort of it doesn't have that concrete foundations which it's going to be hard to build for the rest of the season I mean it's a difficult challenge Plus how do you ever really truly judge a head coach when they're mandated to only play a certain certain players a certain number of minutes How do you really judge them?

43:30I don't know that's always going to be the case and they might come back to a certain point like a really smart guy and he knows the landscape he knows the structure he knows what the rules are when he takes the job there'll still come a point down the line if he's rising above that and doing well and even more players and he's making it work and he's starting to maybe even compete for the title something that will undermine him and he'll get pissed off by it. So unless they change their big idea then this is probably a cycle. Yeah, a running theme of the season perhaps who would be a football manager?

44:08Probably me to be fair for all the millions of pounds that you get. Let's talk about Liverpool against Newcastle Another thrilling game on Saturday and signs glimpses, more than glimpses, I would say that Florian Wurtz and Hugo Eketike are starting to gel for Liverpool. An impressive win this one, Alison. Yeah, I mean, Newcastle started, their plan was to be very physical and bully Liverpool and it worked for half an hour or so. They were on top and really going for it. and then they ran out of steam a little bit and then the technical ability, particularly of Wurtz and Eketike, came to the fore and they were, I mean, they're mates and you can tell they like each other and they understand each other's movement and what will happen.

44:55So they could become one of the league's great double acts, I think, that relationship. Only one problem, though. What do you do when the 125 million... Well, that was my other strong feeling. Maybe I won't be honest about all my feelings in this game, but my other strong feeling was it just makes you realise what an absolute waste of money that signing is when Liverpool clearly need defensive cover and midfield cover and could have been, you know, all that money, what you could have done with it. It's just, ah, Liverpool are blessed with attacking options now. So much so that you sometimes feel like it's a headache for slot knowing how to still fit them all together and keep Mo Salah happy.

45:38And it's a juggling act because there's so much... The last thing you need if you're Liverpool manager now is a very, very expensive, prove we've made the right choice to spend this money striker in Isak. Because he also dictates a completely different style of play, as we said, when he was fit beforehand, didn't he, in terms of playing those balls into him like Murphy and people did for Newcastle before. Whereas you've got Verts and FK linking... You're not going to get those little patterns, no. you're not going to get them so it's I think he's I think he's got a bit of everything Isak I think I don't think that's the big challenge I think the headache is like you can only play one of them really one of all three no not one of all three of them or one of Eketike and Isak Eketike and Isak and Eketike has been brilliant outstanding like surpassed expectations I heard I heard Wirtz actually in an interview you gave saying like obviously they knew each other from the Bundesliga they'd swapped shirts like they were on decent terms before and they've become friends he's like I was surprised I didn't know he was that good until I signed and we saw him in training he's been yeah that finished the toe poke brilliant that could go so badly wrong like it's going to fine margin finish and he just you know brilliantly still Liverpool's attacking still seems wild to me though it's not like you know we're talking about wild how like a bit frenzied and frantic in the final third it's like for a team that like you know seeking control there's a lot of a lot of turnovers a lot of you know trying things and giving the ball away trying those little first time triangle things at really rapid pace particularly through verts around the edge of the box and it going wrong I'm not saying that's necessarily a bad thing but it's not really what Slott was kind of trying to move towards it's still quite wild old boring Arnie Slott as we kept hearing about last season as they walked to the title I mean can I also just say very quickly why I'm so upset about the brilliance of Jurian Timber this season at right back for Arsenal because were it not for him I think we could have a good case for Dominic Saboslai being one of the first players to ever be picked in two positions in the team of the season at the end of the season he is amazing at right back and like he comes out after the game and gives questions he's like I don't want to play there I really don't want to do it I want to be bossing midfield did you see him in his Tommy Hilfiger outfit though I didn't no oh my god good or bad all the Liverpool players were kitted out oh yes I did hear about this and they arrived and most of them looked a bit sheepish and a bit embarrassed and some of them, the clothes did not suit them.

48:06And you're thinking, this is just embarrassing. And then in strolls Dominic looking like the best male model you've ever seen. He owned it. Go to Timesport on YouTube to find Alison Rudd blushing about Dominic Saboslay in Tommy Hilfiger. Gregor, we've talked a lot about Liverpool's defensive troubles this season. Looks like they're trying to solve that problem with the potential signing of Jeremy Jacquet,£60 million defender, set for a Liverpool medical report. Paul Joyce on the Times website now, the Wren centre-back, set to join the champions in the summer transfer window. Potentially an exciting move for the defender, but they need him now, don't they?

48:44Yeah, Wren weren't going to let him go unless they could keep him for the rest of the season. Really good defender. It was interesting because obviously Chelsea wanted him and they've beaten Chelsea to his signature, basically. I've been told that there's sort of less competition at Liverpool in terms of the pathway might be a bit clearer which is pretty self-evident really Manager picks the team at Liverpool as well which helps But with Jacquet because obviously the question when I was looking at it from a Chelsea perspective was well is he going to be another Axel de Sassi who's obviously bombed out and might go to West Ham today by the looks of it or Badia Shille who has obviously been given a glowing recommendation by Gregor Robertson earlier He's tough, bad.

49:25Sorry, that was a bit much, wasn't it? But the feedback is that he's better than the two. Right. In terms of his all-round profile is pretty perfect. But obviously with Chelsea, the conversation was, can you get him in now? Which Ren wouldn't allow to happen. But there was this sense that he probably needed another step. He needed that sort of another load of minutes. He's only had 30 top-flight games for Ren. so it is a lot of money to spend on him but having another six months playing for them actually will be beneficial to Liverpool rather than bringing him in now yes absolutely I think it makes complete sense but yeah the recommendations are very positive but like with any of these players when they step over they do need that adaptation I mean William Saliba was pointed out to me as an example because Saliba I don't know whether Arteta took to him immediately or not but he then had those loans went back to NETN went back to Marseille and then comes into the Premier League.

50:22He's seen as that kind of, you need that kind of progress, but maybe he'll be quicker. Yeah, more exciting times for Liverpool. Let's finish with a look at Brighton 1, Everton 1. Firstly to mention David Moyes. Don't we love David Moyes? Yes. Friend of the game podcast, David Moyes as well, talking about being booked for his lovely little jiggy, jumpy celebration at the end. Looking a bit like your dad, let's be honest. He went really Glasgow and he's thinking, like, not a mean? Yeah. You're going, what is that? Not a mean? Well, these were his comments after the game, talking about how ludicrous it is that he was booked for celebrating his team 97th minute equaliser.

50:57He says, we're killing it. The managers can't come out of their technical area to celebrate a goal. Knee sliding, do things which give you people, the media, quite a bit to talk about. Asked if he would do it again, Mois replies, I bloody will do it again. Actually, if I'd been a bit more mobile, I might have done a knee slide. That would have only got me a yellow card as well, so I might as well have gone the whole hog. I mean, he's not wrong, is he? Talk about a killjoy. The referee, the officials are going, excuse me, David, that's a yellow card, I'm afraid. The interpretation of the rules is completely wrong.

51:28So you get managers like Arteta who encroach out of their technical area and that actually has an impact on the game and on the refereeing of the game and on the vibe of the team. It's actually breaching the laws of the game and that should be booked more often. I think he's been booked once for it. Whereas David Moyes, he doesn't impact the game at all or affect his players at all just to go on the pitch slightly in delight. You need a different law for it. There should be no law. Just no law. It's just common sense, isn't it? Just no law. That's what used to be the case. It's the same with players celebrating.

52:03This whole thing about taking his shirt off is going to incite something in the stadium. I think we've moved past that. If someone goes really mad... It might if it's Dominic Sabosla and Alison's there. If someone goes really mad and it's OTT and it's like, right, okay, you know, chill out now, mate. Then, okay, book them. Just for Tainan to take off your shirt if you scored like a last-minute winner or whatever, it's nonsense. Let's just have a good time. No, I mean... Let's talk about Brighton very quickly because, Gregor, you mentioned it in the first half of the show you interviewed their full-back, Ferdi Kadhioglu, who we both fell in love with during Euro 2004, 2024, sorry, and then when he joined last summer, didn't quite, as you say, get all the game time.

52:42but now as we labelled him on the Times website at the weekend potentially got the accolade of being one of the Premier League's most versatile players Yeah, I think it's taken longer than, as you say, everyone well, we all did and I think a lot of people loved watching him play for Turkey in the Euros sign for Brighton, like, oh this is an exciting sign and then most of his season was really decimated by a toe injury and he did surgery and then this season he's gone to the team and Brighton fans have belatedly seen what they've got. Because he's played most of the season left-back, but the last two games he's moved over to right-back.

53:22He's played right midfield, depending on formations, he's played right midfield, left midfield, right wing as well, and left wing. And I looked back through his... This is not new as well. When he started out, he was a number 10 midfielder, then sometimes played in the wings. but it's not that uncommon that players are moved positions from being in the youth team whatever in academy to moving into senior football he's done it in senior football if you look back during his senior career he's played 88 games left back 56 as an attacking midfielder 45 as a right winger 42 as a right back 27 as a left winger 24 as a right midfielder 21 as a left midfielder 15 as a central midfielder and 1 as a second striker sometimes we're a bit toppy with our headlines on the Times website, but that is definitely true.

54:08He is the most versatile player in the Premier League, surely. Yeah, and actually, there was interesting, I spoke to him about that quite a bit, and he said the guy who really changed it for him in terms of becoming a full-back was Vitor Pereira, who'd been, obviously, the former Wolves manager. He got the job at Fenerbahce, and he said it wasn't like we had no players. Can you fill in at wing-back? He said he had a plan for me, and I was young, and the plan looked good. And so that really is his position now. But he's still like, as I say, Fabian Herzl, if we need him, he can play as a winger as well.

54:44And it's not a case as well of like just filling in and doing a job. He actually is really good at all these positions as well, all these roles. Does he go for coffee regularly with James Milner? Because he has also played every position apart from goalkeeper. You've made me look bad, Alison. I should have asked him that. Next time when you go and interview Ferdi Kegelov. Just very quickly, you mentioned Herzler there. Joe Harston, who was at the game for us this weekend, reporting that some understandable grumbles of discontent from Brighton fans when you concede a late equaliser, but there's a sense that perhaps they're not happy with the overall performances and where the club is going.

55:18Last 11 league games, they've won just once against Burnley on January 3rd. Saturday's result was just the ninth point they've picked up in that run, which goes back to the start of December in that time. Only Palace, Wolves and Burnley have got fewer points. I read this and was like game's gone hasn't it we're another case of modern football being mental but do you think well spoken about this it's just not held in the same regard as Deserby was even when they were doing well as I said there was a point when he reached half a century of games and he'd collected more points than Roberto Deserby and you go wow because the atmosphere in the stadium does not fit that so they seem to always concede late goals they throw away points a lot and you know that's something he has to change I think but I don't think he should be in his job under threat I don't think I think Brighton actually really pulled him in a very high regard like as in the hierarchy I have a slightly different view because I think if you look at how much they've invested and the thing with Brighton just aside from results which haven't been amazing but we always look at their squad and go there's a couple here they're definitely going to step on and obviously Curioglu's one but I don't think there's the same level of that within the squad considering how much they've invested particularly they've made the sales they've got Calistas, Kaiseidos and then they've reinvested that money but are we talking about all of those players whereas before that we were and I think if you're Tony Bloom that's probably a concern as much as the results so I think that will reflect on Hurststrom but this is his second season as well and I wonder if they look at the table and how congested it is and think considering the resources we had and have invested we probably should be doing a bit better than we are I understand Are you saying that The money they've spent Hasn't You know There's not been as much Of a return on that investment No no As in We're not seeing the value Of the quality of those players Because we're not talking about Maybe they're not as good Maybe they're not as good Maybe their recruitment Has not been as good Like Brian Grudo I would say I thought he was great Yeah He's gone on loan To Arby Leipzig Yeah Like there's Yeah but I would also say That's also on the Coach Like we look at Precedent with Brighton The recruitment's been Very very good For a very long time to then suddenly have a load of players that were saying aren't as good feels less out of kilter than just having a coach that's come in and not worked with them in a better way.

57:36Maybe I'm wrong. I don't know. But I just, I don't know. I think that will also be a factor besides the results. There is a lot of conflicting sort of feeling in this because, you know, I remember we spoke about who should get the United job and Johnny threw in his name. He said if you speak to people in football in circles, they think he will get that sort of stature of job. when it was put to David Moyes the weekend that he's under pressure he said that's madness like I think they're doing really well and actually I reckon I bet he'll manage Germany one day so there's clearly a bit of a polarised he's got 60 years to learn he's so bloody young still only 32 yeah absolutely remarkable really interesting debate on that one Brighton fans get in touch with me tom.clock at thetimes.co.uk we'll have to leave it there Peter Rutzler Alison Rudd and Gregor Robertson thank you very much for joining me thank you too for listening me and Gregor will be back with an EFL extra show and then we'll be back with the regular show on Thursday.

58:29See you then.