What do Man City and Man Utd need to do this summer?

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1:26caught our eye and we'll find time to take a look at the chaotic situation at Sheffield Wednesday. I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the former footballer turned journalist Gregor Robertson and the football reporter who covers both Manchester clubs for the Times and Sunday Times Paul Hurst is with us as well. Hurstie, hello. Hello, how we doing? Yeah good thank you, you're back back in the UK just about as warm and hot and muggy as America was I believe. Yeah, well, Dizvi's got a very similar climate to Orlando. So I've acclimatised perfectly back into UK life up in Manchester. So, yeah, it was a great trip.

2:04It was very interesting. Got to see a lot of new sites and look at a few new players as well. It's very interesting. Excellent. Well, let's start with City. We're going to talk about United as well a little bit later on. We were talking, me and Gregor, with Martin Samuel about that game where City got knocked out of the tournament, slightly surprisingly. Just give us your sense of that game because watching it and following it, it was quite interesting to me to see how City were stopped in that game. It was almost like back in the good old days of Pep Guardiola with a bank of four and a bank of five and, you know, City trying to dink balls over the top.

2:38It was a bit of a throwback, wasn't it? It was. It was just pure chaos and it was great fun. It was a really interesting, really exciting game it was a proper basketball match end to end stuff and it was just exactly the opposite of what Pep wants desires from his players, he wants control he wants the midfielders to keep hold of the ball, not to give it away easily, he wants his you know, his strikers and his midfield players to knit together and for them to pick apart teams not to go hell for leather against them and then leave themselves really open at the back. It was enjoyable to watch, as was the match against Juventus and the first two matches against Widad Casablanca and Alain.

3:28But I did think even in those first two matches, I thought, God, they are really open here, City. Even Alain and Widad Casablanca were hitting them on the counterattack. And I did think before the Al-Hilal game, I should have put a bet on. I was saying to everyone, you know, they can't have that many good players, of which, you know, Aljala have got plenty. And a guy who just took Inter Milan to the Champions League final as coach and not have a crack, you know, not have a decent chance, particularly given how much City were open and vulnerable to a counter-attack. But the first half, they were just so, there were so many chances, City.

4:11They just looked so good, exactly like they did against Juventus, but they didn't score the chances. And then as soon as Al-Hilal scored in the first minute of the second half, it was as if the players were replaying the whole of last season in their minds. They were thinking, oh, yeah, actually, we weren't very good last season and we were pretty vulnerable at times. And the self-doubt started creeping in. And then before you knew it, they were behind and chasing the game. and it was just a real rollercoaster of a match. I came away from it thinking I was quite lucky to be there, really, because I just saw the reaction of the Saudi fans and just seen that history made, I guess.

4:55I know people say it's just a silly competition, and I do agree in part with that, and it's all about the money, etc. But it was interesting to see how a Saudi Pro League team will play against one of the best Premier League teams, the idea that they are, you know, just not up to it is just nonsense really, isn't it? Yeah. I mean, in terms of City, just some of the things you talked about there, I think a lot of the perception will potentially be from casual fans or non-City fans that they've made a load of signings, City are back, you know, that big win against Juventus. But you suggesting there that the scars from last season might be a bit deeper than perhaps the neutrals fans are thinking.

5:36Yeah, and I think that we've also got to take into account the fact that Rodri has been out for the best part of a year and will take, by his own admission, a few months to get back to his former self. Even in the second game against Alain, he was misplacing passes. He wasn't keeping up with the opposition when they were countering. It just wasn't like him, basically. it was just you know I was like who is this Rodri what have you done with the old one but like you know that is it's because he's been out for so long and you can't expect him to be back to his best it's a strange situation with City because they've got seven brilliant centre-halves or seven centre-halves on the books and they're all brilliant in some way but they've also got quite, they've also got their deficiencies I think maybe possibly apart from Gvardiol who I really like who can attack can defend, he's very good with the ball at his feet as well.

6:37I just think there are weaknesses in all the other players and that's something that he'll have to address and that's another reason why they were looking a bit vulnerable and Edison seemed to kind of flip into his mad mode for really bad times during matches. So that didn't help them either. I was going to ask about Edison as well just very quickly. He was a player that was linked with moves away to Saudi Arabia and things. And in the last 18 months, perhaps hasn't looked like the strong part of City's team as he has been. Is he still guaranteed number one going into this season? He is the number one, yes.

7:16But they're also in a strange situation where he's got a year left on his contract. And so has Stefan Ortega. And if I was Stefan Ortega, I'd be thinking if Edison stays, I'd probably fancy a move somewhere else. because he's getting to that stage of his career now where he's good enough to be a number one. If anything, he's probably hit a bit of a plateau, really, the last couple of years. Since the treble season, Stefan Ortega was incredible. He basically won them the title with that save from Son at the Spurs in the final week of the season. So I think Ortega's looking at that situation. We did ask him in the big zone before one of the matches whether he was staying Ortega and he was really kind of quite sharp in his response.

8:05He was like, oh, I'm not thinking about it. Why are you asking me that? I was like, because I want a story, basically. That's my job. So, but Edison as well said, I'll definitely stay in. It's fake news that I'm leaving, but, you know, it's not fake news that the Saudi clubs are interested in him. They were last year. He really wanted to go last summer, but Pep didn't. pretty much begged him to stay at least one more year. But we're in this situation now where he's either sick or twisted with Everton. He either signs a new long-term deal or they start looking elsewhere. So that's one of a lot of things for Hugo Villarna in his entry at the moment.

8:50Yeah, Greg, just quickly on City's defence, Hurstie mentioned all those defenders they now have, but it's interesting to hear our correspondent talking about the frailties that this team still has after last season you know you were someone that picked it out and said this is a this is a bigger job than it's this bigger than a one season blip do you still believe that yeah i think you know we we're all pretty fickle aren't we like when they were playing well in the first few games they're like oh say i've got their mojo back and it's like i think probably we'll be you know can't read too much into that and we shouldn't read too much into the defeat against Al-Hilal but yeah like from last season I kind of maintained that the the size of the overall the scale of it means that there's going to be far more hits than misses and you know over the number of years that Pep has been at City players don't often come to City and hit the ground running they've got to take a while to get up to speed with these demands and learn how to play for Pep Guardiola's team and then they've got to be good enough to do it so those are two big question marks of everyone and you look at even the players first he wrote about this not long ago like Nico Gonzalez kind of played some games then fell out of favour a bit, Vitor Rice and Kushanov you still don't really know whether they're going to make an impact this season they still don't have a right back, they're playing Nunez like I also think that as much as Aitnuri is great fun you know like he was playing right of a front three for Wolves for some of last season he's not like a traditional left back and I know that's not what City bought him for they want him to be bombing up and down and offer the width but he's not he's not a defender so like that there's just a lot of questions still and then there's the question about how much damage I've said this before how much damage to kind of Pep's aura last season malfunction had what's the kind of feeling within the changing room about the man leading them now and whether football is perhaps, I know this is like blasphemous to say, whether football is perhaps moving slightly beyond the Pep Guardiola era that's a question, so there are a lot of questions and you know even he himself has said that it might be till the middle of the season before there are any answers about another one is whether the Club World Cup will affect them too so yeah I think I still think it's a bigger job than just correcting it in the transfer market in one or two windows A lot of questions, Hersty, any answers?

11:34Well it's interesting the point you said Gregor about Pep himself, I did have that in the back of my mind before I went to America, I was thinking what's Pep going to be like because whenever he comes back after a summer, he always says, before the first game of the season, he always talks about how he's had a really long break. He's been sarcastic, basically. He really doesn't like the fact that they have such little time in between seasons, holidays, et cetera. But he really had a real spring in his step in Miami. I mean, he was just, he was so kind of upbeat and so positive and so interactive with the players.

12:18You could see Joe in training and outside of training. And even with us, you know, he was quite chatty. And, you know, he was a hitster in the media or, you know, he just dislikes it, doing so much of it. But he was quite kind of chatty with us, quite frank, quite open, quite chirpy and happy to engage, basically. So I think he certainly got that vigour back. And speaking to people around him as well, they were saying that as well. They were saying, crikey, this guy's up for it. He really wanted to win that tournament. And I think they got the balance right in terms of they basically treated it like a holiday.

12:58They trained in the morning, then the players could do what they wanted in the afternoon. They weren't doing, he wasn't locking him in a room and subjected him to three hours of video analysis. It was pretty much like a holiday for them. So I don't think it will affect them in terms of the pre-season fitness aspects. It actually has turned out all right because they get four weeks off now because of their early exit. And they've banked, what is it,£38 million just by turning up and kicking a ball out for a few games. So in that aspect, Pep, certainly it wasn't a bad experience for him. I think he certainly was beneficial to him.

13:43I take your point, Greg, completely about Aitnori. I just loved the way him and Doku were playing against Juventus. But I remember just thinking, right, so they've signed a left-back who is an attacking left-back. So surely the idea is to play a neat little fancy player who can tuck inside on the left wing. But it wasn't. It was just like the most attacking, bombing winger, you know, that they've got in Doku. So you've got these two guys who are just racing down this left wing. And I was thinking, crikey, this is just, you know, this is, this is like amazing. This is like a really interesting, really exciting football.

14:21But it was almost sort of like, you know, like Solskjaer United, where, you know, you're going to have one end, and then it's back to the other, and then it's back to the other. And I was thinking, this can't go on forever, surely. Someone's going to like pull a hamstring after about 20 minutes. but then again like you said it takes time for people to adapt to the system and to be fair I know he was probably one of the plus points of the tournament, he played really well I thought Fordham was really good as well Bernardo seems reinvigorated by the captaincy which I thought was an interesting manoeuvre by Pep to pick the captain rather than leave you up to a vote which he usually does so yeah there's plenty of positives to take from it although the bean counters probably wanted them to get to the final and bank another 80 million so I suppose it's that kind of trade-off really.

15:11Hurst, just final thoughts from you on the Club World Cup in general then. We had you on a few weeks ago at the very start of the tournament as the first of the team out there. What were your thoughts at the end of it? Once you'd done four games, you'd travelled around a bit, you'd spoken to more fans, seen more of it. What was your overall impression of the tournament in the US? I thought it was a it was a really I think just talking to the South American fans really made it for me I had countless conversations with Boca Juniors fans there were thousands of them in Miami and then loads of Flamengo fans in Philadelphia it really opened my eyes to how much the South American teams value that competition and it also opened my eyes also made me think the World Cup next year there is going to be mega.

15:58It will be, because you've got so many, you've got so many Hispanic populations in California and in Florida in particular and certain parts of the country, they will sort of become activated by the World Cup and go to see the matches. And I think that's the same for every other kind of, every other group of, every other nationality as well. So I think it probably will be quite well attended. I think the transport will be a nightmare in certain stadiums. The Met life is just, I didn't go there this time. I've been there on a pre-season tour with United, the stadium that's hosting the final in New Jersey.

16:40And it's just like, the public transport there is terrible. And it's just like a huge car park. And we found that in Miami at the Hard Rock Stadium as well. We had to walk half an hour to find an Uber and then people were offering us lifts on the back of golf buggies, which they'd sequestered from somewhere, I don't know, for$20 a ride. So it's just like, you know, the American dream's alive. You know, capitalism is still burning well in America. So, but yeah, no, I think in certain cities, you know, it did take off, others less so, but I just think, yeah, it was overall, I mean, if you're Gianni Amfantino, you'd probably, you would say that this is a success regardless of whether it was or not.

17:25But there will have plenty of ammo to say, yeah, this was well attended in certain sections. And some of the football was really exciting. There were lots of shocks as well. Yeah, absolutely. We'll see if it's a success for Chelsea. Their semi-final against Fluminense is tonight. We're recording this podcast on Tuesday. So keep an eye out on the Times website for the reports from Martin Samuel and Pete Rutzler. Chaps, just before we take a break, I just wanted to ask about maybe the transfer that's managed to shock me. Transfers don't really shock anyone anymore these days. Such are the top-notch reporters that we have out there.

17:59But speaking of Manchester City, Kyle Walker to Burnley, Gregor. I didn't see that one coming. What do you make of that? You know, I didn't see it coming either, Tom, I'll be honest. Hirstie, did you see that coming? No, not at all. I mean, it's... It's an interesting one, isn't it? You think Kyle Walker, you thought, right, he's going to cash in or maybe he'll go back to Italy. you know maybe that loan move worked out maybe he'll get a big deal no no i'm staying in the northwest i'm gonna help burnley battle against relegation gregor yeah i mean i'm with you i thought it would be overseas but um look i remember you know i wrote a piece last season about the agony of when your your legs go and like there's no doubt that his legs are going or have gone but that doesn't mean he's not like hugely experienced a promoted team um and like still a good defender against everyone except the most rapid players in the league so from Burnley's point of view I don't think it's a bad signing at all, he's still super fit and athletic just not at the peak levels he was for so many years from Kyle Walker's point of view it's a bit more surprising as you say staying in the North West will be a big part of it but he kind of made a big play about wanting to experience playing overseas towards the end of his career and it didn't last very long so Burnley it is maybe it was to do with the offers Hursty what do you make of it I just think it makes sense just geographically doesn't it you know he can be around his family and he doesn't have to move house and all that kind of stuff I mean I mean no that is a big thing particularly that age yeah I remember like thinking when Johnny Evans moved to to West Brom he was like well I can commute there you know I think he had offers in like to play in London but and possibly get more money but you've got to think about your family and your kids and moving out of school and all that kind of stuff.

19:51But yeah, I think it's a good, it's a win-win for everyone, isn't it? City get a few million for him, he gets to stay local, Burnley get a lot of experience to add to their team. And Parker will have played with Walker, won't he, at Spurs and with England. So he'll know a lot about how he operates. and, you know, how many times have you seen teams come up from the championship and, well, that was their problem last season, wasn't it? Or last time they came up, they didn't really company threw a load of money at young players who he thought would do it. And, you know, sometimes you just need that level head, don't you?

20:30And, I mean, he has had examples of where he's not had a level head at all. He just sort of lost it a bit. But he's still a very decent right-back. so they could have done a lot worse and I think it's a good option for him. Yeah, very interesting transfer. We'll be discussing more transfers that have and may be happening in the summer weeks in the second half of the show but it's time for a quick break so it's time for Gregor Robertson's favourite part of every show. Who am I talking about when I say a former footballer who played for Sunderland, Leicester and West Brom and was a substitute for Manchester United when they won the Club World Cup in 2008?

21:08Find out after the break.

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23:54Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Paul Hurst and Gregor Robertson with me. firstly the first time on the show all season when the answer to a quiz question has been said out loud just before I asked the quiz question because the answer was, of course... Johnny Evans. Johnny Evans, a new member of the former footballer rank, just retired this summer and become the head of Loans and Pathways at Manchester United. Gregor, you must hear things like that and think, what the hell did I end up on a bloody podcast? They were so... With bloody journalists.

24:29These jobs didn't exist, Tom. You know what I mean? I could have been the head of gardens and canteen work or anything for anyone. I know, I know. So many jobs, I know. Still time, maybe. I'll meet you too. You're still a young man. Maybe there's a feature idea. Find out what it means to be the head of loan and pathway. What's your pathway? Yes, exactly. What is the pathway? And speaking of pathways at Manchester United, it is a huge summer for Ruben Amrim and the club. Hirstie, you're obviously with City, the club World Cup. Before that, you were with Man United on their post-season tour. Just give us a bit of a catch-up about where Man United are at.

25:09Obviously, you've got Matthias Kuhn, you're in. It now feels like, from following your reports on the Times website in the last week or so, that it's now maybe more about the clear-out than about players coming in. Yeah, again, it's a huge... In the same way that it is a huge summer for Hugo Viana at City, it's a huge summer for Jason Wilcox. United, I was just looking at the squad before we started recording, and you've got 30 players there in that squad, in that United squad, which means you're probably going to have to get rid of 10 of them before you start bringing in, you know, to accommodate the new signings if and when they do come.

25:49So it is just as big a, United have been so bad over the years, post-Fergie years, in terms of getting rid of players. you know they've been offering him stupid contract extensions to to maintain the value and all that kind of thing and it's just not worked out so they need to be quite ruthless and quite efficient in getting rid of a lot of players but that is it's easier said than done because the five players who haven't gone back to training who have told the club they want to leave are immediately devalued by the fact that they you know by that fact you know they want to leave and they're not training now so they other clubs think oh well United are trying to get rid of them you know why should we why should we pay 60 million for Marcus Rashford or why should we pay 40 million for him when United are clearly desperate to get rid of him so the same goes with Garnaccio I mean the thing is that United have got to hope that there's some kind of bidding war sparks for players like Garnaccio and Rashford but no one's really got that kind of money to be gambling on players like that who've played so poorly, particularly in Rashford's case.

27:02And they're on huge wages as well. So I wouldn't be surprised when it comes to Rashford, we'll see them going out on loan again for another season. United will just kick it down the road for another year. But that said, taking them off the wage bill, if you get a club that pays his entire wage packet, you'll be saving£17 million, which is a fair saving, particularly and we know that Sir Jim loves savings doesn't he so that'd be a big lump off their wage bill but yeah they do have money to spend but they've also got to avoid a situation whereby they sign three or four players and then end up with a squad that is 34, 35, 36 and they end up just getting rid of players on deadline day for next to nothing basically so yeah it's a huge test of Jason Wilcox's skill as the director of football Firsty, just on that Jason Wilcox doesn't have much experience as a director of football do you not still find it fairly extraordinary that out of all the kind of bravado and big talk when Jim Radcliffe and Ineos came in about you know hiring the best in class and everyone they got a guy who really his main experience was in academy football Yeah, the best of the best you know, remember when they appointed Dan Ashworth, I think Jim Radcliffe said he was a world-class director of football.

28:26And then he lasted a few months, so they spent millions binning him off. That's how crazy this situation is. And then I do remember when they got rid of Ashworth, I thought, well, they've got to have someone in mind, really, to step into his shoes, someone who's been successful on the continent, maybe. But they were like, no, we're just going to ask Jason to step in in the short term. And it's just transpired that he's got that job full-time, basically and like you said his previous experience is in youth football you know he's a very successful experience as the academy director at man city but when he moved to southampton to you know was involved more in first team affairs and recruitment there he didn't go so well so it is this you know his reputation will be determined on what happens this summer if he fails if he if they ended the window with three signings and a load of deadwood then you know questions will be asked of him and we've seen how ruthless Jim Ratcliffe can be so you know he will know that.

29:34Dostoe, you mentioned the word what failure would be this summer where so much is in perception about players have signed and you know that we could say the same about Arsenal looking to finally kick through the gears and make some big signings to appease fans and keep them happy. What do you think success would look like for Man United this summer? Oh, God.

29:58Right. A lot of red markers through a lot of names in the squad list. Like I say, it's 10 players. It's got to be it. That would be... We're talking in an ideal situation. It's 10 players out. I wrote the squad down. as it stands here. And it's, we're on to 30. So I've got, got listed, this is on my hit list. By India, not good enough. Yeah. You know, not good, he's not, he's not as good as number one, number two, number three, Tommy Hensbank, I'll keep it in. Tyrell Molassia, doesn't want to be there, you know, and he was alone last season. Luke Shaw, love him, nice guy, but he's, you know, he's just not, not up to it, is he?

30:45Casemiro, again, falls in the same category alright towards the end of last season but you're not going to win you're not going to finish top four with him in midfield are you Toby Collier young lad probably get 5 million for him something like that I don't think he's going to set the world alight I don't think he's going to be you know give him a chance somewhere else make a career elsewhere become successful fair enough put a buyback clause in Rashford wants out you know no way he wants to play under Amarim Garnacho same again Bridges burnt Anthony you know the star of League 1 of La Liga sorry he wants out and Sancho as well I think that's nine maybe eight I've lost count anyway but that is got to get rid of all those players get rid of them all and then sign some good players which he's not been very good at either so that's it's such a that is what would determine that's what success would look like that would be the perfect summer for United in my eyes because you look at the squad, look at the team now having made one signing and it's just the same team that was finished near the bottom of the table last season.

31:57So they need to move a lot of players out, a lot of players in and they need to do it pretty quickly because they go on pre-season two in a couple of weeks and to go there with one signing would just be a terrible look and it'd be terrible for Amram as well. Speaking of that one signing, a lot of talk around Brian Mbomo from Brentford. What do you get the sense with the latest on that is? The latest I heard was the second bid was rejected, just over£60 million. I don't think it's so much the actual final figure that they're haggling over here. It's the way it's paid. I think that Brentford wants a lot of the money up front in the first instalment, which is, you know, fair enough, he's a valuable asset, isn't he?

32:41They've got a new manager, they want him to be able to reinvest the money that he gets for a player that will make a handsome profit on. So, yeah, I think that's where we're at with that one. I'm still kind of scratching around, wondering where he goes in the team. Does he go behind a striker that they haven't signed yet alongside Cunha or does he go as a right wing back? I mean, to me, if he's going to be a number 10, they're signing another player to play in a role where they're already pretty well stopped. So again, you'd have to get rid of a lot of players to kind of accommodate him and move players around.

33:22I think they'll end up playing Bruno as a deeper midfielder next season. That seems to have always been the destiny for him. But who knows what he's thinking at the moment. I think they're just sort of waiting to see. If I were the best of mine, I'd probably say that Mbwemo would end up getting done. But it's just all about haggling and negotiation, isn't it? Very interesting. Keep up to date with the latest transfer goings on at Manchester United on the Times website with the latest from Paul Hurst. Chaps, let's finish with a look at a team in the Championship. We talk about Manchester United being slightly chaotic.

33:57Sheffield Wednesday, give them a good run for their money. Gregor, we've got to play it out on the line here. Paul Hurst complete bias in this matter I'm not even sure whether we should let him speak as a die-hard Sheffield Wednesday fan so I'm going to let you go first Just took a drink of whiskey there It's a double shot Just take a big drop he's going to come in off his long run he's going to do a 10 minute soliloquy so Gregor I'm going to let you go first and just lay it out for some of the listeners who maybe aren't aware of the situation at Sheffield Wednesday and what's kind of been going on Crikey How long have you got is what you're supposed to say we were briefly talking before we came on here and Hersey was agreeing that often owners such as Desfers and Jan Ciri are kind of, they're well liked until they're not and it's been 10 years he's been owner of Sheffield Wednesday and it started with a lot of ambition and very nearly promotion to the Premier League, they reached the playoffs twice lost in the final on one of those occasions at Wembley but he ploughed a lot of money into the team to get there and then financial fair play, profit and sustainability rules finally bit and since then it's been there's been a lot of turmoil there's been a lot of late payment of wages there's been points deductions for failure to pay HMRC there was an attempt to sell the stadium to another company he owned which Villa, Derby Reading I've tried in the past for£60 million to circumvent the spending rules but it fell into the wrong accounting year so even that went badly there was relegation to League One that was an opportunity to reset, kind of a financial reset and that worked well actually and then after promotion it kind of descended into farce again, we'll all remember the kind of Darren Moore who won promotion within a month he was gone and there was a very public spat about the wage demands that Moore had made and Chancery is quite a prickly character, he's also the only guy involved in the running of the club, I think I was reading that I think since 2019 they've had no board of directors whatsoever no one else involved in any capacity in the running of the club, just just now you should say that should not be allowed it should not be that you know you can't give all the power to one individual even if they are the owner and yeah there's just been a lot of financial turmoil and a lot of rancor at Hillsborough since then a lot of decay in terms of the stadium there was a bit of farce again this summer in terms of they've invested some money in the training ground but their training pitches aren't ready so they've not actually got anywhere to train their manager Danny Roll is in the process of cutting ties with the club so they don't have a manager and they've got a three window transfer ban because as I said a failure repeated failure to pay the players on time and it's also been quite cynical in the way that they've recently not paid the players, they've paid the players who are the biggest assets under 21s and then one or two others because they if you don't there's a FIFA rule basically that says if you're not paid I think it's within 15, you have a right to in two consecutive months you can basically give 15 days notice in writing and if they don't pay you in that time you can leave the club, so a lot of players are in a position now to sever ties with the club but the players who are the biggest assets aren't so that's also been quite cynical it's been coming to head for a long time as Hurstie will probably be able to articulate better than me but this does feel like the end of days now for Jan Ciri's reign Lots of nodding along there from Paul Hurst that was very satisfying to watch from my point of view Gregor as you were going through all that Hurstie just nodding along in agreement Hurstie obviously as a fan Gregor's summing that up there there are lots of badly run clubs but it must be incredibly frustrating because as Gregor says with Danny Roll as well a very talented manager, a very sought-after manager who's done great things for your club and you're now in this situation in the summer.

38:26It must be hard to take. Yeah, as Greg articulated well, he has been like a rollercoaster, basically. He came in and spent a lot of money, some of it unnecessarily, like paying£10 million for Jordan Rhodes when we already had six strikers on the books. That was a strange one. Chase promotion, didn't get it. and then he has pumped a lot of money into the club and like you said, the whole episode, like Greg said, with Darren Moore was just pretty unsavoury really. Not only did we get promoted through the playoffs, it was after getting 96 points in the league and having come back from a 4-0 deficit in the first leg of the playoff semi-final against Peterborough, that game will never be beaten for me in terms of the excitement and the shock of it all.

39:22So to come away from that, I'd be really proud of your club and your manager, Darren Moore, for the chance to sack him, put in place Cisco, who I don't think won any of our first 11 matches or something like that, was just ridiculous. Then Roel came in and he was brilliant. I mean, he was real cool to get in. I interviewed him a couple of years ago and he said as a bit of an icebreaker I'd written out like a Danny Roll 11 the players that he'd worked with and you know some incredible players you know like all the Bayern Munich players has he been assistant manager there to Hansi Flick and he'd been Hansi Flick's assistant with Germany Ralf Hasen who was assistant with Southampton and you know he could have gone to Barcelona with Hansi Flick but he decided to you know make a go of it on his own and he's a really clever innovative manager and he did so much with so little that at one point last season it looked like we could have got playoffs it was an open door for the playoffs really the quality of that league last season outside the top two or three teams was pretty poor in my opinion he just needed that little bit more investment in January a couple of signings we might have got in got into the top six but he just wasn't there and then that started the kind of the break up between the manager and the chairman and we get to this situation now, bizarre, as Greg has said, where Danny Roll's negotiating his exit from the club and you've got Henrik Pedersen in charge, who's one of his assistants.

40:59I mean, they announced yesterday that he'd signed a new contract, Pedersen, as assistant manager. It's so bizarre. They said that he'd signed a new contract extension, but it didn't say how long it was for and what his role would be because we don't have a manager now. Our manager's not in the country, I don't think. so they are training Henning Peddison is taking training at St George's Park where that's where Wednesday's pre-season is taking place you know as great as the facilities are there I mean it's you know it's not exactly taking them to Marbella is it or and he just had such grand ambitions for the club and you know they just weren't matched by the chairman who was basically just giving up from what I can tell, from what I can surmise.

41:50He just doesn't want to put that much more money in. But he wants to sell it also, apparently, for an astronomical fee. So you can't have it both ways. Hopefully it is the beginning of the end, but it's just been such a painful experience these last couple of months. The club can't sign anyone on a free transfer until the wages are paid. So they released a lot of players as well this summer, so they've got a skeleton coaching staff and they've not got that many first-team players either. 16 senior players on contracts into next season. Yeah, I've got left back either, so just off your boots, Gregor.

42:33I reckon I might get a game at some half as well. It's such a mess, really, and it's really unbecoming. Like I say, a club I was so proud of when we got promoted and seemed to be on the up when we got Danny Roll as a manager. And it's, again, I think the worst thing about it is that Chancery just seems to want to be the centre of attention. He puts out these ridiculous long statements and calls these fans forums and starts shouting at fans and complaining at fans. And it's just not the right way to go around. I think the last one lasted five hours. So there's a lot of parallels, as I said, with Derby, with Reading, with a few other clubs.

43:11but where there is a difference is he does actually engage with fans, they may not hear what they want to hear and in fact there's probably not that much engagement, it's more like just listen to what I've got to say but he does turn up and do these things and you know you get the sense that actually the lure, the possibility that they might strike it lucky and make it to the Premier League means he doesn't really deep down want to sell, he just wants to keep going along and as Cersei said Rule gave them that kind of sniff last season despite it all so in the Championship that can still happen you can get to February, March time and be 8 points outside the playoffs and you've got a chance you've still got a chance that's the glorious nature of the Championship but this season they ain't got a chance they've got 16 fit players, no manager nowhere to train and they can't sign anyone for a fee or permanent deals, I don't think even loan signings for three transfer windows without balancing the books completely, so they're in big trouble and we should say as well, there have been two consortiums reportedly who've tried to, who are trying to buy the club and one was for I think £40 million and he paid £37.5 million and he's also got loans totaling about£115 million to the club so you can see where you know he probably wants a little bit more than that just to think if he's going to get his money back The one positive that we've learned over the last week or so is he's actually started engaging with professionals who are whose speciality is selling clubs you know the rain group was in charge of Chelsea selling Chelsea and United I don't know it's obviously not them on this instance but you know actual a bank or people who will try and sell clubs for you.

45:06Before, he was just doing it as a, you know, man-to-man thing. You know, how much... Through chummy agents and stuff. I mean, that just never works, does it? I mean, business isn't done like that. And this is the frustrating thing that, you know, on TalkSport a few months ago, Simon Jordan was talking about us and he was trying to just say, he was asked, if you were to buy a club outside the top of the flight, who would it be? And he said, Sheffield Wednesday. he said the fan base is massive you know it's big historical club huge ground a lot of tradition and a lot of history and you know the he's right and it's just so infuriating that chancery has dragged his heels for so long and has put us through this misery you know for the last few years that the the probably are people out there but as soon as they start dealing with him they're Like, no, no thanks.

45:59Not for me. I've heard so many stories about how he goes about his business that, you know, it just makes me, you know, recoil really with how, you know, when you think, you look at teams like Bournemouth, how well they've done the last few years, and Brighton. We beat Brighton in the 2016 playoff semifinal, and then looking to look at the trajectory of the two clubs since. so it's you know it's just such a massive missed opportunity and you know we really are back to square one now so yeah I've and this is also by the way while he's charging ridiculous amounts for us to go and watch football matches I paid£52 to go and watch Wednesday last year Wow against Leeds so he was on telly on Friday night and we got hammered but so that it's he's asking a lot of fan base 52 quid in the championship yeah absolutely I remember Greg final word from you I was just going to say I remember that just reminded me of the occasion where there was a two million pound fine and he had and he asked every club every fan to chip in a hundred quid this could disappear if 6 ,000 fans chip in or whatever he said I can't remember I don't think he got one check back from that just on the size again something struck me this morning when I was reading about this is that it's the biggest stadium by capacity in the championship it's like it's just under 40 ,000 it's going to be next season still the biggest ground and like as Hersey says a huge latent fan base you know Sheffield United have yo-yoed recently but Sheffield Wednesday historically are the bigger club like really so it is an opportunity and you do feel that someone will seize it it's just whether he can relinquish control and you know when he does it and what kind of state the club are in when he does so yeah just one of the big stories in the championship.

47:53We'll make sure to cover all the others when me and Gregor return for the championship season preview in just a few weeks' time. Gregor, I can't believe it's nearly here. Already I'm excited for it though. That's it for now. Paul Hurst and Gregor Robertson, thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Thursday with Izzy Christensen to analyse England's must-win clash with the Netherlands. We'll see you then.

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