What is the problem with Manchester United?

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1:28Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. A Derby defeat on Sunday. You then have to listen to VAR fallout and controversy on Monday. A 15-year-old wonder kid demands to leave on Tuesday and your team throw away a two-goal lead and crash out of the cup on Wednesday. If any of you out there are having a bad week, spare a thought for Manchester United boss Michael Carrick. On today's show, we'll look at a dismal collapse against Brighton and JJ Gabriel's request to leave the club. And we'll also discuss Sunderland's victorious return to Europe, a big win for Leeds against Newcastle, more magic from Max Dowman, more mystery from Pro Ref and plenty more besides.

2:06I'm Tom Clarke and joining me today we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel, the Chief Football Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times and Football Journalist of the Year, Jonathan Northcroft, and the former footballer turned journalist, Gregor Robertson, is alongside me as usual. The Fab Four, the gang are back together. Just before we start recording, we reckon this is months since we've all been together in the Game Podcast studio. Back when we all thought, you know, Scotland were going to hammer Haiti, the Halcyon days, glorious, glorious stuff. One of those are hammering.

2:38We've got a very big international break coming up to maybe relive some of those memories and look ahead as well. But there's loads of action this week to discuss. And it's back to Old Trafford. Manchester United fans, goodness me. Manchester United 2, Brighton 3. lots of different directions I could go in this and there's lots of points to bring up but Johnny, your reaction to that defeat first? Oh, I mean, yeah, look, here we are again already in the Man United agony loop and another season is already starting to, you know, look in crisis so early. I mean, specifically on the game, it was almost like the worst way you can lose a football match.

3:16Starting as they did, you know, Shea Lacey scores that great goal. Exactly what United would have wanted to script given the JJ Gabriel situation. Here's another academy product, scores a brilliant goal, 2-0 up after 10 minutes. But what then became evident was that Brighton were a lot better at football than Manchester United. Didn't have another shot on target, I think, until about an hour, United. The defence, I mean, where do you start? The defending was just non-existent. You had two young centre-backs who haven't played much as a partnership, haven't played much generally. you could see that but that was scary for supporters because they're supposed to be the future there the reconfigured midfield with Santos and Tielemans the two signings were just as passive as they were against Hull yeah massive gaps in the middle of the pitch and no real clear way of building attacks basically and what was really striking for me was when Brighton inevitably got back to 2-1 the onslaught was coming when it went to 3-2 Brighton was still the better team it could have been 5 couldn't it?

4:26it could have been 5 and at 3-2 you'd have expected that's where you're going to get the Manchester United reaction Bruno Fernandes is on the subs are on and Old Trafford was flat and there was nothing there were moments where like Cesco or when Zerksi when he came on got on the ball and they were just swarmed he was swarmed by like four or five players and no one supporting it was like so isolated and as Johnny says they're 3-2 behind they want to stay in the cup and there was no sense of urgency or anyone really taking the game by the scruff of the neck Johnny go on and I can picture some of those moments and what was also galling was you saw how well coach Brighton were in those moments you saw the pressing structure you saw the players in proximity and it was you saw nobody Zerkes on the ball and nobody from his own team ready to receive it and it looked like disarray against a well-coached team.

5:18That's the maybe most damning thing about the situation for Michael Carrick, isn't it? The 10 men against Manchester City seem to get worse as that happened this game as well. Martin, what do you think the lay of the land is for Michael Carrick at the moment? People, obviously, interim manager who does very well. It's, again, a familiar tale at Manchester United. Keep sacking managers after three months of the season. I mean, you know, that's how Ruben Amorin came in. He came in three months after the season for Eric Ten Hag. I mean, Michael Carrick comes in halfway through the season when Ruben Hamilton gets the bullet.

5:51They can't keep doing this. But it is, in my opinion, the worst one club in the world because it's got every advantage. There is absolutely nothing to stop Manchester United being a huge success. every single financial rule of the last 10, 15 years, everything benefits Manchester United. They're actually behind a lot of them. David Gill is driving a lot of the... So everything is to the benefit of... David Gill never once advocated anything that wasn't massively for the benefit of Manchester United. I totally understand why he would do that, but that's the truth. So everything is going for them.

6:34And to have this situation where they are, well, thank heavens for Tottenham, you're right, because otherwise they really are the crisis club this season already. And you think, how does this keep happening? How have they lost everything about them? So you think even in those moments like last night when the guys are talking about the substitutions and I felt watching both games that the changes Michael Carrick makes seem to make both games worse, you still think that laid out on that pitch in front of you is a disastrous running of a football rather than a management situation? What I think is this.

7:13You know, I saw a lot of Andre Santos last season because if your wife's a Chelsea fan, you watch a lot more of Chelsea, then you would really like to. And Andre Santos was still a work in progress at Chelsea last season. The market that they're dealing in now, I know I can understand why everyone's saying, oh, it's good that they're not paying these exorbitant fees and everything. But 50 million is the new 30 million. Yeah. 30 million became a lot of money, but a gamble. A few years ago, it's an awful lot of money, 30 million quid. Yeah. But it didn't get you the finished art deal. It still got you a player that you were taking a chance on.

8:01Somehow, that has now gone to 50 million. So for 50 million, you get Andre Santos. You don't get Elliot Anderson anymore or Declan Rice that way you're like, we know we're buying the answer here. You get Andre Santos, who may or may not come good. Well, they're trapped by the sins of the past in many ways, right? I saw some figures this morning. United have spent, since Ferguson left, they've spent by far the most, like by about 500 million in terms of gross spending on transfers. So no matter how much fans protest about the Glazers or think that Ineos aren't doing the right job, this is a cumulative thing that a lot of regimes and executives have contributed to.

8:48Ineos are now stuck between trying to get rid of people from the wage bill and the excess of the past. So they're making cheap signings like Andre Santos. Well, it's not cheap. It's 15 million quid. Well, because Man City signed an 18-year-old midfielder for 85. So they're now trying to put the genie back in the bottle, be disciplined, we're not going to overpay, we're going to be logical. But at the same time, other clubs are running away from them. And probably what this summer called for was a proper investment. I understand why they didn't decided not to do that in kind of big picture terms but their strategy is to try and you know I think build window by window to get to a point where they've revamped the squad the problem is football doesn't wait Bruno Fernandes won't get any younger and then you have and we'll come on to talk about JJ Gabriel but then you have talent wanting to leave at the same time Just before we get on to JJ Gabriel because I think that comes back to big picture stuff Greg on the actual action then and this idea about Michael Carrick's position in terms of his coaching being a bit exposed, both in this game and against Manchester United.

9:56Johnny mentioned some of the disastrous defending. It is particularly damning, isn't it, that Manchester United can go 2-0 up at home to Brighton and no one is surprised when they lose 3-2. Yeah, and personally, I think that's kind of something that's bigger than Michael Carrick too. That's the other thing you feel watching this game is that you used to always, and it's getting boring harking back to the past, but you can't help but do it with Manchester United. but you used to always see when they went behind particularly Old Trafford my god there was going to be a force of nature an Alamo coming for you and it was just you watched and you thought this is not coming this is never coming fullbacks right where would you rank those two fullbacks last night in the Premier League list as a fullback pairing compared to other clubs so this is Dallow and Masraoui yeah I mean slightly higher than Dallow and Dogu is all I'd say but that's not a top 6 fullback pair is it is it even a top 10 I don't know they're not near the top yeah I'll be polite about that again it's about how they're asked to play Masrawi when you watch them from Morocco at the World Cup you think he's someone who's asked to play who could step into midfield because they've got Hakimi on the right and he bombs forward there's a balance to it there's none of that either you think Masrawi's just thrown in because he was signed by Ten Hag that's two managers ago it's all a mess but I just can't believe as well that we're six games into the season and we're talking about the same stuff again you watch the images of Jason Wilcox in the stand looking down stony-faced afterwards.

11:21And again, you just think to yourself, how has he got that job? And we spoke about this last season. I don't want to be talking about this again. They're making me look stupid. I said I thought they could possibly push Arsenal closest this year. What a mug. What a mug I am. It's big of you to say that. We said in the summer, there's a strange sort of sense of stability now this summer. like they've identified a few areas they've gone out and strengthened a bit the worst question I totally agree Santos was weird and there's question marks even about Baleba but they've over the last few transfer windows they've been fairly targeted at least there was at least some sign of strategy but we're six games in and it's just as Johnny said the doom cycle has started again and like I hope just even just for our sakes that they pull themselves out of it because I'm sick of talking about it because seeing more later Buna Fernandes you know It's one of those that Salah was linked with a move away from Liverpool every summer for about three or four summers.

12:23And in the end, it happened. And it was Turkey in the end, not Saudi Arabia. But Bruno Fernandes and Saudi Arabia is a story that doesn't go away. If Bruno Fernandes... It's like the Ravens leaving the towers. Yeah, yeah. If Bruno Fernandes leaves Manchester United, because he is it. He is it. Absolutely. Number one in the field of one. Just a couple of stats. United, 17 touches in the box last night to Brighton, 39. Bill Edgar with the stat that Man United have lost a home game they led at the break for the first time since May 1984, leading at half-time for 551 occasions. They won 498 of those times, drawn 52, and then they lost for the first time in that scenario against Brighton.

13:04Wasn't it the first time they've lost a 2-0 lead at Old Traff? 50 years, isn't it? In 50 years. Yeah, it was like, you know, we're black and white. Remarkable stuff. Martin said in the opening to his answer about making it a broader point you can't keep sacking managers the idea of Justin Carrick before we move on to JJ Gabriel and video picture stuff Johnny Michael Carrick's position no look Michael Carrick's had a dreadful start this season and I was at that opening gaming as Hull and he didn't seem to have prepared the team for the direct onslaught that he got from Hull right but but there was stability towards the end of last season they can't keep sacking managers They've got to give this guy a chance.

13:44They've got to invest in him. He showed the qualities that he's got in that run. He's had six games into this season, and they're enough to raise doubts. But to Martin's point, if you think that's the right guy and there are reasons for having faith in him, you can't make the decision now. But at this point in the season, it doesn't look great. This decision doesn't look great. Greg, final thoughts on that? you're going to watch them against Fulham, another team under pressure on Sunday. Thoughts on Michael Carrick just before we move on? Yeah, I mean, the only thing is that all the things he was kind of praised for last season, he's like, the equilibrium he brings, he's calm, he's not adding to the noise.

14:28These are the things he's actually been criticised for now. You think, where's the personality? Where's the story that you're telling? How are you telling fans that this is going to get better? I don't know if any of that really matters, but that is what he's being criticised for so he does need to turn it around quickly or else the noise will continue to grow and I totally agree with the guys it would be madness to sack him again but this is Manchester United this is modern football you don't get along Yeah, I wouldn't make my usual joke at this point about credit to Brighton they were excellent but I'm not even sure they were they were just pretty good and that's all they had to be Pascal Gross though strutting about in midfield age 35 maybe Man United should have signed him instead of Juri Tielemans Moving on to JJ Gabriel then it's a story that I mentioned in my intro and you've all referenced speaking of Michael Carrick he talked about the story of JJ Gabriel Manchester United's wonder kid dubbed Kid Messi hugely rated talent was believed to we would believe he would have been in the matchday squad for that Brighton game had he not said I'm off I want to leave after the game Michael Carrick said we have to be a little bit careful he's a 15 year old boy it's more about the welfare the care and the attention of JJ as a child he's certainly a young man the situation is what it is but we have to be careful of the exposure on that one as we understand it he's not left yet because of the situation that he's in with contracts for young players and things.

15:45But as you alluded to, Johnny, I think for a club of Manchester United's stature and history, particularly history with young players, to have this such hotly tipped starlet saying I'm off is the most damning thing, perhaps. It's not good. Look, I'm glad Michael Carrick said that. I think that was important to remind people that we're talking about a kid, a 15 year old. and there's been a horrible social media pile on from sections of the United support about Gabriel and his family and this, and they don't know. We don't know what the story is behind. It might be that he's got an ambitious, pushy father.

16:24It might not. We don't know. But there's so much stuff that's now out there, vicious stuff. I found it really unedifying. what I would say is this is part of the game is trying to keep these talents yeah on egregious as it might be on one level that a 15 year old may think he should be in the first team and may have started to line up other options that might that might seem terrible on one level that is the game that you commit to in modern football academy football these days Manchester United have just announced the signing of two players from Man City 16, 17-year-olds. Yes. A kid from Liverpool.

17:03They've got Cido... Aidan Heaven was pinched from Arsenal. Aidan Heaven and Cido Obi from Arsenal. So they themselves, and I think JJ Gabriel was at West Ham, Arsenal and Chelsea's academy before being lured north. So if he then wants to go to another club, that's the game that they've entered. And I don't know what's happened behind the scenes, but part of United's job in this situation realistically awful as it might be you know in terms of how people behave they've got to try and keep talent happy and it does seem to me that there was a chance missed in the pre-season to play him and I find it already wasn't in the Champions League squad now again it might be we don't want to build him up put too much pressure but they put Agarty in it Agarty's injured he can't play till January so and by which time you can rename your squad so looking at it from the outside on a pragmatic level It looks like they've missed a couple of tricks that could have sent a different signal to him.

18:06Is there a little bit maybe of, again, not wanting to hark back to the past, but this still idea that because of the way Fergie did it and things, and keeping kids grounded and Gary Neville and all that, Class of 92 cleaned all the boots and stuff. Modern football doesn't work like that, does it? The 16-year-olds are superstars. Yeah, but there's a big difference. Fergie took a personal interest and had a personal relationship with these young players and their families. Fergie had Darren Fletcher at the age of about 14, 15 in his house he was playing pool with them Darren told me that story he was at young Ryan Giggs' house when he was 13, 14 talking to his mum so yeah Fergie was old school but he also built these personal relationships with these players which is hard to do when you're changing manager all the time Martin your reaction on some of the points Johnny's made and this story in general no it's absolutely true you've got to keep you've got to keep those players they're the lifeblood of any club I would say and this is nothing to do with JJ Gabriel's decision or that of his family or advisors or whatever.

19:06This is what we're losing in football because we've got a structure in football now that the Walsh clubs selling on their young talent and treating the academy as a production line rather than treating the academy as something that supplies the first team and that is the fabric of the first team. And so we can't really be too surprised when you've got people around 15 and 16 year old saying, you know, you might just do it now because they're going to do it in four years anyway. And then they'll go, whereas this way, you know, you can get it. It's also much harder to sign players. They used to go sign players from overseas now until they reach 18.

19:53So there's a bit of an arms race now for younger talent in the UK. I actually had a friend get in touch with me yesterday out at the blue after this he's like he's on the scouting circuit I'll say and he told me about a player another Premier League club around the same age who's got a contract that will you know the professional contracts don't kick until they're 17 but it's agreed that you get £37 ,000 a week on his 17th birthday so he'll like again we don't know as Johnny says we don't know the ins and outs of this but he'll know that yeah Man United don't pay that so it's easy to say you need to try and keep them have the personal connections and try and keep them happy and make sure that they're part of your club's future and your fabric but when they see that and they know their value there's some real challenges for the clubs as well You've been a young player with aspirations Unfortunately not one of these guys getting off a desk You're a young player with hopes and dreams and aspirations and things and we're going to talk about another one in Max Dalman in just a second.

20:58Just a final thought from you on this changing state of the game where players are being blooded much younger. We know about them so much younger. Years ago, before the internet and social media, no one would have known anything about JJ Gabriel apart from maybe someone mentioning it in a column going, there's a young lad called JJ Gabriel who they're very keen on. Jack Wiltshire, spelling his name completely wrong. Spelling it like the county. Wiltshire. Spelling it like the county. This guy at Arsenal had said to me, we've got the next Lionel Messi really we've got the next Lionel Messi a kid in our academy but Gregor just final thoughts on that before we bring in Max down it's kind of conflicting things about it I feel it's the primary thing is it's sad that a 15 year old life has been even before this the extent to which your life is controlled and manipulated and dominated by your identity as a future potential footballer you're not actually a footballer and the thing you've got to remember overwhelmingly is that most of these guys don't make it so they train three or four times a week as I say your whole life and identity friendship groups everything about your world is football and want to be a footballer and when that's taken away that's so that's something that's actually changed since I was young and you know and you're not a 15 year old should be on the back page of every news no really if you think about what's healthy for you when you're 15 that sort of exposure isn't really healthy for you And I wouldn't say that makes him more likely he's going to stay either, or even stay in this country.

22:29No, no, no, no, no. So whoever's advising him that way has made a mistake, I think. But then there's another side to it, that they are getting opportunities earlier, and part of that's to do with the fact that they're now coached and educated and everything in such a meticulous way that they're ready, they're prepared. You look at Max Diamond, and we're going to talk about him, and he looks like a physical specimen. Well, let's bring him in. 16-year-old Max Dowman with two goals in a start for Arsenal in a 4-2 win against Ipswich. As Gregor says, you pick up your own point there. He looks ready, doesn't he?

23:04He just looks like he fits. He doesn't look like a kid stuck out on the wing for some minutes, does he? He looks like he's ready. Absolutely, yeah. I mean, look at the way he carries the ball. The second goal was actually the one. Everyone was kind of waxing lyrical about the first goal. I think the defending was comedy defending. He hardly had to shuffle the ball to score. The second one, there was two gossamer touches, like just little grazes with the outside of the boot to set himself and then just stroke it into the far corner. So the kind of composure and the technique to do that for someone that age is extraordinary.

23:38But you're right, he just looks like he's ready. And everything Arteta is saying is true. To be ready is one thing, but to be ready to cope with the physical demands and the relentlessness of the Premier League and modern football is another thing. so he will be managed carefully but you won't be able to hold him back for much longer. Yeah, the touches and the balance are extraordinary watching it. The ability to go off both feet, the ability to see the path and weave his way through to goal. I loved him in the first goal, he actually beats Victor Jokeres. Jokeres is like in the way, it's the lump and he actually beats his own player because he realises he's got to get past him to goal and on top of all that you see mentally he's somebody with I don't know if protagonism is the right word but somebody who wants to make an impact and dominate and is ready to do that and I watched his goal against Everton last season, I watched his debut in the Premier League and the minute he got on the pitch he wanted to be on the ball, he wanted to make a difference and that's a quality beyond the technical qualities that's hard to find.

24:42So much about being that top level player is that, it's the stuff in between your ears, I always say this and it was interesting even and Tyler Dibbling in this week, this round of fixtures too, is someone who is a really quiet lad. You read Paul Joyce's piece on the website today. And I think Alan Irvin it was saying like, we've said he's been here a year. He's quiet. From this summer, he's finally looked like he's comfortable in the environment and he's ready and he belongs. And you've got to take your chance now. And he had a brilliant game. Yeah. But that's a different kind of character and personality.

25:16Max Dorman, like you see any clips of him, He's cracking jokes with the first team players at 15. He's got confidence. He knows he belongs at that level. So that's what marks out the very best players as well. Yeah, Martin. I was going to say that, I mean, and from the very start, I was told a story that all of the lads who come up with Max Dowman said that he'd go across to the senior team, he'd go across to train with the senior team and they would be doing their training and every now and then they'd look across and they were all nudging each other going, have a look at Max, he's just made Gabriel look darn.

25:54Really? You know, have a look at Max, he's just put William Saliba on his backside. And so from the minute, what you actually also notice with Arsenal, the senior players want to play with him, don't they? There's no suggestion of him sort of being on the fringes and he comes in when there's no other option. I mean, he's one of the first passes people are looking to make, is to bring him into the game. They know what they've got. Yeah, hugely exciting times for Max Downing and Arsenal fans. Plenty of other action in midweek. I wanted to just pick out Liverpool's win against Tottenham for two questions.

26:32Johnny, just starting with you on Tottenham, much discussed on this show already this season alongside Manchester United. So just one question to you. There seems to be a chat developing around Tottenham, both on social media and amongst the fans. I know that it's either oh God this is all more of the same we're going to be 17th again or there's signs there that in some more weeks and more training and more it's coming you were there on Saturday for the Everton draw it's a funny no he doesn't mention before I can even finish asking the question should we just move on should we just leave it there no yeah we've got plenty to discuss We could just leave it there, John, if you like.

27:17They're not going to be 17th, right? They've got a really good coach and they've signed some better players. But they're not going to be top six either, which I think is what a lot of people are predicting for them. And what really struck me on Saturday was just the sheer level of investment they've made and the commitment to this top coach and£350 million worth of signings. And they haven't got a number nine and they haven't got a number 10. And it's like, how can you do that? and then you're also looking at people like Savio and Marmouche and maybe Fernandes and I've said this before and maybe the formal expression is difficult to exactly find because I'm saying on here at the start of the season and I said they'd be outside the top six that they've signed good players but not great players that's probably not quite right it's not even great you don't have to sign great players they haven't signed very good players I don't know They sign guys that are decent.

28:14Maybe players. Yeah, nearly players. You can't say that they're bad footballers. Maybe you sign one of them and have them as a project to get to that top level, but you don't sign three or four of them and expect... I don't know, watching Savio and Marmoush, you could just see that's why Man City let you go. And you can see what you've got, but I can see why they let you go. Yeah, well, and more money coming as well. Tom Olnott reporting another 120 million. So Martin Samuel, as you say, that's probably two shot in the dark players signed in January. And that's what it is now. And that's what it is.

28:47We will see. Speaking of very good footballers, Dominic Sabozlai with another lovely goal. Gregor, you mentioned your list of players who strike a ball really well. Rhys James, Trenner. He's got to be in there, hasn't he, Dominic Sabozlai? Yeah, I think he's moved up into third place. Into third place. Just one question on him. Is he the perfect modern midfielder in that he can play everywhere? Or do we not realise how good he is because of his versatility? Thoughts? That's a good question Could both things be true Tom? Go for that Set yourself up for that one We were talking about this briefly before we came on here I was interested to hear him say that he sees himself as a box to box number 8 where a lot of people like to see him playing as a number 10 Some people like him as a right back Well I don't think he does That's the main thing He has the capabilities he used to be that all action player but do you take away a bit of what he offers at the top end of the pitch and those kind of particularly he's shooting from distance I remember doing a piece when he just signed and he scored a rocket and it was like he scored a lot of goals from outside the box even at Leipzig before so like he's got a sweet sweet strike so if you put him in those positions you're going to get some goals Thoughts chaps?

30:00Martin? Yeah I mean look he can easily play number 10 for Liverpool and your problem with that is what do you do with Florian Virts and how long do you keep trying to persevere with Florian Virts before you go well he's a really good player we know he's a really good player but it's just not working in the Premier League with him whereas it works in the Premier League he's a great Premier League player he absolutely gets the league and gets what is needed Johnny Liverpool's issue I mean look he's first of all he's so versatile he's wonderful technically and he's attacking though basically he's attacking in his nature and Liverpool's problem is they've also got McAllister who again isn't really a defensive player versatile midfielder but primarily attacking both of these could play number 10 and then you've got the Verts issue and even Gravenberch is morphing into something more attacking so Liverpool's issue is balance in that area and Sir Bozlai is maybe the one out of all of them that he'd always play because of the impact he makes.

31:09But he's also, they haven't found the right balance to make the most of him. Yeah, really interesting. Liverpool face Chelsea in the next round. Fleetwood Arsenal as well. Maybe the pick of the ties, Manchester City v Norwich completing the League Cup action tonight. Also, we've had some live Europa League action. Crystal Palace take on Lech Poznan tonight. Bournemouth make their European debut. But Sunderland were back, back in Europe after 53 years with a 1-0 game that if you hadn't watched it, you'd think, oh, that was tight, that was tense. I'm here to tell you, it was absolutely crackers.

31:38It could have been about 4-3. And Sunderland certainly embodying, Gregor, the kind of excitement of the evening, potentially with some of their first half defending where they seem to just leave one person at the back and slightly forget that, you know, a win would be quite important. Yeah, it was an incredible goal of action. It was extraordinary, yeah. And the fact that it was settled by a penalty as well. Yeah, you'd look at it and go, well, that was boring, wasn't it? It really wasn't. Some of the chances, even when Broby was running through at the end and shot and then it fell to another player and then it walked on the goal light and like, my God, how are you going to get this ball into the net?

32:11So, yeah, and as you rightly say, AZ had some chances themselves too. But with a great atmosphere and great Tifo at the start and the energy inside the stadium was magnificent. So, brilliant for some of them. Martin Hardy summing up really nicely with his match report on the Times website that you can read and also kudos to Enzo Le Fay for stepping up at the same end as he did against Arsenal and missed and putting it in the same corner. Good ticker from him, I'd say. I've got to like that a lot. Loads more still to come in part two. We've got a little quiz question. Martin Samuel's favourite part of every show to take us through to the break.

32:40Dominic Calvert-Lewin became just the second Leeds United player to score in five consecutive Premier League appearances at Ellen Road. Who was the first? Find out after the break.

33:15We'll be right back. Exclusive stories, expert analysis and groundbreaking investigations. Find the story wherever you get your podcasts.

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34:15Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. I'm Tom Clark and I've got Gregor Robertson Johnny Northcroft and Martin Samuel with me Gregor Robertson straight in we barely even got to the break with the answer to the quiz question about consecutive goals for Leeds players at Ellen Road Gregor who was the first Mark Viduka Mark Viduka Gregor's favourite one of your favourite personal cult heroes of all time he's in the list of five you've interviewed him now you don't have to be embarrassed we're close six in a row for Mark Viduka between March and August 2003 just to mention another big story on the Times website like Todd Bowley agreeing to sell his stake in Chelsea and end his involvement with the club.

34:52Clear Lake completing a deal worth£1 billion to buy out the American billionaire, as well as co-owner Mark Walter, Matt Lawton, with the latest on that story on the Times website now. But let's go back to some of the football. It's been a huge week of live action and it'd be easy to sit here on Thursday and almost forget Leeds United 4, Newcastle 1 at Ellen Road. Leeds up to third, unbeaten in four. Gregor, they're a team that we've slightly danced around on the show so far this season, but they are a team that you said you were very excited by in the pre-season. That excitement's justified, it seems.

35:24Yeah, they started brilliantly. All the things that kind of, they became last season, like really hard to beat and defensively sound and kind of smothering of opponents a lot of the time. They're one of the best pressing teams in the league now. It's still there, but they've added a bit, seem to have added a bit more kind of attack and thrust and swagger and I think the players I said this last season I think the players just sort of midway through the season sort of realised that they belong at the level and you can see that in their playing On that idea of the players and you say adding players and things and obviously Harry Wilson was a big signing on a lot of money but on the bench for this one coming on he's not necessarily like they've signed Harry Wilson and stuck him at number 10 and he's pulling the strings you look at that team and it's James Trafford aside a lot of players that were there last season in this age of spending The defenders, Murahimevic as well has been really good.

36:19But there's still a core grouping there. Absolutely. To just jump on your point about players who have had the time, have stayed in the Premier League and are now going, we can do this. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. I mean, James Justin was one of the best signers of the season last season. So versatile. He can play, obviously they play wing-backs. He can play left wing-back, right wing-back. Here he's playing on the right side of a back three. But he still steps forward and can join in in attacks. Bogle, that made him an infinitely better player to change to a three-man defence and allowing him just to be a wing-back who attacks and attacks the back post, which we spoke about a lot when Leeds...

36:58He was always turning up at the back post to get goals for Leeds in the Championship when they were in promotion. And Ampadu, actually, someone I doubted a bit at the level, he's proven himself to be a real leader and a good midfield sort of, you know, solid base for Leeds. so a lot of positives I remember skirting around Dominic Calvert-Lewin the other thing was can they keep him fit and the header was a thing of beauty like there's really no one better in the league than Dominic Calvert-Lewin attacking a delicious cross by James Justin I think it was beautiful goal one thing I found funny about this is actually you watched the game and Newcastle started quite well they were really kind of keeping leads in their own half any time they tried to come forward they would lose possession it was like the first 20 minutes or so they were Newcastle that's what Newcastle do as well they're trying to press them to death but then the goals came like the first goal obviously had two deflections I think Tanaka second goal Calvert-Lewin third goal Calvert-Lewin again game over and each like Leeds by that point were rampant so you got to give them a lot of credit but the game kind of it was a funny start Newcastle started well we'll come on to Newcastle with Martin in just a second but Johnny lots of the things we mentioned there ultimately come down to good management doesn't it from Daniel Farke.

38:15Oh, yeah. Yeah, and actually at the end, he went a little bit down the pepper, didn't he? He was coaching Ampadu and Justin because of the late goal. I think he wanted to get the clean sheet. Is that the ultimate sign of either panic or confidence when you're a manager? You know, we saw Deserby do it with Tell and now we've seen Farke do it. But when you've won 4-1, it's confidence, isn't it? I mean, I think Jürgen Klopp once said that he was asked who he'd like to be stuck on a desert island with and he said Pep Guardiola and Daniel Farke. Really? He did, yeah. Yeah, him and Fark are mates. Right.

38:47And actually, I think Fark's, well, I've interviewed Fark, I interviewed him back in January and I could see what clocked me. I mean, he's such a fascinating, funny, really intelligent bloke. He told me that when he was like in his early 20s, I think he was a third division striker in Germany and he started writing a novel because he was also interested in philosophy and stuff. Right. And I said, you know, was it any good? He went, no. Nonsense in my head. You know, everyone has over their 21. But, you know, he said he had long hair and, you know, you could picture him. He talked about that was in the interview where he said that he's, you know, 5 % fire beast and always will be.

39:31I just, you can see he's got a connection with his players. We talked about the players improving. That's a great sign of coaching. He's connected with the fans and he's harnessed Ellen Road. but I was also at the City game where he went to three at the back and he went two up front and started playing a few more crosses. And I remember the post-match press conference because he was kind of slightly defensive. I think one of the local Leeds reporters, basically the question was, well, why haven't you done this before? Because it clearly works. And he said, oh, if it was so easy then, anyone could be a coach.

40:06But actually he stuck with it. and one thing I did pick up from interviewing him is that he's got a lot of principles he says you know I play dominant football and he did that with Norwich and Leeds in the championship and he said in the Premier League because I haven't got one of the best teams I've got to play a different style and what I really picked up was he's pragmatic as well as idealistic if that makes sense he wants to dominate an attack but he will I'm not even sure three at the back and big man up front is really in his kind of taste but he'll do it because it works although we should say it took him a while to do it there's a reason the general asked that but also the two seasons with Norwich he didn't really the second one he did a bit they spent more money and they tried to adapt but the first season remember they were labelled naive so like it's been a journey for him but he's got there eventually personality and pragmatism seems to be working for Daniel Farker but Martin I wanted to ask you about Newcastle they were subject to of one of your columns this week about how this performance may be hinting at the club being in a slightly worse estate than we thought maybe during the summer.

41:16They had that win at Tottenham, lots of people saying, great, Icelandic tactics, et cetera. Your thoughts on Newcastle? My thoughts on Newcastle, which with the column, if you look at the numbers around Newcastle, they've had 79 shots against them. they've got 36 or 32 attempts on goal 39 and that's only um behind coventry and uh aston villa going towards the bottom of the table so it was always going to happen that one day all of the shots that they're conceding and all of the shots that they're not having it was all going to come together and and you know sooner or later that will catch up with you and that's what happened at Ellen Road on Monday night.

42:02Leeds took their chances in a way that other teams that have played Newcastle so far this season haven't. And Newcastle's sort of pop-gun attack couldn't get them back in the game. Plus, you've got this sort of spin around the place, this Newcastle two-spot-zero that their chief executive keeps coming up and keeps mentioning. It's just a load of corporate nonsense, Newcastle 2.0. What is Newcastle 2? Selling all your best players. That's Newcastle 2.0. And he can say about, oh, they've got to be a trading club, which is Ross Wilson. But this is Chelsea. All of this is, is Chelsea in black and white stripes.

42:52It's the idea that you buy in cheap and you either sell very high or they come into your first team and help. It's a real, as Chelsea discovered, because they were 10th last season. Yeah. That's a really hard one to pull off that. Yeah. I could remember the chairman at West Ham saying that Glenn Roder was going to be a manager in the style of Arsene Wenger. Everyone wanted a manager in the style of Arsene Wenger. There was one guy in the style of Arsene Wenger. His name was Arsene Wenger. Unless you had him, you were stuffed. And it's a bit like this. It's this idea that, oh, we're going to buy cheap, sell high, develop players, they're going to be the best.

43:32Because no-one's ever thought of that before. No-one's ever thought of that before. Everyone's sitting there going, oh, what have we been doing? What have we been doing? We should buy a load of cheap 21-year-olds and then, you know... We've been buying high and selling cheap. Oh, no. Some of them have been. As much as the second goal was a thing of beauty, it came from an error by Sean Stoyer, 18-year-old midfielder from Ajax, I think it was. Just passed the ball straight to Leeds on the edge of his own box. The third goal as well, Dominic Calvary-Lewin just walks through a challenge. There's some serious individual question marks there.

44:14To come into as a teenager or as a 21-year-old and try and boss it. These guys are playing in positions where you need to boss the game. Very hard to boss the game as a 20-year-old or 21-year-old who's just come in from another country and suddenly you're LMO'd on a Monday night. Good luck. The only thing I'd say is I like Geisler. Although there's clearly been flint. Martin Hardy wrote about this last week too. Let's not get carried away. There's serious cracks in this facade. You can see what he wants them to do. At the start, in the first 15, 20 minutes of this game, James Trafford could have been robbed twice by Ibiza because he was pressing relentlessly.

44:58There was one where he almost kicked in, deflected into his own goal. You can see what he's wanting them to do. It's early days and they have got some young players who are going to take some time to acclimatise. I think there's been positive signs as well amid the obvious worries. But there was one of the other things that got said in that interview with David Hopkins and the Chief, was that they had 176 names in their... What, for the manager's job? Yeah, for, you know, they were looking through... And that's a good thing, isn't it? I was just about to say, that is not a good... You know, that's the sort of thing someone at corporate level thinks is really smart, or he went through 176 names.

45:35You go, yeah, Man City approached a bloke who was already actually in a job at Chelsea and said, this bloke might be leaving at the end of the season. We're not sure if he is or not. Yeah. If he is... You're our number one choice. I don't know. Call me Mr Picky. I think that says a lot more about a club with a firm idea of where it's going. I remember Ed Woodward doing an interview about how he revamped United's scouting policy and he brought data in. I think they looked at something like 13 ,000 right-backs and then signed Aaron Wan-Bissaka. We've got our head in our hands before I even asked Greg Orozen about VAR and the latest developments on the pitch with refereeing.

46:18Howard Webb talking about the mistake in the Manchester derby. I thought it was quite interesting what he said and how he phrased it and talking about the officials in the game. He talks about, you know, the VAR gets super focused on Haaland. He establishes he's onside. He thinks that's a good goal. Haaland's not offside. But of course, when he runs it back through the full APP, he doesn't fully evaluate, etc, etc. It made me think about, and I was discussing this with a colleague of ours, about refereeing and personality. And the idea that, you know, when I was growing up, Pierre Luigi Colina was one of the big referees.

46:56And it was like, well, he's a bit scary, isn't he? And he's no nonsense and all this kind of stuff. And referees used to and still do at EFL level have personality. They sometimes make absolute clangers, but it's, you know, oh, God, he always gives out yellow cards in the first half. now we're reduced to ladies and gentlemen Red 22 with an outward arm movement in a forceful direction blah blah blah that's just a thought of mine you can pick it up if you want to or you can talk about Howard Webb but just to give us a brief conclusion Johnny I wanted to start with you yeah look we've created this as a world by deciding that we need VAR and that we need refereeing to be almost mechanised right Howard Webb didn't create the lack of personality that's what anyone who's ever pushed for VAR has decided.

47:41Refereeing used to be something that we all accepted was a subjective performance by the guy in the middle who had to call it as he saw it. And I totally agree with Martin's column a couple of weeks ago or days ago, whatever it was, about VAR. I've been saying this for ages. The game's better without it. On Howard Webb, there's nothing he can say, right? No. It's a mistake. It's also the most blindingly obvious mistake that everyone can pile in, everyone can laugh at the referees because it's such a glaring mistake. I can actually understand how it gets made because we've all, I don't know, tried to leave the house and forgot our keys or whatever.

48:22Sometimes you just, we're human beings and we make stupid mistakes where we ignore the absolutely glaringly obvious thing. And you can say, yeah, they're trained, they should be better. They're human beings and they're going to make these mistakes. clearly the processes that were put in place to try and stop this happening didn't work and that's something for them to look at but I actually think and this is probably a deeply unpopular opinion I think the refereeing standards are actually quite good in England I think Gregor's you'll have knowledge of the work that it takes to be a referee in these days these guys are running 15 kilometres a game they're keeping up with players in the fastest league in the world it's never been more complicated with the number of rule changes I think it's getting better but then something like the Manchester derby happens and it's easy for everyone to go it's a disaster and then you get clubs piling in opportunistically like Arsenal to say where's our apology you've got Maresca don't blame him he's playing to his fan base but where was our apology for what happened in 2023 so it's pile on season but I actually think Howard Webb does a good job when refereeing's getting better but shoot me Phil is that how we get rid of VAR then we start praising referees for their on-field performances well Matt Donoghue I think could be the exception to what Jolly's just saying there because it's a fearless man you said that about a few people yeah I said that about a few people but if you look at Matt Donoghue as a VAR there's been he was the guy that called the ref over in the Manchester United Everton match and showed him a piece of film that wasn't the guy pulling Ashley Young's shirt you know which was the reason that the penalty had taken place.

50:07That was him. He was the guy that advised that Norgard had topped Jordan Pickford when if you looked at the replay, the ball is absolutely at knee height where Jordan Pickford is and Jordan Pickford gets the ball first. So Norgard... I mean, there's been a few. There's been a few with Donahue. but I just don't see what the point in the big public apologies are and stuff like that. Look, I can see how the mistake has been made, but I do find that one, he got laser focus, is a little bit, yeah, well, I was watching the film, but I wasn't actually looking at the bloke who was clearly interfering with play and taking Lissandro Martinez completely away from Hartman because he was wild.

50:59You can't do it. I mean, it's a really bad mistake. It's a bad mistake, yeah. I agree, because also the thing about this is that there are so few incidents in football that are sort of definitively right or wrong, and this was one of them. This wasn't really subjective because... And the minute they put the rule up on the telly... Sorry, I'm not nearly... No, no, no, no, no. The minute they put the rule up on the telly, everyone who's sitting there watching at home goes... Yeah, and the pro-ref tweet saying he didn't head it, It's like, well, that's not what the law says. You're misquoting your own laws.

51:35It's bad. It's bad. My biggest fundamental point about why this whole concept is flawed is that instead of, like, giving us, you know, rectifying human errors, it's given us more opportunities to make them in ever more elaborate and previously unthinkable ways. So that will never change. stop saying it's not the technology it's the people using it it's wrong you're wrong it is the technology could you have a VR voice of God that is over that is over everything that when when they're about to do it it goes you've messed this up look again you've messed this up yeah but also the other thing is it allows us to keep talking about it because hardware goes on mic'd up and then we get this and then we get you go to you go to you go to a game in the football league You're angry about it for about 12, 24 hours after it, and you've forgotten.

52:30I don't even think you're as angry about it for that long. Your lot are winning 6-0, that's why. Anything. You just move on. You're right. You're right. And one of the contributory factors is we get annoyed at VAR because it takes so long, so we ask them to speed it up. And you listen to the audio, they rush through that decision. They can't win in that VAR situation. But I'm not going to defend... But it's too many hours. So what's the other guy doing? What's the other guy doing if he's not saying, mate, Fernandes? Just quickly, the other thing is... Final word, because there's a couple of things I want to mention before we report.

53:09Just at Howard Webb as well, his response to it, talking about the tunnel vision, and what we need to do is put processes in place that make sure the VAR is pulled out of that tunnel. We don't need more processes. I'm sorry. People talk about the process is the problem. it's not it's the technology itself yeah really really interesting to see how many more times we will talk about VAR we've got to wrap it up for today but a couple of stories I wanted to mention that we might come back to into the international break that we're coming to Raheem Sterling admitting dangerous driving on a motorway before crashing his Lamborghini in May still only 31 I couldn't believe that Raheem Sterling is a world he should still be playing football now without a club and wonder what the future holds for him Maybe we'll come back to that story.

53:57Martin, your Sunday Times column in the England talent drain and the Ballon d 'Or is an interesting final note to end on as we head into an international break with some huge games for England. Just a quick summary, if you don't mind, from you on that idea, because we're about to hear an England squad from Thomas Tuchel. 2018 to 2024, the Premier League had a double-figure representation in the Ballon d 'Or. On two years, I want to say 2019, 2022, they had half of the list came out of the Premier League. We're now down to five. The last four seasons have declined each year. So last year was six.

54:42The year before was nine or something like that. And before it was 10 or 11 or whatever. So it's this steady decline. And it's not a case of, oh, our league's not strong. We know the league is strong. You can see our results in Europe and you know the league is strong. But our league is increasingly, the star quality that was there in the Premier League is beginning to ever win. You know, Salah, Kevin De Bruyne, all of these sort of guys. And I know they're not easily replaced. I think it's a worrying sign because as great as the fact that Hull can beat Manchester United is are we saying we wouldn't want to see Laminya Mare playing?

55:28Are we saying we wouldn't want to see Vinicius Junior? Are we saying that Harry Kane doesn't feel like a huge loss to us? That we would like to have seen Jude Bellingham for more than one season at Birmingham City? and that's what I wrote about. Richard Masters keeps saying there's no drain, there's no talent drain, but there is a talent drain without a shadow of a doubt. A guy like Riyad Mahrez to be playing in Saudi Arabia, the season before Riyad Mahrez, everyone says, oh, he was over the hill. No, he wasn't. The season before he left, he made as many appearances from Manchester City as Jack Grealish.

56:07They were neck and neck. He alternated the two, Guardiola. We had Myers was a loss to Ali. We had Myers was a lovely player. Fabulous. And so it's that. And I just, you know, we're down to five. And I want to say three of them are defensive-minded players because you've got two Arsenal centre-halves plus Declan Rice. And so the only two forward players we've got in the Ballon d 'Or list this season is Erling Haaland and Bruno Fernandes. As we mentioned earlier on the show, Bruno Fernandes is linked with Saldi-Arabia for some as well. Yeah, and as you mentioned, Harry Kane and Jude Bellingham are playing elsewhere, which does lead me nicely on to just a final note from you, Johnny.

56:50Normally, I can be a little disparaging about an international break on this podcast because it can throw up some challenges for both editors and journalists in terms of it being a little bit quieter, some of our readers and listeners thinking the same. But not this one, Johnny, not this one. If we could have written it, if we could have prepped it for Thomas Tuchel to come off the back of that huge seismic Argentina disaster, and have the first game back against the world champions, you couldn't have written it any better, could you? No, it's great. I mean, look, imagine the opposite if they were going into a qualifier against Latvia or something like that.

57:23It would be so flat after the World Cup. I think it's great. I think the Nations League is really important to England. They've got to try and win something. It would help psychologically break that duck. We saw the psychology at play in that defeat to Argentina. Something's got to change. It's a chance. it's like the League Cup basically for a club. Might not be the biggest trophy, try and win it. To start against Spain, then go to Czechia, Croatia, away games and in a really sort of tight schedule as well. It's pretty good and the squad announcement is going to be fascinating to see how much of the World Cup squad is still there and what's different.

58:05Yeah, we can keep up to date with the latest from that squad announcement from Johnny and Matt Lawton on the Times website tomorrow. And with all the latest from England across the next couple of weeks. But we'll leave it there for now. A jam-packed show. Martin Samuel, Johnny Northcroft and Gregor Robertson. Thank you very much for joining me. Thank you too for listening. We'll be back on Monday. We'll see you then.

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