What is 'value' in this crazy transfer market?

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0:40Hello and welcome to the Game Football Podcast from the Times and Sunday Times. Chelsea are off to a winning start under Jabby Alonso after a Cole Palmer inspired 3-2 win against Fulham. And this Chelsea looks like it could be fun. As UEFA call off their threatened boycott of FIFA tournaments we'll be asking if FIFA's president Gianni Infantino can still survive and as another£100 million plus transfer nears completion we'll be running our eyes over all the latest deals and asking if the Premier League is losing its mind I'm Gregor Robertson and joining me on today's show we have the Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Martin Samuel the Chief Football Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times Jonathan Northcroft and the former Chelsea and Marseille striker and Times columnist, Tony Cascarino.

1:27Guys, great to have you all here. Martin, in particular, after so long away. Yeah, so long away. Are you still with us, Martin? Yeah, yeah, just about. Just about, mate, yeah. Back in a£100 million plus transfer. Yeah, yeah, I'm not here next week, though. Are you not? No, no, I'm not. Back on holiday? Yeah, on holiday next week, yeah. Okay, well, good to have you here. Back with us. worlds of transfers and transfer market debate to get into in the second half of the show but I always like to start with the actual football you agree? I think Chelsea it's your show you can start with what you have it's my show to joke all week I mean go Tom I'm in control right we're starting with Chelsea Fulham because I thought they were a lot of fun I've obviously been a bit critical of Chelsea in the past but there was a lot to like about Xabi Alonso's first outing Johnny yeah I loved it I mean it was a great opening weekend and that was probably the best game of the lot, really.

2:21Had everything. I think you could see that Alonso is going to... He's going to be attacking. He's going to be intense. He's going to bring something different to Chelsea already. I mean, it made me think of Ruben Amarim, as many, many things do, because I've still sort of like defuddled and angry about Ruben Amarim. But no, just that whole hype around the Amarim project. Oh, this 3-4-2-1. It doesn't work in English football. and, oh, you know, poor old Ruben because he's got this magic system and it just doesn't work in the game. That's nonsense. It's how you enact a system. It's what you do with a shape on the pitch.

2:58And you could see Chelsea in that same shape, just playing a completely different way, playing in the opposition half. Lots of quick connections between the players. Players are actually close to each other. I really like that just from a watching point of view, but from a coaching point of view for a first outing. Really impressive. And then, you know, the biggest, most obvious thing is seeing that front three, which was magnificent in that match. And seeing Cole Palmer re-energised, one of the best sites in football. But also seeing the connection with Morgan Rodgers and João Pedro, who also, like Cole Palmer, looks like he's got something to prove after the World Cup snob that he had.

3:37At the back, at the other end of the pitch, obviously, there's a lot of work to be done for Chelsea. and I'm sure we'll talk about the goalkeeper. But I said it last week, I think they're after Arsenal, you know, certainly contenders for second. I think they're going to be a really good team this year. Agree, Mart? Yeah, I like Chelsea. I think they're a top four team. They've got players to come back. I mean, the defence was a little all over the place against Fulham, but that isn't Chelsea's defence, is it? You know, the new signing, the full-back name escaped. There's so many new signings. A couple of weeks, I'll have everyone's name.

4:15Yeah, yeah, Palastri. You have to spend your holiday. Yeah, yeah, you do. I mean, so Palastri, who will play either right wing back or left wing back, and then you've got Haytoe, then might move to sitting in the half. And there's a lot that... It wasn't bad, actually. I like it. I think he's getting a lot better. And he's not Mark Cucurella, but Mark Cucurella wasn't Mark Cucurella when he first came to Chelsea. there was about the first year with everyone going, oh, 50 million quid, set fire to here. So I think that back four, five, I think that gets better. If they change Sanchez for Martinez, I think that makes a huge difference.

4:58The rest of it, as John said, the front three look tremendous, look as good as anything you're going to find in the league. And it would be nice, you know, I was speaking as someone who's got Chelsea fans in their immediate family. It would be nice to sit on the sofa and watch a Chelsea game without everyone being furious around me. I've got enough problems with West Ham as it is. So, you know, I don't really need to take on Chelsea's problems as well. And it's quite nice to see a team playing football that, you look at the money that Chelsea have spent, that's the sort of football you should be playing.

5:35That's what your team should look like. They should be a team that's good to watch. To spend as much money as Chelsea have done and to end up quite a dull pedestrian team, that's a complete failure. So this looked good. This looked good. Gus, best front three potentially in the league? Yeah. But I said to you last week, they're going to be fun, Chelsea this year. And I always judge teams on how they get goals. And I always put the number. And I've chatted to you before, Gregor, about this, about how many bodies get in the 18-yard box. If you're getting two in there or one, you're not going to score many goals.

6:10But when you get four, five, maybe even sometimes six, there's problems for defenders because they've got to pick people up. And Chelsea are getting way more bodies. I saw a number of games in pre-season, bodies into the 18-yard box was the big difference for me. And Fumphrey are loving it. You can see straight away. Yael Pedro could have had at least two on the night. You know, he could have. And you're looking at Cole Palmer. Is it coincidence that he suddenly… And look, we know he had injuries last year. But is it coincidence that there's a little bit more freedom around him? Because when he gets freedom, and if he's doing his twists and turns, he loses the ball and he hasn't got a manager going nuts at him.

6:45Because, by the way, Maresca sometimes did do that last year because I was behind him in the dugout. But, you know, losing the ball in certain positions. And he knows he can. And they'll recover. Morgan Rodgers just walked into the team and it felt like he was playing Villa for left side for Villa at his very best. How much does that kind of friendship, You saw them afterwards having the interview and they were best friends since they were kids who came through to Man City. Have you ever experienced that in any dressing room? Andy Townsend, Andy Townsend. We were in the same team as the 11-year-olds.

7:14Then we were together at Chelsea and then we were together at Ireland. Yeah, I mean, it is true, but he was part of the reason why I got to Chelsea from Celtic. Okay. Because he put a word in that Chelsea had an injury with Kerry Dixon and from nowhere the deal came about and Andy said to, you know, like Ken Bates and he was the captain and said, look, Cass will do a job for us, you know. Is that tapping up? No, but he knew I was available. I was speaking to him and him. Good. I'm not saying he was on the phone. Yeah, absolutely. Exactly. On international duty as well. It is literally rife. And the people are gaffer fancy.

7:57I mean, the Manchester United players that come out of the Republic of Ireland, You know, he turned up, you know, you had Dennis Irwin, you know, you had a good few. And even before that, the likes of Stapleton, you know, it's an international tour. You wouldn't believe how much gets crossed, you know, in conversation. But going back to Chelsea, you're going to see a lot this all season, the way they play, their dynamism. It's going to be hard stopping them and their problems are obvious. I can't tell any Chelsea fans or us in football that we all know what Chelsea's problems are. It isn't scoring goals.

8:33So how have they let it come to this? Pete Rutzler wrote a piece about this idea about Mike Pender's coming through. They have a lot of faith. And actually, there's kind of underlying there the support of Robert Sanchez last season having had quite a good season, despite the fact he was dropped at periods of that season. But, you know, you've spent the best part of£2 billion. How can you leave yourself with a goalkeeping issue? I mean, my theory on this has always been those Chelsea owners love trading, right? That's what they do. And the goalkeeper market just isn't as lucrative. So, you know, they've been very clever at buying those, I think you've been writing about it, Martin, those 20 million pound players, midfielders or whatever, wide players, and then turning a profit on them.

9:14whereas the fees for keepers and this is just I haven't spoken to Chelsea about this but this is just what I observe fees for keepers are much more static so they just don't seem to have been as active or as interesting I know they've bought lots of young goalkeepers but in terms of like trying to get first team goalkeepers they just it's hard to showcase them as well as much you can maybe play some players in the cups and give them inflate their value but it's hard for a goalkeeper yeah exactly but when you think about the business they've done in every other area of the pitch since taking over and you compare it to what they've done at goalkeeper They've not really tried in terms of senior goalkeepers.

9:46So I don't know. That's what I think is going on. But maybe they just think Robert Sanchez is incredible and they've got data that none of us see beyond our ken. If I was being cynical, it's almost as if, until they actually put that last jigsaw piece in place and go, right, there we go. They're not expected to do it. You know, at the moment, everyone is still saying, oh, Chelsea, top four, or, you know, they could do what they could. Why? Well, because they've got this glaring weakness at goalkeeper, and so no one looks at Chelsea and says, this is a team that should win the title. This is a team that should be winning the title, and if they don't win the title, they've fallen short.

10:35Everyone looks at it, and it's still the work in progress. Yes. Once they get Martinez, you've got Xavier Alonso as your manager. Martinez, you've spent$2 billion or whatever it is, you know, on players. Well, now someone is going to turn around and go, well, we want to do what we used to do under Roman Abramovich for this. And, you know, it's almost, I'm not saying that it's a deliberate thing, But it's almost semi-consciously as if, like, until we do this, we can hide behind the work in progress. Because there's a lot more pressure when you're no longer a work in progress and someone says, right, you look at Arnie Slott last season, Arnie Slott gets the bullet because no one is having Liverpool as a work in progress.

11:24Even though they spent all of that money on new players, you know, no one was buying, oh, Liverpool work in progress. as they've won the league the previous season, everyone thought, right, well, we should be winning the league. And when they didn't win the league and, you know, spent a lot of the season going backwards, man gets a sack. It's a weird one, isn't it? You look at goalkeepers and you think Arsenal done great business, Raya, bringing him in, instrumental in them winning the league. You think of, you know, Schmeichel before, you can think of Alisson at Liverpool, Edison at Man City, Cech at Chelsea, the importance of these great goalkeepers.

11:58and at the moment we're in a bit of a weird world with keepers because you know we joked there and said about looking at data on goalkeepers how in hell is he still the goalkeeper and I'm not making him a scapegoat on that he's the if you've made that many mistakes because he has it's not just last this week against Fulham you know he's made a number of mistakes every Chelsea fan will tell you every pundit will say the same thing about Sanchez and he's not even that incredible with his feet. No, well, when he missed on the ground and you're, I'm thinking, why have so many people got the blind spot on him as a keeper?

12:38You have to, if you're centre forward and you get chances and you miss, you'll eventually be taken out of the team. If you keep missing, same for a goalkeeper, if you make mistakes, you should be out of the team and he's somehow kept his place. Like I said, we're going to talk a lot about transfers in the second half of the show, but it's impossible to talk about Chelsea without talking about transfers it's always something going on and you wrote up this week again probably in the same sort of theme as you've just mentioned about moving from a bit of a project to a team that can challenge this whole idea about them still potentially selling Enzo Fernandes to Man City and filling a rivals hole or a need it's not that they can't replace him you know because they're talking about Alex Scott and Zari Alonso might look at Alex Scott and think well I fancy him more than I fancy Enzo Fernandes that's all a matter of a that's all up to the manager.

13:29It's the idea that you solve a problem for Man City because I know Fernandes is not Rodri, he's not the same player at all, but it allows them to set up in a way that covers for Rodri a bit more. It allows them to play Elliot Anderson in a certain way. And you just think, why would you do that? Why would you? I keep going back to looking back at, say, Tottenham And that period when Tottenham sold their best player to Manchester United virtually every season, Michael Carrick, Berbatov, and wondered why they were permanently fifth and Manchester United were permanently first. And you go, oh, because they needed a centre forward and you sold them your centre forward and solved their problem for them.

14:14And I just don't understand why you would solve Manchester City's problem. At the start of the show, and that's what I said in the piece, at the start of the window, okay, if you can get a load of money from Manchester City, they haven't sold Rodri yet. So you're thinking, we'll sell them Fernandes. We'll get someone we like as much as Fernandes. We don't know that Fernandes and Rodri are going to work together. We get an awful lot of money as well. Yeah, that all makes sense. But now we all know what Man City's problem. We saw it against Bournemouth. Everyone's looking at it going, oh, Rodri, they really miss Rodri.

14:51They've got Mark Gwehi in central midfield, for God's sake. They really miss Rodri. And then along come Chelsea. You say, oh, we'll sort that one out for you later. So where do they sell him, though, then, Mark? Who do you sell him? There's only a number of clubs who can pay that fee. Yeah, but that's if you do sell him. If you do sell him. OK, well, we'll talk more about transfers. That's a good point because it's not part of this market. as the Premier League operates in its own world. But Tony, I totally agree. But it's, whether you do, it's, I just, I said it was a six-pointer. Yeah. Right?

15:26And that's what it is because you've got Man City and Chelsea and so that makes Man City stronger. It makes Chelsea slightly weak. So it works like the old six-point game. You do it if you don't think he's as good as the other club do. No, that's true. And Chelsea, I've had him for a few years and, you know, maybe, what, they haven't taken the final step with him in the field. Maybe their judgment would be, you know what, this is a bit of a hospital pass for Man City. I don't know. Yeah, mate, you could be right. You could be right. That would be the only reason. Okay. What about Fulham, Johnny?

16:00You cited them as one of your teams possibly at risk in the preview show. There's probably some evidence to back that up, but also some positive signs as well. Yeah, they were better than I expected. Partly Josh King was so good. He just looked like he's really made that leap. And, you know, I think he's a big contender for the England squad when it comes out next month. But I didn't see, it didn't change my opinion on Fulham. It made me think they might actually be more fun to watch than I'd expected. But they, I don't know, how many games are they going to win? They still looked a bit porous at the back.

16:40A conspicuously new manager in the Premier League. They, yeah, as I say, better than expected, but ultimately lost the game, will lose quite a lot of games. And it's how they stick with the new manager and the project in those circumstances. Okay. Other opening weekend thoughts, Martin. You wrote another column this week saying basically, place your bets if you dare, because more than any other, you know, we're talking about still a lot of movement to happen in the transfer market between now and Tuesday. After the World Cup, that was all delayed. And it seems that even more than ever, we don't really know what teams are going to look like until Tuesday.

17:24I think, yeah, I think that the World Cup has thrown everything out of kilter, really, because there's so many, you know, it's such a, so much of a longer tournament now. And there's so many players that aren't properly fit. And then you look at a result, like say, let's take Brentford 3-Tottenham 0. And Brentford looked really good. Brentford looked really good. If there's two sort of bankable teams that you look at in that first week, one is Arsenal, that Arsenal are going to be good. And two, that Brentford are probably going to be, once again, pound for pound, you know, the best team in the league in terms of their expenditure or whatever.

18:00Their recruitment is so smart. You look at Sanger, I think, gee whiz. You know, like every single elite club must be looking at that and looking at their dialogue to a football and thinking, where were you, mate? Missed that one. Why didn't we know about him, you know? But anyway, but that Tottenham team, what have they got there? They get beat 3-0 and everyone's going, oh, the same old Tottenham. But actually, it's not the same old Tottenham because they've got three, maybe four players in that team that will be in their team when everyone's fit and available. Once they've done all their recruitment, once people have got back from the World Cup.

18:40I mean, Moresca described, he named about four or five players in the Manchester City team. The big ones, you know, you're talking about Haaland and players like that. And described them as still in pre-season. You know, and they're playing Bournemouth at home. Bournemouth are a decent team, Bournemouth are a good team. They're going to cause you problems. and he's talking about half of his starting line-up being in pre-season. And that's all I meant with that is that I can't think of a season where you're looking at this first round of games and thinking, well, I know the point of having a bet is that you go early.

19:20You take an early prize if you can. But on this one, you're just looking at it and thinking, we don't know. Aston Villa. What the hell are Aston Villa going to look like? seven days time. Yeah. You know, compared to that first day of the season, I don't think Brighton are four goals better than Aston Villa throughout the entire season. No. It was a mad for me. The early game, you had Manchester United versus Hull, okay? They were at Hull and for the core. That's going to be a big story over the weekend. And then at 5.30, you've just seen Tottenham. They get done 3-0 at Brentford. Then I'll go to Brighton on the Sunday and think, well the two big stories are going to be Monday morning then I'm 4-0 a bit of a 4-0 down after literally half an hour half an hour yeah and could have been by the way it was only because Brighton took the foot off the pedal it was nothing else he could have gone 5-6 pretty quickly so the whole story of the weekend I said last week and I did I just think it's going to be a load of goals this year I don't think goals galore I just don't see there's so many teams that look like they're going to have an attacking sort of set up to the way they're going to play and Martin is right to talk about the Villa and what team will they have next up they could have at least eight different players in that team so I just think it's going to be more of that for the next couple of weeks Johnny you you wrote a feature last Sunday actually about you know there's obviously nine new managers in the Premier League and you think there's still actually a kind of although you know we've just said goodbye to Pep Guardiola he's been the kind of guiding hand for so many years but you feel that there's more of an influence of Jurgen Klopp still being felt and you see the sort of style of football in the Premier League Yeah, yeah I think that's the direction of travel we saw last season where you strip away the set pieces which were a different subject and they were one of the big changes but the other big change was just the return to directness move away from possession Man City themselves under Pep had their lowest possession for five years and their fastest sort of rate of attacking because they went with Semenyu and they were trying to play early at the Haaland so even Pep was starting to move a little bit away from that style of football and i think what you're seeing is coaches are being brought in who are intense who are who play quickly who go straight to goal like like klopp like to do also just that that that charisma that klopp had i think is being is being felt when it comes to teams recruiting managers and who do they want to put in front of the fans if you say to the fans well this guy's a bit of a jrgen klopp fans around the country are pretty happy so i do think that plays a part as well but I think we sort of I think Tony's right there'll be a lot of goals this season I think what we saw in the opening weekend was teams not wasting much time apart from Man City under Maresca sort of you know going sideways and square trying to trying to the counter press is really big you know winning the ball back and going straight to goal in Klopp style I think we saw a lot of that and we'll see a lot of that throughout the season and hope I think it could make a great season we could have that without the set pieces which would give us a lot of entertainment I think it's so interesting the point you made as well that it might be perceived as easier to play the clock way than to play the Guardiola way but when you looked at some of the matches at the weekend you're thinking yeah it ain't easy to play the clock way because you've got to work so hard you've got to work and you know you looked at Tottenham you looked at Manchester United you're thinking you're not working hard enough you're just not working hard enough you're not you know you're not running about enough basically I know it sounds very very unsophisticated but there was a lot of that with Klopp there was a lot of keep the energy high run about you know tear into them there was you know it looks easy but it's not easy well you look at Tielemans and Santos in midfield from Manchester United and they clearly looked undercooked and whatever they'd done since the World Cup I mean Tielemans come out they come out the last 16 was it last night yeah 16-8 you know Some of them would have gone away, come back, and not much time to get themselves back on great.

23:30I mean, we've done it a couple of times, Gregor. I'll say more than a couple of times. Pre-seasons. After a World Cup, unfortunately. No, okay. If you look back at pre-seasons, you always feel like the best pre-seasons followed with a really good season. I always felt that it was money in the bank for me. As in, I felt great, Nick. When I had injuries during pre-season and come back, I was paying catch-up with everybody. and I felt I paid a price for it especially at Celtic listen about Celtic the better at the moment Tony anyway mate we don't want to talk about Celtic no not today what the hell was that what the hell was that look one of the advantages of being in this chair is you get to decide now we're going to move on after the break we'll be as I say we'll be talking and talking about some of the big transfers that have happened in the last couple of days and more to come.

24:28Bradley Barcola looks like he's on the verge of completing£120 million. Transfer those five goals straight in the Celtics' net. That was the... £120 million move from Paris Saint-Germain to Liverpool. So, in that theme, I'm going to ask a simple question after asking a ridiculously hard question on Monday. Who was the first€100 million player? Find out the answer after the break.

25:21We'll see you next time. scale, digital precision, post-read authenticity, and performance data that proves it worked. Don't fight for attention. Buy it with ACAST. Learn more by visiting acast.com slash advertise.

25:44Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Jonathan Northcroft, Martin Samuel and Tony Cascarino. Before the break, I asked the quiz question, which was who was the first 100 million euro player? Johnny, you were in there. It was Gareth Bale. And the reason I remember that, I remember the story at the time where I think in pounds, the fees were Cristiano Ronaldo had moved the year before for 80 million. And because the exchange rate had changed, then the Bale one was worth 85 million which was 100 million euros but Real Madrid had to hide that because Cristiano was going to get upset if Gareth Bale or anyone cost more than him so they they had some formula where there were add-ons that they announced but in reality he cost more than Cristiano.

26:36Neymar was the first that crossed the 100 million pound threshold I think when he went to PSG in 2017 and Jack Grealish was the first £100 million player in the Premier League in 2023. Now they're happening every other week. If you're a central midfield player and you're not £100 million now you're phoning up to your age. What's with me? A schoolboy that Man City have signed for£85 million for one season or something. He's a good player by the way. Yeah, he's a very good player. So what's happening? As I said, Bradley Barkola we believe is on the verge of completing a£120 million transfer between PSG and Liverpool.

27:15There was Elliot Anderson, there was Morgan Rodgers, Enzo Fernandes still could. Are we inflating a bubble here? Is the Premier League operating in its own universe? What's happening, Marta? Yeah, well, it is, isn't it? Because you're not going to get those figures. None of those players would get those figures in any European league other than this one. So it is our little bubble. And the going rate, it seems quite bizarre what the going rate is now. Like every central midfield player is 100 million quid virtually. There's certain transfers that are taking place and you cannot work out what has De Lapp done, what has Liam De Lapp done in the last year or so at Chelsea to virtually double his fee.

28:09You're thinking, well, you know, all he ever does, all I ever see him do is smash his elbow, you know, smash straight into the defender, get himself booked and not score. That's nothing like that. Yeah, but you did score. No, but the, you know... One Premier League goal. One Premier League goal. And Tonali, right? And no one mentions Tonali. Tonali's a£100 million player. Have a look at his goals and assists last season. They're virtually non-existent. And he's playing for Newcastle. He's not playing for Muggs Newcastle. I mean, I know they didn't have the best domestic season last year, but they're far from Muggs.

28:45Doesn't create a goal. Barely creates a goal. But doesn't score a goal. 100 million quid. It's a weird one. No, I was going to say it's a weird one. The only way you can be worth 100 million quid, if you don't score and you're not great, you're great and scoring, is if you're N 'Golo Kante. And he's not N 'Golo Kante. No. Either. Just on the fees in general, it feels like, and I'm going back now, I'm getting a bit nostalgic about it, is that if you didn't play well in a season, your fee didn't go up. People would pay less for you. Now that you can have a difficult season, I mean, Nico Gonzalez is going for 50 million now.

29:24Okay, he didn't play a lot. I don't remember having that much of an impact at City. And he goes for 50 million. And it feels like there's a few of them where they've not actually played that well the year before, and yet someone's prepared to go, oh, well, we'll give you that for him. You know, not a forest pound 45 for Liam DeLapp. He might prove to be a great signing. It's a big might, by the way, because there's a lot of evidence you'd be like, well, I'm not so sure. He's got to improve a hell of a lot. I think there's also, like any market, scarcity values are a big element. so with strikers and there's a dearth and yeah it's obvious that that's why liam de lapp despite his one goal in in 12 months how many other english striking versions are there that there's a cachet to that even nicholas jackson spends almost two years on the bench but again there's a lack of uh viable number nine options and then i think with central midfielders and it partly relates to the style of play thing we've been talking about because the game's now getting stretched and it's so quick everyone's looking for those central midfield players who can cover the ground who can somehow stop counter-attacks and and and maybe attack as well so that's why you're seeing the tonalis and the elliot anderson's fetching a huge premium so it can't there's an unreality to every market i suppose in the sense that it's so it's a market conditions that set a value and the actual worth of what you're buying it's like houses isn't it it's set by the environment as much as the thing itself and i think we're seeing that with players at the moment so let's look at a few of them um i think we'll start with some of the more eye-catching ones for the same reason about value so savio savinho in brackets 75 million rising to 85 million that's an extraordinary amount of money for a player getting so little output over started Well, first couple of games, everyone's looking in going, oh, they've got a player here.

31:26And then after that, it's sort of tailed off and you couldn't get in the team. And suddenly he's 85 million. So bad he has to change his name. And yeah, he doesn't even know who his name is. I mean, look, you know. No, I was... There's two parts to this conversation. I mean, yes, there's the value aspect. Spurs are approaching the best part of£400 million if you throw in Omar Marmouche whose loan will be they have an obligation to turn a permanent for£60 million next summer clearly you can look at the value but you also got to analyse what this is doing to Spurs squad so like how are will those two players make Spurs better do you think Johnny?

32:12will they make them be able to compete for the kind of level they want to be competing at? yeah I said this last week when I didn't fancy Spurs for the top six, like a lot of people. I don't think they've signed any bad players, but I think they've signed players that are kind of in between bad and elite, if you know. They're not bad. They're not near bad. But they haven't signed the elite, is what I'm trying to say. I think they've signed that slight tear down and I would put both Marmouche and Savio in the same bracket. Even Tonali. I mean, Tonali's maybe the best of signings, but like Fernandes, like Van Hecker, they're just not quite top.

32:47The problem started the year before really have gone to some of the money that Liverpool spent and went crazy and went over £100 million a couple of times so other clubs have been caught up and it's mainly the big six it's not really involving anybody else is it? No because Brentford aren't suddenly spending£100 million They've got£42 million haven't they on Cigari I think there's one other thing which is the Premier League is still unlike let's say La Liga it is a market where the money goes on fees and not into players' wages quite to the same extent and you see that with Avini Junior where you know he's he was kept at Real Madrid on a wage so far beyond what anyone could pay in England so I still think that's partly it as well the money's being spent in between clubs rather than going into players' pockets I mean people might go well you know so and so earns 400 grand a week but that's still small compared to the top wages elsewhere Are you Buadi Manchester City?

33:44Martin is someone I think you would have seen at the World Cup from Morocco He saw him play Brazil in the very first game and he looked very, very good. Didn't always look as good as that. He's very, very young. It's an enormous amount of money to pay for a player that young. But everyone was saying he's the next cab off the rank. He's the best teenager. In a few years' time, it might seem money well spent and it might seem, And, oh, yes, you can see why they did. In a few years' time, you could be looking at it and thinking, well, that was a hell of a gamble. It's a much bigger gamble than City usually take.

34:27They've done a couple of things this summer that are gambles in the way that Guardiola and Cheeky Beguristan didn't gamble that much. You know, you think of the players that they pulled out of when it got, you know, 50 odd million for Fred and they suddenly went, no, no, no, no, we're not doing that. You know, when Harry Maguire got to over 60 or 70 or whatever and it went, right, no, we're not involved. It's not a financial gamble though, is it? You know what we just talked about? If Borelli doesn't do it, they'll still get a lot of money for him and his age obviously will play a part. So it's more that I totally agree to gamble on him being 18 and being put into the team.

35:14Yeah. But more than financial because... Do you not think that that one has got an 85 is such a ceiling? It's not like they've... It's 40 million and, you know, you can be a Man City for two years and increase your prize to 60 million or not very much. You might have said the same about Enzo Fernandes. This is an interesting point to bring back in now is actually that Chelsea, with the sales of Jackson and the lap under Blueco, so four years of their ownership, and now sold a billion pounds worth of players. Sold a billion pounds. So we all talk about the amount of, the amount that they spend, which is IWATR, and it's almost double that.

35:53But the model in its own way is kind of just about turning out to show that it's working, Johnny. Financially, yeah. Not in a sporting sense. Not in a sporting sense. I think they do too much trading. I mean, Aberdeen are in exactly the same category. We've done it all the way again. But when you keep having like 20 players in, 20 players out or 15 in, 15 out, what are you going to build? You know, I was looking at the bench at the weekend and there's Jamie Gittins and it's like, oh yeah. He was part of the winger churn last year when Madueke goes out.

36:27But financially, yes, they are good traders. They're not making many sort of value mistakes and they've definitely learned the art of selling at the right time. It's just how you square that with a sporting need to build a settled team or settled squad. And yet you look at other deals. Let's say Trossard. I know he only had a year left or whatever, but look at him last season. Six goals, six assists. I know assists can be deceptive, but six goals, of those six goals, two of them are the only goal of a game. One of them that beats Fulham, one of them that beats West Ham. Massively important goals for Arsenal.

37:0817 million to go to Bichita. And you think, that doesn't seem 17 million for that guy, who we've seen be very important to a team that's won the title. And 85 million for Savio. You look at that and think, that seems totally disproportionate. Nothing makes sense in the market. I mean, even if you take Minter at Brighton, you know, in and out of the team at Brighton, and there's all about Liverpool, 50 million. And he's injured. Yeah, and he's been injured. And he's injured, by the way. And hasn't had his bet. I mean, I like him as a player. We all do. If you go and watch him, he's a real handful.

37:44Yeah, I like him. Again, I don't know if football can make sense of what's going on in the transfer market. A lot of moving parts as well. I mean, we'll come to Aston Villa now, and Saudi Arabia's emergence, and they're willing to pay 50 million pounds for Ollie Watkins at the age of, I think, 30. That's another kind of dynamic at play as well now. What do you make of Aston Villa, Tony, now? I mean, we've talked about this a lot because they're going, oh my God, they're ripping the heart of their team with Dini, Rodgers, Tielemans and they lose Conson. You go, it's getting worse. Then Watkins looks like he's off.

38:19Martinez might even be off. That's really all of the spine. Well, he's not going to be number one. So that's, if you're a World Cup winning goalkeeper, it's very unlikely are you going to start the football club? Okay, and they've lost a huge amount of experience. The last two standing really for me would be Matty Cash, who's still there, and John McGinn. I don't imagine that any of them two are going to go. But it's a problem for Villa because he's going to have to rebuild. I mean, I sort of know a little bit about the Oli Watkins stuff that's been going on because Oli's been on a – when Steven Gerrard bought Dinja, Dinja was on way more money than Oli Watkins for the three-year period he was there.

38:53Now, Watkins probably had his nose by our joint, especially as he was very vital to Villa. And the reason why he didn't play at Brighton or not want to show up is a bit deeper than just a fallout. It's a bit deeper than that. But Unai Emery's got the biggest challenge he's had since he's been at Villa. And I do expect him to change it around. But you can't keep getting rid of players in big numbers who have been vitally improved. It's like saying tomorrow, we go, take Arsenal. We go, well, Rice is going to go. Reyes is going to go. you know or whatever all big players for you you go we're going to go we're going to move on from there that's really hard to do I think you can see the pain that Unai Emery is going through at the moment you know in the interviews and press appearances because that's a guy that's performing at his maximum that's a guy who over three four years at Villa has like knocked it out of the park so I guess as a coach if you're doing the best you possibly can and yet the club for whatever reason and I don't think with Philips owners by the way it's a lack of investment it's a lack of the ability to invest because of financial fair play but when you're doing your absolute maximum and yet you keep getting pulled backwards by losing players see they've been there before when they lost I think Southgate Etiog the keeper Man United goalkeeper Poznic they had about four or five goals and they went that way very quickly.

40:24And they did it later when that sort of Gareth Barry team didn't they that got broken up Milner. Do you think you know anybody will accept this though? No. I mean the thing You might have wanted to have done it the year before. You never know. Yeah. The club has been built internally around him. You know he's got his mate in his sporting director and he's got another mate in his football. And they're sort of designing things like the salaries and stuff like that. You know they've got a lot more he's got a lot more say at Villa than contemporaries at other clubs. what he's never done in his career and few really have because it's something that happens in English football more than the continent is stay at a club for five, six, seven, eight years and build Emery's been a three year four year manager succeeds moves on and this is new territory for him I suppose the last point this conversation then Martin is the is the kind of spending rules because you look at what's happened to Villa this summer and Newcastle two teams who have come closest to kind of breaking into that, you know, the elite, want of a better word, and now being dragged back to earth.

41:30And yes, and before you say it, you've written about this for a long, long time. I was going to say, what I should do, I should have it put on a record. I should write about it, shouldn't I? I should have it put on a record, and then when these questions come up, I can just drop the needle on it, and you can just play it. Go on then, off you go. Look, mate, look. Some of it is so unnecessary, because Aston Villa and Newcastle, they do have the wherewithal. The club is not in jeopardy. They're not going to – you know, I can understand rules to stop clubs getting into financial trouble and everything, but Aston Villa and Newcastle are not going to be in financial trouble.

42:10They have got good revenue streams. They have got good income. and increasingly what you're looking at is if you became a big club before these rules come in, you're always going to be okay. Manchester United will always be okay. Arsenal will always be okay. They can not win anything for two decades and as soon as they get it half right, they will have the capacity to get it properly right. Whereas if you weren't a big club before the financial rules came in, if you start to get it right, then there is suddenly this glass ceiling that you hit up against and said, oh, no, no, no. You weren't big enough 20 years ago.

42:55So there you go. This is your glass ceiling. And then everyone says, oh, it can all be done organically. No, it can't because everyone comes in and raids all your players, which is what's happened to Aston Villa. What happens to Nottingham Forest and what happens to all of these? Newcastle and all of these clubs. So that is a fundamental problem. I'm banging on about it to no avail for many, many years, but I'm not going to stop saying it because I know it's right, that in the end I've never been against having some financial rules and some financial controls. You've got to have that as a protection.

43:32But these ones actually work against the ambitious middle clubs, basically. The ones that weren't big when the Champions League was first minted. You know, the modern kind of... If you weren't big before these came in, you've got a real problem. There is a glass ceiling that doesn't exist for Arsenal, Manchester United and Liverpool and clubs of those size. Is there a solution, Johnny? Well, I think the new, the changing regulations are, if I understand them correctly, there's a bit more leeway with the move to squad cost ratio for owner investment. A bit more. It's more of a halfway house. But would I be right in thinking this is the first year of the accounting cycle of squad cost ratio?

44:21And so we're in a funny period where it's the kind of last year of the old system. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Last year of the old system. look you could unpick how football operates both politically and financially and solve it but without doing that i'm not sure because as martin's alluded to part of this is being legislated by very richest clubs who would rather like to stay in the position they're in and it's happening at european levels as well isn't it with the eca aston villa's big problem is not so much the premier league aston villa's big problem is uefa all of their channels are linked more much more to complying with UEFA regulations at the moment than the Premier League ones.

45:01Yeah. I mean, I interviewed Francesco Calvo, who arrived at Villa last year from Monaco, and he'd worked in Italy as a new kind of head of, they divided the sort of football side into business and football ops. And his remit was to bring in more money, bring in, you know, get the revenue in that's going to allow this Villa expansion. but there's only so much you can do on that side. And all his ideas, you know, getting a sponsorship in the city of Birmingham and, you know, bringing the officers into the training ground at Bodymore Heath and not that... It's scratching the surface. Yeah. You know, he's a bright man, but what can you really affect?

45:42There's only so much you can do with Aston Villa. There is, you know, because it's Aston Villa. That's what they're finding with Newcastle. Newcastle are a very big club in Newcastle. You know, and that is the problem that they will have, that the ownership will have, that it's very hard to make Newcastle or Manchester United because they haven't got the European pedigree and all of these things. Now, with so much American owners and they must have franchises, and I'm not big into American sport anyway, but surely they get competitiveness, don't they? They still have big clubs like the Dallas Cowboys.

46:19And things like the draft, mate. They have things back to draw. How do they manoeuvre through all these financial issues? Is it just football that is blessed with this, you know, you're going to be held back? Well, they tend to be sealed kind of environments, don't they? They tend to be sealed leagues where you can't drop out of them franchise-wise and nobody regulates from the outside. So you don't have Europe, as in the UEFA, sort of putting their top ones in. So handcuffs on football in Europe then, is it? Well, it's just a different system, isn't it? Because we want merit. We do want promotion and relegation.

46:53We want all of that. But what happens in America is you don't. And then the owners get to create all the rules. Again, we don't really want that either. We want some sort of... And then the final thing is, I suppose, they don't really have a transfer market. The money goes straight into the players, which is a different way of paying... I'll give you one of the things they do. You tell me if you ever see this coming. If you buy a New York Yankees cap or a shirt or whatever in Philadelphia, who gets the money? The shop? Who gets the money? Because it's not the Yankees. Oh, it's not the Yankees.

47:26They get all of the money from the Yankees merchandise sold in the New York area. Anything that's sold outside of the New York area gets split through the league. So the league, yeah? So, no, between all the other franchises. So if Manchester United, every time someone buys a Manchester United shirt in Coventry, want to split the proceeds of that 20 ways, we might get somewhere near to where they are in America. But Manchester United want the money from their shirts. They don't just want the money from their shirts in Manchester. They want the money from their shirts everywhere. But in America, that's how it works.

48:10And it's a very, very, you know, where there's no relegation and things like that. It's a totally different system. and it's really, really regimented financially but it can be because it's regimented in many other ways as well. Well, Newcastle and Villa will get a reminder of their difficulties this weekend when they face a player they've just recently sold, Sandro Tenale for Spurs and Esri Consa for Arsenal, two big games this weekend. Just finally to end the show, we've got another story on the Times website by Martin Ziegler who of course has led the remarkable story about Gianni Infantino and FIFA.

48:52UEFA calls off threatened boycott of FIFA tournaments. Cue laughter from Martin Samuel. But they do say they're going to step up efforts to remove Infantino. What do you make of this, Martin? Have they bottled it? The great bottling, yeah. Is Infantino going to survive? Mate, if this is his opposition, yes. I referred to it in the Sunday Times column last week as the great bottling will begin very shortly. And look, with the greatest respect to the Women's Under-20 World Cup, I mean, no disrespect to this tournament. But if they are not prepared to go FIFA on the Women's Under-20 World Cup, what chance do you possibly think there is of going FIFA on the Men's World Cup, the Women's World Cup, the Club World Cup, any of their absolute marquee events?

49:45What chance do you think there is of any of these countries, any of these federations being brave enough to make a stand at those very, very high-profile tournaments when they're not actually prepared even to make a stand in the Women's Under-20 World Cup? We should say England are due to fly to Poland on Monday for that tournament, the FIFA Under-20 Women's World Cup. So that's fast approaching. So this was kind of the first. We named a squad. I mean, there's not much point in naming a squad unless you're prepared to go. And that's when, you know, look, the minute it was still being held in Poland, you know, you knew that there was a problem with this idea that there was going to be a boycott.

50:27Because the last time I looked, Poland was in Europe. There's never been any suggestion that Poland were going to say, no, we're not hosting it. We're boycotting. So Poland were hosting it. And then I think it was France named their squad and then Spain named their squad and then panic at the FA, our FA, who were meant to name their squad last Thursday. And they put it back for 24 hours due to operational difficulties, bless them. So, you know, everyone was running around looking for a spine, couldn't find one. so the following day they named their squad because the one thing we're not going to do, we're not outliers.

51:08You know, when we thought we were in a gang of 50-odd or 100-odd, we were very, very brave. The minute it looks like, you know, the gang's all mizzled away, I don't see us as, you know, man in the barricades on our own. Now it's a battle and I don't fancy us in a battle. I don't think our fair or brave in these sort of battles at all. because all they actually do want to do is be on the winning team. Do you think Johnny and Fantino are going to survive? It's looking a lot more likely now than it did before the boycott was abandoned. I think UEFA have made it a lot worse by saying, we're going to a boycott.

51:47If they hadn't mentioned that, then, you know, we're going to do it through the media and politically. But by, you know, issuing the threat and then not following it up, they've weakened themselves for sure. And it was weird, the kind of spin of like, they're going to not do the boycott, but they're going to redouble their efforts to get him out. How does that go, Ian Big? How does that match to get out? Yeah, yeah. Well, you can stay on top of that story by following Martin Ziegler's reporting on The Times website. We'll be back to review all The Weeknd's action on Monday. Hope to see you then.

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