Where does Salah rank among Premier League greats?

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1:33Welcome to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. Mohamed Salah will be leaving Liverpool this summer after nine glorious years at Anfield. We'll be discussing what the Egyptians' announcement means for Liverpool, Arnest Slott and the Premier League and where Salah stands among the league's greatest. Trent Alexander-Arnold is one of the most gifted footballers of his generation but, at best, England's 7th choice right-back. What would it take for Thomas Tuchel to call up the Real Madrid star? And with just 77 days until the big kick-off in the US, Canada and Mexico We'll be taking a trip down memory lane to get some World Cup memories from three of our best writers And here they are The Chief Correspondent for the Times and Sunday Times, Martin Samuel The former Republic of Ireland striker and Times columnist, Tony Cascarino And joining us down the line, the Chief Football Writer for the Times and Sunday Times, Johnny Northcroft Guys, good to have you I'm Greg Robertson, by the way, if you didn't know already Only one place to start I think This week Mohamed Salah's heartfelt emotional announcement on social media As is the way these days Obviously his relationship with Arnie Slott was damaged earlier in the season And he has announced now that he will be leaving in the summer I'll just start off with a few stats Since joining from Roma for an initial£34 million in 2017 Salah has scored or assisted 35 % of all goals Liverpool have scored in all competitions it's pretty remarkable stat isn't it he's averaged a goal or assist every 94 minutes over 435 appearances 255 goals third in Liverpool's all time list of leading goal scorers behind Ian Rush and Roger Hunt and you know a haul of medals along the way as well Martin, what does this mean for Liverpool and more broadly the Premier League because there's a bit of a trend of some of the league's biggest stars departing.

3:31There's that. I mean, you don't replace that easily. You know, third of all goals and assists or whatever. Third of the goal involvements in that time. We can say, oh, they'll have Eka TK and Isak and this will make it easier to make that front three work. And go, yeah. but it ain't easy to replace that sort of involvement in their goals. So that's huge for them. That's huge for them. Having said that, a lot of us thought he was done in January. A lot of us thought that that would be it, this back with Arnie's slot and he wouldn't come back from the African Cup of Nations. He would just go to Saudi Arabia.

4:12But actually, the funny thing is, I think the guy that deserves an awful lot of credit in this, is Arnie Slott because he could have made this really, you know, there could have been no farewell at all. There could have just been Arnie Slott turning around and going, well, I'm not having him. I'm not having him after what he's done. You know, you sought a way out of this in January, which is what happened to several players at Manchester United under Ruben Amorim. There was no way back and that was it. And he could have done that with Salah. And he didn't. he's given him a way back he's given him the the send off that he deserves potentially his final game is the Champions League final personally I don't think it will be but potentially it is so I think Arnie Slott deserves a lot of credit in this as well Cass someone with a fondness for Liverpool what's your what was your feelings when when this announcement was made well we were in this position two years ago really when Jurgen Klopp decided he was going to leave Liverpool I felt that was going to be a decision that year as well on Salah because there'd clearly been a divide or, you know, a manager player that's not quite content with each other.

5:28And then obviously Klopp went, Arnie Slott came in, then he has a wonderful season last year. But he sort of reverted back to that this season under Arnie Slott. I'm not saying delighted, that's the wrong word. I think it's perfect timing for him to go because he's been so good for Liverpool in every way. You've mentioned goals, assists. He's been a tremendous player. I wouldn't have said he's the most gifted player, but he's always the player that seems to be a pest and get goals and just things ricochet off him. And there's certain type of goals you can think about, Salah, whether it's cutting on his left foot and burying it in the top corner.

6:06And I think every glorious moment that he's had has to come to an end this season because I just didn't think it was possible that Liverpool could go into next season with one year to go and how he's played this year because he has been, in Salah terms, very poor. If you look at him week in, week out. So, like Martin has touched on the send-off and how it will go and Liverpool fans will show their affection and rightly so for him, but I think a lot of Liverpool fans feel like it is the line in the sand moment with Mo Salah and it's good timing. Johnny what will his legacy be at Liverpool? Well he'll never be replaced he's one of those players that leaves a hole that will never be filled he will always be a reference point because nobody's going to do for Liverpool what he did that doesn't mean there won't be other great players but he's in that Steven Gerrard, Kenny Dalglish category a unique footballer the quote that caught my eye on him was actually from Pep Guardiola who said, reflecting on his battles with Liverpool, he said in those battles with Jurgen Klopp, you could prepare for everything, you could do everything, but Salah was always a weapon and in one second he could destroy you.

7:24And that's what he was. As Tony said, he's always been a slightly strange player where technically he's off the charts in some ways in terms of his close-controlled dribbling, what he does with the outside of his foot, those assists. But then he also has really untidy touches and bad finishes and stuff. But the point about him is that he's that player that doesn't always look elegant. But when a team needs something, he's been the one for seven, eight, nine years that's produced it. If you drill into the detail of his stats, he gets better against the big teams. His best games were against Manchester United, against Manchester City, against Arsenal, Chelsea, in the Champions League.

8:07He's a champion. He has that mentality. And no matter what you do in terms of the profile of footballers and you play a different way, it's that difference-making element that is so rare in football that won't be replaced. It fascinates me that it's happening now. You always look at the timing and the comms around these things. Salah didn't talk about anybody at Liverpool. who talked about the fans in his departure video. That maybe tells you something. If you think how complicated big football contracts are, to kind of change a contract so that you can leave for free at the end of the season rather than next year, which is what the original contract said, that takes a few weeks, if not months.

8:56So that tells you that this hasn't happened overnight. This is probably, I would guess, a process that started back in December when there was the eruption and he talked about the club throwing him under the bus and what's happened since has been a kind of a making nice almost in preparation for the exit, it looks quite premeditated but I'm glad like a lot of Liverpool writers have said that he will be leaving, not in that manner not in the kind of the walkout manner but in a in a manner where he gets a few more games to try and win something or try and do something else but he's he's he's been able to come back to form he's been able to share some more great moments he isn't what he was he's not the most Salah he was but he's still he's still got nearly 20 goal involvements this season even a bad or fading Mo Salah still looks like Liverpool's most effective player a lot of the time and yeah what a great player yeah can I just say one thing You know the idea of we'll never replace him, there'll never be anyone as good.

10:04I always think of Keegan being there and Dalglish came in, Torres was there and Suarez came in. And I would argue both of them cases were better than Keegan and better than Torres. Now, okay, there are examples, a couple of examples, but I don't always think it's a given that, you know, will there be anyone that never gets near to him. I suppose what Johnny says, there'll always be an icon. Yes, absolutely. Yeah, absolutely. and he was also part of an iconic front three I think it's quite important to remember that for those four seasons with Salah, Mane, Firmino it was something new too it was like this idea of a wide forward as opposed to a centre forward who was getting so many goals and assists and it wasn't a centre forward it was like a bit of a change in the landscape of how the game was played at that time No, very much so and also that it's very interesting isn't it that it didn't work for him at Chelsea And so they really, when you read people at Liverpool or you hear people at Liverpool talk about getting Salah, there was no real battle for him.

11:11There was no real competition. It wasn't like they had to outbid three or four other Premier League clubs because he was perceived to have failed in the Premier League. And as Paul Joyce wrote in his piece, he was the backup. They were going for Julian Brandt as well. Yeah, absolutely. He was the fallback guy. Sometimes, you know, the most amazing things can happen in football. You know, you think of all of the players that Manchester City missed out on under Pep Guardiola and how different that team could have been had they got the players they went for. And you're talking Harry Maguire, you know, Alexis Sanchez and, you know, Players that went to Manchester United, Maguire's come good in the end.

11:59I think Maguire's been a good player. But, you know, he's had a difficult time at Manchester United. Alexis Sanchez had a disastrous time at Manchester United. They should have been going to Manchester City. Man City were in for both of those players. You know, sometimes it's... It's like the draft in America, isn't it? Where you're number one draft and then number 30 draft works out there. George Graham tried to get Kerry Dixon and he instead got Alan Smith. And Alan Smith was fabulous for this. Leading those moments, yeah. Martin said that he thinks Arnie Slott's come out of this quite well.

12:35Where do you think this leaves Arnie Slott? And it's like a further line in the sand for an era that's in the past now. Virgil van Dijk and Alisson are the only lasting members of that squad that won so much Champions League Premier League titles. this feels like what does this mean for Arnie Slott and his future if anything obviously Gregor how the season finishes because Liverpool have been dreadful this year for a champions team to play like they have this season and end up losing what 11 Premier League games that's enormous and the way they've played Liverpool fans are frustrated they saw the Klopp era okay they were spoilt with all that but it wasn't like that in the first season of Arnie Slott you know it was a bit of a mixture which Liverpool did brilliantly well and won the title quite comfortably in the end and so I think it will all be determined where slot stands at the end of the season of have they achieved champions in football how they perform between now and the end there's a real concern of what Liverpool are have you ever said to me and I think this is for any of us to do a great column on have you ever gone three months ago and said by the way Manchester United now have got a better team than Liverpool in three months because I can't explain it.

13:50I look at it and I'm scratching my head and think, how have Manchester United been three months? You might go okay in the summer, but up until Christmas, they were nowhere near. Who are Arsenal going to be worried about next season? We're presuming here that Arsenal win the league. But whoever wins the league, who are Arsenal going to be worried about next season? I think they will be very worried about Manchester United. Johnny's squeaking there. Go on, Johnny. Yeah, no, look, I think Martin's right about how slots behaved on a human level, right? and on a human level he comes out with a lot of credit because he could have thrown Salah under the bus.

14:24He never did, you know, what he was accused of doing. I think the problem, though, is how Liverpool supporters perceive Slott these days. He won't, in their minds, this won't give him credit. In their minds, this will be another thing to beat Arne Slott with and that might be completely unfair, but what they're witnessing is the change of an era. Clock's gone. Diaz is gone. great players have gone Salah's the next one and I just think this adds to will add to a feeling of sadness and anger among the Liverpool support which seems a tide at the moment I've written pieces saying Slott didn't create these problems give him time but you feel like you're fighting against a hurricane and there's so much discontent at the moment and the story I think that will be written in fans' minds is that this is another another thing we've lost and Slott has become the lightning rod for all of that the only way he can answer it is on the pitch.

15:24What Liverpool's planning has always been was to move away from this model that you were talking with Gregor of the wide forwards that score the goals back to a more traditional model of number nines and number tens and their hope was that they could embed that this season with Salah still there move towards it next season. That's all that has to be accelerated now. So what I'm saying is the only way out of this for Slott, I think in terms of his credit, is that Isak has to work, Verts has to work. They have to find a way of replacing the goals, which will be in a different way. But I also think they have to sign someone, you know, because Salah's departure, I don't think that can be compensated with just the existing squad.

16:08So Slott's in a very difficult position for me. I'm not sure how you actually compensate for someone who is involved in the third of your goal It's extraordinary isn't it And that's obviously, this season is fewer than in the rest So his tallies kind of dropped a bit because of the season's output You know, you can't just, you know, Alexander Isak It is utterly unreasonable for him or Eketike or Florian Verts or whatever to like-for-like replace Mo Salah in terms of the numbers because you're not going to hit those numbers. You're really not. It's like those seasons where Ronaldo or Messi or whatever scored 50 or 60 goals.

16:51When that went from the team, you had to find a different way of doing it because you're not going to go, all right, we'll get another 50 goal a season striker in. Good to lose one. See, there's been a number of players that have affected Salah as well. That is like the loss, obviously, of Trent. Oh, that's huge. You've seen Diaz and his relationship with Diaz. They would switch at times. And I always used to think the tenacious players that Liverpool lost affected Salah. There's been a lot of change in the Liverpool team. And there have only been subtle changes. But enough to affect Salah. Where he's looked at times this season like he's never played at front at all.

17:27In front of goal. And we know what a wonderful finisher he is. I remember when Cristiano Ronaldo left Manchester United. Fergie's solution was to move Wayne Rooney to number 9 and it worked and he still had Tevez and Wayne Rooney was Wayne Rooney. I can't think of many other examples like Thierry Henry leaving Arsenal that was the start of a wilderness. It wasn't only because of Henry leaving but they never quite found a formula there De Bruyne leaving Manchester City were still looking at the gap they're not the same are they? He's signed good players, he's done different things but they're not the same so that yeah it is coming back to that thing this could be a process that takes a couple of years to find a different way whether they've lost no I was going to say whether slot they've lost the best right side in the country yeah yeah in a year where does he rank then I mean he's won the Premier League Golden Boot four times last season well this is just last season he recorded 47 goal involvements which is the most in a 38 game Premier League campaign 191 goals in the Premier League placing fourth on the all-time list behind Alan Shearer, Harry Kane and Wayne Rooney if you were in the Premier League era to give us a top 5 of forwards does he make it into your top 5?

18:50Martin, you first? Yeah, I think so I think he would have to I think I would have Cristiano Ronaldo in there I would certainly have Harry Kane and Alan Shearer in there then you'd probably have Thierry Henry in there and then you've got one space and that's probably Mo Salah Gus? No he wouldn't make it for me. Really? I mean he's a brilliant player but if you said well if you say Thierry Henry is number one and then you go I would say Ryan Giggs. He's won 13 league titles. You know Ryan Giggs to me is one of the most outstanding players. I'd put Kevin De Bruyne in there they would be my three most automatic players and then there's the John Terry and many others and you know.

19:28We keep it to attackers or forwards. Okay, attackers. But there's, well, Alan Shearer. I mean, we're writing off and I know he's not a finished deal, but Erland Island has been pretty amazing. And Harry Kane, as Martin said, amazing in England. I wouldn't have Salah in there. As much as my Liverpool fan I'd want to add in. If I was to add all positions, I'd have Gerrard in front of him. That's interesting. You know, I just wouldn't because I do. To ignore Ryan Giggs is like, wow, if you looked at what he's won and how long he played and all the era that he went to. It's just that I always think Ryan Giggs was ridiculous, his numbers in what he won.

20:05Johnny? I think Salah's better than pretty much all the players. Sorry, Tony, but apart from Thierry Henry, I think only Henry comes above him. Well, no, Henry's the most obvious. I think he's the best we've seen, still the best we've seen. No, I'd have Salah number two on that list. If we say that KDB's a midfielder and he's not in, And then I think Rooney and Ronaldo have got to be there. And I think probably Shearer because he did win. He won with Blackburn. Giggs was incredible, but I don't think he was ever the difference maker for United. And I'm drawn to players that decide things by themselves.

20:44And Salah was that and the other players I think were. That's why with Ronaldo, I would always have Ronaldo in there. Because Ronaldo, man, you weren't getting ahead of Chelsea. because Chelsea had a 20-goal-a-season midfield player. And so they had their strikers and they had their forwards, but they had this guy who was scoring 20 goals a season virtually from midfield. And United couldn't get ahead of that. And then they brought in their own midfield player, as he was when he started there. He wasn't a centre-forward, he was a midfield player. They brought in their own midfield player who suddenly scored 40 goals or 47 goals or whatever it was.

21:23And that takes Manchester United ahead of Chelsea. and then Manchester United don't look back in that little brief era. And that's why I've always thought Cristiano Ronaldo was so impressive. I mean, he's one of the greatest players that ever lived. So, yeah, I get that. I just, honestly, I'm astounded that Johnny just said about Salah as being that great. Of course, he's a Liverpool great and a great player. But in the top five... What did he lack, Tony? What did he lack? Well, he's won a Champions League and he's won a Premier League, yeah? I cut the Premier League so if you're looking at two Premier League titles Champions League FIFA Club World Cup FIFA Super Cup FA Cup If you said to me straight out of the bat I'd go Omri without a doubt you know he's obviously everybody's number one I would think and then I'd go straight on to people like Kane Shearer way before even considering Mo Salah that's interesting I mean it's only an opinion but to me it's like what did he lack well he wasn't and you admitted yourself off John you admitted yourself that you said he's not the most gifted sometimes you see him do things the ball bounces off him but I used to love that because it used to make me laugh is he as good as Suarez have you said to me as a Liverpool fan I'd go I'll tell you what Suarez was the most one of the most amazing Liverpool players I've ever seen and and only was there a short time and didn't win all the things but you know we keep this segment going long enough in the end we're going to be weighing him up against Daniel Stalich Tony's just thrown a massive grade in there so I'm interested to hear more about this was he as good as David Faircliffe was he better than Ryan Babel I don't know oh come on come on you're making him sound like Pele he was pretty good right okay I think probably yeah he was overrated as well I think we should draw a lane in it yeah on that bombshell Tony Caskin you don't think Salah's rubbish anyway oh no

23:22anyway yeah it'll be fascinating to see what happens with Salah between now and the end of the season anyway and how it all comes to an end it'll all be fine you see because he's now on the world's longest lap of honour if you know what I mean and Arnie Slott has already picked him so it's not like Slott is gonna has messed him about since he's come back he picked him I think the other week when he was left out at the starting 11 and that was the first time he'd left him out since he came back from AFCON. You know, whether he thanks him in his statements or whatever, on the face of it, that's all done now.

23:57So if Arnie Slott wants him in the team, we'll put him in the team. Salah will be happy to be in the team because he's on the big lap of honour. It's taken the tension out of the situation, actually. Just finally, one last question I said at the start as well. You've said this, you've argued this quite a lot, but the Premier League more broadly, we've spoken about Liverpool, we've spoken about the history of the Premier League, what about the future of the Premier League? because this is another superstar, global superstar, that's moving on. We seem to be a wee bit shorter of them than we used to be.

24:23We're certainly getting shorter of the, as you say, global superstar, those absolute marquee names. We haven't got them in the number that we had before. Mo Salo is also very important because of how important he is in parts of the world, foreign markets, that the Premier League are very, very keen on exploiting and sending the products to. And Salah was a huge draw there. So that's big. But just in the general, it's no good. I've been saying it for ages, but gradually to lose Harry Kane, to lose Mo Salah, even the smaller ones that, you know, they're not small really, they're title winning players, but say Riyad Mahrez and people like that, This little sort of, this steady little drain of these flair players isn't great.

25:19Yeah. Isn't great. You're not going to sell the league on Victor Gokovic with the greatest respect. Does it matter that they're kind of... Killed him. Does it matter that they're past their best? Sorry? Does it matter that they're past their best? If you look at Mahrez, for instance, that's one example and I've used this. When you look at Mars, you look at how many games he featured in the year, the campaign before he goes to Saudi. I think they win the league. I'm pretty sure they win the league. But he's in something like 25 or 28 of their matches. So he wasn't a bit part player. You know, we looked at it and go, oh, well, he's a, you know, we regarded him as somebody that City could move beyond because it's Manchester City.

26:00and they've got so much at their disposal that you're thinking, well, they could come in and just buy someone, buy a younger Riyad Mahrez. But Riyad Mahrez actually wasn't an old player. He wasn't finished at all. Johnny, does this matter for the Premier League as a whole? Yeah, look, here's a... Does it matter that he's 33 on a downward slope? Okay, well, look, maybe he was ebbing, but you need people to... You need the new generation. And we've just had a round of European matches where we've seen Premier League teams huff and puff, but we've seen European teams with a bit more flair at the top of the pitch beat them.

26:38And here's a question. If you said, who is the face of the Premier League globally? I think the answer now is Erling Haaland. Who's the second person that you'd put on a... You know, if you're doing a poster, Erling Haaland's face is on it, and you need two players on either side, who is it now? Cole Palmer, maybe? Is he global? He's probably not quite in that bracket. Shanna would be one. He would have been, wouldn't he? He tried to make him global in the Club World Cup and, you know, he was part of that. Salah would be one of them. If you were picking three and you were trying to sell this league around the world, Mo Salah would definitely be one of the three.

27:10No Arsenal player? No. Well, Declan Rice... It sort of would have been Saka six months ago. Declan Rice maybe, but Declan Rice... But they're not fantasy players, are they? You know, Gabriel, Declan Rice are the best players, but they're not... No, no, no, no. They're not wow players. No. No, absolutely not. Can I just add, because I'm going to be really disagreeable, so the Premier League's got to worry has it really with the amount of money they've got but do you not think the Italian League the French League the Spanish League will have bigger concerns because they can't pay what the Premier League can pay generally we've had this discussion recently the elite clubs in those leagues can so it's not about comparing so what Italian club could compete with no Italian clubs but Real Madrid, Barcelona and Paris Saint-Germain pay more to their absolute top, top level players.

28:01Bayern Munich, of course. Yeah, Bayern Munich. But if you're going generally, we're just going to go the elites. We're going to go the top three players of every team. Because I would argue that Erlen Arlen, probably, we don't know his deal and his contract, but I wouldn't be surprised it's as big as anything in Europe. Well, quite possibly, because the initial transfer fee was low, so one presumes the personal terms were extraordinary. And then he signed another nine-year contract. He might have took a cut. Yeah, they're like that, footballers.

28:35But I've been thinking about this for a long, long time now and saying this and I think we're quite complacent about our place in the world. I think we're quite complacent that this is the best league, this is the best league. And I can see that it is in terms of the challenge I can see that it is in terms of how tight it is when you think of the clubs at the moment that we consider to be challenging for a place in Europe, maybe even for the Champions League, it's virtually down to 10th. So that's good. That's good in its own way.

29:17But when you see the star quality of other leagues, and we've got through that before, we didn't have Messi and we didn't have Ronaldo for a long time. and our league did try but I think that problem is getting bigger OK interesting times for the Premier League, for Liverpool and for Arnie Slott, I'm sure there will be more of that to come, after the break we'll turn our attention to England, first of all a quiz question from Bill Edgar's devilishly difficult quiz on the Times website Which of these strikers was a one cap wonder for England? Nathan Delfonso, Leroy Lita Matt Derbyshire or Fraser Campbell?

29:58Find out the answer after the break.

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31:45Welcome back to the Game Football Podcast from The Times. I'm Gregor Robertson alongside Martin Samuel, Tony Cascarino and Johnny Northcroft Before the break I asked The quiz question about England's one cap wonders and the answer Cass was? Fraser Campbell This is a great quiz on the website Honestly, Bill breaks it down by position And they're tough, I got a lot wrong I don't want to tell you what I mean I got wrong Actually, anyway Fraser Campbell He was playing for Sunderland at the time, one cap in 2012 against the Netherlands Could there be a few one cap wonders after this weekend 35, first of all what do we make of this whole 35 man split squad idea Martin?

32:26I don't mind I think it's an original idea and I think managers are always looking in these internationals, in this particular international break, the March one they're always trying to find ways of not just having two conventional games and a load of people pull out because that's always the danger at this time of year. You've only got to look at the Arsenal situation where Gabriel's pulled out of Brazil, Timber's pulled out of Holland. Well, Eze's out of England. I think he's a couple of months out. But certainly some of the other ones, it looks like rather a classic sort of march, friendly.

33:08Do you really want to be going to that, son? I've been critical of Tuchel in other ways to do with Bellingham and everything. I do think he's boxed himself in the corner on certain things like that because we end up with not enough time really to get certain things in place. But the idea of a 35-man squad, getting everyone in, everyone can hear the manager, everyone can see what the England team is about and the England squad is about, I don't think that's necessarily a bad idea at all. Johnny you've been at St George's Park reporting from the camp this week what's the vibe been like and what do you think he hopes to learn from this camp yeah what I saw on Tuesday was I think what and it's hard to tell right you go to when you're doing media day at St George's Park you kind of see England at their best because they let you watch open training it's often the first session of a camp and then you speak to some of the players and the FA are very clever at putting up the players who've just been brought into the squad.

34:18So you get pure happiness. It was Lewis Hall, James Garner and Harry Maguire, all just full of the joys of being involved in England and the training was sharp. It looked brilliant. So going on that, yeah. This whole 35-man camp split into two is an attempt to generate some kind of internal buzz, some kind of competitiveness within the group. I think what's actually been quite clever about it is, and Martin will know this as well, that one of the things that maybe the public don't see, obviously, about international management is the stuff behind the scenes that an international boss has to do in terms of managing the clubs and managing what the clubs want for players.

35:08And as Martin said, Arsenal, the six players have pulled out, you know, Trossard, Gabriel, Saliba, Timber have pulled out of other nations. But with England, Tuchel's given, you know, Saka and Rice a week off, which is exactly what Arsenal would have wanted. And the hope is you get that goodwill back over the long run and by keeping everyone happy, it's the best thing for the player and therefore the best team for the country. The fact that Jude Bellingham's been allowed to join up with the camp and almost like finishes rehabilitation with England, Real Madrid have trusted England to be able to do this.

35:50That's the exact opposite of what we've seen happen in the past with big clubs and players. So from that point, I think the idea works. But we won't really see until we're at the Uruguay game whether it actually creates an exciting game where everyone's fighting for their place which is what Tuchel wants or a slight feeling of a B team where we're actually waiting for the next group of guys to join up on Saturday morning and the real game will be against Dupin. Don't really know. It's like a lot of what Tuchel does. It's a bit of a gamble. It's a bit of a outside the box attempt to do something different.

36:27But like Martin, I like that. I like a manager that tries things that are new and if it doesn't work, it doesn't work. It was this time of year that Venables came up with the idea of just having a training camp and said to the clubs, right, I won't play a match. And here's the deal. We're just going to have a training camp. I'm not going to play a match. I'm not going to take anything out of their legs. But everyone reports on Sunday night, and you'll have them back by Wednesday. You'll have them back Wednesday afternoon. I want them for two days, two full days and the meet on the Sunday night.

37:07And then Wednesday morning we'll have a final training session and then they go home. And if I get messed about, if everyone starts pulling out or whatever, I'm entitled to a match and I'll never do this again. It will always be a match in future. And you've got every single player that he picked. Nobody pulled out because if you're fair with the clubs, with luck they'll be fair with you. Has Trent Alexander-Arnold been treated fairly? 35-man squad and no place for Real Madrid's right-back, guy who's made 21 appearances for Real Madrid this season. Johnny, you went through this in your piece a couple of days ago in the Times.

37:53You made it at best seventh choice when you think Rhys James is first choice but he's injured. Gerald Kwanza has had to pull out as well he was called up they've got Jed Spence Tino Liveramento Esri Kwanza although he's a centre half would probably play could probably play at right back and now they've called up Ben White who's been in Exel since he walked out in Qatar in 2022 we can come to that in a minute but first of all what on earth is going on with Trent Alexander-Arnold and Thomas Tuchel No look this is the first time Tuchel's done something that have really gone, oh no, I don't get that.

38:32By and large, either agreed or at least seen the logic in other decisions. This is not, Trent Alexander-Arnold is so far away from being anyone's seventh best. You know, right by, so it's not a merit decision. Anything really. No, no, exactly. I think it's a decision Tuchel needs to actually explain a bit more. it would appear that Trent has paid for being part of the camp in June which Tuchel really didn't like where he felt the kind of balance of personalities the lack of sort of intensity in the camp disquieted him and there's a number of players from that camp that haven't played again Trent is one of them Curtis Jones is another one Kyle Walker's Kyle Connor Gallagher Ivan, Tony, you can go through them and Tuchel's so big on creating chemistry and vibe and so on that it may be that he's not blaming these players individually and that it is purely about blends of characters but he maybe needs to spell that out, I think it just leaves Trent in a scenario where it's hard to see him now getting a proper run under Tuchel and that's, you know, Tuchel's here till 2028, he'll be 29 by the time another manager comes in and England are in grave danger of one of the most talented footballers of his generation really watching an international career just passing by and that's just sad Cass, is it do you think it's, as Johnny outlined there kind of personality base perhaps or like the vibe in the camp or do you think it's because he's vulnerable defensively?

40:21I think it's probably a couple of things. I mean, I can only reference my career with Ireland and seen this at first hand where Kevin Moran and Mick McCarthy were picked in front of David O 'Leary, which was, he was at Arsenal. And I remember we played Malta at home and me and David are subs. And Ireland are beating Malta 2-0 and David O 'Leary come up to me and said, how? Moran, Blackburn, McCarthy, Millwall. I'm at Arsenal I said they went in 2-0 day you know there's not much you can say to it is it it's about the team balance but Jack Charlton also did it to Liam Brady he left him out completely and shocked us we were all shocked and Trent to me is a shock sort of leaving out because we all know what he can do in any moment in any game now I don't believe it's just personality no there's not been any of that No, I don't feel that that would be the biggest issue at all.

41:23I think it's more to do with I don't want that type of fullback, whether I want to play a more secure player. Or dynamic. Everything is straight lines, pace, intensity. He's a classy footballer. He's more like a midfielder playing a right back. Exactly. But could you argue that he handled Doku really well when they played Real Madrid and say, maybe he's become slightly better at Madrid. If you're in the Madrid side, you've got to be a top player. Of course, of course. So it's confusing. But if you've got a squad with so much depth, and England clearly always have, then you can go and do something like that.

42:01Go on, Johnny. Now, the curiosity is that, and we'll come on to this with other positions, but we're now in a mode where it's almost tournament mode, right? It's just these are the finishing touches to the squad. And one of the things Tootles is trying to ask himself, like any international manager should, is how do I kind of know what my plan A is, but how do I make a difference if plan A doesn't work? And that's why he's looking at different profiles of forwards and et cetera, et cetera. But isn't Trent Alexander-Arnold the ultimate example where, yes, you might want a dynamic straight lines fullback and my goodness, Rhys James is absolutely fantastic.

42:40So you couldn't argue with Rhys James playing ahead of Trent really because it's a style thing. but isn't Trent the ultimate guy that you could bring off the bench to just offer the opposition something that they haven't been facing, haven't thought of? A pass that they haven't seen. Exactly. A pass that they haven't seen. A ball that is coming in from an angle and doing something that they haven't seen before. A cross that you go, wow. Yeah. I can remember. This is going to sound a very, very strange example. West Ham playing Accrington Stanley a number of years ago when Slavin Bilic was the manager.

43:17And they couldn't break them down. They weren't. They were going nowhere. And Dimitri Pai gets a free kick, or West Ham get a free kick, which Dimitri Pai stands over with about two minutes to go and strikes this ball. And you're thinking, the Accrington Stanley goalkeeper has never seen a free kick come in like this one. He's never dealt with anything that has come in with that sort of bend and that sort of spin and that. And he just didn't know what hit him. Bang, 1-0 and that's it. And that was the game. And that's what you want with Trent. I'm not saying he's your man the way that Carl Walker was the man against Kylian Mbappe when we played France.

43:59He's never going to be that guy necessarily. But if we can't break somebody down and there's three minutes to go and you're thinking what we need is a free kick, What we need is some sort of attacking impetus. We need something a little bit different because they've got us. They're managing us. I'm sorry. I'm not looking. I do hope we can get Jed Spence into this or Ben White into this or Joel Kwanza into this or who else is it? Phil Neal, Mick Mills. Who else have we got ahead of him at the moment? you know you'd be looking if Trent can come off the bench if he can play one of those passes that you know got Mo Salah part of his like 33 % or whatever it is of Liverpool's goals this is what we need Arne isn't he doing that with forwards and we're going to come on to you know they've got a lot of game changers in forward areas could you argue that those are the type of players he could put on in that position mate look you know you've got forwards as well but Trent's an exceptional player he hits an exceptional cross.

45:06He hits an exceptional pass. You know, he sees different pictures to other people. We've got very good forwards. I see him through an outside of his boot right foot one day and I remember laughing and thinking, even the very best Brazilian I've never seen do a ball like he is. You just swoon sometimes the way he kicks the ball. But yeah, he's just always been in a strange sort of not really defined position. A lot of people don't pick him. A lot of managers like, with England have not chosen to have him as their first. But you do look at it and think, surely international management, isn't it meant to be, you know, one of the reasons that we've got Thomas Tuchel, we've got this, isn't one of the reasons you've got someone in like Thomas Tuchel to make stuff like this work, to find a way, rather than go, this guy is not quite the conventional right back, therefore we can't work out how to use him.

46:03hasn't that always been English football's problem you get people like Peter Osgood and Alan Hudson and we can't work out how to use him oh you know can't work out how to use this guy yeah but everyone else would know how to use him I think this is almost you know this is a kind of both things can be true moment as well because he does as I say he does things with the football that no one else on the planet can do but would you play him and trust him in the crunch moments in the semi-final whatever against a stellar opponent 100 % Gregor, just one quick point. Is he a player that could get you the sack also?

46:39No. No, but I mean, if he gets caught in a scenario in a game and you've lost and you're the England manager, I don't know. I mean, I love Trent. So I'm trying to think... Any player can get you the sack. Give it half a chance. I know, I've got a few. Yeah. What about Ben Wheat? Could he get you the sack? Just quickly. What do we mean for Ben Wheat's return? Johnny? I'm sorry. Ben this is part of the problem Ben White is well was a very good footballer a couple of years ago and he's not stopped being a good footballer but he's stopped being a footballer that plays for Arsenal regularly he's so far off what he was in 2022 when he walked out on the squad I mean there's that but there's just for leaving that aside just in pure football terms the case he's making for me is is so uncompelling you know he's Tuka's not chosen someone ahead of him ahead of Trent that's like absolute, it's not like Lewis Hall getting his chance at left back who you couldn't deny him his chance, his opportunity but this, Ben White is like you know, what, five Premier League starts this year, Arsenal second choice, right back and the first choice right back kind of converted centre half, I mean yeah fair play to Ben White, you know it would be great for him but not for me ahead of Trent okay any of you's interviewed ben white yeah johnny has i think yeah yeah he's an interesting lad i mean he hard uh he's not a normal footballer i would say he's quite deep quite quiet um quite interesting though as i say he sees things a bit differently we interviewed him about two days before he he walked out of qatar actually did a sunday newspaper session and you kind of picked it's hindsight but you picked up then that he wasn't really enjoying being away the whole lads on tour element of being away with the squad you know i mean i put in my piece but we were sort of talking to all the players at that time about you know oh the camp's great and you're playing this game's a wolf you're watching love island and saying the same question to ben white yeah what you're getting up to and he just went sunbathing and that was it uh so uh yeah Yeah, different mud Well, maybe there's Maybe more of that to come in the US Anyway, Martin, you've written a column This week as well about Well, the headline was How to solve England's back up nine problem Don't take one Can you elaborate on that a little bit more?

49:14Yes, okay It was a compelling argument Yeah, it's just the argument that There is no replacement For Harry Kane There is no understudy for Harry Kane Harry Kane is on such a different level to any other striker, English striker, that we have got, that if he was injured, surely the way to go would be to fall back on our forwards more than the idea of having a conventional striker. and to play, I mean, you make a long list of them, but, I mean, Jude Bellingham, Anthony Gordon, Marcus Rashford, Cole Palmer, even Phil Foden, even Bukai Osaka, but one of our, Jared Bowen, one of our forwards in that role, whether it's as a force nine or whether it's slightly tweaked or whatever, that that would be a better use of the footballers at our disposal than just going, we've got to have a centre forward.

50:25We've got... A Solanke, a Dominic Calvert-Lewin and Oli Watkins. Absolutely. We've got to have a conventional centre forward because I think if you ended up... And the game I keep going on about is this potential meeting with Brazil on July the 11th in Miami. Because the way the draw works, that could be the first time we, in two-course reign, that we actually play a team that we think are capable of winning the World Cup. It could be as late as that. It could be July the 11th. And if you're going into a match against Brazil with Dominic Calvert-Lewin, say, as your centre forward, because Harry Kane's injured or whatever misfortune is falling, I think you're looking at it and going, well, the centre forward is a point of weakness in the team.

51:17whereas if you find a different way of playing and you've got Jude Bellingham in there say and ask him to do what he did for Real Madrid under Carlo Angelotto if you've got Anthony Goulden in there ask him to do what he did for Newcastle and has scored 10 goals in the Champions League this season albeit 5 of them from the penalty spot you're not looking at him as a point of weakness in the team you need him to do what he has done previously so that was the point of it But it also comes back to something I always do before tournaments where you pick your real squad. And by real squad, I don't mean you pick a squad of 26.

51:57You pick a squad and you stop naming players when you wouldn't be happy if we were playing this guy against Brazil. And that's what your real squad is. 20 starters. Yeah, 20 guys that you would be happy to start a football match against Brazil on July the 11th. And the minute that you're going, yeah, well, yeah, I wouldn't fancy him at all. That's when you stop and see how many players you've got. And that's your real squad. Okay. We'll look forward to hearing that at some point, definitely. Oh, mate. The only reason I didn't name it in this piece is because... There's another piece to come. There's another piece to come.

52:38Cass, is he underplaying, as a former striker, is Martin maybe underplaying the importance or value of an out-and-out number nine in a team, an England's team? No, I think it's a real valid point because if you're going to have someone like, obviously, Oli Watkins, and then you've got Calvick Lewin. I mean, Ivan Toney's been pushed to one side, Solanke, you could look at. They're all leaders of the line, really. I know Oli Watkins is more of a channel runner and he's looking for things behind, so he'd probably be the only one that I would consider. But you are changing... You wouldn't consider a Solanke or a Calvick Lewin who could come on and their strength is in the air.

53:14Calvert-Lewin more. Calvert-Lewin is the best header of the ball out of all these strikers in England. He's got a great leap. He can get great direction on his headers. He's always had that. The last 10 minutes you need somebody to chuck on. You wouldn't take one? Well, I think if I was in a club team and think of the running, but when you're talking the very elite teams at the end of a competition, I'm not so sure that would work. Okay. I'm just not so sure. I think it's a borrowed point as well because there are so many players that could cover that sort of position in a different way you were talking about this earlier with Trent in a different way to Kane if plan A hasn't worked there you've got Rashford, Gordon and Bowen that can run in behind in the way that Watkins did in Germany against Holland I'll ask them that different question and that got England through a semi-final I think those three and then there's the false nine options which Tuchel's kind of drawn to as well when he talks about Foden but I know he also sees Jude and maybe Cole Palmer as options there.

54:17So I think the point is the number nines, someone has to be good enough to justify that slot. I guess the one other argument would be do you need at some point to rest Kane in like the third group game or whatever? And that's maybe where you need an out and at number nine. I don't think anyone's making a really compelling case. You know, Liam Dallap's not made it and Tuchel had high hopes for him. Both Dominics have had good and bad patches this season, particularly Calvert-Lewin. Maybe worth a go. I think Danny Welbeck's unlucky to miss out. I actually think he's a better player than... Yeah, I do think he's a better player than both of them, really, and that's not disrespecting them.

55:02I just think Danny Welbeck's fantastic and would be a great tourist. But yeah, we'll see. Okay. well we're hoping to take a walk down memory lane but we've run out of time so we're going to have to revisit that guys Martin Samuels written a brilliant column you can read on the Times website just now about his first trip to the World Cup in 1994 to follow Bulgaria but it sounds a lot it just ended up as following Bulgaria well yeah it sounds a lot you know it's a lot better than it sounds yeah more fun than it sounds so we'll we'll revisit that and we'll be back on Monday to run the rule over England's game and hopefully Cass, Ireland's victory against the Czech Republic, Wales against Bosnia and Herzegovina and Northern Ireland's against Italy possibly Scotland's win against Japan too Jonny, result dependent we'll be back on Monday, hope to see you then

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